Episode 1618 - Brady Corbet

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron Podcast: Episode 1618 - Brady Corbet

Release Date: February 17, 2025

In Episode 1618 of the WTF with Marc Maron Podcast, host Marc Maron engages in an in-depth conversation with acclaimed filmmaker Brady Corbet. Known for directing the critically acclaimed films Vox Lux and The Childhood of a Leader, Corbet brings his nuanced perspective on filmmaking, the challenges of promoting independent films, and the current state of the film industry.

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1. Introduction to Brady Corbet

Maron introduces Corbet as a "real fucking artist," highlighting his nominations for Best Director, Best Original Screenplay, and Best Picture at the Academy Awards for his latest work, The Brutalist. Corbet’s dedication to authentic and thought-provoking cinema is emphasized, setting the stage for a conversation that delves deep into his creative process and industry experiences.

Notable Quote:

Maron [02:20]: "This guy is a real fucking artist. And real fucking artists are hard to come by."

2. The Brutalist: Themes and Production

Corbet discusses The Brutalist, detailing its exploration of post-war architecture and the complexities of the male ego in the mid-20th century. The film is described as an epic independent project that blends historical context with personal drama, showcasing Corbet’s commitment to storytelling that bridges past and present societal issues.

Notable Quote:

Corbet [24:55]: "It's just something which is bigger than one minority. It is something which is, you know, acknowledging all minorities and, and certainly all artists."

3. Challenges in Promoting Independent Films

The conversation shifts to the arduous task of promoting an independent film in today’s fragmented media landscape. Corbet shares his frustration with the current publicity model, where extensive interviews and constant travel can drain personal resources and time without guaranteeing meaningful engagement or success.

Notable Quote:

Corbet [19:20]: "I've spoken to many filmmakers... that have films that are nominated this year that can't pay their rent."

4. The Impact of Capitalism on Filmmaking

Corbet expresses his critical views on the capitalist structures within Hollywood, arguing that the system often undermines creative integrity for commercial gain. He emphasizes the importance of directors having final cut to preserve the artistic vision, highlighting the tension between artistic freedom and executive control.

Notable Quote:

Corbet [51:08]: "I really believe that it's important that Final Cut tie break goes into directors, deals as something which is standard and precedential."

5. Reflections on the Creative Process and Personal Sacrifices

Delving deeper, Corbet reflects on the personal toll that filmmaking takes, discussing the years dedicated to a single project and the impact on his personal life, especially his relationship with his daughter. Despite the commercial success of The Brutalist, he questions the worth of the personal sacrifices made during its creation.

Notable Quote:

Corbet [80:38]: "I do really wonder, like, my daughter's 10 and a half years old, and I missed out on a lot in the last few years to make the film."

6. Future Projects and Continued Passion for Cinema

Looking ahead, Corbet shares his excitement for upcoming projects, indicating a shift in his creative focus while maintaining his passion for immersive and meaningful storytelling. He hints at a new film spanning 150 years, exploring American mysticism and cultural shifts.

Notable Quote:

Corbet [84:53]: "I do. And I've been working on it for a long time, and. And I'm. And I'm excited about it, so I feel really like I'm just. I'm excited to do something very different."

7. Views on Modern Entertainment and Cultural Discourse

Both Maron and Corbet critique the superficiality and conformity in contemporary media and entertainment. They argue that the saturation of easily digestible content lacks the depth and authenticity of earlier artistic endeavors, emphasizing the need for genuine cultural discourse and creative risk-taking.

Notable Quote:

Corbet [30:28]: "I think that in all seriousness, first of all, there's an accumulation of so many that I wouldn't know where to begin."

8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with Maron urging listeners to watch The Brutalist and praising Corbet’s unwavering dedication to his craft. Corbet expresses gratitude for the conversation, underscoring his commitment to creating impactful cinema despite the industry's challenges.

Notable Quote:

Maron [83:17]: "You are a worshiper in the cathedral of cinema."

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Key Takeaways

• Brady Corbet emphasizes the importance of creative control in filmmaking, advocating for directors to have final cut to preserve their artistic vision.

• The promotion of independent films is fraught with challenges, including extensive travel and interviews that may not yield substantial benefits.

• Corbet critiques the capitalist nature of Hollywood, arguing that it often compromises artistic integrity for commercial interests.

• The personal sacrifices made for creating meaningful art are significant, affecting personal relationships and time.

• Corbet remains passionate about creating immersive and impactful cinema, with future projects aimed at exploring deep cultural and historical themes.

• Both host and guest call for a shift away from superficial media towards genuine cultural discourse and authentic storytelling.

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Additional Information

The Brutalist is currently nominated for multiple Academy Awards and remains in theaters. Marc Maron encourages listeners to support the film and stay engaged with Corbet’s work.

For more details on Brady Corbet's tour dates and upcoming projects, visit wtfpod.com/tour.

Transcript

[Mark Maron]

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[Brady Courbet]

Lock the gate.

[Mark Maron]

All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the buddies? What the nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. How's everyone doing, huh? Yeah, I know. I know. I. I know. Believe me, I know. Well, it's good to talk to you. Things have been. Yeah, I get it. Believe me, I get it. But I've been out there. I've been out in the world. I've been out doing the thing. I've been out in the Midwest doing the shows. But, no, tell me, how are you? You okay? You holding up all right? You getting through each day? Are you managing your mind? Are you managing your mind? Is everything okay up there? Huh? Are you. Is it okay? Just use whatever options you have at your disposal to maintain your sanity without hurting yourself or others. That's a famous quote by me. I do hope you're okay today. We got a great show, great conversation. Brady Courbet is on the show. He's the director of the Brutalist, which is a fucking swaggering bit of filmmaking. I mean, it's a big movie, man, and he's a young guy, and he's nominated for Best Director, Best Original Screenplay and Best Picture at the Academy Awards. He's also the director of Vox Lux and the Childhood of a Leader. This guy's a real fucking artist. And real fucking artists are hard to come by. There just aren't that many. There are people that do things, and there are people that do things professionally, and there are people that do artists, but real fucking artists. There's not a lot of them, and this guy's one of them. And I wasn't. I didn't know. I didn't know going in if he was one of them or not. But it turns out, yep, real deal. The movie's fucking amazing. I mean, it's kind of daunting and brain bending. Look, I am in Asheville, North Carolina, at the Orange peel this Thursday, February 20th. Nashville, Tennessee, at the James K. Polk theater this Friday, February 21st. Louisville, Kentucky, at the Bomhard Theatre, Saturday, February 22nd. And Lexington, Kentucky, at the Lexington Opera house on Sunday, February 23rd. In March, I'll be in Oklahoma City at the Tower theater on Thursday, March 6. Dallas at the Majestic Theater, Friday, March 7. Houston at the White Oak Music Hall, Saturday, March 8, and San Antonio at the Empire Theater on Sunday, March 9. Before I head to south by Southwest that week, I could use some help there in San Antonio at the Empire Theater. You better buy some tickets or I might go to south by Southwest early. That's not a threat, but if you live around there, go, because I don't want to be fucking sad. You can go to wtfpod.com tour for all my dates and links to tickets. All right, good. Holy shit. I'll tell you one thing, I'm glad I have the driving chops to navigate snow. Thank God I lived in New York and in Boston during massive snowstorms because those skills come right back to you. It's like riding a fucking bike. And they've come in pretty handy these last couple of trips. I mean, look, I don't mind the cold weather. I really don't. I like. I like. I like. I'm excited to wear layers. And I like my big parka with my fur around the hood that I got from. From Joe Swanberg for doing easy. I mean, I like. I just. I just. I like snow and I like winter, and I like cold air. I mean, I like it for a day or two. But let me tell you something, it was really fucking cold. I mean, really cold. Lara bites. And I flew into Cedar Rapids last Wednesday, and I didn't even Know if we'd make it. There's so much panic involved in traveling in the winter. So we land in Cedar Rapids. It seems like there's, like, three feet of snow on the ground. I know I'm exaggerating. And it's a small airport, and we walk out to the spot where our rental car is, and the thing is buried in snow. And right when I walked out, my hands started to hurt from cold. It was fucking crazy. And again, I'm not complaining. I've been through it before, but it seemed a little intense. It felt like I could maybe lose a finger. If I waited, like, 15 minutes, I might lose a hand. I mean, it was that. It was that fucking cold. I couldn't find the little scraper thing. So I'm trying to. We're trying to get the car out. It was a very exciting beginning of a. Of a Midwest journey. But, you know, thank God. I mean, I do have big dumb gloves as well. So I dug my big dumb gloves out, and I was wearing my big dumb parka. But I was warm, and it was fun. It was fun to. To play in the snow. I know, like, if you live in that, you're probably like, shut the up. But for me, it was kind of exciting. And I'd been to Iowa City a few times before, but sometimes, like, I just don't remember places until I get there. And I don't know if I ever noticed before this trip just how slow time goes by in the Midwest. Maybe not all the Midwest, but maybe just Iowa. Now, this is not a criticism, all right? I mean, I know it can sound like a criticism because I come from a big city, but there are two sides to it. I mean, look, if you want to get the most out of life, and at the top of that list is time. Like, you want time to just seem like it just kind of oozes by, then Iowa might be the place for you. I mean, I had moments where I'd look at my watch, thinking an hour went by, but it was like, 15 minutes. I honestly think that's like, getting the most out of life on a basic level is if you can get through a half a day and feel like, holy shit, has it been a week? I mean, that's if you're enjoying it. That's if you take in the Zen to it. You know, it just kind of plods by. It's kind of Zen, I think, in a way. Hey, folks, I know meal kits often sound like the solution for all your meal prep troubles, but a lot of times you get a meal kit and it's not the quick recipe you thought it would be. A lot of them are complicated and overlong. So that's why I'm recommending Home Chef. It's a way for you to enjoy home cooked meals that are delivered to your door, but it also respects your time. Home Chef provides fresh ingredients and Chef designed recipes to simplify your cooking experience. Users of leading meal kits have rated Home Chef number one in quality, convenience, value, taste and recipe ease. My Home Chef kit came with a Cuban style avocado and quinoa bowl and another with one pot butternut squash chowder. But you'll have more than 30 options each week and they'll fit any dietary need. For a limited time, Home chef is offering WTF listeners 18 free meals plus free dessert for life and of course, free shipping on your first box. Go to homechef.com WTF that's homechef.com WTF for 18 free meals and free dessert for life. You heard that right, folks. Home chef.com WTF and you must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. You hear me? Do you want the free dessert? You got to be an active subscriber. The show in in Iowa City was fucking great. Good people came out. Nice bunch, probably 700 and change my people. And as you know, I've been talking about it, I've been a little nervous about going to the red states during this transition to a competitive authoritarian government and the seemingly conditional cultural free speech situation that we're experiencing. But the truth is that there are large communities of like minded or roughly me minded people anywhere I go in this country. And I gotta be honest with you, right now there's a depth to it in the way that, you know, people get isolated. And certainly people that think a certain way in this particular climate are alone or festering by themselves. And just the fact that several hundred of them can come out and laugh at the horror is a powerful thing. I feel like I'm providing a service in a way, but I'm just doing comedy and it's kind of cathartic to do it in this environment. I'm not happy about that, but nonetheless it is necessary and I feel like it's a good thing. And the truth is I'm not fundamentally a political comic, but I am a comic that talks about what is happening, what is happening in the world from my point of view. What's happening in this country from my point of view, because we are living in it. I can't just get up on stage and not address that. It's just not what I do. I can't get on stage and just be like, here are the jokes. You know, we're living through something awful that may never go away, and I can't ignore it. So I talk about shit. I just talk about how I see it. I do that for maybe the first 15 minutes when I'm on stage. I address the fact that there are probably Trump supporters in the audience, but I sort of qualify that by saying, you know, they didn't come here on purpose. They didn't come here on their own. You brought them, you married them. That's on you. That gets a laugh usually. But the shows were great. The Des Moines show was awesome. People are appreciative. The. My crowds, they just need the relief, folks. And if you're of them and you need the relief, I think I can. I can give you a little bit just to be in the room with a bunch of us having some laughs. Kansas City, Missouri, was good as well. Big theater. What a beautiful place that Midland Theater is. And that was great, too. I mean, they were just. Lara Bites did great. It was just. I don't know, man. I like being out there. I like being around people. I like being out in the world. Going out to eat, doing comedy, walking around. It was funny. A guy came up to me after the Kansas City show, and he said, I'm one of the Trump guys here. And he seemed pleasant enough, like a nice enough guy. And I asked him, I said, well, did I get it right? Did I get it right? Did it make sense? And he goes, yeah, he's crazy. And I'm not completely sure I understand why he was so excited about that. Like, the. The tone of it, like, it's just a. Like a. Kind of a fun thing, like a. A good time. And I think that's like a bunch of his supporters. I just. I don't quite get that one, you know, not the one that are necessarily ideological about it or. Or maybe I'm projecting or. Or single issue, just guys that are like, yeah, I just kind of like the guy, you know, just ones that enjoy the mentally ill, cruel presidential spectacle. I don't quite get it. I mean, I get that life is slower in the Midwest, but I guess I wish there were other options for satisfying entertainment other than watching the country burn on your cell phone or specific streaming channels. I mean, I just. I wish there was more to it that was lighting up life other than dismantling the entire history of this country. But, hey, I mean, you know, wrestling is wrestling. With Robinhood Gold, you can now enjoy the VIP treatment receiving a 3% IRA match on retirement contributions. The privileges of the very privileged are no longer exclusive. With Robinhood gold, your annual IRA contributions are boosted by 3%. But plus you also get 4% APY on your cash in non retirement accounts. That's over eight times the national savings average. The perks of the high net worth are now available for any net worth. The new gold standard is here with Robinhood Gold. To receive your 3% boost on annual IRA contributions, sign [e-mail] Gold investing involves risk rates subject to change. 3% match requires Robinhood Gold at $5 per month for one year from first match. Must keep funds in IRA for five years. Go to Robinhood.com Boost over eight times the national average savings account interest rate claim is based on data from the FDIC as of November 18, 2024. Robinhood Financial LLC Member SIPC Gold membership is offered by Robinhood Gold LLC. So I'm about to share my conversation with Brady Courbet with you. And I have to say before we. I go into it, that. That movie, and it's doing pretty well, you know, it's. It. And it's a. It's really an independent movie that looks like an epic movie. And just the scope of it, the thought that went into shooting it, into writing it, into the. You know, the kind of. The vision of it, the concepts. It's like the shots themselves. The film stock he used. It's just. You don't see movies like that anymore. And it's a long movie and it's got three sections and there's a fucking intermission. And it's about a guy. I mean, it's a big story about a guy. But there wasn't a point during it that I was bored or I drifted or anything. I just. I was locked in. I needed the intermission, though. The intermission was nice. Take a little breather, a little music played, maybe go to the bathroom. But the movie is stunning. And I also did. I went and watched one of his other movies, Vox Lux. But I mean, it's all his vision and he gets it done. And he's not playing within the studio system, whatever's left of that. He makes sure he has full creative control. And it's real interesting movies, you know, done at a very high level. It's very impressive. And I really didn't know what to expect from talking to him. But you can hear right now again, the brutalist is playing in Theaters now. It's nominated for 10 Academy Awards. And this is me talking to the director Brady Courbet. So your house burned down seven years ago?

[Brady Courbet]

That's correct.

[Mark Maron]

Where was that?

[Brady Courbet]

In the Village. It was on Waverly and Charles.

[Mark Maron]

What, in New York? I thought we were gonna have a LA story here.

[Brady Courbet]

No, it's a New York story. No, it's a New York story. The fire department told me, you know, never, never move above a laundromat or a pizza place. And I was like, that's the entire fucking city.

[Mark Maron]

Where else am I gonna live? So what happened? What caused it?

[Brady Courbet]

It was a laundromat fire. Piece of lint caught on fire during the night. My wife and I were a few blocks away, and my mother and daughter, they got out immediately. So they were fine. The fire department put the fire out. They actually even said, like, hey, if you don't have a place to go, you can sleep here tonight.

[Mark Maron]

At the house.

[Brady Courbet]

At the house. And it was like, covered in, like, you know, soot and hose water.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

December. So it was freezing.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

And I said, no, no, I think we're not gonna. We're not gonna stay here.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

And I. But I went in, I got our passports and a couple of things, and then at 6am My mother called me and was like, Turn on New York 1.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

And there you were like, well, no, the bill had reignited and.

[Mark Maron]

Oh, my God.

[Brady Courbet]

Of the night. And so you dodged death. Yeah, we. We definitely at least dodged, like, having a. Like a very stressful evening. Yeah, like having a more stressful evening.

[Mark Maron]

Well, that's lucky, man. All right, so tell me about this. I think it's interesting if you want to talk about it before we. Whatever unfolds here, but. So, you know, in the kitchen there, you mentioned that you had to shoot this commercial.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, I just directed three advertisements in Portugal, but pre production was in the uk. Yeah, it's the first time that I had made any money really in years because both my partner and I made $0 on. On the last two films that we made.

[Mark Maron]

Zero.

[Brady Courbet]

Yes, actually, zero. So we. We had to just sort of live off of a paycheck from three years ago. And obviously the timing during an awards campaign and having to travel every two or three days was less than ideal, but it sort of was an opportunity to land in my lap and I jumped at it.

[Mark Maron]

Well, I guess for me as an outsider, but I understand the business to a certain degree that the idea that you have this. This film, that's amazing. And it's nominated for these awards and yet you don't have any money.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. I've spoken to many filmmakers, you know, like, that have films that are nominated this year that can't pay their rent. I mean, that's a real thing. Yeah, it's a. I mean, you're not paid to be promoting a film. And you know, like if you look at certain films that premiered in Cannes, you know, that was almost a year ago. So like, I mean, do you got to work?

[Mark Maron]

Right.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, like imagine like just like, I mean our film premiered in September. So I've been doing this for six months.

[Mark Maron]

Right.

[Brady Courbet]

And had zero income because I don't have any time to work. Like, I, I can't even take a writing job at the moment.

[Mark Maron]

Right. Because anything you're going to do is going to take months.

[Brady Courbet]

Correct.

[Mark Maron]

And you know, you gotta lock in. So that would make it harder to do this.

[Brady Courbet]

Well, it's also, I mean, it's, it the. What's. So what's so crazy about, about promoting a film to this, you know? Yeah, because it's extend. I mean, because it's, it's opening internationally at the same time that it's opening domestically. So that means that you're doing Japanese press, Swiss press, you know, I mean, look, everything all at once, right. And it's seven days a week. It's boundless. Like there's no, it's travel, it's constant travel and it's. And it's. But, but you're also working Saturdays and Sundays. Like I haven't had, I haven't had a day off since, since the Christmas break.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

And that was also only four days.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah. I talked to Mangold the other day and he, he had just, he just gotten in, he was in Tokyo the night before.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, that, that sounds about right.

[Mark Maron]

It's crazy because you can't, like. And I imagine it's something easier about locking into some pattern of discussion because you can't like, you know, it's not like you're going to be your mentally best self every time.

[Brady Courbet]

No, I mean, no, no. I mean it's, it's, that's what's so crazy about this entire process is that you look your worst and you feel your worst and you are, you know, depending on the themes of your film. Like you're usually talking about some of the most complex issues of our era.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, right.

[Brady Courbet]

You know, like, it's really not ideal. Like it's like a six month interrogation.

[Mark Maron]

It's a very strange thing, I think in terms of how it's all approached now and the expectations of the artist because, I mean, there was a time where there was what, three or four outlets that really did you justice. And those outlets had attention from the people that give a shit. And now none of those exist and it's just this, like, shotgun effect. You're gonna go say roughly the same thing to 100 people and hopefully something connects.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. And also, you know, it's hard to imagine that, like, I don't personally have a sense that any of these conversations go anywhere. Go anywhere.

[Mark Maron]

No, I know.

[Brady Courbet]

It's a really weird thing. Like, you know, I. I completed like 90 interviews last week, right, On a.

[Mark Maron]

Junket where you're sitting in one place, right, and they tell you.

[Brady Courbet]

And on the one hand, I'm not looking for them, so maybe that's why I'm not finding them. But it seems like if you do that much that you would just come across it.

[Mark Maron]

No, when I promote anything, like if I'm in a movie or something, and you do these things where it's like, it's going to be two days and you're going to sit in front, there's a million things to do, and they give you the list of outlets and you're like, what the fuck? Where is this? What is it?

[Brady Courbet]

That's right.

[Mark Maron]

Well, that's one of the interesting things about where publicity is at is that all these people are scrambling. And it seems that the most effective form of publicity, if you have the wherewithal, is self publicity on whatever fucking platform you're involved with. But I don't know many directors that do that.

[Brady Courbet]

That's right. Yeah, of course. Well, I mean, the other thing is that especially for me, I know what it means to be in front of a camera. Well, yeah, I did it for years and I resigned. So it is kind of. It's kind of a strange thing, but it's.

[Mark Maron]

You know, I watched like, I saw the Brutalist over at the Los Feliz. So I saw it the way it was supposed to be seen, and I watched Vox Lux last night and I've seen, you know, some of the stuff you've been in. But, like, where does. You know, the thing about the Brutalist? For me, as somebody who's. I don't think I'm as much as a film obsessive as you are, but it's one of those movies where you, like, you know, where it's. It's like I told. I told my producer, I said, this movie's got a huge. Yeah, sure, but. Sure, but the Scope of it to sort of make decisions at that. That large about a personal story and to have, like, the impact. The only film I can compare it to usually is There Will Be Blood.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny that you say that the film has a huge cock because it's kind of an investigation of precisely that. I mean, the male. The male ego in the mid century was certainly one of the film's themes. I mean, the characters were very much written to their circumstance, which is to say that it was predominantly Central European Jewish architects that were building these buildings, but they were also predominantly male. And I was like, well, who really needs another film about a male artist who tortured genius? And my partner and I just. There was no way around it. This is just who the character. This was their gender. They definitely would be a man of a certain age, et cetera, et cetera. And so we tried to offset that to the very best of our ability because of the fact that our feeling was that this character's legacy is not his body of work, but ultimately his family. So it opens and concludes with shots of his niece that he has sort of paved the way for. But it's also part of the vicious cycle of history. And, like, will her life be better or worse? It's hard to say.

[Mark Maron]

Or unimpacted, other than some sort of trust or seat on a board of some kind.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, sure.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah.

[Mark Maron]

But. Yeah, but I think the cock element is important because the relationship between a philanthropist who, you know, supports the arts for whatever reason, and the artist. I mean, those are the two male egos you're dealing with. Right.

[Brady Courbet]

Of course.

[Mark Maron]

And. And that them coming up against each other is. Is kind of. It was. It was fascinating. And, you know, the size of the movie, given the. This. This. The notion of the story. I don't know how you created that intimacy, but I do, you know, in terms of the characters in something that big. But I saw it in. In Vox lx, too. You must. I don't know who's your cinematographer, but there's something about how big it is, but yet how visceral and kind of intimate it is. I don't know how you get that.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, I think it's actually just like. Comes from the screenplays. And I think what it is specifically is that I like to either see someone play their guitar until their fingers bleed or play their sax until their lungs explode, or I also. You know, four bars of silence. And it's an interesting thing where, like, everything in between. I'm not particularly interested in and, like, if I reach for an album, I mean, literally, like, what my ear yearns for is, it's William Basinski or, you know, it's. Or Nick Coleman. I mean, there's nothing really in between.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, no, I get that. And, like. Well, the choice to, you know, find and use Scott Walker for Vox Lux, that's kind of interesting. I mean, it must have been the last thing that guy did.

[Brady Courbet]

It is. It was the last. The last piece of music that he. That he. Well, published, I would say, because he actually was working on an album at the time.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah. How'd you get hip to him?

[Brady Courbet]

He was my hero.

[Mark Maron]

Really.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. Growing up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I loved Scott's records, and I had this sort of obsession with a record called tilt from the mid-90s and that, you know, I went backwards with him. Like, I had. No. As an American, even though Scott was American, you know, he lived in the UK since 1978, and he never left. He never left the country. Smart. And, yeah, I mean, he did drop dead right after Brexit. So, yeah, I think we know how he. We know how he felt about it.

[Mark Maron]

I remember when Leonard Cohen died, just before that first Trump term, or right at the beginning of it, and I was like, oh, he. You know, he got out, you know, right in time. Yeah, of course.

[Brady Courbet]

That sounds about right.

[Mark Maron]

People are like, you asshole. He had so much more in him. I'm like, yeah, maybe.

[Brady Courbet]

But Scott. But Scott was. Scott was funny because, of course, you know, especially for people that grew up in the uk, yeah, they knew him from his boy band, you know, and they were the Walker Brothers. You know, they, they, they. None of them were called Walker and none of them were brothers, so they were really assembled, you know, by the label.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

It just so happened that a handful of them were extremely brilliant, including Scott isn't.

[Mark Maron]

It's wild, right? And.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, and if you listen to the albums, what's interesting is that even the poppiest of pop songs, there's always some dissonance, there's always some discord, there's some strange atonal sustain. And I think he. What was so kind of amazing about his albums, especially when he was working for major labels, is he found a way to do what he does or what he did inside of that system. Because, of course, an executive at that time especially, would never be able to really call out the fact that there's an atonal sustain. It's very. It's specific.

[Mark Maron]

They're looking for the hook.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. And the hooks were there. But what's funny is that he was quite ashamed, in a way, of a lot of the early work. I mean, that was something like he wasn't proud of the Walker Brothers.

[Mark Maron]

Couldn't accept records, couldn't accept it as evolution. It was just something that. Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

I mean, he's a perfectionist. So I think that, like, all of us, you know, we all, you know, I think, you know, I think it's human nature. We all wish that we had a perfect record, but, like, that's not how it works.

[Mark Maron]

Nope. And certainly in. In this particular day and age, you know, your record is very available. It's very available at all times. Well, that's interesting in that. That the idea. The confidence of dissonance, generally speaking, that, you know, that sounded correct to that guy.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

[Mark Maron]

And there's no way that he could have done it any other way, and it was imperative or, you know, he needed to do that. And same with Ornett. I mean, like, if Ornette wasn't confident, people would be like, the fuck is this? But, you know, you believe the guy has intentions.

[Brady Courbet]

But I also. I don't even think that, you know, you believe it. I think that, you know it. I think that you. Listen, there's. There's. It's an organized chaos. And I'm very interested in this specifically. You know, Like, I mean, for me, I always feel that when I'm watching something, you know, in this day and age in particular, everything has been so sanded down. I mean, there's so many cooks in the kitchen that essentially what you end up with is like airplane food. Like, it's built to just, you know.

[Mark Maron]

Kind of look like it's supposed to.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. Like. And it's sustenance. It's just to keep you going another.

[Mark Maron]

Day and satisfy something. But nothing too deep. No, but so how, when you're a kid, you know, how do you. I mean, it's like I know who I am in terms of what brought me up, in terms of input and things I was interested in. But I'm 61, so when you're a kid, what world are you living in to where you get hip to Scott Walker?

[Brady Courbet]

I think that I was an only child, a single mother. And where were you?

[Mark Maron]

In Arizona.

[Brady Courbet]

I was born in Arizona. I was raised in Colorado until I was 12.

[Mark Maron]

I'm from New Mexico. Same. Yes.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. We're both from the Southwest.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

But I also, during that period, because my mother was working a lot, we traveled a lot.

[Mark Maron]

What she do?

[Brady Courbet]

Well, at that time, she was working at a company that was sort of an offshoot of Fannie Mae.

[Mark Maron]

She was insurance.

[Brady Courbet]

Well, she was.

[Mark Maron]

Or no mortgages.

[Brady Courbet]

She was working in the mortgage industry. So she got laid off in 2008 when everyone got laid off, and then she had to sort of start her life over. But, yeah, I mean, how I sort of fell into the film business is a long story. Not a very interesting one. But at that time, in what was, I guess, the early 90s, mid-90s, the way that the casting functioned is that there were these hubs all over the United States for kids. Yeah. Not even just for kids. I mean, it was sort of for, like, you know, whenever they were looking for an unknown actor for a role. And so there were pretty legitimate casting agents that were based in small towns.

[Mark Maron]

Really?

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mark Maron]

Never heard that.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. So I grew up with a lot of child actors, but they were all from this valley between Aspen and Vale. And it's because there was a casting director that was based there that was affiliated with Joanna Ray, the casting director of David Lynch. And Joanna Rae actually cast. Cast me in Funny Games, the Michael Hanukkah film, when I was 17. So it was this kind of strange thing where, like, somebody would be, like, based in, you know, Tallahassee or.

[Mark Maron]

That's crazy. I've never heard that, and I've talked to a thousand people.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, no, it's a really. It's a weird thing. I certainly know a lot of other child actors that come from, like, small, small towns. And the way that it started for me was that I was a cinephile from a really young age.

[Mark Maron]

Who turned you on to that?

[Brady Courbet]

I just was. I was at comic books, like, it was. I didn't have a. I grew up watching Turner Classic Movies. Like, I. And my family loved whodunits. And, like, I think that, you know, so that turns you on to Joseph Losey and Mitch Gaukin.

[Mark Maron]

But it's funny because you say that like, of course, Joseph Lozi, but most people have no sense of that guy's work.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, I definitely. I liked what I liked from a young age. But, you know, by the time I would say I was, you know, 11 or 12 years old, I also was really just. I liked alternative everything.

[Mark Maron]

Exactly. Because, like, there was. It was a world of intelligence that existed outside of our periphery.

[Brady Courbet]

Well, what's interesting for my daughter, my daughter's 10 and a half years old, and I am under the impression that, like, looking for an alternative is not something, you know, which is, like, cool anymore. Yeah. And I think that the pendulum will probably swing back in another direction eventually. But like, the reality is that right now, like, if you ask anyone her age, you know what artist is their favorite artist, they all have the same three or four pop singers that they refer to. Which is strange because when I was growing up, and certainly I know that you being 61 years old, like, when you were growing up, for sure, it was cool to find your own path.

[Mark Maron]

To try to find it.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, like, hey, oh, like, have you heard of the. Like, you haven't heard of this? You know, that was, that was exciting. It gave you a little, A little edge.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, yeah. And you had to find the place. Like, for me, it was a bookstore and there was a record store and there were people that worked at those places.

[Brady Courbet]

Exactly, exactly.

[Mark Maron]

And the guy telling me that you should listen to this and they give you something, you're like, what the fuck is this?

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, absolutely. No, 100%. But I mean, like, you know, I loved Fugazi. I loved, you know, I mean, in terms of the artists of that era and Scott walker in the 90s was the alternative to the alternative.

[Mark Maron]

Right.

[Brady Courbet]

I mean, and so you couldn't at that point go much deeper than that.

[Mark Maron]

Someone had a hip you to it.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. But I don't know who.

[Mark Maron]

Oh, really?

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, I think that in all seriousness, I just think that from reading a lot, listening to a lot, one thing just kind of led me to another.

[Mark Maron]

It's wild that when you, when you look back at that stuff, they kind of built your point of view.

[Brady Courbet]

Oh, 100%. Well, I mean, people constantly asking me, you know, who my influences are. Yeah, but. But the honest to God truth is that first of all, there's an accumulation of so many that I wouldn't know where to begin.

[Mark Maron]

Right.

[Brady Courbet]

And second of all, they're not filmmakers. It's not really the well that you drink from if you're making something because you know better.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, it's. What is it? Music and writers.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, absolutely. And also, I mean, it's in the painters in the production office. It's mostly paintings and photographers on the wall.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

And it's just, you know, I mean, it's an insane thing I do. I've worked with a few filmmakers, I guess in my life.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

That were like referencing a specific scene in a movie or something. But it seems kind of short sighted.

[Mark Maron]

Well, so like we got Scott Walker, Joe Ozzy, and what are the. Who are the painters that are hanging?

[Brady Courbet]

I mean, I would say Rothko guy. Well, no, I love Rothko, but not it wasn't on my mind, in fact. No, it's more of the chiaroscuro thing where, like, when we're shooting, we're really trying to achieve the quality of a Goya or something, where it's essentially epic, almost. Well, it's also just the sort of the balance of. Of light and dark, with an emphasis on the darkness. We really torture the negative so that essentially it even has the texture of a painting. Especially now, where everything kind of looks like Apple Plus.

[Mark Maron]

But. So you have control of that when you shoot on film.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, you absolutely do. I mean, you can shoot if you expose negative properly and you don't push it. And it's just. Then it can just be very clean and sort of. It can be sort of what the Alexa and the red cameras have sort of tried to emulate.

[Mark Maron]

Right.

[Brady Courbet]

But there is all of this latitude where you can achieve something with the quality of the image, which is where really is. There's a lot of noise. I mean, it's sort of like. It's like a vinyl, you know, like.

[Mark Maron]

No, I think that's it. I mean, I think I can see that. Did you do that in VoxBox as well? Yeah, because I think that's what I was trying to talk about, about that visceral kind of intimacy that is captured that you can't quite explain, but that kind of explains it.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. Like, the childhood of a leader. Vox and the Brutalist were all shot by the same cinematographer. And, you know, he and I had. One of the reasons that we sort of continue to collaborate is because we. I think, you know, we really think about making pictures in the same way.

[Mark Maron]

Right.

[Brady Courbet]

And we realized that when we met each other, you know, that we were. We liked digital photography, but we kind of only liked its earliest iteration. Like, we like Dogma 95. We liked Julian Donkey Boy, and.

[Mark Maron]

Because you could kind of see there was this texture.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, yeah, there were these. That's right. There are these pixels.

[Mark Maron]

Right.

[Brady Courbet]

It was. It was honest. There was something really authentic and exciting about it.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because at that point, it still referenced something organic and almost homemade.

[Brady Courbet]

That's right, yeah. And then. And then, you know, it got sort of sanded down and, well, they tried.

[Mark Maron]

To perfect it, like, they. They. Or whatever that means within the relationship.

[Brady Courbet]

Well, absolutely. And the other thing is, is that it was a quality of image that I think that. That executives understood, because it was uncomplicated. It was just pretty.

[Mark Maron]

And also easy to. To fix.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, easy to. Easy to fix, easy to change.

[Mark Maron]

Right. That's What? I mean, yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, I think that's right.

[Mark Maron]

Well, that's interesting. So they had more control.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, no, of course. I mean, look, I have very complicated feelings about television today. It's frequently described as a writer's medium. I would describe it more as an executive's medium. And that is because there are so many keys that have to turn and think about it. It's because it's expensive. I mean, if you are making something which is, let's say, between 1 and $10 million an episode on any scale, it is much more expensive than a film. Yeah. And so, you know, people feel especially entitled to sort of weigh in on it. And everyone's got an opinion about, like, the lead actor's jumper. You know, like, it's a very. It's a really weird process. And there were. What's funny is that, like, as a format, like, I actually. I love the format. I mean, many of my favorite films were made for television. When I think about, you know, Burn on a Wire or Fanny and Alexander, I mean, these were all made for tv, so I don't have a problem with television. You know, I love Curb youb Enthusiasm. I think it's a masterpiece. I don't. It's. It's. It. I'm not punching down. I just mean that the reality of the reality.

[Mark Maron]

But those are guys that had total control.

[Brady Courbet]

I. I'm. But that's exactly what I mean. You know, like, there are. Every once in a while, there are these artists that are able to make something that was not built to support them, function for them, and I love that, and I'm very supportive of that. So I just want to be clear that I don't have a problem with television writ large. My issue is that I've worked enough in the film industry that I understand how these things are made. And there is a reason that a, you know, a television show rarely has the same cultural impact as a film.

[Mark Maron]

Well, also, I noticed something just the other night, and I don't know why it took me so long to notice it. I saw an indie. It was a comedy. You know, it was obviously something that, you know, these two directors, you know, were like, you know, put together for a few years. They had the script and the film was serviceable.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah.

[Mark Maron]

But, you know, comedy's difficult because, you know, what's funny on the page. And if you want to make it funny on screen, you got to have a couple of sets of chops there in terms of skill set.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, totally.

[Mark Maron]

But filmically, it was just flat. And there's so many indies that, you know, these people churn out and they think it's their shot and they just want to sell it to a streamer. But there's no real vision there in terms of encompassing the medium of they're working in. And the reason that I. I noticed this was because a guy you worked with, I talked to Carrie Coon the other day. So I watched the Nest, and you were in his first movie.

[Brady Courbet]

Oh, you mean Sean Durkin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Maron]

And I'd seen the two, like, you know, within a day of each other, this comedy and this. The Nest. And I'm like, well, that's the difference. This guy's thinking about film.

[Brady Courbet]

That's right.

[Mark Maron]

And not just thinking about these lines that are supposed to equal funny if we just, you know, get them.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. No, I. It's an interesting thing. I mean, at the PGA Awards with the Producers Guild, which was the night before last, there was one speech that I found rather unsettling where someone that was. I don't know who it was, but someone was accepting a prize. And they essentially said that they don't buy into the authority, authorial concept that they said, well, this is a collaborative medium, essentially suggesting that it was not a writer's medium, it wasn't a director's medium, but at the Producers Guild Awards, that it was a producer's medium. And even though I actually think that that's true, I mean, that's what I've just been saying. I found it unsettling that someone actually thinks about it that way, literally.

[Mark Maron]

Right. Because if you're lucky, you have a producer that is willing to fight you all the way, and you kind of come up with a vision for the film.

[Brady Courbet]

Well, it's a different. It's actually a totally different thing. So, like, I have an extraordinary producer that I love who has a very different skill set than I do. And, you know, we have different ambitions. Like, I want to make my films, and I think that he wants to, you know, change the. I think he wants to totally change the status quo. Like, he has an ambition that is bigger than a project. It is like he wants to change the culture because he's frustrated with the way that things are functioning right now, or from his point perspective, the way in which things are so dysfunctional at the moment. And I think that's very interesting because he, of course, can work on many, many projects over the course of his life. Like, you can produce many more films than one film at a time. I can only make one film at a Time. So maybe if I'm lucky, I make seven to 12 films in my lifetime.

[Mark Maron]

Right.

[Brady Courbet]

And so this is just to say that, you know, I'm always disturbed by anyone who does a job that wants to be doing a different job. Like, if you meet, like, an editor that wishes they were making the movie.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

That's not great.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah. Because then he's making a reel.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah.

[Mark Maron]

Well.

[Brady Courbet]

Or if you. You want. You want your costume designer to be passionate about costumes because they're bringing an expertise to the table that you simply don't have.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

And, you know, I'm. You're. You know, when you're making a film, you're curating an experience that hopefully will go well. It's a funny thing, because on the one hand, I genuinely believe that, like, a novel, Right. You don't want a novel written by 25 people. You want. You want it. You want a novel that.

[Mark Maron]

I don't even want a novel with 25 people in it.

[Brady Courbet]

Well, that rules out the Russian.

[Mark Maron]

Totally, totally. Read Crime and Punishment, but make sure you write. Write down the names.

[Brady Courbet]

But there's a. You know, in all seriousness, I think what's so strange is that on the one hand, you know, I'm the first to admit that it is a completely collaborative medium. And, you know, this is the reason that, you know, Covid, like, no good films came out of it. Nobody was, like, in their house with their iPhone and made a masterpiece. Like, that didn't happen like it is. I watched a lot of people who tried. It wasn't. It didn't. It didn't work.

[Mark Maron]

I just did Instagram Lives, and that seemed to keep me going.

[Brady Courbet]

But. But I think that, you know, but on. But on the other hand, you do sort of need a captain of a ship. And I've worked for a lot of different captains, and I still work for different captains. You know, like, I direct second unit for people, and I write screenplays for other directors. And. And I. You know, at the end of the day, like, somebody needs the tie break. Like, somebody needs to be like, look, this is my project. I assume the responsibility. I sink with the ship. I sail with the ship. And that's the only way that it works, because otherwise, it just results in a lot of indecision.

[Mark Maron]

Well, I think that's what I was getting at with the producer. That was different at the time in the 70s, when you had these auteurs, these American auteurs that had to really push back on vulnerable studios to honor their vision. I guess I was thinking specifically about Robert Evans.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, of course.

[Mark Maron]

But it seems that with you, that at this point in time, because the business has expanded to such a degree and making an independent film is a different game, that you're able to forego having to fight with that executive structure that the same way.

[Brady Courbet]

I don't, I, I, I don't. For, I haven't forgone. Well, I have to. It's funny. Like, I think that I'll always be dealing with it to some extent. Yeah, I have a lot of support. I have an amazing team. Took me a long time to build that team, but I, I do have them now. And, and also I, I, I make films that are relatively inexpensive and, and that's important too.

[Mark Maron]

Like, I, but they don't look inexpensive.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, well, that's because if you spend money wisely and you move sand around in the box, you know, accordingly, you can make something that feels really big as long as you're spending money on what's going on screen and not just, you know, taking people to fucking Nobu or whatever on, on, on Friday nights after, after shoot. I mean, I mean, literally, like, it's, it's, I see the way that money is wasted and I find it frustrating a lot of the time because, you know, we could make a lot more movies with, you know, let's say $150 million. That's, you know, 15 to 30 films.

[Mark Maron]

Well, right, but, yeah, but so the, the, the, the perks and the expectations of people who aren't necessarily on the creative side or what they think is the norm in ways of treating people requires these accounts to kind of do that stuff.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, it's kind of part of the charade.

[Mark Maron]

Totally. I mean, there used to be a comedy festival in Montreal that was important at one time because it was before the Internet. You'd see new people, but that's sort of gone away. And then you just start to realize over time, well, this is just three, four days or a week of executives on the payroll going there to party for a week.

[Brady Courbet]

That's right.

[Mark Maron]

And that's the way the whole business is, is you get these people that are in it almost for the perks.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. I mean, it's also, it's, you know, I don't want to be too black and white about it because I do know so many extraordinary film executives, and I really mean that. Yeah. But, you know, of course, they're the exception to the rule. They just are, you know, like, I mean, there are few folks that really do their job with, you know, they operate from A place of power, not fear.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

You know, they are great producers in their own right, but generally it is just someone that represents the company's interests and, you know, they're just afraid of losing their job.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah. They put in place a blame structure.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, a blame structure. That's exactly right. Yeah, that. That's. That is exactly the right turn of phrase. And so I see all the time these kind of really. These folks that got their job for a reason, they've got really good taste, they have really good sensibilities, but they stop trusting their own sensibilities because they're having three staff meetings a week that are making them second guess themselves. And so over the years, I mean, how many executives have spoken to me sort of off the record and said, like, listen, this is what I think, but my concern is what they'll think, you know, And I'm like, but you're. They like. You are they like the blame. Like, this is the blame structure. And so it is this weird thing where I'm like, you have sort of othered like your colleagues, but you're all. And you're definitely othering, you know, us, the people who made the work for you. So, I mean, I said to one executive, you know, who was sort of apologizing for how they had treated the film and stuff, this film, a film. And. And they said. And, you know, I was like, you know, I feel badly for you, but I was like, you know, like, you have a house with a swimming pool and I have a storage unit, and these things are not equivalent.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

And it was a strange thing because on the one hand, I felt really kind of bad for them on a human level. On another level, I was pretty frustrated because I was like, you know, you have job security. My team and I, we're freelance for life, and yet we make the work that makes your job possible. And I just find there to be this. I'm very unsettled by the fact that, especially in America, because it's essentially capitalism that's run amok. Yeah. That, you know, filmmakers are infantilized and. And no one trusts them. It's like they need to be handled like, oh, handle the filmmaker. Otherwise they're gonna lose us so much money. And I'm like, no, but we make you money. We give you the work that makes your job possible. So instead of being treated with any degree of respect, you are strangely undermined all the time. And I find that really, really frustrating. I really believe that it's important that Final Cut tie break goes into directors, deals as something which is standard and precedential. And for me, it's mandatory. I will not make a film unless I have final cut, full stop. And so I'm not. This is how it works in many, many parts of the world, except for the US I find it interesting that in. In Hollywood, where you and I are having this conversation specifically, that so many folks are politically so liberal and yet creatively so conservative. I find it.

[Mark Maron]

Or fundamentally capitalist.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, absolutely. Of course. I mean. I mean, I could argue, I mean, philosophically, that even, you know, democratic socialist nations are fundamentally capitalist.

[Mark Maron]

Well, that's the global economy.

[Brady Courbet]

Correct.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

I mean, you look under the hood of the car, you find capitalism. Sure. But I just find it really interesting that, like, you know, that I also find that right now, in general, like, the sort of the puritanical zeal of the left reminds me of, you know, of conservatism of 75 years ago. So I'm disturbed by that because I'm so far left that I'm falling off in the Pacific Ocean. But I find it strange that freedom of speech, et cetera, is not really encouraged in this day and age.

[Mark Maron]

Well, yeah. On both sides, for different reasons. That's correct. Because as it's evolving, all these people on the right who were yelling about free speech was really over a couple of words. Ultimately, it was shallow in its understanding. And once they have it, it's very conditional. They want the freedom to say shut the fuck up to other voices.

[Brady Courbet]

That's right.

[Mark Maron]

That's right. And the left seems to just want people to respect through language, their position in life.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. No, I think it's absolutely right. I think what's hard is that what's at stake. What's at stake is our culture. Because if everyone is too frightened to ever speak their mind, especially, you know, your current job and the job you're doing right now, that job doesn't exist anymore.

[Mark Maron]

Right. And no one wants to have a.

[Brady Courbet]

Real conversation because they're too frightened.

[Mark Maron]

And it's frightened. It's frightened for one reason or another. Like my fear. Because generally I, as a person who talks and makes jokes, you know, I don't mind necessarily adapting to humanizing language. Language evolved, and that's primarily around slang, but the fear of saying something, as somebody with my point of view, politically, if the fear starts to creep in that you're gonna walk out of a theater and all of a sudden you're all alone out there at a hotel in Missouri, that you're unprotected and who knows? Who knows you're in town. So that kind of fascistic terror that's starting to creep up.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, no, I think you're totally right. I mean, Judd Apatow made an amazing joke the other night, sort of under his breath at the award show at the DGA Awards, which he was hosting. He was like. He was like, all right, well, we're gonna wrap this up, and I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go backstage, get online, and find out how my career is going. And I was like, yeah, he's totally. It's like. It's very funny because it's absolutely true. Like, how many people did he manage to offend in, like, the last 45 minutes simply for existing and having a point of view?

[Mark Maron]

But, like, we're entering a place so that, like, he's worried about offending liberals. So, like, you know, as this. Whatever we're in evolves, the fear of offending fascists is a deeper fear. Because it's existential.

[Brady Courbet]

No, that's. That. Well, yeah, I mean, that's. You're absolutely right. And. And this conversation has gone deeper, faster than I expected it to, but I totally agree with you. I mean, that's exactly. That's exactly right.

[Mark Maron]

I've been ending my show saying, like, well, hopefully this set will evolve into an HBO special that I'm shooting in May. And if that doesn't happen, you can say you saw me before the restrictions.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

No, that's. Yeah. I mean, that's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. But it's always this. This is the issue, which is that, like, the pendulum always swings so fast and so hard in response to whatever.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah. You're just hoping the pendulum doesn't break.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, yeah. Yes, that's correct.

[Mark Maron]

But going back, like, it seems that, you know, in your acting career, you went out of your way to work with guys who were, you know, risk takers. And, you know, and I can't get Losie out of my head because in the way that, you know, if you watch some of those Losie movies, movies, when they're over, you're sort of like, what happened? And that you're not afraid to do that. And I think that on a capitalistic level, that's the biggest fear they have. It's like, what does the ending mean?

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, Well, I think that it's interesting because everyone wants a moral tale. Like, they want, you know, they want to be told, you know, how and what to feel. I mean, you know, and humans are.

[Mark Maron]

More complicated than that.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. Why? I mean, look, I literally Had. I had a day in the span of 12 hours, I was called Zionist pig and anti Semite by two different people. And I was really, you know, I was really shocked because, of course, I have a very private life. I had a more public life. And then, you know, and I walked away from that, you know, as an actor. Yeah, because that's a different level of just, you know, putting yourself out there.

[Mark Maron]

But that speaks to directly. What we were speaking to, is that you put this stuff out there and then people project onto it. And, you know, in terms of culture and the way you talk about culture, you know, especially political culture, people aren't really tethered to a sense of history or context.

[Brady Courbet]

That's correct.

[Mark Maron]

So it's all reactive.

[Brady Courbet]

That's correct.

[Mark Maron]

And they're posturing. And if enough of them posture at the same time, then some movement happens.

[Brady Courbet]

That's correct. You understand how it works?

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

No, but I mean, you're totally right. I mean, and look, I think that making a film, making a show, putting out an album, whatever, it's a public art project, which means that people can paint on it, they can piss on it, they can do whatever they want with it.

[Mark Maron]

Now what? Now, tell me, like, getting back to the newest film and more specific. Well, let's start with, like, did you seek out directors that you would learn from when you were taking roles, or did you just take roles? I mean.

[Brady Courbet]

No, I didn't.

[Mark Maron]

Lars on Trier. That's it. Like, that's an outsider there.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, I didn't think of it that way. I just worked with directors I wanted to work with.

[Mark Maron]

Right. Well, so if you go deeper, it could be that reason.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, I mean, I wanted to work with them because I was, you know, I loved their movies.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

What I realized was that I couldn't actually make a career of only working with directors that I liked, you know, I mean, mo. Like great actors.

[Mark Maron]

You're gonna have to sell out at some point if you do that.

[Brady Courbet]

Well, I. Well, I guess. I guess what it is, what I started realizing about. About actors, like, real. Like, you know, real performers versus how I felt. Cause I felt sort of fraudulent. Like, I was like. I don't know how. Like, people be like, how was your day? I was like, I don't really know.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, I think I did it.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, I gave. I gave someone else raw material to work with. Like, it's just like a weird. It was a weird thing. I didn't have a real sense of autonomy. But really great actors, I think that they just love it so Much that they're happy to be there for the role, they're happy to do their piece. And, like, they, and that's like, you know, and they're, and they can be like assassins. Like, if you're working with, like, a really great performer, it's insane to see, like, Adrian, like, Adrian. I mean, Adrian is like, for me, Adrian is like Gregory Peck. Like, he is like a, like a performer of another era.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

Like, he, for me, even just, like, aesthetically, like, you know, he, he's like, of another time, and he feels like Robert De Niro. Like. And I just think that, like, in a day and age where a very different kind of leading man is sort of like, on the rise, I'm so comforted, personally, as a filmgoer, to watch someone like Adrian, you know, like, as the top liner. So I have this real affection for him, and both him and Guy Pearce, as well as Felicity Jones and Joe Alwyn and kind of like, you know, the, the, the main, the main, you know, players on the film. Yeah, they were just, like, incredibly prepared in a way that I was almost unaccustomed to. Like, they're, they, they didn't miss a syllable. Like, every take was flawless. I mean, I, I, I mean, that's.

[Mark Maron]

Fortunate when you're on film.

[Brady Courbet]

Well, it wasn't flawless. It wasn't flawless on our side. You know, like, we would have a bump in the track and we'd have issues. But the only way that I was able to make this film in 33 days for $10 million was that I had a team that was so, like, they'd worked for four months before they arrived. And I just appreciated it so much. I'm really sorry to the entire cast.

[Mark Maron]

But the story is sort of informed. Like some people are saying it's a sequel to the other movie that Adrian did with the Pianist. Yeah. Yeah. Which is interesting. Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

Well, it's interesting because I haven't seen the Pianist since it came out.

[Mark Maron]

But just as a character, I think. No, of course I talked to Adrian. But what is about your life that informed this story? I mean, it's a, you know, it's a movie that when you watch it, you're like, how did this not come from a book? So you kind of made a novel as a film that it's an original screenplay. So what was the moment where you're like, this is the area that I'm going to explore because it'll get me to class issues, it'll get me to that period of capitalism. It'll get Me to the Holocaust. I mean, it was a portal to a period in history, but also, you know, the struggle between art and commerce at that time.

[Brady Courbet]

I think that every film I've made is really about like a post traumatic generation. So the childhood of a leader was about the six months leading up to the signing of the Treaty of Versailles after the First World War, and sort of about the way that Woodrow Wilson inadvertently paved the way for fascist uprising some 20 years later. Vox was a film about post columbine and post 9 11America. What Vox and the Brutalist have very much in common is that when I was thinking about making a film on the post war years, and I was thinking a lot about post war architecture and how it was a. A response to what had sort of occurred in the first half of the 20th century, I was thinking about Mies van der Rohe walking into Lucille Ball's living room and I Love Lucy and presenting his concept for his space. And I was like, that's very, very radical. And I just, I just think that what's interesting about the 1950s is that the American sitcom was very much in response to sweeping under the rug. Everything that had occurred just a few years earlier. And Vox for me was about how Real Housewives of New Jersey was sort of a response to that as well. It's sort of about the new culture, is this thing which is. It seems to be really sweeping under the rug what's occurred just a decade earlier and trying to make light of a very disturbing moment in time, like narcissism and solipsism. This is definitive of our era. Yeah, and of course it is, because otherwise we would be doing something really meaningful about kids shooting other kids in the face on a daily basis. I mean, every week. I mean, I can't tell you how many festival programmers and stuff, they would come to me at the beginning of the movie, like before the film started, and they'd say, hey, can you just give a trigger warning to the audience? Because they think they're coming to see a film about a pop star, but it opens with a school shooting. And I was like, no, that's sort of the point. The point is to not make them.

[Mark Maron]

Aware those kids didn't get a trigger warning.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, well, exactly. And I was like, this happens hundreds of times a year. I mean, so much so that it only qualifies as a mass shooting if three or more people are actually killed. Yeah, like, forget about injured. Like if they just get injured, like for the rest of their life, that doesn't even make the news.

[Mark Maron]

It's interesting in that movie that you choose to make the terrorist act in the, you know, the second act. Nebulous. That shooting is shooting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But with this, with the brutalist, you know, the. I think the depth of the movie in terms of, you know, what you're talking about is shifting culture, but also antisemitism that eventually becomes part of the arc a bit. Absolutely. And just the struggle of an artist. I mean, it's all in there. But, you know. So your initial interest was with Van der Rohe.

[Brady Courbet]

I mean, it sort of started actually with Marcel Breuer, who, you know, for context, Walter Gropius, you know, had him position at a university in the US after the Bauhaus was shut down by the Nazis in 1935.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

There, in reality, there were zero examples of anyone that, you know, got stuck in the quagmire of the war, certainly, like, you know, that. That. That survived the camps and then went on to have a career in the. In the 1950s. That didn't happen.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

I consulted a specialist to ask them that, that question, specifically a guy named Jean Louis Cohen. And I said, because I wanted to make sure that if we were going to tell this sort of virtual history, that there was no overlap with any existing person.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

And there wasn't, because the film was sort of. For me, it was. We always talk about the lives lost, of course, but there were also the livelihoods lost.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

And I, whilst going through the Bauhaus archives, looking at all of these unrealized projects, it was so. It was devastating. Like, I felt really devastated about it and I just thought about all these young visionaries that must have felt so exhilarated about the potential of the future, and then they had everything taken from them. And I just found it really, really profoundly upsetting. And I felt that the film would serve as a kind of memorial because it's absolutely fictional. But I described it to Felicity and Adrian as the Refugee's Revenge. And the film is working on. On several levels, of course. It's a 1950s melodrama with a capital A antagonist that could rival Joseph Cotton or James Mason. And it also has the bluntness of a 1950s melodrama. And it was not constructed with subtlety in mind. It really wasn't. I mean, just because the 1950s, if we look at Powell and Pressburger, and I was specifically thinking about Michael Powell and Peeping Tom, which was a film that kind of ruined Michael's career, even though it's a masterpiece and I was constantly thinking like, oh, well, what would Douglas Erk do? And that was sort of, I think our. Are guiding light through the process. But of course, it's investigating very contemporary issues. And those themes are universal. I mean, beyond the fact that our character and characters are Jewish and their Jewishness, they all have a different relationship with. I mean, the youngest girl is clearly quite conservative or becomes quite conservative. Whereas, you know, Adrian's character, I think, is ultimately more consumed with, you know, his body of work and his own ego. Like there's not enough space for a higher power.

[Mark Maron]

Right. And then you get the American friend or cousin or whatever he was, who denies it completely, trying to pass.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mark Maron]

What's interesting to me in talking to you is that, you know, the depth of your empathy, you know, outside of the horror of genocide, was really about artists being shut down.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, well, it was about the way in which the immigrant experience and the artistic one, for me, are very similar. Which is to say that, you know, an artist is fighting for the right for their projects to exist. The immigrant is fighting for their right for their family to coexist. And I find that the first chapter of the film, Part 1, takes its name from the VS Naipaul book the Enigma of Arrival, which is a memoir that he wrote about emigrating from Trinidad to. To the UK, where he eventually lived for 20 something years at Stonehenge. And part of the reason that there are these sort of cues in the film, there's signals that this is something that is. That is bigger than one minority. It is something which is, you know, acknowledging all minorities and, you know, and certainly all artists. And it's the reason that every character in the film has a backstory. I mean, part of the reason that the film is as long as it is, is that there are no peripheral characters. They all kind of matter.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

And have, you know, they have a meaningful, you know, sequence in the film. And to create that space for those characters, it just kind of adds up to being over three hours long. Right. But what's funny is that I also think it's much more immersive. And I've never. I mean, I truly, truly haven't had, like, anyone complain about the length once they've seen the film.

[Mark Maron]

Right.

[Brady Courbet]

Like, I mean, I've had many people griping about it before they watched the movie.

[Mark Maron]

I found it to be, you know, just right.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, it moves. It moves. It moves at a clip. It really does. But I also think that when you're taking up that much space, you really feel like, okay, we gotta get the show on the road. So, like, I mean, I certainly felt that editorially, like, I didn't feel that I could indulge very much because I too had to watch it. Like, it was not like. And not only did I have to watch it, but I had to watch it over and over again. I think I saw the film from start to finish, like, you know, maybe over 60 times.

[Mark Maron]

Ah, so a lot of hours.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, I mean that's. It was really something like watching that many prints on 35 millimeter, on 70 millimeter, on the DCP, the IMAX version. I mean, every single version has to be supervised by you and your team. And usually there's something wrong. So then you have to watch it again, you know, and then again and again. And so I definitely got a dose of my own medicine and I, and I, I understand that people's time is valuable. I mean, it wasn't an option for me to turn it off. At least everyone else can walk out at intermission if they're not feeling.

[Mark Maron]

Take a break. Yeah. Or. Yeah. Or not come back. Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

Or not come back.

[Mark Maron]

So in terms of creating the illusion of space on, on the expense level, the structure itself, was that the biggest hurdle?

[Brady Courbet]

No, it was definitely squeaky. Wheel gets the oil. I mean, that was obviously top of mind. So we worked on that for every single day of our pre production period of 12 weeks. It was done in a very old fashioned way. We built a practical model, Star wars style. It was enormous. It wasn't as big as the building is in the film, but you had real texture, real light, real shadow. That's part of the reason that it looks as good as it looks. We also built a big portion of the institute to scale so that you would have certain shots that really basically the front of the building actually existed. Yeah. And then we just sort of digitally extended it with our practical model. So you. We were using techniques from a century ago and combining them with the techniques of today. And so, yeah, it was, it was, it was interesting.

[Mark Maron]

And I think that the character of the structure becomes very important because it remains unfinished.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I think, I mean, that's obvious. That's totally right. I mean, that's, that's my incredibly perverse sense of humor that you've sat there for three and a half hours and then you actually never see them turn the lights on. But that is the creative process. The creative process is generally disappointing. So I think it was sort of, it really is. It's like you have like, you know, you Constantly are like, is it worth it? Like, I don't.

[Mark Maron]

After a certain point, like, I don't know.

[Brady Courbet]

I don't know that it was worth it. I'm not sure. Like, so I suffer. The film made seven, you know, was made over the course of seven years. By the time I'm done with this promotional campaign, it will have been eight years. I've definitely, like, you know, years of my life have been eroded as a result of the stress of making the film, of protecting the flame of the film. And, you know, I can't. Even though the film was, like, you know, has been so impactful and ultimately even commercially viable, which is kind of amazing.

[Mark Maron]

Doing all right?

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah. It made $25 million. I mean, it cost 10. So you're good? Yeah, I'm good. I cleared the hurdle.

[Mark Maron]

And now you're just waiting for your check.

[Brady Courbet]

Oh, God, I wish. I wish that's how it worked. This is not how it works. It's like the waterfalls are so fucked up. Like, everyone gets paid back, like, you know, 17 times over before you make a dollar as its creator. It's amazing. But, no, I just. I do really wonder, like, my daughter's 10 and a half years old, and I missed out on a lot in the last few years to make the film. And fortunately, we have an amazing relationship and we facetime constantly, even when I'm away and stuff. But it's not the same. And I don't know if eight years of torment is worth four months of success. Like, it's hard. I don't know that. That it's. That's a very difficult thing to qualify.

[Mark Maron]

But at least the time, like, you know, as having done the small amount of acting I've done on a set, it becomes like that too. Is the four hours in the trailer worth the five minutes? Because what are you going to do with your time? I mean, at the very least, you can say you were actively engaged with a process you had control over for a long amount of time.

[Brady Courbet]

No, no, no. I mean, and. And I mean, look, I also. I posed the question almost rhetorically. There's a possibility, you know, I don't think I would do things a different way. Cinema for me is like a cathedral. And it's something that I very much worship at the altar of for whatever fucked up reason.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

But I do. As I get older, as I, you know, as you get older, you. You start saying good goodbye to people, you know, I mean, people drop dead. And. And I think that you value your time differently, and I think that you have different priorities. And I definitely think that there's certain sacrifices that I made a decade ago that I couldn't make today. You know, it's like, as you get older, you can't sleep on people's couches anymore. Yeah, it's like that weird thing where. Well, it's like a funny. I used to be the most flexible. Like, oh, this is fun. Now I'm like, where's the hotel? Oh, yeah. Where's the nicest hotel in town?

[Mark Maron]

Yes.

[Brady Courbet]

It is like. It's very funny because I really. I slum it at home, but I'm on the road and I'm just like. I get pretty fucking fancy.

[Mark Maron]

Well, yeah, fancy, but also, it protects your. It's a boundary in a way that, you know, you only have these small bits of life that you can, you know, kind of insulate yourself.

[Brady Courbet]

I want to take a bath.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, exactly.

[Brady Courbet]

No, I want to take a bath. At a comfortable bath.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah. You don't want to worry about, like, what time are you going to need the living room? You know?

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, but totally. I mean, that's exactly right. I mean, I've been made. Like, I. I would when I. When I had my daughter, you know, my partner and I, we were like. We were like a circus family.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

Like, we, We. We. We slept on so many couches and so many spare bedrooms and. And, you know, I think the three of us slept in twin beds and stuff.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah.

[Brady Courbet]

Well, and then. And now. And it's just. It just us up and now we're. We can't do it anymore.

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, you can't do it anymore. Well, I appreciate that you. You are a worshiper in the cathedral of cinema.

[Brady Courbet]

Thank you.

[Mark Maron]

And despite the length of time it took you to make this, I assume you're, you know, whatever you're saying now will shift a little bit as soon as you immerse yourself in the next thing.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, I think that as soon as I get a little bit of sleep, honestly, like, I just. I've been on a world tour for so long, and I think that, you know, the Oscars are. Are on March 2nd.

[Mark Maron]

You excited?

[Brady Courbet]

I'm. I'm excited for it all to be over. I really am. I don't. I don't have. I'm really also excited about the foundation that it has helped my team and I build to make our work more sustainable. Like, you are freelance for life. And I don't expect this to completely change my whole world because the reality is that most people don't remember who won something a Year ago or two years ago, literally until the lists come out. Yeah. But what's cool is that for the next 365 days especially, we can use this sort of boost, this jolt of energy and attention to build a stronger foundation for the next project. And I think that ultimately you're always just, you know, like, looking towards the next gig.

[Mark Maron]

Do you know what it is?

[Brady Courbet]

I do. Yeah. I do. And I've been working on it for a long time, and. And I'm. And I'm excited about it, so I feel really like I'm just. I'm excited to do something very different, and. And it's also a very different period of world history, and I just, you know, it'll. It'll be nice.

[Mark Maron]

What period?

[Brady Courbet]

It spans 150 years, so pretty big arc. Yeah. It's not the majority, I would say, of the film is. Is it takes place in the 70s.

[Mark Maron]

Oh, that's a good time.

[Brady Courbet]

Yeah, yeah, it is. It'll. It's. I've. I've worked in it before, but. But this. It's. It's sort of about American mysticism and a lot of things that I'm sort of fascinated by.

[Mark Maron]

Oh, that sounds exciting. Thanks for talking, man.

[Brady Courbet]

Thanks, pal. I appreciate it.

[Mark Maron]

That was a great conversation. The Brutalist is nominated for Best Director, Best Original Screenplay, and Best Picture at the Oscars. It's still in theaters. Go see it. And now you're all loaded up with what we talked about. Hang out for a minute, folks. Hey, people, check out the new Audible original podcast. That's anything but typical. The Unusual Suspects with Kenya Barris and Malcolm Gladwell. This unlikely duo is speaking with some of the world's most influential figures to hear their unexpected success stories. Hear guests like Jimmy Kimmel, WNBA legend Sue Bird, Maryland Governor Wes Moore, Dr. Dre, and others. Listen to the Unusual Suspects with Kenya Barris and Malcolm Gladwell on Audible. Now go to audible.com unusualsuspects hey, people, on Thursday, you'll hear a great talk I had with comedian Mo Amer, and we talked about comedy, his Netflix show, and his life as a Palestinian American. I will tell you, after watching the last special and both seasons of the show, you know, my appreciation for hummus and olive oil has taken. It's in new depth. I have new depth. Well, you know, I always liked it, but, like, you know, it's so omnipresent in both the special and the shows. I'm like, holy fuck. I've really got to consider this in a real way now.

[Brady Courbet]

Yes, please do Please do.

[Mark Maron]

Because it's wildly irritating when people don't.

[Brady Courbet]

Like, you just walk into a fucking restaurant and they're like, here's your. Almost like.

[Mark Maron]

It's grainy.

[Brady Courbet]

It's, like, in a side. And it's like, what is this? What is this?

[Mark Maron]

Yeah, well, I'm relatively. I understand the purist approach to it, because when I was in Astoria, you go up to the Egyptian place. Oh, yeah. And they give you hummus. And you're like, I can't. No matter what kind of food processor I have, I can't. I can't get it to this texture. There's, like, no way I can get it this smooth. And then, like. And I get obsessed with it. And even watching your show, I'm like, what is the special grinder that's gonna get it this smooth? That episode with Mo Amer is coming up on Thursday. To get every episode of WTF ad free, sign up for wtf, Just go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast. Here's a pretty simple pass at some guitar work here. I know I'm. You know, my confidence waffles with everything. Boomer lives Monkey and La Fonda cat angels everywhere.