Brendan (32:53)
Probably, yeah, probably five years. He had a job until 2013 and he was secretly working as, you know, my partner on WTF and editing everything. He was doing the same job. He just couldn't tell anybody about it. It Always bummed me out because I always wanted to bring him up in interviews, and I couldn't because he had a no compete clause at his other job. So it was on the down low. And then in 2013, he said, Look, I'm going to go full time with wtf. And I said, hey, man, you don't have to do that. Don't. Don't take any chances. I was freaked out. I'm like, you got a family, man. Look, I could, you know, I could lose everything. I don't care, but don't do it, man. But he was like, don't worry about me. I did the research. I'm not. I know what I'm doing. And I'm like, all right. And that instilled a certain amount of confidence in me as well, because I don't pay attention to numbers, really. So I don't know what the fuck is going on. But that was the point. One episode that has always stood out to me was Cheech and Chong. Do you have any fond memories of that interview? I loved every second of that interview. That interview was amazing because I grew up with Cheech and Chong, listening to their records, and I couldn't believe I was going to get to interview them both together. And when I had the headphones on and they were just sitting there talking, they sounded exactly like Cheech and Chong. It was fucking hilarious. What a great day that was. I've been listening to WTF since almost the beginning, but I'm still confused by some of the standup lingo. What is a bringer show? What is the difference between a feature spot and a headliner? What is a middle? When you say closer, does that only refer to jokes or are headliners also called closers? Okay, well, let's go down the list. A bringer show is basically a show where. Where in order to get on stage, you have to bring people. Usually there's a number of people, friends, family, whatever. But that is what gets you. Your spot is if you bring audience, paying audience members. What is the difference between a feature spot and a headliner? The feature spot is either the middle spot, which is the one between the opener and the headliner, or the first act on a two person show, say at a theater, someone's featuring for you. That's usually how it's used. Like the opener is usually in a club, the person who does like five, 10 minutes up front brings and hosts the show generally, and then the feature is the next act or the middle. The middle act is essentially the act between the opener and the headliner closer. A closer is somebody who closes the show. Now, obviously, if you're at a club, the closer would be the headliner or on a long show or like, maybe there's five acts on who's closing. So, yeah, it's the same as the headliner, but not always, because it could be just on a show where everybody's doing the same amount of time and somebody's got to close. So, like, when am I going on? You're closing, right? So. And yes, a closing bit is a closing bit. What's your closer? Closing bit. Can you expand about why the night of the Chevy Chase roast was such a bad night for you personally? Well, I can. I had accepted to do the roast. I'm not really a roast comic. I don't really know how to do it. I still don't. I didn't really know how to do it then. I not. I'm not very good at insult comedy as a genre. You know, I can be funny in. In an insulting way, but I didn't really know the format made me nervous. I had to write a bunch of jokes. My ex wife Mishnah, wrote a couple jokes. And, you know, it was before the roasts were really a thing. But the bottom line was it was a huge dais. There were just, it seemed like 100 people on it. Many of them had nothing to do with roasting. The audience was huge. It was at the Hilton, I think, in New York City, and they were eating, and it was just a flat night. Chevy didn't really want to engage or be there. Everyone was bombing, and I just had a very hard time bombing that hard in front of that many people and my peers. And it just kind of sent me spiraling into a kind of not a nervous breakdown, but it was embarrassing, and it was hard to bomb that hard look. They made it look good, but it just felt like a very public humiliation. Now, granted, any bomb is that in a way, but you do get used to it. But I just didn't feel. It just felt like a very. Almost dismissive room. Chevy wasn't fun. There was nothing fun about it. And once the joke started crapping out, it's just like any other bomb. It was just a big one. And I felt like it made me look bad. I felt like everyone was judging me, even though everyone else was bombing except for maybe a couple of people. And I don't know. It was humiliating, and it made me doubt myself in a very deep way. I have to assume there are some comics you don't enjoy as much as others, without or with naming names. What is it about certain comics that you don't enjoy, perhaps type of material or stage presence or something else? Well, I don't like not being able to see somebody's being, you know, I don't like people that are so distant from their material or from their style that I can't get a sense of who they are. I don't like hackneyed jokes. I don't like comics that don't have very good material in terms of originality or how it's executed. I don't like people that aren't necessarily interesting or innately funny. But I can appreciate a pretty broad spectrum of comedy. But I like to see. I like it to be a fully realized thing, both on behalf of the comic and his or her or their connection to the material. I don't like people that do cheap comedy or just. I can even handle a little bit of hackiness from comics if they at least approach it in a different way. It's really a mixed bag of why I register people as being not funny or I can't watch it. Sometimes I'm embarrassed for them. Sometimes I feel like it's hard for me to watch. There's a few different reasons. To the best of your knowledge, what are the demographics of your audience? Have they shifted at all throughout your career? Do you have thoughts on why your audience is who it is? Well, early on, I didn't have an audience. And after the podcast, I. I had some people who were kind of leftover from my political radio show on Air America, and they were still around. But then a new group of people, podcast fans, came, and they didn't really know me as a standup, and they used to say they would come to support me, which I didn't need. But I've noticed that my fans are either sort of sensitive and intelligent younger people who kind of get where I'm coming from. People my age, couples and men. I used to see a lot of men coming to my shows alone just because, you know, I imagine they. That their friends didn't know who I was. I think those two groups are still with me. But it's usually intelligent people, like minded people, grownups who tip well and behave. It's a real blessing. I'm very grateful for the audience that I've built over the years since I started the podcast. Do you have guitar face, riff, smirk? Do you make funny faces during playing, or are you consciously trying to stay cool? And in your opinion, who has the best, funniest guitar face? Huh. I have seen footage of me playing, and I do do a thing. There is definitely a guitar face there. It's not too dramatic. It's not forced. It does happen naturally. I'm very rarely consciously trying to stay cool. I can't seem to pull that off. But something does happen when you're sort of in it, and it happens to me. It's not particularly funny or over the top, but it's definitely there. I think the coolest guitar player still, for the most part, is probably Keith Richards. Cause he does something with his whole body that's kind of laid back. It's kind of a slow groove thing. And his face is always cool. He kind of leans back or leans into things. And I still think as somebody who becomes an extension of his guitar in a fairly honest way when he's not, you know, really doing a showboat thing. It's gotta be. It's gotta be Keith. The funniest guitar face. Just right off the top of my head, I think that Jimmy Page, as cool as he seems, has a very peculiar and funny guitar face. And also physicality when he's playing guitar. When he swooped over, you know, he's kind of. And his legs are kind of spread. He's cool, but he definitely has a goofy guitar face. But those are just ones that come to mind. I'm sure if you were to run a bunch by me, I. I could make other, you know, other suggestions as to both of those best and funniest guitar face. Would you like to make a movie about your time as a door guy at the Comedy Store and Sam Kennison Days? No, I don't. I don't know where that movie would go. I mean, and it would have to. If we were to really do it right. The scenes of us doing coke at the house at the table, they would have to be like, you know, 18 hours long. I'd actually like to see that, in a way. What the fuck could we have been doing, you know, from 2:30 in the morning till 10 the next morning? What could we have been doing? What could we have been talking about? Has that ever been documented? Like, straight through just a table full of people doing blow for like eight or nine hours? I'd like to do that movie. Be like an Andy Warhol film. It'd be some sort of marathon, just to see what it would look like. I'd like to see a documentary of that. Have you underachieved, overachieved, or achieved exactly what you'd hoped? Huh? That's a good Question. Because I don't know if I see myself as an underachiever in terms of what I've actually accomplished. I do see myself as an underachiever in terms of what I think I should have or could have accomplished, but those don't really count because I've accomplished a lot in the sense that I don't know that I've overachieved, but I have achieved exactly what I wanted to do. I don't know if it's what I hoped I would do, but I've sort of slowly done most of the things that I was interested in and wanted to do. And the reason I say hoped. Cause I don't know that my visibility in terms of my ego is as big as I hoped it would be. But I have actually somehow managed to do almost all the things that I set out to do when I got into show business, I. E. Having my own show, doing standup comedy, directing some episodes of that show, playing music, acting in movies and, well, obviously this podcast. But that was an outlier. I didn't expect this to happen at all. So I guess I have achieved exactly what I wanted to. I don't know if hoped is a good word because I'm not sure I have framed it properly most days that I feel like I could have not done more but gotten more attention so that hope didn't happen. And it's probably better off. Since you're currently in a relationship with a woman in her 30s, do you ever worry that you could get stuck with a kid? Well, you know, it's something we discuss. And Kit is really pretty clear about not wanting kids. We're both very involved with animals. When I met her, she worked at an animal shelter. She just got a new kitten, Maven, who's a half sibling of Charlie. And we've talked about it, but I'm pretty clear that I don't want them. And she is as well, pretty clear on it and for real reasons. And I don't really need to share those. So I don't worry I'll get stuck with a kid. With Kit, I've had those worries in the past, but that's the past. Have you been asked why you're never happy? I'm asked that question all the time, and each time I'm genuinely offended. Well, I've done jokes about that. I mean, I don't know what happy is. It's like, are you happy? I didn't. I never really saw happiness as a goal, and I guess a lot of people do. I'm Aspiring to okayness. But so I've gotten that question plenty of times in my life and my. I don't know if I get offended, but I'm just sort of like what does that even mean? And how is that a goal? Happiness is fleeting and I believe happiness is fleeting, but I do believe I experience it occasionally more so now that I'm older, I'm definitely not never happy. I'm extremely interested in the contrast between my self perception and others perception of me. Curious about where you think this comes from because most people don't give a shit it seems. Well, where it comes from for me is almost paralyzing insecurity. And also from that comes paranoia. And from that comes self consciousness and from that comes projection in terms of what you think other people are thinking about you because a lot of times they're not thinking about you at all. But generally I'm a lot harder on myself and I think people see me in a way that I see myself, which is not always great, but they don't really see that the friends I have see me for who I am and the good parts of me because usually I'm comfortable to show those parts with those people. But I think all that stuff comes from just not tremendous parenting or given a sort of grounded sense of self. You're always going to be a little paranoid, a little hyper imaginative about your impact on things and people and also just tremendously self conscious. So it's sort of a curse. But as I get older I also realize like I'm definitely not as bad as I think I am or as awkward and fucked up as I think I am. And also many people only see the part of me that is genuine and there's more of that lately. So I don't know, I have a little more self acceptance. Do you ever wake up in the middle of the night and think fuck, why did I say that? Or generally have regrets about revealing too much of yourself? Yes. I don't think it's like waking up in the middle of the night, but after a standup show or after something on the podcast, I have to kind of accept that I said it and live with the decision. Usually I don't regret it, but I don't always know why I do it and I do feel a little exposed by by it. But that is a big part of how I do what I do. Inside your comedian brain, what is the difference between you standing on stage trying to make a live audience laugh, you sitting alone with a microphone trying to make your podcast audience laugh? And you in private conversation trying to make an individual friend laugh, or is it all the same to you? No, they're all very different. You know, when you're on stage, you know, that's your purpose, that's your intent, and you're moving towards them. And you know, it's very immediate. And that is the job of the comic. You want to get laughs where you decide to get them. Sometimes it's impulsive, sometimes it's improvised, but generally that is your job. You get up there and you focus and you do the job and the craft of making the audience laugh. And there is a version of me that lives up there. These versions are not that different. Sitting alone with a microphone here, I'm not that as conscious of trying to make people laugh. And I wouldn't say that I'm always funny. I think that I'm more varied. I would say I'm less funny here than, than the other. Certainly on a stand up mic. I know when I've got something funny to say and I know that how to innately pace it. But it's not my intent on this mic to be funny all the time. I can relax in private conversation. Well, look, man, if I've got a friend and you know, you're kind of riffing it out, you're going back and forth, they say something, I say something. So it's more spontaneous, it's more exciting, it's part of the exchange. And I think that is where the idea of being naturally funny becomes very apparent. It does on the stand up stage as well, in improvising, but in conversation, where you're kind of in an interaction, a relationship in a conversation, and it kind of moves the conversation along or to add something to it. You know, I do it a lot with Sam, with Jerry, all my friends. I like making those guys laugh. And sometimes out of those conversations comes great ideas for standup. Not directly, but, you know, sometimes we're talking about humor. But they're all very different. The things that you, that you talked about here, the three me's, there's probably a couple other ones too. My dad recently started dating after my mom died. I'm wondering how your grief comes up in your current relationship with Kit. Well, I mean, my relationship with Kit began in the shadow of Lynn's death within five months. And it was, you know, the thing with Kit has evolved. I mean, we didn't know it would keep going. We were in the middle of COVID I was paralyzed with sadness. She was dealing with her own grief around things in her life. And it was more of a companionship thing that we didn't have very big expectations of out of or if any. And it went on a long time like that. And then it became a little deeper and it became a little bigger. But it's still there. And, you know, I can talk freely about it. And she, you know, has a full understanding of it. Yeah, it comes up sometimes. Have you made a will? If so, who are you leaving everything to? Well, I just redid my will and a good portion will go to my brother, if he lives. I've given a nice chunk of change to some people who are important in my life, good friends. I've also left Brendan a large sum, if it still exists when I do die, to disperse to charities that at that time are currently in need. And I've left my records to Dan at the record store. Where and when are you able to find peaceful moments in your life? I don't know. I can find him anywhere. You know, I like sitting around playing guitar. I like being out here, sitting here. I like my couch sometimes. I like hiking up the mountain. I like sitting on my porch. I do like sitting on the porch sometimes. I liked it more when I was smoking cigars. But, yeah, I can find peaceful moments on my couch. I can find them anywhere. My car, they don't last long here. I'll do one for you now. That was good. Did you feel it? That was a good one. I find a tremendous amount of peace. Cooking, that is something I do often. I like to do it. I like to have the food I like to eat. But I do like cooking. And as a matter of fact, I'm going to cook a banana bread right now, a vegan banana bread, because I got three almost rotten bananas and I'm looking forward to it. What is the best sandwich you've ever made? Shit, I don't know. That's a good question. The best sandwich I ever made. I used to enjoy making a patty melt. For reals, you know, with. With a good burger and Swiss cheese and fried onions, fried nice and brown. On rye bread, crispy toasted rye bread or grilled rye bread. You get the patty, you put the bread into the butter or oil in the pan on one side. Put the slices of cheese on each one. Get them good and fucking toasty. Put the patty in there, already cooked, and then the grilled onions. And then put the other piece on top and then press it a little bit. That's a pretty good fucking sandwich. Really good sandwich. I do enjoy the post Thanksgiving turkey Chopped liver sandwich, sometimes with a little cranberry sauce. That's a pretty good sandwich. Do you snack at the movies? Yeah, I have a big popcorn, no butter, Giant Diet Coke. Since you've been sober, what is the absolute closest you've come to drinking or taking drugs again? I don't think I've come close to drinking. I don't think I've come close to cocaine or weed. The closest I've come is the moment where you have pain medicine prescribed for pain. But, you know, you don't. You know, the pain's not as bad as would require medicine. But you figure, well, I've got the medicine and, you know, I've got a pass here, why not take it? But I don't. But I do know that pain meds, when I've gotten surgery or something like that, they work. So I have taken oxycodone when I had my tooth ripped out of my head, but just one. And then eventually I throw them out, but they do linger in the cabinet longer than they should. I'm curious what your relapse back into drugs and alcohol many decades ago was like and what precipitated it. I know you have 20 plus years of sobriety now, but you've been in the recovery community for a long time. I just think your answer might be helpful to the newcomer. Well, I don't know. What if there was a precipitating factor? I think that when I first got sober. Oh, very early on, when I got sober after. The first time I got sober was 1988, you know, and I'm coming up on 24 years. And it's. What is it, 20, 23. So do the math. You know, it took me a long time to put together the years in a row, but the first time I got sober, I went into rehab. Cause I was, you know, psychotic from sleep deprivation and cocaine abuse and, you know, just to get out of the. I got into rehab, and afterwards, I didn't really lock into the program. I went to a few meetings when I went back to New York, and then I just kind of didn't do anything. And I stayed sober for about a year and a half. And then. And then that was sort of the pattern. You know, I'd go out for a year or two, and then I'd stay sober for a year and a half. But it. It wasn't until the last time I got sober, really, in 99, that I really learned how to take in the program, understand the program, use the program, understand powerlessness, work the steps. It wasn't until 99 that I really did that. And within that year or two, upon getting sober in the late 90s, I was in and out a bit, but not much and not for very long. I didn't really relapse. Once 99 came along, that was it. And I just did what I was supposed to do. I listened to the suggestions. I went to meetings at least once a day for years. I got sponsors and it was just a matter of doing the work. And also it was helpful that I met a lot of people in the program. The woman who became my second wife in a disastrous marriage got me sober. And I think a lot of getting me into the program was driven by me wanting to be with her. Even though that didn't work out, I'm still grateful for that. Have you healed from your attachment trauma from childhood? Now this is a big question. I have never heard of the condition of attachment trauma, so I had to. I had to look it up. And I definitely have that. I'll read you a definition here from the Internet. Attachment trauma is considered to be a traumatic experience an infant or child has when a primary caregiver does not or cannot provide adequate care, affection and comfort. So that is the core of my emotional foundation, is that, you know, both of my parents were not really capable at any type of safe selflessness or nurturing type of care. My mother was very self involved, my father was completely self involved. And neither one of them really kind of lived up to the emotional responsibility of being parents. My mother, I believe, resented my brother and I. There are incidents with my brother where, you know, he was crying and she would just, you know, lock him in a bedroom cause she couldn't handle it. Turns out he had a milk allergy. And there are just a lot of different stories. And I've talked about this with my mother, so. But seeing it written out like this. Attachment trauma, and looking at it, is attachment trauma PTSD is a question here on the Internet. Attachment disorders are nearly always a symptom of C. Ptsd, ptsd, complex post traumatic stress disorder. Oftentimes looks like this. Attachment issues and relationship struggles, Intimacy issues, flashbacks, mood swings, anxiety, depression, addiction issues, Eating disorders, personality disorder traits. That sounds to me a lot like borderline. And I think that would also probably fall under the umbrella of this. But I have certainly had a lot of these relationship struggles. Intimacy issues, flashbacks, mood swings, anxiety, depression, addiction issues, Eating disorders, Personality disorder traits.
