Episode 1639 - David Harbour

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron: Episode 1639 - David Harbour

Introduction

In Episode 1639 of the "WTF with Marc Maron" podcast, hosted by Marc Maron, David Harbour joins for a deeply introspective and intellectually stimulating conversation. Known for his role as the Sheriff Jim Hopper on "Stranger Things" and his ventures into the Marvel Universe, Harbour engages with Maron in a candid discussion that delves into topics ranging from mental health and therapy to the impact of technology on human relationships.

Reconnecting and Setting the Tone

Marc Maron opens the episode with enthusiasm upon reuniting with David Harbour, highlighting their previous engaging discussions. The conversation quickly shifts to the evolution of content consumption, with Maron expressing his preference for long-form audio podcasts over the fragmented nature of modern digital media.

Marc Maron [00:58]: "Long form interaction, long form conversation and long form comedy... it's still the most human sort of pastime."

The Impact of Technology on Attention and Empathy

A significant portion of the discussion centers on how contemporary platforms like TikTok and Instagram have influenced human attention spans and creativity. Maron criticizes the corporate-driven push towards shorter content, arguing that it undermines genuine artistic expression and deep human connection.

Marc Maron [06:15]: "It's a fucking gift because I believe that long form interaction... is something that the brain has to settle into."

David Harbour echoes these sentiments, emphasizing that while technology offers unprecedented connectivity, it often does so at the expense of meaningful interactions and empathy.

David Harbour [64:27]: "And like, you say, building community, building empathy is the antithesis of what that phone is."

Therapy, Self-Exploration, and the Concept of 'No Self'

The conversation takes a personal turn as Maron discusses his experiences with anxiety and his reluctance to rely solely on medication, juxtaposing his struggles with the therapy approaches David Harbour employs. Harbour introduces the concept of "no self," rooted in Buddhist philosophy, exploring how shedding the ego can lead to a more authentic existence.

Marc Maron [18:25]: "I don't have a problem with it. I get it. It's comedy."

David Harbour [21:31]: "What about the idea of no self?"

They delve into the challenges of embracing vulnerability and the fear of intimacy in an age where superficial connections are prevalent. Maron shares anecdotes about his cat's anxiety when he's away, using it as a metaphor for his internal struggles with self-identity and authenticity.

Marc Maron [19:48]: "So I project all of my feelings about Prozac onto the cat. But I think the moment of profundity is..."

Art, Performance, and the Search for Truth

Maron and Harbour discuss the role of art and performance in fostering community and empathy. Maron reflects on his commitment to stage work as a form of community service, providing a safe space for individuals feeling isolated in the modern digital landscape.

Marc Maron [61:11]: "It brings community... and these are people that are terrified and nervous... but they know I'll speak to it and speak to the sources of my own kind of struggle."

Harbour adds that acting and performing allow individuals to explore and express their multifaceted selves, counteracting the one-dimensional personas often portrayed in digital media.

David Harbour [75:16]: "But you could look at the world and say like, oh, it's a shit show of capitalist swagger on who's going to be on top."

The Future of Humanity and Empathy

Towards the latter part of the episode, the duo contemplates the future of human relationships in an increasingly technologized world. They express concern over the erosion of empathy and the potential descent into societal barbarism as articulated by Hannah Arendt.

Marc Maron [62:52]: "The death of human empathy is one of the earliest and most telling signs of a culture about to fall into barbarism."

Both Maron and Harbour agree that fostering genuine human connections and maintaining empathy are crucial battlegrounds against the isolating forces of technology.

David Harbour [86:20]: "And at this point I'm thinking all we should... like, I think."

Reflections on Personal Growth and Artistic Integrity

In a reflective close, Maron shares his admiration for Al Pacino's unwavering pursuit of truth in acting, contrasting it with his own struggles to balance creativity and personal vulnerability on stage. This introspection underscores the episode's recurring theme: the quest for authenticity amidst external pressures and internal demons.

Marc Maron [81:14]: "He never looked at it, you know, until he had to make compromises... he never looked at it as anything other than a pursuit of truth."

David Harbour emphasizes that art serves as a frontline in the battle to preserve humanity, using his platform to bridge gaps and foster understanding through shared vulnerabilities.

David Harbour [86:25]: "Like, I have to be effective... that's the battlefront and it's the skill set that I have too."

Conclusion

Episode 1639 of "WTF with Marc Maron" featuring David Harbour is a profound exploration of modern existential dilemmas, the role of art in society, and the enduring human spirit amidst technological encroachment. Through their heartfelt dialogue, Maron and Harbour illuminate the importance of maintaining empathy, authenticity, and community in an ever-evolving digital age.

Notable Quotes

• Marc Maron [00:58]: "Long form interaction, long form conversation and long form comedy... it's still the most human sort of pastime."
• David Harbour [21:31]: "What about the idea of no self?"
• Marc Maron [62:52]: "The death of human empathy is one of the earliest and most telling signs of a culture about to fall into barbarism."

Closing Remarks

As the episode wraps up, Maron promotes his upcoming HBO special and upcoming tour dates, while also encouraging listeners to subscribe to WTF+ for bonus material. The engaging and thought-provoking conversation between Marc Maron and David Harbour leaves listeners reflecting on their own relationship with technology, empathy, and the search for self.

Transcript

[Marc Maron]

Sometimes when I travel now, I get to a place and I don't really want to do much of anything while I'm there. I want to be there, but I don't feel all the pressure to do things, you know, like I was in Chicago and I've been in Chicago a lot. And, you know, I used to go to Chicago and I do go eat the meat, I go to the museum and I go all to, you know, all the interesting places. But the last time I was there, I was just sort of like, dude, you've done it. Just you like the city. Just, you know, enjoy the poetry of the place. And look, if you go away and decide to do nothing now, you can still host your home on Airbnb while you're away and not have to worry about doing anything. That's because a co host can do all the hosting for you. You can get a high quality local co host to take care of your home and your guests. They manage all the hosting details and even send messages to your guests. Then they're available to be on hand when your guests are at your place just to help out with anything that might come up. So do nothing while you're away and still make some cash. Find a co [e-mail] host all right, let's do this. How are you? What the. What the Buddies? What the Nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Marin. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. It's called wtf. I imagine some of you have been here before. Nice to have you back. Today I have David Harbour back, which is always exciting. I love that guy. I love him. We talked years ago and it was. It was great. It was like a ride. I'm like, I can get on this. I can get on this roller coaster. I grew up with a similar roller coaster in a. In a slightly different theme park. Let's do it. Let's get in it. I was just thrilled to have him back. And, you know, you know him. He's, you know, he's the. The guy, the sheriff for on Stranger Things. And, you know, he's. He did the show a while back. It was episode 921 in the Archives. He's been part of the Marvel universe since the Black Widow movie. And now he's in the new. The new Marvel movie. Thunderbolts. I like them. Get a kick out of them. So look, you guys, you know, we live in an age this. This will be known as the when is everyone going to Shut the fuck up Era. Just people blathering Everywhere I, you know, I get overwhelmed. And I don't know if I've talked about this specifically, because, look, we do almost an analog thing here. Here at WTF Central, me and Brendan do this thing. This is what we do. We do an audio podcast, have from the beginning, we're audio guys, but in the world we live in now, it's almost like analog. And I always felt that, as did Brendan, that this was the most intimate and most engaging format and remains. So that's why we still do it this way, because audio is, is kind of magic. There's an intimacy to it that, you know, you live with it in your head. And the way you engage with audio, especially talking, is very different than video. But it's also. We are not on the big battlefield of, you know, memes and clips and everything else. And there's a certain insulation in that, but it's sort of a freedom. It's a freedom that, you know, we don't care about being clipped, you know, and having reels and bits and pieces of content, as they call it, to go up online so people can flip through it or engage with the 30 seconds, a minute or two. We're not even on that playing field at all. And it's a fucking gift. It's a fucking gift because I believe that long form interaction, long form conversation and long form comedy, which is what I do, is still the most, most human sort of pastime. It's something that the brain has to settle into. It's something that you have to take in. It's something you have to follow and engage with in a full way, you know, all the way through. You know, and there's this, this idea that I, I push back against. You know, I talk to a lot of young comics who come in here and they do specials, but they're doing specials that are a half hour long, 40 minutes long, 33 minutes long, 38 minutes long. And when I got into the game, you know, you did an hour. That was your job, you know, you were a headliner. You do an hour, 50 minutes to an hour to close the show. When you do a special, it's an hour. And as time goes on, because of this idea that, that we don't have the attention span anymore to watch long form anything, that the attention span of people because of data accumulated through algorithms, then made into a generalization about human beings ability to pay attention, to engage with something for more than a certain number of minutes is sort of like the precedent set. And I think it's bullshit. And I Have a really hard time knowing that this is the adjustment. Artists are making comics, whoever, musicians, people who talk for a living, that it's been drilled into our head that, you know, people just can't do it anymore. They. They can't do it. They're distracted. Their attention span is. Is. Has been truncated. Shortened. And the truth is, is that it is those delivery systems, those platforms, the way that. That. That business is structured that has caused that. And I don't think it's inability for people to pay attention to things. It's a matter of them wanting to or being engaged with it. But because everyone's accommodating this idea that you got to keep going shorter and shorter, that's become the requirement. And I had this realization. I may have talked about it in conversation with somebody, but I don't think I explored it on the show. And it came up in my thinking when I was talking to an NPR host in, I don't know, Illinois or somewhere that, look, you know, when we talk about crowd work, comics, or when you flip through your phone and you see all these bits and pieces of comics intentionally doing crowd work for the reason to be recorded at a club so they can post their clips to show people what they do, which is, you know, basically be in the moment and make fun of audience members. And again, I've said this before. Look, it's a skill set that you should have. If that's you. Like, if. If that is what you do is like, this is my mode of expression. This is me expressing myself. So what do you guys do? How long you been together? What is that hat? You know, are you guys married? Where do you. Where do you come from? Like, if that is. And reacting to those questions to strangers is. If that's, you know, that's your. That's your expressive thing, that's your talent, that's what you want to say to the world, then fine. I don't have a problem with it. I get it. It's comedy. And one of the great things about being a solo artist or an artist at all is that, you know, you create the space for yourself to do what you do, to get what you. How you express yourself out there. And whatever it may be, you know, that is part of the freedom of it. I mean, that's why I did it. Like, you know, I can. It doesn't matter what I do up there. It's my stage. And as long as I get laughs occasionally, then I'm doing the right thing. But anything outside of that, I can do whatever the fuck I want to do? You know, in terms of that stage, it's a rare stage, you can sing, you can dance, you can act out, you can do whatever you want. The only basic requirement is that you get laughs. But if that's what you choose to do to express yourself, it should be yourself that you're expressing. And the idea that comics, I would think, get into it for that, but now are beholden. Like the idea that they have a freedom to express themselves, but yet they have to figure out how to do it quickly and in a way that will pop on a reel, in a way that honors the speed and pace and Delivery system of TikTok or Instagram or any of these platforms. There's a context there that is a huge corporate endeavor that primarily is to keep people on that thing, on that platform. And you're just serving those masters to do that so they can do that. Yet you're bending your entire will and creative sense of self to that format, which is short and has to grab people. And the more people you grab for your short little thing or you shitting on that guy who's got a weird haircut is what determines whether or not you are successful or that you may possibly make a living. But there's no freedom of mind in that, there's no real expression in that, other than maybe being quick witted and having a spontaneous moment, that is, who cares? But the idea that you can do whatever you want and that some of these folks of any type of art form thinks they're doing that, but yet you're bending yourself to this context to fit the expectations of the platform, delivering it. And with the, with these, with these platforms, it's quick and if it just goes by and all you're looking for is people to go hahaha quick and get a follower. So you are just an appendage in a way. You are just, you know, part of this, the advertising effort, the sort of onslaught of these bits and pieces to keep people engaged with this larger corporate interest. And so whatever you think is the freedom of being expressive and all this freedom you have to do whatever you want and put it out into the world becomes very relative to the world of those platforms. And it is innately not a long form world, not a storytelling world, not a world, you know, in terms of comedy at this point in time that really kind of shows people, you know, who you are, what your ideas are, you know, where you're coming from. I mean, there's other people that do that kind of stuff, but arguably they're doing it in a very limited format, too. And everybody is now a broadcaster. And everybody is sort of operating in this. This zone of mania that is required to focus on broadcasting. Whether it's sort of a hypothetical vulnerability or aggressive cultural criticism, there is a zone that people have to get in to be on a mic. You know, I'm in it now in my own way, but I just think that the cultural conversation is just this kind of sort of, you know, never ending, infinite manic babbling that comes through you in little bits and pieces in order to grab your attention for corporate interests. And I think I've kind of discussed this a bit with Chris Hayes when I talk to him about his book, is that people are perfectly capable of maintaining an attention span for as long as the thing that they are interested in continues to engage me. So any generalization based on millions of people, you know, watching one thing that gives data through an algorithm about how many people tuned out or didn't watch all the way through, it's not relative to what people can really pay attention to or how they can engage. But if we keep just operating at the behest of that, we will just become these kind of reactive monkeys in a cage looking for dopamine hits off of short bursts of bullshit. And I just think that it is the enemy, and it is a very specific corporate enemy in the form of platforms designed to maintain your attention to personal creativity, diminishes your depth, diminishes your ability to express yourself honestly or the way you want to. Anyway, I don't know. It was on my mind. So, look, it's the final leg of my tour leading up to my HBO special taping. I'm in Toronto at the Winter garden this Saturday, May 3rd, for two shows. Burlington, Vermont. I'm at the Vermont Comedy Club for two shows on Monday, May 5th, and one show on Tuesday, May 6th. Portsmouth, New Hampshire. I'll be at the Music hall on Wednesday, May 7th. Then it's my HBO special taping at the Bam Harvey Theater in Brooklyn on May 10th for two shows. Two shows there. Go to wtfpod.com tour for all my dates and links to tickets. Most of those shows are pretty close to sold out. I think they're still in Ports. Some tickets in Portsmouth, maybe a couple tickets for the taping, but. But I don't know. But go check it out if you're interested in coming. Okay, look, David Harbour and I have done this sort of deep, deep word jam before, Deep thought jam, deep talk jam. And it was a Thrill to have him back. Thunderbolts opens in theaters, including IMAX. Tomorrow, May 2nd. This is me reconnecting with David Harbor. All right. So it's been a. A long time since our last appointment.

[David Harbour]

Seven years or something, right? I know. I can't believe it.

[Marc Maron]

How. How was your progress? I mean, I want you.

[David Harbour]

Aren't you gonna, like, ask me to cough and you put the rubber glove on?

[Marc Maron]

No, no, no. That's a different kind of.

[David Harbour]

Sorry, sorry.

[Marc Maron]

I'm doing the. I gotta make some sense of some shit, man.

[David Harbour]

Oh, man. Good luck to us.

[Marc Maron]

Well, here's what I was gonna tell you about the cat.

[David Harbour]

We hire a professional.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah, the professionals. Do they really know? I don't know anymore. Like, I can't.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, that's a great question. How long you been in therapy?

[Marc Maron]

Well, I. I wasn't in therapy. You know, I. I've been in and out because as I get older, I realize, like, if I'm going to go, I got to know exactly why I'm going. I'm like, I'm not going to.

[David Harbour]

Around the opposite.

[Marc Maron]

Really? Yeah.

[David Harbour]

I'm Just Figure it out. Just keep me in the whole time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I. I just found that after a while, if you're a smart person, you know, what are you really using them for? You know, they're just like.

[David Harbour]

Well, I guess it's some kind of self exploration. Right? It's an hour of your day where you're going into these recesses of your psyche where you don't really want to.

[Marc Maron]

Go alone, but don't you do that anyways or don't wanna go alone?

[David Harbour]

Yeah, yeah. And you wanna have at least someone intelligent who's navigated those waters.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. Okay.

[David Harbour]

But.

[Marc Maron]

Okay, let's say you do that, right? And then, you know, you find something out. And the idea is that that's proactive. It's gonna help you. How is it not just, like, when I make discoveries that imply something about my behavior, the next step should be like, well, I'm gonna try to change that. It just becomes like, oh, yeah, I had that memory. That was good.

[David Harbour]

I mean, theoretically, there are different types. There's like the CBT version, which is the cognitive behavioral thing, which is where you're actually going in to fix a problem. And then there's what I like, which is like deep Freudian psychoanalysis, where you're just going into weird Eddies and whirlpools of the psyche.

[Marc Maron]

What, is there one guy left doing that in New York? Are you with the one guy what is he, 90?

[David Harbour]

Yes. And he has me lie on the couch and he's behind the whole thing, man. It's like I'm back in 1920s Vienna.

[Marc Maron]

It's just like. That's just nostalgic, David.

[David Harbour]

Hard disagree. I mean, if we're gonna do something which we both agree might be worthless, you might as well do it in the most worthless way possible.

[Marc Maron]

The classic.

[David Harbour]

The classic, yes. Like, let's go. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

All right. So you're doing that and you're doing like, you know, he doesn't talk much.

[David Harbour]

Yes, exactly. But I mean, it's really the mystery, right? Like, that's what you're getting into is the unconscious or the subconscious, which isn't conscious.

[Marc Maron]

Do you feel like you get there? Do you feel like you really get there? I mean, like. I know. That's the idea.

[David Harbour]

My life improved in the eight years I've been with this new guy. My life has improved. Yes.

[Marc Maron]

No zooms with the old man.

[David Harbour]

He. When we are out of town, we do phone calls.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah. He was not. I can't. You don't want him on the. On the FaceTime.

[David Harbour]

I've barely seen his face.

[Marc Maron]

Like, I.

[David Harbour]

Yes. You walk in the room and try not to look at him. We do have a momentary interaction of, how you doing? Good. How are you? Which is meaningless and insane.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Because I'm going to get into the fact that I'm not. Okay.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

And then you lie on the couch with him behind you, and you just go into it. And hopefully the idea is that you are unpacking or uncovering things that you don't understand in ways that you don't understand. So it's not the literal of what you're saying, it's how you're saying it or what you're focusing on or. You know what I mean, this is the mystery where hopefully it becomes more impressive than just some guy on the street that you're telling your problems to. And he says, go do this.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but ultimately, that's a 50, 50 proposition.

[David Harbour]

I mean, it is true. And the training is archaic and it is from Vienna in the 30s or what? We don't exactly know what the training is. There's a lot of disagreements.

[Marc Maron]

But don't you already know what's wrong with you? I mean, how old are you?

[David Harbour]

No, that's the sad thing. That is the sad thing. I'm turning 50. And yes, at this point I should. But I still look to someone slightly older to tell me what's wrong with you.

[Marc Maron]

Well, okay. Well, here's What I was. Cause I, you know, I avoided medication, you know, for years.

[David Harbour]

Okay, so you're okay.

[Marc Maron]

But wait, here's the story.

[David Harbour]

I can't. Wait, here's the story. Does it relate to the cat at all or. Yes. Oh, my God, I can't wait for this.

[Marc Maron]

And this. This was. This was profound because, like, okay, for me, I know I'm not depressive, and I'm not really. I have anxiety problems that are debilitating on some level to the point of obsessiveness. Right. So that. That's the trip for me. And I've lived with it because I've always been like, well, you know, I mean, there's a lot of reasons to feel this way.

[David Harbour]

Of course.

[Marc Maron]

And if. If no one el. Then they're the dummies.

[David Harbour]

Of course. You're just alive.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And it's just sort of like. So what if I. If what? The bit I'm doing about it is like, you know, I don't know what resting mind is, because if my brain rests even for a second, it goes like. So you want some things to worry about?

[David Harbour]

I got some stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Let's pop open the folder. None of them could. You know, they could all happen, but they probably won't. But we could work them out, you know, so. So it's catastrophic. Okay, fine.

[David Harbour]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

But I've always been against the SSRIs. Only because.

[David Harbour]

Amen.

[Marc Maron]

You know, I feel them, and I feel what they do. And what I've been saying lately is that, like, I'm not sure that all of my creativity might come from this, like, mining for gold in a river of panic. So.

[David Harbour]

But here's aware of getting rid of your demons. You may be getting rid of the best things about you.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But the big bit he used to do is, like, you don't get rid of them. They're just inside you, and they've been taken hostage. So, you know, people are going, like, how you feel? And you're like, great. And there's some guy inside you go, get me out of here. You know? Anyway, so this here's what happens with the cat.

[David Harbour]

Okay?

[Marc Maron]

And this. It spoke to me. Is that. All right? So I go away, and my cat has anxiety. He freaks out, apparently, like. Like, to the point where, like, it was just. First it was just, you know, vomiting, and now then he gets colitis and he has diarrhea all over the house when I'm gone. And now it's escalated to him beating the shit out of the other cats. Like, I came home from being Away for. For like, three days, and all the cats were hissing at each other. This little fucker had fucked everything up. He's shitting everywhere. You know, it's a disaster. You know, there's piss everywhere and he's just fucking lost his mind. And my vet says, well, we should put him on the Prozac because that'll. That'll help his behavior. Yes. Right. So I project all of my feelings about Prozac onto the cat. But I think the moment of profundity is that my struggle is like, okay, so this cat shits all over everything and fucks with all the other cats to the point where there's total chaos. But don't I want him to be his authentic self? And how is that not relatable? I mean, because it's the same thing with me, right? It's like, you know, like, why would I want to taper or temper?

[David Harbour]

Well, I mean. Okay, I mean, this is where I actually do have a really interesting rabbit hole, wormhole bone to pick with you. You talk a lot about the search for the self, right?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

I mean, that's so interesting to me because I've been on this kick, too, for like 50 years. Right, 50, sorry. Not. I guess not when I was, like two. But the.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's where it got lost.

[David Harbour]

What about the idea? Exactly. What about the.

[Marc Maron]

Of.

[David Harbour]

I mean, what about the idea of no self? I mean, how about the. Have you ever traveled down that path of. The Buddhist path of?

[Marc Maron]

Sure, I'm dealing with it right now. I put my cat on Prozac, and I now see that he has no self. He's lost. He's untethered in a way, but he's not happy.

[David Harbour]

He's not blissfully sort of wandering around.

[Marc Maron]

That's not what I'm projecting. No, no. What I'm projecting is like, who am I? Why did you do this to me before I had purpose? I could beat up on that guy. I could shit on your bed. Who am I without shitting on the bed and beating up on the older guy? Yeah, okay, well, okay, fine. So let's say there's no self. I'll indulge this.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, fantastic. This ancient philosophy for, like, tens of thousands of years, you'll indulge. Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Well, what makes them. Right? They're just trying to deal with problems, too. I mean, the approach is like, well, there's no self. Well, that makes this suffering easier.

[David Harbour]

Correct. And isn't that the point?

[Marc Maron]

Is it?

[David Harbour]

I don't know. I mean, is that what you want.

[Marc Maron]

On your, you know, your gravestone, like. Well, you know, he didn't believe he was anybody, and that helped him. God bless.

[David Harbour]

I mean, I guess it's less. I guess it's more about the attachment to this idea of self that starts to become punishing and neurotic and you're shitting and beating up all the other cats. Like, isn't there some way to realize that the other cats are you as well?

[Marc Maron]

Yes. Okay. When I go down the rabbit hole of no self, what I usually come up with is, like, I have one. He just happens to be seven and.

[David Harbour]

But you really want to keep him around. You don't want him to grow up and be well.

[Marc Maron]

No, I'm protecting him. And it's gone too far.

[David Harbour]

Right, right. Okay, then I think we're in the same boat.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

My therapy may work in a sense to do that as well.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, no, no, I'm sure it does, but what then? What it requires of you. Like, I used to. I had this line where I said, you know, the monster I created to protect the kid inside is sometimes hard to manage. Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but, but so, so the challenge is. And I'm there too, right? I guess it's ego. I mean, I get, you know, the definition kind of works. But for me, if you're aware of that, so the challenge becomes, well, how do I, you know, live in that kid, you know, long enough for him not to be afraid, you know, at this age?

[David Harbour]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Right. So. Because I feel it, you know, I, I, you know, I can be vulnerable in certain situations, usually with strangers for an hour, people I respect, and then they go away. You know, I don't check in with you tomorrow. I'm not gon, like, absolutely. I mean, I might have tried the first time. Hey, what are you doing? Like, what do you mean, what am I doing?

[David Harbour]

I think there was a text or something. Seven years ago, maybe. Hey, I'm in New York.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And that was it.

[David Harbour]

What's up?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Nothing. Nothing. What do you mean, what's up?

[David Harbour]

I'm not going to respond to that. My God. Terrifying.

[Marc Maron]

What do you mean it's terrifying?

[David Harbour]

Two heterosexual older men trying to get a cup of coffee together. Oh, God.

[Marc Maron]

We're doing it.

[David Harbour]

Plays on every.

[Marc Maron]

This is what would happen.

[David Harbour]

But this is for the public, privately, for posterity. Privately. I don't know. What do you want from nightmare? Yeah. Jesus. What are we going to talk about?

[Marc Maron]

I'm glad we nipped that friendship in the bud. Thank God I was carrying that for fucking seven years. That Fucker doesn't like me now, you know? Yeah. Finally. So. So the challenge is, like, how do you live in that vulnerability? And I think that, you know, when you're an actor, you know, you at least are afforded the exploration of, you know, utilizing it or sort of viewing creative ways to sort of stay away from it. But you can. When you're in a situation where the risk is only, you know, failure in front of people. Right. That you can. You can risk that vulnerability in a way.

[David Harbour]

What do you mean?

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean, like, if you're in an intimate relationship.

[David Harbour]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And you get to that place where you're like, I'm finally comfortable and I'm vulnerable.

[David Harbour]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

You know what? How are you gonna trust that person anymore?

[David Harbour]

Sure. Okay. I mean, I'll have to go over that next Thursday with your therapist. Exactly. With the old.

[Marc Maron]

That's all I'm here to do. The old Freudian give you.

[David Harbour]

Let me. That's perfect. I'm gonna start with that one. How are you, David? I'm okay. How are you? Okay. Sit on the couch. I got one from Marin.

[Marc Maron]

If you finally get vulnerable to somebody, how can you trust them?

[David Harbour]

How can you possibly trust them? I mean, it's an interesting conundrum, for sure.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But it. But the self thing, like, if we even just take it to, like, seven years old, it's like that is the real situation is whatever reason you stopped letting that thing develop is because you were afraid of being hurt. Right. Or you didn't want to get hurt. Right. They were too sensitive. We're too sensitive. No.

[David Harbour]

I guess so. Wait, what do you mean? You're saying that you stopped developing the self because of that?

[Marc Maron]

Well, I'm saying that the emotional vulnerability of whatever. It's my belief that at some point your sensitivity or your. Your lack of proper parenting left you, you know, too terrified to. To sort of, like, engage. Exist in the world.

[David Harbour]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

So you build this other thing.

[David Harbour]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

That gets you through other periods of your life or whatever the fuck it is.

[David Harbour]

Yes. For sure.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So what I'm saying is that, like, you know, how do you make that kid not afraid? And the only way is to sort of like, well, come on out, you know, let's just hang out for a little while. And then one thing happens. Like, if my cat looks at me wrong, I'm like, well, that fucking thing doesn't like me. You know? Like, there's a sensitivity to it. So I don't know about the whole no self thing because I'm still stuck in this zone. Of like a very immature self to go back to no self. Jesus Christ. I mean, that. That's like.

[David Harbour]

I mean, you going back. It should be going forward. Right. Like, you're letting go. You're letting go of this idea that you have to protect this kid or that this kid is anything at all.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it's just an idea. But, like, when I feel the struggles that I have as an adult, you have to define them somewhere. Right. I have to like, well, this is because of this. I. I have to do that before I go, like, well, all this is okay.

[David Harbour]

Yes, I. I understand what you're saying.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, what happened? You started the rabbit hole. I know.

[David Harbour]

Now I like so swimming. And I mean, it's. It's such a. It's such a wormhole of now we get into, like, consciousness itself.

[Marc Maron]

Right, Right.

[David Harbour]

And like, sort of meaning and what we're doing in time.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Like what we're doing with our time.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

And that's really the only thing. So I guess the idea of no self allows you, theoretically. This is what I've occasionally had glimpses of.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

To be alive in the present moment.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[David Harbour]

Without. And to exist in a full way without the definition of these things where, oh, I have to be a certain thing. I can just be truly an authentic non. Self in the present moment.

[Marc Maron]

And so if somebody sees you on the street and goes, hey, David Harbour. You're like, not today.

[David Harbour]

I'm shitting on the other cats.

[Marc Maron]

If you'll excuse me.

[David Harbour]

Oh, man.

[Marc Maron]

Not today.

[David Harbour]

Not today.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean, but that. That is, like, why it's perfect to act. Because then, you know, you can just do that. You can. Like, you know what? But there's.

[David Harbour]

That is what I love.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but that. Because it's present.

[David Harbour]

Yes. And it allows you the mask of, you know, you can be your authentic vulnerability, all that stuff, without having to own. This is me.

[Marc Maron]

Right. Or to either be judged or think you're being judged.

[David Harbour]

Correct. You can be as embarrassing as you want, to be.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. And people are like, that was cringy. I know. That guy that I'm playing. He's exactly not a comfortable fella, that guy.

[David Harbour]

I mean, I think that's the thing about personality, though, where I see that people feel pretty rigid in terms of defining personality. Personality of others. And I feel like we have all kinds of creatures within us.

[Marc Maron]

Absolutely.

[David Harbour]

And all kinds of selves or all kinds. You know, we're.

[Marc Maron]

Look, when you're needy, you'll do anything to accommodate just about anybody.

[David Harbour]

Amen. Amen. So.

[Marc Maron]

So all of a sudden you're in something, you're like, who is this guy?

[David Harbour]

Yeah, exactly.

[Marc Maron]

It's working for them.

[David Harbour]

Exactly.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Or any sort of, you know, oh, I never thought I would do that. Or I never thought I would be that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Just put yourself in the right situation and of course you can.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Harbour]

You can do anything.

[Marc Maron]

Like Sidney Pollock and Michael Clayton. People are incomprehensible.

[David Harbour]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[Marc Maron]

And it's totally true.

[David Harbour]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And it's why they can't treat anything effectively or anything, because no one knows.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. I think it's also an effective way that we distance ourselves from each other. It feels very like, you know, we call each other monsters or you're this or you're that. It's just because of the fears of our own potentialities.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I think. Right. And then I think there's a thing with me because I do like, you know, my main performance is being me.

[David Harbour]

Correct. That must be.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[David Harbour]

Extremely difficult.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it's pretty, there's. It's pretty broad, you know, because like I'm doing standup. Right. So, you know that, that's a context.

[David Harbour]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And you know, the only requirement is theoretically to do the job. You should get laughs here and there's. Right, right. But like, I got, you know, my thinking and feelings go much beyond it.

[David Harbour]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

So for me to kind of wrestle it into that and then kind of put it into that mode, it's pretty specific because I'm broad. You know, most guys, you're like, that guy does the thing with the thing. Right? I don't do the thing with the thing. Yeah. Maybe in a.

[David Harbour]

You have the like neurotic kind of.

[Marc Maron]

But I'm more cranky. I'm. I think, like, I have a problem with the word neurotic because, you know, I overthink. But, but like, you know, I'm not, I'm not. I am self aware. So what I'm exploring.

[David Harbour]

And you say neurosis doesn't have self awareness.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I'm saying that as a character, neurosis is a guy that's sort of like, oh, yeah, but I can do this and I can't do. I'm not that guy. You know, I'm like, you know, all right, so this is what's happening and I think it's this. Right.

[David Harbour]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

So I'm going to go all the way through. I think people would rather just have the neurotic thing because then they could put me in a box.

[David Harbour]

Right. Okay.

[Marc Maron]

I think as I get older, I'm just In the cranky box.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, it's true. It's true. I put you in that box.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. So it's not neurotic. I think about things, but, you know, I'm angry. I feel like neurotic is a sort of like illuminated, annoying vulnerability.

[David Harbour]

Illuminated, annoying vulnerability is neurotic. Yeah. Okay, I get you. You prefer crank.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, a little bit, yeah. Okay. It's easier for people to. It's more power palatable. Cranky just comes off as like, wow, this guy does have problems.

[David Harbour]

Right. It's less pretentious. It's more grounded. It's more real. Yeah, I gotcha. I gotcha.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

I like cranky.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But. But so. So the success of. Well, this is a Buddhist problem, right? Is that what we're talking about?

[David Harbour]

I guess so, Yeah. I mean, this is my. This is where it's taken me. Really kind of. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, like, what are you. You going to things?

[David Harbour]

I mean, a little bit. Yeah. Which one of the things I got guys? You know, there's like various monasteries.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[David Harbour]

People. Yeah. Oh, God, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, so you're doing that from college.

[David Harbour]

Who became a monk with Thich Nhaan down in Escondido and go down there and hang out with the monks, do some Escondido.

[Marc Maron]

That's really. I don't know if that's a globally acknowledged place of spiritual retreat. Escondido, is it? Where is that?

[David Harbour]

Just above.

[Marc Maron]

Is it north?

[David Harbour]

Yeah, south of here. So it's like south of here? You know, just above San Diego.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. Very popular with spiritualists.

[David Harbour]

Mecca.

[Marc Maron]

Do they have. Do they all wear sandals and bare shirts?

[David Harbour]

They walk up. They walk up the mountain barefoot? No. It's crazy, though. I mean, they do have a. You know, what's the discipline? It's. It's Zen. Huh. You know they got rattlesnakes and black widow spiders.

[Marc Maron]

On purpose?

[David Harbour]

Yeah. They ship them in from South Texas.

[Marc Maron]

It's part of the.

[David Harbour]

Just to murder people.

[Marc Maron]

These are the obstacles.

[David Harbour]

Here's your no self. Yeah, here you go.

[Marc Maron]

But like, when you get there, all the monks must be like, oh, this is going to be a lot.

[David Harbour]

Absolutely. Just roll their eyes. It's part of the compassion response. It's just like, oh, didn't have time for this. I do tend to show up on. It's funny, like. Cause I have an inn with the monks. They have the days where everyone can come. What a braggarts. I know. Name drop all day and I'll show up on something called lazy days, which the monks have lazy days where they sit around and they just jerk off and eat, drink. I guess I didn't see much of it. I saw the eating portion. But it is. I do show. And I'm like, you guys don't have to do the spiel for me. It's all right. I've read the book. So good. We can just hang out, you know, look at the black widows and stuff. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And the sky.

[David Harbour]

But, yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, it is sort of a journey because I've been on. I mean, I've been on the ancient Indian sort of philosophical tip. I started with the whole Vedanta, which is all about realization of self.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[David Harbour]

And then, you know, meditation on the Upanishads and the ancient Vedas and these things about Brahman and about the fundamental reality. And it's almost like, I imagine, like the Lynch Transcendental Meditation. You're tapping into this field and this world that is self, that they define itself.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah. I mean, some people, like Lynn, my late girlfriend, she did it twice a day.

[David Harbour]

The teal.

[Marc Maron]

No matter what. Yeah, no matter what. No matter what.

[David Harbour]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like, if she's on set, I gotta go. 20 minutes.

[David Harbour]

No way.

[Marc Maron]

Yep.

[David Harbour]

Amazing. And did it. And it was just a practice that she loved.

[Marc Maron]

That's it. And. But I think she.

[David Harbour]

You think it helped her more than the. The therapy?

[Marc Maron]

Oh, totally. I think it was because she wasn't really that kind of person, but these people who really do that thing, I think it is. It is foundational and enabled, you know, it enabled. Well, I mean, she was, you know, very charismatic and open and, you know, caring, but she had a thing. I think it. It grounds you in something that is. It's hard to even define, but if it works, you know, you're.

[David Harbour]

You're.

[Marc Maron]

You're grounded, dude.

[David Harbour]

Yes. Was hers visualization?

[Marc Maron]

I don't know exactly what her process was, but she could go right in. Like, I'd. You know, I'd wake up and she'd already be in it. And I'm. And I'm part of me, sort of like. But we just slept. I mean, what do you need to wake up and do this?

[David Harbour]

Right? But she was different kind of concentration.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. But she. But she was so good at it. It was like she was really in. Like, I'd look at her and be like, that's a little creepy, you know, because, you know, she. She locked right in.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, Well, I mean, I started doing some of that stuff, and then, you know, what I got into was, you ever go back and Listen to Ram Dass.

[Marc Maron]

I haven't really.

[David Harbour]

Oh, man.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know if I'm a searcher enough.

[David Harbour]

Really? Really. See, I thought that. I think you are. I mean, that would be.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but I'm more of, like, you know, there's part of me that is. But there's part of me that wants to work it out in my own way.

[David Harbour]

I see. Not listen to gurus or guys and.

[Marc Maron]

Sometime get there and it's surprising, you know, for me. You know. And then somebody like you would go, like, yeah, but they've been talking about that for 10,000 years. I'm like, yeah, but I just discovered it on my own without medicine.

[David Harbour]

Part of the fun.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but. So I'm more. I. In. In terms of spiritual searching, I'm dismissive of process, you know, because I. Dismissive of process? Yes. Like. Like, if you're going to give me a dogma of any kind.

[David Harbour]

Oh, I see.

[Marc Maron]

You know, even if it's just sitting for 15 minutes.

[David Harbour]

I see.

[Marc Maron]

You know, I'm gonna be like, there's gotta be another way. But I don't know that there is.

[David Harbour]

Well, I mean. I mean, the interesting concept of, like, what you get to. I think. And again, this is all my, you know, armchair book review.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Just in case you're taking David harbor guru.

[David Harbour]

Please do not.

[Marc Maron]

Meditation.

[David Harbour]

I have no idea what I'm talking about. But theoretically, I mean, the idea of Zen. Yeah. At its nth form. Is that it's all in individual. Right. Is that it's all just sort of like your own meditative path through this world. It doesn't have form.

[Marc Maron]

Right. Well, like, I. Like, my biggest. My newest revelation was like, you know, I'm a. Well, you know, I'm a recovering addict.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I have that thing on all levels. And, you know, right now I'm like, you know, I'm doing these. These nicotine pouches.

[David Harbour]

Is this. This is a sponsor.

[Marc Maron]

No. No.

[David Harbour]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

No, but, like, they're so good.

[David Harbour]

Well, you look like you're just chewing that.

[Marc Maron]

No, I just put them in the thing and you get a little nicotine. So. But. But this is a manageable.

[David Harbour]

You park it, right.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Addiction. Why? You kind of want one?

[David Harbour]

I mean, I do. I can't believe I've come to my dealer in a garage out here.

[Marc Maron]

What's that? Hers. You go, like.

[David Harbour]

You park.

[Marc Maron]

You've investigated this? Yeah, that's right. You park it. That's a. I know all about that.

[David Harbour]

I used to do. I did the Nicorette for, like, Two weeks.

[Marc Maron]

I've done. I did that for years. I can't get off. But what I said on stage was one night. It's like, you know, it's like, this is manageable. I'm a fucking addict. And if this is what it's going to take, if this is all it takes for me on a daily basis to hold back the big empty, will I go? Yes, but if I was spiritual, I'd embrace the big empty.

[David Harbour]

There you go. And see, that's the thing. It's like we're all running away from our suffering in all these various ways and we just need to sit.

[Marc Maron]

Or maybe not just suffering, but existential terror.

[David Harbour]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

So I guess that's suffering.

[David Harbour]

I mean, you sound like you're suffering even when you say it.

[Marc Maron]

The awareness of mortality and then the mundane issues of shame.

[David Harbour]

I mean, of course, I mean. But you know, the interesting thing about the Zen stuff is that's like basic level, entry level. Like you talking about figuring it out. That's entry level stuff. They sit around and meditate on their bodies dying. Like they. They sit around and meditate on the rotting of their bodies.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

And how this body will die for. You know, it's like the first meditation that you do.

[Marc Maron]

And do they do that until they die?

[David Harbour]

No, you sort of figure it out, I guess. And at a certain point you're like, yeah, that's cool.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, how you can let it go.

[David Harbour]

You let go of that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

I mean, there's a.

[Marc Maron]

How you doing with that one?

[David Harbour]

I mean, terrible. Absolutely awful. It's. I don't know. I mean, it's the only really thing to talk about is death. Right. The. There is a. There's an incredible. You know, I do love the Vietnamese Buddhist sort of thing. It's a little different than the Tibetan thing. There's a. There's a video of Thich Nhat Hanh with a child. And the child is like. Is asking about death. He's like, does death really exist? And the. And this, you know, the old monk is just like, absolutely. Like, there is no life without death.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[David Harbour]

The kid is just looking for the reincarnation answer, whatever. But it's. I mean, I guess it's a little more complex.

[Marc Maron]

Where's that?

[David Harbour]

They do that. He's got those backs, nicotine bags just covered. He's soaking in a tub of them, trying to push away the suffering of that moment. I guess the, you know.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's interesting. So that is the existential terror is the suffering of every moment. So unless you really Deal with that at the beginning or at a core level, you're kind of locked in. You have to transcend that fear.

[David Harbour]

Well, you have to understand that the body dies on something called impermanence and emptiness. So the fact of the matter is, like, nothing's permanent.

[Marc Maron]

I've been fucking with that grasping of.

[David Harbour]

The permanence and then even the idea of emptiness. There is no real. There's no real Marc Maron, there's no real David Harbor. It's like there's a voice box. There's a this, there's that. There's a body that's gonna die. It's all gonna. So.

[Marc Maron]

But it's making its mark.

[David Harbour]

Especially when it's shitting on all the other cats.

[Marc Maron]

Exactly.

[David Harbour]

I'm sorry, it wasn't. It was beating up the other cats, shitting on the floor. Yeah, but. Yeah, so that's like. You know, where you begin with this stuff is that, you know, it's funny. There is a paradox. There's a paradox, too, though, in this. Where they believe that the body dies for sure, but they say that there's no birth and no death.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[David Harbour]

And so there's something called, like, even when it's your birthday, Buddhism, it's just your continuance, but something continues.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. It's just a live day.

[David Harbour]

Now. I, in my egotistical nature, my desire for self transcendence or whatever, like, you go into reincarnation. I went into a big kick a couple months ago with past lives.

[Marc Maron]

See, that's why it can't be a fair chance.

[David Harbour]

No, but it's not real. I mean, it's my bull. It's. You know, the real people will laugh at you for this. But. No, but I went down the road to. To make sure that my quote unquote soul was preserved. And I met the little kid from Egypt that I was. And the spider.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, a spider. And how'd that work for you?

[David Harbour]

It was a hypnotist. Hypnotherapist. And you go under another clinician. PhD, MD, DDS, nurse practitioner.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, he had the Duom certified.

[David Harbour]

They looked real on the board with the gold.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[David Harbour]

And. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

What would that do for you?

[David Harbour]

Down from. You know, you're walking down a staircase. Oh, and now you're in a corridor. What's the door in front of you? What color is it? Red.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Okay, there's a door to your right. What color is that? It's green. Okay, we're gonna open that door 5.

[Marc Maron]

Do you have a choice of doors? Like, let's make A deal.

[David Harbour]

I don't know. I mean, I guess she determined the door.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, interesting. She hypnotist.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it was based on my color or not, because, you know, I thought it was. At first, I was like, oh, yeah, you don't want to go in the red door. Sure. You want to go in the green door.

[Marc Maron]

Red's bad.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, sure. Clearly, traffic lights. Your psyche works in traffic light terminology. But I. Yeah, but she, you know, go in this door and then. And then every time I did it with her, I did it several times. And every time I did it with her, she'd always make me turn to the right and go in that door, no matter what color the door was.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

So I think it was sort of a shtick, really. But, yeah, you go into the room. It's a room of your subconscious room. If you're understanding and you. And you know, what's in the. What's the room? It's like, oh, it's a cathedral. There's windows, ivy on the wall. Oh, okay, let's go check out the ivy. Oh, yeah, it doesn't look so good. It's a little, like, murky blue. Let's get a garbage can. Let's fucking. Let's take all the ivy. Let's put it. Let's ask the ivy who it is.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

And, you know, then your spider walks.

[Marc Maron]

In the room and you're like, that's me.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. We go back to the spider's life. We go back through the spider's life. And he bit somebody.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, that fucker fell. You can't get through life.

[David Harbour]

That's terrible about it.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, he did. The spider felt bad about it.

[David Harbour]

I mean, this is again where it sort of breaks down because it becomes like, yeah, so. But then he was out of the. Forced. Out of the forest, and the spider was. Died.

[Marc Maron]

I think you're you right at the precipice of writing a children's book.

[David Harbour]

I think you just pitched me a really achieved. I really got somewhere with all this therapy and all this searching. Amazing.

[Marc Maron]

It's like. Well, that's what. That's why, you know, who was it? Bruno Bettelheim, you know, wrote an entire book of psychoanalysis of fairy tales.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Marc Maron]

And it's sort of like, I think these kind of archetypes or whatever they are, they are historical. Well, and mythological.

[David Harbour]

And I will say, like, therapeutically, there's no. It doesn't matter if the past lives thing is real or not. It's happening Imaginatively in your psyche for some reason, for some narrative.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I guess I don't know if I'd go there.

[David Harbour]

If you learn something from that narrative, who cares?

[Marc Maron]

That's. Well, that's. And I think that's how you're approaching the Freudian therapy too, is that you're, you know.

[David Harbour]

That's exactly right. Right. You're.

[Marc Maron]

You're filling yourself up with possibilities and different ways to interpret things. Right.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. And sort of carving out your own narrative reality. Well, and I did find that, like, for me personally, because we've talked, we talked on the previous podcast about, you know, the problem with, with. I've been through, like, medications and I've been through the rigmarole on that side of the equation.

[Marc Maron]

No more.

[David Harbour]

No, I still am. I still do go through it, but I go through it a lot less. You know, partially it's age, but partially it's because you can carve out and craft a narrative.

[Marc Maron]

Right, right.

[David Harbour]

That works reality. That works for you.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Harbour]

And where you have some self understanding and some compassion.

[Marc Maron]

So that I think the better word then is for all the exercises of exploration is it's informing your narrative.

[David Harbour]

Yes, that's correct. Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Right. I get that. And then, but like, and I mean.

[David Harbour]

The interest in acting comes from an interest in the same thing of carving narratives, but it's a little more chaotic because you're doing it for. In service of something else that you may not have chosen.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but the more you inform your own narrative, the more possibilities you have. Have in creating narratives. I would think, why not?

[David Harbour]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Right. I mean, but you don't. With young.

[David Harbour]

Sure, I. With young. I. You know what? I. I'll tell you how, how, how much I. With young. I ordered on Amazon not like four months ago, the Red Book. Have you ever seen this book of Jung?

[Marc Maron]

I don't know.

[David Harbour]

Okay. It's about like this big. It's the size of a bible. It's like 300 bucks or something. And you put it out on the table. It's the illuminate manuscripts of. It's basically just a rant. Like, it's just him on a rant. I started reading it and it's insane and I was bored to tears and I put it down. But I do like some of his stuff.

[Marc Maron]

It's good that you can acknowledge boredom and you don't force yourself to like, I gotta get this.

[David Harbour]

I couldn't do it. I can't do it anymore. I could when I was younger. I mean, with Thomas Pinch and all that stuff.

[Marc Maron]

But I think with Jung, it's like, if you're gonna look at the cockfight, I think between Jung and Freud, you know, is Freud was, you know, attaching everything to either, you know, mythology or transference and mother issues. And Jung was like, I'm gonna take it all on in a vague way.

[David Harbour]

Yes, that's true.

[Marc Maron]

You pussy. We're talking mandalas, baby.

[David Harbour]

I like them as gunfighters.

[Marc Maron]

That'd be a good movie alchemy. Yeah, fuck with that. Do the. A little more blow, Siggy. That'll help you out.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, I mean, I suppose you take it on in a more imaginative way and you sort of open it up.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I wish I was more like. I think my struggle for the self that lives in the world has been.

[David Harbour]

So.

[Marc Maron]

Hard that that's been my primary focus is how do I accept me as opposed to, like, you know, why not get rid of it all? You know, like, it's been such a. It's like I'm 61, and I'm finally comfortable in my skin most of the time.

[David Harbour]

Oh, okay.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Congrats.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, Well, I mean, you know, I. If. But if I gain five pounds, it's all right.

[David Harbour]

I'm glad it's still that tenuous.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, of course. Every day's tenuous.

[David Harbour]

It's like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, you know, like.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, man, I don't like to hear you say that. It's from 61.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but isn't this the thing?

[David Harbour]

Yes, I guess it is. And I get. Well, I guess that's the search is to get real comfortable living in that present moment.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, well, I mean, to be like.

[David Harbour]

This is what we have.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's the interesting thing about the type of stage work I do, because I can make it present like, you know, crowd work is a big thing now. And that's not really. You know, that requires immediacy. But when you're on stage, and I'm sure you've had the experience too, even in a character where you're sort of like, what's that thing on the floor?

[David Harbour]

Oh, for sure.

[Marc Maron]

So. And that is. Those are the best moments.

[David Harbour]

Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure.

[Marc Maron]

I think I told you. I tell you about that time I saw Barry Child. I feel like I told you. No, it's like. It was one of the greatest pieces of theater I ever saw because it was Terry Kenny.

[David Harbour]

Oh, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Played the brother.

[David Harbour]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

Right. The.

[David Harbour]

The.

[Marc Maron]

The. What was he, the vet? I think. So the guy comes in at the end with all the corn.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So it's like. It's Gary Sinise's production. And, you know, and there's that scene. It's towards the end. I think it might be the last bit where he walks in with all the shit. Fucked up corn.

[David Harbour]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And one of the corn cobs falls in that moment. And it just starts rolling down the snow. And I'm like, this is the best thing that ever happened in theater. Because the corn rolling upstaged the entire moment. And they all had to sit and it. You know.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, it's fantastic.

[Marc Maron]

It's the best.

[David Harbour]

I love that stuff, too. I love that stuff.

[Marc Maron]

But, yeah, the present, you know, I. Oh, fuck, man.

[David Harbour]

I had that with Chris Walken, and I saw. I saw Othello in the park when I was, like, 14 years old.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Chris Walken as Iago. And, like, he's on stage in Central park doing this monologue about Iago and hating the Moor. And a little squirrel, like, just came right up on stage at him. And he just stopped and looked at him, went, bah. It was the greatest moment, really.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, that's the best moment.

[David Harbour]

It was incredible.

[Marc Maron]

That's the best moment in the history of Shakespeare.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. Probably incredible.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But those are those moments that, like. And I just was watching a documentary on Andy Kaufman. Who? Kaufman. Andy Kaufman. It's a new documentary. It's called thank youk Very Much. Now, like, you know, I appreciate him, and I have him in the proper amount of respect and awe, but I can't say, as myself that I necessarily got laughs or enjoyed it that much. It was more of a sort of, like. I get it.

[David Harbour]

An intellectual thing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. But after watching this documentary, I'm like, all right, well, this is deeper than I anticipated because, you know, the director really went after his, you know, youth. Like, what made this guy. And he was a big TM guy.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And, you know, and he. There's a. A piece of film on there. I gotta watch it again because I want to write it down. Where he asks the Maharishi a question at one of those big conferences where he says, well, what's the point of entertainment if we're. You know. And I can't remember what the Maharishi said, but he was talking about there's a space in between the jokes, that. That. That's what it's all about. So.

[David Harbour]

So he just extended that space.

[Marc Maron]

That's right.

[David Harbour]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

He kept pushing it. And the space that he would create through discomfort or challenge or things that had no definition, that he could create a space where an audience would Be like, what is happening? You know, and is this. What do we. How are we supposed to. And that is bringing somebody into a present because you transcend all their expectations and you subvert them, whether it's intentional or not. So they don't. The present is like, this is completely out of the context of anything we expected. And I don't know what to do with this.

[David Harbour]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And that is the present.

[David Harbour]

Yes. Yes.

[Marc Maron]

That's kind of brilliant.

[David Harbour]

I like that. I like that.

[Marc Maron]

You know what story of yours? I quote all the fucking time.

[David Harbour]

Jesus, here we go.

[Marc Maron]

All the time. It's like one of the best stories about acting I ever heard. And I told the story a million times. It's just about. It was you talking about how you. You. You know, you're in a play, like, it's on Broadway, and you're about to go on that moment where you're. You're like, you're.

[David Harbour]

You're hearing the right.

[Marc Maron]

You're hearing the guy saying the line that's going to get you on stage, and you go, somebody give me a script.

[David Harbour]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That is the best thing ever.

[David Harbour]

It was like six months into the run, too.

[Marc Maron]

It's the best thing ever.

[David Harbour]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

How much more present do you need to be?

[David Harbour]

And then you just go on, and your body just remembers it.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my God. But that moment, absolutely terrifying. Like. But the fact that, like, there's nothing's gonna help you.

[David Harbour]

I'm just completely trying to land the plane. There's nothing. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But do you. So do you now, at this point, do you have a daily practice then.

[David Harbour]

Of the meditation and stuff? I mean, I'm kind of going through trying to find something, to be honest. And I guess when I'm in it, I do feel. When I'm able to do it. Yeah, I do feel better.

[Marc Maron]

I did it a bit during COVID with the. With the Headspace app.

[David Harbour]

Oh, okay.

[Marc Maron]

You know, like, just 15 minutes sitting and breathing.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. I just do this thing. I mean, you know, some of the most effective ones from this Thich Nhaan guy are like, breathe in. Present moment, breathe out, Wonderful moment. And it's just like. Or breathe in. I am home, or I have arrived.

[Marc Maron]

It's that simple.

[David Harbour]

I am home.

[Marc Maron]

And you just gotta surrender to it. It's that simple.

[David Harbour]

I think it's deceptively. Yeah. Unintellectual. I mean, it's deceptively simple.

[Marc Maron]

Cause I can see the thoughts coming and going. I can do that part.

[David Harbour]

But that's what you're not supposed. Like, the whole idea is Training? Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I can do that part.

[David Harbour]

It's training to be alive in the present moment.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I can do that.

[David Harbour]

Oh, shit. Well then, yeah, but I want to get to the biggest escondido.

[Marc Maron]

But where's the big sort of like.

[David Harbour]

Well, that's a great question.

[Marc Maron]

The bliss of everything. I want the everything bliss.

[David Harbour]

I don't know that that's where it goes, I think. I don't know that it's a drug.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, well, that's disappointing.

[David Harbour]

Exactly. It's a problem. I have the same problem with it.

[Marc Maron]

Like, how was the day you realized that?

[David Harbour]

I mean, I guess what it does is it does allow you non suffering is theoretically you explore the origin of suffering and then you have non suffering.

[Marc Maron]

Well, all the sort of like ego driven, compulsive attempts to alleviate suffering. They just wear out. They just wear out. And it's disappointing, you know, like, you know, when, you know, one day you're just sort of like, I don't even want to jerk off. It's like it's a kind of a terrible moment.

[David Harbour]

I know, I know.

[Marc Maron]

And food stops working. You're just sitting there like, well, so that's something.

[David Harbour]

Like, where do you go from there?

[Marc Maron]

That's right. That's where I am.

[David Harbour]

I mean, because. Well, okay, I'm, I'm kind of with you.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Because like the pleasure driven life or like the escape from suffering just into pleasurable experiences doesn't really. At a certain point it's like how much you only eat lunch once a day. It's like, who cares?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. You're just gonna shit it out and you're just watching, kind of like trying to get just existential relief out of a pint of ice cream.

[David Harbour]

So where do you go? What have you, what's your practice been?

[Marc Maron]

Well, the idea that a lot of lip service to the idea of vulnerability. Right.

[David Harbour]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

So if what you're trying to escape is, is rooted in discomfort or, or the fear of, of exposure or vulnerability or whatnot, and then, you know, from there you go like, well, am I capable of intimacy? And then from there I go, it's like, why is that even important?

[David Harbour]

What's the answer?

[Marc Maron]

Because I. Yeah, yeah, well, well, the, the, the next thing is like, I'm all right by myself. You know, I can, you know, I got records and you know, you know, talk to the cats, you know, but, but there is supposedly this, this, this way of attaining some sense of humanity and, and wholeness maybe through, through intimacy, intimate relationships. Yeah. And, and, and I don't, I I just don't know how it's satisfying and I don't know how it's not just sort of like, you know, redundant. You know, like, great, we're both sitting here, you know, you're knitting the thing and I'm over here with the book. What?

[David Harbour]

Well, I don't know that it necessarily just has to relate to that one intimate relationship. Right.

[Marc Maron]

No, yeah, I'm capable of it with.

[David Harbour]

Other everybody from the barista at the thing. The whatever. It's just. It's just a constant sense of vulnerability. And as they talk about in this stuff, like inter being. Right. The fact that, like inter being, I make you as much a piece of me as I am to myself. And I think that.

[Marc Maron]

Do you say that to the barista?

[David Harbour]

It's the opener. And then it's like, I would like a latte or it's, you would like a latte.

[Marc Maron]

And then eventually, you know, the word is spread throughout the coffee shop. It's like, here he comes again. And eventually freak out.

[David Harbour]

Here they start locking the door.

[Marc Maron]

You eventually wake up to what you've been doing and you're like, I can't go to that coffee shop anymore.

[David Harbour]

I love that the goal is intimacy. And all you do is push people away with your over sharing hippie bullshit.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, my brother's like that. So I get it, I get it, I get it. What's going on with the pickleball? You know.

[David Harbour]

It'S so true. Oh, God.

[Marc Maron]

But how's. Well, how's work?

[David Harbour]

I mean, great.

[Marc Maron]

What? Yeah, great.

[David Harbour]

I mean, and that really is the. That's the only thing that I really do understand. Right. Like you do something. I just intrinsically have loved doing it since I was five years old. Yeah. I've never stopped loving, loving doing it. And you know that it brings joy to other people.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Like there's nothing. It's purely like, if I could do it just 24 7, I think that'd be great.

[Marc Maron]

I'm not sure that my work always brings joy.

[David Harbour]

Oh, come on. There's a few people out there.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, what I think they feel seen and relieved.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, that's joy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Harbour]

That's a feeling of like last night. It's you. How about this? It's you. Useful. Your work is useful.

[Marc Maron]

No, that's right. It brings community. Yeah. There's a point of view I share that is not the standard one, but it's not alien. And to the people that feel the way I feel, and there are a lot of them, they feel seen and in this political climate, my shows have become like support spaces, like safe spaces where they know how I think so. And these are people that are terrified and nervous and rightfully so, but they know I'll speak to it and speak to the sources of my own kind of struggle. And it really does have this feeling of community service in the sense that everyone's pretty isolated. Everyone's locked into their phones. They're just destroying their brains every day with this kind of, you know, hopeless nonsense and, you know, just to get them in a room with other people. And I think that's the power of theater. And in film, if people go to the movie theater, I agree. You know, so. But, like, I'm on stage last night in a comedy set, and I had this idea yesterday about, you know, the nature of. Well, the thing I was meditating on. You know, I don't know if you. You, you. You kind of get little phrases or mantras or whatever, but. But what I. What you. The last two days, it's been a quote from Hannah Arendt. Yeah. That says, the death of human empathy is one of the earliest and most telling signs of a culture about to fall into barbarism.

[David Harbour]

Wow.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So that's what. You know. And then I breathe.

[David Harbour]

That's incredible. Jesus.

[Marc Maron]

And it's so, like. So like, last night, I'm doing a moment.

[David Harbour]

Wonderful moment.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Harbour]

So, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So I'm doing a comedy set. And I said, you know, I was just kind of playing with this idea, you know, with Informed a bit by later Carlin, where I'm like, you know, where the idea was like, hey, the leap from fuck them to kill them is a pretty short leap.

[David Harbour]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

All it requires is permission.

[David Harbour]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And incentive. And a presidential pardon. It's pretty big incentive. Right. So I wanted that laugh, but what I got was. What I got was, what's happening?

[David Harbour]

People were not wanting to go down that road.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I don't think people think like that.

[David Harbour]

Oh, really?

[Marc Maron]

Not most people. Most people are just sort of like, what? What?

[David Harbour]

I guess that seems really clear to me. I know, but I don't think just on their side. I think on our side. I mean, I don't think there are sides anymore.

[Marc Maron]

No, no, no.

[David Harbour]

I just think we're. All of us with this device and with the. Are just continually beating at this thing of, like, weird. And this is what I say about interbeing. We're different. This person is different. This person is separate. This person is other.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[David Harbour]

And I'm going to either dominate this person or feel worse. About myself in. In relation to this person or whatever. And as you say, like, building community, building empathy is the antithesis of what that phone is.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it's an empathy killer. And it's.

[David Harbour]

It's happened in that way. A civilization killer.

[Marc Maron]

Exactly. And it happened so subtly because we adapted so immediately to it. Like, I'm doing a bit now about how I think my phone is my primary emotional partner.

[David Harbour]

And it is, of course, you get.

[Marc Maron]

Everything you need, you get, you earn joy, hold it.

[David Harbour]

And the way they look at it and the way they cradle it, the way they put cases on, I mean, myself included. It's just there is a fetish to it as like, you know, not even a dog or a cat, as a primary partner, like a girlfriend or boyfriend.

[Marc Maron]

It's a panic when you lose it.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. You're always holding on to it, making sure you have it.

[Marc Maron]

I do this thing where I'm like, you're on it and you're getting everything you need emotionally, and then you're sitting across from your human partner who's on her phone, and occasionally she'll laugh and you'll go, what is it? And she'll go, I'll text it to you. And that's the nature. Right.

[David Harbour]

But there's also no way a human. I mean, this is maybe an AI discussion too, but there's no way a human can. Can compete with the attention smorgasbord, that phone. So the idea of, like, human relationships, I'm just going to fundamentally be more boring than that phone.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

So you're going to have to accept that and want that to get back to that. Well, we got to figure out. I guess we got to figure out why we need to get back to that on some kind of visceral level. I feel like I do know, but I feel like it goes into this very meditative, simplistic thing that I'm talking about with the no self thing, as opposed to. Because if we just want stimulation, titillation, entertainment, the AI and the phone, that's the way to go. Because there's no way a human being is going to be able to compete with that. I even think about in terms of the movie business, like, we're training audiences to like from when they're young, to like, really quick snippet things and even to like things that are somewhat false.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Like, I don't know if we're training audiences to, like, the ickiness of being a human.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

And so what place does film have anymore? What place does television have any more place does theater have.

[Marc Maron]

Especially if they're just accommodating a content marketplace that is attention driven. Like this idea that like, you know, you can't do anything longer than a half hour cause people just can't pay attention. I'm like, yes they can.

[David Harbour]

Right?

[Marc Maron]

They can. I mean you're just supporting that, that equation because of a content driven marketplace. But people are perfectly capable. I mean, you know, I sat through the Brutalist, you know, and like it was great.

[David Harbour]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

So like that's a false premise.

[David Harbour]

Well, I think, you know what's funny to me, what I'm noticing. And again this is like, I think what I like about films because I really, I sit down every time I watch a movie now.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

I think why do we need this?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

As opposed to give me an AI, give me a no. Like give me something that's colorful, that's gonna have like some jokes that the computer can come up with. Why do I need something that's gonna be rich and weird like this? And I think it has something to do with the slower dreamlike quality of being a human that consciousness provides that there is something that isn't quite real. And there's something very technically specific about the silicon based life form that really wants data, information, quantifiable specificity that I think is. But as human beings we don't want so much of it. And I think that's gonna be the divide. I'm gonna like blurriness.

[Marc Maron]

Well, there's also just the basic drug model. Whereas like, you know, these quick beats are endorphin jackers. I mean when you scroll you're getting a hit one way or the other, whether it's down or up. And it's quick. You know, like years ago the one of the only things Dennis Miller ever said that. And I don't know who wrote the joke, but it never left me. It was like in the early days of the Internet. Dennis Miller said the Internet is gonna make crack look like Sanka.

[David Harbour]

It's true.

[Marc Maron]

But I think for me, because I find a tremendous amount of solace at this particular point in history from watching good films. And it's not, it's only because, you know, there's a humanity to it and if the story is told well and authentically, there is something nourishing about it.

[David Harbour]

Do you think that a 20 year old audience member understands that concept?

[Marc Maron]

What is it my job to make them understand?

[David Harbour]

I mean, I don't know if it's your job, but it's.

[Marc Maron]

I don't even know Somebody's joking.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, where are we going?

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, well, I mean, I'm almost done.

[David Harbour]

Okay, so.

[Marc Maron]

So how is that my point?

[David Harbour]

You really are no self. I know. Okay. We figured out that. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think it's kind of our. I think it's kind of humanity's problem, though. Maybe. Not sure. But why are we. I think certainly it's an industry problem for Hollywood movies. Well.

[Marc Maron]

But if you create a generation that is really, for most practical purposes, just an extension of the technology because they've surrendered to it or have been given the opportunity to engage with it at such a young age, you know, where does an elder even begin to talk?

[David Harbour]

Well, where's the fight? Like, how do you. Where's the.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know that they see it as something to fight. It just is, you know, you're saying the fight.

[David Harbour]

So you think 50 years from now, films won't be made?

[Marc Maron]

Well, I don't know. I imagine that you could probably go to bed at night and tell your phone to make a movie for you the next day and tell it what length you want it and what you want it to be about and it'll come up with something.

[David Harbour]

I know.

[Marc Maron]

But I think even when you talk about Shakespeare, which is not my bag, I mean, the reason why it remains and persists and is engaged with is somehow or another that fucking genius was able to encompass all the sort of foibles and manifestations of the human spirit in these dramas and comedies that there was something about.

[David Harbour]

And you think the more we get invested in the technology and the phone and the more we get attached to it, we still remain those. Remain with those human foibles and qualities.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know.

[David Harbour]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

See, the thing is, like, I really. It turns out that the brain is much softer and easy to manipulate than we ever assumed. I mean, the way that people adapt even to tragedies is baffling to me. That, you know, you kind of move past it very quickly and you adapt. So the thing was, is that this was some great convenience and it made our life easier. But the adaptation to it was so quick and the relationship with it is so immediately deep that I think it rewires all of it. I don't know what humanity looks like.

[David Harbour]

I mean, I had an interesting experience where I was very curious about this perspective on what it is to be human, where I did a twitch stream with some streamers and we were, you know. And they asked me a question about roles I choose, like, whether or not I wanted to be romantic in my roles, basically. And I said, like, I didn't need to. I can play various roles and it doesn't necessarily attach to me like it would with someone like Tom Cruise, where it's like, you have a brand that you approach. But I said something along the lines of, like, you know, you guys are performing when you're on this twitch stream, like you're presenting a version of them of yourself. And they all were like, no, we're not. This is us. And I was like, that's a really interesting perspective.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Because it's. It's. To me, are we training younger audiences and younger people to not even acknowledge the fact that they might have darker or weirder or things that they don't want to reveal?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

It's because of the Panopticon. Are we just actually eliminating that part of our personality or pushing it so far down in the subconscious that we actually believe that the Panopticon, what people see is what we are?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

And that was scary for the future film for me, because I was like, okay, then you don't need us to reveal ourselves on film anymore. You do just need.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know. I still think that no matter how repressed it becomes or suppressed or it still exists. Well, I think that, you know, know those moments, there are moments that you can have in well written theater or film or anything.

[David Harbour]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

That will find it.

[David Harbour]

Pierce. Yeah. Pierce the veil.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And then all of a sudden, you got to deal with, like, what's happening to me.

[David Harbour]

Yes, exactly. And you just. Instead of crying, you're just shaking your leg and you don't know why your body is. Yeah, I love that. I love that. That's. That is like the function of. Great. It just works on you in a certain way. That's like me and my therapist.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Just coming out, you know, on Thursdays.

[Marc Maron]

Where all of a sudden a connection is made.

[David Harbour]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Like, that scene I think of, like, for some reason, the one that keeps coming up, because I watch Black Mass a lot.

[David Harbour]

Really?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

God, you watch Black Mass a lot?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. It's become one of those. It gets better every time I watch it.

[David Harbour]

Really?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

I've only seen it once, I think, because, like, you.

[Marc Maron]

I think initially I was like, well, you know, the depth makeup was an obstacle for me.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. Overpowering.

[Marc Maron]

But then once I got past that and I looked at the other performances in the script, actually, in terms of, you know, this is a gangster movie, you know, based on a real Story. And it's fucking great. And it's just great. Like, you're great in it. Joel's great. Those performances specifically.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, that's depressing when he's in that place and he's gotta kill the.

[Marc Maron]

The. The dude. But. But even in the. In the. All the guys, when they're being, you know, when they cut to the interrogation interviews, you know, there's those moments where, you know, Plum. They're interrogating Clemens and then the big guy, who was also great, where, you know, having lived in Boston and met real mobsters, guys who have killed people there. There's something they're missing that is. Is. Is. It's tangible, but you couldn't. You know, it only comes from that. And. And for some reason, Rory, you know, got it.

[David Harbour]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And so did the other guy, the big guy, you know, I forget his name.

[David Harbour]

He's such an interesting dude, that guy, too. I remember. Who?

[Marc Maron]

Rory.

[David Harbour]

I really liked him.

[Marc Maron]

You know, I interviewed him. Was not easy going.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

He's in a deep place.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, but he was so. I remember, like, loving him. And do you remember the movie Empire Records? It's like a weird little comedy movie.

[Marc Maron]

I remember him in Dazed and Confused where he was just. Yeah, okay.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. Same kind of character.

[Marc Maron]

But the moment that I was talking about with you is when, you know, you're. And Joel's like, no, no, we got this. We can get, you know, you remember, you're like, we're.

[David Harbour]

We're killing kids or something.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, we're. We're, you know, where they're on to you and to the. To this. To the. The scam with. With Whitey, where Kevin Bacon is. And you know that the jig is up. And this is before you do the TV interview or the newspaper interview where you decide to talk, but, you know, but Joel's sort of like, ah, we get out of this thing. And you're like, dude, what are you talking about? Yeah, that moment. Like, it'd be impossible for someone to watch that and be like, I don't get it. You know, like, it's like. And everyone has experienced that moment at some point in their life where it's like, no, it's over. Yeah, it's like, what are you even thinking? And I think that ultimately is the moment you want from humanity in relationship, in relationship to the technology and towards. It's just that moment where you're like, holy shit, this is done. We, you know, we, you know, we've been found out.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. I don't know. Does that ever come.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know.

[David Harbour]

I mean, how does that come?

[Marc Maron]

My demented dad said something very interesting to me and I. And I can't get it out of my head because when they have dementia, there's a poetry to it, you know?

[David Harbour]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And it was not really wasn't in context with anything. Anything. I mean, I talked to him and he's still, you know, a good part of him is there, but it's also a Zen thing too, and I don't really know what to do with it, but. And there was. It wasn't really connected to anything. But he said, you know, you know, you got to take the consequences or create your own.

[David Harbour]

Create your own consequences.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[David Harbour]

What does that mean exactly?

[Marc Maron]

Because it's like that's all we do. That's what, like the weird sort of shame driven, compulsive person who, like, you know, who can't stop himself. All you're doing is generating possible consequences or you're acknowledging that. You know, it's just. To me, it was such a weird. I don't know what to do with the poetry of it, but I like it.

[David Harbour]

Wow, he's got dementia.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

And he comes out with bangers like that sometimes. Wow.

[Marc Maron]

Sometimes he'll come out with a banger. And it does explain a lot about him, you know, where, you know, if you've got a guy who's, you know, living a secret life and getting away with it, but knows that it's not. Right.

[David Harbour]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

You know, the challenge is to create your own consequences enough to where you stop, you know, to where, you know, you are the guy saying, it's over.

[David Harbour]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

We're done.

[David Harbour]

So you think humanity is going to be able to do this one day?

[Marc Maron]

I didn't say that.

[David Harbour]

Oh, sorry. I'm saying that's how we were going to wake up from the phone call.

[Marc Maron]

It is, but I don't know if it's going to happen.

[David Harbour]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

I'd like to think that it depends if the Technocrats win and we're all just given numbers instead of names.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But you and I, you know, you know, coming out of like, I grew up primarily in the 70s, so what we're, what we were dealing with was the, the sort of wave crashing of the 60s. But everything that the 60s had to offer was there for us and it was fairly close by. And, and so the arc of, you know, once computers happen and, you know, there was a time where, you know, you didn't know if anyone called you till you got home and Checked your fucking machine.

[David Harbour]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

God, I love that. Right. But there was a time of organic analog existence.

[David Harbour]

Yes. Locality.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And we have that foundationally, and that's all gone. So in some ways, we are the keeper of a weird flame in that we were there for that. But it's very easy for the phone and for technology to erase, even in that part of our history, because everything is available without context, anytime.

[David Harbour]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, I don't know, I tried to hold on to a bit of that in terms of, you know, what. What inspired me and what. What creative freedom looked like at a different time. Yeah. I talked to Pacino, you know.

[David Harbour]

Really?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

How recently?

[Marc Maron]

Right before the book. For the book. So. And it was one that. It was great because it was really kind of life changing for me in approaching acting, you know, because I was about to do a lead in a movie and, you know, and I don't have an actor's confidence, really. And it's not my. It's not ingrained in me how to do it.

[David Harbour]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

You know, but the thing that was most interesting about him is that I didn't know him, and I know his work, and a lot of that work is very intense and very controlled and has a certain amount of swagger and confidence to it. And I thought that's what I was going to be dealing with.

[David Harbour]

No, no, no. He's a sweetie.

[Marc Maron]

He's a sweetie. He's a mess.

[David Harbour]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And he's, like, still chasing it. You know what I mean?

[David Harbour]

Loves acting.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And he's very aware. But the thing that blew my mind away, that blew me away, was that, you know, he never looked at it, you know, until he had to make compromises because he's not great with money, but he never looked at it as anything other than a pursuit of truth.

[David Harbour]

Yes, yes.

[Marc Maron]

And I think that in light of what we're talking about, like whether film is going to be important or what we do is important, or all this stuff that, you know, the artist's mind and that he was so clear on it from an early age when he was hanging around with the living theater, you know, cleaning up with Martin Sheen, that what he saw was that this is a per. This is, you know, it's a finding truth in the craft and in the arts and that he still has that. It's not a job.

[David Harbour]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And I think that, I mean, that's.

[David Harbour]

What I was raised on, too.

[Marc Maron]

Right. That's what I'm saying about what we came up with and how that, you know, it's Very easy to, you know, to sort of generalize about. Like, I don't know if kids are watching movies, but the truth is, is that.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. What are kids drawn to but our job?

[Marc Maron]

Well, they're drawn to truth. Whether they can identify it for real or not. I don't know. That's what's becoming a problem, both in terms of just basic news, but I think also on the level of one's individual humanity. When you have a kid that says, you know, I mean, truth.

[David Harbour]

Also truth is. Is truth empathy or is it survival of the fittest? Like, you know, when you're saying, being drawn to something? I mean, I think Al is a very sort of big, big hearted, empathetic person. That's why he's acting in the things he does. And even when he's playing gangsters and killers, he's searching for that humanity within them.

[Marc Maron]

That's right.

[David Harbour]

Searching for this love.

[Marc Maron]

That's right.

[David Harbour]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

But you could look at the world and say like, oh, it's a shit show of capitalist swagger on who's going to be on top.

[Marc Maron]

I get that.

[David Harbour]

But. And as a kid, you're like, that's what I want to be be. I want to be the dominant.

[Marc Maron]

I want to win.

[David Harbour]

I want to win.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

And I think that, you know, the fight is not only technological, but the fight is for truth itself.

[Marc Maron]

Right, Truth itself. Right. And also the. What is foundational to, to civilization? I mean, I, I get.

[David Harbour]

Correct. And like, do we want to be civilized anymore?

[Marc Maron]

That's the question.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. Do we want to be civilized?

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's the Hannah Arendt that, that's why I, I'm festering on that, that, that, you know, once a culture loses empathy, it's at the, it's at the precipice of barbarism, for sure.

[David Harbour]

So you're saying that people don't have that knowing laugh. No, that. See, and that to me, I mean, now we bring it back. That's scary because if you're not even aware that there's this battle going on.

[Marc Maron]

Yes.

[David Harbour]

Because then they really have won.

[Marc Maron]

Well, fundamentally, authoritarianism is not a, it's not a, it's not civilized. You know, the, the idea of civilization and, and certainly democracy is that, you know, it's about diversity and equality and, and, and tolerance and respect for marginalized or vulnerable people, that we all kind of rise together. And, and, and that's fueled by empathy. Right. And that, and that seems to be, you know, historically challenging, but nonetheless, idealistically, the, the, the, the best way and so once that goes, you know, once that starts to tip towards people being able to other. You know, like it's not just, you know, blacks or gays or, or Jews, but this sort of catch all phrase of woke. Well, that's, that's, you know, that's that those are all the good people.

[David Harbour]

People. So once you gotta be careful because you don't want to other the other side as well.

[Marc Maron]

Yes, I do.

[David Harbour]

Well, you're playing a zero sum game then, because you're not.

[Marc Maron]

Am I. What am I fighting for? Are we fighting for truth?

[David Harbour]

No, we're fighting for community.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[David Harbour]

And so I think that, like, you have to. I don't know, I mean, I think.

[Marc Maron]

That, look, when I talk to him one on one, I'm fine and we're fine.

[David Harbour]

That's the thing. Like, people are people. And I think that the thing, the fight we're fighting is the technology. I mean, the fight we're fighting brain. Yeah, but it's, it's the, it's the, the thing itself. It's the form itself. It's not the people.

[Marc Maron]

No, I get it. But the people are being manipulated to a point where they lose their humanity. So how do you, like, you know, I don't know how you get that back. And certainly some of them, you know, I'm sure a lot of the Nazis were like, you know, what do you need a donut?

[David Harbour]

You know, So, I mean, it's a tough one to bring up because it's impossible to like, challenge that once you bring a Nazi into it. It's impossible to like. It's impossible to argue. It's impossible to argue.

[Marc Maron]

All I'm saying is I knew some Nazis, great guys, you know, we used.

[David Harbour]

To go, I mean, you're right. You sort of lay down your trump card with that one and you're like.

[Marc Maron]

You know, the trump card, the double entre.

[David Harbour]

Sorry, I didn't mean to.

[Marc Maron]

But I guess what I'm landing on here in terms of our question about what is the significance or relevance of what we do, is that that pursuit of humanity, community through truth in art or performance is all we can do on some level.

[David Harbour]

Is all we can do.

[Marc Maron]

Yes.

[David Harbour]

Agreed. And at this point I'm thinking all we should.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Like, I.

[Marc Maron]

Is it gonna work? I don't know. I mean.

[David Harbour]

Right. But it's the only place where I have a gun in the fight, right. It's the only place where I can be effective. I've realized it's really the only place, you know, if I can show something Beautiful. If I can embarrass myself in a certain way to make you realize that it's okay to live another day with more of an open heart and to see someone as human as opposed to a monster, then, yeah, that's the. That to me, that is the battlefront and it's the. And it's the skill set that I have too, so.

[Marc Maron]

Great.

[David Harbour]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I think we did it.

[David Harbour]

Did we do it? Did we even start? Is this thing on? Oh, fuck.

[Marc Maron]

I didn't turn it on.

[David Harbour]

Jesus Christ.

[Marc Maron]

Wow.

[David Harbour]

We did it. We picked up right where we left off. Elves in the corners.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, elves in the corners.

[David Harbour]

Here we are.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, we got rid of the elves. We moved past the elves.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, we moved past the elves.

[Marc Maron]

Thank God we're into now.

[David Harbour]

I'm still. I'm back in the self, though.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

I don't know where I'm going to go from here.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, I mean, you know, it's a long day.

[David Harbour]

It's a long day. I got plenty of time. It's early. I got plenty of time. A cup of coffee. We'll see where I head.

[Marc Maron]

Good to talk to you again.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, you as well.

[Marc Maron]

There you go. Thunderbolts opens in theaters everywhere tomorrow. Hang out for a minute, folks. One thing that's not going to surprise you if you're a regular listener. We love la. Why wouldn't we? It's been the home of the show for 16 years and I've lived here for longer than that. And when you come to visit Los Angeles, no matter how long you're here, you'll be able to take in a lot of stuff I love about this place. Like there's the food. There are seemingly endless options from all sorts of cuisines and dining styles. Yeah, you got B. Wally, Vegan, af out here in Eagle Rock, you got Crossroads for the high end, vegan food. A lot of stuff shopping here. You gotta gimme gimme records if you want some records or Amoeba records or permanent records. And of course, there's no substitute for LA when it comes to the best entertainment. Get over to Hollywood Boulevard and see a star ceremony on the Walk of Fame. Or come see me and dozens of other comedians at the Comedy Store, which has world class comedy every night. LA, it's like 10 cities in one. If you come visit, I guarantee you'll love LA as much as I do. Find more ways to love [e-mail] okay, people, there's a new bonus episode full of outtakes and edits from recent shows available now for full Marin subscribers. You can hear what it was like the day Nick Thune came over and my audio mixer crapped out. How did you feel about that? I was kind of spiraling out and I saw somebody spiral worse than that this week, so I, I. Well, this was minor. Yeah, this was nothing. I mean, what was the worst one? A similar situation? A sound situation? No, it was a boss to an employee and it was just, you know, passive aggressive and nightmare. Yeah. So the boss was mistreating. Yeah. And for you, you're just mistreating your equipment. And myself. Yeah, you are taking it out on yourself. To get bonus episodes twice a week, sign up for the full Marin go to the link in the episode description or just go wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. Here's some simple standard Mark Marin guitar playing Boomer lives monkey and La Fonda cat angels everywhere.