BONUS Mike Birbiglia Just Called (and David Cronenberg Just Left)

Summary

Papal Conclave Shenanigans (00:00 - 02:30)

The episode kicks off with a humorous exchange about the Papal Conclave. Mark Maron reveals that he received an unexpected email invitation to join the conclave, sparking a playful debate with Brendan McDonald about the logistics and peculiarities of such an invitation.

Mark Maron [00:14]: "So first off, have you been invited to join the Papal Conclave?"

Mark Maron [00:19]: "Yeah, I just got the email."

They joke about the surprising inclusion of conservative Jews in the conclave and the dwindling numbers necessitating broader invitations. The conversation lightheartedly touches upon notable figures like Steven Seagal and Jeff Ross being part of the invite list, blending satire with commentary on religious and cultural dynamics.

Reflections on Past Papacies and Media Portrayals (02:30 - 04:38)

Mark and Brendan reminisce about the selection of recent Popes, critiquing both real and fictionalized portrayals. They reference the movie "Conclave," expressing dissatisfaction with its procedural music and lack of realism.

Mark Maron [03:28]: "The thing I hated about that movie was the goddamn procedural music. They literally had, you know, cutaway procedural music."

The discussion transitions into recounting a comedic skit they performed in 2005 about the Papal selection process, highlighting the absurdities and humorous misunderstandings that can arise within such serious institutions.

Navigating Tensions with Mike Birbiglia (04:38 - 23:45)

A significant portion of the episode delves into the strained relationship between Mark Maron and comedian Mike Birbiglia. The tension stems from past interactions and differing perspectives, leading to a complicated dynamic.

Brendan McDonald brings up an instance where Lisa Traeger made remarks about Mike Birbiglia on a previous show, prompting Mark to address the issue directly by texting Mike. This leads to an impromptu phone call where Mark and Mike confront their unresolved tensions.

Mark Maron [12:49]: "Hey, just so you hear it from me and not someone else, I was talking with Lisa Traeger on my show, and you came up, and I was honest about how I've perceived you throughout the years."

During the call, Mark expresses his long-held frustrations and insecurities, admitting to being overly critical and acknowledging the need for personal growth. Mike responds by referencing Mark's own comedy specials, leading to a moment of mutual understanding and the possibility of moving forward without letting past grievances overshadow their professional interactions.

Mark Maron [15:00]: "And he's like, yeah, you know, it didn't affect me in any way, but if I come back on, we don't have to go back through it for our whole relationship again."

The Role of Criticism in Comedy (23:45 - 31:23)

The conversation shifts to a broader discussion on the nature of criticism within the comedy industry. Mark and Brendan explore the balance between speaking one's mind and maintaining professional relationships. They debate whether openly critiquing fellow comedians is a necessary aspect of the creative process or if it perpetuates unnecessary conflicts.

Mark Maron [24:58]: "It's almost all people do. It's not just comics. Everybody talks shit. It's an industry based on it."

They touch upon how public criticism can be misconstrued as personal vendettas, especially when comedians critique each other's personas rather than their actual selves. This leads to reflections on the responsibilities comedians have in shaping and responding to cultural dialogues.

Engaging with Industry Figures: David Cronenberg Interview (31:23 - 47:14)

Towards the latter part of the episode, Mark discusses his recent interview with acclaimed director David Cronenberg. He delves into the depth of their conversation, which covered Cronenberg's filmography, thematic explorations, and creative processes.

Mark shares his admiration for Cronenberg's ability to intertwine complex themes like metaphysical violence, symbiosis with machines, and the nature of truth within his films. He recounts specific discussions about movies like "The Fly," "Scanners," and "Cosmopolis," highlighting how Cronenberg's work continually evolves while maintaining consistent thematic elements.

Mark Maron [40:42]: "I wrote this whole big page here, you know, manifesting psychic violence, physical violence, harm done by machines..."

Brendan expresses enthusiasm for the interview, commending Mark's thorough preparation and insightful questioning. They both acknowledge Cronenberg's unique position in the film industry and Mark's appreciation for his artistic vision.

Brendan McDonald [46:10]: "Well, good. I'm excited to listen to it. I know you love having directors on, and he's a top one. He's, you know, there's only one David Cronenberg."

Mark reflects on the challenges and rewards of interviewing someone with such a profound impact on the horror genre, noting Cronenberg's clarification on the definition of horror and his disdain for genre limitations.

Navigating Public Platforms and Personal Expression (31:23 - 47:14)

The discussion further explores how public platforms like podcasts can influence personal narratives and the responsibility that comes with such influence. Mark contemplates the impact of his words on his audience and the broader cultural conversation, especially when addressing sensitive topics or critiquing industry peers.

Mark Maron [30:24]: "But I still say my piece, but... there's a part of me that wishes it would even land harder."

Brendan advises Mark on leveraging his podcast as a controlled environment to express his opinions without the unpredictability of external platforms, emphasizing the importance of maintaining integrity while managing public perception.

Brendan McDonald [36:40]: "Have a good grasp on that. You don't get that."

Mark acknowledges the delicate balance between freedom of expression and the potential repercussions of broaching controversial topics, agreeing that his partnership with Brendan helps navigate these challenges effectively.

Concluding Thoughts (47:14 - End)

The episode wraps up with mutual appreciation between Mark and Brendan for their candid discussions and the dynamic nature of their professional relationship. They acknowledge the complexities of personal and professional boundaries while maintaining a shared commitment to authentic conversation and creative integrity.

Mark Maron [37:56]: "I'm pretty much a softie at heart and I think Mike appreciates that."

Brendan McDonald [38:30]: "Yeah. It's like a junkyard dog."

They reflect on their evolution as hosts and partners, recognizing the enduring nature of their collaboration despite past tensions and industry challenges. The episode concludes on a note of optimism, anticipating future conversations and continued growth within their podcasting journey.

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and the evolving dynamics between Mark Maron and Brendan McDonald. Through their candid dialogue, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the complexities inherent in the comedy and entertainment industries, as well as the personal growth that stems from navigating professional relationships.

Transcript

[Mark Maron]

Foreign.

[Brendan McDonald]

So first off, have you been invited to join the Papal Conclave?

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, I just got the email.

[Brendan McDonald]

Oh, you did? They're sending emails still?

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, yeah, it went out. It looked like a pretty large group email.

[Brendan McDonald]

Did it. Did it have any advisories on it this time? About, like, no one with. With a uterus allowed. Like, are they making precautions this time based on the last Papal Conclave?

[Mark Maron]

Well, what was interesting about it is that they. I think they mistook me for. They're letting conservative Jews be. Be part of the Conclave. So they're kind of opening it up a little bit, but not.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, they got to do that. The numbers are dwindling.

[Mark Maron]

No liberal Jews, but they're. They're all good with. You know, I think that, you know, the. The copy list wasn't hidden. Steven Seagal.

[Brendan McDonald]

He'S got good ideas for this.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah. What were some other ones? Jeff Ross.

[Brendan McDonald]

Jeff Ross. Oh, well, yeah, of course he's not conservative, but they're.

[Mark Maron]

He. I guess he. He. He is on the. You know, straddles both worlds.

[Brendan McDonald]

He's the. He's the roastmaster General. So that they need somebody to, you know, proceedings moving along. It's going to be a long couple of weeks.

[Mark Maron]

I'd like Jeff to be Pope. I think it's high time a Jew as Pope. Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

Why not? At all kinds. This is now the third Pope that I've been working with you. As the transition has happened. I was reminded that we were working together on Air America when they were picking the successor to John Paul ii, which wound up being the Polish Benedict. Yeah, the Polish Pope was JP2. Then it was the German guy who might have been a Nazi.

[Mark Maron]

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

Rat singer.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

And he was Benedict xvi, I think. And then that's the weird one where he just, like, went away. Like, he just decided, like, nat. Not gonna be Pope anymore. And then what happened?

[Mark Maron]

Did he die?

[Brendan McDonald]

He died at, like, well, after he stopped being Pope. It was a weird one.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah. Well, I guess something was about to surface, I guess.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, that's what everybody always.

[Mark Maron]

What was that great joke that Leno had years ago for. Remember Kurt Valheim when he got. What was he. He got nominated for something. There were these pictures of him in uniform, and it was the. The thought was that he was a Nazi and Leno used to do this bit, like. No, no, that was the bowling club. We're in a bowling club. Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

That was probably when he was being named to be general of the UN I would guess.

[Mark Maron]

I think that was it. Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

Well, I did. It called to mind in my memory that when we were working at Air America, we did a bit about the selection of the new Pope, which, frankly, I don't think it was as ridiculous as the movie. Conclave would have been a shorter movie. Yeah, it would be shorter and probably a little more reality grounded, frankly.

[Mark Maron]

The thing I hated about that movie was the goddamn procedural music. What? They literally had, you know, cutaway procedural music.

[Brendan McDonald]

My. My absolute favorite part of Conclave is he's, you know, conclave has a buddy who goes around to, like, his assistant who's like, you know, trying to clean up all the messes, you know, and he comes up to Conclave at one point and he's like, hey, I found out about this secret clinic in Geneva that this guy went to. And he's like, oh, yeah? Where'd you find out? And he's like, well, he canceled that trip, so we don't need to worry about it. I'm like, oh, really? Just leave that hanging there, huh? I don't need to know anymore about the secret clinic in Geneva.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, the Pope has a vagina and a cock. One of each. Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

For them to top that. Yeah, we. We might have played this before when we did the. And in fact, I'm certain we played it before when we did our look back at morning's edition, but I know not everybody's heard it, and if you have heard it, it's very quick. So I'm going to play again our segment from back in 2005 when the new Pope was selected. This was our take on it on the air.

[Mark Maron]

We have a new Pope, Pope Benedict xvi, formerly Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. Now, we actually, Cardinal Milfington, had a friend who was actually in the Vatican, which was, of course, one of the oldest mega churches, and he was there, and he witnessed the process by which they picked the Pope and was actually able to record some of it. And we got this mini disc this morning, and it's pretty powerful. And let's hear that, can we, Kayla?

[Dan Pashman]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, if I may have your attention, please. P as in Nepal. 6. P, 6. Next. O, 15. Oh, you know, I like it. Old Testament. 15. O, 15. Ah, here she come. The next ping pong ball. Here as in Ecclesiastes 8.

[Mark Maron]

Hey, I got a Pope, everybody. I'm in a new Pope.

[Dan Pashman]

Okay, bring over your card, Giuseppe. Let me check your numbers. Yeah, she's looking good. We got the new Pope. Somebody can drink up with the white smoke.

[Mark Maron]

A lot of people didn't realize that they are Forced to speak in, in Chico Marx, like, Italian accents. Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, Italian accent. A couple of cases. Yeah. And even the Ratzinger, who's German, they're all forced to speak like that because you would think that, you know, he says, I got, I'm the new Pope. You would think it'd be more of a German, you know, whatever that, you know. He speaks 10 languages, apparently. Yeah, exactly. Except, so this might have been one of the ten which was, you know, Italian, American accent.

[Brendan McDonald]

That was exactly the kind of thing we could do. Like, if we came in in the morning, we were like, hey, I have an idea. Let's do Pope bingo. Just make that in the, like, brief period of time before we got on the air.

[Mark Maron]

I assume we couldn't find the sound of a rolling bingo cage.

[Brendan McDonald]

No, it very, very, in fact, I don't know if you recognized your own voice. You're one of the grumbling cardinals in there. You're the, you're the one that went, ah, Jesus. And yes, that was, that was Dan Pashman doing the terrible accented lead cardinal running the conclave.

[Mark Maron]

I, I, it's weird. I have a hard time remembering any of that.

[Brendan McDonald]

No, I, I wouldn't remember it if I didn't have the actual evidence because it was, it was all such a haze.

[Mark Maron]

Oh, my God.

[Brendan McDonald]

Like, we really made that at 5 in the morning. I know.

[Mark Maron]

It's crazy how little I remember from that time.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. Well, now, and now we're going on 20 years, so you, you can be forgiven.

[Mark Maron]

It's like waking consciousness. It's like having a job at like six hours a day while you're not sure if you're awake or not.

[Brendan McDonald]

Well, one thing that I did want to bring up because you mentioned it on the, you know, was mentioned on the show Monday in your talk with Lisa Traeger was, and this was something, this is a little behind the scenes thing because you, I kind of went through a little thought process on. It was you and Lisa kind of taking digs at Mike Birbiglia, who we had just last week. The audience doesn't know this. We were just in the process of.

[Mark Maron]

Of rebooking him for like the ninth time.

[Brendan McDonald]

It is. Well, he has been on. I think this would be the fourth time.

[Mark Maron]

And he hosted an anniversary show.

[Brendan McDonald]

That was it. It was the, he, he did his own episode then the 200th episode was Mike interviewing you and asking questions from past guests of you.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

And then we had him back on. I believe it was when he did his, the movie that Of Sleepwalk with Me that you were in.

[Mark Maron]

Oh, really? Yeah. Okay.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, we had him back on for a short one for that, but. So he reached out to you, told you that he had a special coming up. And I don't know if that coincided with what Lisa was talking about.

[Mark Maron]

No, because it was at the Cellar, because. And I think she said that because I was there and Mike was there. It was that night that I was there, and I talked to Louis and Chris Rock and Santino was there and Bobby Lee. But when I got there, Mike was there. And I guess when he left, I said something, and that got back to Lisa, who was on that show later, I think.

[Brendan McDonald]

Oh, I see. Same show.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah. I mean, it was that night. It must have been that night.

[Brendan McDonald]

Well, I. I found that in. In trying to, you know, put the show together. I found that, you know, we would. We. It was. It was kind of like a. It was a little, to me, a little dicey in the sense that we're gonna have him on. Right. He's being booked to come on.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

And I felt like, well, it would be really shitty for him to, like, hear this second hand or third hand or just listening to the show himself and. And get, like, you know, surprised by it that you and Lisa are talking about him that way.

[Mark Maron]

Well, it was one of those things where it's like, we don't really do that stuff. So the question was, you know, what's the point of leaving it in? And oddly, it is one of the things that all of our guests, if there's ever a request to cut something out, it's always like 99% of the time they said something about somebody else. And it's just. It's just not worth the outside of, you know, feeling bad, you know, that Michael have to wake up to that. It just. It just starts shit. And usually unnecessarily.

[Brendan McDonald]

Right. And the thing that was tricky with that is, obviously we could cut out whatever we want. However, if I had cut that out, it really would have done a number on the narrative of that episode, because it really connected. Once you guys started talking about that, that was an entry point to talking about, like, how she does her comedy based on, you know, kind of her wanting it to be her own self and not a character. And it got into her special. And so, you know, we had this text chat about it that it's like, this is a little tricky to cut this out, but it's also like, what do you want to do about it? And. And, you know, it's my recommendation that you just give Mike a heads up. I felt like that would be the right thing to do.

[Mark Maron]

And then I said, just cut it out.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. You were like, well, then I'd rather cut it out. And I said, I think we'd lose too much. Like, I really do. I think is kind of is a thorny situation. So at this point, I don't know necessarily the next step. What happened from that point?

[Mark Maron]

Well, I was like, well, what am I gonna say? You know, because it's not stuff I haven't said. And him and I have hashed it out before. And despite, you know, him wanting to come back on the show, there was a point there where the tension between us was on his side. Like, just him knowing how I felt, you know, different times during our relationship and having not wavered from it much. If it comes up, he was asked to moderate that thing that me and Lynn did down there in the Village. The screening.

[Brendan McDonald]

One of the movie theaters.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah. I think Ira ended up doing it. Is that right?

[Brendan McDonald]

But he said, I did one and Josh Radner did one.

[Mark Maron]

Well, yeah, but we went out to Mike because Lynn liked Mike, and Mike said, well, I don't think Mark likes me. And I'm like, I don't. All right, whatever. But this. This weird thing that I have with him has been on and off for years.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Mark Maron]

So, you know, I didn't. I didn't remember exactly what I said, but, you know, we decided that you were going to put it in and that I should text him a heads up. And so we. We put together a text. And to be transparent, I didn't send it out till this morning.

[Brendan McDonald]

Well, but still, that was what he got. He got the text and then responded to you.

[Mark Maron]

Right. So I sent the text, which was, hey, just so you hear it from me and not someone else, I was talking with Lisa Traeger on my show, and you came up, and I was honest about how I've perceived you throughout the years. I don't think it will be surprising to you, but I also wanted to be upfront about it. And then I said, more grist for our mill when we talk. And he texted back immediately, can I call you?

[Brendan McDonald]

So that's what I got from you. I got a text from you being like, great, now Mike wants to talk.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

Like, and to me, I'm like, well, okay, but that, to me, like, that's a better talk than him texting you because you didn't give him a heads up. And him being like, hey, can I talk to You. Because why the Are you talking about me? Like, out of nowhere, just, you know.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, so. But the funny thing, the feelings I go through is like, you know, like, when you really have to. Like, now I got it. Like, you know, he's going to want to, you know, tell me, you know. You know, when's this going to end? What do you know? Like, why does this keep going? I don't know if I should do the show. And I got to listen to that, and I got to, you know, take the consequences of just saying that thing. And. And I was sort of like, maybe, like, we don't have to have him back on the show. In my mind, you know, it's just like the. And then, like, I got out of the gym, and I'm like, just literally out loud, I'm like, just fucking call him. Let's just do this. And I'm like, hey, man. He's like, hey, what's up? What's going on? Well, he's like, how you doing? I'm like, fine. And it's just a normal conversation. We literally talked, like, people who, you know, like each other for, like, five or 10 minutes. And then I kind of edged into, you know what I said. He's like, yeah, you know, it didn't affect me in any way, but if I come back on, I. You know, I just. We don't have to. We're not gonna do that, are we? Like, we're not gonna go back through it for, you know, our whole relationship again or whatever, you know, because, you know, you've had specials that I liked, and I've just. I've done two specials, and we ended up talking like a half hour about jokes and, you know, like, normal comedy stuff. Like, that's the problem with me is I have this thing that's stuck in my craw that I can't really get out, but it's not active, but it becomes active if someone's gonna poke at it, you know, and it was just a lucky guess. And my criticism of him was what it always has been, but oddly, you know, he ended the conversation on the phone. He was like, well, this new special, it reminds me a bit of the one you did last from Bleaks at Dark. It's about my dad had a stroke and dealing. And then he said, I think it's the most myself I've been ever in a special. I'm like, finally, great. We could start there. But I told him, I said, look, you can call me out. You can call me a dick. And I'll cop to it, and. Because I am being a dick with this thing, and I have been for years, but it doesn't necessarily stop it. But it hasn't really surfaced in a long time, has it? Maybe it has, and you've kind of.

[Brendan McDonald]

No, it actually has. Hasn't. I would. I would know if it did. But it's funny. It's that I. I remember a long time ago being like. You know, it was like there were. There were these incidents. 1 like. 1 was like when you were doing your Scorching the Earth special in the same theater that he was doing his show in, and he, like, invited you to come see his show, and you took offense to that. You were like, he's fucking trying to rub my nose in this.

[Mark Maron]

But you're not characterizing it, right? Like, yes, he was in that theater. Like, it was. What was that called? The Bleecker Street Theater.

[Brendan McDonald]

Bleecker Street, Yeah. Or Barrow street, wherever it was.

[Mark Maron]

Bleecker. Nice space.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Mark Maron]

In the basement of that theater was this dungeon of a fucking space that had been set up as a kind of black box, you know, workshop theater. But it was.

[Brendan McDonald]

Well, he was in an official Off Broadway theater, and with a show being, like, produced by Nathan Lane.

[Mark Maron]

I was in the basement, and you.

[Brendan McDonald]

Were in the basement of that same theater.

[Mark Maron]

And I had to live with that, you know, and the guy who was producing mine was kind of nuts. And, you know, I was all fucked up. Cause it wasn't a real show. It was just me, you know, kind of going on about my divorce. And people came, and then Time out wrote about it, and I didn't want anyone to see it. And they were like, you know, it doesn't seem like Mark has any distance from this stuff. I'm like, no, I don't. And you can't even get tickets to it. Why are you writing about it? But just the fact that he was up there, Mr. Likable, you know, with this big produce show. Yeah, it was resentment. It was just straight up kind of like, you know, fuck that guy. Why am I in the basement in the catacombs?

[Brendan McDonald]

But the same exact thing of him. Like, it's. It's. It's just repeated itself over and over again. Like this recent time where he has sent you a text saying, I did this new special, and I think you will really like it. And it's close to stuff you have done. Like, it's the same thing as that of him wanting you to come up and see his special. It's the same as him putting you in his movie playing a guy who's like, you know, an influential comic to him. Right. And it like.

[Mark Maron]

But it always, what's that but a dick.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yes. Right. I mean, like, he's not going to give you, you know, full beatification in these things. But at the same time, it's always been very clear to me that this guy, you know, wants your approval.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, it's me misunderstanding that. Like, I read it as like he's rubbing my face and something at this point, you know, arguably, you know, I'm plenty successful. I'm not going to, you know, you know, try to figure out who's more successful necessarily. But I think it was one of those things that there was something always out of my reach that I still think on some level I see as out of my reach was just really having, you know, a decisive approach and brand and tone that, you know, was, was, you know, affable and, you know, pleasant. That there was something about he being so put together in his character and him doing one person shows that were, look, they were fine and they are fine in that zone. But you know, to me, you know, I'm gonna go more towards Spalding Gray or Bogosian or. It seemed to be gutting the notion of performance art. Whatever. There was a lot of things going on in my head, but the main one being it's like, you know, this guy's got it more together than me.

[Brendan McDonald]

And also mixed with, don't, don't forget mixed with the fact that you can kind of spot someone doing a kind of performative character.

[Mark Maron]

Well, yeah, but that's always been the issue. But like, you know, I can accept that in other people and arguably we all eventually evolve one. And ultimately every time I watch him, I'm like, he's a great comic. I mean, he knows how to do it and he's funny and you know, he's a long form comic and I like that. But there's just something about the hidden ambition that always kind of bothered me because, you know, I don't know that I'm that clear on my ambition. I know that I'm competitive and I know that, you know, I come from a more desperate place than I should, but I'm just not. I don't see myself as ambitious.

[Brendan McDonald]

Well, there's lots of, there's a laundry list of people though, who kind of fall into that category that you've always kind of had an issue with because there's a few. Yeah, like Pete Hulk Holmes and, and Chris Hardwick and, and going all the way back to the. The kind of beginning of your career with this. It was John Stewart.

[Mark Maron]

Sure.

[Brendan McDonald]

And the interesting thing I found was today, before you talked to Mike.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

You were just like, yeah, this just. It's annoying that these things, you know, get compounded over the years, and it's like. Winds up being like the Jon Stewart thing. And I was like, that. You saying that to me. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hang on. This is like the. The opposite interpersonally. Like, Stuart was angry at you. You know, it felt. He felt resentful toward you because of how you've treated him. Mike is like a puppy that's like, why do you keep hitting me? All I want is to rub your leg.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, but see, I still can't. Like, it must be something about my wiring. I. I still feel like it's a little manipulative, but we had a nice conversation, and, yeah. Like, you know, when I let my guard down, you know, I have no. There's no problem with that guy. Right. And that's what happens when you're like. You gotta. When he's like, can I call you? I'm like, oh, okay. You know, why do I. I just said a thing. Can we just not. Why. You know, so. But it was fine. It's fine. And it's stupid, and, you know, I try to manage it, but.

[Brendan McDonald]

Well, I do think. Yeah, I do think it was, you know, handled well and handled in a way where, you know, you guys can do an episode coming up, record an episode, not have it be the. The thrust of the episode. But also, you know, now it's a little flavor in the mix.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah. But like, it's like, I. Why, you know, we're old now. I'm old and I'm. You know, And I'm older than all these guys, too, by almost a decade, probably. And, you know, like. Like, there's some parts of me that don't. That just sort of. They remain there, but they're not connected to anything. You know, that nothing present.

[Brendan McDonald]

Exactly. Right, right.

[Mark Maron]

And, you know, it's just kind of.

[Brendan McDonald]

It's like a vestigial limb of your. Of resentment.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah. And it just is a. It's. I don't know. It still feels good to. To talk shit.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. Well, I. I do think that was a kind of good thematic moment in that interview with Lisa Traeger, because, you know, she was saying, this is what we just like to do as comics. It's like one of the. And you both talked about, like, yeah, it's gotten me in Trouble. And like, you know, in the meantime, you had this moment, you know, the first 10 minutes of the episode where you, where you, you guys did that about some other guy. Right. Like, it was like this good representation of the example of doing that. And then your discussion of like the repercussions of that throughout both of your careers.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah. But also like, you know, it becomes tricky. You know, this is just an ego thing, you know, and it's just, you know, a personal issue. But like, you know, sometimes talking shit like in the case with Adam Sandler, I thought that, you know, he was fair game.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, right.

[Mark Maron]

That there are people in our business that become cultural touchstones or points or whatever the expression is, or cultural, have cultural impact. Whereas somebody who makes jokes about culture, they should be fair game. But when it comes right down to it, there's still that guy you see at the comedy club.

[Brendan McDonald]

But frankly, I would say. So this was. You were on Conan, right, And you said something about Adam Sandler fans, right?

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, and joke and.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. And it, and, and then he confronted you about it saying, you know, I heard you were talking about me and you said, yeah. On television.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, I was on Conan.

[Brendan McDonald]

And I would say that is how I feel like Lisa's position is in this thing with Birbiglia. Like, she's absolutely within her rights to say, oh, I don't like that guy. For how like her criticism of him was his stage Persona.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

She's like, I don't like this guy, grown up guy talking like a baby doofus.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

Like, you know, be a real guy.

[Mark Maron]

Be yourself, you, your wife.

[Brendan McDonald]

Right. But like anybody could say that that's criticizing, that's criticism of his Persona.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah. It's almost all people do. It's not just comics. Everybody talks shit.

[Brendan McDonald]

That's right. That's. That's exactly right.

[Mark Maron]

It's an industry based on it.

[Brendan McDonald]

But because it's a comic doing it about a comic, it winds up seeming.

[Mark Maron]

Personal or, or, or player hating or jealousy. It's like my criticism of the anti woke guys. I mean, you know, that, that tribalized, that definitely put me on the outside of that thing. And I know all those guys. But you know that that is of utmost political importance and cultural importance that somebody do that. Because that's why you have a bunch of not necessarily political comics, but certainly left leaning people in my business who are afraid, you know, just like, like everyone's afraid of, of Trump, of Rogan, of whatever, but somebody's got to just, you know, throw. And it's not even like, it's weird. Last night I had a moment where, you know, along these lines in terms of, you know, what we do that, you know, like, our. My policy, and I think rightfully so, and our approach to this is that we do our show. This is how we do it. There's some. There is some insulation because we are audio, and we're not easily clipped. And if somebody wants to reference something I say they have to put it in print. And that's, you know, not really the. The currency of the time. And it protects me a little bit from, you know, troll pylons and being dragged into a larger cultural conversation, you know, But I still say my piece, but, you know, there is part of me that wishes it would even land harder. And I had this saw last night is off topic, but I was like, you know, God damn it. Are we. You know, after I read that article I sent you from the Hollywood Reporter, I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah. Renan and I doing the right thing? Should we produce some video pieces that I know will fucking crawl up the ass of these people? Because it's our duty, not. You know, look, we. We. We run our own shop, we make a good living, and we're okay with that. But there's part of me. There's a higher calling for. For me to trash these guys on video. And maybe I'll just ask Brendan if we should just, you know, script, like, five or six pieces that I can go to a studio of a pier and put on a video for my platform guys to put up. Just so we're on record. Are you in?

[Brendan McDonald]

The hilarious thing about that, though, is, like, I can't think of a thing that you would hate more than the repercussions of that.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, I know. I know. That's always part of it. Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. Like, it's like. It's.

[Mark Maron]

It's like. Because it's like a hundred thousand Mike Rubiglias, I gotta call. It's just gonna be going like, oh, God damn it.

[Brendan McDonald]

That's just your. Yeah, that's the rest of your life, every day. Oh, God, they gotta do that thing now.

[Mark Maron]

Why they put that out there. It's never gonna stop. Yeah, but isn't that cowardice?

[Brendan McDonald]

Wait, no. Cowardice is. Is cowardice would be if you did that, if that was a thing you do, right? If you. If you have a show where you're, you know, supposed to call people on the carpet for the things. Like if you were John Oliver, right. And you all of a sudden trump because you're Afraid what Trump's going to do to you. That's cowardice. Then that's why John Oliver doesn't do it. He's not a coward. He's not. He's not a guy who's going to be like, well, I'll shut up then if this guy's going to threaten me. But, like, you have never established that you're some guy who. Your job is to police comedy. That's just not. It's not your job. But you definitely can speak your mind. And every intro that you do is, Is laden with your opinions vis a vis other comics and how they conduct themselves.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

That doesn't mean that by not being like, I'm gonna do a takedown of them every day, you're being a coward.

[Mark Maron]

Well, I guess I didn't see it as a takedown. I think I, you know, that because from the side I'm on, you know, and the, the, the appreciation I get from comics that, you know, don't have a platform big enough or don't have the balls to do it, it's just not being done. And in my mind, these lines, these dividing lines are very real. And a lot of them don't want to, you know, a lot of them can't see past the opportunities offered to them by being diplomatic with these comics that have this power, you know, which I don't really have. So sometimes I think it's on me to, to call out collaborators and to broaden the conversation around the impact of people who are quote, unquote, just comedians now. You know, that's what it is. It's not.

[Brendan McDonald]

But, but it's like, don't you think you do that? Definitely not just on the podcast, but you've done it in your specials. You do it when you guest on, on late night shows.

[Mark Maron]

I mean, like, yeah, I guess, I guess there's part of me that's sort of like, I'm not like, I guess there's always part of me that thinks, like, you know, if I do it, it'll free up the dialogue.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, well, I think you're just bumping up against the thing that you bumped up with any. Regardless of what it is, it could be with your comedy, your acting, anything, that when you do it, you're like, shouldn't the whole world see this? Doesn't everybody get to see this and celebrate it?

[Mark Maron]

Turns out, no, not, not many. It's never the whole world. But. But no, but also just sort of like, because there is that same fear that people in Congress feel around speaking Their minds or being honest about what's happening. That happens in comedy too. But it's. The implications are different. They don't want to fuck opportunities up. They don't want to be targeted by the army of meatheads. There's a lot of things. But, but, but, but, yeah, but I, you know, I, I wish. I think it would be helpful if more people could, you know, speak their mind about it, but then again, it's not many comics that do that, period, you know, in terms of this type of stuff.

[Brendan McDonald]

That's funny that we got to all this from Birbiglia, who is definitely not of that.

[Mark Maron]

No. But I think what's important is that, you know, my, the sort of. The difference between my engagement around this stuff and around speaking my mind, that is part of me, and it is something I do and it is important. But there is another operative part of me of like, oh, man, now I've caused all this trouble for myself. I've caused other people trouble, and now I have to sit with that or try. I've gotten better at that because you gotta do some things that are gonna come back at you in the form of attacks or trolling or judgment. And it's just life. But I'm very aware of the decision making around doing it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Well, one of the things that I always take to heart, and I remember hearing this from one of Letterman's producers, that Letterman told the producers of the show, your job is to protect me from myself.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

And I've always taken that to heart. Like, and I don't mean that from the sense of, like, I've got to censor you. I do. Obviously do not. Because, like, we, you know, have a pretty connected relationship on that.

[Mark Maron]

It's literally protecting me from myself. There's a. It's not censoring, but that's why, like, you know, when I think about doing things, I'm like, gotta run this by the brain.

[Brendan McDonald]

And that's. And, and my thinking is not like, oh, what would I do?

[Mark Maron]

No, I know.

[Brendan McDonald]

My thinking is, what does this do for him? Right. Like, that's a distinct difference.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes I, I just picture you when I have to do other appearances, just watching, going like, oh, my God, what is it? What's he gonna do? I'm not there to.

[Brendan McDonald]

Oh, no, I don't think I've ever. I don't think I've literally. I've never done that. I've never done that. I. I did. And it's. It's definitely less now. I did have A sense that the horses were out of the stable once the Instagram Live stuff.

[Mark Maron]

Right.

[Brendan McDonald]

Became.

[Mark Maron]

Right, Right.

[Brendan McDonald]

You know, very prominent.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

Because there was just no way to have any set. Like, it would be one thing if you were. Do. You did a show, let's say, like, you did. I'm not going to name which one it was, but you did a show recently, you said something on it, and you and I were talking about it. You were not talking about the show that you. You taped with a. With a, you know, you as a guest. Yeah, but we were talking about something else, something that related to that. And you said, I just did a joke. I talked about that on this show. You know, and then based on the conversation you and I were having, you said, yeah, I think that's probably not a good thing to put out there. So you contacted the person you did the show with, you said, hey, can we cut that part? And they said, sure. And you did.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

And it was like, that's the ability that we have as a. As a partnership that, like, I didn't know you said that. And I. But it was just that we were. Ha. We have regular conversations, but it's like.

[Mark Maron]

I. I like that I have this. This part of myself where I'll say something, I'll be like, oh, I gotta come clean on that and talk to Brendan. Like, you know, like.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, but then you didn't do that with the IG stuff, because you didn't remember. You're just talking. Right. So it's not like. So then I'd find out sometimes, literally years later, we'd be dealing with something, and it's like, oh, it's because you said this thing two years ago on Instagram Live.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, I don't. Like, I've gotten into a little personal issues with that stuff and also, like, you know, other issues, because it was very free form, and I wasn't thinking in terms of it not necessarily lasting, but by the looks of the. The participation, it wasn't like some global hit, you know what I mean? But it was. It existed.

[Brendan McDonald]

And all you need is. All you need is a couple hundred people for that to actually some in some way metastasize.

[Mark Maron]

But oddly, like, you know, a lot of it. The only stuff that kind of bit me in the ass was about comics. Really?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yes.

[Mark Maron]

And some. Some people developed, you know, peculiar, parasocial relationships with me. Right.

[Brendan McDonald]

Well, I mean, look, here's the thing I always say to you when you're talking, when you and I talk about, you know, like, you know, not specifically what you brought up before about making a video about these, the anti woke guys, but like, you've brought up things like this, like, like that and been like, you know, well, where can I do this? And I'm always like, you have amazing platforms for yourself that you fully control. You don't have to go on somebody else's show and talk about it because you're out of control. It's not in your control there. And, and the bottom line is, even if you don't feel it as the, the relevancy, the audience of, of, of this podcast, not this bonus one, but the, the main podcast is, is as substantial a platform as I would say, you know, 99 of your peers.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

Have.

[Mark Maron]

Sure.

[Brendan McDonald]

Right.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

Or could you hope to have.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

And so like, it does, I think, because you just go sit in that room you're in right now and do it and there's nobody else around. I think sometimes you just have no grasp on that. You don't get that.

[Mark Maron]

I never do.

[Brendan McDonald]

Right. Oh, hundreds of thousands of people just heard me say that actual thing.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. And you know, and I think that our dynamic, you know, works towards, you know, managing that properly. And I, you know, and there are things I've said on here where I literally text you after. I'm like, yeah, you're gonna probably cut that thing out. And you're like, I already did. It's already out.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah, there's. Sometimes there's the like, hey, did this make it in? Nope, did not. Well, I'm glad that this all, even if it was uncomfortable for you, it ended in the right spot.

[Mark Maron]

I'm pretty much a softie at heart and I think Mike appreciates that. I think what's happened with that generation of comics is I'm sort of like this a guy that, despite what I think, they all kind of understand me. And if they still want to engage with me, it's because I'm like, I am. But they know like how I really am, you know.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, it's like a junkyard dog.

[Mark Maron]

It's like rather maybe an old character of some kind, like, you know, cranky Mark or shit talking Mark, because I love doing it. Like, I went out to dinner with Mulaney and Joe Mandy and Dan Levy and Max Silvestri. They invite me to those things. And I like to tell stories and I like to talk shit and, and you know, I, I'm a, you know, a bright person and I like listening to their shit. So. But I, I am, I Have to accept that I'm kind of this old man character to some of them.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. I also think that's probably. That's. That's. That's revealing in the sense that you do that. These are, you know, some of those guys, you know, all of those guys are very funny. And here they are, like, listening to you, and you. You're getting big laughs out of them, telling these stories. And, like, you spend your whole life getting feedback from audiences, and here's, like, a good audience, and they think what you're saying is very funny. Why are you gonna keep that to yourself, then? Like, it's. It's. It's giving your brain permission to, like, yeah, I'm gonna go do this somewhere else. I'll get other people to laugh.

[Mark Maron]

And also because, like, I'm not hungry. I'm not really in the game in the same way. I'm not playing the same game they are.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Mark Maron]

So I speak with a freedom of mind. It was very funny because, like, you know, with that group, and it's always sort of like, you know, how's this gonna land? You know?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Mark Maron]

And I was talking about somebody somewhere. Is that the name of that show?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Mark Maron]

Because I'm gonna. Am I gonna talk to her?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Mark Maron]

Oh, Bridget Everett. Right. So I didn't know anything. I don't know anything. I didn't know anything about her. I didn't watch the show at all. But I watched all the seasons, and I'm like. Like, I go, like, have you guys. What do you think of this show? You know, somebody somewhere? And as I said, I love it. Mandy's like, I hate it. Simultaneously, it happened, and Mulaney's like, that was the best. That was perfect. Like, you literally, I'm looking around for someone to get on board, and right as I say, I love it, he's right next to me, goes, I hate it. And I'm like, oh, my God. And then we had to have that conversation. Like, how could you hate that? Because it's not. There's nothing. It's not badly written. It's not. And really what it was was that that thing, either it's gonna get into your heart or it's not. And if it doesn't connect with your heart, it's just gonna be boring and terrible. Like, you've got to respond to that thing emotionally.

[Brendan McDonald]

Well, you know. Yes. That's gonna come up soon in a future episode. And really, before the Birbiglia call happened, my intention of getting on the mics with you today was gonna be to talk to you right after David Cronenberg left the garage. So I have not heard from you yet about how that talk was. And I know you put a lot of prep into that. You watched it a lot of movies and you did a lot of thinking about him.

[Mark Maron]

Well, yeah, I really, like. People like him, demand that. And no matter how much you're like, well, you've seen enough or whatever, I definitely need, in order to get a full sense of the arc of their output and creativity, I really have to go into it and see where we meet and where I meet his work. And it was very interesting because, you know, I did. I had one of those things where, you know, I watched, I think, his new movie and then I watched some really old stuff and I just kind of. My brain just kind of, kind of started generating, you know, ideas and takes and, you know, where he is, you know, metaphysically, spiritually, around, you know, how he is with, you know, body dismemberment, disembodied bodies. I wrote this whole big page here, you know, manifesting psychic violence, physical violence, harm done by machines, symbiosis with machines, belief versus truth. Core truth is decomposition. And I read that it looks like. I told. It looks like a math problem. And I, at the bottom, I read this to him, I said, the depth of his secular anti mysticism is that, you know, he'd rather deal with the meat the machine, the mutations of desire and pain. And he's like. He's like, yeah, okay, that makes. Yeah, I can. Yeah, that makes sense. You know, and also watching what I became fascinated with was what work of authors he chose to reckon with. You know, because I'm a big fan of the movie the Dead Zone. And I've rewatched it several times. And then I watch. I haven't seen Naked Lunch in years, but I did see it. But I did watch his Bruce Wagner script. Like, he wrote the script for Naked Lunch and he also wrote the script for Cosmopolis, which was a DeLillo book. But Bruce Wagner wrote the script for Maps to the Stars, which is a difficult novel and it's big and I never got through it, but it's a Bruce Wagner script. And I felt like I'd seen the movie, but I don't know if I watched it all the way through, but I watched it all the way through last night and it's great. It's dark as shit, but, you know, it's Wagner writing Wagner. So like, you know, this is his conception of the story and it's kind of amazing, especially if you like Wagner. And the same with Cosmopolis. I talked to him about DeLillo, and Cronenberg had just. He liked the book, and he just wrote, you know, some scenes just with Dolillo's language. And after he wrote a bunch of scenes, he's like, I think this is a movie, and it's kind of a great movie. And it made me re excited about DeLillo because it's hard to pull off. Then we talked a bit about that, about, you know, working from novels. But we also talked a lot about, you know, we talked about the new movie, the Shrouds a lot. And we talked about Scanners a bit. We talked about the Brood a bit. We talked about the Fly a bit. We talked about the history of violence. We talked about the very first movie Stereo, which he surprised anybody ever sees. And, yeah, so it was a pretty. And the Brood, which I watched with Kit, because that's her favorite, Konenberg. And so I had a very full sort of sense in my head of places to go with him.

[Brendan McDonald]

And he was a pleasant guy.

[Mark Maron]

Oh, yeah, he's a nice guy. You know, he's one of those guys that when he stops talking, he stops talking. You know, like, it's not that he's not a conversationalist, but I'd put stuff out there and he'd say something and I notice, like, oh, he's done with that. So I'd have to, you know, keep it going like that.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, hit the next button.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, exactly. It wasn't so much questions, you know, because a lot of times I don't ask questions. I just want them to respond to ideas.

[Brendan McDonald]

The ideas. Yeah. Yeah.

[Mark Maron]

But it was good.

[Brendan McDonald]

Well, but, yeah, that's great. I mean, it's one of those things where the nice benefit doing an interview like that for you is that you get to do a little, like, film school of this person, like a crash course, which, obviously, you've seen Cronenberg movies through a good portion of your life. It's not new to you, but it's nice. I always find it's nice to get it, like a good, concentrated hit.

[Mark Maron]

Well, yeah, because it's, you know, you don't reckon with movies all the time, you know, like the Fly. We all know most people, nerds, know Scanners and Videodrome, which I can't imagine aged well, and there's quite a few that I never seen. But watching Cosmopolis and Maps to the Stars was just mind blowing to me because Cosmopolis is interesting because he does shoot a Certain way. And that was one of the things I talked to him about, that it all seems early on, it was very stark. And then I realized it goes all the way through, and it's a decision he makes. So he was able to speak to that a bit. Speak to how he works with actors a bit, you know, speak to, you know, these themes that he has. So he doesn't see them as themes. So I kind of reframed it. That as an artist that, you know, you're going to. Whether they're themes or not, you find yourself in the same zone as time goes, goes on, maybe not, you know, continuing to understand them. You know, we talked about the nature of resolution, not existing. Yeah, it was good. It was good.

[Brendan McDonald]

Well, good. I'm excited to listen to it. I know you love having directors on, and he's a top one. He's, you know, there's only one David Cronenberg.

[Mark Maron]

That's right. And it's interesting that, you know, in talking about the idea of horror as a genre, and then, you know, I actually, in my sort of frenzy of thinking, you know, I went and looked up the definition of horror, not. Not as a film genre, but just as a word.

[Brendan McDonald]

A word. Yeah.

[Mark Maron]

And it's. It's kind of. It's kind of telling in a sort of way, you know, because. Because, you know, he doesn't like genres. He doesn't like necessarily the idea of body horror. I mean, he knows, you know, what. What they're saying. But it's. It's a critical word. But the word horror is an intense feeling of fear, shock, or disgust. And I'm like, will you do that?

[Brendan McDonald]

Could he get on board with that at least?

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, of course. Yeah.

[Brendan McDonald]

Well, good man. Good. Good that that happened. I look forward to listening to it. And I look forward to your eventual talk once again with Birbiglia.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, me too. All right, buddy.