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- [00:00]
Marc Maron
Lock the gate. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers. What the fuck, buddies? What the fucksters? What's happening? I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. How you doing? What's going on? Where you at? How's the stress level? How's the despair level? How's the anxiety level? What about joy? Huh? Where's the joy? Are you finding joy in your heart? In your heart? Are you taking it easy? Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, that's. That's what's happening. Today is interesting because today I talked to Chris Fleming. He's a comedian. You know, he's. He does a pretty big act. There's music involved. There's. Sometimes there's a lot of musicians on stage, but no, but mostly he's a standup. And the odd thing about Chris is that I'd seen clips of him here and there. And I know there's a generation or two younger than me that, you know, he's sort of in this scene with, you know, like, Kate Berlant, Hannah Einbinder, these comics that are. Yeah, I guess you would have called them alt. But for me, a lot of times, if somebody is doing the job, they're a comedian. But I didn't know who he was. He's got an interesting look, and I'd seen his reels, and I didn't know what to make of him. And I just booked him because I'm like, I know this guy's gonna be interesting. You know, I don't know where he's coming from or where he's at, but I hadn't really watched his stuff yet. And I booked him because I knew he would be interesting. There was no way he wasn't going to be interesting. But the surprise for me, and I. And I told him this. So I'm not. Not just, you know, I'm not just saying something negative. So I watch his special. He's got a YouTube series that I didn't know about. Cause it was, you know, I'm old. Called Gale, which got pretty popular. He plays basically his mom's friend. And his comedy special, there's a couple, but the one called Hell is streaming on Peacock. So I. I watch some Gale, and then I watch his other special, and then I watch Hell. And what. What I kept seeing in the midst of, you know, his kind of frenetic way of delivering what he does, is that he had real fucking standup chops. And not just chops. I mean, like, he could riff, man. And that's a rare thing. I'm not talking about audience work. I'm not talking about crowd work. I'm talking about real freedom of mind, stream of consciousness, riffing with confidence. Because, you know, he's got standup chops. And I, I never thought that I was right. When I started watching it and I saw how he was going at it with the audience, I was like, holy fuck. What this guy is hiding is that he knows how to do this because he doesn't do straight standup. It's not like club work. But, you know, I find out from talking to him that he, when he was a kid, he was doing open mics like he knows how to do standup. And it was such a treat and a relief in some ways that, you know, I could find this commonality that, you know, he loves standup, but he does stand up in a way that is rare where, you know, just legit stream of consciousness. I mean, you can see a lot of people, you know, have a certain pace, but, you know, believe me, a lot of times they're just doing an act over and over again. But I could tell this guy can go off and do it with references that are interesting and way of thinking. That is interesting. So I was, I know it's odd to say I was surprised and excited that he was the real deal. And you'll hear me talk to him in a minute. Tomorrow I'm in Durham, North Carolina, at the Carolina Theater of Durham, Charlotte, North Carolina. I'm at the Knight Theater this Saturday. And I'll be in Charleston, South Carolina, at the Charleston Music hall on Sunday night. Next week, I'm at Largo here in LA on Tuesday night, March 25th. Then Skokie, Illinois. I'm coming to the North Shore center for the Performing arts on Friday, March 28th. I believe that sold out. And Joliet, Illinois, I'm at the Rialto Square Theater on Saturday, March 29th. I'm then coming to Michigan, Toronto, Vermont and New Hampshire. Also, tickets are now available for my HBO special taping in Brooklyn at the BAM Harvey Theater on May 10th. And those are going. So get them. You can go to wtfpod.com tour for all my dates and links to tickets. Please go there for the proper link. Don't just google Marc Maron tour and then put your city, because then you'll go to a scalper site. But as I told you, I think last week that my anxiety had gotten to a point where it was like overwhelming. And look, granted, we're living through what we live through. There's plenty of anxiety to go around. I've always been prone to catastrophic thinking, and I've always been prone to. When I've got some free time in my mind to just. I don't know, my brain just picks up on things that I should worry about and I may not need to worry about. And I just create scenarios and I create situations and I create, you know, stuff that just causes me extreme panic to the point of paralysis. And I've always done it and I've always lived with it. And I've had some realizations around it recently as I get older that, you know, that one of them happened after this psych eval. I guess my assumption has always been on some level that everybody deals with this and they just don't. So I took it upon myself to make an appointment with a real shrink, a real psychiatrist. I know shrink's an old timey word to actually get a psych evaluation, which I'd never really had an hour and a half sort of psych evaluation to try to focus in. And look, I've done all the things, I don't know that I've done them consistently, but I've certainly done some of them for long enough to try. I've done the sort of recovery element in terms of trying to get into the present. I've talked a lot about how a lot of what you're reacting to in terms of panic is something your brain is doing. It's something your brain is making up, either on purpose or it's just what your brain does, which is mine, and separating that from things you really have to be anxious about. But even those things in terms of fear and panic, you do have choices around those. If it's not directly or immediately in the present affecting your life, some of us choose to just keep hammering away at our brains with stuff that is just terrifying either on your phone or on your computer. And you just feed it and feed it and feed it until you get yourself into a pretty, you know, a pretty electric panic. And the name of my new band. But. But, you know, it gets to a point where it has been lately where. Especially like if I'm about to travel or if I'm on the way where I can't get any peace from it, even if I do something that I enjoy, you know, that gets me out of myself and, you know, I'm expressing myself, whether it's standup or music or conversations right after, I'm like, right back to it, just like you. I can't even. I'LL think about what I thought I did wrong or what I could have done better. Or I'll just think about, like, are my cats okay? Or I'll think about what if the car gets, you know, a flat tire. I'll think like, it's crazy, man. You know, anything I'm heading into, like, even, you know, today when I'm traveling, I'm like, oh, man, am I going to be, you know, what boots should I wear? Do I want to deal with taking them off? Is it worth it to wear them? It's just like, it's, it's. It's non stop, dude. And it's gotten worse. And I think a lot of that is because, like, there's something about living in a world where there's actual things to be afraid of on the daily and, you know. Yeah, it's. I think some part of my brain, in order to find peace, wants to overwhelm that with my own fears. I want to own it. You know, I want to. I want to. I want to sort of tamp down the actual things that should be making me frightened and just generate things in my immediate mind in life that I can make more frightening. Maybe, I don't know. Now I'm psychoanalyzing myself. The point of this was I went to a psychiatrist and, you know, we did the evaluation, you know, and it was very interesting because it's been a long time and I've never really been one for medication. You know, I did a little bit back in the day to, you know, get. Get out of my own way to process some other stuff.
- [08:35]
Chris Fleming
But.
- [08:36]
Marc Maron
But I'm really sort of not about that. I'm more about sucking it up, living through it. And, you know, I. So I told a little bit to this guy about my past and about my childhood and about, you know, things that have happened in my life. And I told him about, you know, what exactly I'm experiencing. And we did the depression survey and I'm not depressed. I have some depression, but I'm not a depressive. And after, you know, really talking about a lot of the stuff that I'm going through and him kind of like processing it and him kind of sharing his experience with certain things around, you know, treatment and whatnot, you know, we landed on. Well, he landed on obsessional anxiety. I like it. That's it. You want a name for the thing? Obsessional anxiety? Yeah, I gotta. I got a name for it. I always remember that scene in Ironweed, the movie where Tom Waits says to Jack Nicholson, doc says, I've got cancer. And Jack says something to the like, well, I'm sorry to hear that. He's like, I've never got something before. Well, fortunately, I don't have that. But the idea that you now have a name for it, and then you have to decide whether that fits. I guess obsessional anxiety is somewhere in the OCD spectrum. He was not. Did not bring up adhd, did not bring up, you know, generalized anxiety. And, you know, in the way I heard it, I think it fits. And yesterday or day before yesterday, when after I saw him, I actually felt better just knowing it. Just having the name obsessional anxiety, I'm like, all right. And I didn't have it that day, but it was back today. So now the decision is, as I was saying before, but didn't finish. Look, I've tried meditation. I've tried a lot of things. You know, recovery meditation, all this stuff. I have the tools. But, yeah, they don't. They don't stop it for the long haul. And I haven't stayed disciplined around it. And yes, I drink a lot of coffee, and yes, I'm on nicotine. That has to exacerbate it. But the fact that this has been with me my whole life and that I always thought that it was just part of the human brain that everyone has. When this doctor told me, he's like, no, some people can turn that off. I'm like, come on. And like. And I'm a fairly, you know, self aware, educated guy. I did. I just. The idea that you. That there are people that don't experience this that can just stop it. I'm like, what can we do? I'd like to experience life without it, if that's possible. And. Well, he told me that, you know, there, there's SSRIs that they use for anxiety, you know, and there's. There's some other. There's this thing called electromagnetics. I think it's tms. And I'd heard about this other, this other drug, buspirin or buspiron or whatever, because I talked to a couple people with anxiety who had tried that. And I'm like, what about that? The busparon or whatever. He goes, look, well, that's, you know, that's. That's a good place to start if you don't want to jump into the electromagnetic thing, the TMS or whatever it's called. And I don't want to take SSRIs, because my experience with them is they, they. They deaden the edges. You know, they. They kind of Fog the edges of yourself and I'm not going to do them. But he said this Pusporin is, it might be a place to start because it really deals with one receptor. But the, the fact of the matter is it's a 5050 thing. It might work. It doesn't work for a lot of people if it does work. It's great if it doesn't, but it's kind of a 5050 thing. And I'm like, well, fuck it. And he says it doesn't stay in your system. It doesn't have any long term implications. Side effects are not that bad. Maybe you start with that. I'm like, all right, well, I'm willing to try because I'd like to. He was very clear about the way the brain works and, you know, what's established when you're a child and how that dictates in some ways or the relationship between that and your neurotransmitters or your brain chemistry and how, like, there are some things that are at the core of who you are that, you know, are really unchangeable and they are probably feeding or supporting, you know, the neural pathways that you've carved that create this issue that you have. So, you know, talk therapy, though, it can be effective and there's nothing wrong with it. Maybe you should try to see if you can get some space and get out from under this with this medicine. So I'm like, all right, well, fuck it, I'm going to try it. And that's a big deal. It's a big deal because I would like to get some of this out of the way so I can maybe try to find some happiness or at least things that make me happy, or at least some way to not be in that constant drive of anxiety and relief. We'll see. We'll see. But I thought I'd share that with you. That's happening. All right. That's happening. I'll let you know how it goes, because I'll be talking to you. Life is complicated, people. But here's a suggestion to make things a little easier. If you need to set up home security or it's time for an upgrade to your system, use the home security experts we trust at Simplisafe. Traditional security systems only take action after someone has already broken in. That's too late. Simplisafe's active Guard Outdoor protection can help prevent break ins before they happen. Hey, hey, hey. Take a step back, pal. We see ya. With AI powered cameras and live professional monitoring agents, there's always someone keeping watch over your property to detect suspicious activity. Also, Simplisafe is ranked number one in customer service for home security providers by both Newsweek and USA Today, and also by us here at WTF because we've always had great experiences with the SimpliSafe customer service reps. Right now, head to SimpliSafe simplisafe.com WTF to get the best value in home security. WTF listeners can get 50% off their new Simplisafe system with professional monitoring and their first month free@simplisafe.com WTF that's simplisafe.com WTF for 50% off, there's no safe like Simplisafe. Okay, so let's get into this Chris Fleming. His most recent comedy special Hell is streaming on Peacock for people in the LA area. He'll be at Largo on April 24 and May 15. And I am a new fan. This is me talking to Chris Fleming. Let me take a minute to tell you about two great new additions to my life. The carom and the heart. Those are the two rugs I just got from Revival Rugs, and they're perfect folks. I'm a rug freak, and it's not usually an easy decision. Rugs can be way overpriced and low quality. Revival's founders don't want you spending thousands on a rug, but they don't want you settling for less either. Their most popular line is Revival's Genuine Washable Rugs, which are truly 100% washable, but have the look and feel of a real rug so you don't have to sacrifice style for convenience. I picked out my rugs from the Revival site, and it was totally easy to find exactly the right rugs for my space. Visit RevivalRugs.com WTF and use code WTF20 for 20% off your first order. Once again, that's RevivalRugs.com WTFand use code WTF20. Nothing beats that feeling of instantly transforming a room with a new rug. I just had that feeling twice and now it's your turn one more time. Revivalrugs.com WTF with code WTF20 to save 20%.
- [16:31]
Chris Fleming
Do you like as a as like a host? Yeah, like going and being a guest on other people's is that I seem to like it less as time goes on.
- [16:39]
Marc Maron
Yeah, because it's it. How much can we talk? I mean, that's totally. That's all we do is talk. And after a certain point it's like I don't. You know, Even if I have new things to say. I don't want to fucking talk.
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Chris Fleming
It becomes just an exchange of statements after a while.
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Marc Maron
Yeah, it does. I mean, I don't mind having real conversations, but it's very hard not to just lock into, you know, people want to hear the. That story or this story, and then.
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Chris Fleming
You'Re like, all right, well, it's also you. You were trained to do what in the, you know, in the Carson days, I imagine the five to seven minute set. Right. And now that's true. And now you have to do two hours. You're stretching two hours every week.
- [17:16]
Marc Maron
Well, but they're not sets. I mean, it was when. By the time I started it, it was kind of easing out of Carson. It was more about Letterman. But, yeah, it was a five to six minute thing. That was a thing we had to figure out.
- [17:28]
Chris Fleming
I'm sorry I said Carson.
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Marc Maron
No, it's all right. I mean, he.
- [17:32]
Chris Fleming
But didn't mean to.
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Marc Maron
But at that point, he was kind of on its way out. Carson was not an option for me.
- [17:37]
Chris Fleming
Okay.
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Marc Maron
And I was an anti Leno guy.
- [17:40]
Chris Fleming
Of course you were.
- [17:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And then. But Letterman was definitely the guy.
- [17:43]
Chris Fleming
I heard Leno was kind of alt before he became. Is that wrong?
- [17:49]
Marc Maron
Well, I don't know that that's particularly true. I think he was respected as a comic.
- [17:53]
Chris Fleming
Okay.
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Marc Maron
I mean, I don't know if I. I don't know that. Alt. What was alt? You know, I mean, there was like three alt guys and they were, you know, weirdos that everyone kind of knew.
- [18:02]
Chris Fleming
Facing away from the crowd and something, you know, like.
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Marc Maron
I think that. I think that probably the beginning of alt was probably brother Theodore.
- [18:09]
Chris Fleming
Who's brother Theodore?
- [18:11]
Marc Maron
Oh, you gotta look him up.
- [18:12]
Chris Fleming
I think of Andy Kaufman because I'm a simpleton, but who's brother Theodore?
- [18:16]
Marc Maron
Brother Theodore was this weirdo who used to. Letterman had him on all the time. He was this weird old. I think he might have been a Russian Jew. And he had a show in New York that ran for years and he was just this angry, weird, ranting guy.
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Chris Fleming
He was pissed.
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Marc Maron
Yeah. Something. I don't know, like he would do. Very poetic ramblings. But it was a. But it was. It was. It was odd. It was a. It was almost avant garde. But he was a thing.
- [18:43]
Chris Fleming
He was a thing.
- [18:44]
Marc Maron
Yeah. But like, when I watch your shows, I didn't look. I didn't. I didn't really know what you did.
- [18:49]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, well, when I met you, you.
- [18:52]
Marc Maron
Someone said, in my mind, it was at a fancy party, I meet you at A fancy party. You were sitting with Hannah and some fishing goose soiree. Yeah. I just can't remember what it was.
- [19:01]
Chris Fleming
It was Sarah's. Sarah's rooftop.
- [19:02]
Marc Maron
Okay.
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Chris Fleming
That's it. It was two. We encountered each other twice. Yeah, Ione. I was talking Ione sky.
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Marc Maron
Oh, yeah.
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Chris Fleming
And you came over and you were talking and you scanned me. I don't think you loved what you saw. And you went back to Ione. Then you scanned me again. You were scanning me kind of hemisphere by hemisphere. And then eventually you decided not to engage. And then I said, okay, next year.
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Marc Maron
Oh, this was the year before?
- [19:25]
Chris Fleming
Yes.
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Marc Maron
No shit. You have this memory.
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Chris Fleming
Oh, I was shaking. Come on.
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Marc Maron
Yeah.
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Chris Fleming
Yeah.
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Marc Maron
Well, I do know that you're a little self conscious.
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Chris Fleming
You're very intimidating.
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Marc Maron
I'm usually just thinking about me. I'm not.
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Chris Fleming
Right. Which is the case with bears, too, right? With anybody, any predator.
- [19:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah, anytime. Well, I don't know if I'm a predator.
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Chris Fleming
You're not a predator. I was talking about bears. You're not a predator.
- [19:46]
Marc Maron
No, no, but I just mean you're.
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Chris Fleming
An herbivore, you're a vegetarian.
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Marc Maron
Yeah, Now I'm a vegan. Yeah, but I think most of the time when people assume that you're being snobby or whatever.
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Chris Fleming
Oh, no.
- [19:54]
Marc Maron
Or just even intimidating, I'm just sort of like, you know, I'm just focused. And then you're in the focus, and I'm like, what?
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Chris Fleming
Well, you're kind of. You're kind of stalking. And then this most recent year, someone says, mark, do you know Chris? And you go, yeah, he's come up on my feed recently, period. And I said, okay, well, look.
- [20:14]
Marc Maron
Not unlike. Look, I wasn't, you know, being dickish. And you did the tone correctly. And I think that what that tone tells me is like, I don't know what to do with you.
- [20:29]
Chris Fleming
Of course. I mean, and what's to be done? What's to be done with.
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Marc Maron
Well, no, you have to be reckoned with. Oh. Oh, shit.
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Chris Fleming
So there is. Okay. My heart just dropped.
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Marc Maron
There's a reckoning.
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Chris Fleming
I was afraid this might be a reckoning.
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Marc Maron
Well, no, but in a good way. Like when I saw you the first time, I can tell you exactly probably what happened when I was talking to Ione sky and I looked at you and I'm like, what is this guy doing with the hair and the thing? Who are you? What do you.
- [20:57]
Chris Fleming
Is that prosthetic?
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Marc Maron
How do you fit in? No, it's just sort of like this guy's trying something I hope it's working for him.
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Chris Fleming
Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God.
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Marc Maron
I've seen people try things.
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Chris Fleming
When a burn is also sympathetic, that's when it has.
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Marc Maron
I'm good at that.
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Chris Fleming
When it has a deep empathy, that's when it stings the most. I hope it's working.
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Marc Maron
Yeah. And then when I met you the next time, I had seen your stuff and I knew you were around because you were coming up on my feed. But there's a whole generation of people that I don't really know because I'm old now and I'm not out there as much, and I don't know the world you operate in because there's so many worlds, of course. But I knew you were a thing.
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Chris Fleming
Yeah. Yeah.
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Marc Maron
This guy's a thing. And, you know, he's everywhere to the point where, like, he's thinging everywhere, and I gotta reckon with him.
- [21:44]
Chris Fleming
So I think I gotta look up the verb to reckon.
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Marc Maron
Well, maybe we can do it. Do you have a computer? Why? You think I'm using it wrong?
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Chris Fleming
Oh, no, no. I am sure you're using it right. It's just. It sounds. Well, I don't think it's almost religious. It sounds punitively. It sounds like. Almost like smiting.
- [22:02]
Marc Maron
Consider or the second definition. Consider or regard in a specified way.
- [22:07]
Chris Fleming
Oh, that's less violent than what I was anticipating.
- [22:09]
Marc Maron
Okay, the first one is established by counting or calculation or calculate. That's not. No, I'm going with the second definition. I have to consider or regard Chris Fleming in a specified way.
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Chris Fleming
Oh, that's how it says that. Okay. I don't know. I'm part of it.
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Marc Maron
I added it. No, I added it.
- [22:23]
Chris Fleming
Okay.
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Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. But we can probably put it in. Is it like Wikipedia, the dictionary and.
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Chris Fleming
You know what?
- [22:27]
Marc Maron
You.
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Chris Fleming
You doing your own Googling? Yeah, I like that.
- [22:29]
Marc Maron
But as opposed to who? Like, a guy.
- [22:31]
Chris Fleming
Austin, Texas, has, like, their team of people on the computer.
- [22:34]
Marc Maron
Well, everyone's got a team. I don't even do video. I don't. I don't.
- [22:37]
Chris Fleming
Which is awesome.
- [22:38]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Like, it's weird. It's coming back around. Analog is back, baby.
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Chris Fleming
Every and every podcast is like 5K. It's like the Avatar cameras on YouTube.
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Marc Maron
Yeah, I know. I don't know. So you've gone out to Austin. What'd you do?
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Chris Fleming
No, no, no, no, no, no.
- [22:50]
Marc Maron
I can't imagine that.
- [22:51]
Chris Fleming
No, no. They stopped me at customs. They put one in my leg.
- [22:55]
Marc Maron
You have. You don't have the right hat. You have to put your hair in A bun and put it under a hat.
- [23:00]
Chris Fleming
I would need. That's true. There is a man bun on this. I have a. My. My head is shaped comically, believe it or not. I have quite a small head beneath this.
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Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. But I mean, you've had different lengths. You've settled on this.
- [23:14]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, I had in. I had a Mary Martin kind of Bob. Remember when she did Peter Pan?
- [23:19]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:20]
Chris Fleming
Believe it or not, the shorter my hair was.
- [23:21]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
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Chris Fleming
Like when I was young.
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Marc Maron
Yeah.
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Chris Fleming
The more I looked like Cynthia Nixon when I was starting out comedy.
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Marc Maron
Oh, really?
- [23:27]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think that everyone, you know, that everyone has crushes on you? People have. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [23:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
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Chris Fleming
My sister was like, oh, you're talking to Marc Maron.
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Marc Maron
Oh, really?
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Chris Fleming
You're from glow.
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Marc Maron
She's like, oh, oh, they like me from Glow. It's so funny that that's the guy they like. This self centered, gruff guy with no real. That guy's not neurotic. That was. That was the one choice I made as an actor. It's like this guy doesn't give a fuck about what people think about him. That should be fun to do for a little while.
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Chris Fleming
You do give a fuck about people think, though.
- [23:58]
Marc Maron
Well, I don't know if I give a fuck, but I certainly judge myself against what I think they're feeling.
- [24:04]
Chris Fleming
Whoa.
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Marc Maron
Do you know what I mean? What do you know about what anyone thinks about you? You seem to think about it.
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Chris Fleming
Oh, yeah.
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Marc Maron
I mean, that's like constantly.
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Chris Fleming
Oh, big time. Oh.
- [24:13]
Marc Maron
Oh.
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Chris Fleming
It's a very controlled. I would love to control the perception of me at all times.
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Marc Maron
Well, don't you?
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Chris Fleming
I try to. You can only. At some point you gotta stop reading the comments and seeing what people say. Cause then that gets in your head. I talk about this with Gary Goldman. Sometimes when people describe your comedy, you're like, oh, I didn't think I was doing that.
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Marc Maron
Right.
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Chris Fleming
And then you start doing.
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Marc Maron
It's worse when they hit the reason why you're doing comedy and they hit some deep trigger and you're like, oh, fuck. They. How do they see that?
- [24:38]
Chris Fleming
Oh, humiliating.
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Marc Maron
Yeah. It's the worst. But it seems like your whole event of my event.
- [24:43]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, okay.
- [24:45]
Marc Maron
The Fleming event.
- [24:47]
Chris Fleming
I'm seeing these words capitalized. The reckoning.
- [24:49]
Marc Maron
The whole event, the whole event of Fleming is to say, you know, I'm here, I'm aware of what you think.
- [24:58]
Chris Fleming
Oh, exactly.
- [24:58]
Marc Maron
And then I will transcend it because I'm magic.
- [25:06]
Chris Fleming
That was why I wanted to get into comedy, was to kind of be you know, in algebra, when it's like this X is a given, I want it to be like, okay, he's a. He doesn't have to explain himself.
- [25:17]
Marc Maron
Right. That's interesting. You really thought about it that way. I felt.
- [25:20]
Chris Fleming
I think I've since realized that's what it was.
- [25:23]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [25:24]
Chris Fleming
Like, in high school, I would. Loved when people knew I was funny in theater. And then in college and stuff. Then you don't have to be like, I know, I know. This is a little something. I know that, though.
- [25:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [25:34]
Chris Fleming
And then let's go from there.
- [25:35]
Marc Maron
Right? But then. But then. Don't you get that thing? It's like, but who are you, really? I mean, I know you're funny, but I mean, you know, I.
- [25:42]
Chris Fleming
Then that's when. That's when you don't hear from me again. When you start asking those questions.
- [25:46]
Marc Maron
Party's over. Yeah. Yeah. Hang out with that guy.
- [25:49]
Chris Fleming
That's bedtime.
- [25:50]
Marc Maron
But I, I. When I was watching, I don't remember which one of the specials I did take. Well, that was the next. Like, I booked you. You know, I said, I think I got to talk to that Fleming guy. Yeah.
- [26:02]
Chris Fleming
This got me nervous.
- [26:03]
Marc Maron
It did.
- [26:04]
Chris Fleming
Oh, yeah.
- [26:04]
Marc Maron
But it was really based on the event of Fleming that I'd experienced. And those were two singular events. And then whatever came up on my phone, I'm like, this guy has to. I gotta wrap my brain around this guy. Cause he seems to be out jumping around in a lot of places.
- [26:19]
Chris Fleming
So it's not positive. It's not negative. It is like, I have to acknowledge this.
- [26:24]
Marc Maron
Yes. That was the intent. So then I'm like, all right, it's.
- [26:27]
Chris Fleming
Like a chronic pain.
- [26:28]
Marc Maron
Well, no, no. It was like, I knew that you were unique and you were doing something that I may not have seen before, which is rare because even the weirdos seem to be almost like a commedia della arte thing. Like the entire spectrum of standup comedy, you know, the 10 or 11, the.
- [26:47]
Chris Fleming
Stock types, the zany.
- [26:48]
Marc Maron
That's right.
- [26:49]
Chris Fleming
Yes.
- [26:49]
Marc Maron
And then there's always, you know, weirdo. And that sometimes they can be redundant. You're like. There's a type of weirdo where you're like, oh, yeah, he's doing that thing. Yeah.
- [26:58]
Chris Fleming
Well, there's a lot of people now who are strange in a way where it's confusing that they understand. They're strange. It's like, do you know how you're doing that? Like, do you know, you would think that these people. I even think of Nathan Fielder as kind of confounding like, oh, no, he's a true.
- [27:11]
Marc Maron
He's a true weirdo.
- [27:12]
Chris Fleming
Right, Right. But how would you know to do comedy? That's. That's my confusion.
- [27:16]
Marc Maron
Well, I don't know what. Like, I don't know how long he did comedy, but I'm not a huge fan of the type of comedy he probably did. But I do like what he's doing now.
- [27:26]
Chris Fleming
Sure.
- [27:26]
Marc Maron
Like, there are guys that are weirdos that. That their intention is to. I don't know if it's nihilistic, but their intention is to do anti comedy.
- [27:35]
Chris Fleming
Exactly.
- [27:36]
Marc Maron
And. And that's never been my bag.
- [27:38]
Chris Fleming
Well, I remember listening to you talk to Tim and Eric on the podcast, and I listened, like, 2013, and you were like, I guess I'm afraid you're doing a bit with me right now, and I'm not in on it.
- [27:48]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah.
- [27:49]
Chris Fleming
And I get that.
- [27:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah. That was my biggest fear with them. I didn't trust them at all.
- [27:53]
Chris Fleming
You were paran. Looking over your shoulder.
- [27:55]
Marc Maron
Well, it just took me years to even trust either. Like, Heidecker has evolved.
- [28:01]
Chris Fleming
He's softened totally. Yeah.
- [28:04]
Marc Maron
And he's like, you know, and now his. I think his first intention was always to fuck with you. And now you just realize, like, he's just kind of an intense guy.
- [28:13]
Chris Fleming
Yes. He's a tiger in a cage.
- [28:14]
Marc Maron
Yeah. But he grew up somehow. But in talking about them, when I was watching all your stuff, I mean, I realized, like, I knew that Tim and Eric were doing a thing that was brilliant and inspiring and had a genius to it, and I could see most of the time through. I don't ever know how people create this stuff, if they do things on purpose or it's just the zeitgeist is in their brain. But I knew that they were playing with forms. I knew they were playing with video forms. I knew they were playing with Public Access. I knew all the things that was making this weirdness, but it sort of transcended anything. And I thought it was funny, but I didn't think it was laugh out loud. It was like, holy. You know, some of it was pretty laugh out loud, but I'm usually.
- [29:00]
Chris Fleming
I would die laughing at that.
- [29:01]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah, I think I can tell that they had an impact on you.
- [29:04]
Chris Fleming
Oh, hugely. I mean, the absolute vodka thing that they did with Zach Galifianak. There's moments that shatter your brain.
- [29:09]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [29:10]
Chris Fleming
And that shattered my brain.
- [29:11]
Marc Maron
Which ones? I don't know if I know that one.
- [29:12]
Chris Fleming
They were. They were tasked with making a commercial for Absolut Vodka.
- [29:16]
Marc Maron
Okay.
- [29:17]
Chris Fleming
With Zach?
- [29:17]
Marc Maron
Yeah. He had.
- [29:18]
Chris Fleming
And it is. I mean, it's basically now like, everything is chasing that.
- [29:22]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [29:23]
Chris Fleming
So if you look back, it might not. Like, you know how, like, every commercial feels like Tim and Eric?
- [29:26]
Marc Maron
Oh, really?
- [29:26]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, I think so.
- [29:27]
Marc Maron
Well, I noticed that about your stuff, too, when I was watching the short videos and some of the, you know, the music videos or whatever.
- [29:33]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [29:33]
Marc Maron
And then a commercial would come on YouTube, which are a specific type of commercial. I'm like. I'm half expecting you to be in that.
- [29:40]
Chris Fleming
I did a Tim and Eric commercial.
- [29:41]
Marc Maron
Oh, you did?
- [29:42]
Chris Fleming
For Glue? Yeah.
- [29:43]
Marc Maron
Oh, that's funny.
- [29:43]
Chris Fleming
It was scary.
- [29:44]
Marc Maron
So you worked with them?
- [29:45]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, I was just an actor in it.
- [29:47]
Marc Maron
Oh, really?
- [29:47]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, I was a dancer.
- [29:49]
Marc Maron
Okay. This was early on.
- [29:51]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. It was like, right when you got here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like 2012, maybe.
- [29:55]
Marc Maron
So what, were you living on the street? Where did they get their people?
- [29:58]
Chris Fleming
The audition room. There was a woman who was like, come on. She was trying to start a revolution, saying, if they keep us here, five minutes, overtime, then we can, like, press charges.
- [30:07]
Marc Maron
Oh. Oh.
- [30:07]
Chris Fleming
It was that kind of a scene.
- [30:08]
Marc Maron
Angry. Extra angry. Stand in.
- [30:10]
Chris Fleming
It was like the Albany bus station.
- [30:13]
Marc Maron
You got in, huh? Yeah. And you were nobody. They didn't know who you were.
- [30:17]
Chris Fleming
I thought I was in on it. I wasn't in on it.
- [30:19]
Marc Maron
No.
- [30:20]
Chris Fleming
I thought they might know I'm a comedian. No, I think they just thought I was an eccentric, which I guess.
- [30:23]
Marc Maron
Well, you are. But the point I'm making is that what makes me old or what makes me, you know, specific about comedy is I need to have some sense of the human in it. And if you take all that away, I don't always know where to land. I can see that. It's a thing.
- [30:42]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, but you want to see the beating heart.
- [30:43]
Marc Maron
Something, right? You know, something like, you know, what is at the core of this, and if your whole thing is to avoid that, then. But you're still brilliant. Well, I'm just not gonna connect in the same way, of course. I mean, but, you know, I had.
- [30:57]
Chris Fleming
An acting teacher in college who I thought grounded me. And then I heard recently that the way she describes it, this incredible acting.
- [31:03]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [31:04]
Chris Fleming
She said I was ungroundable, Right. And she was just gonna let me kind of float around.
- [31:09]
Marc Maron
But oddly, despite the nebulous nature of how you kind of your energy moves through things, you're kind of. You're hopelessly yourself.
- [31:20]
Chris Fleming
Oh, thank you.
- [31:21]
Marc Maron
Right. I mean, like, you're not. It doesn't seem like you're hiding too much there Might be some mystery there, but it seems like you're kind of putting it all out there.
- [31:29]
Chris Fleming
Well, I'm very inspired by Prince and the way the questions that he answered and didn't answer.
- [31:33]
Marc Maron
Oh, that's interesting.
- [31:34]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [31:35]
Marc Maron
You think about that consc.
- [31:36]
Chris Fleming
Yes, big time.
- [31:38]
Marc Maron
So what do you mean?
- [31:39]
Chris Fleming
Like, I think if you check off too many boxes, it doesn't make you interesting and affects the work too much. You're an. Except the people that are fully confessional is a totally different thing. But for myself, it's just also the way I was raised. Like, very much private. Like, be private.
- [31:53]
Marc Maron
But that's funny because there's, like, in all of the stuff, which is one of the reasons why I connected with the stuff, especially the standup, is that you're. I can see, like, even when you do videos, like, I can see where you have the idea. And then you decide, am I gonna say this or am I gonna commit hours and hours to making a video of this? Wow.
- [32:16]
Chris Fleming
Well, it's so much easier. You mean in terms of am I gonna do standup or am I gonna do something produced about it?
- [32:20]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [32:20]
Chris Fleming
Which is why I do stand up almost exclusively now. Because it's too much time.
- [32:24]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [32:24]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. I'm getting too old and I'm too tired.
- [32:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [32:27]
Chris Fleming
And so I. And then you find out right away if it's funny.
- [32:31]
Marc Maron
Right. But just like, you know, I can see, like, maybe I'm wrong. But, like, even the Boba video.
- [32:38]
Chris Fleming
Sure.
- [32:39]
Marc Maron
So you probably have sort of like, you know, you wrote a couple of things or thought two things about Boba.
- [32:43]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [32:43]
Marc Maron
And you're thinking like, well, that's a pretty good joke, but why not elevate it to this thing?
- [32:47]
Chris Fleming
Well, I'll tell you, the thought process behind that is if I do, there's certain bits where if I do them and they don't get laughs, but I still believe in them, I turn them into a song.
- [32:55]
Marc Maron
Oh, that. Oh, really?
- [32:56]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. Yeah.
- [32:58]
Marc Maron
That makes sense.
- [32:58]
Chris Fleming
Because then it's like, you can't avoid. This is a piece that exists.
- [33:02]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [33:02]
Chris Fleming
And so you have to deal with it existing, but you have to commit to it. You have to commit to it. But it's almost like the audience is like, well, this predates me. Whereas Stand up, it's like, we're all in this. But if it's like a piece, like a song or something. Yeah. I feel like it's also.
- [33:18]
Marc Maron
You have so many other things to elevate it.
- [33:20]
Chris Fleming
Oh, yes.
- [33:20]
Marc Maron
And so there's a whole other spectrum of things you can do creatively that probably some of it you don't even know is gonna happen until you get into the process of it.
- [33:30]
Chris Fleming
Oh. And the way that songwriting takes it elevates things accidentally in ways that you don't deserve, you know?
- [33:37]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [33:37]
Chris Fleming
And I love. I try not to rhyme either. I try not to be cute with it.
- [33:40]
Marc Maron
No, no, I notice that.
- [33:42]
Chris Fleming
Okay.
- [33:42]
Marc Maron
There's no rhyming. There's just this weird intensity. Well.
- [33:46]
Chris Fleming
Cause I'm trying to squeeze way too many words into a stanza, but that's funny.
- [33:51]
Marc Maron
See, that's.
- [33:51]
Chris Fleming
Man. Thank you.
- [33:52]
Marc Maron
But that's something that you're not gonna do in standup.
- [33:56]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [33:56]
Marc Maron
But what I realized in watching you, and it was surprising to me, to be honest with you. I was pleasantly surprised that you're standup at the core of Evelyn.
- [34:10]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [34:10]
Marc Maron
I mean.
- [34:11]
Chris Fleming
Oh, yeah. That's how I started.
- [34:13]
Marc Maron
Yeah. You know how to do standup. You're not.
- [34:15]
Chris Fleming
I'm very serious about standup.
- [34:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I know. Which was surprising to me. I'm like, what the fuck is this goofball doing? What do I. How much weird shit do I have to sit through to try to figure out what the fuck this guy is? Yeah. But I watched the last special first.
- [34:29]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [34:30]
Marc Maron
Hell. Or. Yeah. Yeah.
- [34:31]
Chris Fleming
Thanks for watching.
- [34:32]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah.
- [34:33]
Chris Fleming
I just watched yours. From Bleak to Dark.
- [34:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah. It's very different approach, but I loved it.
- [34:37]
Chris Fleming
And I love. And I love town hall. You made town hall look very different.
- [34:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah. You know, it's an interesting venue, but it's very wide.
- [34:46]
Chris Fleming
And it feels a little bit like a high school auditorium if you don't put that beautiful backdrop on it.
- [34:50]
Marc Maron
That made that whole special. That guy's a genius. I'm gonna use him again.
- [34:54]
Chris Fleming
I mean. No, you moving around. You block it.
- [34:59]
Marc Maron
No.
- [35:00]
Chris Fleming
You know.
- [35:00]
Marc Maron
Yeah. You know, at some point in time, I became a sitter. And it was very intentional. And it came out of, like, when I used to be bombing, that's when I would sit down. Like, I think the impulse is like, you know, you run around.
- [35:14]
Chris Fleming
The dragon has been slain.
- [35:16]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah. Kinda.
- [35:16]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [35:17]
Marc Maron
Or. But it's also sort of like. Well, I'm gonna just. You know, I'm gonna do the opposite here and just act as. Like, I'm comfortable as hell and just sit into the bomb. Wow. And then I realized what a great tool I've created for myself to make it intimate. And I can use it when I'm not bombing. So I was a sitter.
- [35:35]
Chris Fleming
You don't bomb for your own shows, right?
- [35:36]
Marc Maron
No, no, no. I don't bomb on purpose.
- [35:38]
Chris Fleming
No, no, no. But I mean, like, for your own theater shows, you. For your own crowd.
- [35:44]
Marc Maron
No, no, no. But, like, you can. And I think somehow you transcend this and integrate it, and I do as well, on my own part. But there's a point where whatever vulnerability you're moving through up there, whatever risk you're taking personally, could turn on you.
- [36:02]
Chris Fleming
Oh. And especially in front of, like, I'll.
- [36:04]
Marc Maron
Even if you're people, you know, like, they sense, like, it's not quite a lack of control, but it's sort of like the bottom falls out a little bit. Well.
- [36:13]
Chris Fleming
And if they can smell on you that you're trying something new out and they want. There's certain people that want you to be in the moment and trying, and there's certain people that. Certain crowds that want the stuff that works, and when they smell it on you, they can.
- [36:24]
Marc Maron
That you're not quite confident.
- [36:25]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's horrifying. How do my glasses fog up? Does that happen to you?
- [36:29]
Marc Maron
No, but sometimes, like, if I'm really. Like, it's been a while and it doesn't happen much anymore, but if I'm. If I'm. Because I don't want to physicalize it, if I'm not doing well and I can feel that, like, I'm not going to get him over the hump.
- [36:41]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [36:42]
Marc Maron
I get that weird sweat in the back of my neck.
- [36:45]
Chris Fleming
Well, that's great. That's your little secret. It's not even more because you're wearing a distressed leather jacket over that. So. No, that's up to you. And, God, it's between you guys, but I feel it.
- [36:54]
Marc Maron
And it's a horrible thing where you're just sort of like, all right, so my body's doing this thing. Now we're going to have to pretend like it's not happening.
- [37:01]
Chris Fleming
Sometimes I'll pinch a nerve. This is why I stretch a lot before shows, because I'll be in the middle of a bit. Like, I was on the ground doing this thing the other night and I pinched a nerve.
- [37:09]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [37:10]
Chris Fleming
And then you can't be like, you have to continue doing 40 minutes after that.
- [37:16]
Marc Maron
But do you draw attention to your pinched nerve?
- [37:18]
Chris Fleming
No. Because then if they secretly. That's when they'll kill you.
- [37:21]
Marc Maron
That's the one secret you have is the pinch nerve.
- [37:26]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. I start moving weird to avoid it. It's like when you get mic feedback.
- [37:30]
Marc Maron
But how do you know that's what does it. When you're jumping around like that and dancing and doing the splits and shit.
- [37:35]
Chris Fleming
Oh, you. What do you mean?
- [37:36]
Marc Maron
Well, I mean, you're very. How do you know that? That particular. Is it a very specific pinching? Because it seems like the way you perform, you could hurt yourself in a number of ways.
- [37:43]
Chris Fleming
Oh, absolutely.
- [37:44]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [37:44]
Chris Fleming
Oh. Oh, you should have seen a town hall. I fucked up my leg.
- [37:47]
Marc Maron
What'd you do at town hall?
- [37:48]
Chris Fleming
I did an hour town hall.
- [37:50]
Marc Maron
It wasn't recorded, though. Not a special.
- [37:52]
Chris Fleming
Oh, no, I put audio on my phone.
- [37:54]
Marc Maron
So you recorded one, the old one at Talia Hall. I have a lot of audio on my phone that I never listen to do with.
- [37:59]
Chris Fleming
I never listen to it.
- [38:00]
Marc Maron
I have hundreds. It's such a. I know there are moments there where I'm like, you could get that back. I know, but you don't want it back. What is that?
- [38:07]
Chris Fleming
Well, it's.
- [38:09]
Marc Maron
What do you think that is? Because I do it too. Like, I record everything.
- [38:11]
Chris Fleming
I think there's the fear that it might not. If it is good. There's the fear that it might not be as good as when you felt it.
- [38:17]
Marc Maron
Well, when you riff, which I assume you do a lot of, is that, like, you don't. It's almost like you don't know what's gonna be delivered to you in the moment. So then it comes, and it's sort of like, oh, my God, that was the best moment when I said that one sentence of the whole hour.
- [38:32]
Chris Fleming
But you can't recreate a lot of.
- [38:33]
Marc Maron
The time, I guess. And I think that's what we're keeping for ourselves. That's why we don't listen to it.
- [38:38]
Chris Fleming
And also, I find that I've been doing bits. I try to do it, like, a bit, maybe a couple of times before I put it out now, because I find that when I write the. I write the bits now, I try to write more of it, like. Or if I try to write word.
- [38:50]
Marc Maron
For word, I can't do that.
- [38:52]
Chris Fleming
And then I try to. But then I forget it.
- [38:53]
Marc Maron
Doesn't it die on the page?
- [38:55]
Chris Fleming
I completely fuck it up in the moment. Cause I'm like, wait, that doesn't make sense. So then I try to communicate what.
- [38:59]
Marc Maron
I was writing to the crowd.
- [39:01]
Chris Fleming
And that's when it's right. That's when you have Capturing something right. And that's what I like.
- [39:05]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [39:05]
Chris Fleming
Because it's. There's a desperation there.
- [39:07]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It has to work.
- [39:09]
Chris Fleming
Yes.
- [39:10]
Marc Maron
You've. You've cornered yourself.
- [39:12]
Chris Fleming
Yes. And that's where. That's where I want to put it out. I don't want it to. I don't want to then, like, workshop that for a while.
- [39:17]
Marc Maron
Right. But because you started in Boston, there's a guy you do like. I feel like a lot of the guys that I worked with back there when I started in Boston.
- [39:27]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [39:27]
Marc Maron
Are kind of like. Some of them are around the ones who aren't dead. Now when.
- [39:32]
Chris Fleming
Jimmy Tingle.
- [39:33]
Marc Maron
Sure. Jimmy Tingle, Yeah. Mack.
- [39:35]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, Tingle.
- [39:37]
Marc Maron
Dude. I remember like, you know, he was. I saw him right at the beginning before he was political and he had a harmonica and he was sweaty and he was still drinking.
- [39:46]
Chris Fleming
He was sweaty.
- [39:47]
Marc Maron
Very sweaty and kind of fat. He used to be a bartender at the Ding Ho.
- [39:52]
Chris Fleming
Which. The Ding. Which then became a comedy studio. Well, kind of. Right.
- [39:56]
Marc Maron
No, no. Well, well, Jenkins is of my generation.
- [40:01]
Chris Fleming
That's my guy. Rick Jenkins.
- [40:03]
Marc Maron
Well, that's good. You know, I'm glad that, you know, he found a world for himself. No, the Ding Ho was a Chinese restaurant in like Cambridge or Somerville. And it had a little showroom and it was like the place for a generation of guys, like, who ran the show. I think Barry Crimmin started the show. It was a little before my time. I got there. It started doing comedy towards the end of the Ding time. But. So wait, where'd you grow up?
- [40:25]
Chris Fleming
In Central Massachusetts.
- [40:26]
Marc Maron
Where's that? Which?
- [40:27]
Chris Fleming
Stowe.
- [40:27]
Marc Maron
Stowe.
- [40:28]
Chris Fleming
It's like next to Acton.
- [40:30]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Not far. Like 20, 25 minutes out of Boston.
- [40:33]
Chris Fleming
Like an hour.
- [40:34]
Marc Maron
An hour?
- [40:34]
Chris Fleming
Well, I thought it was an hour and a half and my parents were just taken the wrong way. Oh.
- [40:37]
Marc Maron
Oh. So it was a bit out there because I used to do one nighters all over the place.
- [40:41]
Chris Fleming
Oh, like where?
- [40:42]
Marc Maron
Well, all over New England, I'm sure. Yeah. Oh, Pancho Villas.
- [40:46]
Chris Fleming
Okay.
- [40:46]
Marc Maron
In Lemonster with the disco ball. I'm sure.
- [40:49]
Chris Fleming
I ran a show in Clinton for a little while.
- [40:51]
Marc Maron
We should do. There was booking agencies. That's how I started is doing one nighters through these three agencies that would book all over New England.
- [40:58]
Chris Fleming
They're still. I used to. Well, one show I opened for Don Gavin and he confused me with the opener from the night before. They open it from. Had like a crew cut and looked nothing like me.
- [41:06]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [41:07]
Chris Fleming
But there was a fit. There was like a giant marlin up on the stage and I did a riff on the marlin.
- [41:11]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [41:11]
Chris Fleming
And he came up to me, he's like, you know, I do it. You know, I talk about the fish. Because he thought I was the guy. I'm like, no, Don. Like, I don't know.
- [41:19]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [41:19]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, But I get that now.
- [41:21]
Marc Maron
Sure.
- [41:21]
Chris Fleming
I completely get.
- [41:23]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [41:23]
Chris Fleming
Like, you gotta fill 45 minutes in a restaurant in Malden.
- [41:28]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. And you got. That's what it was.
- [41:30]
Chris Fleming
The fish is five.
- [41:31]
Marc Maron
The fish is totally five.
- [41:33]
Chris Fleming
I took five from him.
- [41:34]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah. That whole thing about, like. I remember the first time I did Politically Incorrect when Bill Maher had that show.
- [41:40]
Chris Fleming
Sure.
- [41:40]
Marc Maron
On Comedy Central.
- [41:41]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [41:42]
Marc Maron
And I said something, and I got a weird response from the audience, and I pointed at the sign that said Politically Incorrect. And Scott Carter came up to me and goes, hey, look. Bill points at the sign.
- [41:51]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, yeah. And Boston was very much like that. Like, even premises people were very, very.
- [41:57]
Marc Maron
That old guard was crazy. So you're in Stowe.
- [42:00]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [42:01]
Marc Maron
Just like a weird kid. I mean, how do you get from there to comedy? You just got the one sister.
- [42:09]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, I got a sister.
- [42:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [42:10]
Chris Fleming
18 months older.
- [42:11]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [42:12]
Chris Fleming
She was, like, valedictorian, salutatorian. Like, top of her class. And I was not very good.
- [42:17]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [42:17]
Chris Fleming
And my mom.
- [42:18]
Marc Maron
And you worked that all out with the Gale character. You brought all of your family garbage up into and sort of processed it.
- [42:27]
Chris Fleming
I'm sure it was incredibly healing. It's like some kind of therapy. I'm sure.
- [42:31]
Marc Maron
Yeah. To take on weird suburban New England.
- [42:35]
Chris Fleming
Yes. The fear.
- [42:36]
Marc Maron
And from living in it and then deconstructing it from the inside with the help with the people that were actually involved.
- [42:41]
Chris Fleming
How can that not be with my mother?
- [42:42]
Marc Maron
I know.
- [42:43]
Chris Fleming
I mean, it was. It made our relationship and neighbors incredible. Yeah.
- [42:47]
Marc Maron
Oh, it made your relationship incredible.
- [42:48]
Chris Fleming
Oh, yeah. Because I was imitating her to her, and she's. We're laughing about it.
- [42:52]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [42:53]
Chris Fleming
There were direct quotes. I mean, it was just. It was. It was beautiful.
- [42:56]
Marc Maron
So what did your dad do and what'd your family do? They work.
- [42:59]
Chris Fleming
They were both pharmacists.
- [43:00]
Marc Maron
Really?
- [43:01]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. They met at Northeastern.
- [43:02]
Marc Maron
Oh.
- [43:03]
Chris Fleming
My dad, he used to fit children into wheelchairs. And then he started a physical therapy company and then an in home infusion company for nurses. So it's always pharmacy medical.
- [43:15]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:16]
Chris Fleming
Very good guy. The best guy I've ever.
- [43:17]
Marc Maron
So you grew up comfortably in a world where you were able to do what you wanted to do.
- [43:21]
Chris Fleming
I was so encouraged by the community. I'm telling you, I was.
- [43:25]
Marc Maron
What? They all knew you because of what theater.
- [43:29]
Chris Fleming
I was very. You know how people talk about, like, not, like, wanting to be, like, I'm gonna prove you all wrong.
- [43:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [43:35]
Chris Fleming
For me, it's like, I don't want to let them down. Is the struggle have you? I think I should be bigger based on how much encouragement I was given.
- [43:42]
Marc Maron
Sure.
- [43:42]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [43:43]
Marc Maron
Well, they do too, I'm sure.
- [43:45]
Chris Fleming
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [43:47]
Marc Maron
Why aren't you on the. You know.
- [43:49]
Chris Fleming
I don't know.
- [43:49]
Marc Maron
Can't you just call the. No.
- [43:51]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. Why aren't you on old media?
- [43:54]
Marc Maron
Yeah, well, they're the only ones that still watch it.
- [43:57]
Chris Fleming
Well, that's the thing is like you impress your parents, friends by doing the things.
- [44:03]
Marc Maron
Yeah, sure. And I imagine when you did all those Gail shows, you had to tell a good number of 60 to 70 year old people where to see it.
- [44:11]
Chris Fleming
Totally.
- [44:13]
Marc Maron
How do we watch it? On the computer?
- [44:16]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, yeah. Is it on Chronicle?
- [44:19]
Marc Maron
But. So you were like kind of a notorious, talented, weird kid.
- [44:23]
Chris Fleming
I was a theater. I did theater.
- [44:25]
Marc Maron
Like community theater or just the high school.
- [44:27]
Chris Fleming
Just high school theater. And they let me ad lib in that. And my mom saw me ad libbing and she was like, oh, we gotta get you into comedy. And so she found an open mic. Yes, she found an open mic in Merrimack and it was a Broad Street Grill. And, and I, she, she was like, you got to do this. I wasn't a big stand up fan.
- [44:46]
Marc Maron
Merrimack, I feel like I performed there.
- [44:48]
Chris Fleming
I'm sure this had car seats in seats. It was okay. Yeah, it was a show run by Corey Manning and Chris Tabb and don't know them. Then I started doing stand up. I did.
- [44:58]
Marc Maron
So you did open mic.
- [44:59]
Chris Fleming
Yes. And then I.
- [45:01]
Marc Maron
What was it? What'd you do? Oh, I remember the first one.
- [45:04]
Chris Fleming
I remember dry heaving in the parking lot and I did a bit about how everyone.
- [45:08]
Marc Maron
Because you're so nervous.
- [45:09]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, yeah. I dry heaved for many years. I stopped Pandemic for some reason. Stopped dry heaving before shows.
- [45:14]
Marc Maron
Yeah. When everyone's sick, why should you be? That's very special.
- [45:18]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, I had a bit about how everyone loves to tell you about when they see deer, which is like the most suburban. You know, it's a 16 year old. Talking about that.
- [45:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
- [45:28]
Chris Fleming
And 16. I was 16 and then I. Then I didn't. Then I did it. Like I didn't really think about it again.
- [45:35]
Marc Maron
Was it traumatizing or was it a good experience?
- [45:37]
Chris Fleming
I loved it.
- [45:38]
Marc Maron
You got, you got laughed.
- [45:39]
Chris Fleming
Oh, yeah, yeah. I did very well.
- [45:41]
Marc Maron
Oh, really?
- [45:41]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, I worked on it really hard.
- [45:44]
Marc Maron
So the whole bit was just doing different people being excited about that.
- [45:47]
Chris Fleming
Yes. I was acting out a lot of people. I'm sure it was very Robin Williams derivative.
- [45:50]
Marc Maron
Yeah, no, it's not derivative. Just.
- [45:52]
Chris Fleming
Oh, no, no. The way I was doing it, riff style.
- [45:54]
Marc Maron
Oh, so you would watch Robin.
- [45:55]
Chris Fleming
Oh, so I saw my dad watching Mork and Mindy as a kindergarten when I was a kindergartner.
- [46:00]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [46:00]
Chris Fleming
And I said, oh, I wanted. The way he's making my dad laugh. I want to do it.
- [46:04]
Marc Maron
Well, I definitely noticed that in the standup that you do have a pace and a freedom of mind. And after a certain point, I'm like, so much of this can't be written.
- [46:12]
Chris Fleming
Oh, of course not. No, no, no.
- [46:15]
Marc Maron
That's pretty ballsy.
- [46:17]
Chris Fleming
Well, I'm too disorganized. I'm so disorganized.
- [46:19]
Marc Maron
But you have chunks, of course, you know, that have a little wiggle room in them.
- [46:24]
Chris Fleming
And I have bullet points that I have on a big easel. I'll show you.
- [46:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [46:27]
Chris Fleming
This is the easel that I have at Largo. I have it up. See, it's like stuff like. It's like that.
- [46:31]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. No, I have a lot of that kind of stuff. Yeah.
- [46:33]
Chris Fleming
Scribbles.
- [46:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [46:35]
Chris Fleming
But, yeah, then I. Then I called Rick Jenkins at the Comedy studio.
- [46:39]
Marc Maron
What year? 17, 16.
- [46:41]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. I was a senior. I didn't take it seriously until a friend. I had a friend who was a trumpet player, and he passed away in. In high school, and we weren't that close, but he. I mean, but he was a good trumpet player. Incredible. And the way he devoted himself to trumpet, he was. He could never hang out because he was always in a different group.
- [46:57]
Marc Maron
So you knew he was a gifted.
- [46:59]
Chris Fleming
Guy and he worked purpose.
- [47:00]
Marc Maron
Yes.
- [47:01]
Chris Fleming
And I wasn't. I was like, what do I have to fucking show?
- [47:03]
Marc Maron
You're just getting away with something.
- [47:04]
Chris Fleming
Exactly. I was like. I was like, kind of a dick.
- [47:07]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [47:07]
Chris Fleming
And I was just like. Kind of like, I didn't care. I was like.
- [47:10]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [47:10]
Chris Fleming
And then I was like, oh, shit. I'm like. It was probably like some.
- [47:14]
Marc Maron
Isn't that interesting that you do something, you commit to it, to the art, and that enables you, like, within standup, you can be undisciplined almost every way other than doing the standup. Oh, totally. And getting laughs. Those are the only two requirements, and I've said this a lot, that it's really on. You can choose, you can make, you know the territory on stage is yours.
- [47:42]
Chris Fleming
Yes.
- [47:42]
Marc Maron
And there's no rules to that.
- [47:44]
Chris Fleming
Yes.
- [47:44]
Marc Maron
It's just the context has a couple of rules. You gotta do your time and you gotta get the laughs. Everything else, who gives a fuck?
- [47:52]
Chris Fleming
But in that, I find that the second I start thinking I can skate on it or release a little bit and not, you know, work my fucking ass off to, like, write new material or something. That's when it starts getting kind of bad.
- [48:04]
Marc Maron
Oh, oh. Like skate on it. Like, you know, doing the same joke or repeat. Well, if you have the kind of mind that you have, you know, it also kind of dies through repetition.
- [48:15]
Chris Fleming
It's not fun. And they feel that. And it's so. And the way that we were taught at the comedy studio was you do have a five to seven minute set that you work on for. We were kind of.
- [48:25]
Marc Maron
It was the car show. Okay, so where'd you hear about the comedy studio? Cause that was when it was, like, at the Hong Kong.
- [48:29]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. I called every comedy club I could find. So, like, he passes a week after he passes, I'm like, I gotta get my shit together. I call, like, Dick Doherty. Nobody picks up. And then Rick Jenkins.
- [48:38]
Marc Maron
Dick Dougherty.
- [48:39]
Chris Fleming
Dick Dougherty. He doesn't pick up. And thank God. Jenkins was like, hello? And he picks up and he goes, oh, yeah, come by. And then he just took me, started booking me. And that's the guy who. Really.
- [48:49]
Marc Maron
And you're 17?
- [48:50]
Chris Fleming
Yes.
- [48:50]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [48:51]
Chris Fleming
And he's all about authenticity. It doesn't matter.
- [48:54]
Marc Maron
Interesting.
- [48:55]
Chris Fleming
If you're killing. What matters is if you're the journey to make an authentic voice. And so it was freaks, like Walsh brothers. This guy Robbie Rodstein. I was seeing people.
- [49:05]
Marc Maron
The Walsh brothers.
- [49:06]
Chris Fleming
Do you know the Walsh brothers? Yeah, these people were. I mean, it was wild.
- [49:09]
Marc Maron
Who else was there? Merman.
- [49:12]
Chris Fleming
I was after Eugene. Yeah, he was already in New York. Yeah. Aaron Judge. Mike Kaplan.
- [49:17]
Marc Maron
Mike Kaplan, Yeah, he's a very nice guy.
- [49:19]
Chris Fleming
Josh Gondelman. Oh, these guys are great.
- [49:21]
Marc Maron
Gondolman's great. I hear from Mike Kaplan every week. Every week?
- [49:24]
Chris Fleming
Oh, I get the monthlies. You get every week?
- [49:26]
Marc Maron
I get every week because I do a weekly newsletter, you know, that goes out to a mailing list that I write every week. Oh, cool. And I've almost become reliant on his. His reaction to it. He reads them religiously, and then the day after, he'll kind of break down what he thought was great.
- [49:43]
Chris Fleming
Well, he's like Hannibal Lecter like that. That's a guy who's doing wordplay. He's like. He's like, speaking in acrostic poems and stuff.
- [49:47]
Marc Maron
Yeah, well, he gets the poetry of what I'm doing there because I really write the thing. And he, you know, like, I'm almost writing for it for Mike Kaplan every week at this point.
- [49:58]
Chris Fleming
That's really sweet.
- [49:59]
Marc Maron
Yeah, we have that. That's our relationship.
- [50:01]
Chris Fleming
It's kind of romantic.
- [50:02]
Marc Maron
Yeah, a little bit.
- [50:03]
Chris Fleming
Oh, my God.
- [50:04]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [50:05]
Chris Fleming
But it was like Joe Wong. I don't know if you know Joe Wong. Dan Bollough.
- [50:08]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I know Joe Wong.
- [50:09]
Chris Fleming
Maggie McDonald. Just really, really fun. Shane Moss.
- [50:12]
Marc Maron
Shane, yeah. Was in. I didn't know he was at Boston.
- [50:16]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, we all. Yeah, we did.
- [50:19]
Marc Maron
He was like, you know, before he became an astronaut.
- [50:22]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [50:23]
Marc Maron
He was kind of an interesting comic.
- [50:25]
Chris Fleming
A psychonaut.
- [50:26]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, exactly. A Psychon.
- [50:27]
Chris Fleming
It's a journey into German.
- [50:29]
Marc Maron
He's still interesting, but he was kind of had a weird intensity to him starting out.
- [50:36]
Chris Fleming
There's a certain type of beard. You can tell when someone's doing ayahuasca a lot and they start using a font, a certain drippy font.
- [50:45]
Marc Maron
Ah. They've been journeying like, what was he doing? Wasn't he doing like ketamine? I think he had everything. Like a ketamine vape. Yeah. So he's like, you know. You know, every five minutes he was like blowing his brain open.
- [50:58]
Chris Fleming
I think he was eating Barbasol. I think it was just. I think it was. I think it was like, you know.
- [51:02]
Marc Maron
Your observations are good. That the poly bit is so fucking funny.
- [51:06]
Chris Fleming
Thanks, man. I get a lot of shit for that.
- [51:08]
Marc Maron
You do.
- [51:09]
Chris Fleming
That's the thing where, yeah. People.
- [51:11]
Marc Maron
But I think it seems to me that, you know, you present as nebulous enough.
- [51:15]
Chris Fleming
Thank you.
- [51:16]
Marc Maron
That they, they're. They can't hang anything on it.
- [51:19]
Chris Fleming
Well, see, that's part of, that's part, that's part of the, you know, you leave no footprints about.
- [51:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And they never know. Well, they can't attach a point of view to you around that stuff. So I can't imagine what the criticism.
- [51:31]
Chris Fleming
I'm an imp in the wind.
- [51:32]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Is that the next special?
- [51:35]
Chris Fleming
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what to name it. I don't know what to name it. I wanted to do a special.
- [51:40]
Marc Maron
What kind of shoe do you get for the poly bit?
- [51:41]
Chris Fleming
Oh, it's mostly just from poly guys in three piece suits wearing the vest. The vest.
- [51:48]
Marc Maron
That's always been the thing about like the old school swingers. It's like, who would want to hang out with them? There's nothing. They don't seem that interesting.
- [51:58]
Chris Fleming
Right, Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean. Okay, so, you know, I don't know.
- [52:03]
Marc Maron
It's all right.
- [52:04]
Chris Fleming
I try not to, I. I try not to offend. I don't want To. I do not want to offend, but I think you're.
- [52:10]
Marc Maron
You're. Because I get most of your points of reference and, you know, that's not always the case. Like, you do have a wheelhouse of. Of life experiences and kind of geography of reference that, like. I like it.
- [52:25]
Chris Fleming
Thank you.
- [52:26]
Marc Maron
Somehow or another, it seems like some of them are a little older than you, but not that old. Like, you know, the Phil Collins thing. But I guess that was your childhood.
- [52:34]
Chris Fleming
I am obsessed with Phil Collins.
- [52:36]
Marc Maron
Really?
- [52:36]
Chris Fleming
Oh, I love Phil Collins. Oh, my God.
- [52:39]
Marc Maron
Really?
- [52:39]
Chris Fleming
You know, so at the Comedy Studio, I used to. Before the shows, I would go to the bookstore and I would.
- [52:45]
Marc Maron
Harvard.
- [52:46]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. And I would look through all the musician autobiographies.
- [52:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:49]
Chris Fleming
And I'd be. And I'd look pictures of Mick Jagger and all these people. Stevie. I'm like, that's what I want to bring to comedy. And I don't know how. And it was frustrating.
- [52:59]
Marc Maron
Stevie who? Nicks.
- [53:00]
Chris Fleming
Stevie Nicks and Nick Jagger, Tom Wade, all these people. I was like, these are the people that I want.
- [53:04]
Marc Maron
It's quite a spectrum.
- [53:05]
Chris Fleming
I want this to be. I want to bring this to this little stage. I don't quite know how yet.
- [53:09]
Marc Maron
Yeah. So have you done it?
- [53:12]
Chris Fleming
I'm getting there.
- [53:13]
Marc Maron
So when you start with Rick, like, what was the nature of the comedy? Because it's crazy, because you do have chops and you started when you were 16. It's crazy.
- [53:22]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. It's been like 21 years. Something.
- [53:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [53:25]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. Thank you for that, by the way. It's very sweet. It was the nature of the comedy. It was less physical, but it was like. Gale was a character that I was doing on stage.
- [53:39]
Marc Maron
So you do a lot of characters?
- [53:40]
Chris Fleming
I was doing a lot of characters. Yeah. I would have a short setup. Yeah. And Rick would always say, like, you know, the setup, but they don't. So you gotta make it clear, you know. And like. So funny.
- [53:50]
Marc Maron
I knew him when he was a comic.
- [53:52]
Chris Fleming
Tell me about that.
- [53:54]
Marc Maron
Well, you know, he wore. I believe he wore a vest.
- [53:57]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. Oh, he wears suits.
- [53:58]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Like, it was always a suit thing.
- [54:00]
Chris Fleming
Yes.
- [54:01]
Marc Maron
And he, you know, he was himself. He was mild mannered. I wouldn't say he was a killer. And he did.
- [54:07]
Chris Fleming
He is the best host. The way that he would fall on the sword for us and the way he would. He made us all sound like we were the funniest, most famous comedian in the world.
- [54:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [54:16]
Chris Fleming
Like.
- [54:16]
Marc Maron
Well, I like that. He set up this workshop space, a.
- [54:20]
Chris Fleming
Haven for freaky stuff. Yeah.
- [54:22]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [54:23]
Chris Fleming
And it was the norm there, so that's why it didn't feel weird.
- [54:27]
Marc Maron
But it wasn't the norm in Boston.
- [54:29]
Chris Fleming
Not at all.
- [54:29]
Marc Maron
You know, when I was coming up, you know, I was one of, you know, out of, you know, Cross and Garofalo and some of these other people, I was out there doing the Nick's satellite rooms.
- [54:39]
Chris Fleming
I don't know if the Colony stop us. That's a scary spot.
- [54:41]
Marc Maron
Sure. But I wanted to work. Of course, you know, but there were some guys that, you know, could not. They could only do what they did. They couldn't make the adjustment.
- [54:52]
Chris Fleming
Exactly.
- [54:53]
Marc Maron
To do rural rooms.
- [54:54]
Chris Fleming
This is.
- [54:55]
Marc Maron
I'm not thrilled that I did. I think, like, when I watch you, I'm like, you know, I've got a free spirit in me, but somehow I've held it down.
- [55:02]
Chris Fleming
No, no, but you're doing. What you're doing is poetic.
- [55:06]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [55:07]
Chris Fleming
That's the comedy of it.
- [55:08]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [55:09]
Chris Fleming
And that's. So that's not Torres.
- [55:11]
Marc Maron
I feel like I don't take as many. Like, I'm afraid to get too far out of myself, out of fear. I won't get back. Whoa.
- [55:22]
Chris Fleming
Where do you think you would go?
- [55:24]
Marc Maron
I don't know, man. I'm barely holding on. I don't want to go flying too much.
- [55:32]
Chris Fleming
I'm that way about. But I insulate. And this is what I did in Boston. I insulated myself at the Comedy Studio. I knew that if I went. I opened for Gary and Goldman. Yeah. On the road for a little bit. And it was. It was very challenging, like.
- [55:46]
Marc Maron
But his audience are sweet people.
- [55:48]
Chris Fleming
They are now.
- [55:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Oh, this was.
- [55:49]
Chris Fleming
This was the improv in Schomburg.
- [55:51]
Marc Maron
And, you know, I had one of the worst nights of my life at that improv.
- [55:54]
Chris Fleming
The same.
- [55:55]
Marc Maron
Was it. Was it half full?
- [55:56]
Chris Fleming
No, it was full.
- [55:57]
Marc Maron
Oh, so he already had a name for himself.
- [55:59]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, it was after Last comic Standing in stuff.
- [56:00]
Marc Maron
Okay. Oh, all right.
- [56:01]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, yeah.
- [56:02]
Marc Maron
Oh, no. Yeah. So what happened?
- [56:04]
Chris Fleming
Oh, they did not. They only wanted me to degrade myself to be like, can you believe I look like that? It's that kind of thing. And that's how I feel with crowd, like. And that's why I'm trying to. I try to be.
- [56:13]
Marc Maron
Cause you're sensitive to them going, what the fuck is this guy? I hate when you hear like, you're gonna pander to that.
- [56:19]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. To survive. Especially. Especially as I. When I was younger, I tried to avoid that. I tried to go to places where people.
- [56:26]
Marc Maron
Because it's nothing but trauma.
- [56:28]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. Yeah.
- [56:29]
Marc Maron
You're Traumatizing yourself.
- [56:30]
Chris Fleming
Well, and you see, comma. And this is. This is a question I had for you, actually. It's like how as someone who's had a fan base for yourself for so long.
- [56:38]
Marc Maron
Not that long. Fifteen years since the podcast. Yeah. And it took a while to build the standup fan base out of that.
- [56:46]
Chris Fleming
I see.
- [56:47]
Marc Maron
You know, like, it was never, Like, I was always visible, but it never manifests. It never meant that I could draw. Like, you know, I was on Conan all the time.
- [56:58]
Chris Fleming
Right.
- [56:58]
Marc Maron
But it didn't equate selling tickets.
- [57:01]
Chris Fleming
Isn't that wild how it comes to you doing your own thing to really get the people to come?
- [57:05]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Out of complete desperation, you think it's.
- [57:07]
Chris Fleming
Gonna be being a guest on something or something, and then it's you. Yeah, but how important do you find it to. Cause you can live within that, and I did for a while.
- [57:16]
Marc Maron
Live within what?
- [57:17]
Chris Fleming
Your own audience. But then it's almost like building an inside joke.
- [57:21]
Marc Maron
Well, that's why, like, I've always. For some dumb reason, you go to a comedy store. Sure. Well, it's not. I know why I do it. It's not a dumb reason. But I grew up with the work ethic of, you know, doing as many sets as you can. Right. And then, you know, once I started to get my people, I was like, well, you still gotta make just regular, you know, audiences. Wow.
- [57:43]
Chris Fleming
And that. So that's. That is the. That is what I'm trying to do more of now.
- [57:47]
Marc Maron
Well, that's how you keep in shape, and it gives.
- [57:50]
Chris Fleming
You need them to have an access point as opposed to just.
- [57:52]
Marc Maron
Oh, right.
- [57:53]
Chris Fleming
So that's the stress, what I struggle with sometimes.
- [57:55]
Marc Maron
Like, how do they get in?
- [57:56]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. Like, I don't do great benefit shows.
- [57:58]
Marc Maron
Yeah, No, I don't either.
- [58:00]
Chris Fleming
Okay, okay. Okay. That's good.
- [58:02]
Marc Maron
Like, my instinct is always sort of like, how come I'm not on that thing. Right, right. Of course.
- [58:07]
Chris Fleming
That's every comedian.
- [58:08]
Marc Maron
Right. But then when I really think about it, it's like, because you're gonna be anxious. Like, I did the best example of that. You know, they had me on Comics Come Home, the last one that they did at the Garden, you know, I.
- [58:19]
Chris Fleming
Saw that and I wondered what that experience was like for you.
- [58:22]
Marc Maron
Well, I know. I know how to do. I can take my act, my hour and a half or whatever and go like, all right, well, this one has a strong. There's a definite punchline there.
- [58:32]
Chris Fleming
Right.
- [58:32]
Marc Maron
This one, I can just do this one. This one lands good.
- [58:35]
Chris Fleming
Right.
- [58:35]
Marc Maron
And put together, 10 minutes. That will do that thing.
- [58:38]
Chris Fleming
And for a space like that, it comes down to rhythmic, right?
- [58:41]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah, it comes down to jokes. Yeah. Because you gotta wait.
- [58:45]
Chris Fleming
Oh. Because it's like a. Yeah, yeah.
- [58:47]
Marc Maron
It's so big.
- [58:48]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [58:49]
Marc Maron
But that whole. But the fucking problem was that was like, I've told that story before, but, like, I'm thinking, like, well, I'm a guy now. You know, I did that. I did, like, the second comics come home, and I've done one other one, and, you know, I know all those guys, and I know everybody, and I'm like, you know, one of the first sets I ever did guest spots when I was coming up was at Nick's after Leary, who just leveled the place. And I still remember bombing. I still remember how badly I bombed after that.
- [59:15]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [59:16]
Marc Maron
And now I'm, like, coming back to Boston.
- [59:18]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [59:19]
Marc Maron
You know, Larry's hosting.
- [59:20]
Chris Fleming
The Return to Boston is always loaded.
- [59:22]
Marc Maron
Totally. Because for me, even with New York, it's like returning to the site of the trauma. It's like. It's triggering.
- [59:30]
Chris Fleming
Of course. Of course.
- [59:31]
Marc Maron
So I'm like. I'm excited. I'm like, great. 10 minutes. Can't lose the garden, you know, a bunch of people. I'll be fine.
- [59:38]
Chris Fleming
You thought can't lose.
- [59:39]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [59:39]
Chris Fleming
There's so many ways you could lose.
- [59:41]
Marc Maron
Not really. Not unless I fall into myself.
- [59:43]
Chris Fleming
Okay. Okay.
- [59:45]
Marc Maron
That's how you lose, is when you're up there and your inner self goes like, I'm gonna take a break. So then there's this shell of you up there.
- [59:56]
Chris Fleming
You're gonna go to a bird's eye. I love going to the bird's eye. I spend most of my life at 30,000ft.
- [60:00]
Marc Maron
Really?
- [60:01]
Chris Fleming
Oh, yeah. I'm so dissociated.
- [60:03]
Marc Maron
Stay connected, I say.
- [60:04]
Chris Fleming
You know what I say before I go on? I say, I'm here. I hold onto walls. I literally say out loud, I'm here. I need to place myself.
- [60:10]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's good. Like, you know, drop the water bottle on the floor.
- [60:14]
Chris Fleming
Oh, I haven't done that.
- [60:15]
Marc Maron
Or, like, if I'm on stage. Yeah. Any of that. I slap my legs, you know, a lot of times, you know, I'm at war with a cord. You seem to be comfortable with cordless. I insist on the cord.
- [60:24]
Chris Fleming
No, no, I insist on the cord now because I love the danger of it.
- [60:26]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
- [60:27]
Chris Fleming
It adds a heightened thing.
- [60:28]
Marc Maron
Sure.
- [60:28]
Chris Fleming
Where they're kind of like.
- [60:29]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And it's the way it used to be.
- [60:31]
Chris Fleming
It looks so much better. The big fucking mic.
- [60:33]
Marc Maron
The Worst you look. Can't get them in the stand. Oh, it's the worst. You gotta get away from those. I'm glad you have.
- [60:38]
Chris Fleming
Oh, me too.
- [60:39]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah.
- [60:40]
Chris Fleming
That's a big. That's a big.
- [60:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. That's like.
- [60:42]
Chris Fleming
Only in the last year that I realized that.
- [60:43]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. A 58 on a stick with a wire.
- [60:45]
Chris Fleming
And also if I trip over the cord, that's.
- [60:47]
Marc Maron
That's fine.
- [60:47]
Chris Fleming
That's great.
- [60:48]
Marc Maron
It's gold, so. But here's what happens at the Garden.
- [60:51]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, sorry.
- [60:51]
Marc Maron
He's. We're backstage and he's going through the order, and there's 15 people on there, and I'm not hearing my name. He keeps going. And then the. The. The. The words you never want to hear is like, all right, it's going to be Bobby Kelly, then Mike, you never want to hear it's going to be Bobby Kelly. And then your name. And then Burr will close it out. And I'm no diva, but I'm like, what do I gotta. He's gonna make a mess of the place.
- [61:18]
Chris Fleming
He's gonna make a mess. You mean, like, he's not. What do you mean, make a mess?
- [61:22]
Marc Maron
He's great. I love Bobby, but.
- [61:23]
Chris Fleming
He's gonna make a mess.
- [61:24]
Marc Maron
But it's like, you know, he's from there. It's gonna be filthy as fuck. And I've prepared a thoughtful 10 minutes.
- [61:30]
Chris Fleming
He's gonna do Matty in the Morning style material.
- [61:33]
Marc Maron
He's a very sweet, honest comedian, Bobby, and he kills. But I just knew it's just gonna be this symp. And again, I don't have any problem with that. I just don't want to have to be the cleanup guy.
- [61:47]
Chris Fleming
No, no, no, no. You don't want to then come on.
- [61:51]
Marc Maron
And be like, I have to bring him back in. No, but I did.
- [61:54]
Chris Fleming
Because you're kind of professorial, too. I did.
- [61:55]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And I did it, and it was fine.
- [61:58]
Chris Fleming
How'd you sage the space? How did you reset it?
- [62:01]
Marc Maron
I. Well, it was good.
- [62:05]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [62:05]
Marc Maron
Yeah, it was good.
- [62:06]
Chris Fleming
Okay.
- [62:06]
Marc Maron
Yeah. It was, you know, that instinctual thing of sort of like, you know, you gotta think on your feet to. Yeah, that's what he's listening so intently.
- [62:13]
Chris Fleming
To what he's saying.
- [62:14]
Marc Maron
He's got 10 seconds.
- [62:14]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [62:15]
Marc Maron
To fucking land the thing. Pete Davidson had been on earlier, and he did a whole 10 minutes about trying to get his mom laid, you know. Cause she hadn't had sex since his dad died in 9. 11. And then, like, it gets a little weird, and he says, I might have to do it, but whatever. It landed okay. But it's just. It was all about getting his mom laid.
- [62:33]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. Incest isn't gonna land too great in Boston.
- [62:35]
Marc Maron
No. But then, like, you know, he's in the middle of the show, and then, like, you know, Bobby does his thing, and it was big. It was huge. He killed. And I got out there and I said, I always like coming back to Boston, you know, hanging out with old friends. And it's not confirmed, but I'm pretty sure I'm gonna fuck Pete's mom.
- [62:50]
Chris Fleming
Great. See, that's great.
- [62:51]
Marc Maron
It killed.
- [62:52]
Chris Fleming
See, that's. You're there. You're placing yourself. I've been listening, too. They think that's cute.
- [62:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
- [62:59]
Chris Fleming
When you said that, then Bill Burr went after you.
- [63:01]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [63:02]
Chris Fleming
A time that I. I went up.
- [63:04]
Marc Maron
To Bill and I said, why? Why? Why don't you. You fucking follow Bobby. And he goes, I want to follow Bobby.
- [63:13]
Chris Fleming
This is showcase shows. And this. They freak me out so much.
- [63:16]
Marc Maron
It's hard. If you're insecure, it's a peace thing. But if you're insecure at all and you can't. Like, I've never been able to get to that point where it doesn't matter. Like, I'm always like, who's on before me?
- [63:26]
Chris Fleming
Of course.
- [63:27]
Marc Maron
And then I'm like, fuck, of course. But most. You know, a lot of guys, maybe they're pretending, maybe they're not. They're just go do their thing. But I know my thing. Like, sometimes it's not gonna work right away.
- [63:39]
Chris Fleming
Well, and you hear them laughing at things, and you're like, oh, they would never laugh at this then.
- [63:43]
Marc Maron
Yeah, that's. Absolutely. Even if people come in the dressing room and they say, great crowd. I'm like, ah, fuck.
- [63:49]
Chris Fleming
I'd almost rather be a great crowd.
- [63:51]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Like, they're a little hard. And then you're like, oh, pressure's off. Everyone's having a hard time.
- [63:56]
Chris Fleming
We're all fucked. When I, Bill Byrd, though, that was one of those times where, you know when you think. Because it all comes down to decibels, as a comic, it's all who can make the room the loudest. And when I saw Bill Burr at Motley's Comedy Club, the sound that he got.
- [64:10]
Marc Maron
Where was that place that was in.
- [64:12]
Chris Fleming
Faneuil hall for briefly, like, 2006, 2009.
- [64:14]
Marc Maron
Was that some version of the connection?
- [64:17]
Chris Fleming
It was near to where the connection was.
- [64:19]
Marc Maron
Oh, really?
- [64:19]
Chris Fleming
Okay.
- [64:20]
Marc Maron
2006, 2009.
- [64:21]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, it was fun. It was. You Know like a little club.
- [64:24]
Marc Maron
Okay. So you see Burr there and the.
- [64:26]
Chris Fleming
Sound he was getting, it was like. Oh, noted. Okay. This is like. I thought I was doing well on stage and I was like, oh, this is how loud a room could get. And then you hear how loud a room. Room can get and you're like, oh, I got a ways to go.
- [64:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah, if that's what you want to do. Like, I've convinced myself that that's not the most important thing.
- [64:40]
Chris Fleming
See that. Yeah. Is connection the most important thing? Yes, yes.
- [64:45]
Marc Maron
Yeah, connection. But like. And I've. But see, I think that's really just me still functioning out of a certain amount of insecurity. Like, I do have something that still.
- [64:55]
Chris Fleming
Holds me back, but it's not because the people that were hitting really high decibels often stay right.
- [65:02]
Marc Maron
Of course he didn't, he's. No, he didn't.
- [65:05]
Chris Fleming
No, no, no, no.
- [65:06]
Marc Maron
But now I'm doing a bit about evacuating with my cats. And it's just one of the. Because I know I have the chops to do it where it's just a buildy, buildy, buildy. Laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh.
- [65:14]
Chris Fleming
Talk about a name for a special is evacuating with my cats.
- [65:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah, that might be it.
- [65:20]
Chris Fleming
Why beat around the bush?
- [65:21]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I've experimented with the idea of like, I was on the phone with my friend Sam, you know, and I. I'm a catastrophic thinker and full of anxiety and I'm just always kind of worked up and now I'm old and I'm talking to my friend Sam and I'm like, dude, I can't. I just want to fucking take it easy. And then he says, well, there's the special Marc Maron Taking it easy.
- [65:47]
Chris Fleming
And it's you in like a Tommy Bahamas shirt on the beach with a Corona. Yeah, well, that non alcoholic gorilla.
- [65:53]
Marc Maron
But that's what. I think. That'd be a funny, ironic title.
- [65:56]
Chris Fleming
I think that's great.
- [65:57]
Marc Maron
But. But anyway, so Wendy or I want.
- [66:01]
Chris Fleming
To be Taking it easy is also good.
- [66:03]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [66:03]
Chris Fleming
I talk about this with comedian friends. There's this El Dorado thing and we can do this and then relax, you can hit the eject button. And I don't think that ever. I don't know.
- [66:12]
Marc Maron
On stage.
- [66:13]
Chris Fleming
No, no, no.
- [66:14]
Marc Maron
In life.
- [66:14]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [66:15]
Marc Maron
Well, there is something in my brain that like, I don't know why, but there is this idea of like, well, when do we retire?
- [66:21]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, right, right.
- [66:23]
Marc Maron
And, well, because of my anxiety, the responsibility of it becomes a little much, but everything becomes Erased with a new bit. You know, like every anxiety, every. You know, any sort of like, I don't know if I got another hour in me. As soon as you get that new chunk, you're like, oh, okay.
- [66:38]
Chris Fleming
Electric.
- [66:39]
Marc Maron
Here we go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [66:41]
Chris Fleming
Oh, that's the best feeling.
- [66:42]
Marc Maron
Only if it's a chunk with jokes. Like, you know, I get bored of jokes. Right.
- [66:45]
Chris Fleming
I call it a run. That's what I call. Because you feel like you're just bum, bum, bum.
- [66:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [66:50]
Chris Fleming
A ten minute thing.
- [66:52]
Marc Maron
So how do you start working?
- [66:53]
Chris Fleming
I drink a caffeinated drink. I drive around the Rose bowl and I think, oh, yeah.
- [67:00]
Marc Maron
But I mean, like at the beginning. So you're doing the Comedy Studio.
- [67:05]
Chris Fleming
Oh, sorry.
- [67:05]
Marc Maron
And you're learning and you're going to these clubs in Boston. So when does the work start? Like, here's money.
- [67:12]
Chris Fleming
Oh, oh, oh.
- [67:14]
Marc Maron
How do you like. When.
- [67:15]
Chris Fleming
Okay, I started taking them. I started doing. I would take the Fenghua bus to do bringer shows. The Phong Wall bus was a Chinatown bus for like $5 that you could take from Boston to New York.
- [67:27]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [67:27]
Chris Fleming
I would do the. With the old improv. I would do bringer shows.
- [67:30]
Marc Maron
Wait, on the really old one or the one the.
- [67:33]
Chris Fleming
That is now the Broadway comedy club.
- [67:35]
Marc Maron
Oh, so not the original. Not the 44th Street. Because I knew that was going before you started.
- [67:39]
Chris Fleming
This was like 53rd.
- [67:40]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [67:40]
Chris Fleming
And I.
- [67:41]
Marc Maron
In the basement.
- [67:42]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [67:42]
Marc Maron
That big echoey shit room.
- [67:43]
Chris Fleming
Yes. It's like a church basement feeling. Yeah, the worst. Yeah, that's. I got. I got signed to an agent there and then I did through like so many auditions. I did hbo. Did you ever do the Aspen Comedy Festival?
- [67:56]
Marc Maron
Yes, many times. I did New Faces, so that must have been one of the last ones.
- [68:00]
Chris Fleming
It was the last one. 07.
- [68:02]
Marc Maron
Okay.
- [68:02]
Chris Fleming
Winter 07.
- [68:03]
Marc Maron
So you're there having a hard time breathing with a bunch of other.
- [68:05]
Chris Fleming
They gave us oxygen back.
- [68:07]
Marc Maron
Sure. Yeah. Finally they figured that out.
- [68:08]
Chris Fleming
It was me. Mulaney.
- [68:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [68:10]
Chris Fleming
Eric Andre.
- [68:12]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [68:12]
Chris Fleming
And all these people. And I was younger, so I. I wasn't.
- [68:14]
Marc Maron
Don't want to follow Eric Andre.
- [68:16]
Chris Fleming
No, you do not. Luckily he was in a different group. Or Mulaney.
- [68:19]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [68:20]
Chris Fleming
Or any of those people. I did not thrive there. I wasn't ready.
- [68:24]
Marc Maron
No.
- [68:25]
Chris Fleming
I got heckled. I didn't know how to handle with a handle ahead.
- [68:27]
Marc Maron
Not great audiences. It's like, it's.
- [68:29]
Chris Fleming
They're incredibly wealthy in furs.
- [68:30]
Marc Maron
All industry with like, you know, some locals and then just, you know, rich People who are like, what's going on tonight? Yeah. And there's a thing in town, and.
- [68:37]
Chris Fleming
The locals in a mountain town are out of their minds, you know?
- [68:40]
Marc Maron
Yeah. So it was hard.
- [68:41]
Chris Fleming
It's like homophobic people with belly button rings.
- [68:44]
Marc Maron
So you do that and then what do you start doing standup sets for? Money.
- [68:49]
Chris Fleming
So then I. Then I would summer. I went to Skidmore College in upstate New York. Then I would spend the summer in New York.
- [68:57]
Marc Maron
Little liberal arts college.
- [68:58]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [69:00]
Marc Maron
Okay.
- [69:00]
Chris Fleming
And then I would go to New York in the summer.
- [69:02]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [69:03]
Chris Fleming
Mulaney was really helpful getting me spots, but I. I was. Then I decided to just work at the Antenna Loft. I was like. I worked at. I was like, working as, like a.
- [69:13]
Marc Maron
The what?
- [69:14]
Chris Fleming
Ann Taylor Loft in.
- [69:15]
Marc Maron
Oh, okay.
- [69:16]
Chris Fleming
Women's clothing store. I worked there in Times Square. I just. I was doing standup. Like, I would do, like, I would not get that many shows.
- [69:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [69:24]
Chris Fleming
And then I went back to college and I didn't. I would perform at Skidmore. I'd open for people.
- [69:29]
Marc Maron
So these are dark summers at the Ann Taylor Loft.
- [69:31]
Chris Fleming
Fun summers at the end. Taylor. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was like, yeah. I don't think I really fully tackled stand up then again until after college. And then I was like, oh, shit.
- [69:43]
Marc Maron
Now you gotta walk in. Yeah.
- [69:44]
Chris Fleming
And I still wasn't. I mean, I wasn't really getting. I did a year in Boston again after I graduated and was doing the studio and then eventually got signed to management company who was like, you got to move to la. And then I moved.
- [69:55]
Marc Maron
What company is that?
- [69:57]
Chris Fleming
New Wave? Yeah, yeah, it was. They wanted me to do Last Comic Standing, and I said, they're just going to play circus music underneath me. I know I'm. That's not going to go well.
- [70:05]
Marc Maron
You can bring your own circus music.
- [70:06]
Chris Fleming
I could get ahead of it.
- [70:07]
Marc Maron
Yeah. That seemed like the right.
- [70:11]
Chris Fleming
You know, that's what they would do for me is like they would show crickets and.
- [70:14]
Marc Maron
Well, that's the thing about, you know, having a unique talent, is that, you know, the outside world is gonna, you know, box you in as a freak.
- [70:25]
Chris Fleming
That's a freak.
- [70:26]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [70:26]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [70:27]
Marc Maron
And I don't think that's your destiny, I think, to be that.
- [70:32]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, yeah. You don't know. So then.
- [70:34]
Marc Maron
Because then if you're not self possessed, you know, you'll play to that.
- [70:41]
Chris Fleming
And I would. And I would play that.
- [70:43]
Marc Maron
That's the Goleman thing.
- [70:44]
Chris Fleming
If I would, if I had to, to survive, I would play that. That. Yeah.
- [70:47]
Marc Maron
So you figured out a way to protect yourself and your art.
- [70:50]
Chris Fleming
And then through Gail, I started getting my own following, and that's when I really started actually being able to not have other jobs.
- [70:56]
Marc Maron
So. So the Gail thing. So you were using that as a launching point for your standup.
- [71:02]
Chris Fleming
I was doing that as hoping to sell that show to the industry, but that did not happen. The industry did not care. And so.
- [71:09]
Marc Maron
And the industry was changing by that point. So you were sort of at the ground level of maybe being able to monetize. Just doing it on YouTube. But not quite.
- [71:16]
Chris Fleming
Exactly. And I didn't monetize it because I thought it was kind of slutty to have ads on.
- [71:20]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [71:20]
Chris Fleming
So I didn't have ads on.
- [71:21]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [71:21]
Chris Fleming
So I would just tour. We would.
- [71:23]
Marc Maron
But did you see it at that time as a means to do stand up? Was that still what you were looking for, or were you already starting to think in terms of film and sketch and all that stuff?
- [71:34]
Chris Fleming
I was trying to get into acting and stuff through that. I was hoping to do that.
- [71:37]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [71:38]
Chris Fleming
And I would do stand up still. Of course.
- [71:41]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [71:41]
Chris Fleming
But I was. I would do, like, college gigs for money and stuff. But, like, I didn't really start when I ended Gail. I would tour. I tour the Gail show as a. With my family and stuff.
- [71:50]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [71:50]
Chris Fleming
And then I stopped doing that, and that's when I started getting. Using that fan base to tour stand Up.
- [71:55]
Marc Maron
But. But you were still. During the Gale period is when you were. Because he seemed to be making a lot of music videos.
- [72:01]
Chris Fleming
That was after.
- [72:02]
Marc Maron
That was after.
- [72:02]
Chris Fleming
That was after. Yeah. This was like 2012.
- [72:04]
Marc Maron
So Gail kind of got you proficient in producing visual stuff.
- [72:09]
Chris Fleming
Yes, that's right.
- [72:10]
Marc Maron
And then you just kind of ran with that.
- [72:11]
Chris Fleming
That's right. And then I loved making music. I make songs with this guy, Brian Hevron Smith, who did music with me for Gale. And we would start making these songs together. And that was the next. And I was trying to. Again, my mom was like, chris, if you don't drop this Gale character, that's all anyone's gonna know you as. So you gotta start doing.
- [72:30]
Marc Maron
Mom's like your manager.
- [72:32]
Chris Fleming
She's incredible. She's like, you gotta get back. You gotta. People that need to know you can do stand up so they don't think of you as some kind of Internet hag.
- [72:38]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah.
- [72:39]
Chris Fleming
Because especially then there was, like, a stigma. And I'm like, yeah, okay, fine. I'll go back to stand up. So. And so I was trying to find a way back to feeling okay. Out of that character. That character helped break down a lot of barriers for myself, by the way.
- [72:52]
Marc Maron
Sure. But where does all the. Like. I guess what I don't always understand is how things come together, and I don't think there's any explanation to it, because even when you do the music video parodies or you use puppets or the font of the credits and all that stuff, is that all impulsive or is that groupthink or is it all you?
- [73:11]
Chris Fleming
It's all impulsive. Yeah. I just follow impulses. I don't think too much about it.
- [73:16]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah, you follow weird impulses, but then you just go all the way down the hole with them.
- [73:21]
Chris Fleming
Oh, yeah.
- [73:21]
Marc Maron
It's usually the nail quiver thing. I don't even know where that comes from or how you could come up with that and be like, I'm gonna commit to this.
- [73:28]
Chris Fleming
Wow, you did a deep dive, Mar. I appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate this. I think a lot of it is, like, it's first thought and then just burrow into that.
- [73:40]
Marc Maron
Because for me, first thought, it's like, okay, that's pretty good. But then it's like, I'm gonna spend, what, a week?
- [73:45]
Chris Fleming
Well, you need to. This is why you need to do it fast. So you do it before you doubt it.
- [73:50]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [73:50]
Chris Fleming
That's what I would.
- [73:51]
Marc Maron
You got a pretty good. Seems like you got a pretty big window there. My window is very small.
- [73:55]
Chris Fleming
I mean, that's why they're so shittily produced. A lot of times I have to do it incredibly fast, but before I'm like, this isn't funny.
- [74:00]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're. They're what produced.
- [74:03]
Chris Fleming
This is why I have to produce it so fast. That's why they're shittily produced. It's very sl. Fat.
- [74:07]
Marc Maron
Yeah. But that adds to the effect, and that's just.
- [74:09]
Chris Fleming
It's accidental.
- [74:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [74:12]
Chris Fleming
People tell me, like, oh, we love how shitty this is made. I'm like, oh, I thought that was the best. Oh, I thought it was. I thought that was pretty well done.
- [74:18]
Marc Maron
But even in the fucking, like. I guess. I don't know. I. I guess it's just because it's not, you know, the way I think or. Or like, what I. I do creatively, but, like, you know, not. Not just like dipiglio, which seems to be a recurring theme because it seems to have started with a Chihuahua or something because you. You bring it back.
- [74:42]
Chris Fleming
I was chased by a Chihuahua.
- [74:44]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [74:44]
Chris Fleming
At a distance.
- [74:45]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you taught. You tell the story in your stand up but then I realized after watching the stand up that dipiglia was the monster version, the monster movie version of the Chihuahua.
- [74:55]
Chris Fleming
It's how I perceived the Chihuahua.
- [74:58]
Marc Maron
Yeah, but you're not afraid of puppetry, which I think is good.
- [75:02]
Chris Fleming
Oh, I love puppetry.
- [75:04]
Marc Maron
Even in this special, that fucking weird.
- [75:06]
Chris Fleming
Thing that the theatre bavas. Yeah, yeah, Hideous.
- [75:11]
Marc Maron
You're talking about it like it's a real thing.
- [75:12]
Chris Fleming
We had to cover them in like a lotion to make them wet. Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [75:17]
Marc Maron
But to do that in the special, because, like, when I first started the special, it was like, oh, he did a whole hour. That's so rare. But then all of a sudden I realized it's a multimedia event. Not that I lost respect in any way.
- [75:32]
Chris Fleming
The way that you're using the term event in cursive today. I really like it. Packs a wallop. I'll tell you this, though, this experience with that special, that blew with hell. Yeah. I don't know if you felt this with your first legit special or whatever. I felt like I had to do an inversion of what a special is. I felt like I had to be like I had to flex the freak, kind of. And now that I've put that out with all that crazy, the puppetry and all that stuff and all the choices, now I'm feeling freer. I've always felt kind of a.
- [76:09]
Marc Maron
Well, you do a lot of things. So your special was gonna engage all of your things for, like, I'm of the school. It's sort of like you can't really reinvent the special.
- [76:18]
Chris Fleming
No, no, you can, you can, you can't.
- [76:21]
Marc Maron
But you can barely invert it.
- [76:22]
Chris Fleming
The only time I think you can.
- [76:23]
Marc Maron
It'S straight stand up special, you know, which is not exactly what you do. But the only time I saw it successfully inverted and no one talks about it, and they should, is that last Adam Sandler special that Safdie directed.
- [76:36]
Chris Fleming
Oh, the one that was shot in Glendale?
- [76:38]
Marc Maron
Yes.
- [76:38]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, yeah.
- [76:39]
Marc Maron
He. He inverted the straight stand completely.
- [76:42]
Chris Fleming
With the fuck ups and everything.
- [76:43]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. Because I really don't think he knew what was coming. I think he trusted Josh to like. I've not talked to either of them, but it really seems to me that Josh was like, you know, just trust me, you know, and all of a sudden there's a dog in the room.
- [76:57]
Chris Fleming
Right. I'm sure the Safdies are shaking the building outside. These guys are wild.
- [77:01]
Marc Maron
They knew that Adam could do it. And I think it's just the one Safdie. It's not Benny, it's Josh.
- [77:06]
Chris Fleming
Okay.
- [77:06]
Marc Maron
And I just saw the vibe of. It was who. I kind of. It was really kind of interesting. And then, like, just to have Schneider come out and do Elvis for no reason was like crazy.
- [77:19]
Chris Fleming
His loyalty to Schneider is really. I mean, his loyalty to everybody is just really beautiful. He's a beautiful person.
- [77:24]
Marc Maron
So, okay, so you inverted it or.
- [77:26]
Chris Fleming
I thought. No. So I feel I've had an inferiority complex because of the Comedy Studio of, like. I have always felt like I'm not weird enough because of that thing.
- [77:37]
Marc Maron
What thing?
- [77:38]
Chris Fleming
I have this innate feeling that I'm not strange or anything as a performer. I mean, I'm afraid of being too normcore. And so now when I made Hell, I feel like I've been liberated of that kind of albatross around my neck of being flexing, kind of the avant garde. And so now that's why I'm feeling a return to stand up is. It's so lovely. I feel like I can communicate so much.
- [78:03]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah, you kind of loaded it up. Was that the one? Did you have the music ensemble? Was that in Hell, or was that in the first one where you had some of the luminaires in there?
- [78:11]
Chris Fleming
That was the first one, yeah. Some of the lumineers showed up.
- [78:14]
Marc Maron
Well, that's because you have this whole other part of your being that I don't know where it came from. Maybe it was Skidmore, or maybe it was just interest that you kind of grew to. To take on. But I think that the struggle is that when you appreciate the avant garde in anything, that it's avant garde for a reason. So how do you temper that, your interest in it and your desire to be part of it and still be. Have an audience?
- [78:42]
Chris Fleming
Well, that's the thing. And a lot of at Skidmore, especially, a lot of the theater, hid behind abstraction and therefore was not inclusive. And that is the beauty of what Rick Jenkins taught me at the studio was like, the goal. I'm never trying to be like, don't come in. I'm trying to be as open to. I get, like, pissed when people don't understand, but I'm trying. The goal is clarity and inclusion.
- [79:04]
Marc Maron
Yeah, and. But. But you like that stuff.
- [79:07]
Chris Fleming
So the challenge. Yes, yes.
- [79:08]
Marc Maron
So the challenge was, well, how do I, you know, integrate this exactly into an audience that's not just this culty, you know, people that like, fucked up things for fucked up reasons.
- [79:19]
Chris Fleming
It gets old.
- [79:20]
Marc Maron
It does. Because then they expect it of you.
- [79:23]
Chris Fleming
And you're hitting the same buttons.
- [79:25]
Marc Maron
That's Right.
- [79:26]
Chris Fleming
And if they come to expect something from you, that's what's so exhausting about this, is that you have to keep leading people. You have to keep leading your audience and surprising. And taking these new turns that they luckily condone with, I think, an audience that loves you. I'm sure you feel this way that they will go with you.
- [79:42]
Marc Maron
Sure. Until I get that weird thing where I'm like, I don't want him to like me anymore. I'm going to take a few minutes and challenge them to like me.
- [79:50]
Chris Fleming
Do you ever feel. Do you ever hear a crowd laugh and you don't like the way they laugh and you don't want to keep making them laugh because you don't like the sound?
- [79:56]
Marc Maron
Sure.
- [79:57]
Chris Fleming
That happens to me sometimes.
- [79:58]
Marc Maron
Well, no, that's the sort of. Like, that crowd was too easy. I didn't get any work done.
- [80:05]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. Or if they're like, I did a. I reference little women and they cheered and I was, oh, it's gonna be that kind of a night.
- [80:14]
Marc Maron
Well, right, right. The highbrow. Yeah. Yeah. But do you have them? You have them?
- [80:22]
Chris Fleming
Well, hopefully, yes. Yes.
- [80:24]
Marc Maron
I thought that, like, in that first special, the woman that helped you on stage, I'm like, there's gotta be. That's gotta be a third of his audience.
- [80:34]
Chris Fleming
Oh, oh, 95%. No, no. Like, you wouldn't believe that moment where.
- [80:39]
Marc Maron
She turned around and did her claws. All right. They're all.
- [80:42]
Chris Fleming
Oh, they're all jungle cats. Oh, yeah.
- [80:44]
Marc Maron
No, no.
- [80:44]
Chris Fleming
I mean, sometimes I look out and it's the way that even just People just look exactly like. It's just a lot of women. This haircut.
- [80:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah, sure.
- [80:54]
Chris Fleming
These glasses.
- [80:54]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Well, I think what's also one of the sort of keys into the audience is that bit you do about the young gay guy and the women that are. They're friends with in college.
- [81:10]
Chris Fleming
Oh. Like the kind of abusive relationship.
- [81:14]
Marc Maron
I think that you have a room full of those women.
- [81:16]
Chris Fleming
Absolutely, Absolutely. Absolutely. A lot of. A lot of nice people with tattoos. Sure.
- [81:25]
Marc Maron
No, no. I get.
- [81:26]
Chris Fleming
Which is from Massachusetts. I'm always surprised when I see someone who has tattoos and is also look nice.
- [81:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah, Well, I mean, it's. What it really is is the art nerd spectrum.
- [81:36]
Chris Fleming
Yes.
- [81:37]
Marc Maron
Is what you get the.
- [81:38]
Chris Fleming
The art school crowd. If you have the art school crowd.
- [81:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [81:41]
Chris Fleming
I think you're doing something right.
- [81:42]
Marc Maron
You are. Until they're sort of like, well, he kind of did that same thing last year.
- [81:46]
Chris Fleming
Well, that's the beauty about being underrated also.
- [81:49]
Marc Maron
Or.
- [81:49]
Chris Fleming
Or if you Pop too much people. I. Being underrated is fantastic.
- [81:53]
Marc Maron
Well, where are you at with your.
- [81:54]
Chris Fleming
I'm underrated?
- [81:55]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [81:55]
Chris Fleming
I think I'm still. I'm kind of creeping.
- [81:58]
Marc Maron
But you can tortoise style. You can sell out in a small theater kind of deal.
- [82:02]
Chris Fleming
I just did the Wilbur 3 shows.
- [82:04]
Marc Maron
That's a lot. Yeah.
- [82:05]
Chris Fleming
That was the most I've ever done. I'm definitely doing the best I've ever done right now with crowds.
- [82:09]
Marc Maron
That's great.
- [82:10]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [82:11]
Marc Maron
What do you think's bringing them? Mostly everything.
- [82:13]
Chris Fleming
Just the clips on Instagram.
- [82:14]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [82:15]
Chris Fleming
From Largo.
- [82:16]
Marc Maron
Really?
- [82:16]
Chris Fleming
Oh, yeah. That's all. That's what's happening. I've seen the craziest reaction.
- [82:21]
Marc Maron
Spike.
- [82:22]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [82:23]
Marc Maron
Yeah. That's great.
- [82:24]
Chris Fleming
Do you do that ever? Do you just post? No, because you're.
- [82:26]
Marc Maron
I have a guy doing it and it's mostly older stuff, but it does get people introduced. Because I'm still relatively unknown.
- [82:33]
Chris Fleming
No, sure.
- [82:34]
Marc Maron
I mean, we're in a bubble in the big. In the big picture. So when I see a clip get out there. And now it's like these old clips from me talking about Trump in the first term. So I'm getting a lot of trolls and a lot of people would think I'm talking about now.
- [82:47]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [82:47]
Marc Maron
But like. But I only do, like, 10, 15 of, like, real political stuff. But there's a full variety of stuff on Instagram that I pay a guy to put up, and he keeps finding stuff.
- [82:58]
Chris Fleming
I met this guy, by the way. He does ZACH WOODS Day 10.
- [83:00]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. Oh, Zach's good. How's he doing?
- [83:03]
Chris Fleming
Oh, he's the best.
- [83:04]
Marc Maron
He is.
- [83:05]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [83:05]
Marc Maron
Who's that guy you use in your video sometimes? That's an actor that kind of.
- [83:08]
Chris Fleming
Maddy carteroppal.
- [83:09]
Marc Maron
Yeah, he's funny.
- [83:10]
Chris Fleming
He's so funny.
- [83:12]
Marc Maron
He was in Reservation Dogs.
- [83:14]
Chris Fleming
Yes, yes.
- [83:14]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yes. But, yeah, but I think it's constantly. The thing about Instagram with those reels is that you're constantly introduced to new people. People.
- [83:23]
Chris Fleming
And what's exciting to me about. If you look around, like, everyone is just on Instagram kind of all day, and so it's like, it almost feels like a return to. I don't want to say monoculture, but it does seem to, like, it's getting smaller, so if you can.
- [83:35]
Marc Maron
Right. And people get one out there, it's kind of fun. Well, I think most of my audience that I have now, a lot of them are from the live Instagrams I did during COVID You.
- [83:44]
Chris Fleming
Those were fantastic. Those were legendary.
- [83:46]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [83:46]
Chris Fleming
Like, half Your forehead would be in some of the shots.
- [83:48]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. And it's just me walking around my. For an hour.
- [83:51]
Chris Fleming
Yes.
- [83:52]
Marc Maron
And I've got a lot of like, interesting, kind of sensitive, smart, middle aged ladies who are a bit angry and they come out and they drag men to it.
- [84:04]
Chris Fleming
Same. The husbands are always.
- [84:06]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. I say like boyfriends. My audience is like a third women who are, who are sort of like, oh, yeah, he talked about this the other day. And then a third men going like, so this is the guy, huh?
- [84:19]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then you win them over in the end.
- [84:24]
Marc Maron
Most of the time.
- [84:25]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [84:26]
Marc Maron
I actually had an experience recently where I think a woman brought a man to spite him.
- [84:31]
Chris Fleming
Oh, completely. You can see in their faces.
- [84:33]
Marc Maron
There was a couple right up front and I'm doing like, just stuff, reacting to Trump and the guy said something like, that's right. And I'm like, why are you here? This isn't for you.
- [84:43]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [84:43]
Marc Maron
And then I look at this woman, I go, did you bring him? And she's like, yep.
- [84:48]
Chris Fleming
It was like an education. I had a birthday party that. Where the husband got separated and so he was in the front row.
- [84:55]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [84:55]
Chris Fleming
And so this is a miserable guy in truly a party hat, just frowning through my whole set. So much so that I clearly had to ask. Yeah, I know what's going on.
- [85:05]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And they pout the whole time. Yeah. The same with the Trump guy. He just sat there and right up front and he was looking everywhere but the stage.
- [85:12]
Chris Fleming
I love that.
- [85:13]
Marc Maron
And looking at his phone like they're.
- [85:15]
Chris Fleming
Here just by happenstance. Yeah.
- [85:16]
Marc Maron
They're just waiting for the next thing, which is not gonna happen.
- [85:19]
Chris Fleming
This is the next night.
- [85:20]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. He's gonna be there all night.
- [85:22]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [85:23]
Marc Maron
Well, I'm glad you're doing so well. And I think that the stuff that you're doing is interesting and important. It gives me hope.
- [85:30]
Chris Fleming
Wow. Mark. Oh, my God. This is truly an honor. Like, I, you know, this was a thing I always dreamed of doing as a young comedian. And so I can't believe that you've had me here.
- [85:42]
Marc Maron
Yeah. How do you feel about it? Okay. You think we covered enough?
- [85:44]
Chris Fleming
I think, I think I was expecting the reckoning. When you brought up the reckoning, I was way more nervous. But you were gentle and lovely.
- [85:55]
Marc Maron
Well, I got no beef with you. It wasn't that kind of reckoning.
- [85:58]
Chris Fleming
Can I tell you something?
- [85:59]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [85:59]
Chris Fleming
Okay. I did. I was so scared of you.
- [86:02]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [86:02]
Chris Fleming
And then I.
- [86:03]
Marc Maron
Before.
- [86:04]
Chris Fleming
Yes.
- [86:04]
Marc Maron
Like today.
- [86:05]
Chris Fleming
Before today.
- [86:06]
Marc Maron
Okay.
- [86:07]
Chris Fleming
But then I listened to the and this is a good exercise for anyone who doesn't. Okay. So I listened to you talking to Ariana Grande.
- [86:13]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah.
- [86:14]
Chris Fleming
And what made me less afraid of you and was very humanizing was there was a point where you wanted to share with her that you too were vegan. Yeah. And in fact, I have a record.
- [86:28]
Marc Maron
Okay.
- [86:29]
Chris Fleming
I recorded this. I put a beat to it. Oh, good.
- [86:32]
Marc Maron
Let's hear it.
- [86:32]
Chris Fleming
I think that this could be.
- [86:33]
Marc Maron
Is it an Ariana beat?
- [86:35]
Chris Fleming
Nope, it's my own beat. Oh, this is. This could be a hot track Mark.
- [86:39]
Marc Maron
Okay.
- [86:39]
Chris Fleming
A duet with. This is Marc Marin and Ariana.
- [86:42]
Marc Maron
I'm excited.
- [86:43]
Chris Fleming
Okay.
- [86:46]
Marc Maron
Yeah. I'm vegan, too. Two years. Yeah, almost two years. Fabulous. Yeah, I'm vegan too. Two years. Yeah, Almost two years. Yeah, I'm vegan too. Two years Fabulous. Almost two years. Fabulous. Two and a half. Almost two years. Fabulous. Two and a half. Almost 2 years. Fabulous.
- [87:07]
Chris Fleming
That's going to do numbers.
- [87:08]
Marc Maron
I put it out there.
- [87:10]
Chris Fleming
It's out there.
- [87:11]
Marc Maron
Oh, it is.
- [87:11]
Chris Fleming
It's going to be. No, no, no. After this, it's going to be out there.
- [87:14]
Marc Maron
You just put a picture of me and Ariana with the whatever.
- [87:17]
Chris Fleming
And it's called. Yeah, I'm Vegan too.
- [87:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I. I think there's. I. I like the idea that there's a vulnerability, but also a desperate attempt at connection. Yes.
- [87:29]
Chris Fleming
Exactly.
- [87:30]
Marc Maron
Yes. I can feel it. Like, I've been humbled lately with that. And I don't mind that people notice it.
- [87:38]
Chris Fleming
It's beautiful.
- [87:38]
Marc Maron
Yeah, because, like, after Fine Art showed me the cut of the doc, which is you don't get to see yourself from another point of view for an hour and a half.
- [87:49]
Chris Fleming
I wouldn't allow that, by the way. What? You allowed.
- [87:51]
Marc Maron
Yeah, but so when it was over, I just had really two notes. One was like, Jesus, man, you make me look like this cranky, sensitive guy who succeeded despite himself. And Steven goes, yeah. I'm like. And the entire thing. My pants are falling down. There's every. It's like the. There's a sub b story of my pants.
- [88:14]
Chris Fleming
Your pants are falling down.
- [88:15]
Marc Maron
They're always falling down.
- [88:17]
Chris Fleming
Is it cause you're assless?
- [88:18]
Marc Maron
No, it's because, like, I prefer to wear my pants well, because I don't like to feel a belt on my stomach.
- [88:22]
Chris Fleming
I hate belts.
- [88:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah, but you wear these really high pants and they're made of fabrics that I couldn't tolerate.
- [88:30]
Chris Fleming
So part of the plot is that you are always fixing your pants.
- [88:33]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Oh, totally. It's definitely.
- [88:34]
Chris Fleming
Oh, I love that.
- [88:35]
Marc Maron
And it's a subtext. It's just. It is. And then the other note I had was he interviewed some people, like, you know, Nate and Cross and Michaela Watkins. Well, she wasn't bad, but the comics, she's the best. The comics that he interviewed, they were just busting my balls. And I said, you talk to these people for 45 minutes. Can you just have one saying a respectful, nice thing as opposed to, like, ugh, Marin. You know, like, it's like, we get enough of that.
- [89:03]
Chris Fleming
But I'll tell you what. It's because you've become a cultural. I did a big audition for something, and a character that someone was doing was a Marc Maron. It was Marc Maron doing Sesame street or something. It was like, that is how known you are. You are an archetype.
- [89:16]
Marc Maron
Oh, good.
- [89:16]
Chris Fleming
And so that is.
- [89:17]
Marc Maron
I didn't get the call for that one. I don't think they could just try to get me by matter. My management's like, no, he's not going to do the Sesame street thing.
- [89:28]
Chris Fleming
Yeah, yeah. No, it's because you are a, you know, you're a staple. You're right. You, you are. You have made it.
- [89:36]
Marc Maron
Oh, good. I, I am a thing. I, I, I, I think I'm. I'm almost at the cusp of old. Eccentric of some kind. Like, Like a, Like a archetype of some kind.
- [89:48]
Chris Fleming
Like an inventor.
- [89:49]
Marc Maron
Yeah, exactly.
- [89:49]
Chris Fleming
I kind of walk around. Around.
- [89:51]
Marc Maron
I think Marin's still around.
- [89:53]
Chris Fleming
He's living in Ann Arbor.
- [89:54]
Marc Maron
Yeah. That's what's gonna happen. Yeah.
- [89:56]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. He's building a craft.
- [89:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Been working on it for years.
- [90:00]
Chris Fleming
He says it's seaworthy.
- [90:02]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Well, that would be a nice retirement.
- [90:05]
Chris Fleming
Yeah.
- [90:06]
Marc Maron
I finally finished the ark.
- [90:08]
Chris Fleming
Yeah. I could, I could see you. Yeah. Like in the end of Sha Shank, but with like an arc in like a swamp.
- [90:13]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Here we go.
- [90:14]
Chris Fleming
In like a. Some kind of.
- [90:16]
Marc Maron
This will get me out of here.
- [90:17]
Chris Fleming
Humid place.
- [90:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Good talking to you.
- [90:20]
Chris Fleming
Good. You too.
- [90:26]
Marc Maron
There you go. I love that conversation. I loved it. Again, you can see him live at Largo here in LA on April 24 and May 15. Hang out for a minute, folks. Hey, folks, I've been doing this a long time, more than 15 years. And I can tell you from firsthand experience, when I hear from my listeners, they not only know me, they know my sponsors. Research shows that 74% of listeners recall the brands they hear when listening to podcasts. So if you're a business owner or marketer and you want your business to be Top of mind. Podcast advertising with Acast is the way to go. If you're ready to be heard, run podcast ads with Acast by visiting go acast.com marc okay, people. For full Marin subscribers, we posted a bonus episode yesterday where I talked with Brendan about my experience watching the first public screening of Are We Good? The documentary about the past five years of my life. There's one thing where I'm at home after being in la, you know, probably before I went into rehab. I'm not sure when it was, but I was clearly kind of being kind of dicey. Like, dice clayish. I could see that my brain was pretty fucked from everything I was taking in. And I saw myself as this drug warrior and, you know, I was smoking cigarettes and, you know, kind of my hair was long and fucked up and, like. And I'm, you know, taking this position that was not earned. And, you know, who the fuck wants to earn that anyways?
- [91:57]
Chris Fleming
Right?
- [91:58]
Marc Maron
Like, I. It was. It was all a fabrication, personality fabrication to, you know, to be something or also to be you. It was like you were wearing, like.
- [92:09]
Chris Fleming
Fucking Iron man suit in those things. Like, it was such armor. Like, that's what I saw.
- [92:14]
Marc Maron
Yeah, but it didn't fly. No power at all. To get that episode and all the full Marin bonus episodes, subscribe by going to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF. And just a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. Okay, here's some guitar. I worked on this one. Boomer Lives Monkey and La Fonda Cat Angels everywhere.