Episode 1592 - Cynthia Erivo

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron Podcast Episode 1592 - Cynthia Erivo Release Date: November 18, 2024

In Episode 1592 of WTF with Marc Maron, host Marc Maron engages in a profound and revealing conversation with acclaimed actress and singer Cynthia Erivo. The episode delves deep into Cynthia's illustrious career, personal experiences, and her perspectives on various societal issues. Below is a comprehensive summary capturing the essence of their discussion.

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1. Career Beginnings and Breakthroughs

Cynthia Erivo shares her journey from London to Broadway, highlighting her breakout role in "The Color Purple". She discusses the challenges and triumphs of transitioning from the West End to the American stage.

Cynthia Erivo [12:41]: "I've been in a couple of full marathons and a few half marathons. It is a lot."

2. Acting in "Harriet" and Portraying Aretha Franklin

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around Cynthia's portrayal of Aretha Franklin in the Nat Geo series "Genius". She reflects on the emotional depth required for the role and the physical demands it entailed.

Marc Maron [33:24]: "Did you like doing Aretha?"

Cynthia Erivo [33:44]: "I did, yeah. It was tough, though. I really had to connect deeply with the character."

3. Personal Life and Fitness Regimen

Cynthia opens up about her fitness routines, including her experiences with Peloton and various fitness devices. She discusses the balance between maintaining physical health and the mental challenges that come with it.

Cynthia Erivo [16:27]: "I don't use them anymore. I think it makes me become really obsessed with it because I love fitness."

4. Experiences on Tour and Theater Life

Discussing her time on Broadway and touring the UK, Cynthia highlights the unpredictable nature of performances and the camaraderie among cast members. She recounts memorable moments, including interactions with fellow actors and the rigorous demands of performing multiple shows a week.

Cynthia Erivo [61:02]: "And it was the reason I got my next thing, which was like a big old UK tour of Sister Act. It was crazy and fun."

5. Societal Reflections: Racism and Activism

Cynthia and Marc delve into discussions about racism, colonialism, and the perpetuation of harmful belief systems. Cynthia reflects on her upbringing in England and her Nigerian heritage, offering insights into how these experiences shape her worldview.

Cynthia Erivo [41:31]: "I think the UK has tried its best to rectify some of it, but some of it is rewinding itself with all those horrible riots."

6. Faith and Personal Beliefs

Cynthia discusses her spiritual journey, distinguishing her personal faith from traditional Catholicism. She emphasizes the importance of singing in her spiritual life, describing it as a source of connection and vulnerability.

Cynthia Erivo [50:49]: "I hold my faith to be true. I do believe in God, but my way of believing is slightly different from a Catholic perspective."

7. The Vulnerability of Performing

A heartfelt segment where Cynthia explains the emotional challenges of performing, especially in roles that require deep emotional investment. She recounts a particularly intense moment during a performance where she experienced a complete emotional breakdown on stage.

Cynthia Erivo [66:07]: "There was no coverage. I was like, I realized I was on stage, and I couldn't find my voice."

8. Reflections on Musical Theater and Depth

Cynthia expresses her love for musicals, appreciating the depth and complexity they bring despite their often lighter exterior. She discusses the political undertones in productions like "Wicked" and how they resonate with contemporary societal issues.

Cynthia Erivo [72:15]: "Gregory Maguire wrote a book that was very political, and that's why the musical feels quite political."

9. Mentorship and Growth in Acting

Cynthia recounts her early experiences with mentorship at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts (RADA). She shares anecdotes about her auditions, the challenges she faced, and the support she received from mentors that propelled her into a successful acting career.

Cynthia Erivo [57:21]: "She wouldn't let me join the Acting Company unless I applied for drama school. It was tough, but it pushed me to grow."

10. Closing Thoughts and Future Projects

As the conversation wraps up, Cynthia reflects on her achievements and expresses gratitude for the opportunities that have shaped her career. She hints at upcoming projects and her continuous quest for meaningful roles that challenge her as an artist.

Cynthia Erivo [75:14]: "I'm really proud of it. We're going to combine both the beauty of the stage and the book to tell a fuller story."

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Notable Quotes:

• Marc Maron [33:24]: "Did you like doing Aretha?"

• Cynthia Erivo [33:44]: "I did, yeah. It was tough, though. I really had to connect deeply with the character."

• Cynthia Erivo [66:07]: "I realized I was on stage, and I couldn't find my voice."

• Cynthia Erivo [41:31]: "I think the UK has tried its best to rectify some of it, but some of it is rewinding itself with all those horrible riots."

This episode offers an intimate glimpse into Cynthia Erivo's multifaceted life, her dedication to her craft, and her thoughtful engagement with pressing social issues. Marc Maron's probing questions allow Cynthia to articulate her experiences and insights, making this episode a must-listen for fans and newcomers alike.

Transcript

[Marc Maron]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

The.

[Marc Maron]

It's. I think it's called the Night Gallery. But it was nice to go to that. So anyway, I run into Ed Helms, who I haven't seen in probably decades. Well, not maybe. Well, probably since he's done this show. And he's a nice guy, banjo player. He famously did this show and he was, he was having a cat allergy and he was just wheezing out there in the old garage. And I just, I didn't, I didn't help him. I just, I needed to get that hour. He's going to play some banjo. And he got through it, but I felt bad that I kind of kept him wheezing to get through the show. But anyway, so I'm talking to Ed and he goes, I got a split. And I'm like, where are you going? He's like, this is going to sound weird, but I'm going to a listening party for Ringo Starr's new record. And I remembered that I had been invited to that by T Bone Burnett. I'm not dropping names, I get invited to nothing. But out of nowhere, weeks ago, when I was shooting the movie, T Bone had emailed me and we don't talk. But he said, this is happening. And I just spaced it out. And Ed said, he's going I'm like, oh, my God. I think I was invited to that. Where is it? And he's like, it's in Santa Monica. I'm like, oh, fuck. So I'm like, well, fuck it, I'm going to go. You know, it's one of those things where it's like, I don't know what it's going to be like, but it'll be a room full of people sitting probably with Ringo Starr, listening to his new record. So I'm like, it, let's go. And I got there, it was down at Village Studios in Santa Monica. A lot of stuff happened there. I don't know, I was scrambling. So we drive down there, we're in separate cars. I show up, I didn't know what to expect. And I see like, well, they recognize me because I did Conan with them, the milk Carton kids, Kenneth and Joey. And they were like, hey, what's up? I'm like, all right. These guys, I know these guys. And then it's just in this large room, there were some snacks there, a little bar. There's a lot of, a lot of like solidly proud gray haired people. It's not always nice to see the proud gray hair. And a lot of like, seem like, you know, kind of groovy, aging rock women rock who were once rock girls. It was just, it was an interesting mix of people. I ran. Ed Begley and his wife were there, who I know Joe Walsh was there because I believe he's married to Ringo's wife's sister. And, you know, I had interviewed Joe and I said, hey, how you doing? It's me, Mark Maron. I don't think he had any recollection, but he was very polite. But Stephen Stills was there, so that was kind of crazy. And it's very casual. You know, there's maybe 70 people there and I imagine they're mostly friends of Ringo's. And I've never talked to Ringo, I've never met Ringo. I've never been in a room with Ringo. I'd like to have him on the podcast. It's always exciting if you and your life are ever in a position to meet a beetle, one of the magic people. And Ringo is so specific. He's specifically Ringo, but he wasn't in the room when I got there. I'm hanging around. That Tyson fight was supposed to happen later and I'd gotten myself into that fucking mindset of like, yeah, I just want to see Tyson kill that guy. But I don't think that was even a real Fight. It's more of a wrestling match, right? It's the age of the heel. And I just feel like it was all set up. It was a thrown fight for big money that was not even on the professional fight docket, if that even exists anymore. And it just seemed like that dude, that influencer. It's like this is the age of the amateur and the age of the heel. But I don't know what was up. But I got into the mindset, like, I'd like to see Mike beat the shit out of that guy. And then I realized, like, this is fucking wrestling, man. This isn't boxing. This whole scam is a wrestling scam. He's a fucking heel scam. Yeah. Who would have known that Mike would be the face? But anyway, so we're hanging out, meeting the hummus, and Ringo comes in and I was just like, I gotta. I gotta meet Ringo Starr. But there was people around him and I have no way in. And believe it or not, I'm fairly nervous still with, you know, most people who are. I didn't even know how to. I was terrified of Stephen Stills. He strikes me as a frightening guy. He's very intimidating. But, you know, Stephen Stills was one of. He's one of the best. One of the best singers, certainly songwriters. But I did end up meeting him and his wife and I met Ringo and I was there with a little circle of people and they were talking about Richard Lewis, and Ringo was talking about Richard Lewis, and we were talking about how we missed Richard Lewis. But he's so Ringo. She's so fucking Ringo. Ringo is. And everyone just sat around and listened to his new country record that was produced by T Bone, who didn't come. But it was very exciting. And I, you know, I don't. You know, it's not. This is not some humble brag or name drop fest. I was just, you know, I was in a room with Ringo Starr and he was being very Ringo Starr like. And it was enjoyable. And the record was also enjoyable. Oh, you want me to catch you up on the vacuum situation? So I gave the spark vacuum, I think that's the brand, to kit. And the broken vacuum is out here waiting to be taken away or by me when I get, you know, the. It's not in. It's in Whittier, it's not in Downey. And I've got the other Dyson. I got a lot of input on the vacuums. Anytime I talk about practical things, I get a lot of input. I know the meal vacuum. Everyone loves that But I've gotten kind of accustomed to these Dysons. I like the Dyson. They break. I get it. But I just went and got the. You know, I went and bought the new animal, the animal three. And then someone emailed me and hit me to the fact that they actually sucked too hard. But so I got another animal too, and I'm all good. I got the broomstyle vacuum, and then I got the animal too. And that's it. And the broken one. So we leveled off on that. Look, folks, most Americans think they spend about $62 a month on subscriptions, but the real number is closer to $300. That's a big difference. I knew this was probably true, but I didn't know how true until we got Rocket Money as a sponsor. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. See all of your subscriptions in one place and know exactly where your money is going. And if you don't want any of those subscriptions anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them. With a few taps, you can also easily create a personalized budget with custom categories to help keep your spending on track. See your monthly spending trends in each category to know exactly where your money is going. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com WTF? That's RocketMoney.com/WTF. Rocket Money.com WTF. Stop wasting cash. So Cynthia. Cynthia Erivo. Truly talented person. I went and watched Wicked. I enjoyed it. I don't know the play, I don't know the movie. It's just part one. That's. That's what I found out. But it's pretty and the singing is nice and she's great in it. But she's also done a lot of stuff, and I was very interested to talk to her about her life. Wicked opens in theaters this Friday, November 22nd. And this is me talking to Cynthia Erivo. Life is busy, people, and if you're like me, no matter how busy you get, you've got to get your fitness in. Peloton has a variety of challenging classes and programs that fit into your schedule. Whether you're a new parent or traveling for the holiday or training for something big or Just busy like everyone else. From four week strength building classes to running, cycling and everything in between, Peloton can adapt to any goal and need during your busiest times. Find your push, find your power with [e-mail]. so wait, tell me, like, tell me about this big show business event.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

The Academy. Is it the Academy Awards or just the Academy?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Just the Academy. So it's. It's often to raise money. I think it's mainly to raise money to keep the Academy museum open and going and expanding.

[Marc Maron]

Is that where it was?

[Cynthia Erivo]

That was it. That's where it was, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I've never been there. What is that? Like?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's really beautiful.

[Marc Maron]

Where is it?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's lacma, which is near.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, it's in lacma. Yeah. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's really beautiful.

[Marc Maron]

And they have just stuff from the history of show business, of the history of film, specifically. Okay, yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So like, everything from the actual academies themselves.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then film throughout the ages and sometimes they'll have, like, retrospectives on particular.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. I think I. You know what? I think I saw the Kubrick one there. Yeah, I think that's where that was.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was a really cool one.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, that's crazy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they did Kubrick one. I felt like they did Pablo Madova as well.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, that would make sense. That's colorful.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, they did. Yes. They did some. They did some cool bits on Barbra. Barbra Streisand. It's like, there's like, some really lovely things to see.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

There's like a costume retrospective of all the different things and it changes.

[Marc Maron]

So you get this gig. They're like, we want her to sing there.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes. So I was asked to come in and sing.

[Marc Maron]

How do you feel generally about those kind of gigs?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I like them.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. You're just sort of like, okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. The thing is, I like singing live anyway, and if I can have a live band or mini orchestra behind me, I'm happy.

[Marc Maron]

Was there a host?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, there were a few hosts.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

There wasn't like one main host for.

[Marc Maron]

The night, so it's a big fancy thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Who was there? Who was the hosts?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Who hosted? So Saoirse Ronan hosted for Paul Mescal.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

John Travolta hosted for Quentin Tarantino.

[Marc Maron]

And did he talk a lot?

[Cynthia Erivo]

He actually did not. It was, like, really succinct and sweet and he. I think he donated his, like, handwritten script for Pulp Fiction.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, that's nice.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which is really cool. And. Oh, Steven Spielberg for Rita Moreno. It was wonderful.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, that's nice.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Black tie. Everyone's dressed up.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, everyone's dressed up. Very black ties.

[Marc Maron]

That's how I know that I'm not in the big time, is that I don't. There was never a point where I said, I guess I better buy a tuxedo.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, but sometimes the thing is, right now I feel like tuxedos are sort of like. If you want.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, no, sure.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Black tie is kind of left to the person.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. You're better off going with something unique. Maybe a kilt.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, sure.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Why not?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Although that's kind of like a throwback to the 90s. Really?

[Marc Maron]

What, the kilt thing?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it's very Alexander McQueen.

[Marc Maron]

That's true. Yes. I remember the kilt period.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know. Historically, there's no reason for me to wear a kilt. I couldn't.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, I ended up wearing a kilt when I was at secondary school, and there was no real reason for me to wear a kilt, except for that.

[Marc Maron]

So was that the plaid dress?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I had a plaid skirt. Like a plaid skirt. It was a kilt. Like wool? Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

For Catholic school.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

I don't understand that whole outfit. I don't understand where it comes from historically. I don't know why that's a thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I actually think it comes from. Now I may be wrong. I think it originally comes from, strangely enough, Japan.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Ancient Japan.

[Marc Maron]

Ancient Japan?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think. So I might be wrong. So I was doing some weird research for reason. That's where it came from.

[Marc Maron]

I like the idea because it's, like, very provoking. Now a lot of people be like, I'm going to have to put this on pause to go and look and figure out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And if I'm wrong, I apologize. But I'm so sure about.

[Marc Maron]

I think, you know, even if you're wrong, people are going to learn something.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Yeah. Its root is further back than we realize.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my God. So, yeah. So your day was okay?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, the day was okay. I woke up very late.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Cynthia Erivo]

But I think my body had been asking for a lot of sleep because I've been on different time zones for a while.

[Marc Maron]

I don't understand my fitness watch. Do you wear one?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't anymore. I think it makes me become really obsessed with it because I love fitness. I'm a fitness freak. But when I have my fitness watch, it just.

[Marc Maron]

What were you using?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Both Fitbit and Apple.

[Marc Maron]

I got this one. Whoop.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, I've Been told about the whoop.

[Marc Maron]

And it's just on your phone.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

But, like, I, you know, I got enough sleep, you know, because I exercise, too. I don't know if I'm as. I do it compulsively, but I don't know if it's as much as you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, if you're doing it compulsively, I think it's probably as much as me.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean, compulsive exercise just means on the days you don't exercise, you beat the shit out of yourself.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Sometimes that happens occasionally. Yeah. I have to, like, have a conversation with myself sometimes if I'm, like, not working out today. You don't need to work out because you worked out yesterday and you're totally fine. Yeah, it's okay.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Don't get so upset because you haven't. Yeah, don't feel guilty. But most of the time I do.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I got up and, like, my fit. My thing said I didn't recover properly. Like, I like this one. I don't even know what it's based on.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Recovery, body recovery, maybe just like, your breathing, the oxygen, I guess so.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know. But it woke up this morning and, like, it said, you know, you didn't recover enough. And usually that's where I just push through. Because they give you an optimal. An optimal exercise. I'm like, it's not quite enough. So I'm over there, I got up early and I went and did that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I don't know, it kind of. It kind of beat me up a little bit.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't know if I want to be made to feel guilty by my watch. That's a little intense, but.

[Marc Maron]

But that's what you experience, right? You just got obsessed with it. Is there a difference?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, well, the thing is. So, like, I'll set the problem with the Apple or the Fitbit, which both work really well because they sort of, like, keep you on track. But if you set, like a. You set an amount of steps to do.

[Marc Maron]

Right, right. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then the one day you just don't do that amount of steps, and then you sort of like. Then your watch will be like, well, you're behind on your steps by this amount.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And, like, it'll keep coming up until you meet your steps.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So then you. You keep going until you beat the steps.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Sometimes there are days where you just can't.

[Marc Maron]

Don't want to do it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You need to sit down.

[Marc Maron]

So the obsession with the watch is always going to lead to some sort of shame.

[Cynthia Erivo]

A little bit.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So I take breaks. Me and the watch separate for a little bit sometimes. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You get. Well, I'm shooting. You can't have them on when you're shooting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No.

[Marc Maron]

So then you get a big break.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then you're like, am I helping?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, here's the thing with Fitbit, you can take the wrist, the band off, and you just pin it to you.

[Marc Maron]

So you can tell me that under the witch's outfit, you had your Fitbit on.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Did you check it during the day?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I did. I'm not even joking.

[Marc Maron]

When you're walking up the stairs in the castle.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, I'm being so serious. It was. I had it on me all day.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean, that's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I can either put it in my boot.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

By my ankle.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because that's where my pulse is. I'll keep. Or I put it, like, on my hip.

[Marc Maron]

And were you actively trying to get your steps in as the witch? Yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like, I just trying to get the steps in full stop. Like, if we're on a break, I'm not sitting down. I want to get my steps. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I guess I like. I guess I'm not that obsessed.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. But the thing is, it was. It was sort of, like, nice to be like, oh, this is where I'm going to move to this now.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

On my little mini breaks, we're going to. I'm going to do some steps.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Walk.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm going to move. As opposed to, like, being sedentary. Because that's the thing on set. Sometimes you can fall into being really sedentary and just not moving.

[Marc Maron]

Just in the trailer.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And just waiting. So it just.

[Marc Maron]

It's weird how I have not figured out a way to fully make that time constructive.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I am a busybody.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, me too. Generally. But if I'm sitting in the trailer, I'd rather be sitting on set. I'd rather be looking at food. Let's take another walk around where the food is. I'm still not gonna eat that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But that isn't. Yeah, I'm not gonna eat it ever. Never. I always. I'm like. I'm like that weird school kid who only brings her own food to the set. I make my own food.

[Marc Maron]

I do.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I bring it to the set.

[Marc Maron]

I don't bring mine to the set, but I make my own food.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I have, like, a little lunchbox.

[Marc Maron]

But when you're doing. When you're doing the steps, you take the witch shoes off. Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, I can't change out of the costume. I'm just, like, moving.

[Marc Maron]

So you're clumping around.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

What kind of shoes were those?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like boots, but it was proper heel. So depending on what part of what stage of which I was which changed. So at the beginning, there were sort of a shorter boot with a shorter heel, and the heel got higher and the boot got taller as she changed.

[Marc Maron]

So what's your primary exercise?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Pilates and walking and running.

[Marc Maron]

You run a lot?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I do.

[Marc Maron]

What. What kind of shoe you wearing?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm in the on cloud.

[Marc Maron]

You do the on cloud? Yeah, me too.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I love them. They're great, comfortable.

[Marc Maron]

Do you do the ones with the. That are closer to the ground? You know, with the little.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Depending. If I. If I'm walking, I do the ones that are close to the ground, but if I'm running, I do with the. The bigger heel club boost, I think.

[Marc Maron]

What about the Hokas? No, too much.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Never tried the Hokas.

[Marc Maron]

There's just too much heel.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, you're way up there, too. You're too high. However, there is a Nike one that has, like. It's a. It's like. I think it's a zoom, I think it's called. It's got a weird shape to it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I use those to run the marathon in there. They're amazing.

[Marc Maron]

A marathon? You do. You do full marathon?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I did a full marathon. I've done a couple full marathons and a few half marathons.

[Marc Maron]

That's a lot.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It is a lot. It is a lot.

[Marc Maron]

And doesn't it beat your body up pretty bad?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It does, which is why I don't do it as often as I want to. But I try and do one. I mean, every couple of years, I'm probably doing a marathon.

[Marc Maron]

Have you figured out what you're running from?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, here's the thing. That's an interesting question. People think that when you're running, you're running. I think I'm running from, like. I think I'm all running to all of the things I'm thinking of.

[Marc Maron]

Because.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Kind of use running to process things.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It feels like a meditation for me.

[Marc Maron]

So you can. You can get like. Because for me, I. I never really identified the dopamine situation.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my gosh.

[Marc Maron]

But it's like, it becomes essential to your sanity.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

If you. If you don't do it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I don't feel like I'm running from anything. But if I can get to that point where I'm not thinking about how far I'm running.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And I. Because time goes by a lot faster if you don't listen to music.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't either.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I don't sometimes, but I notice when I don't. It goes by faster.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

I don't. I don't quite understand why that is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, because I think you are actually, like, paying attention to what is around you when. When you're.

[Marc Maron]

And you're also thinking.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes. Because when you have music on, you're listening to lyrics and you know how long the song is, and then you know how long the next song is. And usually your songs about three minutes. So if there's only one song playing, it's only three minutes gone. And you want to. So it feels like the time is taking a really long time. But if you're not listening to anything, you don't know what time.

[Marc Maron]

Yes. It's the best.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You just going with what your body wants to go with.

[Marc Maron]

Exactly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And essentially trying not to sound hokey here. But your body. You are listening to what your body needs to listen to.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So if you're like, you need to put more energy into your thigh or your leg, then that's where it goes. If you need to put more energy into your breathing, that's where it goes. Or if you need to be in your head for a second, then you can be in your head for a second. So that's why it doesn't take as long, I think, when you're not listening to music.

[Marc Maron]

What I noticed too is sometimes when I'm running and I am hung up on the time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like, I always think, like before I check, like, I'll take the towel off of the treadmill and check how long I've run. Every time I think, like, I passed a certain. I will check the mileage at exactly the same time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

No matter what.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And my brain sort of like, no, we're much further.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And it's like, it doesn't work. I always. When I'm. If I'm on the treadmill.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I put an iPad up and I just watch something and I'll find like a film that is stupid amounts of time so that I know I'm not going to finish the film.

[Marc Maron]

That's what I do in the trailer.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Now, like, just find a film, find a book, something, anything. Yeah. Or I'm like a busy body and start to. I visit everyone if I'm sad.

[Marc Maron]

That's nice. Yeah. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Any amount of time.

[Marc Maron]

So what about your diet? What. What is that? Like, just eat regular.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I know. I don't Necessarily eat Well, I mean, it's regular for me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But it's probably not regular for other people.

[Marc Maron]

I've been vegan for, like, almost two years.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm. I've been vegan for a long time.

[Marc Maron]

You're vegan?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But I'm like. I'm like a. I love fruit and veg. I'm like a proper, like, fruit and veg eater.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And occasionally I'll go and have, like, a meat replacement, but really, I just love not much. Not much meat replacement because there's no need. Mushrooms do all of the work for you.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Those.

[Marc Maron]

Is that true?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. You can make them taste like anything.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah. Well, taste. But you don't get hung up on protein.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, I try to get protein because I tried to do my, Like a protein shake in the morning. That's great. And I'm. I'm trying to be better about it. I think I can probably find it in beans and things like that.

[Marc Maron]

That's what I do. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Basically, tempeh. I don't like the texture.

[Marc Maron]

I like the temp shape. I don't. I'm. I'm with the. I don't like the texture of tofu.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, I like the texture of tofu. But here's the thing. What it. Because you can do things like. What's the thing I like to do? Mousse. Chocolate mousse. You can make chocolate mousse with tofu. And it doesn't. There's no. It's like the texture of.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, if you use the. The soft tofu.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I've seen an Instagram influencer do that, and I look at the. I follow a bunch of vegan influences.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

How I'm gonna make that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I. I had a kind of a disappointing vegan breakfast today. I'm just trying to recover from it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

What did you have?

[Marc Maron]

Well, just sometimes when you go to restaurants, there's just too much glop, you know, like, what is that? What is that made of? What is it supposed to taste like? And there's too much of it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And it was annoying, the glop.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I see. I just. I'd like. I'll make it myself.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, me too.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's what I want myself.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I feel the same about, like, smoothies.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

If you get someone else to make a smoothie.

[Marc Maron]

Too much sugar.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Too much sugar, but also not enough ice ever. So it's always, like, liquid. And I want it to be a smoothie, which means it's supposed to be thick.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's supposed to be thick and cold.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then they make it into, like, milk.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And I'm just like, no, it's not good. Yeah, you want it. You want that struggle to get it up the stroke.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, that's what I want.

[Marc Maron]

Because it puts us in milkshake brain.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's what I'm saying.

[Marc Maron]

I want this to feel like dessert.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's what I'm saying. That's what I want.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I agree 100%.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I want this to fill me. I want it to be filling. I don't want it to feel like a drink.

[Marc Maron]

Like, it's all sometimes just too much sugar. It's sugar and everything, but you just.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Don'T need that much sugar in a smoothie. If you put the right ingredients in, everything else has. It's like, fruit is naturally sweet.

[Marc Maron]

I know. Like, and if I. If I have too much sugar, like I did on these, like, whatever the guap was on a pancake, like, then I'm chasing the sugar all day.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No.

[Marc Maron]

Then I need to eat a cookie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, it's not good. You just don't need it.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I'm glad we covered all the fitness stuff up front. The on cloud stuff, though, now I got it. Like, I used to have a guy over there, he'd give me the shoes. You getting them for free? You gotta work it out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm buying them.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, you gotta work it out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I am buying these shoes.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, you gotta work it out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, I would love to work it out. Why have I not.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know. Who's in charge of your things?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay. True. All right, come on now.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. If you like those on shoes, you should be getting a dozen boxes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I use them till they are, like, dead in the ground.

[Marc Maron]

I just met a guy one night at the Comedy Store when I was working. He's like, you know about these shoes? I'm like, no. He's like, I can get you some.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm like, all right, Please can someone do that for me? Cause I, like, my shoes are torn up. I am wearing them till they are nothing.

[Marc Maron]

Cynthia needs some on running stuff immediately. Immediately. We'll try to get the word out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Please. Cause I've been like, I vacillate between the two. So I'm wearing the on cloud cloudburst ones.

[Marc Maron]

Okay. Get specific.

[Cynthia Erivo]

See, this is what I'm saying now. You know I actually wear them, right? I know.

[Marc Maron]

I knew you did.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then Loewe does, like, a flat runner.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I love them because of how the soul moves. It's like, really, like, dexterous. I can actually. I can hike with those and feel great.

[Marc Maron]

I have the hiking ons. They make a hiking.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They make a hiking on?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, they used to make. They used to make, like a full hiking boot, both ankle and low cut, but now they. Now they have a low one that's basically a hiking sneaker. I've worn those. You got to be careful, though.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

Well, no, just in height. It doesn't matter. Like, a dog bit my ear yesterday. And what did you say? I said a dog bit my ear.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like a dog actually bit your ear?

[Marc Maron]

Yes. And I'm in the middle of shooting something and so I'm sort of like, no, it's right by my face.

[Cynthia Erivo]

How did. And how did.

[Marc Maron]

I was sitting down and my girlfriend's dog bit my ear. Oh, God, it's a crazy dog.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

And then I was gonna go on a hike today, but I'm like, I can't. I don't want to go on a hike because what if I fall down and, you know, on my face? Yeah. Then, like, you're shooting. And now it's like, if you're shooting out of sequence, they're gonna have to be like, maybe you just hurt your foot in between those. And then I got all paranoid that they're not gonna be able to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This is like fatalistic thinking to the max.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

How did you get from the dog with my ear to.

[Marc Maron]

I can't hike. I can't hike because I fell down once on the hike and I'm old and, like. And when I run down, there's always that. The menace. Oh, yeah, maybe. Which is great. But, like, I don't wanna. I don't wanna be like, hey, you gotta.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know, I once did a hike and I really. I actually really almost got completely lost, like, in the middle of the forest that went on a dead trail. It was bad.

[Marc Maron]

That can. Like, that is bad.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's bad.

[Marc Maron]

Where was that?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was. Where was I. I wanna. I can't remember where. Where I'd gone, but, like, was it Laurel Canyon or something like that?

[Marc Maron]

Oh, it was up here.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It might have been up here. And it was very hot.

[Marc Maron]

See, that's dangerous.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Really hot.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I was following a map and it took me down a dead trail.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So it's, like, covered in leaves and I was like, well, I don't think. I don't know if this is the right direction, but I don't know. It's the only direction it's giving me. So I'm just gonna keep going. And I'm like. I could feel like I was going away from everybody else. Everyone is going in a different direction, and I seem to be going in a different direction and down. Okay, so it's getting dark.

[Marc Maron]

But it was. But it was the Hollywood Hills, though, right? It was here. Well, you weren't out in the wilderness. You were.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, but it felt like I was in the middle of nowhere.

[Marc Maron]

It just gets so scary now with the climate, because you don't know what you can get through.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God. And when I got down there, there was like. There was a tree that had fallen over, so that was in the way. And then there was. So I went over the tree. I can get over the tree. It's not too. It's not crazy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then there's a gate.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

There was, like, a fence.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I was like, oh, this sounds like a fear. How do I get out in Glendale?

[Marc Maron]

You weren't in Glendale.

[Cynthia Erivo]

When I tell you I have no idea where I was because this map took me.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, you just walked up a hike.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I just looked up a hike and said, go here.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Cause sometimes I go to a trainer occasionally. And because I think I might be a glutton for punishment or sadistic, whichever you want to call it, I. I walk there, and it's seven miles away from where I live.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So I walked the seven miles.

[Marc Maron]

You live here?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I live. I live Studio City.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So I walk from. From Studio City I had to walk into.

[Marc Maron]

So you have to walk seven miles.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Seven miles to. It's like West Hollywood is where he lives. Just past West Hollywood.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And on the way back, it didn't give me the same directions. It took me a completely different route.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, so the whole seven miles is in the hills.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it's all the way up the hills. And then you end up going down that. The Laurel Canyon Drive is like. It's horrible to walk on.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, terrible.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because there is no sidewalk.

[Marc Maron]

No, it's dangerous.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's very dangerous. But I do it anyway, which. Don't do it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Anytime I see someone walking on that, I'm like, oh, that's not a good story.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No. And then the thing is, I'm used to it now. And the last. But for some reason, the last time, it took me a sensible route so I could go.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, good.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But the sensible route is all uphill, so.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's good. Well, yeah, it's good for you. The uphill.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, not when it's never ending and you have. And you're on a razor scooter.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So I took the razor scooter the last time, thinking I could help myself. I didn't. It was bad.

[Marc Maron]

How long have you lived here? I thought you lived in London.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, I moved from London in 2015 to New York.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, to New York.

[Cynthia Erivo]

First to do a musical, and then I moved from.

[Marc Maron]

For the Color Purple.

[Cynthia Erivo]

For the Color Purple.

[Marc Maron]

That's when that happened.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

With Jennifer Hudson.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, that's right.

[Marc Maron]

That's a big show.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You won a prize?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I did a couple, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Prizes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Prizes are nice, aren't they?

[Cynthia Erivo]

They are nice.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They are nice.

[Marc Maron]

I never won them.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's all right. The prize is life.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I'm working on that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, you do it. You are working on it. That's what we're discussing right now. That is what we're discussing.

[Marc Maron]

I better figure it out soon because I want to still be able to appreciate it. I don't want it to be too late where I'm like, I did it. The prize. I won the prize. It's so funny because you were in the Aretha show, right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's right, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because my friend who I've known forever, David Cross, played Wexler, and I played Wexler in the Jennifer Hudson movie, and I wanted to do Dueling Wexlers with David, but we never got around to it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You should have. He was so wonderful. I loved working with him, man. He was really cool.

[Marc Maron]

Did you like doing Aretha?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I did, yeah. I did. It was tough, though. I really. I.

[Marc Maron]

Dark stuff.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, I don't know, like. Because with.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

With our film, there's a lot of stuff. In terms of our movie, I don't think the estate even let us touch.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. But I think we touched it a little bit.

[Marc Maron]

You do? Yeah, yeah. How many? I didn't. How many episodes was it?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I would say it was 10 episodes.

[Marc Maron]

About the pregnancies and stuff.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We did a couple episodes about pregnancies because she was young, man. She was like a baby.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, like a baby.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's a baby.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And that, like, it's so weird when you see. How did you approach the character? What was this? What was the. Because she had this. Kind of interesting. Because there's so much footage of her early on, you know, being shot on tv, where she has almost a flat affect.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And it just seemed like somebody who was in Dead Inside. Right. But. But shut down.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right, Shut down.

[Marc Maron]

And that husband was not any help.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No.

[Marc Maron]

And she was sort of Bad.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We did that to the first husband. It was bad.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Because, like, she was almost Stockholm syndrome, you know, and it was bad. So it's. It's. It's an interesting thing to have to play.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because she's not dead inside. It's just closed down. And then it all comes out in the music.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Yeah. And that does that. I think that was the hardest thing to sort of, like, figure out how to. How to, like, navigate that, because it. What I loved watching in her interviews is, like, over time, she sort of, like. It was like watching her sort of, like, inch out, come out of her shell, and sort of like, that's when she starts making jokes, when she's like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But by the 60s and 70s, she starts.

[Marc Maron]

When she gets out from under that guy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. She starts making. She starts being herself in front of people. A little bit shadier, a bit more jokey, bit more poke fun, you know, saying the things that she actually wants to say, even though she is like a velvet iron fist in a velvet glove.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But then she was also informed by a certain amount of activism.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I just met the guy who. I talked to a guy on the airplane who was involved with finally getting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Amazing Grace, oh, my goodness.

[Marc Maron]

Into the movies. Like, you know, that thing had been.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Sitting around forever, and I don't think people realize that the sound had. The sound was a mess.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Because they just shot it like a regular movie. There was no sound. Sydney Pollock shot it, and it was sitting in, you know, a vault.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. She didn't want to come out. I don't think she didn't. I don't think she did.

[Marc Maron]

It's kind of amazing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's brilliant.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Brilliant. And really interesting to watch her.

[Marc Maron]

Cause she's at the end of her rope.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. It's really interesting to watch the relationships that are happening in the room. Like when her father comes in.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my God.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And what that does to her.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like, it shuts her down totally. And how she is with the pastor.

[Marc Maron]

But that he was, like, essential.

[Cynthia Erivo]

He was. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because he was like, you know, almost like a comedian hosting the thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And she knew exactly what was going on.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because he'd known her for his whole life.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It felt like he was sort of like the, like, North Star. As long as he was around, she'd be all right. She'd be all right. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

She'd land it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. It's crazy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I watched. I watched Harriet. Yeah. Last night.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I'm like, I better get up to speed.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I can't imagine that role, you know, it's what I was thinking about because I know that you got some flack for it. And it's like I kept, I think about, you know, that kind of flack in general. Like, why is this person playing this? For whatever reason, because we're the real people, whatever it is, Americans. But in reality, I saw your statement on it is that your experience is a black experience, which is universal, really. But aside from that, Harriet Tubman probably was in fairly close proximity to actual Africans.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I think she was maybe Twice or Mutant.

[Marc Maron]

They were around still. So there's an earnestness to you doing it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And also I would never have done it if I didn't think I could, like, do her justice and if I didn't care.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know. Yeah, well, yeah, I really, like, put myself through it on that one.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I could tell. And how could you not? Yeah. With the vulnerability of just wandering around with, you know, your clothes all ripped up and your hair all out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was hard. It was really hard.

[Marc Maron]

Even on set. Huh.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We would, like, it was, we would. We were filming in the, like, elements. We were outside.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

All the time.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And it was cold because we were shooting in Virginia in the middle of like the winter.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So it, so we, and, and I made a point with the director, with Casey, who I love, to just be like, whatever needs to be done to make this make sense, to make it happen.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We do it.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So if it means I. We have to shoot this in the pouring rain, in the cold, and I have a ripped up dress on me, then that's what we're going to do. If it means I have to literally wade in the water, walk in the water up to my neck in a dress and then that's what I'm going to do. Don't put a wetsuit on me because I know it actually makes it colder and she wouldn't have had a wetsuit on. So that's what we're going to do. So, you know, it was just. And I, you know, because I don't have. I think I had. There was one stunt that I wasn't allowed to do and that was jump off a bridge. Yeah, Jump off the bridge into raging waters.

[Marc Maron]

You're ready to go, though.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But yeah, everything else. That was me. Yeah, everything else is me. There's not, there's no like.

[Marc Maron]

And did it. Did you get sick?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think I was slightly depressed by the end of it all.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I really didn't know how to, like, let go of it. I didn't know how to let go of her.

[Marc Maron]

But also let go of living in. Even though it's a movie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But living in, you know, a. The reality of how people were treated of slavery.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, very hard to. I talked to Lupita Nyong'o about, you know, 12 years a slave. Not specifically, but, you know, just watching those scenes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And seeing the sort of like the entitlement of the people that bought into the system, the white people, as it. Not like the fact that there was a cutoff at all between what humanity is and isn't.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It's like it's brain bending.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And sadly, you see it now in the political world.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But that's the thing. Like the, Your, your belief. You say it's brain bending in the other direction. It is brain bending for full stop. You have to bend your brain to make yourself believe that there is a cutoff on humanity. You actually have to do that first. Like, something has. You have to believe these people are more human and these are less human.

[Marc Maron]

It's. It's. Which is crazy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Insane. It's insane and horrible.

[Marc Maron]

And has happened over and over again.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

In the history of humans.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And. And we're sort of watching it happen totally again.

[Marc Maron]

And it's just the brain fuckery that has to happen. Well, now people are so disconnected. You can just deliver the brain fuckery right to their phone. So they can just sit there and, you know, the phones are rewiring brains. I mean, racism is one thing, but expanding it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Into a belief system that shouldn't exist anymore is fucking crazy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's crazy.

[Marc Maron]

But did you grow up with much.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Of that a racism?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I live in England.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They're the best at it. Really.

[Marc Maron]

Well, they invented it kind of in the modern world.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know, I think the UK has, you know, tried its best to rectify some of it, but because of where we are, some of it is rewinding itself. We just had all those horrible, horrible riots and people were calling for people to go home and just like the worst side of humanity rearing its head. But I think the thing that gave me hope watching things like that happen is that parts of society that, let's say 50, 60 years ago would have joined in.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Said absolutely not.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Absolutely not. That's not what. We're not doing that. We don't do that here. That is not what we want.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We don't want it. Take it back. That's not we're not. This is not. We're not going back to that.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So that. I think I was really. That made me really proud to watch. And, you know, we were fast becoming that way with our government as well. And we've. And that was a big rewind, too. We've gone back to labor, which has work to do, but.

[Marc Maron]

They all have work to do. But you just want it to be manageable.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes. We can actually still move forward.

[Marc Maron]

And it's interesting because, you know, the difference between the racism. It's all racism. But I. And I've had conversations about before, but the difference between colonialism and slavery is it. And I'm just thinking about it now. You know, one brought.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Hostages, kidnapped people, and the other one just. They just took over.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And then. But the attitude's still the same. And the oppressor is still the same.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. One is quieter than the other. I think one is better at it. Right.

[Marc Maron]

Because it's happening over there.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Exactly.

[Marc Maron]

So did your mother grow up in Africa?

[Cynthia Erivo]

She. Yeah, she came to London, I think, when she was like, 24 or something.

[Marc Maron]

What part? Africa.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Nigeria.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah. Did you. Have you ever been?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I've been. The last time I went, I turned 13 on the plane back. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You have family there?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I do, but a lot of my family have passed on, so my great. My grandmother died just recently, and I have a couple aunties who are still there. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I have no sense of it. Of Africa. I. You know, I don't. When I talk to people from Africa, I'm always like, well, what is it? What's Africa?

[Cynthia Erivo]

But also, it's all different. The different places are so, so different. Like, if you.

[Marc Maron]

That's why being in America and someone goes, how's Alabama? I'm like, I've been there twice.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't know.

[Marc Maron]

Not great.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No. And I, you know, I also wish, like, I had a better sense of, like, the grander space that is Africa, because I've only been to Ghana, Nigeria, Morocco and Egypt. And I really want to go to South Africa because I have a couple of friends who live there, and I haven't been yet since.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Like, things are different.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Ish.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Ish. And I. And there's just places I want to go. Like, I want to.

[Marc Maron]

Both your parents from there.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Both my parents are from Nigeria. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah. And were you. Was there, like, culturally, when you're growing up, were there things that you. That existed in your household that were specifically from your mother's sort of coming from there?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, Yeah, I mean, like, things like food, the way we eat, like the food that we have, it's different from the food you get in London. But what's really interesting is because of the way London has sort of, like, developed, there's loads of places to get the things that we know of that you need. That we need? Yeah, we want, like, that kind of thing. So, like, there's a particular meal that I love. It's called okra soup.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But it's interesting again, the way the diaspora sort of, like, tricks us into thinking that we're really, really different. But if I have. If I go to New Orleans and get gumbo.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's very similar to okra soup.

[Marc Maron]

It all comes from the same place.

[Cynthia Erivo]

From the same place.

[Marc Maron]

You know, like music.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's like mofongo, which is Puerto Rican, with plantain, and we have.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know, yam porridge, which we mix with. It's the same. Yeah, it's exactly the same.

[Marc Maron]

It's so weird because I just talked to Joe Boyd, who's a music producer and kind of a brilliant guy. He just wrote this huge book called the Rhythm. It's literally a meditation on the roots of music.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And as you're saying what you're saying, it's similar to food. I mean, all this stuff, like, you know, it's all connected. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So already connected.

[Marc Maron]

How do you, like, how do you begin getting into music? How many. But before that, how many brothers and sisters?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I've got one sister.

[Marc Maron]

What'd she do?

[Cynthia Erivo]

She. Hers. Her sort of specialty is sports sciences. So she really wants to do restorative health using sports, using fitness, and she wants to sort of bring it to.

[Marc Maron]

People who don't like physical therapy. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's interesting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But preventing things like diabetes by making sure that people have the right fitness regime. Right.

[Marc Maron]

You know, like a nutritionist. Yeah, yeah. So how'd she get involved that. Did you grow up with medicine?

[Cynthia Erivo]

So, yeah, my mom was a nurse. Then she became. What, you. You don't have this position here, but it's called a health visitor.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And a health visitor is. It's like the bit between, let's say, kindergarten.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And birth.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So that bit in between where your kids are growing, but they can't. They're too young to go to kindergarten, and they're older than just born.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

My mom would go. Would come to your house and she would check on you and your baby up to the age of three sometimes.

[Marc Maron]

And this is provided by the state.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This is Provided by the nhs. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. We don't have anything like that and most people wouldn't be covered for it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And. And this is the thing. And it. It's one of the most incredible things because she gets to know mother and child.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She has the right to help administer any medication.

[Marc Maron]

But this is for anyone who has a child.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Anyone who has a child.

[Marc Maron]

They offer that service.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They offer. Yeah, this service, especially if the mother happens to have, like, postpartum depression or if the mother is in danger before. If the mother might have any mental health issues, my mum will come in and make sure she'll check on them before a social worker comes in. So she will have a relationship with this family to make sure baby and mother, or child and mother, especially mothers who have children before their newborn. She's like that person.

[Marc Maron]

It's an amazing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's very good at it.

[Marc Maron]

Isn't that amazing? Kind of like empathy and concern for others that, you know, it's so important and doesn't get the respect it deserves, you know?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Truly. Truly.

[Marc Maron]

So. But you weren't attracted to the sciences?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, but I was good at the sciences and so I. I felt like there was. There was like a fluke that happened and I happened to, like, love performing as well.

[Marc Maron]

Did you study, like, the. Anything with medicine or were you going to go a different direction?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was going to go into psychology because I was very good at, like, working with people and, you know, working through people's feelings.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And. But music was always my love and I started studying music, psychology. So what is that? So essentially it's the study of how music affects the psyche based on where you live or your social standing or what it can do.

[Marc Maron]

And that's a major?

[Cynthia Erivo]

That was a major, yeah. I was studying it. I started studying at university and then I think I didn't feel as stimulated as I wanted to be and I knew something was amiss. I didn't necessarily need to go to the lectures to pass an essay.

[Marc Maron]

So the levels are like community psychology, spirituality within, you know, countries, villages, towns, cities, like that kind of thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That kind of thing, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

How it keeps me together, how it breaks people apart.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, exactly.

[Marc Maron]

I think I talked a little bit about this with that guy who wrote that book.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

How that was evolved.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Exactly. And that was what I was really interested in, you know, right down to, like, the semantics of, like, note pattern, chord structure, how that. How that changes a person's mood, you know, the major minor, what difference that makes in the sound of music and how you receive it.

[Marc Maron]

And also it's interesting, I guess, if you turn that around to kind of think about like the type of person that likes exactly a certain thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

A certain thing.

[Marc Maron]

And that can lead you into.

[Cynthia Erivo]

When you start talking about classical music and what that means within social standing and elitism and things like that. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Or just people that like sad music.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Exactly.

[Marc Maron]

You have to, like. Cause it makes them feel better.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And then what does that, how does that affect the brain?

[Marc Maron]

And you're going to have to tell them they're sad.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I know, like that's. You're probably.

[Marc Maron]

You're going to have to stop listening to this for a little while.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Listening to that. Might, might be.

[Marc Maron]

So how did you. How did you decide to shift?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Whilst I was going to this, to the university to do all of this, I did like a youth program for like acting just because I still wanted to do it. And there's a theater around.

[Marc Maron]

But you always sang.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I always sang, yeah. I've been singing since I was five.

[Marc Maron]

In like, in the Catholic school and.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, in the Catholic school.

[Marc Maron]

What kind of Catholic.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We went to the place called Lara Trait. It was a Roman Catholic school.

[Marc Maron]

Do you, are you hold. Do you hold on to Catholicism?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Probably not as much now. I think it's a little. It's a little strict for me and it's slightly problematic in places. So. Yeah, I'll say, you know, so I hold my faith to be true. Like, I do believe in God.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But I don't know if. I don't know if the way I think the way I believe is slightly different to the way a Catholic might believe.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, Catholic is pretty heavy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it's heavy.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, lots of guilt. Oh my God. Well, there's lots of guilt. But like, yeah, I grew up Jewish, but I'm not that religious. And you know, there. But like, I never, until I visited Italy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

I was like, man, this is. It's like bordering on witchcraft. Oh my God. Every church you go into, there's like 100 dead wizards everywhere. It's like, how many popes were there? What is with these body parts?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It is a lot. It's intense. It's intense.

[Marc Maron]

And like those churches were built to just brain fuck the peasants.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's intense. You walk in, you're like, my mom wasn't Roman Catholic. My mom, she's Anglican, which is. Which I loved. When we went to her church, it.

[Marc Maron]

Was really like, is that the British church?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it's so much more relaxed.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it was so much more relaxed. So much more fun.

[Marc Maron]

You have the big robes and the smoke.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It wasn't really any of that, you know.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The sort of like the ceremonies. I say ceremonies, the services weren't as long, and they were just so much more open. I like.

[Marc Maron]

Did you grow up with a Hell, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think we. Well, my mom never really, like, mentioned hell. No, that's good. And I think that's. Cause she's. She was Anglican, so they don't really talk about the hell too much. I think that's more a Roman Catholic thing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. But you sort of evolved into your own sense of faith.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I think so.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And you always sang.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I always sang. And I think that's probably why I've held onto that sense of faith. Because I know there's a weird sense of connection. And it's hard to describe what it is when I sing with people.

[Marc Maron]

Singing, to me is the most vulnerable of things.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Correct.

[Marc Maron]

It is. And I just know that from personal experience, because I was so terrified of it. I've overcome that in the last five years to sing publicly, but to me, it's sort of like. I don't even know why it's so loaded. But the risk of. Of not being received singing is just terrifying.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's just. It's a really. You have to be open when you do it. Like, literally, you're as open as you possibly can be to anyone who's around when you're singing because who knows? You don't know how they'll receive your voice. There are waves, sound waves, literally coming out of you that you have to mold and shape.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So you're doing that. Your body and your brain and your mind and your vocal cords are doing something that have to work in complete harmony. And sometimes they might not work in harmony. So you don't know when that will happen. You kind of have to just go with it. Doesn't matter how much practice or how good you are. There are days when it just won't work as well as you want it to work. And you have to sort of be like, well, okay, okay. If that happens, that happens.

[Marc Maron]

And then you gotta take the risk.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And then you add on to it. If you. If you're singing something that means something to you that you know is really emotionally connected, you're giving that piece of yourself to other people and you hope that they'll. They'll accept it. And you don't know if they will. And if. But there's chances.

[Marc Maron]

You gotta detach from that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Yeah. But if they do, that's Also really vulnerable because you're like, oh, I don't know how you're. You're connecting to it, but.

[Marc Maron]

But you can feel it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I can feel it.

[Marc Maron]

And you just. Then you have to try not to cry.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And that sometimes is impossible.

[Marc Maron]

It is, right? Yeah, it's so. It's weird because, you know, in that weird movie, Bad Times at the El Radio, you actually go through that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

As a singer, you can see everything. You were just talking about.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

The vulnerability of not knowing you're being watched and then working on it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then when you cross over, you know, post, you know, not dying.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Then you fully realize your voice.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But it's all in that movie. Of all the movies.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I know. Isn't it crazy?

[Marc Maron]

But it's like literally explored like that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

The other ones, you're just like. You're singing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So it's interesting that, you know, when people make assumptions about musical actors.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

The assumption is that like, well, now they gotta learn how to act. And it's like people don't realize that when you're a musical actor.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

You have to do two things to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Do two things at the same time.

[Marc Maron]

Like, and it's. You're. You're acting almost harder and more intensely.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, correct.

[Marc Maron]

Than anything's gonna be like in a one on one thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It's. Cause it's gotta be huge. But also intimate. It's crazy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it was. It was insane. And I. So Right. Right out of Color Purple, I did widows with Steve McQueen, then I did Bad Times and then I did a Harriet. It was insane.

[Marc Maron]

Nice range, though.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But so where'd you study the acting? You study at the big place. Right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

At the big place. Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So when you got in, were you like, what?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, because I didn't audition for anywhere else and I didn't. That wasn't the intention. The intention at the beginning was not to go to drama school because I just didn't know that I really even had the chance to do that.

[Marc Maron]

To act.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. No one. No one.

[Marc Maron]

You knew you could sing?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I knew I could and no. But no one had said to me, hey, there are these places you can go to. To act, to hone your skills. You can do that. And nobody said it to me until I did this little like youth acting program at the. At the theater.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And that's where I bumped into a really cool woman who ended up being like a mentor for a while. Her name is Ray McKenn, and she had run a young Acting Company at the Young Vic, like, five years before this.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Where we did, like, a version of Romeo and Juliet. And I played Juliet and I didn't see her until that day. Yeah, that. When I was about to go and do the Young Actors Company at the theater. And she. I met her at the. This. It was at a theater. And I met her at the foyer at the ticket office. And she was like, oh, you're doing this? I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna do this. And she was like, well, I'm running it. I can't believe you run. This is amazing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She goes, yeah, you can't come unless you're gonna go to drama school. I think you should train. I said, what do you mean, train? What do you mean, train? She said, well, you should go to drama school. What do you mean? Drum.

[Marc Maron]

What? He had no sense.

[Cynthia Erivo]

What are you talking about?

[Marc Maron]

You really had no sense.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No idea. Yeah, I think you should go to drama school. I think you should go to this place called the Royal Academy of Drag. She called it Rada First. I was like, what the heck is rada? She was the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. No, I'm not going.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She said, why is it. I'm not going to get in. Why would I go to the. It's literally called the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. I'm not going to a place that is called that. I'm not going to get in. There's no way. She said, you. You should apply, and I think you have a chance of getting in. I was like, I'm not. I'm not going. That's that. She said, okay, fine, then you can't come and do this. You can't do this. Actor's company.

[Marc Maron]

She called you on it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She called me on it, yeah. She wouldn't let me go to this thing unless I applied for the school. And what was the audition when I went? It was four rounds of audition. The first round you went, you prepared two speeches from two different shows. One Shakespeare, one modern.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I did a piece from A Winter's Tale. The character's called Hermione. And then a piece from a play called the Colored Museum.

[Marc Maron]

Did she coach you?

[Cynthia Erivo]

She did. She coached me. I did that. It worked to my surprise.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I got through to the second round.

[Marc Maron]

And you got to do two different ones.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, you do. Well, you. You now prepare a third, just in case.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And you prepare an unaccompanied song.

[Marc Maron]

So you knew you're gonna nail that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, yeah, but I was also, like, what do I do? That just feels, like, cool and different and I can, like, emote and, like, tell stories through. She was like, well, you can do. Why don't we try A Fine Line from Avenue Q? So we did. There's a Fine Line from Avenue Q. And I think I redid the speech by Hermione.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then the third round, they put you into groups where you have to prepare a speech.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And this time you have to prepare the third speech. So I did Emilia from Othello, I think it was. Yes. Amelia from Othello. And then they sort of watch you in groups and see how you are with groups, how you work with people. And in the fourth round, those people who get through to the fourth round do their speech in front of the faculty and the rest of the auditionees.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, wow.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And the day I did my speech in front of everyone, there was another girl, I remember her name is Naomi, who had the same speech as me. And when she went up, she froze. And she did the same. She had the same speech. And so I fed her the lines. So we were sort of back and forth for a little bit, feeding, until she got. Until she was. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, that's sweet.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And we both got in. You did?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Thank God.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

She didn't get in.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was so happy to see her. I was the one person. I was like, oh, my goodness, I hope she gets in. Please let her get in, because that's a good moment for both of us here. That was a good moment for her, too.

[Marc Maron]

Did you, like. Was it one of those moments where, like, everyone in the room was like, oh, yeah. And then you just spoke up, just.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Just gave her the line. Why wouldn't I? We have the same speech. I would have looked crazy if I didn't. I would have felt crazy. Yeah. I wasn't going to let her freeze out there. No.

[Marc Maron]

That was good.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. It was such a good moment. It was also so, like, felt good to just be like, oh, this is what it could be.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You take the line. You know what I mean? It was just like. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

How are you with Shakespeare in general?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I love Shakespeare. I haven't had the chance to do it on film or on stage, and that's what I studied. So I would love. I would love the opportunity to do it at some point.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I think you'll get it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think so. I'd love to.

[Marc Maron]

So after Radha, you just start doing the musicals?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I just start doing plays and musicals. The first thing I did out of Radha was like, a little Play with music in it. Because it wasn't really a musical. It just was a play. Was it Willie Nelson that wrote the music?

[Marc Maron]

Maybe.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think it was Willie Nelson that wrote the music.

[Marc Maron]

Those are pretty songs.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, they were pretty songs.

[Marc Maron]

They were. And so when you did what was the first big theater musical?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Umbrellas of Cherbourg in a West End theater. That didn't last for very long, but it was fun to do.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And it was the reason I got my next thing, which was like a big old UK tour of Sister Act.

[Marc Maron]

That must have been fun.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was crazy and fun.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And wild. We were exhausted all the time. Lots of music to sing, lots of things to do. Everybody was crazy. UK tours are so interesting because you don't really know what you're walking into until you walk into the theater. And you don't really know what you're walking into until you walk into wherever you've decided to stay. Because the pictures that they give you about where you're supposed to stay never match where you're staying unless they. And sometimes you look out and they really do match. Other times they really don't, and you're stuck, and you're like, I'm.

[Marc Maron]

For what, a month?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's bad.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it can be bad.

[Marc Maron]

But by the time you get the Color Purple, I imagine you're staying at nice places.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Well, by the time we got to Color Purple, I was back in London, because the first time I did the Color Purple, it was. We did a little stint of it at the Meniere Chocolate Factory in London, and I was at home again, which is fine. And when we. And obviously when we came to Broadway, it was lovely. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So that. The part of Sealy, right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like, hot man. I interviewed the. The guy who directed the movie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, Blitz.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. Good guy. And I like that movie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I thought he did a good job.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Did you?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I thought they did a good job. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I went to a screening for Friends and Family, and so much of the cast from the original production.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Wow, wow, wow.

[Marc Maron]

On Broadway was there, and it was so overwhelming.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Like, I didn't get that invite.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's all right.

[Marc Maron]

It feels like there's a little tension.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, I don't know why, though.

[Marc Maron]

No, I don't know. I don't either. Why were you up for the part?

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's a long, complicated conversation you probably shouldn't even get into.

[Marc Maron]

Well, there's your answer. Why?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Lord knows why.

[Marc Maron]

But, you know, but to do that Part at all.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's. That's weight.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, that. That is, you know, in that I imagine on some level, you know, prepared you for all of that, but it certainly prepares you for Harriet.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just was like a. It's one of those roles and because, you know, it's eight shows a week.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I think we did over 400 shows. It ran for 14 months.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So you knew it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I knew it like the back of my hand.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And. Yeah, I just. I remember I said to someone after, like, time, 400 or something.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You get called ugly on stage. The line stops. The line between and. And the unreality and the character. I mean, before time, 400, before show, 400, the line's already kind of gone.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because your body starts to do whatever it needs to to get to where it needs to faster.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So you stop. It becomes really thin. The veil becomes really, really, really thin. And so it stops being the characters being called this, and it starts being. You are, and you start feeling it. You start believing it. And it's really hard every day to do that, you know?

[Marc Maron]

So, like, there, in some ways, sadly, I guess, a type of honesty starts to happen.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Really, that is too taxing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It happens early because if you. If you're lucky enough to run for six months, that's a good run.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But we run for 14.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So for me, and. Because I really. I really try to be as honest as I can. Whatever I'm doing.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because I. Because I want to believe myself as well. I. Not just. I want the watcher to believe it, and I want them to. To connect. I think the only way a person can connect is if it's coming from an honest place.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. If you want it to be a real connection.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Exactly. So whenever. To be able to sing, I'm here. And to get to a place where you can say, I'm beautiful, you have to believe to some degree that that isn't the truth. Until you. Until you believe it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You have to make yourself believe it.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And so for me, doing that show, after, like, four months, it starts to. Everything started to wear race. So you're sort of like, I'm just being as honest as I can. I'm not myself, but I am funneling all of my things.

[Marc Maron]

You're feeling it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

In a personal way. Yeah, yeah. And you don't have control over it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I had a complete, like, breakdown one night on stage. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

What?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Yeah. Total breakdown.

[Marc Maron]

And like, everyone. It was tangible.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It Was very tangible. I was lucky because Isaiah, who was playing Mr. At that point, noticed immediately and just stared into my eyes and like, mouthed, I'm right here. I'm here. You're okay.

[Marc Maron]

What were you doing? What were you feeling?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't. I don't even know. It was just like the strangest experience of Just like. I was like, not even where am I? But, like the hurt, any hurt that I was feeling as this character cut through me as well, deeply. And I couldn't get words out.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, no.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And it wasn't. I hadn't forgotten the words. I just couldn't say them.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I just couldn't find. I could. I didn't have the. My. My voice had gone away so well.

[Marc Maron]

So maybe it was like you. As. You.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Wouldn't be able to do it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That. It was so insane. It was like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know. You know when, let's say if you're just, like, playing something and all of a sudden someone ripped the character out from underneath you and you're on stage, it was like I realized I was on stage at that point and I realized that I was saying these words and like, I was. I was there. Cynthia was there.

[Marc Maron]

Unprotected.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Unprotected.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I had, like. There was no. There was no coverage.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was like.

[Marc Maron]

And so he, like, he reeled you back in.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And you got back on.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my God.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The wildest, most horrid, most, I guess, opening experience I've ever had.

[Marc Maron]

Was it opening?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, because it meant that. Because.

[Marc Maron]

Oh. Not opening night. Just for you as a person.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, just for me as a person. Cause it was like, oh, you are telling the truth. Which is good.

[Marc Maron]

Sometimes when you think about acting, you think it's acting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But in order, you gotta put yourself out there to get to the truth of the scene. I mean, you can get away with it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know what I mean? But it's the difference.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, if you're going to show that vulnerability, you don't know how it's going to be received.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right, right, right.

[Marc Maron]

And I think if you're self conscious, you're like, well, why even make that an option?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

You know, it's not about money. It's not about, you know, putting on a show. It's about, you know, seeking the truth.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Correct.

[Marc Maron]

In the moment of that. In that scene or in that story. I mean, once you do that, once you're like, you can't go back.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, no, no.

[Marc Maron]

That's good.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You just want to keep building you keep. You want to keep finding that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. On the spectrum of that, anyways. Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So when you do something like. Because I saw Wicked, you know, I went to a screening with a bunch of people. I don't know the show. Like, I like musicals, but I don't seek them out. But every time I go, like, I'm crying. I don't know why, but it's quite a spectacle.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And again, I have to assume that, you know, it's lighter in the sense of, like, you know, you're green, not black, but you're still. All of. It's informed by similar stuff. So had you done that show on stage?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I had not, no.

[Marc Maron]

And what was your experience with doing it? Did you love the show?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I did love the show, actually. I really loved the show, and I think I. I connected with the idea that someone who was different could be ostracized because of it. And so when I was asked to do it, when I, you know, when I finally was told that that was. That I could, you know, I. A part of me was like, how do I. Because I. You know, you want to make sure that you're paying homage to the thing that exists already. But also, I really wanted to be able to inform it with my experience.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because I do live in the skin, and I know what it's like to be the only person in the room who looks like this. And I know what it is like to have people be like, okay, you know, that kind of thing. So I wanted to make sure that that could be funneled through this particular character. And the experience was, like. It was tough sometimes. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

In what way? For you? Or just in terms of the director or.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, no. John is incredible.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

John was incredible.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But for this particular character's journey is hard. She has to figure some stuff out on her own. She has to, quickly. Yeah. And she has to. She experiences a lot of loneliness, a lot of ostracization, if that's a word.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then has to figure out how to accept herself and then accept the things that other people won't. She, you know, finds these relationships that I don't think she even expects to have.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it's fortunate that your magic.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes. But even that comes at a price.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. For her.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Even for her, it's like her magic doesn't really expand until she allows herself to be the thing that people don't want her to be.

[Marc Maron]

But I don't know the show how much was different, because it seems to be informed in a lot of ways. With politics to a certain degree.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. So that comes from the book.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Gregory Maguire wrote a book that was actually very political. Yeah. And I think that's probably what is coming through in the book. The musical has a small amount, but not as much as the movie, I think. But that's because we have the space now to combine both the beauty of the stage and the book. And I think that is actually what allows us to, like, tell a fuller story.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I think that's why it feels quite political, because that's how he wrote it, really.

[Marc Maron]

It's political in the sense not. You know, not to alienate anybody, but it's political in the sense of just the fundamentals of, like, I don't. I guess you would call it. It's not quite fascism, but it's how people in power lock into creating victims for the sake of building a mass ideology to maintain power.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Correct. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And it's with the talking animals. And you're the champion of the talking animals. And that becomes. Because I would never. Having ever seen the show, I'm like, oh, so the witch was good, you know.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Mm.

[Marc Maron]

She wasn't always horrible.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. It's like, what forces a person into being the way they are. Yeah. And I thought two things are being discussed at the same time. Like what turning a person or creating a villain or creating a common enemy.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And what pushes that person into that space in the first place? Like, at some point, she accepts that her role.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I was totally engaged, and I can't believe there's another one. I did get to the point where I'm like, you know, like this. They're not even going to finish it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like, we Will we go second one.

[Marc Maron]

No, I know, I know. But, like, I'm like. But I just. Like, I was here the whole time. Now I gotta wait.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my gosh. You wanted the second one straight away.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I would have liked, maybe ate something. Taken a breather. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I love that.

[Marc Maron]

I want the rest of the story.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's coming. You'll be. Look, you'll be so surprised about how fast another year will go.

[Marc Maron]

Did you shoot it already?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it's shot.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, it's all done.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's ready.

[Marc Maron]

Did you do it all?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's not ready, but it's shot.

[Marc Maron]

But you did it all at once in the same.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, we did it all at once. Insane.

[Marc Maron]

Wow.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

How long. How long did you shoot that? Like, over a year.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. So we started rehearsals in August 2022. We started shooting December 2022. We finished well, we went until June or July 23. We went on strike. Everyone on strike. So we had to wait a while and we came back top of this year and finished in February.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So that's great.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it's been some time and people love that show.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So they're going to come out and see it. Yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So, yeah, I love it. I'm really proud of it.

[Marc Maron]

But how did you and Ariana get along?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I love her.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, man, she's a good. She's a good egg.

[Marc Maron]

Great performer, man. Yeah, like, she's so good. Yeah, like, she really does that thing. Really.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's like a little Lucille Ball.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, she's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's phenomenal. I'm really, really proud of her, actually.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. I was surprised and excited and, you know, it had enough stuff in there, like. And I guess it was always the nature of the musical like these. Because with a musical it really has to appeal to like all ages and there's enough there for everybody.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like there's definitely stuff in there that kids aren't gonna quite get.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, correct.

[Marc Maron]

It's so weird when you really look at that, like, not just the musicals you've done, but almost all these great musicals. It's like there's some dark shit.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like depth.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it's definitely there.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, great job.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

And it was nice talking to you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You too. You too. Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

I enjoyed that conversation. Talented person. Wicked is in theaters this Friday. Hang out for a minute. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money. When you bundle your home and auto policies, the process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states, people. Five years ago today, we posted my conversation with another Broadway star, Nathan lane. It's episode 1072 and yes, Nathan, it was a great talk. I did a lot of research before this. Yeah, yeah. So I, you know, and I'm familiar with your standup. I'm a fan of your stand up. Oh. Oh, you did research on me?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, okay. What'd you come up with? So here's the. Here's what I saw. Are we recording yet? Sure, we've been recording. Yes. Oh, so. And I noticed on your Twitter account. I'm very. So I'm not doing that a lot, but you have a picture of your guests. I do that. And you fill people in on who they are, what they've done, the topics. And then at the end, it says, good talk, good talk. But in some, it says, great talk. And I thought. Now he's given some thought to that. And I. So I thought, because I have a. I'm emotionally fragile. I'll be looking. I'll be looking to see if I got good talk or great talk. Now if you gave me a great fucking talk. Yeah, I would be. Yeah. Thrilled. I could. I could get by for the next week. No one has ever called me on that. But you're. You're. You're right in. In assuming that there is, you know, Danny DeVito. Got a great talk. Woody Harrelson, good talk. Good, good. Didn't change my life. Didn't. I? Never cried, but it was good. Well, I can tell you it was nice. Yeah, no, it was good. It was good. Again, a great talk with Nathan lane on episode 1072. And you can listen to that for free right now, wherever you are listening to this episode. If you want all WTF episodes ad free, sign up for wtf. Go to the link in the episode description to subscribe or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. Here's some looped thing I did, all right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Sa Sa.

[Marc Maron]

Boomer lives Monkey and Lafonda Cat Angels everywhere.