Episode 1612 - Erin Brockovich

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron Podcast: Episode 1612 - Erin Brockovich (January 27, 2025)

In Episode 1612 of "WTF with Marc Maron," host Marc Maron engages in a profound and revealing conversation with Aaron Brockovich, a dedicated environmental and consumer advocate inspired by the legacy of Erin Brockovich. The discussion delves deep into environmental crises, community activism, infrastructure challenges, and the personal journey of advocacy. Below is a comprehensive summary capturing the key points, insights, and conclusions from their dialogue.

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1. Personal Experiences with Environmental Crises

[16:07 - 20:00]

Aaron Brockovich begins by sharing his firsthand experiences with environmental disasters, particularly wildfires that have ravaged communities. He recounts the Palisades fire during which both he and Erin Brockovich were evacuated, highlighting the immediate and personal impact such events have on individuals and communities.

• Notable Quote:
  Aaron Brockovich [17:49]: "I'm all about my PIRP, which is Plan, Implement, Realism, and be Prepared."

Aaron emphasizes the importance of preparedness in fire-prone areas, underscoring that many communities lack adequate measures despite knowing the risks.

2. Origins of Advocacy and Personal Motivation

[18:43 - 21:35]

Aaron traces his path to advocacy back to his childhood in Lawrence, Kansas, where growing up dyslexic shaped his unique perspective. His parents instilled in him a strong sense of stewardship for the environment, which became the foundation of his life's work.

• Notable Quote:
  Aaron Brockovich [21:35]: "It was my environment. And if I'd listen to it and observe it and see it and connect with it, it was actually telling and teaching me everything I needed to know."

Aaron credits his dyslexia not as a hindrance but as a superpower that allowed him to think differently and approach problems from unique angles, essential for his investigative work.

3. Structural Failures and Corporate Negligence

[27:00 - 40:55]

The conversation shifts to the systemic issues contributing to environmental disasters. Aaron critiques the antiquated infrastructure and corporate negligence that exacerbate crises like wildfires. He draws parallels with historical incidents, such as the Ford Pinto case, to illustrate how cost-cutting measures by corporations lead to catastrophic outcomes.

• Notable Quote:
  Aaron Brockovich [36:24]: "We have to fix the problem upfront and we have every ability to do it."

Aaron discusses the Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) company's exorbitant settlements following multiple fire crises, arguing that such compensations are mere band-aids over systemic failures. He advocates for comprehensive infrastructure upgrades and stricter regulations to prevent future disasters.

4. Community Empowerment and Resilience

[40:55 - 52:40]

Aaron moves the discussion towards the role of communities in combating environmental challenges. He emphasizes the power of grassroots movements and the critical role of mothers in spearheading activism. Drawing inspiration from "The Wizard of Oz," he likens modern communities to Dorothy and her companions—highlighting the need for individualism, courage, and critical thinking.

• Notable Quote:
  Aaron Brockovich [44:31]: "Every time I've been involved, it starts with a mom. Fuck with their kids, fuck with their home."

He underscores that genuine change stems from within the community, advocating for collective action and sustained effort to hold corporations and governments accountable.

5. The Role of Self-Realization and Empathy

[52:40 - 71:03]

Aaron delves into the psychological aspects of activism, discussing the importance of self-realization and empathy. He shares his personal journey of embracing vulnerability and self-acceptance, which he believes are crucial for effective advocacy.

• Notable Quote:
  Aaron Brockovich [60:17]: "We are a species floating on a blue ball in space. There's gonna be these things we can't control. But what you can control is how you feel, how you see, how you think, your observations."

Aaron advocates for a balanced approach where individuals harness their strengths while acknowledging their vulnerabilities. This balance fosters resilience and empowers communities to navigate and overcome environmental challenges.

6. Conclusions and Takeaways

[71:03 - 73:30]

As the conversation winds down, Aaron reinforces the necessity of individual and collective action. He challenges listeners to stop seeking external saviors and instead recognize their own potential to effect change.

• Notable Quote:
  Aaron Brockovich [71:27]: "Stop looking for that hero. You are that person. You have to look no further than that person in the mirror and trust yourself."

Marc Maron reflects on Aaron's insights, expressing hope that such discussions can ignite widespread community-driven efforts akin to a wildfire of positive change.

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Key Insights and Themes

1. Preparedness is Crucial: Proactive measures and community planning are essential in mitigating the impacts of environmental disasters.

2. Systemic Change Over Temporary Fixes: Addressing root causes, such as outdated infrastructure and corporate negligence, is imperative for long-term environmental sustainability.

3. Empowerment Through Self-Realization: Embracing one's strengths and vulnerabilities fosters resilience and effective advocacy.

4. Grassroots Movements Lead the Way: True change emanates from within communities, with individuals taking collective action to hold larger entities accountable.

5. Empathy as a Driving Force: Cultivating empathy enables communities to support each other and collaborate towards common goals.

Conclusion

Episode 1612 of "WTF with Marc Maron" offers a rich and engaging exploration of environmental advocacy through the lens of Aaron Brockovich's extensive experience. The conversation underscores the urgency of addressing systemic issues, the power of community-driven actions, and the importance of personal empowerment in the face of environmental adversities. For listeners seeking inspiration and actionable insights on environmental activism, this episode serves as a compelling and motivational resource.

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Subscribe and Stay Informed:
For more in-depth discussions and weekly insights, consider subscribing to Aaron Brockovich's newsletter, The Brockovich Report, available on Substack.

Transcript

[Marc Maron]

Hey, folks. If you're looking to buy or rent a place to live or you just want to have fun scrolling through dream homes, I recommend you use the Redfin app. Search all the homes for sale and apartments for rent in your neighborhood. And if you find a place you love, Redfin makes it easy to go see it in person. Just schedule a tour right from the app. Plus, if you're looking to sell, Redfin agents know how to get you the best price possible for your home. That's because they close twice as many deals as other agents, and with a listing fee as low as 1%, Redfin's fees are half of what others often charge, which means you'll have more money to put towards your next home. Download the Redfin app to get started. Yeah, do that. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers?

[Aaron Brockovich]

What the fuck, buddies?

[Marc Maron]

What the fuck? Nicks? What's happening? I'm Marc Marin. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. What's happening? You all right? Are you keeping it together? Did you get that shit done? Oh, that's an. That's a universal question. Did you get that shit done? I don't know. It's just there's so much to do. All seemingly just as important as the other thing, but most of it just bullshit. Tomorrow, if you're in Los Angeles, I'll be at Largo here in Los Angeles tomorrow night. Largo at the Coronet. Today on the show, I'm going to talk to Erin Brockovich. I guess most of you remember her name or know her by the movie that's based on her, where she was played by Julia Roberts. Her legal work and her advocacy has centered around environmental issues. And her most recent book is called Superman's Not Coming, about the country's water crisis and why it's up to citizens to. To find solutions since institutions are failing us. Her home is near the Palisades fire, and she was evacuated during the week it was raging. That was the same week I evacuated my house. Look, she just seemed like a great person to talk to as we're in the middle of yet another environmental crisis with no easy answers. And, yeah, I'd been in contact with her on Twitter years ago. Interesting person. I mean, advocacy, consumer advocacy, environmental advocacy. It's an important role. I talked about this a little bit before in the. I guess last week that thank God, if you believe in God or just be grateful that there are people that still are civic minded, want to help people, want to bring up, you know, these truths and Realities and events that are, you know, should be stopped or should be reckoned with. Pollutants, climate change stuff that we. We need to. To kind of come together on. But everybody's sort of isolated in their own little cocoon of their phone or whatever, and it. It just. I'm just. I'm very grateful for people that. That. That dedicate their life to speaking up, to. To calling shit out. You know, I mean, we live in a time where this idea of speaking truth to power, that's all well and good if you've got the. If you've got the. The courage or the wherewithal or even the. The facts to. To do it with, but now we're entering this time where power is speaking to truth. It's yelling at truth. And if power yells loudly enough at truth for a long enough time, truth kind of buckles and, you know, recedes and hides until it finds a gap through, until it finds a way through. And it's people like Aaron Brockovich that do this kind of work because power really doesn't want truth to be speaking to it. I mean, I guess that's the whole idea. I don't even know where that speaking truth to power came from. But now, like, in comedy, Jesus, man, you know, we're back in it. You know, I remember this from the. The first Trump term, you know, these weeks and months, the beginning of the administration. You know, you up on stage and you're taking it on, if that's where you're coming from, and you're making it funny. But these people, I'll call them, these people are very sore winners. They vote the guy in and they're like, well, good, now everybody can shut the fuck up. You know, there's a lot of loud power to truth people, and they're. They're still upset. They're still upset because it's so taxing for them to indulge or listen to or entertain or have any patience with anybody that thinks differently than them other than shut the fuck up or other than, like, I don't have to deal with you anymore. That's where we're at now. You make me uncomfortable, and I don't like it, and I resent you for it, and I disdain you for it, and it's just like. It's exhausting. You're just doing it. I'm just doing jokes. And some, you know, couple of drunky Trumpy people in the back at the store the other night just couldn't. Couldn't fathom that somebody was talking about their Leader in a. In a derisive way. And, you know, you get that sort of like, I thought you were supposed to be funny. And it's like, you know, I can just tell by your tone that your approval is not that important to me. And, you know, funny. It's pretty subjective. And the way this show is structured here at this club, you know, you just kind of waited out and you can't keep your mouth shut for 15 minutes until I get done. And now I have to engage with you. And I said, this is funny. There's a lot of people in here that were laughing. And she, she said, well, well, you were talking about freedom of speech, so I'm speaking up. And I'm like, yeah, but there's no freedom of speech here in this club where I'm the guy with the mic and the, the act on stage. It's a, you know, I'm, I'm talking. And that's, that's the context of this situation we're in. And I'm telling you, man, they had it had to take her out. And she was yelling. It's like, I know if it's getting me, but are you talking about politics? And it's just like, God damn, it's just an upward slog when you're working at these rooms where you're performing for everyone. And, And I get it, you know, I understand you're upset because you won't and someone's, you know, fucking with your buzz. And look, you know, I. I try to be as diplomatic as possible, but it does. You know, when the trend is for power to yell at truth or to tell truth to shut the up, it becomes kind of a different job. This weekend. I'll be in Santa Barbara, California at the Libero Theater on Thursday, January 30. San Luis Obispo, California at the Fremont center on Friday, January 31. Monterey, California at the Golden State Theater, Saturday, February 1. Iowa City at the Englert on Thursday, February 13. Des Moines, Iowa, at Hoyt Sherman Place on Friday, February 14. Kansas City, Missouri at the Midland on Saturday, February 15. Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Peel on Thursday, February 20. Nashville, Tennessee at the James K. Polk Theater on Friday, February 21. Louisville, Kentucky at the Bomb Hard. Always love that one. The challenge is there for you. Bombard, which I hope I don't. Theater on Saturday, February 21. Lexington, Kentucky, at the Lexington Opera House on Sunday, February 22. March and April. I'll be coming to Oklahoma, Texas, South Carolina, Illinois, Michigan. I have some new dates to announce. This week. So check out my social pages and go to wtfpod.com tour for all of my dates and links to tickets. I'm very hung up on the. The idea of dehumanization through language and through tone. And I think there's something about the isolation we all live in, even among people because of our devices and how we take in information, that it trivializes the human component. I think that conspiracy thinking that, you know, as opposed to just dealing with the humanity of a situation, once you start speculating about the. The reason it happened or the intentions, no matter how far fetched, what you're erasing is the humanity of the situation. And I. Look, I know this isn't funny, but it's just some, some part of my brain is working on that. And I keep thinking about those, the Lenny Bruce pieces where he started doing all the slangs for all the different types of people, people for Jewish people, for Italians or whatever. And you start doing this idea about what language means and what words mean and that they're just words. And I get that, and I think that's true. But words through repetition that diminish the humanity of people or groups of people, you're taking away the idea or the reality that these are all separate, different people with different lives, different aspirations, different journeys to where they've gotten. They might be good people, they might be bad people, but whatever the case, they're individual human beings that are being lumped together under a label specifically to dehumanize them with language. So it's easier to not see them as people who are vulnerable. And I don't know that comes into play. All the things that we deal with in our life and how we get information and how repetition of certain labels and derisive and dismissive and hostile categorizations really enable people to not engage empathy and empathy. You have to, you have to work it. It's a muscle. You have to work. I don't think it happens naturally. I think in moments of crisis that people usually show up for each other because it's in those moments, seeing real suffering or tragic moments like fires or war or whatever, that people show up for people because they can see their own humanity and the humanity of others. But that's not a day to day occurrence. And the tone of commentary and culture and political speak is now operating at such an amped up level. Look, I used to do radio and I was thinking about this too, because when I did radio, I have to get into the mode of talking with a certain intensity without stopping. It's a focus that, that relies certain on a specific energy to drive it. And I think people are so amped up with their anger, their grievance, or their actual contempt or hate that the risk of taking a breather or being forced to take a breather because somebody is saying something contrary to what you believe, it's a frightening thing that they don't want to deal with. There's this. I think there's this condition where people have successfully disconnected themselves from their humanity for ideological reasons. And those ideological reasons happen at a very high kind of intensity. And that they don't want it to slow down because the risk there, not unlike a narcissist actually seeing himself. The risk there is that you'll be confronted with your own humanity. And I guess I think we need more of that, and we're going to need more of it going forward. Today's episode is sponsored by Squarespace. The best way to create a beautiful website. And now there are even more Squarespace features that will help you build your online presence. You get design intelligence from Squarespace, which combines all the platform tools that make Squarespace great. With cutting edge AI technology to unlock your strongest creative potential, anyone can build a beautiful, more personalized website tailored to their unique needs. There's also Squarespace Payments, the easiest way to manage your payments in one place. Onboarding is fast and simple. Get started in just a few clicks and start receiving payments right away while your customers get more ways to pay using the most popular payment methods. Check out wtfpod.com to see website powered by Squarespace. We've been using a Squarespace site for almost a decade now, and it's never let us down. Go to squarespace.com wtf for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com WTF offer code WTF. So we're still talking about the fires. We just got rain here for a couple of days. Oh, my God. Thank God, if you believe in God. I mean, such a relief. And there's no breathing space between, you know, fire and rain. You know, the rains were coming on the, on the, you know, this after these monumentally horrible fires. And right away it's like mudslides. Look out for mudslides. It's just, just let's, let's just get wet. Can we just get wet, please? Make everything wet. So Erin Brockovich is a consumer advocate, environmental advocate, and she fights the good fight. And that is her life. Her newsletter is called the Brockovich Report, which you can subscribe to on substack. January 8th edition is titled An Unsettling Start to the New Year, which includes a lot of info about the fires. And it was a pleasure to talk to her and to be inspired in a way, because we all get into our own lives and our own lives are important, and we just hope the outside world doesn't crush us. And it's hard to know how you can help. And this conversation with Aaron was helpful to me. Maybe it will be to you. This is me talking to Aaron Brockovich. Okay, people, all you folks with growing families know this. The bigger the family, the more people there are who want the best seat in the family vehicle. But that's all changed with the 3 row Lexus TX. When the folks at Lexus made a luxury 3 row SUV that's in tune with every passenger, each seat feels like the best seat. The three row Lexus TX is loaded with innovative tech, plenty of legroom and intuitive features that anticipate everyone's needs. They designed the Lexus TX so that every seat lets passengers plug in or just unwind. It's going to be the most comfortable and versatile place you've ever listened to this podcast. And that third row isn't an afterthought. The cabin has been designed to have passengers of all sizes more immediately access the spacious third row. With the spaciousness and luxury of the tx, everybody wins. Which makes it the perfect vehicle for today's modern families. No matter who's in your crew, there's a place for everyone in the tx. The three row Lexus tx. This is more than a three row suv. This is the era of three row luxury.

[Aaron Brockovich]

You've got our allergies. Is that what's going on?

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, yeah. So you know, just the winds, everything in the air.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I have tons of allergies. I have my whole life.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Really.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's just who I am.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Really?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Aaron Brockovich]

And you just live with them?

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, absolutely. You know, I know what not to eat, but when you get situations like this, everybody realizes the stuffy nose, the lungs.

[Aaron Brockovich]

I know, my lungs are all fucked up. Yep. Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. That's why I started the Medrol dose back.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Keep it clear.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Is it helping?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, it just makes my face look like I've got a sunburn.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Like you're a little wind woman.

[Unnamed Guest]

Or my eyes pupils are real big. Everyone's like, you okay? I'm like, oh yeah, I'm wound for sex.

[Aaron Brockovich]

So did you Were you affected directly by the fires?

[Unnamed Guest]

No. Well, we always can be. I live out in Agoura Hills, so I was evacuated. Gone the Woosley fires. So this whole area, you know, we're a fire zone.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah, I know.

[Unnamed Guest]

We. So Bell Canyon caught fire where they were calling it the Kenneth Fire.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Oh yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And we got a mandatory evacuation for 10 million, which ended up being for how many? 10 million people. Uh huh. It's like. And they sent the mandatory evacuation notice by mistake.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Oh yeah, I saw that one.

[Unnamed Guest]

That was us.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah. Okay, how much panic was there? Was there a flurry of.

[Unnamed Guest]

So I live in the Gore Hills and Camarillo is 19 miles from me.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Took me three hours to get there.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Oh my God. So you left on that emergency evac to find out that it wasn't correct. And were you ready? Did you have all your stuff? Do you have dogs?

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, I'm ready. So I'm all about my pirp, which is plan, implement, realism and be prepared.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I think that's what we've all missed here in the fires. Not all of us. You know, I have very specific concerns and opinions about it, but this shouldn't have happened. We should have been way more prepared.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Well, yeah, I mean, I. I mean I've. I've read some of this stuff and like this sort of, I mean, the life of somebody who has chosen to do consumer advocacy in a. In a world of malignant capitalism, it just feels like a tall order. But I mean, going back to your original, you know, impetus for doing this was, you know, which was the thing that they made the movie about and everything else. But like, were you like that before or was that like some sort of like brain changing white light moment that that was gonna be your life?

[Unnamed Guest]

So I was like that before. I'm a dyslexic.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

So very early on in my life, I saw things differently, I felt things differently, I learned differently. And I was always categorized as special needs.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

I had a mom and dad that were extremely helpful to me that taught me so many things.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Where was this? Where'd you grow up?

[Unnamed Guest]

Lawrence ke Kansas.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Oh, okay. And your folks?

[Unnamed Guest]

Chalk Jayhawk. Go ku.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah. What'd your folks do?

[Unnamed Guest]

So my mom is a journalist and sociology major and was editor in chief of the KU Alumni Association.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Okay.

[Unnamed Guest]

And then my father is a mechanical engineer and built and ran the pipelines for Citigroup.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Okay. So, well, these were like, you know, educated, self aware, smart people.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right. And their frustration was my dyslexia, which was my frustration Was school?

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah. Like, how bad was it? Like, what were your major problems? Reading.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. Well, it's how I put things backwards, which is interesting. So I kind of flip things around, which at the time in a conformed learning environment wasn't acceptable.

[Aaron Brockovich]

So you start at the end?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, well, interestingly enough, that's how I figure out my cases. You have to go back to source to find how it happened.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

So then you can get answers.

[Aaron Brockovich]

It was helpful. Like, this is the decision.

[Unnamed Guest]

I didn't realize that till I stood in Hinckley, California and I let these instincts come into me. I could feel them, I could see them. The absence of wildlife, green water, two headed frogs. I didn't need anyone to tell me this is a fucked up situation.

[Aaron Brockovich]

And that was the first big case, right?

[Unnamed Guest]

Correct.

[Aaron Brockovich]

And so you were just. You got the paperwork as a paralegal and you went out and just saw what was.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, And I couldn't help myself because my entire upbringing is about. And my father taught me, your greatest gifts are your land, air, water and family and health.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And that it would be my responsibility to be a good steward to the land and to the water. And when I saw what was happening in Hinckley and I had my dyslexia on board, which I thought would be the downfall in my life, it was my superpower.

[Aaron Brockovich]

So was that like a biblical thing? Your people were just. Your parents were just sort of aware, like, you know, like the stewardship of the planet thing. Do you grow up religious?

[Unnamed Guest]

Actually, no. I think from both of my parents, especially from my father's perspective as an engineer. He saw the things out there, but just the land. There wasn't any real religion for me. It was the land.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Right? Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

It was the water.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

It was my environment.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And if I'd listen to it and observe it and see it and connect with it, it was actually telling and teaching me everything I needed to know.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah, well, yeah, well, that's. You would think that most people would be like that, but it seems like we're so far removed from it.

[Unnamed Guest]

We are. So, you know, I have. I don't know if Dan told you, I've been fascinated. First of all, I was born and raised in Kansas, so I love wizard of Oz.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Sure.

[Unnamed Guest]

But I've been truly fascinated with L. Frank Baum and why he wrote the book the wizard of Oz. There's a unbelievable, very well studied political allegory to the wizard of Oz and its meaning. And it's mind blowing. So it starts, you Know, Dorothy's a representation in his book. So he wrote his original book, the wizard of Oz, as a way to teach his children the power of individualism and thinking for oneself in a world that would increasingly begin to speak for you. Right there. You had my attention.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, I get that.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

But the elements, and you can go to Google them and read all of these political allegories, they're all the same and very well studied. Dorothy represents the girl next door.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

All of us want to be that girl next door and have our life and our journey. And we know in the film she grew up in Kansas and she ran away from home. You know, we're always like, I want to run away from my parents. And as she was running away, you see, she met kind of like the snake oil guy who ended up in the inn being the wizard. And there was a tornado. The tornado was a disruption. Was a representation of disruption in Washington, D.C. so she goes home, gets hit in the head and lands in Oz.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

She lands on the munchkins, who are representation of the masked citizens. And they thought Dorothy was there to rescue him. So he told her to follow the yellow brick road.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Right?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, the yellow brick road. The gold standard.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Follow the path of money.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Oh, wow.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. So back in the day, they were pushing between silver and gold as being the standard. So follow the goldpass standard of money. So off Dorothy goes, she meets the Scarecrow, who's a representation of the American farmer who everyone at that time thought had no brain because the banks were buying up all the land. I go, that's very interesting.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Because you see these same things happening today.

[Aaron Brockovich]

It never changes. Really. Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And then so off those two go, and they meet the Cowardly lion, who's a representation of L. Frank Baum's best friend, William Brian Jenning, always running for populist, known for his fiery rhetoric, but had no courage.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Oh, okay.

[Unnamed Guest]

And off they go. And they meet the Tin Man, a representation of industry worker who would lose his heart. So, you know the story. Off we go, follow the yellow road. They get put to sleep in the poppy fields. Yeah, the poppy fields, of all things.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Which could be a representation of Big Pharma.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Big pharma or media or anything that puts religion, maybe. Yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And so in that poppy field, and there's so many parallels that I see to what has been going on with us and where we are today. They got comfortable.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

We got complacent. And I can say that because there's been moments where I clearly have.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And the wicked witch wakes him up, the good witch wakes him up. They go find the wizard. And here's the moral to the story of where I think we've been maybe asleep in the poppy fields. Maybe we were comfortable, maybe we were complacent, maybe we bought an illusion. But at the end of the day, they saw there was no wizard. And here's the message they had forgotten. You have a brain to be your own critical thinker. You have a heart and you have the courage. And we've been in that parallel, and I think we are in that moment again where we are finding that.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Within ourselves.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Right, right.

[Unnamed Guest]

It's my moment where we are posed to become the Jetsons, yet the Flintstones are hanging around.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And we got to be the gladiator.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Well, here's the thing that I guess that through your experience of, of the, this consumer advocacy and suing these large companies and the arc of how a case like that unfolds. And so I imagine sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't. Sometimes the criminals pay up for the damages they cause and sometimes they weasel out of it. But nonetheless, whether they pay up or they don't, you know, people are destroyed, people are sick, people, communities are destroyed. So I think what is hard for me to wrap my brain around is that you're able, and maybe this is fortitude or part of the dyslexia, to sort of somehow frame it in a way where you're not going to lose your mind or become despairing or hopeless, that there's this idea that if you chip away and you keep making these stands that I don't know if we'll solve the problem. But at least you're trying.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. And through my 30 years on the ground and the work, I can see where the problems are. And if you really back it up to source, I mean, first of all.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

In, I see in my environmental work, and I kind of compare it to the Ford Pinto theory way back in the day. Remember the bottom line thing? Yeah, yeah, the bottom line.

[Aaron Brockovich]

We can take the hit, you know, as opposed to reconnecting cars.

[Unnamed Guest]

The problem.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah. We're going to kill people.

[Unnamed Guest]

Can't do that anymore. We need to fix the problem on the up front and we have every ability to do it.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Okay. I, I, but like, like, let's say like, we start this in the situation we're in now, which is for me, you know, I'm watching the, the, the Duty Watch app, you know, every 10 minutes, you know, the evacuation line got pretty close to where I am, but it didn't.

[Unnamed Guest]

I see that coming in.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah. It was over there by the two. Right. But like, that area, nothing burned over there. But, like, I didn't know. I was looking at my app. I'm like, red is bad, you know, I don't care what shade it is. You know, I. And I thought. And I left, you know, for a night. But in. In my mind, I mean, as you said earlier, we knew. We knew this could happen, you know, forever. I mean, you know, they. You know, I think the natives didn't even want to live here because of those winds. You know, hundreds of years ago, Joan Dinian wrote about. In the 60s. But. And. And we. You talk about infrastructure a lot. But my first reaction is, well, I gotta get the fuck out of here.

[Unnamed Guest]

Of course. And that's a good instinct. We need that. In Hinckley. I learned about what I call my three L's. Logic, your common sense. Leverage, the power of a community. And logic. Leverage and loyalty. Loyalty is your stick to itiveness.

[Aaron Brockovich]

So loyalty to yourself.

[Unnamed Guest]

Correct.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Not loyalty to. Because I got a little pushback when I talked about this is never gonna change. And either you adapt or leave. And there was no crime in that. But some people are.

[Unnamed Guest]

I don't believe that at all. I don't think we have to adapt or leave here. And we certainly don't have to adapt to these fires. We're never gonna change the wind. We can talk about climate change. It is what it is, but we're not gonna change it. But what we can do is respect it and prepare for it. And there's many things that we can do to prepare us should there be another fire.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

And listen, I do not like politics, but. And I try to stay out of it. But after this Palisade fire, I'm looking right at our legislative people and governor and insurance commissioners in the state who have been in office for almost, what, eight years now.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And been a part of the 10 worst fires this state has seen.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

We should have known better. We can do better, but we haven't been. We're not dealing with our infrastructure. We're not dealing with these matters on the up front. We have ways to become more prepared for these fires. We need to change how we're building. We need to change our infrastructure. We need to bury our lines. And this has all been on the table for eight years. Yet the failure to implement for eight years.

[Aaron Brockovich]

I mean, when I was living in Highland park and I had a gas leak and we were trying to track it and the gas company came and they dug a hole into the street in front of my house to expose a connection. And I said, oh, my God. I mean, you know, how old is that thing? And this guy was like. The guy was like, 1901. And I'm like, is the whole city like that? And he's like, yeah, don't tell anybody.

[Unnamed Guest]

No, it is.

[Aaron Brockovich]

But that becomes this weird thing. I mean, I don't know if it's a lack of foresight. I don't know how it could be. I mean, you're dealing with the technology you're dealing with at any given time that you're putting things in place. But I mean, once you bury those lines, I mean, I guess what you're talking about, and I'm just being a devil's advocate, how do you rewire or re, you know, pipe an entire city that's 10ft deep?

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, that's where I talk about PIRP. What's your plan?

[Aaron Brockovich]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

Let's get a plan.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Okay.

[Unnamed Guest]

How are you going to implement it? And in implementation, I think it's critical that you. Because I'll go from implementation to. Are you being realistic?

[Aaron Brockovich]

Okay.

[Unnamed Guest]

Full transparency at implementation.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

We're not going to have this fixed tomorrow.

[Aaron Brockovich]

No.

[Unnamed Guest]

It's going to be decades. So in the interim, if all those boxes aren't checked off yet, be prepared. And there's many things you can do to begin to be prepared. And I would quickly look at infrastructures in and out California with power lines above ground.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

I would look at the state's obligation with these utilities to clear their brush, to clear their underbrush. All of these critical routine maintenance that's not followed through on, and then year after year it just accumulates and you're gonna get a windstorm here. It's gonna happen. But I'm very concerned. We're not addressing our grid and infrastructure failures in this state.

[Aaron Brockovich]

And do you think that is because of budgetary reasons or just laziness or. I mean, do you think that people are delusional enough? Because I know people on the ground like myself, you know, something like this happens and it's still burning and your brain is like, well, I'm just gonna. I gotta get back to my routine. It's not here now. You know what I mean?

[Unnamed Guest]

They don't foresee the future, that, hey, I live in a fire zone. Hey, these infrastructures are going to fail. And it's about putting the investment on the up front. And nobody wants to do that. They like to kick the can down the Line. They don't want to interrupt.

[Aaron Brockovich]

To keep their budgets. Right?

[Unnamed Guest]

Correct.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I'm really deeply concerned. Gavin Newsom administration. It's right there on their budget. 24, 25. They cut $100 million out of it. Why would you do that? So I don't always know what they're thinking, but I think they need to reprioritize. Especially when you live in a state of California, you know, you have wins. You're not gonna change it. We talked about going back to the days of the Indians. We know that it's here, so get fricking prepared. And we are more than capable of doing things like that right now. You know, I live out in Agora Hills. We're very fortunate we haven't always been wiped out by fires. And there's an interesting phenomenon that I've observed and people talk about a lot. We have a firebreak around the city. They're called goats. They eat everything.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And then you have a fire break. There's so many things we can do and I.

[Aaron Brockovich]

You're thinking flying in more goats?

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, yeah. Let them go. Let them live their life out there. I mean, they're wonderful. See, there's so many things that we could be implementing even in nature that can make things better.

[Aaron Brockovich]

It's so funny. Not funny. It was very sad and touching, though. I saw a reel on Instagram of a woman who went back to her burned down house and her sheep were alive.

[Unnamed Guest]

I saw the same thing and I bawled for a day.

[Aaron Brockovich]

I know.

[Unnamed Guest]

Let's talk about this. Let's look to nature. How did they know where to go?

[Aaron Brockovich]

I don't know where they went. You know, they must have stayed ahead of us.

[Unnamed Guest]

Always thinks we're gonna be beat out and be smarter than nature. Instead of trying to do that, I want us to start learning from it. This power of observation you have, what is it they're doing? How is it they know? What is it they can offer? This is the same thing that happened for me in Hinckley. It's the same thing that happened to me in Kansas. It's. We wanna know why. But we won't accept it is. And learn from it.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah. Well, I mean, that's the hardest thing. That's what I was gonna tell you before, is that when I talked about leaving, I had a lot of people that were like, we love our city. We're gonna build back better and bigger. And I'm like, well, I don't. This, like, the wind is not gonna go away. It's not and this is the reality of where we're at now. But when you talk about this stuff and the other cases you've kind of been involved with, I mean, how do you. Like, in the same way there's individual denial in order to survive or in order to maintain some sort of semblance of life and routine. I mean, I really don't understand. I understand the idea of greed, but I don't understand at what point, you know, I guess the corporate mindset just becomes completely insensitive to the struggle of regular people. Because I don't know how these corporations or these people that are polluting the environment one way or the other are causing these problems can go on knowing that there are these. The results of what they're doing are killing the planet that we all live on. I mean, I don't. Do they have some other secret plan? Is it New Zealand? What are they thinking?

[Unnamed Guest]

New Zealand won't let them in.

[Aaron Brockovich]

How do you bend that? In your experience with pushing back on corporate structures, how do you bend them into understanding that we have to go the other direction?

[Unnamed Guest]

I think we had to go through everything we've had to go through to get here today because I think the bend is ready to break. And here's why. Talking about the Ford Pinto theory, back in the day, hinckley settled for $333.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Million to the township or the city settled.

[Unnamed Guest]

And people got that money who were poisoned and all of that.

[Aaron Brockovich]

And where was this? It's here in California now. For people that don't know, the Ford Pinto thing was that when the Pinto was made, a few of them were blowing up and killing people and they realized that it would be cheaper to.

[Unnamed Guest]

Pay the lawsuits to fix the problem.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

So there is an antiquated theory. All these antiquated. And infrastructure is part of exactly what we're talking about. That is your fix the problem, fix what's wrong on the line they've been used to. We can pay out the lawsuits because they got a lot of money, Right? Here's where it's going to flip. So hinckley settled for $333 million. Now, I've been chasing PGE up and down the state for 30 years. You know, they did the same thing in Kettlemen. Let's talk about the same Kettleman. Exact same problem with hexavalent chromium and antiquated cooling towers. Antiquated? Antiquated. They're running in the middle, like from the 40s, 50s. Yeah. So what happens with the gas? We push and pull through the state comes out of Texas. So its first stop is going to be in Topoc. And you build these gas compressor plants that can push and pull the gas up the line.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Natural gas.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yes.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

So then it goes to Hinckley. So they have these huge compressor stations and it operates kind of like your car. And they're running water through the system so it doesn't cease to operate.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Because they're pushing and pulling all of this gas.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

So they add these chemicals that are corrosion and rust inhibitors.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

And then they dump it into unlined ponds. I remember in Hinckley talking to my dad and he goes, are you sure they're still operating that way, Aaron? That's a very antiquated system.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, after the lawsuit, they're now fan cooled. So they've upgraded the system. Kettleman is exactly what happened in Hinckley. Just up in Kettleman city, along the 5 following the pipelines. And then you had the San Bruno explosion. That was antiquated failed infrastructure.

[Aaron Brockovich]

What was that?

[Unnamed Guest]

Where the gas pipelines blew up and killed people. And blew up an entire neighborhood outside of San Francisco.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Oh, my God.

[Unnamed Guest]

And then, you know, you follow them up to the Dixie fire, the Kincaid fires, the paradise fire. Oh, my gosh. The idea that there wasn't more dust coming out of Pacific Palisades, it blows my mind.

[Aaron Brockovich]

There wasn't more deaths.

[Unnamed Guest]

I mean, they were in a very precarious situation.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Happened so fast.

[Unnamed Guest]

Pacific Palisades, these fires were very much paradise and Maui in one. And it's so upsetting and it's so frustrating to me because it does. We're not learning. And it doesn't have to be this way. So what happened with PG and E? And this is my philosophy, my observations from 30 years on the ground, working with attorneys, seeing the lawsuits, being there with the communities. It settled for about 38 billion. If I'm going to look at this company and what they had to pay out. Look, hinckley settled for 333 million.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

But what we're not adding to that. And the corporation is looking at 100 year cleanup. You can easily add another hundred million plus to the 333 million for a hundred year cleanup order. Not to mention defense cost. So PGE settled for way more and cost PG and E way more than $333 million. But if I calculate that all the way to the fires at 38 billion, this company is on the brink of paying more out in damages and litigation than the value of the company.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

They're figuring out that's not working out for them. So we need to change antiquated business models as well.

[Aaron Brockovich]

As well as the equipment.

[Unnamed Guest]

Absolutely. So if you look at all the money PGE's paid out in these fires and the value of that, had you used that to upgrade your infrastructures, we wouldn't be in this position. So it's going to take a lot of corporate work in changing a business model. That may have worked then, Mark. It will not work now.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah, what about the whole idea of kind of aggressive developers who are probably gonna, you know, I don't know what happens to Altadena, you know, but I imagine that a lot of those people aren't gonna get paid out properly. That the rebuilding process is gonna be, you know, overwhelming. But, you know, how do you stop developers from buying people out at a low dollar to just take over an entire neighborhood or community?

[Unnamed Guest]

These conversations, working with people. And this is where, you know, let me. If you've watched the film Aaron Brockovich, hell no. I hate lawyers. I just work for them. It's kind of true. But there will be a time where you need them because they are gonna be there to ensure things like that don't happen. And this is where state legislation, Gavin Newsom can come in and stop those kind of things.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Well, he did some of that with the rental hikes and with eviction notices immediately.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, that's because we shouldn't even be here having this conversation. So he needs to get in front of this and do it very, very, very, very quickly. So it is conversations like this, being on the ground with these people, having town halls, giving them information so they don't make a mistake where they cave to, you know, these developers coming in really quickly and they're, listen, I'm gonna tell you something. These communities are real, really savvy.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Now you've burnt their home to the ground. They are thankful. They're devastated, but they're thankful to be alive. They are critical thinkers. They have instincts. They operate that. I'll tell you one thing I know for absolutely positively certain, everything I've learned in 30 years. Do not underestimate these people. And never, ever underestimate a pissed off mom in that community. And they will be there. They will do exactly what I saw and learned. They use their power of observations. They have a very keen instinct, intuition. They will start organizing and working with their neighbors. And I'm going to tell you, they already know what my mom taught me. And that's the power of stick to itiveness. They're in this for the long game. And I am. I wish more people could experience this with me in these communities. It's a real phenomenon and they are popping up everywhere because here's the wizard of Oz moment. They're figuring out there is no fucking wizard, man. And game on. I'm coming the gladiator. I'm coming in informed. I'm using and relying on intuition and instinct that everyone thinks is a bunch of bullshit and it is not.

[Aaron Brockovich]

And good information.

[Unnamed Guest]

Correct.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah. And that's, that's another tricky thing to find now.

[Unnamed Guest]

It is good information. We'll definitely be out there, the best we can be to provide that type of information. And yeah, there's going to be a lawsuit in Southern Caledison again. After your Woosley fire and your Thomas fire and all this. You're probably going to be like, pg. Listen, this is, is not working out for you guys.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah. I mean, so that, like when you, in your experience of, you know, bringing communities together to fight these fights, you say it starts almost most of the time with moms.

[Unnamed Guest]

Every time, really. Going back to Hinckley, California, the original mom, Roberta Walker, one of my best friends in life, a mom.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yes.

[Unnamed Guest]

She saw what was going on. She knew two headed frogs wasn't normal. The water was green, the trees were dying. Nothing made sense to her, but yet she could scream from the rooftops and nobody was listening to her. And she kept pushing through that. And then I came out and then we joined forces and then we join other mothers. Every single time I've been involved, it starts with a mom. Fuck with their kids, fuck with their home. Those instincts kick in for them. They know it's real. It is. Is real. It's speaking to you. But we're so busy doing other things, you won't stop to listen to it. This is where I've learned. My head, my heart and my gut, if it's not in alignment, something's off. But they will organize, they will fight. And it's worth it to him. It's a message that I heard from my father. It is your job to be a steward to the land, to the water, to the family, to your health. They know it's. And they're popping up everywhere. And when I get involved in these communities, I turn from that advocate, if you will, to their greatest cheerleader. They got the ball and you need to let them run with it. And then I can get to another community and watch them do the same.

[Aaron Brockovich]

And what do you do when you do that? Do you make sure that they're Represented well or how does it work? You know, once it can be a.

[Unnamed Guest]

Whole lot of things.

[Aaron Brockovich]

So they move through the state government generally and it starts with town halls and then it starts with, you know, pushing back on state representatives. Yes, but at what point do you know who says like, well, you got to get a lawyer. And are you, is that part of your gig?

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, so in like Altadena, Pete, when you have a utility that caused the.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Fire, now do they know that for sure?

[Unnamed Guest]

That's my understanding at this point in.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Altitude that Altadena, that one of those towers shorted out in the wind.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, that's aged infrastructure.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Well, I mean, but that happens a lot. I mean these, these towers are always blowing up or these power stations, they.

[Unnamed Guest]

Have to get out there and replace the aged infrastructure. You remember the Paradise Fire? We all do.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, 100 year old transmission transmitter, blue 100-year-old. So where is it? And I think state governors here in California, the puc, you have an obligation to, to follow through and oversee. Are these utilities upgrading the infrastructures? Where's the problems on their lines? Are they clearing their brush? Are they doing what they need to do to prevent this type of scenario happening again? I'm not sure when they're gonna figure it out. I think if you, if you keep hitting them, I mean, what is the estimated worth of these fires? $160 billion.

[Aaron Brockovich]

But also like, you know, but you're still up against the fact that, you know, you have lunatics who set fires, you have other sources of fire, and you have these conditions that aren't going to change and you're not going to be able to manage all the brush.

[Unnamed Guest]

Let the goats go.

[Aaron Brockovich]

That's right.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's about that. But it is a really good way to keep that brush in check. And we're going to have to stay on top of the utilities regarding their infrastructure.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah, I mean, that seems to be the key element. And the weird thing about there is no wizard that goes both ways. There's no wizards coming to help you. But there's also no one effectively outside of people that do what you do. Looking out for people. I mean, we have this basic understanding or this false sense of security that like, well, all that stuff's taken care of. We're outdoing. We just know that, well, my power's on, so that's good. But we don't know, most people don't know what's really going on in terms of, of infrastructure in any way. We take it for granted.

[Unnamed Guest]

So here, that's the wizard of Oz. See, we are in our awakening. The facade has slipped, the curtain's being pulled back and I think many of us are realizing, what the fuck, There is no Wizard. So really I'm gonna go to what just hit me and I shared it on social media today. We're moving into the Jetsons. We all know it. Yeah, we're moving into the future.

[Aaron Brockovich]

So like, yeah, I talked to somebody the other day that, you know, in terms of rebuilding and in terms of changing building materials, it's gonna look like everyone's gonna live in cement houses.

[Unnamed Guest]

No, it doesn't have to be that way. There's many other ways to build, to develop. I've seen some of those newer to.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Secure communities from the. At least to temper the risk.

[Unnamed Guest]

And that's a good word. Absolutely. So there's always this idea, one way or no way, my way or the highway.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's ridiculous. If we're even going to talk about renewable energies, it's not just one thing. It's going to be a multi prong approach. It could be six, seven different avenues. And it's the same thing in rebuilding our homes. And it doesn't have to be those cement blocks. I saw one with some of the new construction, how they do grass on the roof.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Sure, yeah. It's been going on for a while and it's beautiful.

[Unnamed Guest]

But it can stop fires from burning the whole house down. So I think we have to break out that we're so accustomed to just kind of one way. It's that comfortability and sometimes it's the.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Cheap way, which is where you run into the problem.

[Unnamed Guest]

You can. And it's finding that balance. It's striking that balance.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Now in the face of the political culture that we're about to enter, where, you know, you have a sort of unbridled champion of disaster capitalism and a seeming lack of care or acknowledgment of science. Do you just see that as making your or the people's struggle more difficult? Because like a lot of what you're saying makes sense to me and I'm not doubting that. People on the ground, in communities, once something horrible happens, they mobilize. But there's also a lot of people that have given up in some way and that are despairing or despondent or hopeless. So how do you. If they don't wake up to the disaster, how do we start to mobilize that world? Out of your purview or.

[Unnamed Guest]

No, it's not out of my purview because I see it every day. And I'll keep kind of going back to Hinckley to kind of, I hope, answer the question you're asking. So I feel things, I see things. I know it sounds really weird, but this is who I am. And I think it's because of my dyslexia that this is what I'm connected to. I run into exactly what you asked me. When I get into these communities, they feel hopeless. They shut the door on me. I can't deal with it. And you have to respect that and, and let them feel that. And what I do is bring them information. That's it. Give them a moment to read it, to look at it. Because I've learned 99% of the time when they do, if you respect that hopelessness that they're feeling and let them feel it, but give them some information, they will eventually, in their own time, maybe take a look at it, maybe make that phone call and maybe come out of it. And I've seen it everywhere I've gone.

[Aaron Brockovich]

And then how do you deal with the people that in their hopelessness, become angry and grievance driven and are easily manipulated by more insidious forces to push back on the truth?

[Unnamed Guest]

I've learned just acceptance with them that they're there. And if you're feeling uncertain, don't hesitate to call me. If we could just share with others that we are vulnerable in of itself. Acknowledging that you find empowerment, well, that's.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Interesting that there is a breaking point of like, hopelessness is one thing, but anger is another. But eventually that has a breaking point as well.

[Unnamed Guest]

It does, and it's a process. But we've been taught, you know, it's wrong to be vulnerable. That means you're weak. That means I can step on you. And I have learned my vulnerability was dyslexia. And when I could embrace that as a superpower, I became empowered. And everyone has to get there on their own. And communities in devastation, they often do. They'll begin to look at that there is nothing wrong. Nothing wrong, especially in this situation, to be able to say, because we've been taught not to, because it means you're weak. When you can say, I'm scared, I'm fearful, I'm not certain, and own that vulnerability. It flips to empowerment quickly.

[Aaron Brockovich]

And then also I imagine having to deal with people that instinctively, because there is some part of the tone of how we're talking here is that there's a profound ineffectiveness and negligence on behalf of state representatives and government who have ultimately are being kind of turned out by business in a state. Right. And then you have a lot of people, a lot of people who are fundamentally against the government in terms of. They just see that as a racket. And on some level it is, because we talked about that. But how do you shift, you know, that sentiment? Because, you know, the only other way to deal with these things is through, you know, privatization, which, you know, leaves the sort of vulnerability of total greed and ineffectiveness. You know, and sometimes the government works hand in hand with obviously, corporate powers. But, I mean, how do we get people to believe? Because what we're talking about here is that, you know, representative democracy has to work in this situation. Right, right. On a state level. So I think the other obstacle is getting people to believe that government is necessary.

[Unnamed Guest]

Again, there's a balance there. And I hear exactly what you're saying. And I've learned, we have been taught and believed that there's this huge umbrella that everything's coming down from the top to us. Flip that it begins with us and it builds from there. And I always envision, and I see it happen in communities, and you are going to see it happen here again. You will see the community of Pacific Palisades, you will see the community of Altadena. Believe me, they're going to rise. They will become that gladiator. I know it, I believe it and I've seen it. But if in every situational disaster we have across this country, if every community did just that, light that up, you've answered, and start to solve the problems at the source across the entire country.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Well, how come, like, I guess so.

[Unnamed Guest]

Don'T think about the bigger picture. Deal with what's in front of you.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Right. And also, like, you know, I guess you have to sort of like, you talk about these moms and stuff, but there does feel like, outside of how you're talking, and I'm sure there's a lot of people that have the same sort of focus and anger that you have that, you know, there is this idea that maybe there isn't a wizard, but you kind of want a leader you can believe in. You know, in terms of believe in yourself.

[Unnamed Guest]

That is what I've learned. That's why I wrote Superman. This is what I talk about. Stop looking for that hero. You are that person. You have to look no further than that person in the mirror and trust yourself. Believe in yourself. That's what's been missing. You're missing you. Because we're so busy looking for somebody else to do it.

[Aaron Brockovich]

You or someone to blame.

[Unnamed Guest]

Can absolutely. And blame yourself. I have fucked up so many times, it's ridiculous. And you know what? When I go, oh, I'm gonna own that one, I feel a lot better. So what? I fucked up. Who doesn't?

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And this is kind of like my RAM program that I talk about. RAM is my acronym for realization, accountability, Motivation, and self Renewal. Realize who you are, Realize your strengths. Realize your weaknesses.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Well, collectively. I didn't mean to interrupt, but collectively, it's that apathy in the face. Cause it goes two ways with this. Sort of like, you know, you are your own leader. You're the one who takes emotional responsibility. But I think a lot of people, you know, in terms of whatever their place in life is, or their sense of entitlement or their class or their status in the world, I mean, personal responsibility to them, you know, become selfish. So what you're talking about is there has to be some sort of rising up from within in a righteous way. And then you kind of try to get other people to see what you see.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right. And you have to give them the space to see it for themselves.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And they will. But, you know, for me. See you again. Everything in my life is looking at nature.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

It taught me everything. And if you really do. If. Let's talk about the RAM for a minute. Their courage, their strength. Where do they get that from? They know themselves as the ram. They know their terrain. They know what they're capable of.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Well, they don't ask themselves many questions.

[Unnamed Guest]

I sure think.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Don't.

[Unnamed Guest]

But you know what I'm talking about in here and how we envision that. But to just realize the strengths that you have and accept the strengths that you don't have, and it's in that acceptance that you find empowerment.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah. And also there's the. There has to be the realization that there's nothing and there's nothing more important than this. Like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Because nobody else is going to come in and do something.

[Aaron Brockovich]

But not only. But. Right. But. But. But also just as a species, that at some point, you know, you're gonna have to pull away from the. The kind of churn of. Of making yourself feel better through consumerism or whatever, or distracting yourself to sort of realize, like, well, our survival is at stake in the face of sort of inhuman corporate interests and arcane or ancient infrastructure.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yes.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

I think of the caterpillar. And again, I will always go back to nature.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

To nature. In order for a caterpillar to morph into a butterfly.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

It has to dissect itself first.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Okay.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I think about that and I channel these things in a good way to help find my strength. For every moment in my life that I thought, I'm a dyslexic, I was judged and labeled, perceived. You're stupid. You need special ed and all of that, I had to turn that inward. And oftentimes we're afraid to do that.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And like I said, I fucked up so many times it's ridiculous. But I'm like, I'm better when I own it, and then I can work through that. And I just think that there's this.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Massive moment of self realization.

[Unnamed Guest]

Absolutely. Become. Think about this. We're a species floating on a blue ball in space. There's gonna be these things we can't control. But what you can control is how you feel, how you see, how you think, your observations. And that is what has saved me. And this is a lot of the work that even I do in these communities, there becomes this moment of self realization.

[Aaron Brockovich]

I just hope that it can happen in a spark in light of this brain mangling technology that's thrown everybody into conspiratorial thinking. And there's a lot of broken brains out there because of misinformation. Now, let's just talk for a minute about right now. We've talked a little bit about it, but in light of the Palisades fire and the Altadena fire, what has to happen?

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, well, you have. We have to give these people. Nobody's even had a chance to breathe yet.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Of course.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, nobody's had a chance to breathe yet.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Literally.

[Unnamed Guest]

No, we're not even out of this yet. I mean, it's still smoldering. It's a process. And again, going back to Hinckley, that I learned that we need to respect that of them. And they're gonna have to process this in their own time.

[Aaron Brockovich]

The PTSD and the sort of grief.

[Unnamed Guest]

Absolutely.

[Aaron Brockovich]

You know, figuring out just on a personal level what they have to do with their families and housing.

[Unnamed Guest]

It's overwhelming. And what we can do at this moment is support. Listen. And again, it's about respecting the space that they need and not pushing on them. They will figure it out. They really will. But this is an important window here. And I think at this moment, it is critically important that our leaders of this state give every bit of support to these communities that they need.

[Aaron Brockovich]

And hopefully the larger government.

[Unnamed Guest]

Absolutely.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah. The federal government.

[Unnamed Guest]

Absolutely. And so it's not. God. See, even this conversation is like, here we go again. It's My way or the highway. It's all or nothing. And we have to kind of change that antiquated process. You just. I think of it so like a computer. So what happens? We all know this fucking computer and the blue dot that spins around and around and around and around. What's it doing?

[Aaron Brockovich]

Thinking.

[Unnamed Guest]

Thinking. And it's trying to process 10 billion data sets coming in at once. Well, that's kind of what's happening right now. And so everyone's gonna be spinning because they're trying to process all that information. If you don't give it that time to do it, what happens? It shuts down. It shuts down.

[Aaron Brockovich]

You gotta reboot it.

[Unnamed Guest]

You got. You just said it. And that's what I was gonna say. We have let them reboot. Let them reboot. And they will. And they'll come up stronger.

[Aaron Brockovich]

And then it starts at the. Once people start pulling out of the explosion of trauma, then you start to deal with practical things. What was the water issue? What was the power issue?

[Unnamed Guest]

What was going back to the sources, right?

[Aaron Brockovich]

And then bring the community together, town halls, standing in front of committees of representatives and. And screaming.

[Unnamed Guest]

It's true. And you know, it's counterintuitive, Mark, in a crisis like this, to step out of it, step out.

[Aaron Brockovich]

But you need to do that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Reboot, step back, see it. You know, I think a lot about even, you know, and I've really enjoyed Mel Robbins new book. You know, the other side, let them. You. If the other side's gonna do what they're gonna. Whoever that is in your life is gonna do what they're gonna do, they're gonna do it. What you need to do here, what I've learned, step out of the chaos. Reboot. Really stop and breathe and take it in what's happened. And through that process, they'll begin a slow reboot. And we are so busy. We are so worried about the future, we're so angry about the past that we have completely forgotten to be present and as painful it is to be present in this moment and feel every bit of vulnerability and anger and everything, and then step out of it and allow yourself, give yourself permission, and you'll start a reboot. So I feel like we, as a.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Personal one, a community, one correct. Political one. Whatever needs to happen. Correct.

[Unnamed Guest]

But see, and we're all gonna move very fast. We're gonna create this funnel. We gotta do it right now. It's gonna unfold. But the first step, honestly, the way I've learned to help people, that's even helped Myself. And that's all I want to try to do because we're all in this together. What you need to do, step out, reboot, visualize what you need to be a ram, a gladiator or whatever. But start that process. And you won't start the process till we take. And step back. You know, Mark, I even wonder where we're at. Do you stop to check, are we breathing? And.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Well, everyone's got these watches now. You can just look on your phone.

[Unnamed Guest]

I know, right? I'm breathing, but I've just seen in too many disasters, this process will. Will happen and it will unfold and.

[Aaron Brockovich]

And so. But it's sort of amazing that you're not. You also have to figure out how. And this is just a matter of how any individual is wired not to be fatalistic. And you seem to be like, proactive immediately, mentally to kind of just, you know, forge forward and continue to fight the fight. And, you know, that, you know, that's a tall order for a lot of people.

[Unnamed Guest]

You know, it used to be for me, too, until I just accepted, oh, I come in hot and all kinds of fucking messed up and own it and accept it. And it's just interesting in that phenomenon, you start to accept yourself.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

You start to find your own self worth. You start to realize all these things that everybody else labeled you to be is falling away and you're finding out who you really are.

[Aaron Brockovich]

And thank God for firefighters.

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, my Lord.

[Aaron Brockovich]

I was thinking about the other. I was thinking about the other day because so many people, you know, they. They don't want to do certain jobs or they don't want. But, you know, thank God there are these people that. That is what they live for. Do you know, like, there's like, community service and helping people is one thing, but these people like to fight fires.

[Unnamed Guest]

It's their calling.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

I don't understand half the time why I'm doing what I'm doing. It's calling.

[Marc Maron]

Thank God.

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, thank God.

[Marc Maron]

Thank God.

[Aaron Brockovich]

If that was like some other kind of like, civic service where people were like, what's the point? You know, like, you know, or they were jaded or like, it's just like, it was amazing to me the other day that there is a breed of person that that is what they live to do.

[Unnamed Guest]

Absolutely.

[Aaron Brockovich]

And thank. Thank God.

[Unnamed Guest]

And these very interesting moments of that breed of person is within you, but it, again, it isn't until that moment, those firemen know who they are.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Oftentimes we don't know who we are.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

You know, my mom was a huge influence in my life. She taught me the power of stick to itiveness. And its definition is a propensity to follow through in a determined manner. Dogged persistence born of obligation and stubbornness. Every one of us is that. And when I get backed up into that moment, I become the little engine that could. I think I can. I think I can. I know I can. I know I can. It's all about how you think and perceive yourself. And my mom taught me, listen, Aaron, it's everyone else's choice to perceive you as a loser because of your dyslexia. But I want you to remember one thing that doesn't have to be your choice of how you see and perceive yourself.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Right?

[Unnamed Guest]

And we all are insulted every day with tags and labels. I spend most of my day think of a pack of fucking post it notes sticking all over me of everybody else's idea of who I am. I start ripping them off. Well, fuck you and fuck this and fuck that. Can I say that? You know wtf, right?

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah, you can, sure. Wtf, but they're also, I guess the other component is, alongside with self realization is you have to engage your empathy because, you know, it's not natural. It's not a natural thing for I think more people than people realize that empathy, you know, has to be, you know, nurtured and you have to have a vigilance around it.

[Unnamed Guest]

No. And I'm an empath and I don't say that in some glorious way because it's really painful. I have to. The agony that all of us are feeling for everyone in Pacific Palisades and Altadena. I've done nothing but cry for a week. We want to stop that because it hurts.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Right?

[Unnamed Guest]

You need to feel the hurt and to find that empathy and then we can move on.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah. The empathy combined with that self realization you're talking about seems to be, you know, the kind of community engine, personal engine, you know, the political engine that has to, you know, we have to find that as a country as well. Being that we're so divided, this realization that we are really all in this together and we're all vulnerable.

[Unnamed Guest]

We are. And you know, we're so afraid of failure and we're so afraid of that.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Vulnerability or being, you know, bulldozed.

[Unnamed Guest]

But you owning that fear and vulnerability when you do will turn in to empowerment.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yes, I believe you. And I'm hoping that what you're talking about takes off like a wildfire.

[Unnamed Guest]

I do too. And I think we're here. Yeah, I think we're here. And, you know, I wrote Superman's not coming in 2020 because I couldn't figure out what is a way that I can really help them. You know, lawsuits are always gonna happen. That isn't always the answer. You're not giving everything back to them.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Just because it can take forever.

[Unnamed Guest]

Absolutely. So it is everything that we've been talking about and is creating your own Superman, and it begins with you, and it begins at a local level. And we cannot continue to think or assume somebody else is coming in to save us.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah. Yeah. There's no one coming to help.

[Unnamed Guest]

No. And it. We. You know what? It's a hard. It.

[Aaron Brockovich]

It's horrible.

[Unnamed Guest]

It's horrible because we've been asked to believe that.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Where's my mommy? Where's my daddy?

[Unnamed Guest]

But we're here.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And we're here, and we're ready to be here for as shitty as the things that we're seeing happening, we're here.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Okay.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I see. We evolve. We're a species. We're a planet.

[Aaron Brockovich]

We better.

[Unnamed Guest]

There's expansion. And we either find that within ourselves, we perish or we get left behind.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Yes. And on that note, Gladiator. It was great talking to you. It was very helpful.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, thank you for having me. You know, earlier we just started talking. I thought we were just chatting, and then I realized I'm like, oh, my gosh, it's happening. It's happening. That was very, very good of you, Marc. So. And now I'm going to look back and go, oh, my God. What did I say? Listen, I've had 30 years of experience doing this with communities, and everything that you and I talked about, I have put into practice. I have seen it work. I've seen how we can change, how we can transform. And I believe that at the very core of who I am and that every one of us is that. Is that. And we can find it.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Well, I'm gonna.

[Unnamed Guest]

I'm here to support you through it.

[Aaron Brockovich]

I'm gonna. Well, thank you. Because now, like, you know, I'm. I'm sort of invigorated out of my. My. My dread and despair and, you know, and I'll. And I'll think about what we talked about. Thanks for coming.

[Unnamed Guest]

Thanks, Mark.

[Marc Maron]

There you go. You wanna. You wanna get. You wanna get involved? Get involved again. Aaron's newsletter is called the Brockovich Report. It's on substack. Hang out for a minute. Hey, people. The Oscar nominations were announced last week, and if you go back through our shows from the past year, you can hear several of the nominees talking about their films. Cynthia Erivo, Adrien Brody, Jesse Eisenberg, Clarence Macklin, and Sebastian Stanley, who was on episode 1580 talking about the Apprentice.

[Unnamed Guest]

There has to be enough recognizability of the guy, but then if you're like 10 to the right, almost too much, then, then you lose the audience, or if you're too under, then they don't recognize the guy. So it was, it was always a balance. And of course, you know, I went into this with everybody saying, you're making a mistake. You're alienating half the country. I mean, these are people in, in Hollywood that are telling me this, that.

[Marc Maron]

Like, are in terms of taking the.

[Unnamed Guest]

Role, taking the role, casting director saying, don't you know why we need another Trump movie? This is going to be a disaster. You don't look like him. All this stuff. And, and so it was a, it was an interesting mental exercise to kind of not deal with that. But in a way, a lot of what I was dealing with seemed fitting towards maybe what he seems to be.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Dealing with in terms of sense of.

[Unnamed Guest]

Self, in terms of what probably I, I feel like there's a lot going on in that head, actually. Yes, I think there's a lot going on in that head of his. You know, a lot more than maybe he admits or he puts forward. Yeah, but I think there's. And, and so any, any internal struggle that I was having going into this was, was probably going to work for me. Anyway.

[Marc Maron]

To get every episode of WTF ad free, sign up for WTF plus, just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by acast. And here's some guitar. Like I play what I play.

[Aaron Brockovich]

Boomer.

[Marc Maron]

Lives Monkey and La Fonda Cat Angels everywhere.