Episode 1602 - Bruce Vilanch - WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

Summary6 min read

WTF with Marc Maron: Episode 1602 – Bruce Vilanch

In Episode 1602 of the WTF with Marc Maron, host Marc Maron engages in an in-depth conversation with the legendary comedian, writer, and LGBTQ+ activist, Bruce Vilanch. This episode offers a comprehensive look into Vilanch's extensive career in comedy writing, his experiences within the evolving landscape of show business, and his passionate activism for LGBTQ+ rights. Below is a detailed summary of their enlightening dialogue.

Introduction to Bruce Vilanch

Marc Maron opens the episode with introspective reflections on the holiday season's impact on his mood and social interactions. Transitioning smoothly, he introduces Bruce Vilanch, highlighting his reputation as an "old school" comedian known for his distinctive mop-top blonde haircut and colorful glasses. Maron sets the tone for a conversation that promises a deep dive into Vilanch’s storied career.

Notable Quote:

"He's a very funny guy in a very old school way and he's been around a lot of years and he had a lot of great stories about the evolution from writing for club entertainers and then into variety shows and then into writing for comics and writing for the Oscars." — Mark Maron [04:10]

Early Life and Career Beginnings

Bruce Vilanch recounts his upbringing in Patterson, New Jersey, a rural area that was among the first of the suburbs. He shares anecdotes about his family's involvement in the textile industry and the environmental impacts they witnessed, such as dye being dumped into the Mosaic River.

Vilanch’s early interest in performance is evident through his mother's aspirations to be a showgirl and his own foray into child acting. He describes attending a camp run by Ted Mack, the "Simon Cowell of his day," which fostered his love for performing and writing. His time as a child actor included summer stock performances and working in his father’s optometry office, where he developed an affinity for glasses—a trademark look that persists today.

Notable Quote:

"I was a homosexual professional." — Bruce Vilanch [69:55]

Transition into Comedy Writing

Vilanch transitioned from acting to writing, beginning with contributions to his high school newspaper where he honed his skills in journalism and theater at Ohio State University. Despite the challenges of the Vietnam War era, he managed to balance his studies with burgeoning interests in comedy and performance.

After graduating, Vilanch moved to Chicago, securing a position at the Chicago Tribune. Here, he leveraged his writing talents by crafting humorous pieces and performing one-liners at local clubs, notably Punchinello's. This period was pivotal, allowing Vilanch to network with emerging talents like Bette Midler and contribute to the vibrant Chicago comedy scene.

Notable Quote:

"The truth of the matter is this last year I just have to see it in terms of whatever my goals were or whatever I wanted to do." — Mark Maron [04:30]

Collaborations with Celebrities

Vilanch’s collaboration with Bette Midler stands out as a cornerstone of his career. Starting as a television critic, he developed a rapport with Midler, writing topical humor for her performances. Their partnership expanded to include co-writing comedic segments for her shows and collaborating on projects that blended music and comedy. Vilanch also worked with other notable figures such as Lily Tomlin, George Carlin, and Robin Williams, providing tailored humor that matched each performer's unique style.

He recounts specific instances, such as writing for Roseanne Barr early in her career and contributing to special events like Comic Relief, showcasing his versatility and deep understanding of comedic timing and audience engagement.

Notable Quote:

"A lot of people heard and they began calling me and asking me to work for them." — Bruce Vilanch [34:31]

Work on Variety Shows and The Oscars

Bruce Vilanch’s tenure as the head writer for the Academy Awards is a significant highlight. He delves into the complexities of writing for live television events, balancing humor with the prestige of the Oscars. Vilanch discusses the challenges of maintaining quality under tight budgets and the constant need to innovate in a fragmented entertainment landscape.

He shares behind-the-scenes stories about memorable Oscar moments, including the infamous Rob Lowe Snow White dance number and the mishaps that followed, such as Disney’s lawsuit over the use of Snow White. These anecdotes illustrate the high-stakes environment of live showwriting and the unpredictable nature of television production.

Notable Quote:

"The first Oscar show had no host. It was the Notorious Snow White Rob Lowe show. And that was a guy named Alan Carr producing a very flimsy." — Bruce Vilanch [60:06]

Reflections on Show Business Evolution

Maron and Vilanch reflect on the transformation of show business from a tightly-knit community to a sprawling, fragmented industry. Vilanch emphasizes how the rise of cable, the internet, and reality television has diluted the communal aspect of entertainment that once made events like the Oscars feel intimate and cohesive.

He contrasts the golden age of variety shows and close celebrity networks with today’s vast and diverse media landscape, where personal connections and unified industry rhythms have lessened. This shift, Vilanch suggests, has impacted the quality and authenticity of live events and comedic performances.

Notable Quote:

"Everything so far that represents, it's all fragmented now." — Mark Maron [28:34]

Personal Life and Activism

Beyond his professional achievements, Vilanch is a prominent LGBTQ+ activist. He discusses his journey of coming out, particularly during the AIDS crisis, and how the fight for survival galvanized the community’s push for equality and acceptance. Vilanch underscores the importance of vigilance in protecting LGBTQ+ rights, drawing parallels to ongoing political battles.

His activism is deeply intertwined with his work in show business, using his platform to advocate for marginalized communities and leverage entertainment as a means of social change.

Notable Quote:

"AIDS showed how much we weren't. And of course that led to marriage equality because the only way we could really." — Bruce Vilanch [70:34]

Current Projects and Future Endeavors

Bruce Vilanch remains active in the entertainment industry, recently venturing into podcasting with his own show, "Oscars: What Were They Thinking?". Co-hosted with Adam Davis, the podcast dissects historical Oscar events, analyzing why certain films won over others, often spotlighting surprising outcomes.

In addition to podcasting, Vilanch is writing a book titled "I Wrote the Worst TV Shows in History: It Seemed Like a Bad Idea at the Time", slated for release on March 4th. The book promises an insider’s critique of notoriously poor television productions, blending humor with candid reflections.

Vilanch is also expanding into musical theater, collaborating with Dolly Parton on "Here Youe Come Again How Dolly Saved my life in 12 easy songs", a show that has seen success in regional productions and London’s Riverside Studios. His ventures demonstrate his enduring creativity and ability to adapt to new mediums.

Notable Quote:

"It's called 'Here youe Come Again How Dolly Saved my life in 12 easy songs.' And we did five regional productions here and then we toured the UK for six months and now we're in London. It's a hit." — Bruce Vilanch [73:02]

Conclusion

Episode 1602 of WTF with Marc Maron offers a rich and engaging exploration of Bruce Vilanch's multifaceted career and his significant contributions to comedy writing and LGBTQ+ activism. Through personal anecdotes, professional insights, and reflective conversations, Vilanch provides listeners with an intimate look at the evolution of show business and the enduring power of humor and resilience.

Notable Quote:

"But I am being optimistic. I don't see somebody saying to Pete Buttigieg that his marriage doesn't exist anymore. I mean, when you're in high levels of office already, I mean, even though he will not be at this January, but it seems to me that more people know gay couples who are married than ever did before." — Bruce Vilanch [71:43]

This episode serves as a testament to Bruce Vilanch’s enduring legacy in the entertainment industry and his unwavering commitment to social advocacy. Listeners gain valuable insights into the complexities of comedy writing, the shifts within the entertainment landscape, and the importance of activism in fostering an inclusive society.

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Transcript741 lines

[00:00]
Mark Maron
Lock the gate. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the. What the Buddies? What the fuckers? What the nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. It's that time of year. I hope. I hope you're holding up. I hope everything's coming together. I hope you're getting into the mode, locked into the rhythm, locked into the vibe. If you have a family, I hope all the gifts are coming together. I hope you're fortifying your brain and buttressing yourself for what's to come. I hope you've got your lies in order to keep everybody happy. I don't know. I don't pay much attention to it. You know, I don't have kids, and. And I don't know when Hanukkah starts. That's this week, too. I'm a bad Jew, but a Jew nonetheless. And I don't really know why I don't register it other than, like, why is everything so quiet? Why is everything so. So slow? What's happening out there? Why am I not. What is going on? Is everyone okay? How come no one's texting me or calling me or. Or including me in the thing? But that's happening on all levels right now. I don't know if it's my brain or if it's real, but I don't know what happens during this time. This is a weird few weeks, the sort of Christmas to New Year's, even just post Thanksgiving. It gets me into a zone. I don't know if it's pensive or thoughtful or depressed. Now I'm going to go with pensive and thoughtful, which at times can feel like depression, depending on what you're being penalized and thoughtful about. But everything just sort of changes and slows down, and the air feels heavy. The weight of the atmosphere kind of feels heavy, but I like it. There's a poetry to it all. And I'm going to go out and sit in New Mexico and feel that. Be pensive and thoughtful, but not depressed. I'm going to reframe that. It's not depression, God damn it. It's today on the show is Bruce Valanch. I guess he's best known as a comedy writer. He's specifically the. The guy who was the head writer for the Academy Awards. He was on Hollywood Squares a lot. He wrote for dozens of comedians and singers and variety shows. But I just remember him seemingly throughout my entire life as just this haircut and glasses. It's very specific it doesn't change. He had them when he was here. But, but it was just, it's a haircut specific and glasses. I don't know what you would call the haircut. It's sort of a mop top blonde. And he usually wears very colorful glasses. But he's a very funny guy in a very old school way and he's been around a lot of years and he had a lot of great stories about the evolution from, you know, writing for club entertainers and then into variety shows and then into writing for comics and writing for the Oscars, old time stuff. And it, it's great. I love talking to these guys because they. It's a different time. It was a different time when show business and comedy was innately Jewish in its rhythm and in its practitioners. And now it's. It's hard to find a Jew around. You know, I don't know where they're all going, but the entire sort of spectrum of comedy has gotten more diverse and eclectic and interesting. But it just seems as show business contracts, so does the sort of rhythm of the Jews of yore. My 2025 tour kicks off in Sacramento, California at the Kress Theater on Friday, January 10th. I'm at the Napa Uptown Theater on Saturday, January 11th. Fort Collins, Colorado Lincoln Center Performance hall on Friday, January 17th. Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theater on Saturday, January 16th. Santa Barbara, California, the Lobero Theater on Thursday, January 30th. San Luis Obispo at the Fremont center on Friday, January 31st. Monterey, California at the Golden State Theater on Saturday, February 1st. And then I'm coming to Iowa, Missouri, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Texas, South Carolina, Illinois and Michigan. Going to be adding some dates in the Northeast as I head into recording a special. You can go to wtfpod.com tour for all my dates and links to tickets. Yes. So I'm just trying to. I'm coming down, man. I have to frame things properly. I don't know if you have that issue, but if I have a little bit of free time, I'm going to think I'm not doing enough or I'm not good at what I'm doing, or that I'm over or that I'm not creative anymore.
[04:53]
Bruce Valanch
I'm going.
[04:54]
Mark Maron
I have a full list of things I go to that I can use as bats to beat the shit out of myself when I have any sort of downtime. But the truth of the matter is this last year I just have to see it in terms of whatever my goals were or whatever I wanted to do. Or saw in my life at some point that I would like to do and acknowledge what has happened, what went on this year. I had to put my tour on hold a while back because I did some acting and I wanted to do acting. And it was important to me to sort of figure out whether that's something I want to do with my life, whether I enjoy it, whether I'm good at it and whatnot. It's creative and it's something that, you know, I was curious about. So this year, it just seems that I was doing that. And it's not that comedy took a backseat or just was that I wasn't doing it. I was, but I wasn't doing it compulsively and constantly like I always do. But I was doing this other thing. And I just got back from New York after shooting that, that part in the Bruce Springsteen movie. I gotta say, it was really kind of great having a bit of an in with the Boss, because I interviewed him to sort of come out of the set, and if I felt like it, or if I felt like it was okay to sit down next to Bruce Springsteen and chit chat, I want to say again what an amazing experience that was because you look at the scope of that guy's work as an artist, and he is a real artist, and to just hang out with him as a person, as an older person, and just kind of be in the light, the dark light of Bruce Springsteen was quite something. So the meat, look, I feel okay, you know, I feel all right. The vegan thing has been going on almost two years, and I don't know, I saw some reel on Instagram of some Armenian ghost kitchen that was doing some sort of brisket that looked like some kind of Armenian pastrami. Sure enough, it was some form of fucking barbecue. That was going to make me start thinking, man, that's going to be what I eat when I eat the meat. But I pulled back from it. Today's episode is sponsored by Squarespace. We've been telling you for years that the best way to create a beautiful website is with Squarespace. And now there are even more Squarespace features that will help you build your online presence. You get design intelligence from Squarespace, which combines all the platform tools that make Squarespace great. With cutting edge AI technology to unlock your strongest creative potential, anyone can build a beautiful, more personalized website tailored to their unique needs. There's also Squarespace payments get started in just a few clicks and start receiving payments right away. While your customers get more ways to pay using the Most popular payment methods connect major social and multimedia accounts to your website in a few clicks as icons, direct links, or embedded feeds. Check out wtfpod.com to see a website powered by Squarespace, go to squarespace.com WTF for a free trial. And when you're ready to Launch, offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com WTF? Offer code WTF. All right. Okay, let's talk to funny guy. Let's have some fun. So, happy holidays and I'm excited to share this conversation with you. Bruce Valanche has a new podcast called Oscars, what Were they Thinking? Which you can get on all podcast platforms. He's a real deal funny guy, comedy writer, a lot of experience, a lot of stories. This is me talking to Bruce Valanch. Well, how are you adapting to the world? How's the swell adaptation?
[09:08]
Bruce Valanch
I got rid of my fins.
[09:10]
Mark Maron
But it gets to a point, right, where you're just sort of like, you just. You live the life you live and fuck it.
[09:15]
Bruce Valanch
That's exactly right. There's nothing else you can do. I mean, I would try, but try to keep up, you know, like everybody else. Hello, Portugal. All of my seven, you know, figure friends are going to Portugal.
[09:30]
Mark Maron
Are they?
[09:31]
Bruce Valanch
No, a few. I mean, but that started a while back. That started in.
[09:35]
Mark Maron
Right, that was the you can buy your way in business.
[09:37]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, right.
[09:38]
Mark Maron
I mean, I thought about that. Not that I necessarily have the money, but, I mean, I don't know anyone in fucking Portugal. I don't speak the language. I don't even know what they eat there.
[09:45]
Bruce Valanch
Exactly. Right.
[09:45]
Mark Maron
So the amount of loneliness available for me in Portugal is, you know, relative to the amount of discomfort I'll feel in authoritarianism. And I'll take our TV stations.
[09:55]
Bruce Valanch
Exactly.
[09:55]
Mark Maron
I'll take the streaming.
[09:56]
Bruce Valanch
Most of the people I know in Portugal live online. Is that true? Oh, yeah.
[10:01]
Mark Maron
What else they can do? They don't know.
[10:02]
Bruce Valanch
Well, they don't speak Portuguese and they're, you know, they're expats. But it's not like, you know, Paris in the twenties, I don't think.
[10:10]
Mark Maron
No, I mean, they're probably up in a via.
[10:12]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, right.
[10:12]
Mark Maron
And they're sitting in a room.
[10:13]
Bruce Valanch
Well, they wind up going to the Algarve and Porto and places where the tourists go. Or a lot of California people move to Porto. Right. Like in 16.
[10:23]
Mark Maron
Well, that sounds like a nice week.
[10:26]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No, I'm, you know, I'm interested. I'm staying here and Fighting the fight for whatever that. Whatever that means, whatever that's worth.
[10:34]
Mark Maron
What does that mean to you?
[10:35]
Bruce Valanch
Well, you know, I mean, I'm a gay activist, I suppose. I mean, I'm a gay icon, so I might as well be an activist.
[10:41]
Mark Maron
And it's on you to do that?
[10:43]
Bruce Valanch
Well, yeah, you know, there has to be a loyal opposition and there has to be a resistance. And so, you know, I'm happy to be a part of it.
[10:51]
Mark Maron
Isn't that interesting, though, that, you know, there are certain groups, groups, I guess you would call them marginalized groups that have built their entire communities on resistance. So the idea of locking into a more active resistance is, you would think, muscle memory.
[11:06]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And it's always when religion gets involved, when a government is being motivated by religion, it's always bad for people who aren't religious.
[11:19]
Mark Maron
Right.
[11:20]
Bruce Valanch
Which is, of course, the whole idea of America was religious people created a place for people who were not religious as well as people who are the people that are.
[11:28]
Mark Maron
Were always kind of full on whack jobs.
[11:30]
Bruce Valanch
Exactly, exactly.
[11:32]
Mark Maron
But do you sense like, you know, I, you know, when you were coming over, I, you know, I'm 61, so somehow or another, your head has been familiar to me my entire life.
[11:45]
Bruce Valanch
Wow.
[11:45]
Mark Maron
One place or the other, you know, mostly on television, of course.
[11:49]
Bruce Valanch
You know, that's what I tell people.
[11:50]
Mark Maron
I don't know you personally.
[11:51]
Bruce Valanch
Hollywood Squares. I was to the left of Whoopi, if that's possible.
[11:54]
Mark Maron
But that was. Which version of Hollywood Squares was the whoopee version?
[11:58]
Bruce Valanch
The iteration. The late 90s, from, like 96 to 2002. Tom Bergeron was the host.
[12:04]
Mark Maron
I just remember Paul Lynn in that square from when I was a kid. It just seemed, I guess what I want to talk to you about, it seemed like when I was a kid, and I don't know if it was relative to me being a kid, that show business was a fun little town, that young people seem to know each other. And these guys, the people that you saw in show business, even on the roasts then, they all seemed to live around the corner from each other, and we all knew who they were.
[12:28]
Bruce Valanch
It's true. It was a much smaller universe.
[12:31]
Mark Maron
Yeah. And I remember seeing some of the shows you wrote for, like, what, Sonny and Cher and. Did you write for Tony Orlando? No, no, that was the one.
[12:42]
Bruce Valanch
That was one I did. I was doing another show that. That summer that Fred Silverman, who ran CBS at the time, he ra networks at one point. Wow. Individually, I was hoping he'd take over PBS to see what he would do there. But he believed. He believed in the. The group host format.
[13:00]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[13:00]
Bruce Valanch
Donnie and Marie, Sonny and Cher, Tony Orlando. Andor and I came out here with Manhattan Transfer and we did a summer series and Tony Orlando was across the hall.
[13:09]
Mark Maron
And the Manhattan Transfer. That's what got you to la?
[13:12]
Bruce Valanch
That got me to la.
[13:13]
Mark Maron
Okay, so let's go back then. So where you grow up?
[13:15]
Bruce Valanch
Patterson, New Jersey.
[13:16]
Mark Maron
I know Patterson.
[13:17]
Bruce Valanch
You do?
[13:18]
Mark Maron
Sure. I grew up in. My grandmother lived in Pompton Lakes.
[13:21]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, that's right. Yes. It was very rural when I was growing up.
[13:25]
Mark Maron
Yeah. Yeah.
[13:26]
Bruce Valanch
That was the first of the suburbs.
[13:27]
Mark Maron
Right. That's where my mother came from. So my grandmother would go to Patterson for some specific Jewish something. I don't remember what. But yeah, there was a place maybe Fish.
[13:36]
Bruce Valanch
I don't know my bar mitzvah, maybe. It could have been Temple Emanuel.
[13:42]
Mark Maron
Patterson's got good history. William Carlos Williams, couple boxers.
[13:45]
Bruce Valanch
Right. You know, even then, I mean, we kept saying to ourselves, it's dying on the vine.
[13:51]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[13:52]
Bruce Valanch
It was called the Silk City. It was a textile center. And it got much cheaper in the south to make silk, so. Yeah, but I remember growing up that there were still some textile factories and they would dump dye right into the water. The Mosaic River. Yeah. And we used to say, anything you catch there is a rainbow trout, everything.
[14:11]
Mark Maron
That was the first comedy.
[14:12]
Bruce Valanch
They looked like pride. Pride. Fish. They looked like.
[14:15]
Mark Maron
Whose joke was that? Your dad's, Your mom?
[14:17]
Bruce Valanch
That was my very own. Really? Yeah.
[14:19]
Mark Maron
That was the first joke.
[14:20]
Bruce Valanch
They didn't joke about such things. No, no. But they did have a great set. My mother was a showgirl. Monke. She really wanted to be a performer. We.
[14:29]
Mark Maron
Like a Rockette.
[14:30]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. No, she didn't have the legs for that. She was a little too short, but she wanted to. She just loved to perform and she married a doctor instead. And my father was what kind of a doc? Optometrist.
[14:43]
Mark Maron
Oh, that's one of the easier ones.
[14:45]
Bruce Valanch
Well, because he would have been an ophthalmologist, but he couldn't afford medical school. But his parents were optometrists, which is bizarre. His mother was the only female optometrist or the first impatient optometrist in New Jersey. In New Jersey, yes. The Optometric association gave her a ribbon or something way back.
[15:01]
Mark Maron
It seems like a very practical level of doctoring.
[15:06]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. And I worked in his office, and that's where I got my affinity for glasses, which. Cause I'm wearing red glasses now, but they have no prescription in them.
[15:14]
Mark Maron
Because you don't even need glasses.
[15:16]
Bruce Valanch
I had cataract surgery. So when you get. They get cataract surgery, they do the lasers. They put lenses in. No, with lenses. And they say, which eye would you like for distance and which for close up? And I said, just give me the distance because I wear glasses anyway. I'll get reading glasses.
[15:33]
Mark Maron
And it worked out.
[15:34]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, it's worked out great. But I started my love of all that at my father's office. When the crazy frames would come in. We called them the fat lady frames. They're kind of like Dame Edna.
[15:45]
Mark Maron
Elaborate.
[15:47]
Bruce Valanch
I love those. And I would take them home and he would say, which patient took. Why are these missing? I don't know. I think it was Mrs. Shapiro. I think that she decided she needed sunglasses for the shore.
[15:58]
Mark Maron
Have you noticed that the aging Jewish men, the. As they age, their glasses get bigger?
[16:03]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, it's very weird. Easier to find. This is my theory. You know, as they're grappling around the nightstand, big hunker. Aristotle Onassis glasses.
[16:16]
Mark Maron
Yeah. It's gotta be the size of an anchor.
[16:18]
Bruce Valanch
I know, Exactly. And when I first came out, Irving Lazar, who was a big agent, I remember him.
[16:23]
Mark Maron
Swifty.
[16:23]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. Swifty was known for these gigantic glasses.
[16:26]
Mark Maron
Yeah. And now everyone like I.
[16:28]
Bruce Valanch
Now they're. Yeah.
[16:28]
Mark Maron
I found myself buying a pair. I'm like, am I at that age now? Is this the turn that you take? These aren't them.
[16:33]
Bruce Valanch
No, no.
[16:34]
Mark Maron
You're like.
[16:35]
Bruce Valanch
You're Tom Cruise aviators.
[16:36]
Mark Maron
Yeah, these are aviators. But the other ones I got are just bulky horn rims and it's not quite right yet. I gotta wait a couple years, I think. I think so.
[16:43]
Bruce Valanch
But you know, when you're white and pastry faced, red glasses really make your face look. I like it.
[16:47]
Mark Maron
They work for you. So your mom wants to. Is she performing? Do you go to the city? Do you see Broadway shows?
[16:52]
Bruce Valanch
A lot of benefits. Yes, we would see every Broadway show. My father put money in music. He loved musicals.
[16:57]
Mark Maron
Into Broadway musicals. As an investment, he.
[16:59]
Bruce Valanch
As an investment. He was the tired businessman who loved to go and watch the clowns. Euro Mostel and Phil Silvers and Bert Lahr and people like that. And of course, that's where I got it. I mean, looking at all of them.
[17:11]
Mark Maron
You got to see all those guys.
[17:13]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, I got to see them all live on Broadway. And I thought, gee, this is what I want to do.
[17:17]
Mark Maron
Where does Groucho factor in? Anywhere?
[17:20]
Bruce Valanch
Well, Groucho was on television, so he was.
[17:22]
Mark Maron
He seemed like.
[17:23]
Bruce Valanch
Because we were the Marx Brothers movies. That was earlier.
[17:26]
Mark Maron
But when you bet your life. Right.
[17:28]
Bruce Valanch
He was on you Bet yout Life.
[17:29]
Mark Maron
He was so quick.
[17:30]
Bruce Valanch
So quick. I mean, hysterical.
[17:31]
Mark Maron
Did you ever meet that guy?
[17:33]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, I met him later in life.
[17:35]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[17:35]
Bruce Valanch
When he was slower, but. And he was with Aaron Fleming, who earned every dime. The woman who wound up with. Who sued the estate. Whatever. But he was. He had a. He had. He was sour. By the time I met him. He was. You know, he wasn't the kind of. The Groucho, the flicking cigar and.
[17:55]
Mark Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[17:56]
Bruce Valanch
Dancing around. So sour because of age, I think. So age and whatever else.
[18:02]
Mark Maron
Diminishing relevance.
[18:03]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. And whatever hadn't happened that he wanted to have happened. I don't know exactly what that was.
[18:08]
Mark Maron
But I don't know if for some people that it's ever going to happen, even when they have everything.
[18:12]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah.
[18:13]
Mark Maron
It's crazy, right? It's a mindset. What else could he want? What, fucking Groucho Marx?
[18:18]
Bruce Valanch
Exactly. And you had Dick Cavett, like, at his feet.
[18:21]
Mark Maron
Yeah, he could do Dick Cavett all the time. Yeah, yeah.
[18:24]
Bruce Valanch
And they. But I guess, you know, when. You know, when they ran the carnival, they don't want to be suddenly relegated to the sideshow. Sure.
[18:33]
Mark Maron
Right. So when do you start working, as in show business?
[18:39]
Bruce Valanch
I was a child actor. I was never a child star or we'd be having this conversation in rehab.
[18:44]
Mark Maron
Yeah, right.
[18:45]
Bruce Valanch
I did summer stock. A lot of summer stock. I went to a camp that was run by Ted Mack, who was the Simon Cowell of his day. It was Ted Mack's original amateur hour, which he was that in Jersey. It was New York. He had inherited it from a guy named Major Bowes who did a radio show.
[19:02]
Mark Maron
Okay.
[19:02]
Bruce Valanch
And he brought amateurs on. He's famous for rejecting Elvis because Elvis was too dirty. And Ann Margret, who I worked with for years as a friend, was on the show. And she lost to a woman who played lady of Spain on a leaf.
[19:19]
Mark Maron
Well, there you go, the crowd. That used to be a thing.
[19:26]
Bruce Valanch
But he was a big deal, Ted Mack. It was a big television show. And he ran this camp. Cause he couldn't have kids. And he wanted to be surrounded by children. And it was like Fame in the Berkshires. And so I was a child actor, and he farmed us out. We did commercials, we did summer stock. Different places.
[19:42]
Mark Maron
So he was the manager as well.
[19:44]
Bruce Valanch
Basically mentor.
[19:45]
Mark Maron
Okay, so you had another agent.
[19:48]
Bruce Valanch
Right, Exactly. Another agent. But, you know, I never really made a living at it, but my parents enabled it because they saw I was happy when I was doing it, so they said, let them go perform. Their only concern was that I couldn't make a living. They kept saying, you need something to fall back on. And they said, why don't you be. And I started writing for the high school newspaper.
[20:06]
Mark Maron
Okay.
[20:06]
Bruce Valanch
And that was working out well. And they said, oh, that's great. You could work for a newspaper because newspapers will never die. Yeah.
[20:13]
Mark Maron
Ever?
[20:13]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, no. You know, they just. Kreskin is gone and so are newspapers.
[20:19]
Mark Maron
It took a while.
[20:20]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, it took a while, but.
[20:22]
Mark Maron
So you studied journalism?
[20:24]
Bruce Valanch
So I studied journalism and theater at the Ohio State University.
[20:27]
Mark Maron
Ohio State, Yes.
[20:29]
Bruce Valanch
Okay.
[20:30]
Mark Maron
Yeah. How was that for you?
[20:32]
Bruce Valanch
I loved it. It was great. It was a five year. You know, everybody was in a Stay out of Vietnam program. You know, it was not to take the extra. I'm 77 years old and I'm here to tell you that, you know, Bill Clinton got away. They all found a way. Dan Quayle found a way. George Bush found a way. Nobody.
[20:50]
Mark Maron
Trump found a way.
[20:51]
Bruce Valanch
Nobody wanted. Yeah. Nobody. Yes. Private Heel Spurs. Nobody wanted to go. To go. And that's a whole other show. But. So I was there for five years and got two degrees in the. In theater and journalism.
[21:03]
Mark Maron
What was that like, what, 68 through 70 something.
[21:05]
Bruce Valanch
I was there 65 to 70. In fact, my graduation in 70 was canceled because we tried to burn down the ROTC building. Now, I didn't because I was the editor of the school paper, the Lantern. Sure.
[21:19]
Mark Maron
You were there with a pad.
[21:20]
Bruce Valanch
I was there. Exactly right. Being fair and balanced.
[21:24]
Mark Maron
So that's why the graduation was cancelled.
[21:25]
Bruce Valanch
It was canceled. And Walter Cronkite got a kill fee. And when I got to meet him later on in life, I told him. He said, yeah, I was hoping there'd be more riots that spring. I wouldn't have to work.
[21:37]
Mark Maron
But did you feel at that time like, were you involved with comedy in any way? Was there things coming through the campus?
[21:46]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, I was acting there and I was writing a column for the paper before I was the editor that was.
[21:51]
Mark Maron
But was like, Krasner around, doing the Realist and that kind of stuff.
[21:54]
Bruce Valanch
Yes, he was. They were in San Francisco.
[21:57]
Mark Maron
And you were aware of that stuff?
[21:58]
Bruce Valanch
Yes, absolutely.
[22:00]
Mark Maron
Because it seemed like there was a time like, you know, post Lenny Bruce, where comedians, not unlike the rest of the country, were starting to adapt to the new world of free thinking.
[22:10]
Bruce Valanch
That's right.
[22:11]
Mark Maron
When it was really free thinking, we always.
[22:13]
Bruce Valanch
There was a humor magazine called the Sundial.
[22:15]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[22:16]
Bruce Valanch
And I was on the lantern. I couldn't be on the sundial. They were arch enemies. But the sundial was edited by a guy we called Jovial Bob. Jovial Bob stine, who became R.L. stine of Goosebumps. And what was that? Goosebumps is a children's series of books that have become movies.
[22:34]
Mark Maron
Yeah. Okay.
[22:35]
Bruce Valanch
And he's, like, phenomenally rich from this thing.
[22:39]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[22:39]
Bruce Valanch
Obviously, I took the wrong path.
[22:42]
Mark Maron
You seem to do all right.
[22:43]
Bruce Valanch
But he. And he had a girlfriend named Springfield Rifle. Her real name was Phyllis Rifle, of course, but she was Springfield.
[22:50]
Mark Maron
So it was that time.
[22:52]
Bruce Valanch
The tone of the thing.
[22:54]
Mark Maron
So the hippie thing was happening.
[22:56]
Bruce Valanch
The hippie thing was. Yes. We were coming out of beatnik and into hippie.
[23:01]
Mark Maron
Yeah. Yeah. So that was the transition. 65.
[23:03]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. Right at the beginning.
[23:05]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[23:05]
Bruce Valanch
When Dylan went acoustic.
[23:06]
Mark Maron
Sure.
[23:07]
Bruce Valanch
When Dylan went electric. I mean, he was. Yeah.
[23:09]
Mark Maron
By the time you graduate and come back to New York, it's a different city.
[23:12]
Bruce Valanch
It was actually. I went right to Chicago. I got a job on the Chicago Tribune, of all places.
[23:17]
Mark Maron
Okay.
[23:17]
Bruce Valanch
Which was a really conservative newspaper. But they liked my style. They used to say, I would like the first person in the history of the Tribune to ask Yom Kippur off. And they had to look it up. So I felt I had made my mark, but I was there.
[23:33]
Mark Maron
You like Chicago?
[23:34]
Bruce Valanch
I loved it. What about that? I still love it.
[23:36]
Mark Maron
Did you go. Were you out looking at the Second City people or.
[23:39]
Bruce Valanch
No.
[23:39]
Mark Maron
Close or any of that?
[23:40]
Bruce Valanch
I lived next door to Second City in a place called Piper's Alley, which was like a hippie mini mall. And Second City was there. And the Belushi brothers and the Murray Brothers and Dropping Candy.
[23:53]
Mark Maron
They were all kids.
[23:54]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. We were all around the same age.
[23:56]
Mark Maron
Was Del close around?
[23:57]
Bruce Valanch
Del was. Del was directing.
[23:59]
Mark Maron
Yeah. At Second City.
[24:00]
Bruce Valanch
At Second City.
[24:00]
Mark Maron
Before he branched off.
[24:02]
Bruce Valanch
That's right.
[24:03]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[24:03]
Bruce Valanch
He had some. Several side hustles as well.
[24:05]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[24:05]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. And he was like the bridge between Compass Players, which was Nichols and May.
[24:11]
Mark Maron
Shelly Berman.
[24:12]
Bruce Valanch
Shelly Berman and those guys. But they were down in Hyde park, the older generation. We were in the old town.
[24:18]
Mark Maron
Right. So it was a generational difference.
[24:19]
Bruce Valanch
It was. And Del was kind of the bridge because he had come from that and was directing these new kids.
[24:26]
Mark Maron
Did you get involved with it?
[24:28]
Bruce Valanch
I wanted to, but the paper wouldn't let me. They said that you have to choose. And I thought, I'm staying with the paper. I was happy doing what I was doing at the paper.
[24:36]
Mark Maron
But you'd go down there and watch.
[24:37]
Bruce Valanch
I would go Next door all the time to see the thing. I just didn't trust myself, I guess because I had morphed out of child acting because I wasn't childlike. I looked 40 and I. I had a deep voice and I was heavy and I was auditioning opposite people who were authentically those things. I was a kid, so I didn't trust myself as an actor. So I was happy to be on the paper covering and I would do commercials. And I started doing a routine every night at a club called Punchinello's, where I'd go like at 11 o'clock and do the news of the day.
[25:16]
Mark Maron
Oh, okay. So you're.
[25:17]
Bruce Valanch
It was like a piano bar. And people who were in shows in Chicago would hang out there. Stars, I mean, people, road companies. And there were also a lot of people who had come to promote things and I was always interviewing them. That was my gig at the Trib.
[25:32]
Mark Maron
Oh, yeah.
[25:33]
Bruce Valanch
So I got to know a lot of them.
[25:34]
Mark Maron
Were you doing sort of like one liners?
[25:36]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah.
[25:37]
Mark Maron
For the news?
[25:38]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, I was doing one liners for the news, yes. And just generally telling stories.
[25:43]
Mark Maron
And you got good laughs.
[25:44]
Bruce Valanch
I did. Oh, yeah, I had fun. And I played Mr. Kelly's, which was the.
[25:48]
Mark Maron
That's the place I did.
[25:49]
Bruce Valanch
I opened. I opened for lana Cantrell at Mr. Kelly's. And I had a great time. But I also. I didn't think that was exactly what I wanted to do either. And what had happened was I met Bette Midler.
[26:02]
Mark Maron
Okay, well, wait, Mr. Kelly's, though, like, were you frequent as a reporter? Did you have to go watch all those shows? Did you go see, like, Dreesen and those guys?
[26:09]
Bruce Valanch
I did Tom Driesen and Tim Reed. Tim and Tom, Yeah, absolutely.
[26:14]
Mark Maron
And everybody came through there. I just went to. I was in Chicago doing a show last year and there's big exhibit about Mr. Kelly.
[26:21]
Bruce Valanch
Well, the, the. The. One of the. One of the kids of the original owners.
[26:26]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[26:27]
Bruce Valanch
Did a documentary, which I'm in. Oh, that's all about.
[26:30]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[26:30]
Bruce Valanch
Called live at Mr. Kelly's. And so. And he's kind of been promoting the legend, the lore.
[26:35]
Mark Maron
But see, like, to me, Marion Thal.
[26:36]
Bruce Valanch
That'S what their name.
[26:37]
Mark Maron
Okay, but, but like, to me, like, even that, you know, what you come out of. Like, you know, I can't be nostalgic for it because, you know, I didn't live in it.
[26:45]
Bruce Valanch
Right.
[26:46]
Mark Maron
But it just seemed like it was an entirely different vibe and it. Not just generational, but just how there was something special about things I think then.
[26:56]
Bruce Valanch
I agree. I think there was a certain kind of sophistication that Hugh Hefner marketed. Oh, yes, Came out of Chicago. He was a marketer in Chicago. Playboy was a marketing ploy. And there were people who were actually living that life. But of course, everybody then tried to emulate that. But it was a lot smarter when you were actually in the middle of it. But it did come out of all of that. But that whole nightclub scene has gone away.
[27:26]
Mark Maron
Yeah, no, it's all of it. And also there was a time where that kind of like urban intellectual kind of held court, you know, everywhere.
[27:33]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, I know. I mean. Yeah. Where Bob Newhart. Sure.
[27:36]
Mark Maron
Yeah. And just Dick Cavett. There was a time where there was a full range of it just show business was so. It just seemed smaller and more exciting.
[27:47]
Bruce Valanch
It was. It was smaller and more exciting and part. Yeah, I mean, you could go into it clinically. I mean, multinationals came in and bought the big studios and the television networks. But then cable came in and then the Internet came in. Everything spread out and apps and the universe got gigantic, so. And reality television.
[28:09]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[28:09]
Bruce Valanch
And then. But then making stars out of people who were.
[28:12]
Mark Maron
The ability for.
[28:12]
Bruce Valanch
On a date.
[28:13]
Mark Maron
Right. But the ability for, like, I think culturally, you know, whether you liked it or not, you know, you had three options.
[28:20]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah.
[28:20]
Mark Maron
And on tv.
[28:23]
Bruce Valanch
Sure.
[28:23]
Mark Maron
So. So there was an intimacy to that. Like, if you didn't see it, okay, fine. But most people did.
[28:29]
Bruce Valanch
Right.
[28:29]
Mark Maron
You know what I mean? So there was a communal element to it.
[28:32]
Bruce Valanch
Right.
[28:32]
Mark Maron
Now you don't know what the fuck anyone's watching or even how to get.
[28:35]
Bruce Valanch
It on the show. I mean, now that if they draw 3 million people, people to a show, they consider it a hit.
[28:40]
Mark Maron
Yeah. And back back in the day, what was it, like, 25 million?
[28:42]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, I mean, 17 minimum. To stay on the air, you had. You had to get like.
[28:48]
Mark Maron
See, that's a big difference.
[28:49]
Bruce Valanch
At least if you get. If you could get a third 33, then you were like a boffo over 30 was a boffo smash. But in order to stay on, you had to get. I think it was the least. 17. A rating of 17, which is. I don't know how many.
[29:03]
Mark Maron
Everything so far that represents, it's all fragmented now. So when do you. So you moved back. You moved to New York?
[29:09]
Bruce Valanch
No, I went to Chicago from Columbus, Ohio.
[29:12]
Mark Maron
But you met. Where'd you meet Bette?
[29:13]
Bruce Valanch
I met Bette in Chicago. She was doing. She'd been on Broadway doing Fiddler on the Roof, and she would Go down the street to the Improv. And Bud Friedman ran the Improv in New York. In New York on 44th. That's right. And next to Dyke Lumber, which was the sort. No end of inappropriate jokes. Could she bring her Dyke Lumber. I mean, it was that kind of era. So. And she would get up and she was the only singer. She would get up and sing. And occasionally she would say something, but. And he called me and said, I got her a booking at Kelly's.
[29:49]
Mark Maron
Who called you? Bud.
[29:50]
Bruce Valanch
I knew Bud because Bud represented Freddie Prinz.
[29:53]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[29:54]
Bruce Valanch
And I had gotten to know Freddie had come to Chicago to Kelly's, and I had gone to see him. He opened for Jonah Jones, who was jazz musician. And his. That crowd was not interested in Freddie Prinze at all.
[30:07]
Mark Maron
What'd you think of him?
[30:08]
Bruce Valanch
I thought he was wonderful. I'd never seen anything. He was poor. He was a Hungarian. Puerto Rican. He was a Hungarian, Yeah. And I thought his viewpoint was. Was brilliant and fresh and. Yeah, I wrote about him.
[30:19]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[30:19]
Bruce Valanch
And it was like the only good review he got, I think. And. And Bud called me and said, listen, if you like Freddie, you're gonna love this girl.
[30:26]
Mark Maron
And that was before Freddie went to la, probably.
[30:28]
Bruce Valanch
That was before Freddie. Right before he went to la. And I will tell you the story. He bombed at Kelly's and then he went to la and he got Chico and the man almost immediately.
[30:38]
Mark Maron
And then Mitzi took him in and.
[30:39]
Bruce Valanch
A year later, he was a huge star. And he came back to Kelly's as a headliner.
[30:45]
Mark Maron
Yeah, fuck you. And that was the tour.
[30:49]
Bruce Valanch
Did the same exact act, word for word, he had done the year before. And they screamed and cheered.
[30:57]
Mark Maron
Sure.
[30:58]
Bruce Valanch
Because they had come to see the star and the man who he already loved. And he came back and the first thing he said to me when he came off stage was, you're the only one who knows what I did.
[31:11]
Mark Maron
Why not?
[31:12]
Bruce Valanch
And so I loved him from that point. And his death was so tragic. I mean, he was obviously, you know, demons. The demons will get you. Bud asked me to go look at that. And that opened for Jackie Vernon.
[31:27]
Mark Maron
I love Jackie Vernon.
[31:28]
Bruce Valanch
He's wonderful.
[31:29]
Mark Maron
He was one of. The first. One of the first guys I saw as a kid that made me want to do. My parents took me to see Jackie Vernon when I was like 11 in Albuquerque at the Hilton Hotel Lounge. Yes. It changed my life.
[31:42]
Bruce Valanch
Right. True.
[31:42]
Mark Maron
He was so.
[31:43]
Bruce Valanch
He was so deadpanic with the clicker. When I was a kid, I was unwanted. Now I'm wanted in 13 states. I mean, that's good. One thing after another. Yeah. But she was a little too rocky for his crowd. In fact, they built her.
[31:59]
Mark Maron
She's open for him.
[31:59]
Bruce Valanch
Rocky songstress Bette Midler. Yes. That's how she was built.
[32:02]
Mark Maron
What does Rocky mean?
[32:03]
Bruce Valanch
Well, she sang some rock and roll. What I loved about her was that her musical taste ran the whole. The gambit. She sang every period. She sang rock and roll. She sang standards.
[32:16]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[32:17]
Bruce Valanch
And she took stuff that was the throwaway, like do youo Wanna Dance? Which was a little boppy jitterbug.
[32:25]
Mark Maron
Do you do, do, do youo Wanna Dance?
[32:27]
Bruce Valanch
And she turned it into this erotic song of longing. And of course, you know that she wasn't talking about dancing. Sure. When she asked if you. Do you wanna dance, baby? And I thought, this is amazing. Cause she took all of these things. I mean, she was the head of the whole nostalgia thing. That took the Andrew Sisters numbers.
[32:48]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[32:48]
Bruce Valanch
Which were wonderful. But they were considered throwaway music.
[32:51]
Mark Maron
Is that part of the Manhattan Transfer thing, too?
[32:53]
Bruce Valanch
The transfer followed exactly in her wake. In fact, she had a dresser, Fayette Hauser, who was a fabulous woman, who was the only female cockette in San Francisco.
[33:02]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[33:03]
Bruce Valanch
And her brother, Tim Houser started the group. And she kept handling Bette to go see them. And Bette went to see them and loved them. And she got Ahmad Erdogan to come down, who was running Atlantic Records, her label. And then he got them a record deal. And then her manager got Fred Silverman to see them and put them on television.
[33:20]
Mark Maron
And that's how you got to la.
[33:21]
Bruce Valanch
That was how I got to la.
[33:22]
Mark Maron
But with bet, I mean, did you sort of focus, like, what was the relationship?
[33:28]
Bruce Valanch
Well, she said, I wrote a column about her. And she said, that's a very funny column. You're a funny writer. And I said, well, you're very. You should talk more on stage. And she said, you got any lines? And so all the stuff was local jokes, you know, about Mayor Daley and stuff happening in Chicago.
[33:45]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[33:46]
Bruce Valanch
That week. And it became kind of a hallmark. I started writing for her. Whenever she would tour, I would go out with her. I was a television critic at that point, and I would call the other TV critics who I'd met on junkets, and I'd say, what's happening in Cincinnati that we can make fun of? And so she'd come in armed with this local material, and the audience would kind of go, what? What the. How does she know that? You know, because this was not. We were not living in The Internet. Yeah, exactly right.
[34:16]
Mark Maron
You had to get local news guys to tell you what was up.
[34:18]
Bruce Valanch
Exactly right. So that became one of the things that she became famous for. And a lot of people heard and they began calling me and asking me to work for them. So I was writing for a whole bunch of people by the time I came out here for the transfer.
[34:31]
Mark Maron
So you, like. You cut your teeth on doing topical humor for Bette Midler, who, to me, in my mind, because I don't know, the story that you just told me was always just a firecracker of jokes.
[34:41]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, she. Well, yeah, but she. When she first had. She had her hairdresser, Bill Hennessy, who was Mr. Gerard at the Bergdorfs, and he wrote for her. And then I started writing for her, and she said, Bud Friedman said to me one day, he said, you know, when she came in and when she started, you know, she could only. Only her hairdresser was writing for her. And now she's really famous, and everybody who writes for her is basically a hairdresser.
[35:18]
Mark Maron
Yeah. Now, did you. Was that the extent of your relationship with Bud?
[35:25]
Bruce Valanch
No, we were friendly for years. I mean, he moved out here and I opened the place, opened the club, and I would go out there now and again, and we recorded a comedy album called Mud Will Be Flung Tonight that Bette did in the early 80s.
[35:41]
Mark Maron
How'd that do?
[35:42]
Bruce Valanch
It did okay. I mean, it's a funny album. And Marc Shaiman wrote some songs for it with Jerry Blatt, who was another long gone, unfortunately, collaborator. And it did fine. But, you know, this was. It was kind of a bookmark. Her husband. She'd just gotten married. Her husband said, because no movies were happening.
[35:59]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[36:00]
Bruce Valanch
So he said, why don't you do what you do? What's great? Do comedy. So we did the comedy. And. And at that point, the Jews bought Disney. Michael Eisner came in with Jeffrey Katzenberg, and they brought her in and they put a movie together with three people who couldn't get arrested. Richard Dreyfuss, Nick Nolte and Bette. It was down and out in Beverly Hills, and it was a huge hit. And suddenly she was a movie star again.
[36:22]
Mark Maron
Mazursky. Yeah, yeah. Great, Great movie.
[36:26]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, it's Mazursky and Tucker.
[36:28]
Mark Maron
Very funny movie. So, okay, so then you get set up with the Manhattan Transfer.
[36:33]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah.
[36:33]
Mark Maron
And then that becomes. So this is like sort of a heightened. What's the word? That cabaret show. Right.
[36:41]
Bruce Valanch
Isn't that the Transfer?
[36:42]
Mark Maron
Well, wouldn't it be that. Wouldn't that Be the sort of umbrella of what, Bette kind of. Didn't she kind of take Cabaret to a different place?
[36:49]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, I believe she did, yeah.
[36:51]
Mark Maron
And that sort of established that kind of banter of songs and piano and what the men had to do.
[36:58]
Bruce Valanch
The Transfer TV show, ideally. I think what Fred Silverman was thinking was that it would be. They would host and have guests and do sketches and all that kind of stuff. But we had no money. We had no money.
[37:10]
Mark Maron
Were they that kind of talent?
[37:12]
Bruce Valanch
No, they were not. They were not sketch performers. Some of them. I mean, some of them weren't even. They weren't even. They were studio musicians. I mean, they were great, but they weren't great live performers. But they became, in the course of their. You know, they realized that they had to give the audience everything, so. But we didn't have any money. So we would bring on one comic that we could get for cheap.
[37:38]
Mark Maron
Always.
[37:39]
Bruce Valanch
Always. And we only did four episodes of it. It was the comics. David Brenner. Sure. They were all new. Gabe Kaplan.
[37:48]
Mark Maron
Yeah, sure, yeah.
[37:50]
Bruce Valanch
Steve Landisberg.
[37:51]
Mark Maron
Oh, yeah.
[37:52]
Bruce Valanch
And then the fifth one, we said, we have to have somebody whose name is recognizable. So Professor Erwin Corey.
[37:58]
Mark Maron
So all Jews.
[37:59]
Bruce Valanch
All Jews had Carl Ballantyne, but that was an extra special thing to just kind of throw. And they said, how about another music act? And, yeah, we didn't have any money, so we got Bob Marley and the Wailers.
[38:11]
Mark Maron
Wow.
[38:11]
Bruce Valanch
I know. They floated into the studio.
[38:13]
Mark Maron
I bet they did. That must have been, like.
[38:16]
Bruce Valanch
Scared the shit out of a network censor.
[38:17]
Mark Maron
I mean, it must have been amazing, though.
[38:20]
Bruce Valanch
It was because they'd never been on television before, and the rawness of it.
[38:24]
Mark Maron
Must have been just stunning.
[38:25]
Bruce Valanch
It was especially in contrast to the Transfer. But, I mean, it gives you some idea of what they're. They had the same kind of eclecticism that BET has. Yeah, they. They did music. And. In fact, if you look at the Transfer catalog, I defy you to find any group that's done the. The diversity of music that they.
[38:44]
Mark Maron
Well, they had a.
[38:45]
Bruce Valanch
They had a Brazilian album. They had a Vocalise album. They had.
[38:48]
Mark Maron
Well, that was like. It's interpretive. I mean, they had a set way of approaching music, so they could do anything, right.
[38:55]
Bruce Valanch
Well, it was four part harmony, of course, the foundation. But they were unafraid. They had started as a kind of nostalgia act and then they became a jazz act. And then they had a huge hit with a cover of Chanson d'amour, which was a big song in the 50s that made them stars all over the world.
[39:17]
Mark Maron
So when you came out here with them, that began your relationship with the big time show business?
[39:22]
Bruce Valanch
Yes, as it were.
[39:24]
Mark Maron
Because you produced a show?
[39:26]
Bruce Valanch
Well, no, I wrote it.
[39:27]
Mark Maron
You just wrote it?
[39:28]
Bruce Valanch
I just wrote it with a producer. Joel Silver was one of the writers on the show, believe it or not. And then I was out here. You know, I'd always said if I had an agent and a job, I would come out here. And I had both. So I came out and I started writing variety television. It was, of course, the last gasp of variety television because cable came in.
[39:49]
Mark Maron
Is that what did it? Yeah, because like, I think that there's been some weird, nostalgic attempts at variety. And I think it's gonna happen again. I think my friend Nate Bargazzi is doing a Christmas special.
[40:01]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, well, there are the one offs that people can do, but it was.
[40:05]
Mark Maron
Really a set thing. I mean. I mean, Flip Wilson. We used to watch Flip Wilson.
[40:09]
Bruce Valanch
I know, but two things happened. One was that cable came in and you could. If you wanted to see a performer, you could see them 24 7. If you wanted to see Madonna, she was on 24 7. Right. But in addition to that, SNL came on.
[40:26]
Mark Maron
Right.
[40:27]
Bruce Valanch
And what they could get away with on Saturday nights at 11:30, 10:30 Central.
[40:32]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[40:32]
Bruce Valanch
Was so much more than you could do in any between 8 and 11.
[40:36]
Mark Maron
Well, that was almost like he blew up the form.
[40:39]
Bruce Valanch
Exactly.
[40:39]
Mark Maron
Right.
[40:40]
Bruce Valanch
Because everything suddenly seemed square.
[40:42]
Mark Maron
Right.
[40:42]
Bruce Valanch
Because the stuff that was considered hip, I mean, even in the 70s, the Burnett SK. That were the hip ones and all of that stuff. Yeah.
[40:50]
Mark Maron
But there was an. Attempted to see.
[40:52]
Bruce Valanch
That was kind of in the shade, thrown into the shade by that because it was audacious.
[40:56]
Mark Maron
But it was appro. I guess what it was is that whatever happened in the 60s was sort of appropriated by show business by kind of doing their version of it with Sonny and Cher or Tony Orlando or Flip Wilson even. Cause Carol Burnett was kind of old school. So they're still making references like Laugh in you.
[41:14]
Bruce Valanch
Well, the Smothers Brothers were at the top of the.
[41:16]
Mark Maron
That's right. But that's the late 60s.
[41:17]
Bruce Valanch
Right, right, exactly.
[41:18]
Mark Maron
So now we're already like a little further into it and. And even the hip interpretation of what the new what the Kids Want is Dead.
[41:26]
Bruce Valanch
That's right.
[41:27]
Mark Maron
And then Saturday Night Live comes. So what are the. So how. Where do you go from Manhattan? What do you. Well, first gig.
[41:33]
Bruce Valanch
Well, those shows, the. The variety TV series and shows got replaced by award shows.
[41:42]
Mark Maron
Which variety shows did you write for?
[41:44]
Bruce Valanch
Donny and Marie.
[41:45]
Mark Maron
How was that?
[41:46]
Bruce Valanch
I said. I used to say it was like falling into a vat of stewardesses, but we don't use that term anymore. Everybody was just so nice. They were just nice. They were nice. And they were devout Mormons.
[41:59]
Mark Maron
Were they all Mormons? Were they. Were you surrounded by Jews?
[42:01]
Bruce Valanch
No, they were surrounded by Jews. I mean, you know, riot of television was. Was engineered by Jews, and so they had to put up with us, you know, and they.
[42:09]
Mark Maron
I remember them being cute and able to do comedy. No.
[42:12]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. Oh, yeah. They were adorable. The two of them were great. And they had timing and all of that kind of stuff, but, I mean, they were heavily. They were. The parameters were very narrow because they were Mormons and Marie was a kid. She was underage when we started, and so there were things that they just couldn't refer to or say or do. More than any other show.
[42:33]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[42:34]
Bruce Valanch
Cause I also wrote the Brady Bunch Variety Hour.
[42:37]
Mark Maron
That seems wild.
[42:38]
Bruce Valanch
That was incredible. That was.
[42:40]
Mark Maron
As time goes on, it turns out the Brady Bunch was kind of a pretty wild bunch of people.
[42:46]
Bruce Valanch
The onion layers are being peeled back.
[42:48]
Mark Maron
Yeah. Over time.
[42:49]
Bruce Valanch
I mean, when I go on podcasts and they ask me about. They're all on YouTube. The Brady Bunch. Right. And they say, and my other Star wars holiday special. I wrote that. The Paul Lynde Halloween special. And they say, how did these happen?
[43:03]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[43:03]
Bruce Valanch
You know, kids ask me these things, and so I've written a book about how they. I wrote the worst TV shows in history. It's called. It Seemed like a Bad Idea at the time.
[43:12]
Mark Maron
It did.
[43:13]
Bruce Valanch
It's on pre order at Amazon, dropping March 4th.
[43:15]
Mark Maron
There you go.
[43:16]
Bruce Valanch
So I had to plug it in. But the Brady Bunch Variety Hour gets unbelievably discerning dissection in that book.
[43:23]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[43:24]
Bruce Valanch
But they were, I think, were they.
[43:27]
Mark Maron
Considered the worst TV shows ever?
[43:28]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, it's on lists. Oh, yeah. There was somebody listening.
[43:31]
Mark Maron
The Star wars one was.
[43:32]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, yeah, Those are all on everybody's top 10 of the worst. Those three show up.
[43:37]
Mark Maron
But when you go into it, you go in. In earnest, don't you?
[43:40]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, absolutely. Look, you know, we didn't know it was Fred Silverman's idea, and I believe he wanted the Partridge Family, who were on their show, an actual performing family.
[43:51]
Mark Maron
Weren't they about done by then?
[43:53]
Bruce Valanch
They were both kind of done. They shared an hour on Friday Night together. And Shirley Jones didn't want to do a variety series, and David Cassidy, who was the breakout star, didn't want to do one. And so Fred turned to the Brady Bunch because the Brady Kids had an act which they took around to state fairs and things like that.
[44:14]
Mark Maron
Oh, they did.
[44:15]
Bruce Valanch
They did well enough.
[44:17]
Mark Maron
Singing act.
[44:18]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, singing and. Yeah. I mean, they weren't great, but they.
[44:22]
Mark Maron
Were the Brady Bunches.
[44:23]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. But when he got Florence to say yes, Florence Henderson, the mother wanted. Was raising four children, and she wanted to stay at home in la.
[44:33]
Mark Maron
But she was also a known quantity. She was a real talent, a single.
[44:37]
Bruce Valanch
Talent, a Broadway talent and a Vegas star. And she could really sing and dance and do sketches.
[44:43]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[44:44]
Bruce Valanch
Robert Reed, the dad, was a serious actor who had taken, I think, the show because he was not getting the career he wanted.
[44:52]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[44:53]
Bruce Valanch
And this was gonna be a nice payday. Sure. And I don't think any of them thought the show would last as long as it did initially or that it would go on into eternity. And, I mean, it's had, like six or seven different iterations already.
[45:07]
Mark Maron
It's crazy. And then the stage show that happened in Chicago.
[45:11]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, the parody of it. Yeah.
[45:12]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[45:12]
Bruce Valanch
Well, you know, and then the two movies.
[45:14]
Mark Maron
The parody was the straight scripts, though.
[45:16]
Bruce Valanch
I know. Well, just play them. Exactly. The movies were almost like that. They were parody movies, but they were kind of written straight, but. But with a wink.
[45:25]
Mark Maron
What was Alice's Story? She was a pretty good joke teller.
[45:28]
Bruce Valanch
And B. Davis was. She was a sidekick. She had been. Had a show with Robert Cummings, who was a big movie star called Love that Bob. And she played Schultze, his sidekick, who was man hungry and wacky.
[45:41]
Mark Maron
So she had a history.
[45:42]
Bruce Valanch
So she had that. And when Carol Burnett did Once Upon a Mattress on Broadway, when she left, Anne Bee took over.
[45:49]
Mark Maron
Oh, okay, that makes sense.
[45:50]
Bruce Valanch
So she. I mean, she was. She could do it all, and. But then she became Alice the maid who didn't. It was kind of like she wasted her talents. She was in some kind of a harness. She could come and she could do one line and, you know, pop her eyes and go out, but she was. She was great fun.
[46:08]
Mark Maron
But how. What about Paul Lynn?
[46:11]
Bruce Valanch
Paul was.
[46:12]
Mark Maron
Albert Brooks told me a story about Paul Lynn that it was just too funny. It was like his first moment in, you know, in show business. And he was on the set at NBC or CBS probably, and he ran into Paul Lynn. He was a kid. Albert was. And Paul Lynn is like. Don't you just want to, like, lay in bed and eat yourself to death someday? Like, just sort of like this very dark.
[46:33]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, yeah, he was like. He was extremely dark. He was. He was very charming. On one drink yeah. And then on Two drinks, he was the Nazi high command.
[46:43]
Mark Maron
Oh, yeah.
[46:44]
Bruce Valanch
You mucky lowlife. You know, and, you know. And of course, I was gay, and so he was. So we bonded over that I was the gay one. He could come to with things like when Kiss was on the holiday, the Halloween special, and he came to the rehearsal and Gene Simmons was, you know, in makeup and came over and went up to him and sucked his tongue out. And Paul Tripper was at the. I want to meet him. So I said to Gene, paul would like to meet you in his dressing room. And Gene said, it was the tongue, wasn't it? Yeah, he said, yeah, it gets them all the time.
[47:24]
Mark Maron
Yeah. Well, Gene's funny.
[47:26]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, he's great.
[47:26]
Mark Maron
Yeah, he is. So, wait, then you worked with. Who else? Lily Tomlin as well.
[47:31]
Bruce Valanch
I worked with Lily. I worked with Flip, George Carlin.
[47:35]
Mark Maron
When you say that this is not for the Oscars. These are for when they're putting shows together.
[47:39]
Bruce Valanch
They're TV shows and they're live acts.
[47:42]
Mark Maron
So you would get called and say, I need punch up.
[47:44]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, punch up. And some of them would, like, you know, Joan Rivers would say, I need 10 minutes on breast cancer or whatever. She didn't do that. Yeah, but I mean, I need ten minutes on this. And I pay seven bucks a joke. You know, like that. She paid more than that. But I do have a check from her for $7.
[48:00]
Mark Maron
You do?
[48:01]
Bruce Valanch
Yes. I framed it. Framed it, of course, years ago.
[48:04]
Mark Maron
So that was sort of a thing. So, like, you know, just from the experience of putting together these. With these shows with different talents and being a joke writer, you were sort of able to get the voice of people.
[48:17]
Bruce Valanch
Yes. Well, that's what you have to do. It's due diligence. I mean, you really have to. I admire people. I mean, screenwriters who come up with the characters and write in those voices themselves, especially when they do. You know, when they actually find individual voices for characters. That's a great skill. I was handed these people, and I always say that it's kind of like Bob Mackie would not put Cher in the same dress. He would put Lizzo.
[48:45]
Mark Maron
Right.
[48:46]
Bruce Valanch
I mean, these are two different body types.
[48:47]
Mark Maron
Sure.
[48:48]
Bruce Valanch
And although he has a certain style, he's obviously not gonna give them the same kind of thing. So that was what it was with this. I mean, you have to. I used to say, Shakespeare wrote the Comedy Rarers and Titus Andronicus. Sure. But he never, you know, they said, well, you're comparing yourself to Shakespeare. But wait, I Would say he never had to do a two spot for.
[49:07]
Mark Maron
Donny and Marie, as we don't. As far as we know.
[49:11]
Bruce Valanch
As far as we know.
[49:12]
Mark Maron
Yeah. But I mean, but like, when you write for somebody that does long form stuff, like working with Lily Tomlin or something.
[49:18]
Bruce Valanch
Well, with Lily, it was all to character. Okay. There was a guy named Rod Warren, who is no longer with us, who used to write a lot of Lily observational stuff. You know, things like, I went to the store and I bought a wastebasket, and they put it in a paper bag, and I took it home and took the paper bag out and put it in the wastebasket. You know that. Which is a classic. And especially the way Lily delivers it, because you think it's gonna go someplace else.
[49:45]
Mark Maron
So Lily, as Lily at that time, even when she wasn't doing characters, was.
[49:49]
Bruce Valanch
In herself a character that was her stage character. And then she would branch off into the characters. After Rod died, Jane Wagner, her wife, took over that. And also Jane wrote a bunch of the characters. And I didn't create any characters, but I wrote for Ernestine and I wrote for Edith Ann.
[50:07]
Mark Maron
And you just get a call when they're doing a TV show. Could you come in?
[50:10]
Bruce Valanch
And we did a lot of benefits, I have to say. Ernestine was like the queen of benefits. Especially like AIDS benefits, political fundraisers.
[50:18]
Mark Maron
Ernestine was the operator, the telephone operator.
[50:20]
Bruce Valanch
One ringy dingy. And, you know, we laugh about. Does that make any sense anymore? Because she used to dial the actual rotary dial with her finger.
[50:29]
Mark Maron
And it was already a kind of nostalgia character.
[50:33]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, yeah. There was something that's interesting. And of course, the phone company at the time was omnipotent.
[50:38]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[50:39]
Bruce Valanch
And now that they broke them all up and who uses them now? It's.
[50:44]
Mark Maron
I don't even have a landline. I remember it was a big deal not to have a landline even. I just had a landline because it was old guy stuff. You're like, well, you gotta have a landline. What if you need to call the police?
[50:53]
Bruce Valanch
I know, exactly.
[50:54]
Mark Maron
And now it's all.
[50:55]
Bruce Valanch
Well, I kept the landline because in the earthquake, everything. The power went out, everything went, but the landline somehow stayed. So I thought that was. And that was 19, what, 92 with the big one, the Northridge.
[51:07]
Mark Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was in town that night. I was at the Sunset Tower Hotel for some reason when it happened. It's kind of crazy. It was a very funny moment, though, because I was there for a junket for something. Comedy Central, something. So I'M in the hotel. The earthquake happens in the middle of the night. And I'd met some guy. I met the guy earlier that night. A lot of show business was staying there. I met the guy who was one of the co creators of Beavis and Butthead.
[51:28]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, wow.
[51:29]
Mark Maron
And we're all standing outside, you know, the earthquake happened. You're watching power stations blow up in the.
[51:34]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah.
[51:35]
Mark Maron
And we're all standing around a car, a Lexus because we could get the radio on. It was the only way we could get news. And I'm just standing there with this guy John and think his name, who was the creator of Beavis and Buts. Looking out over the, you know, the earthquake damaged horizon, he goes. I can't help but think this is somehow my fault.
[51:54]
Bruce Valanch
For what?
[51:55]
Mark Maron
Unleashing Beavis and Buttheads.
[51:57]
Bruce Valanch
That's right.
[51:59]
Mark Maron
That was my judge who wrote that. But he must have produced it. Yeah. So when you write for like. Well, Billy's gotta be easy, right?
[52:06]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, Billy was. We did all these Oscar shows and.
[52:09]
Mark Maron
That'S when he started. That's how he started the Oscar stuff.
[52:12]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. No, the first Oscar show had no host. It was the Notorious Snow White Rob Lowe show. And that was a guy named Alan Carr producing a very flimsy.
[52:22]
Mark Maron
When was that? What year was that?
[52:23]
Bruce Valanch
That was 89. That was my first one as an actual writer and I was the writer. We brought in Hildy Parks who wrote the Tony shows. But of course it's a huge task for one person. But there was no host. So. Because they had had.
[52:39]
Mark Maron
I don't even remember how that worked. It was just a voice of God thing.
[52:42]
Bruce Valanch
It was.
[52:43]
Mark Maron
Or just stars walking out.
[52:44]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, a bunch of. Well, there was an opening number and. And then. And then Lily came out and took it to commercial, I think. And then Tom Selleck came out and welcomed people and. And introduced the first category.
[52:58]
Mark Maron
But before you do that, like just tell me a little bit about when it says like. So you were a joke writer for hire. Yeah, basically. Right.
[53:06]
Bruce Valanch
Why? Yes.
[53:07]
Mark Maron
And so when somebody like. Cause some of your credits, they say like Roseanne.
[53:12]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah.
[53:13]
Mark Maron
So you would write for Roseanne when she was less crazy.
[53:16]
Bruce Valanch
Right. We did her stand up act and on a couple of special.
[53:20]
Mark Maron
You were there with her from the beginning.
[53:23]
Bruce Valanch
Close to. Her husband was writing for her a lot back then. The first husband.
[53:27]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[53:27]
Bruce Valanch
Who she came up with. And then. And we met early on and I wrote some stuff then and then.
[53:35]
Mark Maron
Because you could understand the delivery system.
[53:37]
Bruce Valanch
Exactly. Right.
[53:37]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[53:38]
Bruce Valanch
And then of course she became a Big star off the TV series.
[53:41]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[53:41]
Bruce Valanch
And other people. There were a lot of people writing the show and they were involved with her. And then that marriage broke up and she married Tom Arnold. And it went on. It went on. It got crazier and crazier. But I would still do. She would do lots again, benefits she loved.
[53:57]
Mark Maron
So there was a list of people, like, I don't know who would be on it, where you might just get a call like, you got anything on this? Can you give me five minutes on this? And.
[54:05]
Bruce Valanch
Right.
[54:05]
Mark Maron
And you were the guy.
[54:07]
Bruce Valanch
I was. I was not the only guy, but I was a guy. Yeah.
[54:10]
Mark Maron
And who were some of the people that leaned on you the most for jokes?
[54:13]
Bruce Valanch
Wow. What a good question. I'm trying to remember, because it hasn't happened in so long. Robin. Robin Williams. We used to sit down in a room and just come up with stuff.
[54:22]
Mark Maron
Just when he was doing comedy shows.
[54:23]
Bruce Valanch
Comedy stuff. Yeah. And Whoopi.
[54:25]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[54:26]
Bruce Valanch
And Billy and Bet. And they were in the movie. That was. Harvey Weinstein made a movie about me 20 years ago. Never laid a hand on me. Hashtag, why not me? But it's called Get Bruce. You can. You can Netflix and chill. And they're the four principles. But Nathan Lane.
[54:42]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[54:42]
Bruce Valanch
Later on, Shirley MacLaine, Paul Reiser a few times.
[54:47]
Mark Maron
And what was Reiser looking for? Because he's kind of long form.
[54:50]
Bruce Valanch
He is just joke. Actually, he hosted the Emmys one year and I came in and did that with him. And I think he may have done the Golden Globes. I can't remember.
[55:01]
Mark Maron
What a treat, man. Because, like, as a standup, I don't like, you know, occasionally people, Friends will give me a tag.
[55:06]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah.
[55:06]
Mark Maron
But you know, the one time that I actually did a show where I had joke writers to deliver jokes, it was kind of. It's kind of encouraging to know, like, well, I can. I know how to deliver a joke. I didn't have to sweat over this one.
[55:20]
Bruce Valanch
Right.
[55:20]
Mark Maron
You just do it.
[55:21]
Bruce Valanch
Sure.
[55:21]
Mark Maron
It must be nice. I think a lot of people have people helping them.
[55:26]
Bruce Valanch
What happens generally is they start out, nobody's interested in them, and they write all their own material.
[55:31]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[55:31]
Bruce Valanch
And then they happen.
[55:33]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[55:33]
Bruce Valanch
And once they happen, they get involved in what Joni Mitchell called the star making machinery.
[55:38]
Mark Maron
And also, it took them a decade to write that material.
[55:41]
Bruce Valanch
Right. And to generate new stuff. They don't have the time or the inclination really to try to. And that's when they bring in collaborators.
[55:49]
Mark Maron
Right.
[55:50]
Bruce Valanch
And, you know, it becomes a thing. It goes on for even Rodney. I wrote for Rodney.
[55:55]
Mark Maron
Everyone wrote for Rodney.
[55:57]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, I know, exactly. That's the thing. That's one reason why he had a comedy club.
[56:00]
Mark Maron
Yeah, yeah. People like. Yeah, there were guys who, like. I remember when I was a doorman at the Comedy Store, Jimmy Walker had a thing on the bulletin board. I'll pay you $50.
[56:09]
Bruce Valanch
Wow.
[56:10]
Mark Maron
Right? Just give them jokes.
[56:12]
Bruce Valanch
Yep.
[56:13]
Mark Maron
I think. Yeah. I mean, there used to be people. They'd solicit for jokes for the Tonight show. Like from. You could send in jokes.
[56:21]
Bruce Valanch
You could send in jokes. Exactly.
[56:22]
Mark Maron
And they just pay it.
[56:24]
Bruce Valanch
That's true. And he used to have. Used to have 18 jokes. He had to have every monologue on his desk for the monologue. He didn't do 18. I don't think the monologue was that long.
[56:34]
Mark Maron
But it was longer than you remember.
[56:36]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, exactly.
[56:37]
Mark Maron
They were all longer than you remember. I watched the sort of DVDs of Dick Cavett shows. I'm like, wow, this is a slog.
[56:43]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah.
[56:44]
Mark Maron
As brilliant as that guy was, you know, he wasn't playing to the audience.
[56:47]
Bruce Valanch
No, not at all.
[56:48]
Mark Maron
A lot of them weren't. They were playing to each other. It was kind of interesting, the amount of dead air on shows that we've, you know, kind of understand as mythic.
[56:58]
Bruce Valanch
Right? Yeah.
[56:59]
Mark Maron
I mean, you watch some Carsons, you're like, oh, my God, when's this going to pick up?
[57:01]
Bruce Valanch
I know, but he always. He had savers.
[57:03]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[57:04]
Bruce Valanch
You know, he always had savers. And he had Ed going. You are correct, sir. And when all else failed, he could do a gay joke about Doc. About whatever Doc was wearing. Doc was late tonight. He was in the rear ender on Selma.
[57:20]
Mark Maron
Did you sit down with Rodney and write.
[57:22]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. What year? It was later. I mean, it was. Oh, what do you got? It was after he was a movie star. I forget. You know, it was. It was in the 80s, before he was on medicine, I think he was always on medicine.
[57:39]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[57:39]
Bruce Valanch
But toward the end, I mean, we did a. I think the last thing I did with him was one of the American Comedy Awards. I wrote all of those with George Slaughter and other guys.
[57:48]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[57:49]
Bruce Valanch
And we. He came in because he was getting an award, and he came in and George wanted to show him the clip he was gonna do and all of that.
[57:57]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[57:59]
Bruce Valanch
So George had an office on Beverly Boulevard and had a parking lot in the back with a gate, and you had to ring the bell with the gate and rang the bell. And George's assistant called, said, I think this is Rodney, because it's in, like, an old Cadillac. And we watched on the video. The video, I mean, the ring phone, you know, the back door. And he pulled up and he parked and he got out of the car, and he was wearing a Beverly Hilton.
[58:25]
Mark Maron
Hotel bathrobe, probably carrying his own drink.
[58:28]
Bruce Valanch
Shower slippers and carrying a drink. And came in and sat with the bathrobe that would, like, fall open at the desk and ride and go. That's a killer. That's a beauty. Yeah, I tell you, I like that one. I like that one. But the thing I loved about Rodney was, my favorite thing about comedians is the biggest laughs for me were not the jokes. It was just the attitude. You know, he would come on and he would say. He said, I'm all right now, but yesterday I was in bad shape. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Right away. Right away. It was like, whatever else.
[59:01]
Mark Maron
Oh, I was in bad shape.
[59:02]
Bruce Valanch
My wife was fat. Oh, she's fat.
[59:04]
Mark Maron
Yeah, yeah.
[59:04]
Bruce Valanch
Okay, what's coming next?
[59:07]
Mark Maron
He was like.
[59:08]
Bruce Valanch
I was already laughing.
[59:09]
Mark Maron
I just think. I mean, everyone knows Rodney, but as a comic, you know, he's just. I don't think he gets put up there as one of the best enough. Cause I really think he was one of the best. He was like the whole package, right? And there was, like. There were moments. Some of the greatest moments watching him on Carson is when he runs out of jokes and you realize he's incapable of talking.
[59:28]
Bruce Valanch
That's right. He's not Rickles.
[59:30]
Mark Maron
No.
[59:30]
Bruce Valanch
You know, he's not gonna, like, you know, once.
[59:32]
Mark Maron
Once he's out, he's like. He's not gonna. He can't talk because he's so fucking depressed.
[59:36]
Bruce Valanch
Right, exactly. You don't wanna know.
[59:38]
Mark Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was unbelievable.
[59:40]
Bruce Valanch
I want to know.
[59:41]
Mark Maron
And. Yeah, well, Rickles on the other side of that. Half the time, Rickles wasn't funny. It was just the momentum.
[59:47]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, right, exactly.
[59:48]
Mark Maron
You get caught up in it. Did you work with Carson at all?
[59:51]
Bruce Valanch
I gave him jokes at the very beginning. I sold him a couple of jokes. And then.
[59:57]
Mark Maron
Well, when he moved out here, you mean?
[59:58]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, when he first moved out here.
[60:01]
Mark Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how does the relationship with the Oscars start?
[60:07]
Bruce Valanch
Alan Carr? Well, I was right. BET had been on as a presenter and other people I worked with, and I'd written some stuff for them under the table. But then Alan asked me to write the show. So I came on in 89, and I wrote that show, which became legendary because of the Rob Lowe Snow White dance number at the time.
[60:25]
Mark Maron
I don't remember it.
[60:26]
Bruce Valanch
What happened well, he opened the show with a 20 minute number set at the Coconut Grove with all old Hollywood stars around. And Snow White was visiting Hollywood. He imported a number from San Francisco from a show called Beach Blanket Babylon.
[60:40]
Mark Maron
Yeah. An ex of mine used to work at Beach Blank with the hats.
[60:44]
Bruce Valanch
The hats. And so it was kind of a disastrous. It seemed like a bad idea at the time, but that didn't stop Alan.
[60:51]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[60:52]
Bruce Valanch
And the rest of the show was kind of interesting, but that. It was in the great pantheon of bad Oscar numbers. You know, it ranked high, but I mean, there were other ridiculous. The year before, Terry Garr was on an airplane wing flying down to Rio. It was really strange.
[61:08]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[61:08]
Bruce Valanch
But what cemented its relation itself, notoriety was two weeks after the show, oh, Disney sued for the use of Snow White, which was, of course, they had no leg to stand up at the Academy, caved and said, okay, we'll cut it out of the archive. So that was to make one guy at Disney happy.
[61:28]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[61:30]
Bruce Valanch
But two weeks after that, the Rob Lowe's sex tape surfaced.
[61:33]
Mark Maron
Oh, right.
[61:34]
Bruce Valanch
Where he and a friend were at a convention. The convention. The Dukakis convention. Right. And the video. And of course, you have to remember that this was back in the day when there were, you know, vhs.
[61:46]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[61:46]
Bruce Valanch
And there was no Internet and nobody was sharing anything, so it became a highly prized thing. And people would have parties all over town looking at bootleg things. And he has completely owned it in the time since. He was the. He said I was the poster child for bad behavior.
[62:03]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[62:03]
Bruce Valanch
And he owns it to this day.
[62:05]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[62:06]
Bruce Valanch
But it cemented the show's reputation as being a classic disaster. That and the fact that a lot of the people that Alan couldn't put on the show because the network didn't want them were big stars. And they wrote a letter after Disney sued, they wrote a letter saying, well, this is. We have to have a quality control meeting about this. This can't happen again.
[62:29]
Mark Maron
Really?
[62:29]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. So they brought in Gil Cates to produce it and he wound up producing the next 17 shows, I think.
[62:35]
Mark Maron
And that's when. And you worked for him.
[62:36]
Bruce Valanch
Yes. And he brought in Billy to host it. Billy had hosted four Grammy shows.
[62:40]
Mark Maron
And you had worked with him before. Yeah, yeah. And so, like, in terms of writing it, do you put a staff together?
[62:47]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. Well, what happened? The producer puts a staff together, but when there's a host, there are kind of two staffs. There is. The host generally has people who work with them. If they are doing a daily talk show, as many of them Are they bring their entire talk show staff over. And of course, that puts a big dent in the budget. So they can't hire too many other people to write the rest of the show.
[63:11]
Mark Maron
Because I've known guys who, you know, my peers, who, like, you know, get pulled in to write for the week or two before.
[63:17]
Bruce Valanch
That's because people get dissatisfied with what the writers for the rest of the hostess has written.
[63:23]
Mark Maron
So they bring in comics, and they bring in.
[63:24]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, they. So they bring in people. Yes. I brought in. My last official Oscar show was 10 years ago, but I'm.
[63:32]
Mark Maron
Who was the host?
[63:32]
Bruce Valanch
Get involved. The legendary Anne Hathaway James Franco show.
[63:37]
Mark Maron
That was. That turned out to be a disaster.
[63:40]
Bruce Valanch
A bigger disaster. But I didn't write about it in this book because maybe the next book.
[63:44]
Mark Maron
Why?
[63:45]
Bruce Valanch
Because nobody asked me about it. It hasn't shown up on YouTube and had the kind of life.
[63:50]
Mark Maron
Well, I mean, it seemed like, you know, I felt bad for. Cause I love her.
[63:53]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, she's wonderful.
[63:54]
Mark Maron
And it just seemed like he wasn't willing. He wasn't game.
[63:59]
Bruce Valanch
She's a precision instrument, and he wasn't playing along with her. And he's apologized to me a million times since. He said he went. He was nominated that year for the movie where he gnaws his arm off, and he knew he was gonna lose to Colin Firth for playing the stuttering King George. And he said, I decided, do I wanna sit in the audience and wait to lose, or do I want to do something else? And when they came and they said, you want to co host it? I said, yes, I'll do it. And he said it was a mistake.
[64:28]
Mark Maron
Because he didn't really know how to do that.
[64:30]
Bruce Valanch
He didn't. It was not in his comfort zone. And he brought in some writers who had no idea what to do with it. And they were young people who worked for Judd Apatow. But it was a bad idea from the beginning. I mean, there was no chemistry between those two. I mean, it was a blatant attempt to youth the show up.
[64:51]
Mark Maron
Well, it's like. Because she's so amazing. Like, it could have. You know, if you would have gotten somebody that had chops, it would have been great.
[64:57]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. Yeah. But it's. The number of people who are offered the show and turn it down is legion.
[65:04]
Mark Maron
If you're to host it.
[65:05]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah. If you're famous enough and rich enough, you don't need to host that show. You only can get in your own way. If you do well, they'll go, nice job. If you Mess up. The stink will sit on you forever.
[65:18]
Mark Maron
That's interesting, isn't it?
[65:19]
Bruce Valanch
So you have to be built of really like Letterman built of really strong stuff.
[65:24]
Mark Maron
Yeah. I mean, I just like, I grew to appreciate the fact that, you know, if we're gonna honor show business, then get the guys that love it.
[65:31]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah.
[65:31]
Mark Maron
You know, for what it's like. I mean, that's why Billy was good.
[65:34]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, exactly. I think you're absolutely right. Even Steve Martin, who is an oddball, is a movie star. But he loves what he does. He loves the community and he can comment on it. He's not a mean spirited comic coming on and making jokes.
[65:51]
Mark Maron
Yeah. And also like the. Again, you know, as time went on and you know, some of the older generation aged out, the sense of kind of community dissipated with the Oscars. You know, like there was a time where, you know, when you still had like, you know, Nicholson sitting there or even older guys, you know, with John, Jimmy Stewart or whoever were around, you kind of felt there was a history to the thing and that there was a community to the thing. And now like, I don't even know who the fuck is there. But I.
[66:20]
Bruce Valanch
Maybe it started happening years ago when the, when the independence began taking over and the movies that were nominated were not necessarily popular movies, but they were movies that people who make movies like.
[66:34]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[66:34]
Bruce Valanch
And that still holds true. But now since the Academy has widened the voting pool and has included lots of diverse people who were never involved before and lots of like not Hollywood centric people. Yeah, you get, I mean you would never have gotten movies like Parasite and everything. Everywhere, all over your face. 12 Years a Slave and Moonlight. You would never have gotten those movies nominated, much less win because the Academy voting body was not interested in that kind of picture.
[67:05]
Mark Maron
Well, I guess that, well that's, I guess that's a double edged sword in that. That kind evolution is necessary and inclusiveness is necessary and those movies are great movies. But I guess it speaks more to the diminishing weight of the Hollywood community.
[67:21]
Bruce Valanch
Exactly.
[67:22]
Mark Maron
And what are you gonna do?
[67:24]
Bruce Valanch
They don't all know each other and sometimes, I mean, sometimes they vote. I don't know the lady who won for playing the grandmother in Minari. Yeah, I don't think she, she's not, she's not seen around town with Joan Collins.
[67:43]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[67:43]
Bruce Valanch
You know, she's not part of.
[67:44]
Mark Maron
That's all.
[67:44]
Bruce Valanch
Any old Hollywood set.
[67:45]
Mark Maron
Well, that's over. I guess it's not bad that it's over, but I guess because I'm of an age where I, there's some part of me that misses that, but I'm also, I am impressed when they award, you know, off to the side movies that are truly amazing.
[67:59]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah.
[67:59]
Mark Maron
And I think the, the death of the Hollywood picture is not horrible necessarily. Right.
[68:06]
Bruce Valanch
Well, but it's alive and well. I mean, last year, Barbenheimer.
[68:10]
Mark Maron
Yes.
[68:10]
Bruce Valanch
You know, Gigantic. And this year they're gonna have Wicked and Gladiator and. Yeah. I don't know what else, you know. Sure. And then people, popular movies that also the movie makers are appreciating and would make themselves. They, they, they do come along.
[68:28]
Mark Maron
But it also speaks to the community of voters. Thank God they expanded it because it was like a bunch of old Jews and a lot of out of work people.
[68:35]
Bruce Valanch
Yes, that's true.
[68:36]
Mark Maron
And they would just vote on familiarity. Like, oh, I know that person. You know, I didn't see the thing. But I like her. I like her. Yeah, that's it. Right. So when did, like in looking back at the Oscars, who was your favorite host when you were working there?
[68:50]
Bruce Valanch
Well, it's very impolitic to say. I mean, I've. I got the biggest take out of Steve because Steve Martin, because he's so strange. I mean, I did four shows with Whoopi, who's the greatest, and we had fun. I did eight shows with Billy, who's phenomenal. I love them all. So it's hard to pick out a few.
[69:08]
Mark Maron
Sure. Did you work on Comic Relief with them?
[69:10]
Bruce Valanch
Yes, I did 15 of them.
[69:12]
Mark Maron
Yeah. And Robin was, he was something.
[69:15]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, Robin was spectacular.
[69:17]
Mark Maron
You know, I, you know, oddly, I feel like Kimmel did an okay job.
[69:20]
Bruce Valanch
I thought he did grab me. I thought he grew into it. I mean, he was at ease after the first one. And he's not mean spirited. No, I mean, I just think he.
[69:30]
Mark Maron
Takes it to the edge, but he's not mean.
[69:31]
Bruce Valanch
He takes it to the edge, but that's his shtick and they know it. And no one feels attacked. Part of the reason is because they've all been on his show.
[69:38]
Mark Maron
Sure. That's great. Yeah. But also it's very funny that, you know, you gotta know. It's good to know the people.
[69:44]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah, exactly.
[69:45]
Mark Maron
When did you become active in terms of gay activism?
[69:52]
Bruce Valanch
When it.
[69:53]
Mark Maron
Because it seems like you were never, you know, not out.
[69:55]
Bruce Valanch
You know, I was, I was, I was not a professional homosexual. I was a homosexual professional.
[70:01]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[70:02]
Bruce Valanch
And. But as things AIDS probably was what did it. I was always interested. I was always kind of involved. But, you know, it's a movement that used to eat its young. You know, I mean, they would out anybody because they were. How dare you not be out.
[70:20]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[70:21]
Bruce Valanch
And I always thought, who needs some miserable queen, you know, who didn't want to come out? Let them come out when they're ready to come out. But what AIDS did was it was a fight for survival.
[70:35]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[70:35]
Bruce Valanch
And the government wasn't giving any money. And in show business, you can raise money by doing a show. So we did shows. And as I say, it's how I became familiar with all the major diseases. Because if you do my benefit, I will do your benefit. So I knew all about them, but that was the beginning of that. And, you know, when the community got galvanized to save its life, that brought a renewed interest in becoming first class citizens. Because AIDS showed how much we weren't. And of course that led to marriage equality because the only way we could really. That's something that, I mean, it's kind of basic. And once the Supreme Court said Yes, 10 years ago, we were in the mainstream fabric. And I helped that happen. And I'm concerned that it doesn't get dismantled like Roe v. Wade. It's important that we are vigilant and stay on the case.
[71:37]
Mark Maron
Well, yeah. And. Well, it seems that at least culturally, there's a fight for life again.
[71:42]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah.
[71:42]
Mark Maron
As a community.
[71:43]
Bruce Valanch
As a community. Yeah. But I'm being optimistic. I don't see somebody saying to Pete Buttigieg that his marriage doesn't exist anymore. I mean, when you're in high levels of office already, I mean, even though he will not be at this January, but it seems to me that more people know gay couples who are married than ever did before.
[72:07]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[72:07]
Bruce Valanch
And when you look at polls, they don't disapprove of it. So it is strictly a fundamentalist, right wing, dark side, quasi religious fanaticism that is fueling that.
[72:20]
Mark Maron
Yeah. And they have traction now.
[72:23]
Bruce Valanch
They have traction.
[72:24]
Mark Maron
Yeah. So you wrote the book that's coming out and then you're doing a podcast. You're gonna be among the yammerers.
[72:33]
Bruce Valanch
And if you are heard in the uk. I wrote a musical with Dolly Parton.
[72:37]
Mark Maron
Was that platinum?
[72:38]
Bruce Valanch
It's called Here youe Come Again. No, it's now. It's on in London right now at the Riverside Studios.
[72:44]
Mark Maron
Okay.
[72:44]
Bruce Valanch
It's about a. It happened during COVID Yeah, it's about a 40 year old gay comic who's never happened, working as a waiter at Caroline's in New York. Covid happens, the club closes and he has to quarantine in the Attic of his parents home in Longview, Texas.
[72:59]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[73:00]
Bruce Valanch
Where he has an intimate relationship with his imaginary friend, Dolly Parton.
[73:05]
Mark Maron
Okay.
[73:05]
Bruce Valanch
She steps out of a poster. An actress named Tricia Pai Luccio, who's brilliant, plays Dolly. And in the course of one night, she sets him straight. So it's called Here youe Come Again How Dolly Saved my life in 12 easy songs.
[73:20]
Mark Maron
Oh.
[73:20]
Bruce Valanch
And we did five regional productions here and then we toured the UK for six months and now we're in London.
[73:26]
Mark Maron
It's a hit.
[73:27]
Bruce Valanch
It's a hit. Yeah. We paid off. The UK actually recouped, which is, you know, quite something.
[73:33]
Mark Maron
And you wrote all the songs.
[73:34]
Bruce Valanch
Dolly wrote all the songs. It's all her catalog. And I co wrote it with our director, Gabriel Barry and our star, Tricia Paoluccio, because she's.
[73:43]
Mark Maron
That seems to be a pretty good model. If someone's got a big catalog and you can wrap a show around it, that's great.
[73:51]
Bruce Valanch
I mean, she's actually has been inspired not by us, but by all the other musical star shows. She's working on her own catalog show, which is who Dolly Dolly is, which will be about a year from now.
[74:03]
Mark Maron
She can deliver a joke.
[74:04]
Bruce Valanch
It was called hello, I'm Dolly, but now it's called Dolly. An original musical. But she's looking for a Dolly. I mean, I think she wants to like create a star.
[74:13]
Mark Maron
She's funny.
[74:14]
Bruce Valanch
Oh, Dolly's very funny. Exactly right. Oh, she's a star. She's not gonna be in it. I mean, have you worked with her? Oh, yeah, I worked with her years ago. And then I worked on a legendary flop TV show called Dolly. Big ABC Sunday night variety show, which I did not include in the book for obvious reasons.
[74:33]
Mark Maron
It sounds like you got another book.
[74:35]
Bruce Valanch
Could be.
[74:36]
Mark Maron
Let's see, what are the musicals you've been involved with? You love it.
[74:39]
Bruce Valanch
I had a musical called Platinum, which is in the book, along with Ice Pirates, which I made, which is another thing that kids ask me about constantly. Can't Stop the Music, the Village People.
[74:51]
Mark Maron
Why do they ask you about it? Cause they think it's terrible.
[74:54]
Bruce Valanch
No, actually they love it. It's become a cult movie. But it's because it's kind of like it was like before Spaceballs, but it was like a kind of action movie parody. It's an uncomfortable parody of things. Cause it's also asking you to. But the whole thing is very tongue in cheek. And it was one of the reasons that it gets seen a lot was it was Angelica Huston's Second movie, and she won an Oscar for her third. And so they began showing all of her catalog, which amounted to three movies. Yeah. And Ted Turner loved the Ice Pirates. So cable was beginning, and he put it on all of his cable stations constantly. And to this day, Angelica says, what do I do to get. I can't get rid of it. Somebody will come in there, 20 years old. The first thing they'll say to me is, what was it like being an Amazon in the ice box? She said, I've had a career. What are they carrying on?
[75:49]
Mark Maron
That's what makes the impact. That's what makes the impression. And the podcast is called what the Oscars?
[75:55]
Bruce Valanch
What were they thinking? And I did it with an academician named Adam Davis, who's not academician, makes him sound boring. He's very funny. And we pick a year, and we go through the year and explain why things won. His basic premise is, nobody remembers how Green Was My Valley, but it beat Citizen Kane. And that's what we talk about. How did that kind of stuff happen? Movies that have no legs walked away with trophies, and movies that are iconic and will live through the centuries are overlooked.
[76:32]
Mark Maron
Well, what's the general. What's the consensus? How did that happen? You know?
[76:37]
Bruce Valanch
Well, because of Hearst. Because Hearst didn't allow Citizen Kane to get the. The press.
[76:43]
Mark Maron
Well, that was that one case. But generally speaking, why do these.
[76:46]
Bruce Valanch
Well, there's. There's a different situation. Oh, yeah, Yeah. I mean, generally speaking doesn't really apply. That's, I guess, what the show is about.
[76:54]
Mark Maron
Yeah.
[76:54]
Bruce Valanch
Is that every case is. Is kind of different.
[76:56]
Mark Maron
Well, that sounds interesting. So it's a series. It's not an ongoing thing.
[76:59]
Bruce Valanch
It's. We've. I think we've recorded three of them, and we're gonna do a bunch more. And we've chosen random years, you know, summer years where not even I was alive. We go. We go through.
[77:08]
Mark Maron
Oh, great.
[77:09]
Bruce Valanch
Yeah.
[77:09]
Mark Maron
Well, it was great talking to you, Bruce.
[77:11]
Bruce Valanch
What a treat. Thank you.
[77:12]
Mark Maron
Thank you.
[77:12]
Bruce Valanch
I am a fan.
[77:18]
Mark Maron
There you go. That was great. Bette Midler, huh? How often do we get to talk about Bette Midler? So Bruce's new podcast is called Oscars. What were they thinking? Thinking. It's everywhere you can get podcasts. Hang out for a minute, folks. Okay, guys, it's a busy social season. You've got holiday parties, family gatherings, New Year's Eve. It's time to get yourself looking sharp. But if you're experiencing hair loss, you might not feel so confident when you're heading out. Now's the time to get that confidence back and restore your hair. With Hims, they can regrow your hair in as little as three to six months. The process is simple and 100% online. Just answer a few questions and a medical provider will determine if treatment is right for you. And then if you get a prescription, HIM sends it right to your door. You'll join hundreds of thousands of HIM subscribers who were able to get their confidence back with visibly thicker and fuller hair. Start your free online Visit today@hisss.com WTF that's H I M S.com WTF for your personalized hair loss treatment options. Grow it hims.com WTF results vary based on studies of topical and oral minoxidil and finasteride. Prescription products require an online consultation with a healthcare provider who will determine if a prescription is appropriate. Restrictions apply. See website for full details and important safety information. People this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Shifting a little money here, a little there, and hoping it all works out well? With the name your price tool from Progressive, you can be a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill too. You tell Progressive what you want to pay for car insurance and they'll help find you options within your budget. Try it today@progressive.com and now some legal info. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Hey, if you want some holiday themed WTF material, you can listen to episode 875, the shows of Christmas Past. That's a compilation episode of some holiday moments from the early years of the show. Thanks for coming. This is the. This is going to be the Christmas show, so let's pretend like it's Christmas, shall we? Let's take a minute. Hmm. Let's talk to the people that are listening to this. This show is going to go up on the 24th, so it's a day before Christmas. So let's assume there are people maybe traveling home, all right? They're on the plane by themselves freaking out because they have fucking family to deal with. They're going back to a home that's uncomfortable, filled with abuse and pain. So let's just talk to them, all right? Keep it together, all right? Don't let them in, keep them out. Remember, they're the ones that wired you. They can get into the box. Keep them out of the box. I don't usually tell people to lie, but this is a good time to start lying. Pretend that everything is okay, sure, your mom will see through it, but fuck her. Just ride it out, all right? Tell them you have things going on that you don't. Don't let them see the insecurity, and don't let your father hit you. All right? Just. Just hold on. Keep hold of the ship. Stay steady and good luck. And Merry Christmas again. That's episode 875, the shows of Christmas past. To subscribe to WTF, so you can get every episode of WTF ad free, go to the link in the episode description and go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. This guitar piece took me a long time, oddly, to put together. And I don't love the sound. I'm insisting on going straight in, but it doesn't give me this. The sustain I want. I don't know why I don't just surrender to the pedals. Surrender the pedals. But I do understand more. More why Jimmy Page sounds like. He sounds like if you go straight into a Fender Champ, it's going to be clunky. I didn't do that. It's not into a Champ. This was into. Well, this is into a Deluxe. Doesn't matter. Look, I'm just talking the minor guitar nerd that I know from my experience. Here, let me just play this. Boomer lives Monkey and La Fonda Cat angels everywhere.