Episode 1634 - Ryan Coogler

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1634 Summary

Title: Episode 1634 - Ryan Coogler
Release Date: April 14, 2025
Host: Marc Maron
Guests: Ryan Coogler & Michael B. Jordan

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Introduction

In Episode 1634 of WTF with Marc Maron, host Marc Maron engages in a deep and revealing conversation with acclaimed filmmaker Ryan Coogler, alongside his frequent collaborator, actor Michael B. Jordan. The episode explores Coogler's journey in the film industry, his creative inspirations, and his latest project, "Sinners."

Ryan Coogler’s Journey in Filmmaking

Ryan Coogler, renowned for directing impactful films like Fruitvale Station, Creed, and the culturally transformative Black Panther, shares his evolution as a filmmaker. He discusses his dedication to storytelling that delves into themes of identity and social justice, particularly within the African American community.

Notable Quote:

Ryan Coogler [28:05]: "I tend to make movies that explore stories about identity—my identity as an American, as an African American, a black man."

Discussing Fruitvale Station

Coogler reflects on Fruitvale Station, a raw and devastating portrayal of a police officer's killing of a young black man. He emphasizes the film's basis in true events and its enduring relevance amidst ongoing racial tensions.

Notable Quote:

Ryan Coogler [25:29]: "It was a devastating movie about a police officer killing a black young man. It's based on a true story, and all this stuff still happens and continues to happen."

Creed and Expanding the Rocky Franchise

Transitioning to Creed, Coogler discusses his role in revitalizing the Rocky franchise by introducing Adonis Creed, the son of Apollo Creed. He delves into the emotional connections and personal motivations that drove him to continue the legacy of the beloved series.

Notable Quote:

Ryan Coogler [56:09]: "Rocky was my dad's movie hero, so the idea for me was to let me make a movie where Rocky's got to overcome something and to let my dad enjoy that right now."

Black Panther and Its Cultural Impact

Coogler speaks passionately about Black Panther, highlighting its unprecedented success and significance in showcasing black culture and narratives on a global stage. He discusses the challenges of working within the Marvel Cinematic Universe and the responsibility that comes with directing such a pivotal film.

Notable Quote:

Ryan Coogler [60:17]: "I wanted to get every Black Panther comic that was ever written. And it was like, 'Yo, we'll be right with you.'"

Sinners: Blending Horror with Black-Centric Themes

Coogler introduces his new film, Sinners, a horror movie that intertwines blues music, mysticism, and vampire mythology. He explains his intent to create a unique narrative that honors black cultural elements while exploring darker themes.

Notable Quote:

Ryan Coogler [74:35]: "I wanted to deal with the archetypes in this movie...to feel like a blues song, something that you heard before, even though you heard it for the first time."

Personal Challenges and Creative Process

The conversation shifts to Coogler's personal challenges, including managing anxiety and maintaining balance amidst creative pressures. He discusses the importance of community, support systems, and staying true to his vision while navigating the complexities of the film industry.

Notable Quote:

Ryan Coogler [88:50]: "The biggest challenge is going to afford myself the confidence and space to know when a take is done, to know when a set is set up."

Collaboration with Michael B. Jordan

Michael B. Jordan joins the discussion, providing insights into his collaboration with Coogler. They talk about the synergy between directing and acting, the importance of mutual trust, and the creative dynamics that drive their successful partnerships.

Notable Quote:

Michael B. Jordan [16:42]: "My wife was a sign language interpreter before I convinced her to make movies with me."

Exploration of Music and Mythology in Sinners

Coogler delves into the thematic elements of Sinners, emphasizing the role of blues music and its deep cultural roots. He discusses how music serves as a vehicle for expressing pain and transcending it, blending mythological aspects with real human emotions.

Notable Quote:

Ryan Coogler [70:05]: "Black Panther with a mythological universe that, you know, the good guys and the bad guys. Everybody's black."

Conclusion

Marc Maron and Ryan Coogler conclude the episode by reflecting on the power of storytelling and its ability to shape and reflect societal issues. Coogler expresses gratitude for the opportunities to tell meaningful stories that resonate with diverse audiences, underscoring his commitment to impactful filmmaking.

Notable Quote:

Ryan Coogler [87:46]: "I had to go through what I went through with my other movies to be able to have the ability to do this."

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Key Takeaways

• Identity and Storytelling: Coogler's films center on exploring and representing black identity and social issues.
• Cultural Impact: Black Panther marks a significant milestone in showcasing black narratives on a global platform.
• Innovative Projects: Sinners represents Coogler's venture into blending horror with deep cultural and musical themes.
• Collaboration: The strong partnership between Coogler and Jordan highlights the importance of trust and mutual understanding in creative endeavors.
• Personal Growth: Coogler openly discusses his personal challenges, emphasizing the importance of mental health and community support in his creative process.

Quotes with Timestamps

• Ryan Coogler [28:05]: "I tend to make movies that explore stories about identity—my identity as an American, as an African American, a black man."
• Ryan Coogler [25:29]: "It was a devastating movie about a police officer killing a black young man. It's based on a true story, and all this stuff still happens and continues to happen."
• Ryan Coogler [56:09]: "Rocky was my dad's movie hero, so the idea for me was to let me make a movie where Rocky's got to overcome something and to let my dad enjoy that right now."
• Ryan Coogler [60:17]: "I wanted to get every Black Panther comic that was ever written. And it was like, 'Yo, we'll be right with you.'"
• Ryan Coogler [74:35]: "I wanted to deal with the archetypes in this movie...to feel like a blues song, something that you heard before, even though you heard it for the first time."
• Ryan Coogler [88:50]: "The biggest challenge is going to afford myself the confidence and space to know when a take is done, to know when a set is set up."
• Michael B. Jordan [16:42]: "My wife was a sign language interpreter before I convinced her to make movies with me."
• Ryan Coogler [70:05]: "Black Panther with a mythological universe that, you know, the good guys and the bad guys. Everybody's black."
• Ryan Coogler [87:46]: "I had to go through what I went through with my other movies to be able to have the ability to do this."

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Note: This summary focuses solely on the content-rich segments of the episode, omitting advertisements, intros, outros, and non-essential sections to provide a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Marc Maron]

Lock the gate. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the. What the Buddies?

[Ryan Coogler]

What the Nicks?

[Marc Maron]

What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. What is happening? How's it going? How's it. How's it feeling? I just want to, you know, check in. Tough times. Tough times in the world. Tough times. If you think a certain way. Tough times in your head if they're already tough. Already. Already tough already. Yeah, I just said that sentence. Look, I'm sitting in a hotel room in Traverse City, Michigan. I did two shows here last night, and they went really nice. They were. They went well. It was a nice little theater. It's a comedy festival up here. I've. I've never been up to Traverse City on some level in my immediate world. Right now, I'm in a. I'm in a room. I'm looking out on what I imagine is Lake Michigan. Correct. And it's. It's pretty. It's a little overcast, it's quiet. Because this is a summertown. So it's got that summertown off season vibe. I guess it's similar to, like, an island. Like island people. I mean, there are definitely locals who spend the summer accommodating tourists who are there to have a good time. And then here we are in the sort of off season time where, you know, the locals kind of can relax and sort of fortify their spirits in preparation to hide the resentment for the demanding tourists of the summer season. So it's kind of got a nice vibe. So, look, folks, today on the show, I talked to Ryan Coogler. He's the writer and director of Fruitville Station, Creed and the two Black Panther movies. His new film is called Sinners, which he made with his frequent collaborator, Michael B. Jordan. And it's a pretty trippy movie. I didn't know what to expect. A lot of times I get guests and I get screeners, but this movie is definitely a horror movie. I think it's Jordan Peele does his thing, but there seems to be sort of a. A world of black centric horror that's coming out that's pretty. Pretty intense and pretty engaging. And I had no idea what this movie was about, but it's sort of focused in the story of the blues, and it's very grounded in music and mysticism and vampires. So there's a lot to be liked about this movie. And it was very interesting to talk to Ryan because I also watched Fruitville Station, which I hadn't seen, which is a devastating movie about a police officer killing a black young man. And it's based on a true story. And, you know, all this stuff still happens and continues to happen and continue to. Continues to get worse. But it was good to talk about where Ryan came from and what, you know, what his vision for films are. I'm in Los Angeles at Dynasty Typewriter starting this Monday, April 14. Then on Saturday, April 26, and again on Tuesday, April 29. Those are all 7:30pm Shows. I'm at Largo, 8pm show on Tuesday, April 22. Toronto. I'm at the Winter Garden on Saturday, May 3, for two shows. Burlington, Vermont. I'm at the Vermont Comedy Club for two shows on Monday, May 5, and one show on Tuesday, May 6. Portsmouth, New Hampshire. I'll be at the Music hall on Wednesday, May 7. Then I'm in Brooklyn for my HBO special taping at the Bam Harvey Theater on May 10th. Two shows there. Go to wtfpod.com tour for all my dates and links to tickets. Yeah, so I've been away a lot, and I'm a bit untethered out here, but again, out here in the world, a lot of good people, a lot of nice people, a lot of people that come out and enjoy the relief. It's a very strange thing, though, after a show that I know that I'm doing a show, and I know that my audience, mostly, they are grateful for the show and they get some laughs. But then you leave and you walk out into the world of what's happening politically and what's happening in your own mind and your concerns about your own life. Had some federal workers, you know, come up to me after the show who are on the edge of losing their jobs or have already lost their jobs, and there's just not. There's not a lot of places to go in the mind in terms of.

[Ryan Coogler]

And in.

[Marc Maron]

In reality, in terms of. Of hope or, or. Or knowing what to do next with. With one's life and one's purpose. And it's just. It's fucking brutal, but it's happening. And I am appreciative or relieved that some people in the broader cultural media universe are starting to acknowledge what's happening and acknowledge that what we're seeing here is a very aggressive, authoritarian coup of sorts. And I know that the sort of response to that on the other side, in a sort of limited information side, is that, well, he was. He was elected. Democratically elected. Yeah, by a small margin. But, you know, that is one of the blindsides of democracy, is you may elect a monster and I don't know, I honestly don't know in my mind in terms of what people are really like, you know, how people still see strength or hope or benefit to the country in the future with what's going on. But it is happening. It is happening. It is happening. And at some point you got to stand up and be counted somehow, probably through some database that some techno overlord is pilfering. But maybe from your own place and from your own point of view. I don't mean to be heavy, but Jesus Christ, you know, I'm out here doing nothing but thinking and wandering around and look, I can appreciate, you know, where I'm at, but still the mind is churning. The information on the phone is churning and it's hard not to personalize it and crumble. But try not to crumble, people. Try. Oh, man, this is. I'm sorry, I can tell you about Grand Rapids, about, you know, I was, I was surprised about Grand Rapids, Michigan. What a pleasant city. What a pleasant city. And I can talk about why. That'll be nice. And again, very nice people meeting a lot of nice people. And they're still out there. And they're not, you know, people aren't hiding yet. Let's talk about home security for a minute, folks. I have home security because I want my place to be safe whether I'm at home or whether I'm not. And we've recommended simply, say for almost a decade as home security you can trust. During that time, Simplisafe has only gotten better. And Right now, the SimpliSafe system is the best it's ever been, thanks to SimpliSafe Active Guard Outdoor Protection, which prevents crime before it happens. Stop break ins, package theft and vandalism with live monitoring agents who can see, speak to and deter suspicious individuals outside your home before they can do anything. And SimpliSafe is not only effective, it's affordable. Pricing starts at around a dollar a day with, with no hidden fees. You'll never be locked into a long term contract. So you can cancel at any time. Right now, WTF listeners can get the same peace of mind we get by using SimpliSafe. And we wanted to make sure you can get the best deal possible. WTF listeners get 50% off a new SimpliSafe system with professional monitoring and the first month is free. Go to SimpliSafe.com WTF that's SimpliSafe.com WTF for 50% off and the first month free, there's no safe like Simply safe. One thing that always moves me, which I don't quite know why, but I'm always fascinated, and there's great examples of this in Grand Rapids, is when you have these older buildings, either built at the turn of the century, these old kind of buildings that were once businesses. Some cities that do some kind of renovation or urban renewal of whatever, kind of treat these museums with a certain amount of respect. Sometimes they leave the ghost of the old signs of the business that once occupied the building on the building, and they usually kind of clean up the bricks and put new windows in, and it becomes sort of a kind of a museum piece with respect for some other time that has gone by, or at least a structure. And Grand Rapids is full of these buildings in certain sections right near downtown.

[Ryan Coogler]

And I just.

[Marc Maron]

I love looking at them. I love looking at brick, and I love looking at, you know, old buildings from the early 1900s that have been renovated with new windows, cleaned up, bricks. And for some reason, I get a real sort of poetic and moving vibe from them. I just love seeing when they're treated nicely and taken care of. And there's a lot of that in, in Grand Rapids. And there's also some of the best coffee I ever had in my life in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And that's weird. And sometimes I don't know what that means since I've. God knows how much coffee I've drank in my life. But sometimes you go to a place and you're like, oh, my God, this coffee is amazing. I'm sure I've had that experience many times in my life at different points and in different places. But this lantern coffee in Grand Rapids was just amazing. Outside of that, the show was great. There's a venue there that is kind of astounding. And I, you know, I noticed sound. I'm very sort of sensitive to sound. And this venue, GLC Live at 20 Monroe in Grand Rapids, is not an old theater. It's a newly built structure for live music and live events. And sometimes if they're designed well, you don't know where they're going to happen or how they happen or who designed it. But this is primarily a rock venue. But in terms of sight lines and in terms of the stage, it's just fucking perfect. And because of the way the structure was designed, the room is dead, which I'm a big fan of. You know, when you do audio recording, a dead room means that you'll. You won't get any noise, you won't hear cars in the background, you won't hear bounce. But to be in a venue where the entire place is like that, it was just, it was so. It was kind of like a privilege to work in a place where the sound is so honest and that venue is amazing. So I don't know if you live in Grand Rapids or you live close to Grand Rapids, but I imagine if you have an opportunity to go see a show at that place, GLC live at 20 Monroe, I would do that. I would do that. Again, I'm sorry about the heaviness at the beginning. I'm just trying to manage, you know, I can only take so much of the world before I, you know, refocus on my cats at home. And apparently, even though I've been trying to medicate Charlie and trying to get that thing under control, that little monster, I'm not sure it's working from the reports I'm getting from the woman babysitting my cats and I don't know. So Charlie's medicated, I'm medicated. And this busporin, though I was optimistic and excited at the beginning, I'm not sure that it's doing what I want it to do, hence the opening of this particular podcast. But again, that's reasonable. But how much time during the day do I need to obsess and panic about it? I mean, right now, nothing's happening out my window. Lake Michigan is calm, there's a nice overcast, there seems to be some hills in the distance. That's what's happening right now in my real time life. What's happening in my mind, that's layers. All I'm thinking about is, you know, Charlie beating up on the other cats, authoritarianism happening in my country, you know, the future. What's going to happen, you know, when I go to New York, when I go to Toronto, when I go here or there, I'm happy. I'll be home for a few hours, for a few weeks before all these shows to kind of tighten up the hour. Yeah, my health, my mind, my. My physical fitness, like it just is ongoing at all times. And the only way to counter that is like maybe I can lock into my phone and just completely have single singleness of focus on bullshit that I can hold in my hand or I can just panic. And I thought that the medicine would kind of temper that, but it doesn't seem to be doing it. And clearly Charlie is shitting outside the box and beating the fuck out of the other cats. So I guess Charlie and I together are going to have to move through this medication trial. You know, and figure out what's happening for both of us. Well, I'll get home and we'll reconnect on that and see what we can do. I don't fucking know, man. This show is sponsored by Better Help. Yeah. Who doesn't need it. And yes, it's true. Traditional in person therapy can be expensive. With Average costs between 100 to $250 per session, which adds up pretty fast, folks. And a lot of times that can be enough to stand in the way of people getting the help they need through therapy. With Better Help, you can save on average up to 50% per session. You pay a flat fee for weekly sessions, and it's all done online. You get quality care at a price that makes sense and on a platform where you can do it from anywhere. I think of therapy as something necessary for my life. Not a thing I need in an emergency, just something that helps me stay grounded. Yeah, and Better Help can become a regular option for you, helping you keep your mental health in good shape. With more than 30,000 therapists, better help is the world's largest online therapy platform. It's convenient as well. You can join a session with the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life, plus switch therapists at any time. Your well being is worth it. Visit betterhelp.com WTF to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp H E L P.com WTF man, first couple days of this trip, sometimes that three hour time difference, I was just fucked up and beside myself. A little loopy. But again, the shows have been good. Focusing on the work has been helpful. You know, trying to get exercise and eat right has been helpful. Talking to like minded people and talking to close friends about what I'm going through and what they're going through has been helpful. Kind of figuring out a path to sort of take action in ways that I can, speak my mind in ways that I can is helpful and important, stressful time and there's some two levels of concern or care. You do have to take care of yourself and your vessel and your mind, but you also have to stay engaged and take action in any way you can to push back on what is happening. Okay, okay, look. So Ryan Coogler, very interesting guy, interesting story, great filmmaker. The movie Sinners opens in theaters this Friday, April 18th. It's showing in IMAX, which is the format Ryan encourages you to see it in. It is a horror movie. It is a a vampire centric horror movie, but in a very Unique way it's framed around music and around the blues and around the black experience from the delta to Chicago, back to the Delta and, and, and the different sort of ways he approaches music in the movie are, are interesting. And it, it. Look, I'll let it start. Speak for itself. This is me talking to Ryan Coogler.

[Michael B. Jordan]

My wife was a sign language interpreter before. Before I convinced her to make movies with me.

[Ryan Coogler]

Really?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

So you can do it?

[Michael B. Jordan]

I can, I can finger spill. Yeah, yeah. I can't. I can't. I can't do the word. I'm not crazy. I'm not like her, bro. Yeah, she, she's.

[Ryan Coogler]

Did she used to. Where did she do it for?

[Michael B. Jordan]

She did it. Her first job, she got hired by a non profit called Dakara.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

So she would help basically help deaf people find work and get them acclimated on their job.

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh wow.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And then When I did Creed 1, she decided that she wanted to come. Cause she was always there for me whenever I made movies. Even when I was in film school. She was always basically producing.

[Ryan Coogler]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Though it wasn't like an official thing. Cause I was in film school where everybody on the crew had to kind of be part of the school, you know what I'm saying? And I met Fruitville. She was working her 9 to 5, but she would come, you know. Cause you know, she working eight hour days, we working twelves and she would get off work, come straight to set. When I got Creed going, she decided that she wanted to come with me to Philadelphia to be there for me. She got a leave of absence from her job.

[Ryan Coogler]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

But then she, you know, basically like became an independent contractor. Like an independent sign language interpreter.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And got hired, you know, by an agency in Philadelphia while we were there. So she was working there.

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh wow. Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, helping, you know, helping student at school this day and help somebody on job training another day. And then she would come to set when she.

[Ryan Coogler]

So she was part of like. She got part of like job placement, temporary job placement place that needed interpreters for whatever.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Exactly.

[Ryan Coogler]

So she just to stay busy and do service.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yep. And they did the same thing in L. A when I was in post. And then when I did Panther, she did the same thing, you know, like was working in L. A And then I convinced her after that movie to start making films, you know, full time.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh yeah, yeah. Well that's. Well, because that's a. That's an interesting, you know, thing in that, I mean she didn't have to work. Right. I mean she.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I Mean, back then, we did. She did. Yeah. Yeah, back then, bro.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I wasn't making no money even on Creed, though.

[Ryan Coogler]

I mean, she must.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I mean, I was. I was 200 grand in. In debt for film school, so maybe she had. So, yeah, it was bad. Like, like, you know, we wasn't married yet neither. Like, like, we was. We was engaged.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

But. But she had, like. Like, she was, you know. You know, we don't come from no money, bro. So, like, it was, you know, we didn't get to the place where, you know, you could argue. She didn't have to work till, like, after.

[Ryan Coogler]

I just wondered if she.

[Michael B. Jordan]

She.

[Ryan Coogler]

It was a, you know, it was part of a. A feeling of service to do the, to do the work she did.

[Michael B. Jordan]

100%, bro.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. But she also come from, like, you know, salt to the earth people. Like, her pop is. Her pop is 93 right now.

[Ryan Coogler]

93.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And her mom is from the Philippines. Moved to the Bay Area when she was, like. When she was, like, 20, 21.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

So she first generation on our mom's side, and then she silent generation on our dad's side. You know what I mean? And, you know, it came up without a lot, you know, so. So, so she always. She always was a worker. You know, she was always gonna. She was always gonna get hers. You know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

But it's a. It's. I, I. It's rare that I think you find people, and they're very important that, that do work that helps people.

[Michael B. Jordan]

100%. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. Yeah. Like, real work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That builds people up.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. 100%.

[Ryan Coogler]

Most people are out for themselves.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. No, not, not her.

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah. And how you grew up in that as well, right?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. My mom worked for a nonprofit founded by a Jesuit priest in Oakland, and they did community organization. So the nonprofit itself would employ and train community organizers that would then go out and train communities. It was an international organization. My mom was an executive, though. She started off as the founder's secretary.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And then eventually worked our way up to being, like, the CFO at an organization before. Before she left it.

[Ryan Coogler]

Like, in, in those situations, though, like, what is the job of a community organizer?

[Michael B. Jordan]

To be honest with you, bro, like, like, like, I don't know. Like, like, like my mom's job was what I knew. And she worked. She worked in an office.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Like, in Oakland, not far from my school. She did a lot of paperwork. Like, she had, like, a copy machine. Computer. And you knew that upstairs and the downstairs. And upstair was he ran the organization.

[Ryan Coogler]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And he had a lot of. Like I was a kid, bro. He had a lot of papers and people would come in and meet.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Well, I just. I mean, it's weird because I asked because, you know, I've had. I have had a lot of Oakland around me lately because I had Delroy in here.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

A couple days ago.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. Delroy lives. He from somewhere else, but he lives. He lives in Auckland. He's lived in Auckland for like, I don't know, what, 40 years. Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And then, and then like last week I was with Kamau. You know, Kamau.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I'm not Kamau.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And then, and then I ran. Just last night I ran into Boo Boots.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Boost is from Auckland. Yeah, yeah. Boost is from Auckland.

[Ryan Coogler]

I just went to a restaurant and I saw that hat.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I had the red hat. Yeah, that's like. You know what's funny?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Last time I saw Boost, I was in a restaurant and saw the red hat. It was. It was like a year and a half ago. It was actually, actually just a year and some change. Go. It was before we both made our movies. Oh, yeah, because he's finishing his right now too.

[Ryan Coogler]

Right, right. Well, this must be his like second or third movie, right?

[Michael B. Jordan]

It's his second movie.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Because he did that TV show.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And he did that. The weird movie. That crazy movie.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. It's incredible. It's. Sorry to bother you.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

With the horse headed guys.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I loved it, man. I love boos.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

He's.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Whenever I talk to him, I almost brought my notebook in here. I feel the same way about when I listen to your podcast. You gonna say something? It's a strong chance you're gonna say something. I should write down, you know, knock down it. Like Boost is like that, man. Whenever. Sometimes I'll bring my notebook when he's talking to me because he'll talk to me about like history. And he got such a unique perspective, you know what I'm saying? Like being a musician and a filmmaker.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

So, like, I had a good conversation with Delroy. He's an amazing guy, amazing actor. But when I went to see the movie, you know, I went to see Sinners and I didn't really know anything about it. Right. So I go over there and. And I had no idea it was a music movie, you know? And I'm kind of like a blues person.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I see all the guitars.

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah, you know. You know, I got Alan Wolf up here on the. On the wall.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Wow.

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah, that's Chuck Berry. And then there's a picture of.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Oh, that's a metal. They got a wolf.

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

That's amazing.

[Ryan Coogler]

That's a good one, right?

[Michael B. Jordan]

It's beautiful.

[Ryan Coogler]

Doing the thing.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. I see Chuck now. Yup, yup, yup. And that's Mick, huh?

[Ryan Coogler]

That's Mick. Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

But. But so, like, I get in there and right. Right out of the gate, I'm like, oh, shit, it's a blues movie.

[Michael B. Jordan]

That's awesome.

[Ryan Coogler]

You know, I'm like, all right. I had no idea where we were starting, but we started right at the. Right at the. At the Delta, you know, what is it? Probably the 20s, 30s, 20s.

[Michael B. Jordan]

32 is.

[Ryan Coogler]

32.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

So it's after the.

[Michael B. Jordan]

The.

[Ryan Coogler]

The old, Old guys.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, yeah. Just. Just. Just.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Ryan Coogler]

You're getting into the guys that knew them, but are the next ones, and then they.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Exactly.

[Ryan Coogler]

Some of them moving up to Chicago. But in terms of, like, this movie was, you know, after Creed. After the Creeds, after, you know, Black Panther. Like, what. What makes you want to, you know, kind of get into this story, man?

[Michael B. Jordan]

That's such a good question, bro. So. So I tend to make movies. Like, I'm drawn to stories about identity.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And my identity as a. You know, as an American, as an African American, a black man. What some folks would call, like, a foundational Black American.

[Unnamed Guest]

Like.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Like, meaning. Meaning, meaning my ancestors have been here a very long time.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? Like in. You know, have you tr.

[Ryan Coogler]

Have you traced it? I mean, it's an interesting name.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

We have never heard your last name before.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Oh, yeah, It's a German name.

[Ryan Coogler]

It's German. Okay.

[Michael B. Jordan]

German name. Yeah. Like, so. So it means. It means somebody German owned one of my ancestors. Right. And, you know, it's something that I'm always. It affects, you know, everything, you know. You know, my identity, like, culturally, my identity, personally. Yeah. And the older I get, the more I'm interested in the question, you know what I'm saying? Like, I was interested in this question when I was a kid, and now I have kids, you know what I'm saying? And I'm even more interested in it and getting to the root of why I am who I am now, but also why the world is the way it is and what's my place in that. So. So with. With. With. With Fruitville, I was telling a story about, you know, a place that I.

[Ryan Coogler]

Know, it was like down the street.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Down the street, Exactly.

[Ryan Coogler]

And that's a. It's a devastating film. You know, the way you shoot it, it's kind of intimate and menacing.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And that the decision to include the real footage at the beginning.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

You know, because you know what's gonna happen.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And then it's the process of humanization.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Which is what the camera is capable of doing.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yes.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, and we know this in the age, everybody's got a high def camera in their pocket. You know what I mean? And the world has been changed by that, but also reinforced in some ways. But, you know, for me, you know, each film, I like to start with a question. And for Fruitville, the question was initially was like, how could this happen here? Cause I had a view of the Bay Area, and I think everybody did. Had their own personal view of the Bay Area and the question of how a man could be essentially executed. This is where the Panthers were founded, where we from. And they were founded for this very reason, because these things were happening. You know what I mean? So in studying that film, you know, I got to dig in, but also, like, discover things about myself, you know what I mean? On that movie, I realized I wanted children, you know, like, I didn't think I wanted kids before I made that movie, but through the process of making it, of many things, it was also a story about a father, you know, young father, you know, And I was like, oh, man, I want to see what that's like to have a kid, you know, and for Creed, I got the idea for that. Cause my father had gotten sick, you know, in a way I didn't understand.

[Ryan Coogler]

Is he still around?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, he's good.

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, good.

[Michael B. Jordan]

He's good. But, you know, it was touch and go for a while, you know, while I came up with that idea.

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah. Now when you like to go back to Fruitville for a minute, so you heard that story, and something about that story, and it's a sadly common story, is that there was no way for you not to identify with the possibility and the reality of that.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes.

[Ryan Coogler]

And so when you start to decide to create a story around that guy.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yep.

[Ryan Coogler]

Do you talk to his wife or his girlfriend?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, I talk to everybody.

[Ryan Coogler]

You talk to all of them?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, I talk to everybody.

[Ryan Coogler]

Because, you know, because what unfolds there was. Is interesting is that, you know, to honor that guy's, you know, memory, you know, the honesty that you took to that story, which is like, he's a flawed guy. He's got problems.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, totally.

[Ryan Coogler]

And, you know, but he's not. Not different than anybody else. He's just trying to get by.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And then, you know, this horrendous thing happens to him specifically because of. Of racism. Really. And. And that. And then, you know, it's weird. Every time you see a movie like that or you hear a story like that, you're like, well, did that fucker have to pay that cop?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And it's never enough.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Nah.

[Ryan Coogler]

But so you learned about yourself even approaching the guy as a father, that by telling that story, you, you know, you're able to create a full picture of not just the tragedy, but bringing the real human, the humanism to it. This is a guy just trying to get by.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, totally, totally. And a guy from a community. A guy who had people who he loved, A guy who had people who was counting on him.

[Ryan Coogler]

Was he from Oakland?

[Michael B. Jordan]

He's from Hayward, actually.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, okay.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, it's a couple cities over.

[Ryan Coogler]

And what. You. What did you. When you finished that? You know, being with that story for so long.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Like, the fear doesn't go away, right?

[Michael B. Jordan]

No, no. Nah, hell no, man. Like, I mean, what usually follows me finishing a movie and putting it all as depression, you know? You know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

That must have been depression on a few levels.

[Michael B. Jordan]

On a lot of levels. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because when we released it, that was when George Zimmerman verdict came down.

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, like. Like, so he. So he walked basically, like while we were in. In theaters.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, a part of me was very naive, you know, when I was my. In my mid-20s making that movie.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, thinking, hey, man, this will maybe make a difference. Maybe this. Maybe this will, you know, and it was very clear that to me at the time, I was like, yeah, probably not.

[Ryan Coogler]

You know, I mean, the powerlessness of it is. It. It almost seems. And now, like with this government, you know, anybody who thinks differently.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Who.

[Ryan Coogler]

Who has, you know, the. Who believes in tolerance and. And empathy, you know, has all of a sudden been othered as well.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

So there's a. There's a sort of a. A trauma vibration happening now.

[Michael B. Jordan]

But.

[Ryan Coogler]

But the black community is known forever.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Since they've been here.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Oh, yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

So. But the powerlessness, it seems to me that what you land on, you know, even with sinners to some degree, is that the only power you have is community.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes, sir.

[Ryan Coogler]

Right. Yes, sir. And what you have in that is you have, you know, extended family and people who understand the struggle, but also just Want to live their fucking lives.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yep, yep.

[Ryan Coogler]

And, you know, and the beauty.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And the epic beauty in that. Yeah, yeah. The epic beauty in seeing each other. Having people who see you understand your position in society or the superhuman pressures that's on you.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

But also simultaneously understand that you just. A person like that wants to have a good time for a night or wants to dream or wants to spend time with you, wants to make it home to your kid, you know?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

All of those things I thought, you know, was, you know, that was what I realized that I wanted to make movies about.

[Ryan Coogler]

And did you. When you get. When you started making movies, was that on your mind?

[Michael B. Jordan]

I mean, that idea, I think, like, was imprinted on me just circumstantially, like how my family gets down and how my neighborhood got down. Like, you know, like what it was like to be from Oakland at the time.

[Ryan Coogler]

What'd your old man do?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, my dad worked as a youth guidance counselor in juvenile hall. So, like, essentially, man, he hasn't had that job for a long time now, but. But it was essentially like a cross between a childcare provider in a group home and a prison guard, you know what I'm saying? It was where kids who got incarcerated would go. And this job of a youth guidance counselor was. You kind of had to be the adult there that made sure the kid was good and kind of helped guide the kid into adulthood in the time that they're there. But you also have to, you know what I'm saying, make sure that they not leaving this place you're escaping. Have to make sure they're not harming themselves or the other young people that's incarcerated with him. That was his job.

[Ryan Coogler]

Did he see the movie? Did he see all the movies?

[Michael B. Jordan]

My dad? Yeah, he watched all my movies. Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And when he, like, there must be something after watching Fruitvale that, that, that again, that powerlessness that, you know, no matter what he does or how good he does it.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And no matter how good these, you know, these kids are when they leave or what they try to do, it's not safe.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. In reality, you know. Cause I had a chance to work with my dad for like, for like, I wanna say for like maybe five years. I would work with my dad part time and I would see people at the job who, you know. Cause the job, you were like a blend of these two things, you know what I'm saying?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I would see people that lean more towards, like, treated the job like that. Or a prison guard.

[Ryan Coogler]

Disciplinary.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, Like, I mean, this is like, you know, this is like. Like law enforcement adjacent, you know? You know what I'm saying? Like, and they would. They would kind of bleed over into, you know, like, damn, they're being cops.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And then you had people who had the same job who was way more on the child care provider side.

[Ryan Coogler]

Social worker. Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Like. Like, you know. You know, really, like, trying to raise the kids.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

My pop was maybe too far that way. You know what I mean?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Never really got promoted.

[Ryan Coogler]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? Like, I kind of cared too much. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, you know, like, I tried to. I tried to be like my dad while I was there. It was a really tough job to have, bro. Like. Like, like. And my dad lost a lot of kids, man. Like. Like so many. So many of the kids my dad was close with would get released and get. And get murdered, you know what I'm saying? Or get released and go to prison. Go to prison for a long time as adults, you know what I mean? And, you know, even before I knew what my dad did, we would walk around in the Bay area in the 90s, and it would be, you know, grown men who would run up to my father and hug him, sometimes break down crying, you know what I'm saying? And I would realize later that, yeah, these were guys that my dad had, you know what I mean, At a place where, you know, not everybody looked after him, you know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

Could have gone either way. And they're all right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

[Ryan Coogler]

And grateful.

[Michael B. Jordan]

For sure. My pop, his career maybe wasn't the greatest at that place, though, you know what I'm saying? For all those reasons. But he looked out for the kids.

[Ryan Coogler]

But that's the impact. Change someone's life.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

So how did you get into the moviemaking after. So you were doing that when you were. Was that your first job with your old man?

[Michael B. Jordan]

No, no. Hell no.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

No, no. I didn't work there till I was 21.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I've been working probably since I was, like, 13, maybe younger, bro. Like. Like my first job was. My first job was I did gardening with my uncle. He had a landscaping company, so I was working with him when I was. When I was. I was like, eighth grade. Ninth grade.

[Ryan Coogler]

That's your dad's brother?

[Michael B. Jordan]

No, he's my dad's cousin.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, okay.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Technically, my cousin.

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

So we call him my uncle.

[Ryan Coogler]

So you go running around with the mowers and stuff?

[Michael B. Jordan]

I was running around with the mowers, bro. Yeah, it Was crazy. It was crazy. My uncle, like. My uncle is like. My uncle is like. You ever watch Breaking Bad?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

My uncle is like, Gus Fring.

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Breaking Bad, like, looks like Giancarlo. Yes. You know, like, the whole get down. And he also owned a couple KFCs.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, really?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. Like, him and his wife owned KFCs, so they owned a KFC in Emeryville. So then as soon as I turned 16, I could work there.

[Ryan Coogler]

You're out of the mowers.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, I was out of the mowers. And they're like. Yeah, exactly. Working for Harmon's Corporation. And then I worked in a couple group homes. Oh, yeah. As a childcare provider. And then When I hit 21, I worked with my pop for a little.

[Ryan Coogler]

Bit, so the group home. So I get. Now that experience. Is that. How much did that inform your. Your perspective in terms of empathy?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Big time, bro. Yeah, big time. I mean, like, incredibly, man. Like. Like, you know, you see how much as human beings, we kind of products of. Of a coin flip.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, like, you have kids in there that. That had no say in. In how their life went, you know, they minors, you know? You know what I'm saying? Like, like, they. Maybe their parent made a decision or.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Or both parents made a decision, or an adult neglected them or harmed them, you know what I'm saying? And now the struggle of their life for the rest of their life from that point is to figure out if that action somebody else took against them is gonna define them, you know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

And how to fight back from within themselves against taking the wrong path, getting stuck in the wrong situation.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. Or harming themselves. You know what I. You know, like, believing that they. Not that they. That they deserve punishment, you know? You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, 100%, bro.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Well, there's a coin flip in Fruitville, too. Like, they. You know, and. I don't know. His poor mother. You know that moment at the end where she's like, I told him to take the train.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

I mean, did you get a sense from talking to her that she lived with that?

[Michael B. Jordan]

She told me that. Yeah. Like what. You know, the movie was, like what? I mean, that movie came together in a real interesting way. Like, I was at USC film school. Right.

[Ryan Coogler]

So after you work at kfc, how do you get to usc?

[Michael B. Jordan]

I mean, the whole time I'm playing football, so I'm a football player.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And I'm taking school serious. So my whole goal is to get a Football scholarship. My parents was middle class.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Like.

[Ryan Coogler]

And you wanted to be what?

[Michael B. Jordan]

I wanted to be a professional football player. Yeah, but. But I figured, you know, I knew that was. The older I got, the more I understood the odds of that happening. Sure, that's good. And I always, you know, I always took care of school, so I figured I'll be. I'd be a doctor. You know what I'm saying? If I couldn't do that, that's a long haul. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, my parents put me in. Put me in good schools, man. You know, private schools in Oakland. In Oakland and Berkeley. And, you know, they would always, like, it would make it. They'll let it be known to me that it was a sacrifice for them to, you know, pay for school. So I had to take.

[Ryan Coogler]

Don't waste it.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Exactly. I had to take the work serious. But I was. But my whole goal was to make it so that they didn't have to pay for me to go to college. You know what I'm saying? So I wanted to get a football scholarship. So I got a football scholarship to a school called St. Mary's College. That's in Morocco. You know, they known for their basketball program. Yeah, but they had a football program back then, too. And I went. I was majoring in chemistry and I was getting my ass kicked. Like, with the labs. Like, the labs and football practice wasn't working out.

[Ryan Coogler]

I could never get chemistry, man. I just could never get the elements or I. It's like math.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I couldn't do it, man. You a comic, bro. You could do it. Yeah, like that shit.

[Ryan Coogler]

You can't. But you can't get. You can't charm your way through chemistry.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You. You're not charming your way through a comedic career neither. But actually scientific.

[Ryan Coogler]

The job is charming. You gotta have the charm to deliver.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You can't get up there on stage and just be charming, bro.

[Ryan Coogler]

You watch a few comics, there's definitely a lot of that going around.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Oh, man. Oh, man. That's funny.

[Unnamed Guest]

But, yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

So, okay, so you're doing the chemistry, you're doing the football, and then all of a sudden, what?

[Michael B. Jordan]

So I'm playing, bro. Like, I'm playing. I'm 17 years old. I'm playing my freshman year, true freshman year. We getting killed, though. I think we go 1 in 11 or something. And then out of nowhere, they drop the football program. Like, the school makes a business decision. We not gonna do this no more.

[Ryan Coogler]

But does that mean you can't go there anymore?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Well, what it meant was If I stayed there, they would have honored my scholarship. But there's no team, so I wouldn't be. I'll be going to school for free with not playing football, you know, that's all right. Well, not there for me at 17 when I'm trying to go to the NFL, you know what I'm saying? Or at least I want the option to try, you know. You know what I'm saying? Like, in my whole, like, once again identity. My whole identity was wrapped up in being a football player.

[Ryan Coogler]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

So I was like, well, I'm gonna walk around on campus and do what you know. You know what I'm saying? So, like, that guy used to play football. Yeah. Yeah. So I got a scholarship offer from a couple schools, one of them being Sacramento State. Took that. Cause I wanted to stay close to home. And I had to switch my majors. It was clear to me that chemistry wasn't gonna work out. So I went to finance. Oh, yeah. And while I was at St. Mary's College, it's a liberal arts school, they make you take English classes. I took a creative writing course my spring semester, the semester that they dropped the program. I'm going through all of that. And I was in a class with a teacher named Rosemary Graham. And she read something that I wrote and told me I should write screenplays.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

So that's how it happened. She sat me down and said, I think you should go to Hollywood, write screenplays. So I had that in the back of my head, started thinking about it, started writing on my own a little bit. And then I told my girlfriend at the time, who's my wife now.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And then she bought me a screenwriting software.

[Ryan Coogler]

The final page.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Final draft.

[Ryan Coogler]

Final draft, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. And that was when I kind of like. That was when that became like my.

[Ryan Coogler]

Did you love it?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Loved it, bro. Yeah. Like, I found something that, you know, outside of football that I really loved.

[Ryan Coogler]

Cause, like, there's the immediacy of creating the moving story.

[Michael B. Jordan]

It's beautiful, bro. Still to this day, man, like, I don't open that app up.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Until I'm like. Until I'm like, ready to go. Yeah. Because I got that much, you know, reverence for it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

So you don't just around with it. You're just. So when you get the story in.

[Marc Maron]

Your head, you go, yeah, I gotta.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Get an outline and all type of shit before.

[Ryan Coogler]

So then you apply to film at usc.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, I started. What happened was I went to Sacramento State.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

New team, new environment. Yeah. And I immediately got There. And I think Rosemary might have helped me, like, find the people who were showing me how to make movies at that school. It was a big school, kind of like a commuter school at the time. And like. And like, they got different departments.

[Ryan Coogler]

She really believed in you.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, she did, man. Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

That's great. Because, like, it's not. It's not like you should write a short story. I mean, you must have written in a very specific way where it was so visceral to her. She's like, this guy, he's got a sense of it. Yeah. Maybe of telling a story with those bursts of description.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, maybe.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

So she set you up with the film guys over there.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, she helped me. Help me. Help me figure it out. And. And I went there and they had a great professor named Dr. Roberto Pomo. Argentinian American cat. I think he just retired. He was like. He was like, film theory, critical studies. Okay. And then I took production classes with a dude named Stephen Busch who went to USC film school and kind of ran the production department at SAC State, like the one that he learned from.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, okay. So you got a sense of all the sides of it now. Are you watching movies, man?

[Michael B. Jordan]

What? Yes. I mean, that was learned cultural behavior.

[Unnamed Guest]

Sure.

[Michael B. Jordan]

From. All from.

[Ryan Coogler]

But when you get to college, you like when you take the theory class big time, bro. And you're breaking them down.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Breaking them down.

[Ryan Coogler]

Which movie was like. Okay, I get it.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Probably a movie called Within Our Gates. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, that one was.

[Ryan Coogler]

Whose film was that?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Oscar Michaud.

[Ryan Coogler]

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

We had to watch. We had to watch Birth of a Nation.

[Ryan Coogler]

Okay.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Which was. Which was like. Like a fucked up watch as a black person. You know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

Griffith.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

D.W. griffith. And then we watched Within Our Gates the next day.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

I don't know that film.

[Michael B. Jordan]

So, yeah, Oscar Micheaux was. He was our first major notable filmmaker out of the African American community. He doesn't have a counterpart. I can't name a white cultural counterpart for him because before Oscar Micheaux there wasn't. We didn't have it.

[Ryan Coogler]

I think I might have learned something about him at some point, but I.

[Marc Maron]

Never saw the movie.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, he was a beautiful film.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And kind of like the first filmmaker to crowdfund.

[Ryan Coogler]

Okay.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, like. Like when he would go around to folks in the African American community that had money and kind of piece together his budget, you know, and kind of recognize the value of having telling your own stories, especially in a time like. I think it was Made in. And it was made immediately after Birth of a Nation as well.

[Ryan Coogler]

A lot of action.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, yeah. A lot of his movies have been lost and he had a whole era of contemporary age, man. It's a beautiful non fiction series called Hollywood in Black that Justin Simeon did. It talks about Oscar, Michonne and some of his contemporaries. Yeah, yeah. You know, and folks that came. That came after him. But that experience was major. But we also. We also watched a film called Lone Star. We watched the John Salesman. Yeah. We watched Zoot Suit. Yeah, I remember them experiences, man, like the back of my hand.

[Ryan Coogler]

Well, those are, you know, and also independent, like, you know, sales independent, you know, making his own movies. But it sounds like Oscar was. You saw the possibility even historically, to move, you know, within the community and. From the community.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes, sir.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes, sir.

[Ryan Coogler]

And then like, you know, in terms of your chops as a director, like when you start doing shorts and stuff.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Who, you know, who. Who were your influences? Because you got, you know, it's a rare thing where people got a vibe with a camera. You know, you can either be.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You can.

[Ryan Coogler]

You can be efficient.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

But to have, you know, the control that allows you to also express yourself, you know, with the camera as opposed to just with the story, that's something different.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

You work with the same dp?

[Michael B. Jordan]

No, no, I've worked with several. Like. Like, I think I've worked with three professionally. But my last two movies have been with Autumn Arkhipa.

[Ryan Coogler]

But like, it seems like with Hoovervale, you were like, you know, you knew the effect you wanted was gonna come from how you move that camera.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, it comes from everything, but the camera is the main vehicle, you know? You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's essentially like the canvas.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, you know, to the painter. What I liked about filmmaking, the itch that it scratches, like, what I liked about writing was that it was different from football.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

In that it was just me.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I mean? Football is in a. It's like almost like. It almost moves beyond being a team sport. It's almost like paramilitary, you know what I'm saying? And I play wide receiver. For me to even have a chance to catch a pass, so many things have to go right that are completely outside of my control. They got to do it, my teammates and they. Individual battles and the play call that's coming from the coach and not getting hit. Not getting hit. Yeah. So many things have to go right for me to even have the Opportunity. Opportunity to touch the ball and, you.

[Ryan Coogler]

Know, and you gotta be so in it that you can't second guess it 100%.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And I gotta be right once it gets to me, you know what I'm saying? And could be a couple hundred snaps in a game.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, and if a wide receiver has 15 catches, that's like a career. It's like a career day, you know what I'm saying? Like, a good day is like five or six touches, you know what I'm saying? And that's a lot of football for five or six touches, you know what I'm saying? You know, your number gotta get called like 10 times.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know? You know, and don't let the guy guarding you be good, you know? You know what I'm saying? You know?

[Ryan Coogler]

Too many obstacles.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Exactly. But, you know, when I had that final drive, it's just like, oh, shit, it's just me.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? I got the choices, I gotta show up. But also, if this shit sucks, it's on me, you know what I'm saying? And that feeling. But then I am a community guy. I do like the team aspect, you know what I mean? I do like the.

[Ryan Coogler]

Once you get on set.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. Cause it's nice on a day where maybe you injured. Yeah. But you can go out there and help a little bit and your team still wins and you contributed, you know what I'm saying? It's not on you every day. Or if you have a great teammate, you know what I'm saying? And you get to be there and watch somebody great be great and you roll along with them.

[Ryan Coogler]

It's a fully collaborative effort.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. Or those moments where everybody is on the same page, like everything goes right. You didn't even think about it. You know what I'm saying? Everybody's in rhythm. You know what I mean? The guy walks in the end zone without even being touched, you know what I'm saying? It's like, oh, shit. You know, like that feeling so that being on set with a production team scratched that itch.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

So it was like I got the itch scratched I didn't even know I had.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And then I got the itch scratch that I knew. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

So it was a big thing for me to learn, like, what everybody's job was, how everybody's job works, so I could respect them and communicate with them. And that camera, you know, the job of the cinematographer, you know. You know, it's a very important Job. And it's also a thing, like, when you learn, if you say, hey, I want to make movies, you usually end up picking up a camera soon and learning, like, really quickly that you better know what you're doing with that thing. Your movie's gonna suck. You know what I'm saying? And that, for me, was super important. I learned that in film school at usc. Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

So you were shooting on your own, so you could at least know what you want from the dp.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Exactly.

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ryan Coogler]

And that's a. That's an ongoing conversation, right, you know, with a DP on set.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Oh, yeah, man. I was. I was on the phone with her today. I was on the phone, Autumn today. I had to ask her something for press because I was trying to. Because we shot film, and we shot two very unique formats and centers.

[Ryan Coogler]

It's film.

[Michael B. Jordan]

We shot on film. Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, my God.

[Michael B. Jordan]

We shot on 70 millimeter.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, you might.

[Ryan Coogler]

How'd you get. How'd you get two of. You know, he's. He's two characters.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, Mike. Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

I mean, how do you get.

[Michael B. Jordan]

What'd you think of it, bro? Like. Like, did you. Did you enjoy it?

[Ryan Coogler]

Well, it's funny because I was driving back with my girlfriend, and I was talking about what a, you know, great actor that guy is, what a movie star he is. And she was like, yeah, he's so handsome. I'm like, yeah. And you got two of them.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Oh, man, it's funny, bro. I was just looking at these standees that they made for, like, in. In theater, and there's two of them, and people can go in and take a picture. And I'm like, oh, man, I wonder what kind of pictures going to come out of this. Kind of laughing to myself.

[Ryan Coogler]

But you shoot that on film, but you still had to use the technology to make that seamless, right?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, yeah. I had a great visual effects team. I had a guy named Michael Roller, who's my visual effects supervisor. He's born in Germany, grew up out there. He lives here now. And another guy named James Alexander, who's my visual effects producer. We did a lot of research and planning, and we're able to achieve some techniques.

[Marc Maron]

It was a great effect.

[Ryan Coogler]

Before we get to that, though, you kind of put Michael Jordan on the map, right?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Well, Mike B. Yeah. I mean, I knew who Mike was. Like. Like, when I was coming out of film school, I was looking for somebody to play Oscar Grant, you know, and I knew him from his. From his work, you know. You know, from his television career and his Film career.

[Unnamed Guest]

Sure.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Like, he did a film called Chronicle and a film called Red Tails. They both kind of came out in theaters at the same time. He was not the lead at all his movies.

[Ryan Coogler]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

But he popped enough, you know what I mean? And then before that, he was in a lot of really great television shows. He was in the Wire as a kid.

[Ryan Coogler]

That's right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. And he was in a couple of Jason Cadem shows. He was in Parenthood and Friday Night Lights.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, so people knew him like he was bubbling. You know what I'm saying? What I did do was come to him with what ended up being his first chance to lead a movie. Yeah. You know what I mean? To be the leading man. You know what I mean? Leading person, I should say.

[Unnamed Guest]

Sure.

[Ryan Coogler]

And where we started with this before we move on. So you talked to Oscar's mother, and we were talking about that coin flip and about the weight of that. Did you find that that was something she couldn't let go of?

[Michael B. Jordan]

I mean, she mentioned it to me.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, like. Like. So it's clear that's why you. And being a parent now.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, like. Like, I've been in situations where my kids, like, bump their heads and twisted their ankle, and I'm. And I'm. And my mind is, like, racking it. Racking my brain up. Hey, what could you have done better?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Why'd you let him play on that?

[Michael B. Jordan]

You should have been better. You know? You know what I mean? So brutal and, you know, so. For that situation.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, my God.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Like, I know, like, you know, she brought that up. She told me for a reason.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, like.

[Ryan Coogler]

Like, it's a powerful moment in the movie because, you know, you've already seen the arc of what happened, and she's, you know, she's gotta live with that.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And it came from. From her thinking, you know, telling her to do what she thought would be safer.

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah, right. Of course.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. Cause her fear was him getting arrested.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

In the car, he was on paperwork. So, like, you get in the car, one of your homies got a gun on him, and one of your homies is drinking. You know, you go. You go to. You go into big jail, you go to prison, you know, you know, they're gonna violate your parole. So for her, it was like, man, you know, let's alleviate that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, take public transportation. You know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

It's so heavy.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

So I didn't realize that Creed was, you know, your idea entirely in Terms of that, you found that story within the Rocky franchise and.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And you had a little juice from the, from Fruitville.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I mean, what's crazy is I pitched, I pitched Sly before I made Fruitville.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I pitched him while we were, while we were, while we were a couple weeks out from production. We might have been like one week out.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And I flew down to LA and pitched him and Kevin King and his agent at the time, dude named Adam Vinny. I was pitching them, you know, while I was, you know, while I was, while I was getting ready to make Fruitville. Yeah, yeah. And it's Stallone, you know, rightfully so. He, you know, he was like, man, you know, he hired me out and was, you know, signed a couple autographs for me and sent me on my way.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah. You know, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

But, you know, after, after, after we met Fruitville, it was, it was great that, that, you know, Vinnick kept pushing and, and he came and Stallone came around and met with me again and was, it was, it was open to.

[Ryan Coogler]

Working with me and Irwin Winkler.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Irwin Winkler, Yep. I had to go see Irwin in New York.

[Ryan Coogler]

I talked to that guy.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, you did?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

How'd you find him?

[Ryan Coogler]

Well, you know, it's a.

[Marc Maron]

Quite a career.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

I mean, it seems like those guys when it, when, you know, he's made some good movies, but when it comes to business, you know, he kind of, he holds a line, you know. I knew there was some tension for a while with some people. Yeah, yeah. But, but he was good to work with.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yarn was cool with me. Yeah, yeah, like, like both of them were cool with me, you know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

And when you told Jordan that you wanted him to do that, was he like. Hell yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, he was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's tough, man. Cause like, cause like, I mean the reality is like I'm stepping in when it comes to Irwin and Sly. Like I'm stepping into a, you know, like a 40 year old relationship.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, you know what I'm saying? And I'm, you know, it was my job to be, to be respectful to everybody and stand up, you know, and to perform for him, you know what I'm saying? I didn't want to let anybody down. I want to make a fight. They made a bad decision betting on me.

[Ryan Coogler]

Big movie.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, big movie.

[Ryan Coogler]

And then like Black Panther. I mean that movie changed the world.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I don't know about that, but I mean, certainly a lot of people went to go see it and yeah, I'm incredibly Proud of that movie, you know, I'm proud of all of them, bro. Thankfully.

[Ryan Coogler]

Well, like, as you said, when you go into each film, you have something in your mind about it. What was it with Creed?

[Michael B. Jordan]

And with Creed, the question was, it was very much wrapped up into my relationship with my father.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Because his illness was the first time that I saw him, like, truly vulnerable and had to reckon with the idea that the strongest man that I know is. Could possibly die. You know what I'm saying? And I was watching him lose his physical strength and the struggles he was having with that and that concept of. Of. It's a line in the movie with that concept of time taking everybody out, you know what I'm saying? They're being defeated, like, whatever you. You know, time will make the strongest person weak, you know what I'm saying? And, like, is that person. What is their value when they. In that kind of state? Oh, it's rough. But Rocky was my dad's, like, movie hero, you know? So, like, that idea for me was to let me make a movie where Rocky's got to overcome something and to, like, you know, like, I think my dad would enjoy that right now. You know what I'm saying? That's how I started, you know?

[Ryan Coogler]

I want my dad to watch this movie so it feels better.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Exactly, Exactly. It was usually that simple for me, bro. You know what I'm saying? But then it gets complex. Sure.

[Ryan Coogler]

But that was the emotional heart of it.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes, sir.

[Ryan Coogler]

And what about Black Panther? How'd that come to you?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, for that one, man. So that was a different ball game, you know, that was an open assignment, essentially, you know, like, that, you know, and MCU had been going, you know, for a little while. Yeah, I think that was, like, the 18th movie they made.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And did you have to pitch it?

[Michael B. Jordan]

I didn't have to pitch it so much as, like, I mean, kind of like, the thing was, was, like, everybody in town knew they were making it, and they were talking to one of my friends about doing it, you know, as a writer, as a director. Her name's Ava DuVernay. Incredible filmmaker.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Incredible friend. We met, and she, like it, like, instantly kind of, like, became like a big sister for me in the industry. Kind of, like, look like would look out for me and, you know, advise me in situations and, you know. You know, and she let me know she was being considered for. You know what I'm saying? And, you know, they mutually, you know, came to his decision that they weren't gonna do it together. But then she was like, hey, why don't you do it? You know, like, she asked me, and I was like, oh. I was like, you know, on the spot, I was like, I don't know if I could do that ever. You know, like, I was finishing up Creed. I didn't think they would ever call me, you know? You know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah, but it's also, like, a big responsibility, I guess. They all are. But, Jesus, Marvel is expensive.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? A big, expensive movie, and you don't want to, you know, you don't want to fuck it up. You don't want to do it wrong. And there was also a lot of anxiety around making a movie at a place that was that powerful, you know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

What do you mean?

[Michael B. Jordan]

I mean, like, they got a way of doing things.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Okay.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, there's a system.

[Ryan Coogler]

They're churning out that block.

[Michael B. Jordan]

It's like. Like the. From the outside looking in, they had. You know, they had a. They had a. You know, it seemed like. It seemed like a narrative could be built that, you know. You know, that directors might be disposable. You know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I get you in the process.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And, you know, I had a chance to meet with them, and I found, like, they were. You know, it didn't fit the narrative that was outside, you know what I mean? They felt like they would be people who I could work with, you know, like.

[Ryan Coogler]

But also, you had to bring a narrative that hadn't been done.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I mean, it's interesting because, I mean, it's yes and no. Right. Like, the other thing that made Marvel so successful was that they were working with. They had at their disposal just, like, decades of intellectual property. You know what I mean? Like, decades of a built audience and awareness of who these characters are. Maybe not in the cinematic space, but in the narrative space. You know what I mean?

[Ryan Coogler]

With the comics.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. People know who Iron man is and what happens to him and what his story is and who he fights, you know what I'm saying? You know, and that's such a. I mean, we've come to learn in the last, you know, last 10, 15 years, since 2008.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I would say. Which is, like. Was like the big. I would say the big kind of watershed year of comic book movies. And it's kind of like the realization that these things were going to be a force. You know, they have a gold mine at their disposal.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Of stories and creative contributions from really smart people. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

And you could draw from all that.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You can draw from all of that. That was the thing that was so interesting about when I agreed to start to start considering making a movie with them. I said, hey, let me get every Black Panther comic that was ever written.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And it was like, yo, we'll be right with you. And then, boom. You know. You know, I mean, like, it's just. It's just like mountains of, you know, like, like they literally. They literally were like, yeah, no problem. You know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

How many was that?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Oh, man, it was big. Because. Because I don't like reading things digitally.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Because at first you're gonna send it to me as a PDF.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? I ended up checking my email or some shit, like, you know, like on a tablet or whatever. So I'm like, give me the physical thing so I can feel the weight of it so I can read it like I would have read a comic book when I was a kid.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

No problem. Boom. Big ass binder mark, like, you know, you know, like from 1960s.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? To yesterday.

[Ryan Coogler]

Okay.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I mean? And seeing who was writing what and how they drew the pictures and what appearance he was and who he interacted with, you know, so you not. It wasn't Sinners.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? Where I'm starting from the complete blank page, man. Who are these people? What are they names? You know, there's none of that, like, it was like, do you want this character or that character?

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah, this was an established mythology, 100%. Whereas, like, sinners is. It's kind of a real mythology. It's a folk mythology.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. 100%, bro. And with that built in knowledge and fan base comes expectations.

[Ryan Coogler]

Sure.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? And then what's crazy is in the success of that company, you know what I'm saying? Now you got expectations of the comics, and now you got expectations of the movies, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, it's like exponential.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Expect expectation. But you knew.

[Ryan Coogler]

You mean you knew you're making a different movie.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Because like, you know, all those expectations are there, but you're making a black movie.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, 100%.

[Ryan Coogler]

So, you know, there, there, there's there's goodwill in. In an audience that hasn't even been tapped for that other shit.

[Michael B. Jordan]

That's. That's correct. Yeah. And that's kind of what happened? I think.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, like, which was, you know, good on them, bro. Like, like, like for being open to it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And honestly, like, same thing with Erwin and Slo, you know what I'm saying? Being open to a take, that might open it up to like, to like untapped folks. You know what I mean?

[Ryan Coogler]

And that's international.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes, sir.

[Ryan Coogler]

And then it becomes sort of again, there's a community incentive.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes, sir. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You're not wrong, bro. You know what I'm saying? That's also what happened, you know, and that's stuff that we. I can't take responsibility for as a, as a filmmaker when people say, hey man, we going sight unseen on a movie and we gonna buy a theater for a bunch of kids to come see this.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? Like, I seen a trailer maybe, you.

[Ryan Coogler]

Know, but what's interesting is because, you know, it is a mythical space. These are, you know, this is a superhero.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

But because of the nature of that, it is essentially a black film. That no matter what the experience of black people in globally.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

In terms of their history.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

This is something for them 100%. And I would imagine that, you know, that that was probably at least 80% a new audience.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I mean, man on the numbers, man.

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah, but I'm just saying.

[Michael B. Jordan]

But yeah, like, I think. But it's just so interesting, bro, because I just, I just left, like I say Rogers left. Left lunch with, with director Bong.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

We were talking and like the Odyssey.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Howlin Wolf.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, Smokestack Lightning.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Who's that for? Yeah, who's that for?

[Ryan Coogler]

It's a good question with the blues.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? Like, like, but, but the thing is.

[Ryan Coogler]

It'S like 70 to 80 year old white guys.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, but I mean, like, the thing is, is like, it's for who is for sure. But it's also for everybody. That's right. You know what I'm saying? And that for me was that for me was what I realized. Like, look, my daddy would watch Rocky 2 and root for Rocky.

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

My daddy like a black man from Auckland, California. Sure, right.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Something was happening in the magic of this movie that he's rooting. He's rooting for the Italian dude, You know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

Boxing movie.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, exactly. But I don't know the history of Rocky and I'm a kid and I'm like, pop, why you rooting for him? This guy looks like, you know what I mean? You Know, like, why. He's like, oh, man, Apollo is the villain.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know? You know what I'm saying? And I'm like. And I'm like. I'm like, is he. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, what is he doing? That's. That's. That's, you know, and I watch the movie. You know what I'm saying? And I'm realizing, okay, yeah, he's. He's. He's. You know, the camera is with Rocky.

[Ryan Coogler]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

Your dad grew up in a history of movies where there was establishment.

[Michael B. Jordan]

The language. Sure, yeah. You understand, you know, stood. The language. Like when Apollo Creed is calling Rocky out and saying all these mean things about him, right? It's like you're not even thinking about who white and who black. You know what I'm saying? It's like, man, you gotta. You gotta go get this dude. You know? You know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

Well, yeah, but. But when you open it up and you do Black Panther with a mythological universe that, you know, the good guys and the bad guys. Everybody's black.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%.

[Ryan Coogler]

So. So in that sense, it makes sense on a community level.

[Michael B. Jordan]

100%, bro. Yeah. Yeah. No, totally, man. Totally. Because that's. That's. That's also what I grew up with.

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, that's also what I. Also what I grew up with.

[Ryan Coogler]

And the movies for everybody, obviously. But. But the.

[Unnamed Guest]

The.

[Ryan Coogler]

The sort of, you know, the world of it was completely unique to a lot of people.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

You know, I think both, you know, all kinds of audiences, like, for the black community, they're like, we've never seen this shit before. And the same thing with the white kids. They're like, we've never seen. Seen this before. It's a perfect storm.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Oh, man.

[Ryan Coogler]

No one had ever seen that. Oh, so were you scared?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Terrified?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, bro. Yeah, I had. I had a nervous breakdown making that movie, man. Maybe several, you know.

[Ryan Coogler]

Did you keep it to yourself?

[Michael B. Jordan]

My wife knew.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Coming home. What the am I doing?

[Michael B. Jordan]

My little brother. My little brother was my assistant. He knew.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Like, so. Yeah, they knew. They helped me. They held me up, though.

[Ryan Coogler]

Just those crisis of confidence every day, bro.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, I had one of those. I had one of those every day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had some really intense ones, man. Like, it was brutal, bro. Yeah, it was brutal.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And so in the new film, getting back to what we started with this world of, you know, Blues music and black culture at that time, I thought, like, because, like, you know, it's a, it's a story that, you know, if you have a certain type of mind, you kind of know the story a little bit of some kind, you know, that, you know, if you're a blues fan, you know, the crossroads story.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes, sir.

[Ryan Coogler]

And, you know, but you took it a little further up in the history. So now we're, you know, maybe a decade and a half away from Robert Johnson, Charlie Patton.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And, you know, that hasn't really been explored. But the people in this movie knew that story.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes, sir.

[Ryan Coogler]

Where Charlie Patton's guitar becomes an important thing.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes, sir.

[Ryan Coogler]

And then, you know, the sort of mystery of these twins coming back from Chicago and whatever the fuck they did up there to get this money.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And then, like, so, like, you know, structuring that story, if it came all out of your head, right. You know, to make it compelling, to not reveal why they were there or how, what they did in Chicago. But then the big decision is like, who, who's the devil going to be?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

How are we going to do the devil?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And it was kind of interesting because it wasn't really a devil movie, and it's not really necessarily a vampire movie. You know, it's a movie about the power of, the magical power of music and how that, you know, can transcend or interpret or give a voice to pain.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes, sir.

[Ryan Coogler]

But then the human component is, you know, the good and evil of it all becomes sort of, you know, the thing, the through line of it, you know, this guy's got a preacher debt, and then that he's gonna ultimately, you know, choose. I don't want to spoil it for anybody, you know, but, like, you know, that was some serious shit he had to go through to still make the choice he made.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, 100%. 100%, bro. 100%. Like, like, like we found that structure too, man. Like, like, like, you know, I, I, bro, I loved making this movie, man.

[Ryan Coogler]

Like, like, I love period piece. Like, it's great.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I love this movie, bro. And I felt like I felt like I had to earn it, you know what I mean? I feel like I had to go through what I went through with my other movies to be able to have the ability to do this, you know.

[Ryan Coogler]

Well, it's interesting now because there is.

[Marc Maron]

A world of black horror.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Oh, yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

That, you know, is. Gives a lot of freedom to however you want to do it.

[Michael B. Jordan]

100%, bro.

[Ryan Coogler]

You know, like Jordan, you know, he does his thing.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. And then beautiful movies.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And weird.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Oh, yeah. You know, 100%.

[Ryan Coogler]

You know, he's like a abstract thinker, and he's willing to take risks. So, you know, you've got that. You know, there's an audience for it.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes, sir.

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes, sir.

[Ryan Coogler]

So what, you know, what were you saying about loving it, about that? What were the challenges? Because it did give you an opportunity, too, to explore, you know, not necessarily, you know, characters that we've known a bit before. And. And so, like, I guess on some level, when you're. You said you were piecing together the story that. That the. The idea of music had to go all the way through it.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like. Like, so. So back to family, man. I had an uncle.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Who was from Mississippi.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And he was like, the oldest man in my family that I was around consistently.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

His name was Uncle James. James Edmonds. Blues music was all he would listen to.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, like, I was just. Get down. You know what I mean? And he would come home from work, he'd put a Giants game on San Francisco, Giants baseball game on TV or on the radio and have a blues record going.

[Ryan Coogler]

Like, which ones? How old?

[Michael B. Jordan]

All of them. All of them. I mean, his guy was Aubrey King.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. You know, like, but. But he listened to all of them, man. Like, and I associated these songs with him.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? Like, it wasn't my blues. Wasn't my cup of tea.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And that word has, like, a connotation that, you know, kind of became associated with old things. And also, like, it didn't feel like. It didn't feel like it was mine. You know what?

[Ryan Coogler]

I think it also got. I think there was a period there where it, you know, in some ways became white. You know, in terms of, you know, once I think the. The black community moved away from it for whatever because it represented something old.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Then, you know, all the white guys took it well.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. Like. Like, I mean, this movie, bro, like, we could talk for hours.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Like, I. I didn't realize how deep you are into it. Like, but. But. But, you know, like, in my research, I discovered that, you know, and people talk about this all the time. It's not, like, my discovery. You know what I'm saying? People will speak to this often, but you could make the argument that genre is an invention of racism. You know what I'm saying? You could make. The categorization of different types of music is essentially like a form of segregation.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, interesting.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Like you know, it was at the time music was commodified.

[Ryan Coogler]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? Like, it was a time where it was built on segregation, you know. So how do I tell people that this music is made by black people? Well, I call it a race record.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And like, that. That kind of like, you know, race records became, you know, blues or soul or rhythm and blues, you know what I'm saying, In these categorizations.

[Ryan Coogler]

And then they were eventually appropriated by the white culture.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Appropriated or. You know, and re. Appropriated, you know, like, it's really.

[Ryan Coogler]

Well, that's interesting because, you know, the main vampire, the devil vampire, he's appropriating the souls of black people. Yeah, in a way.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, in a way. But also, like, they also appropriating him once they, you know. You know, once they become, you know, like.

[Ryan Coogler]

Sure. The eternal life racket.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But, you know, it's like, no spoilers. But it's also a scene where they sing in his music.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I mean? You know what I mean?

[Ryan Coogler]

And half of it comes from there.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Exactly. That was the whole. For me, when I realized, even the narrative, which is true in part, you know what I'm saying? That blues came from the continent of Africa.

[Unnamed Guest]

Sure.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? Totally accurate. But what we recognize as Delta blues and American blues also, it was contributions from the Choctaw community and contributions from the Irish. You know what I mean? Contributions from, you know, like. Like, it had all of these contributions.

[Ryan Coogler]

The rhythms change.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes. And all these people had had a thing in common.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

That they had been stepped on.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I mean? And made to feel less than and come off, you know. You know what I'm saying? Like, so that. That idea for me, when I delve into the research of this music that my uncle loved, you know what I'm saying? Like, I was like, oh, like. Like. Like, this is. This is so profound. And also, like, everything that I ever loved that came out of popular culture came from this directly. Like. Like, I could draw. I could draw a straight line back to. You know, there's a reason I heard Nirvana and liked it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Immediately. You know. You know. You know what I'm saying? Like. Like, it's because it's what my uncle would play for me.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Well, you know, just saying about white people, you know. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

But it all comes to. Yeah. The same. The same source point.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

I had I had Taj Mahal in. In here once. And, you know, like, because I, you know, there is a. You know, there's a through line. He's a. You know, he's a historian, you know, really. And I had this old guitar that. It was just an old Sears guitar that I used to have, just as a, you know, something to look at.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

It was strung up. It played. Right. And we were talking about Skip James, so.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Oh, you talking about a hard time killing flu.

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah, well, I'm talking about, like, the. I don't remember what song was, but Skip James, you know, he had, like, some sort of. There was a certain guys in. In that had a direct sort of, you know, rhythmic and. And tonal.

[Michael B. Jordan]

From the continent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

[Ryan Coogler]

Maybe Senegal or someone.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, yes. It's all of that. Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

So, like, I'm talking to. I'm talking to Taj about.

[Michael B. Jordan]

They call it senegambia.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

It's very specific.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes, sir.

[Ryan Coogler]

But it made it all the way through.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, yeah. I mean. I mean, it was. It was not, you know, in a. In a. In a. In the car of human history, but it was yesterday.

[Marc Maron]

That's right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

So. But Taj just picks up. He picks up that old guitar.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Three seconds, right away. Go all the way back. All the way back to the continent. And I was like, oh, my God, 100% of magic, man.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, 100%.

[Ryan Coogler]

So. So you were aware of all that.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I was not like.

[Ryan Coogler]

I mean, you became aware, and so that was all informing how you were going to handle this. But why twins, though? Why'd you.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Oh, that's so. That's such a great question. So. Oh, man. Bro. All right, all right. So it's somewhat of an inside joke with people who know me.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Because I have. My only phobia is doppelgangers.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

It's the only phobia I have.

[Ryan Coogler]

It's a weird one.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Super weird one, bro.

[Ryan Coogler]

Like someone that looks like you.

[Michael B. Jordan]

It's the concept of the doppelganger, like the double, that is a harbinger of doom.

[Unnamed Guest]

Okay.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? And what's extra crazy about this is my family has a ton of twins. You know, like, my mom has identical twin older sisters. You know, one of them is my godmother. You know what I'm saying?

[Marc Maron]

Her identical twin.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. They live right next door to each other to this day. And I got cousins. My Uncle James.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

His granddaughters are fraternal twins.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what? I mean, and one of them just gave birth to fraternal twins this year.

[Ryan Coogler]

Wow.

[Michael B. Jordan]

So it's a constant in my family. But, yeah, I wanted to deal with the archetypes with this movie, you know what I mean? I wanted it to feel like a blues song, right. Like something that you heard before, even though you heard it for the first time. So I put a lot of archetypes, and I was kind of obsessed with this idea of the. The. The. The. The. The gangster identical twins, because that's like a thing.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know. You know what I'm saying? Like, that exists in a lot of different cultures, you know?

[Ryan Coogler]

Okay.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, like, so you got in the mythology, but also in real. In life.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

I think there was Irish gangsters in Chicago. What is it?

[Marc Maron]

Moran's brothers.

[Michael B. Jordan]

It's a thing, bro.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Like. Like, you know, like. Like, they. Sometimes they just sit, you know what I'm saying? Like, oh, the Cray brothers. The Craze. Yeah, they were twins, you know, but you got, like. You know, you got, like, Big Meech and southwest T&BMF out of Detroit or in Long beach, they had some guys called the Twins.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, that came up with Snoop and Warren G. You would hear about them in songs. You know, it's a line and this dj, a Warren G song.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And that's G Funk, Right. It's like G Funk is super bluesy, west coast hip hop. Right. His song ends where he says, I still know how to make them ends. And if you don't believe me, go ask the twins. Like, that's how it ends, you know what I'm saying? We basically saying, I'm still in the streets, and if you don't believe me, go ask the Twins. They even more gangster than me. They'll check my story out, you know what I mean? And I got to know people from other neighborhoods. And if you bring up the twins, every neighborhood has them, you know what I'm saying? Where it's like, oh, yeah, the twins that did, you know, like, it's like, literally, it's a thing in black culture. Thing in white culture, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, it's a thing, like. Yeah, if you in a neighborhood and somebody is lucky enough to be born with a. With a. With a sibling that looks just like them.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

They're gonna automatically have, like, an advantage.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Become local celebrities, you know what I'm saying? Like, and. Yeah, they're gonna run tricks on people and get over, you know. Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

So. So.

[Ryan Coogler]

So then you decide to balance the morality out. Like, exactly.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. Like, for that part, I did a lot of research in identical twins and the psychology of it. And I have two filmmaker friends that are from Northern California. These white dudes that came up in the North Bay, you know, Noah and Logan Miller, they filmmakers, came up as baseball players. First horror Scrabble guys, you know what I'm saying? Broke their way into Hollywood with no nepotism, none of that. Just all grind, you know what I mean? And they kind of like, you know, I would talk to them, and eventually I was like, man, I gotta bring y'all on board officially with this, you know, like. And, you know, they became our twin consultants.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, interesting.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And they worked with me and Mike specifically on, you know, what these guys would be like, you know? You know what I mean? Like, look at the time that they came up, you know, like, their backstory and just the concept of, like, you know, how Noah and Logan describe it is to them. Everybody's weird.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Because, like, they look at everybody, everybody's selfish. You know what I'm saying? Everybody's kind of, like, out to get them, you know what I mean? He was saying, like, when you have an identical twin relationship, it automatically makes you, like, hyper conspiratorial, you know what I mean? Like, you're used to people staring at you, strangers coming up to you, talking to you, you know what I mean? People asking you weird questions. And it was also. It was a funny time when I was talking to them. And I realized whenever I'm with them and in their presence, they always sit right next to each other or they stand side by side.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And I asked them one day, I said, hey, man, do you guys always do that with people? And they say, yeah. And I said, is that for you guys or is that for us? They said, it's for you. You know, they said, as soon as I got a problem with you, we'll split up. You know what I mean? So you could. And get in a position where you can only look at one of us, you know what I'm saying? So I thought that. I thought that was so interesting. Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying?

[Ryan Coogler]

They know the effect.

[Michael B. Jordan]

The effect that they know the effect if they're not. If they're not next to each other. It freaks people out, you know what I'm saying? Exactly. Which one am I talking to? Isn't that interesting?

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah, but.

[Michael B. Jordan]

But. But the concept of growing up like that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know, and what. And what that. And what that does to the psyche.

[Ryan Coogler]

It's funny because, like, I don't. It was pretty seamless because I didn't. Very quickly. I wasn't registering to Michael Jordans.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, it worked. You know, it's just performance, man. Like, it's the subtleties, you know, because it's not, it's not. You could go overboard quick.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know.

[Ryan Coogler]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

But, but, but. And that's the thing about. That's the thing about identical twins. If you know them, nine times out of 10, they, they have completely different personalities. But the differences between them are very subtle.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I mean? Like, they're around each other all the time.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

So like, it's like they basically are the same person.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

But like subtly off.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I mean?

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

But if you ever were to get them alone.

[Ryan Coogler]

Different.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Well, yeah. Then the difference is really. Then the differences really come out.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

And you did that through women.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. And just through structure. Like, like I knew.

[Ryan Coogler]

But in terms of the act.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Let me, let me. Oh, yeah. 100%.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Like knowing who they.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Like, like who they fell in love with.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Really differentiates, like the type of person.

[Ryan Coogler]

Sure. You know, and also a lot of, a lot of pussy eating talk. I didn't, I didn't realize that would be a through line.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, it is. And I'm. Yeah, I mean, it was. We were having fun, man. Like, like, like it's a lot of. It's a lot of.

[Ryan Coogler]

It's sexy, man.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. A lot of talk about all of that stuff. But, but, but that idea of. Because what I was trying to figure out is like, why are vampires so sexy? You know what I'm saying? Like, why are they. Like, why are they synonymous with sexuality?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Why are they the sexy monsters?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Why are they the sexy monsters? You know what I'm saying? Like, like, you know, you don't gotta say a sexy vampire. You just got to say that.

[Ryan Coogler]

Well, there's an intimacy to it.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Exactly.

[Ryan Coogler]

And there's also that it's like a marriage.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yes, sir.

[Ryan Coogler]

Right.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah. Yeah. That's what's, that's what's so great about it. And the thing is, is like, you know, the vampire is synonymous with choice for some reason. You know, like you have to have to be invited in. You know, they bite. Where they bite. They bite the neck.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know? You know what I'm saying? Like, it's a sexual situation. You know what I mean? You got to get close to somebody to do that, you know, with just a weird question.

[Ryan Coogler]

Now the pussy Eating thing.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Did you. Did you lean on that? Because is it. Is it culturally stigmatized?

[Michael B. Jordan]

Nah, man. Like, like, like, like, like, like. Honestly, honestly, bro, where that came from is I had big cousins.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

That was like the twins.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know. You know what I'm saying? And that's how. That's the type. That's the type of things they talk about. Talk about, you know what I'm saying? And the whole thing was like, he's, you know, he's. He's out. His dad's a preacher.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? He's the oldest. He got a bunch of little sisters. So what are his cousin. Whatever. His other. What's the kind of shit his other cousins are gonna tell him about life? Sure. You know what I mean?

[Ryan Coogler]

You know what I'm saying?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

And smoke. The whole idea behind him and his performance was that he's like a grandpa.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know. You know what I'm saying? Like, he's the caretaking twin, right.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

The other twin is a pimp.

[Ryan Coogler]

Right?

[Michael B. Jordan]

He's like, he's like hyper sexualized. And if you ever meet those guys, like, what makes. What makes those guys those guys is they, they, they. They kind of like have a hyper understanding of what the world is like from a female perspective. You know what I mean? Like, that's how they are able to convince women to do crazy shit.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, so the whole, like, the whole idea was he would give him, like, very usable, accurate advice, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, for that. For that type. For that type of situation.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael B. Jordan]

That's where the. Oh, that's idea coming from. Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

I think the whole thing works really, really well. And the. And I thought that the vampires were sufficiently creepy.

[Michael B. Jordan]

That's good.

[Ryan Coogler]

And. And I don't want to spoil the. The beat at the end, you know, even. Even during the credits, but. Okay, so you. It's a, It's a. Well, because people who like the blues are gonna be excited by it. But who did. Did he play that last bit?

[Michael B. Jordan]

He did.

[Ryan Coogler]

That's him on the guitar on that last song.

[Michael B. Jordan]

The very end. Yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Holy. Because, you know, I've seen him a few times. I've had him in here. I was just playing with his pick yesterday. Right there.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, that's him. Yeah, that's him. Acoustic. Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, my God.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Who's on that electric lead on the credits? On the electric. Okay, so, so that. So that. That is. That is Eric Gills. Yeah. And also Kingfish.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, yeah. I just, I just had met Kingfish.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Kingfish, yeah. Scene. But, but that's Eric Gills you listening to there?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. Oh, wow.

[Michael B. Jordan]

But that, that last scene, that's who, who you asking it about?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Oh, good.

[Michael B. Jordan]

No adjustments. That's. That's him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

He's great.

[Michael B. Jordan]

It's weird. It's weird seeing him play that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Well, you know, they, they, they all started there 100%, you know, but like he, you know, as he's gotten older, he, he's, he's become more of a showman, that his licks are different. You know what I mean? He'll just pop a couple off and then he'll just smile. Yeah, that's it.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Coogler]

Well, it's great talking to you, man. It's a good man.

[Michael B. Jordan]

Likewise, bro. Thank you, bro.

[Ryan Coogler]

I hope it does well for you.

[Michael B. Jordan]

I appreciate that, man.

[Marc Maron]

There you go, folks again. Sinners opens in theaters this Friday. Hang out for a minute. One thing that's not going to surprise you if you're a regular listener. We love la.

[Ryan Coogler]

Why wouldn't we?

[Marc Maron]

It's been the home of the show for 16 years and I've lived here for longer than that.

[Ryan Coogler]

And when you come to visit Los.

[Marc Maron]

Angeles, no matter how long you're here.

[Ryan Coogler]

You'Ll be able to take in a lot of stuff I love about this place. Like there's the food. There are seemingly endless options from all.

[Marc Maron]

Sorts of cuisines and dining styles.

[Ryan Coogler]

Yeah, you got B. Wally vegan AF out here in Eagle Rock. You got Crossroads for the high end, vegan food. A lot of stuff shopping. Here you go to give me, give.

[Marc Maron]

Me records if you want some records or amoeba records or permanent records. And of course, there's no substitute for.

[Ryan Coogler]

LA when it comes to the best entertainment. Get over to Hollywood Boulevard and see.

[Marc Maron]

A star ceremony on the Walk of Fame. Or come see me and dozens of.

[Ryan Coogler]

Other other comedians at the Comedy Store, which has world class comedy every night. LA, it's like 10 cities in one. If you come visit, I guarantee you'll love LA as much as I do. Find more ways to love [e-mail] all.

[Marc Maron]

Right, people, we've got another Ask Mark Anything episode for full Marin subscribers dropping tomorrow. These are bonus episodes where I answer the questions sent in by you. Like this one. As you prepare to direct your film.

[Ryan Coogler]

What personal challenges do you anticipate facing?

[Marc Maron]

How do you plan to tackle them? Anxiety and impatience.

[Ryan Coogler]

I think the biggest challenge is going.

[Marc Maron]

To be to afford myself the confidence.

[Ryan Coogler]

And space to know when a take is done, to know when a set is set up, to know what I'm.

[Marc Maron]

Looking for, and not to be freaked out all the time just to to.

[Ryan Coogler]

Realize that I put a good team.

[Marc Maron]

Together and hopefully I will to afford.

[Ryan Coogler]

Me the space necessary to just focus.

[Marc Maron]

On directing the film. Get the new Ask Mark Anything episode tomorrow. Sign up for the full Marin go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go. This podcast is hosted by Acast. Here's some classic Marc Maron Guitar Noodling Boomer Lives Monkey La Fonda Cat Angels Everywhere. And that was fucking take two, man.