Episode 1641 - Samantha Crain

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron: Episode 1641 – Samantha Crane

Introduction

In Episode 1641 of "WTF with Marc Maron," released on May 8, 2025, Marc Maron engages in a deep and intimate conversation with Samantha Crane, a talented singer-songwriter from the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. The episode, recorded in a historic building in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, delves into Samantha's musical journey, cultural heritage, personal struggles, and her contributions to film scoring.

Samantha Crane's Background

Samantha Crane opens up about her roots and upbringing, painting a vivid picture of her life in Shawnee, Oklahoma. Growing up in a family deeply entrenched in powerlifting, Samantha discusses how her father's passion for the sport influenced her early years.

Samantha Crane [37:03]: "I was, but just purely, like, genetically low center of gravity, like."

Her family's dedication to powerlifting led them to travel extensively, setting up operations at various competitions. This nomadic lifestyle fostered a sense of resilience and adaptability in Samantha, traits that would later influence her musical career.

Musical Journey

Samantha recounts her transition from powerlifting to music, highlighting the pivotal moments that shaped her as an artist. She began by performing open mics in local coffee shops, honing her skills by covering artists like Bob Dylan and Radiohead.

Samantha Crane [44:53]: "Yeah, we were, like, playing Radiohead covers or like Bob Dylan covers or something."

Her formal foray into music production began when she attended a musician's colony on Martha's Vineyard, where she learned to record using Pro Tools. This experience was instrumental in developing her confidence and technical abilities.

Cultural Heritage and Language

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on Samantha's Choctaw heritage and her efforts to preserve and promote her native language through music. She emphasizes the importance of incorporating indigenous languages into contemporary music to keep cultural traditions alive.

Samantha Crane [30:36]: "I ever hear someone like, Jason Molina singing in that way, I can just imagine that he's, like, all alone."

Samantha discusses the challenges of writing songs in Choctaw, noting that the language's structure—being heavily verb-oriented without words like "is" or "are"—allows for a more observational and fluid form of expression.

Samantha Crane [31:28]: "So everything is about, like, movement and change and doing."

Her dedication to learning and using the Choctaw language in her songwriting serves as both an artistic and cultural act of resistance against the erasure of indigenous identities.

Personal Challenges

The conversation takes a poignant turn as Samantha shares her personal struggles, including a severe car accident that left her with significant physical injuries. This traumatic event deeply affected her ability to perform and compose music, leading to a period of depression.

Samantha Crane [70:27]: "And I got really depressed because I couldn't do. I couldn't play guitar."

During her recovery, Samantha found solace in using a voice recorder to hum melodies, which eventually led to the creation of her album "A Small Death." This period of introspection and healing was crucial in redefining her relationship with music and herself.

Scoring for Film

Samantha discusses her venture into film scoring, specifically her work on the Lily Gladstone film "Fancy Dance." She explains how her familiarity with the indigenous community and her understanding of the visual and emotional aspects of storytelling enabled her to create an authentic and organic score.

Samantha Crane [88:43]: "And we just had like a conversation. I think she had mentioned wanting to feel very, like, organic."

Her approach to scoring emphasizes minimalism and intimacy, utilizing instruments that are easily portable to complement the film's setting and narrative.

Artistic Philosophy and Collaboration

A recurring theme in the episode is Samantha's belief in the power of vulnerability and collaboration in art. She articulates how her personal experiences with codependency and loss have informed her approach to music, fostering a desire to push boundaries and connect deeply with her audience.

Samantha Crane [64:59]: "I really don't feel like I'm fully getting into like finishing a record and being like, that was what I wanted to make until I started like, producing my own records."

Marc Maron and Samantha explore the balance between maintaining artistic integrity and navigating the commercial aspects of the music industry. Samantha emphasizes the importance of trusting oneself and being open to collaborative efforts without losing one's authentic voice.

Samantha Crane [85:20]: "And it ended up kind of informing how we recorded the record too, which was just like me letting in a couple of co-producers with me and also recording the whole record like in a room together."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a heartfelt exchange between Marc and Samantha, reflecting on their shared experiences as artists striving for authenticity and connection. Samantha's journey from a powerlifting background to a respected musician and film scorer offers a compelling narrative of resilience, cultural pride, and artistic evolution.

Marc Maron [91:03]: "Well, the record's great, and I'm glad you brought me a vinyl."

Through this in-depth conversation, listeners gain a profound understanding of Samantha Crane's multifaceted life and artistry, highlighting the intricate interplay between personal history, cultural identity, and creative expression.

Notable Quotes

• Marc Maron [71:12]: "What you do learn is like, you've taken a lot of shit and so you can kind of get a boundary."

• Samantha Crane [33:23]: "You can't be locked into like. Because your perception of me is not me."

• Samantha Crane [19:56]: "I'm kind of just now channeling anything about him. He was a true. Just a true poet. A true honest, open, raw nerve."

Key Takeaways

• Cultural Preservation: Samantha emphasizes the role of music in preserving and revitalizing indigenous languages and traditions.

• Resilience Through Art: Personal adversities, such as her car accident, have been transformative in shaping her musical path and artistic philosophy.

• Authentic Collaboration: Trust and vulnerability are central to meaningful artistic collaborations, allowing for deeper connections and creative growth.

• Balancing Integrity and Commercialism: Navigating the music industry requires maintaining authenticity while being open to collaborative and commercial opportunities.

Final Thoughts

Episode 1641 of "WTF with Marc Maron" offers a rich and engaging exploration of Samantha Crane's life and artistry. Through candid dialogue and insightful reflections, Marc and Samantha provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the intersections between personal history, cultural identity, and creative expression. This episode stands as a testament to the power of authentic conversation in uncovering the layers that define an artist's journey.

Transcript

[Marc Maron]

Lock the gate. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the. What the Buddies? What the Nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Marin. This is my podcast, broadcasting from a room in a building that was built in the 1700s in what was once an attic, a building with a very colorful history that I'm not entirely sure of. I could do some reading, but it's sort of. It's not a bed and breakfast exactly. It's a. It's an inn. I'm in Portsmouth. Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and apparently this used to be the house of a ship captain, and then it was owned by a woman who made clothing and then some other stuff. YWCA for a while. I don't know. But it was built a long time ago in the 1700s and renovated, and now I'm in it, and it's beautiful. There's a lot of history here, and I kind of feel it. You know, you get into these old buildings and you feel something. I don't know if it's a real feeling or if it's just something your brain manufactures because you know something about the place. But I definitely have real feelings about New England that always resurface when I'm here. But anyway, look, couple of things. I just want to make a correction because, you know, Canadians are a little bit sensitive right now. And that correction is that I mentioned I was at the Elgin Theater, but I was actually at the Elgin Winter Garden Theater, which is the Winter Garden Theater at the Elgin, which is a very specific and very special venue. I think I might have described it the last time I was talking about it with the leaves all over the place. There's literally the entire walls and ceiling are just covered with a fake ivy, and that apparently represents real ivy. That was there when they unearthed the place behind a wall. But a Canadian, and I'll honor their request, was like, you know, that's a very special place, and the Elgin is really a different theater. And I'm like, all right, man, I'll clear it up. They're very touchy right now. And I get it. Even my joke about the 51st state saying that now that the Liberal won up there, that we could use it because of the votes. They got a little touchy about that, too. They're like, you can't be joking about that now. Delicate time. It's a scary time. I know. I know. I'm living through it myself, but know that it was a joke. I don't want Canada to be the 51st state because I might need to live there. But look, you guys, I'm out in it. I've been doing it. I've been hammering this set, I've been tightening it up. I've been overthinking it. My special taping is this Saturday, day after tomorrow, doing two shows. And it's just incredible. Incredible how much second guessing I am doing. But it's also kind of incredible how I've locked into this set and I'm just running it. I did three shows up in Vermont at a small comedy club, Vermont Comedy Club, which is a great place, and they were nice enough to let me run it there. And I just locked into this set, man, and I'm touring now. Kathy Ladman, who's very funny, she's been on this show. She's opening for me on these dates and we were talking about just a whole life of doing these, doing stand up, doing different places, doing stand up, doing, you know, the, you know, she's been around a long time. I've been around a long time. And just that the idea of preparing for even like a five minute standup spot on a TV show, just kind of rendering down whatever it is you do to kind of make sense for five minutes is separate things from other bits and, you know, mashing them together. There's this weird part of the job that is not just doing stand up. And, you know, I'm not the tightest act in the world, but when I got to tighten it up, I tighten it up. Anyway. How are you guys doing? You all right? Nothing's getting better, but, you know, we're still in it. Today on the show I have an interesting guest. I'm not sure how I got hip to her. I think it might have been through Lily Gladstone, but I got a record by a native singer songwriter named Samantha Crane. She is from the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. And it was a very interesting record in the way that, you know, she sings and the lyrics, some of them were actually in native language. But she's also done a lot of work in film and television. She. She's been used in shows like Reservation Dogs. And she composed the score for the Lily Gladstone film Fancy Dance. And it was interesting and I knew there'd be an interesting story there, so we had a nice conversation. Her latest album is called Gumshoe. But I like talking to people that come from an entirely different background than I do. So it's a good opportunity to talk to, sort of talk about that experience and experience outside of myself and understand and engage. That's what we do. I'm finding as I get older, and I guess I always knew it, that, look, I'm not great left to my own devices or left alone for too long. I definitely need to engage with people. You know, you give me four or five hours alone and, you know, look, I can occupy myself, but there's no telling what will go on in my brain. And then sometimes it just kind of, you know, kind of starts chipping away at my very sense of self. And sometimes I don't know who I am until I'm seen and engaged with another person. And then I'm like, oh, here I am. Thank God, I was drifting. So, as I said, we're coming up on the end of the tour here. There's only two more shows and that's for my HBO special taping this Saturday in Brooklyn, New York at the BAM Harvey Theater. Two shows, 7pm and 9:30. I don't know if there are tickets, but there may be. Go to wtfpod.com tour or BAM B A M dot org for tickets and see if you. There might be some singles. I don't know really what's going on with that. But if you're a last minute kind of person and you want to do that thing, come to one of those shows, it might still be possible. Oh my God, folks, what a long journey this has been my whole fucking life. And I swear to God, when I start talking about my past personally and my past professionally, I've got to learn how to sit in the gratitude a bit. Because honestly, it's a fucking miracle that not only did I land on my feet, but I'm doing okay. And I've kind of made the arc of whatever success was, was given to me. Because, yes, certainly I kept pushing and I kept trying, but it was elusive for many years. And then somehow or another cosmic timing sort of occurred and things shifted and I did all right. I feel like I'm on the other side of it. I'm still doing all right, but I. I feel like, you know, whatever my journey was to get to, whatever peak I was supposed to get to, I might have hit it. I mean, I'm. Hopefully I. I can stay on this plateau that the peak is at for a little while. But even if I don't, I have to acknowledge that. What a long, strange up trip it's been for real. I mean, you know, talking to Kathy in the car about comedy and about my life, I'm like, what? It's like I've lived four, five, six lives. Maybe I'm like a cat. Maybe I've only got a few more. I don't know what one I'm. I don't know which life I'm in. Maybe my seventh. But man, just even being up in this area, it's crazy. It's crazy. Having been a touring one nighter comic. And God knows I've talked about this before up in this area, you know, just. Even in Vermont. In Vermont. Just walking around Burlington. It's beautiful in Vermont. We're right on that lake. What is it? Champlain. Gorgeous. But it's so drenched in weird, traumatic early comedy memories that there's always a slight edge to it. There's always a slight darkness to it that is generated from within me. From my strange, injured core comes these tainted memories. It's wild to be looking at something beautiful and have this slight nag of darkness. And you're like, oh yeah. Oh yeah. I remember there used to be a. Used to come up to Vermont. There was a couple of dates, like a series, a string of dates at the ski areas. And just. I remember traveling up there with my girlfriend who became my first wife. I think it was probably before we were married. And doing a show at a place called Mother Shapiro's in Killington. And the guy who owned the place was kind of crazy. There was a bunch of locals at the bar that were looking at my girlfriend all weird and creepy. And I don't even remember the show or how I got through it. And then I think there was another gig called. It was at a place called maybe Be Made Denny's. I might be completely wrong about that. I remember doing that show with Steve Baliga who used to do a Walter Brennan impression. And this was. I can't even tell you what year it was. It must have been 89. Is that possible? Even then I didn't know who Walter Brennan was. Enough to even get the impression. I don't know what happened to Steve Balika. Nice guy. But I remember Kim and I, my girlfriend at the time was. We used to kind of do one of Steve's lines. Driving through Vermont on the road. Because he used to do this thing like in between jokes. Like he'd just go driving, driving, driving, driving, driving, driving. And it was just this repetition. It didn't really. I don't even know if it was what it was attached to initially, but. And I just remember we used to do that. And I remember stopping at a state liquor store and buying a large bottle of Jagermeister that came with glasses, a gift box, because that's Who I was, I was like, say baby, let's. Let's stop at the state liquor store and get some juice. And I think that brought us closer. I think so. And I used to was sort of obsessed with the Jagermeister for a minute. Nasty stuff. But it took you somewhere. And it was like it had 900 ingredients and it was from a monastery. I just thought it was mystical floor sweepings that made this liquor and yeah. Memorable stuff. And Burlington, Vermont, the front, that was a big college bar. I remember working there with Dave Cross and just, you know, drunk in whatever. I can't even remember where they put us up. I feel like it. I almost feel like it was in the back of the venue, if that's even possible. And then there was that place, Nectar, where you get the turkey sandwiches. I talked to Trey Anastasio about that because they came from there. But none of those experiences really stand out of my mind as great. It was just part of this miserable process that's gotten me here to this place. I'm definitely less miserable. I'm grateful I'm still alive. I feel like my brain is turning into mush. I think it's just because I'm kind of stuffing down the stress of what has to happen in the next couple days. Got one more show tonight here at the music hall. And you know, there's part of my brain that's sort of like no problem. But the other part, somewhere inside of me is just. It's just making my brain kind of, kind of mushy. I think maybe something worse is happening, but I imagine it's just the stress manifesting in other ways. Yes. So look, it's getting nice outside. That means you'll want to spend some more time out of your home. Which means you should have some home security in place for all the times you're not there. That's why we recommend Simplisafe, which is setting the new standard in home security. Simplisafe monitoring agents help prevent break ins before they happen. The AI powered cameras are backed by live professional monitoring agents to detect suspicious activity on your property. Round the clock agents can talk to people on your property, activate spotlights, contact police, all in real time. That not only prevents threats, it deters them too. More than 4 million Americans use and trust Simplisafe, which is one of the reasons it's been named the best home security system on of 2025 by CNET. And it's been named the system with the nicest and most helpful customer service reps by us. Because every Time we've talked to someone at Simplisafe, they've gone above and beyond. Right now you can get 50% off your new SimpliSafe system with professional monitoring. And also you get your first month for free. Just go to simplisafe.com WTF? That's simplisafe.com WTF, for 50% off and your first month free, simplisafe.com WTF'? There's no safe. Like, simply safe. Yeah. New England. New England, folks. So pretty. It's a good time of year. I actually, the last time I was in Vermont, it was during a massive blizzard. And it's fucking. What is it? May? And I'm. I've got to fly from Toronto to Vermont. I don't know if I told you this, and all I'm thinking about is snow, and there's no snow. I'm just. I can't, like, get my brain around, you know, not thinking the worst. Oh, you didn't know this, did you? I left my computer at. @ TSA, at Border Security in Toronto. Fucking unbelievable. I don't. I'm not. I don't know what's going on. I don't do this stuff. I don't. You know, I don't lose shit. I don't leave shit. I can't explain it. Other than. Usually with tsa, if you have tsa, they, you know, they never make you take your computer out anymore. That's one of the big perks. But in Canada, coming back into the States, they made me take the computer out and put it in a tray, and I just grabbed my bags and I didn't put the computer back in. So it's just sitting there at security in Toronto at Pearson Airport. And, you know, I didn't notice until, you know, I was on the plane from Detroit to Burlington. I'd flown to Detroit, didn't need my computer, didn't notice it gone. Then I'm on the plane, I reach in, and I'm like, you gotta be fucking kidding me. God damn. And that feeling of losing either a phone or a computer is just so crazy because it's almost like it's like half your brain. It's like your whole life, it's like, you know, everything that makes you you is somehow in that thing, and. And there's a panic to it. And I just was like, you gotta be kidding me. How am I gonna get that back? Am I ever gonna get it back? What's on there? And, you know, how. How do I even proceed with this? Do I Call. Do I have to be on the phone with somebody? Cause it's just a MacBook. Am I gonna have to tell some random security border guy in Toronto my password so we can prove that it's mine? I mean, just a spiraling. And then I texted my computer guy, and he's like, yeah, don't worry about it. It's just. Let's just get a new one in New York. I'm like, what? And it's like, yeah, you backed it up, right? So it's all in the cloud. You'll get it all back. And I remember this being the case when I spilled some soda on my last one. But there is something about it just floating out there. Just a hard drive or whatever they are now, just out there. But I guess there's the same feeling of it being up in the cloud or down in the cloud in a cloud mill somewhere, a data mill. But nonetheless, it feels like an appendage. You feel like you've. You've lost something, you know, that contains a good part of you. And over the time, I. I was on the plane, and by the time I got to Burlington, I kind of let it go. I'm like, well, fuck it. Is there even a point to try to get that thing back, if it's even possible? And. And I kind of let it go, but I'm like, well, dude, do some due diligence. I mean, you know, why not try? So I go and I look up Lost and found at Toronto Airport, and I'm taken to a site, and there's a form you fill out. And I filled out the form. Then I remembered I had this sticker on the thing of the. The titty sphinx from the Pittsburgh cemetery. Very unique and specific sticker. And I'm like, well, that. That makes it mine. I won't have to have anybody open it up. And then they asked for the serial number of the computer. And I looked that up, and you realize, well, all that stuff's on your phone. You know, what other machines you have. And I got the serial number. Then I talked to my Mac guy, and he's like. I'm like, is the serial number on the computer? Yeah, it's on the outside. It's very small, but it's on there. And I'm like, oh, so they don't have to open it? It's like, no, dude. And your name's right above the login place on the. On the home page. And I'm like, oh. So all that panic about whether or not I had to let my computer go. Because I didn't want an anonymous border agent to open it with my password was. Was made up. It was never a reality. And that's what I had to process in order to let it go. Like, then there's like, it's not open. It's just this fear of having your entire life it seems, you know, just available to strangers. And it's not even a, it's not even a. A browser history. I'm not, you know, I'm not doing the porn on the computer or anything like that, but it's just like, you know, pictures, films, things, writings, recordings, it's all on there, you know, I mean, I do a little porn on the phone, but. But not on the computer. But, but anyway, I guess I wanted to say, and not that they need publicity, but I do want to give a shout out to whatever the kind of structure at Pearson International Airport in Toronto is that I filed that claim and I found a picture of the sticker. I put that on there and the serial number and I emailed it. I never called anybody. And within hours, the next morning, they're like, we think we got it, we got it. I just got to an email saying, this is your thing. And I'm like, great. And then they give you options of how to have it mailed to you. And now the computer is at home. It's at my house before I even get there. And it's so amazing when shit like that works out where you just think like, well, this is going to be lost in the machinery of whatever the lost and found situation. I've got to stop thinking the worst all the time. The computer made it to my house and. And then I was like, well, watch. The only way this can end in a fitting fashion is if it gets stolen off my porch. It did not. Anyway, look, Samantha Crane is here. Her new album is Gumshoe and it's available wherever you get music. And I thought we had a pretty lovely conversation and I listened to the music a lot and it really kind of grew on me in a way I didn't anticipate. But this is me talking to Samantha Crane. When I travel, there's a lot of worry that comes along with it. Sometimes I get worried that my flight will have a problem and I won't get to my destination. Like, I was, I. I was on a Southwest flight to outside of Chicago. Where the hell was I going? But there was two medical emergencies on the flight and five doctors. What a coincidence. What a fortuitous bit of business. Five doctors On a plane, everyone was okay. And of course, I worry about my home while I'm away. But what if someone else took care of your place while guests pay to stay there? What about that? That's what can happen now with an Airbnb co host. An Airbnb co host will create the property listing, manage your reservations, and even send messages to your guests. Then the co host will be on hand for any support your guests might need, which keeps your guests happy and your worry to a minimum. So someone else takes care of everything and you still make some cash. More money, less worry. Sounds good. Find a co [e-mail] host so. All right. So what is this sport called that you brought me? These sticks?

[Samantha Crane]

Stickball.

[Marc Maron]

Just stickball?

[Samantha Crane]

It's just called stickball.

[Marc Maron]

There's no. In the language.

[Samantha Crane]

Oh, whoa. I actually don't know. We just call it stickball whenever we're down at the cultural center.

[Marc Maron]

The.

[Samantha Crane]

I think they say it's indigenous stickball, because stickball is also, like, what you play in, like, a playground in New York with, like, you know.

[Marc Maron]

That's like baseball, though.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

This looks more like a lacrosse situation. I wonder if lacrosse evolved out of this.

[Samantha Crane]

I don't. I think it did. And I think, like, a lot of the northern Muskegon tribes, they just play lacrosse now and then. A lot of the southern, like, southeastern Muskegon tribes, they play indigenous stickball.

[Marc Maron]

Old school.

[Samantha Crane]

Old school.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean, it seems like this would be more challenging. So I imagine the people that play the old school one are like, lacrosse is for babies. Cause look how small these catchers are. That's crazy.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So do you live here?

[Samantha Crane]

No, I live in Oklahoma.

[Marc Maron]

You do? Where?

[Samantha Crane]

I live in a town called Norman, which is like.

[Marc Maron]

I know her. I've heard that.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. You know her?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I know Norman.

[Samantha Crane]

You know her? Yeah. It's just like a college town.

[Marc Maron]

I was just there, you know.

[Samantha Crane]

I know. I was at your show.

[Marc Maron]

You were?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Did I meet you after? Briefly. I think I did.

[Samantha Crane]

And I'm so glad. I didn't know that I was gonna do this whenever we went to the show, because I have a real bad habit of, like, two glasses of wine in saying something really stupid to someone. Like, if I would have known I was gonna do this, I would have been like, oh, I'm gonna do.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. So I'm glad I did.

[Marc Maron]

I kind of remember after, when I came out. Yeah, that was kind of a good show.

[Samantha Crane]

It was great.

[Marc Maron]

And how far is Oklahoma City from where you are?

[Samantha Crane]

It's like 20.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, that's it.

[Samantha Crane]

20 minutes. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I don't. I always. I've had a good time in Oklahoma.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, we got good people.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, when I went to Tulsa, I was like, oh, my God, this place is great. And then I think, like, I could live here. I'll just move here. And then you realize, like, it's like four blocks, dude. You know.

[Samantha Crane]

It'S like one street.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. You can move here for the street.

[Samantha Crane]

Exactly. That's actually. That's so right. It's 100% right. Every time I have people come visit me, they're like, oh, I should move here. And it's like, you're going to get over it real quick. You have to be, like, from here, I think, to really, like, appreciate it.

[Marc Maron]

I think that's true. You know, I grew up in New Mexico, and you have. There's a connection to. If you grew up somewhere, it seems to become. It's part of your heart that you can't explain. So no matter what other people say about it or what, you know, the. How people see the city, you're like, well, this is. I live. It lives in me.

[Samantha Crane]

Exactly.

[Marc Maron]

Where did you grow up?

[Samantha Crane]

I grew up in a town called Shawnee.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

Which is also not that far from Oklahoma city. It's like 45 minutes.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And lived there until, like, I got out of high school, and then I just sort of bitbopped around the whole world and lived in various cities for, like, a year.

[Marc Maron]

Well, when you were growing up, what was the community? It's a. You were Choctaw.

[Samantha Crane]

I'm Choctop now. The tribe is based in southeastern Oklahoma, which is where most of my. The rest of my family live. Like my grandparents, my cousins, my aunts and uncles.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

But the town that I lived in was not. Is not part of that reservation. It was just where.

[Marc Maron]

An outlier.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, outlier.

[Marc Maron]

They don't. Why didn't they want you part of it?

[Samantha Crane]

No, no, it's not.

[Marc Maron]

It's just a land thing.

[Samantha Crane]

It's just a land thing. Yeah. It's just where the boundaries are. So I wasn't. I would only kind of get to be, like, around my culture, like, in the summers whenever we would go and we would go down there for, like, the entire summer onto the reservation. Yeah. My great grandparents and my great aunt, uncle, and my grandparents and a bunch of other uncles and aunts had, like, a sort of a farm down there that we would just spend a whole summer down there.

[Marc Maron]

You know, it's. It's like, it bothers me. And I always feel bad about it that I had until, like, I watched Reservation Dogs, you know, and I talked to Sterling. I had no sense of what that life was like. And. And I think, like. And I'm always kind of fascinated, but it seems like a great injustice that we don't know in general. That there are these communities that live in almost like a different time zone. And it's like. And it's. So the traditions and the sort of way of thinking about spirituality and stuff are so ancient and unique. But, like, you, I didn't know anything about it, and I'm an old man.

[Samantha Crane]

Well, that's actually surprising because you're from New Mexico and you never had any, like.

[Marc Maron]

Sure, we knew, you know, people. Indigenous people around, but it was like they were. The reservations are in Albuquerque, and the ones. And the Navajo Nation is a little far away. And then there was, you know, Acoma and there's Pecos. But it was. There was no way to learn the life, you know.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. Unless you were, like, invited in.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And then you could see what's going on. You just end up going to ruins.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. No, I understand that. I think. Yeah. Because the reservation system's a little bit different in Oklahoma. Where it's just like. It's all together. It's, like, mixed in with city borders. And so everybody just lives in the same cities. You're just, like, technically on reservations. So you get a lot more.

[Marc Maron]

It seems a little more dug in in Oklahoma. It seems like it's like, that's the place. And I. I don't. We. We don't need to talk about it the whole time. I just kind of find it interesting.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because I talked to Lily, too. Neil Gladstone. She's a friend of mine. And you did her movie. You did.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. I scored Fancy Dance. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That was great.

[Samantha Crane]

Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

The score was great. The movie was great.

[Samantha Crane]

The movie is amazing.

[Marc Maron]

I love it.

[Samantha Crane]

So good in it.

[Marc Maron]

I love it. But, like, it's a weird habit when you. You talk to people from that. Your culture, where you. You know, I put people in the position where you're like, well, you're representative, and I need some information. But she seems to deal with it pretty well.

[Samantha Crane]

She deals with it better than anybody that I know. She's, like, the perfect example of giving you just the right amount of information that you can, like, digest.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

Me, I am, like, the minute I start feeling, like, half comfortable with someone, I become, like, the oversharer or, like.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And I start saying things that I'm just like, this person has no idea what I'm talking about. So about.

[Marc Maron]

About your life?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. I'm just like, oh, they want to know. And then all of a sudden I'm telling them about, like, when I was 5 years old doing something with my uncle.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And they're just like, that's okay.

[Marc Maron]

I just want to know, well, that's exciting. What did your uncle do?

[Samantha Crane]

Oh, I don't know. That was just like a made up thing.

[Marc Maron]

But I mean, what was the family business out there? Were they, you know, where you come from?

[Samantha Crane]

So. Well, okay, so my. In Shawnee, where I kind of like grew up. Grew up. My dad owned a powerlifting gym.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Samantha Crane]

Yes. And he did like a mail order business through that and so. And also traveled a lot for that. And also, do you know what the power team is like from a Christian?

[Marc Maron]

No.

[Samantha Crane]

Okay, so like, in Oklahoma, the Southern Baptists had this thing called the power team, which was like a group of big buff men that would go around and do things at revivals and they would preach and like show feats of strength.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Samantha Crane]

Like they'd tear phone books in half.

[Marc Maron]

Or like just big dudes.

[Samantha Crane]

Just big dudes being like, I can do all things through Christ.

[Marc Maron]

Like tent revivals.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, tent revivals. Or like in an actual church.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, in a church. Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And my dad kind of did a version of that too, where he would like, go around and like preach and play songs and then like rip phone books in half.

[Marc Maron]

A Christian angle.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. It was like very much part of the Southern Baptist thing.

[Marc Maron]

It's so funny. I had a T shirt that someone got me. I don't know where. It's years ago. It must have been some Christian gift shop. It was Christ, like almost like in a push up position with the cross on his back with muscles.

[Samantha Crane]

Was it a Lord's gym T shirt?

[Marc Maron]

Maybe it said like, his pain your gain.

[Samantha Crane]

I think that's a Lord's gym T shirt. That was a very big deal in the 90s, especially around Oklahoma.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. It became like a. Yes, it must be a very popular T shirt.

[Marc Maron]

I really want another one. I just thought it was so cool I was wearing it ironically, but I did like the shirt. Yeah, just this rip Jesus cross on his back pushing up.

[Samantha Crane]

I'm pretty sure that it must be. We had one of those T shirts, like, cycling around my house when I was growing up. That's so funny.

[Marc Maron]

So you brought up Southern Baptist.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Was there an element of traditional spirituality? Always?

[Samantha Crane]

So that was weirdly. No because the Choctaws, especially in Oklahoma, are very ingrained in, like, the Southern Baptist just through.

[Marc Maron]

They got you guys.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, yeah, they got us. They got us. We even have, like, this thing. I mean, part of the reason why I started writing songs in the Choctaw language is because the only songs that really exist on recording in the language now are basically translations of Southern Baptist hymns. So we have, like, a big hymn tradition in the tribe where they sing the.

[Marc Maron]

The hymns, like the Jesus songs in the Choctaw language.

[Samantha Crane]

And I was just kind of like, I would like there to be something else for us to sing about in our language. But so, no, it was all pretty Southern Baptist.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And so, like, a song. Like, which one was it? When will you remain? That's a Choctaw language song that you just. Because I couldn't. I didn't know what you were saying.

[Samantha Crane]

So you don't know how to. You don't know the language.

[Marc Maron]

I really wish I did. But that's just one of your original songs. And you. And now, how does that land with people in the community? Is it exciting to them?

[Samantha Crane]

Yes, because I think they all feel the same way where they're just like. They wish that there was. They wish that they could sing in their language, but maybe not about Jesus.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

Because there's so much baggage attached to that.

[Marc Maron]

With Jesus.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. With the boarding schools and the.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

Colonialism and all of that. So I think they want to be able to connect to something that's, like, further back.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And do you speak it fluently?

[Samantha Crane]

No, I'm still, like, in the learning process.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. I mean, I am dedicated to that, like, as a practice to learn the language. That's something that I'm. That takes pretty high priority in my life, other than music stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

But it's. It's. It's. It's kind of like the further in that you get, the harder it gets. Because it's not just about learning words and vocabulary. You're basically, like, changing how you think about things. Cause that's what language does.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Samantha Crane]

Sometimes there's. There's not, like, side by side comparisons of, like, English way of thinking and Choctaw way of thinking.

[Marc Maron]

What. What do you. What. What do you feel is the. The theme. The main difference in terms of how it. Like, is it more picture oriented? Kind of.

[Samantha Crane]

It's very verb heavy.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Samantha Crane]

So everything is about, like, movement and change and doing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

My thing that I'm kind of obsessed with right now is there's no. There's no word for is or are in the language. So for instance, like, if I was gonna describe you, I could describe you. But because I'm not connecting you and a description with the word is or are, it's basically like a value saying you are. Only how I can describe you right now or at that moment, that doesn't mean that how I'm describing you is who you are. And I find that incredibly freeing and like kind of Buddhist, you know, it's like you are multitudes, you know, you contain all sorts of things and you're.

[Marc Maron]

Not locked into like. Because your perception of me is not me.

[Samantha Crane]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So there's sort of a nice boundary there and a respect almost.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, it's great. And just being able to think about things like that, think about people that way. Think about how you're perceiving the world around you.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Samantha Crane]

It. I think it's like, very freeing. It like, unlocks you from a lot of this idea of how I'm perceiving my life is how it's going.

[Marc Maron]

Right. That like, what is, you know, is relative to your perception of it. And then you can separate yourself from that and kind of be.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's good.

[Samantha Crane]

They had it figured out, man. I think.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. It. It's interesting to think about, like, what the sort of roots of that is because it's sort of like it innately respects autonomy. Right. Of people. It's kind of great. And when you're working in the language to write songs, you know, it must give you a whole other poetic sort of tool almost.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. Because when I'm writing in English, my go to is like, me, me, me, me, emo, me, me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

This is how I feel. This is who I am.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And then when I write in that language, it sort of like unlocks this whole other thing which is like, this is what I'm perceiving.

[Marc Maron]

Yes.

[Samantha Crane]

So it's very much like a more observational way of writing, which I find just like unlocking a whole different aspect of writing and creating.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And there's something about like just, I think the folk tradition in terms of like, that's a perception thing, but you are sort of documenting experience or journeys of hardship and stuff that it's not necessarily self referential at all.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, so wait, now I want to go back to this power gym, the powerlifting gym. So did you like, did the whole family work there kind of deal?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, it was very much a family business. Yeah. So like, we had the gym and then my dad also Competed in powerlifting, like, he would, but there's no money in powerlifting. So it's like you do it for the love of it. And so we would travel in this van to different competitions. So he could.

[Marc Maron]

They just had powerlifting competitions around.

[Samantha Crane]

Yes. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like states. You went to different states?

[Samantha Crane]

Different states. Even different countries. And he would. Basically, we had, like, our own job. So he would set up. In order to, like, pay for these trips that he would be going on, he would set up, like a little table with, like, vitamins or like protein bars or, like, equipment so he could, like, sell them to, like, other lifters. He was very resourceful, honestly. And so I would usually head that up. And that was back whenever they had the credit card things. That was like the big.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

The clunky.

[Marc Maron]

Like that had to make the imprint.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. So I had one of those that I would operate at, like, age, you know, eight, where I'm just like, taking people's credit card imprints. And then my brother would work this little video camera. My dad would set up a video camera. Cause he found out that all of these lifters wanted to watch their competition. But people didn't, like, really own video cameras.

[Marc Maron]

So. Like a VHS camera?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. So my brother would set up a VHS camera and film the whole meet. And then my dad would sell copies of the tapes.

[Marc Maron]

That's smart.

[Samantha Crane]

To people. And we just traveled around and did that, like, a lot.

[Marc Maron]

It's almost like. It's not quite like. I don't know why I associate it with wrestling, because it's not really like that. But it seems like the culture is kind of like that.

[Samantha Crane]

It is. Did you see Iron Claw?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

It's like that kind of underground wrestling world where it's, like, very family oriented. Because you have to have people that will, like, work for free for your dream, basically.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

So that's what we were doing. We were like the whole family working for free for my dad's dream.

[Marc Maron]

Where did your dad get this obsession from?

[Samantha Crane]

His dad. His dad was like one of these, like, Muscle beach people. Like, out here? Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

Like, they lived. They lived a lot of places whenever he was growing up. But he was out here and then up in Oakland for a while and stuff.

[Marc Maron]

And he was a powerlifter?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, he was like, just really into the whole Jack lalanne fitness sort of thing. And so I think that trickled down to my dad and his brothers and sisters. They're all Powerlifters, so. Yes, they were. My dad was the one that kind of was like Rose to the top of the pile, though.

[Marc Maron]

Is he a champion of some kind?

[Samantha Crane]

He was one of the best to ever live honestly for his weight. Yeah. Like, if you mention his name to anybody that's in powerlifting, they'll know who he is.

[Marc Maron]

What's his name?

[Samantha Crane]

Ricky Dale Crane. Such a great name for it, right?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. It's a powerlifting name.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Wow. So, wait, so were you powerlifting?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, when I was little. Yeah. Well, up until I was like, 16, I competed.

[Marc Maron]

How were you? Were you ranked?

[Samantha Crane]

I was. I got, like, records and stuff. But the thing was, is, like, I didn't really, like. I didn't like it. I just liked being good at something, I think.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. It seems like a fairly limited scope. I mean, it's like. It's not even a sport necessarily. It's a. It's a. What would you call it? It's a competitive thing, but you're doing one thing. You're not playing. There's not a team element.

[Samantha Crane]

No, it's an individual sport.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So you were good, huh?

[Samantha Crane]

I was, but just purely, like, genetically low center of gravity, like. Right.

[Marc Maron]

But, like, are you still ripped? No, no, it's gone. When was the last time you put some weights on your shoulders?

[Samantha Crane]

I mean, probably like a year ago. And it was, like, very little, I'm sure. It's very like my.

[Marc Maron]

But I bet your muscle memory, you still got the form in it.

[Samantha Crane]

Oh, yeah, I do, actually. One time I was, like, at the YMCA and I was just doing, like a squat, like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And some guy was like, you have great form.

[Marc Maron]

And you're like, let me tell you.

[Samantha Crane]

Let me tell you. This was hammered into my head from very young age.

[Marc Maron]

So when does. Your dad's not around anymore?

[Samantha Crane]

He passed away in October. It was very sudden.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, sorry.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So you have just one brother or how many?

[Samantha Crane]

One brother, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And is he still in the powerlifting racket?

[Samantha Crane]

He runs my dad's gym now.

[Marc Maron]

It's still there?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Where you grew up?

[Samantha Crane]

Well, it moved around a couple of times, but it is still in Shawnee. He had it in a garage, and then he had it in, like, another, like, shopping center building. And now it's, like, in a building that's kind of near his house.

[Marc Maron]

So I wonder. He just chose that cause of his dad. Huh. And he focused on that one thing.

[Samantha Crane]

I think he just saw that he was really good at it and he just wanted to be the best at something, I guess.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, that makes sense. And I imagine your brother kind of Expanded the gym to include more things.

[Samantha Crane]

No, I mean, like I said, my brother has just now gotten this handed to him because my dad passed away in October. So, like, my dad or my brother worked there, but he's, like, just now gotten it, and it's still 4.

[Marc Maron]

Power lifting.

[Samantha Crane]

It's very much like the. It's not like walking into a planet Fitness. It's like, you know, like the same eight guys who spend, like, three hours there every day and, like, go take a smoke break in between their sets and, like, you know, it's like that kind of very gritty.

[Marc Maron]

You walk in and you're like, oh, this isn't right for me. This is what?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, no, if you're, like, a woman that's trying to, like, tone up, this is not where you go.

[Marc Maron]

Like, they probably call it the scary gym.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, probably.

[Marc Maron]

So at what point do you gravitate towards music?

[Samantha Crane]

I think probably, like, 15, 16. I just.

[Marc Maron]

You're starting to realize powerlifting is not.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, I'm realizing that's not for me. Yeah, I was. I mean, a couple of things, like, converged where I was realizing that I was more of, like, a creative person. I mean, I always, like, wrote and stuff growing up.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, you did? Like, like, poetry, stories.

[Samantha Crane]

Poetry, stories, things like that? Yeah, but I didn't have, like, an example of that in my life. I mean, being in a small town, you were either doing ffa, like, agriculture stuff, or you were doing sports. Yeah, that was kind of it. So I think I was just starting to, like, listen to music more. And there was guitars at our house because my dad played.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, he did.

[Samantha Crane]

But I'm very stubborn, and I don't like people teaching me things. So I'm like, I. Or I didn't at the time.

[Marc Maron]

What was the music in the house?

[Samantha Crane]

Like,'60s folk, you know, Simon and Garfunkel, Bob Dylan.

[Marc Maron]

Those are good.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

Joan Baez. Yeah. My dad was, like, a huge folkie, so.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So that worked.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Could have been Bob Seger.

[Samantha Crane]

It could have been. Could have been Bob Seger. It could have been. I mean, it could have been anything.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But, like, he was specifically a folk guy.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, he was a folk guy.

[Marc Maron]

Like stories. Yeah, yeah. And did you find that, like, was there any influence from native community that seeped in, or was. Were you distant from that?

[Samantha Crane]

Well, I mean, I. Like I said, I was, like, culturally a part of that, especially during the summers. Yeah, but the music element of our tribe, like, what we have contact with, is mainly just, like, social dances and Like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, right.

[Samantha Crane]

So there's not a lot of.

[Marc Maron]

It's interesting, though, that there was not that many contemporary kind of rock bands and stuff. There's like two or three.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, there is this, like. I'm kind of just now discovering this. But there's this guy that does a radio show called. I think it's called Wataka Radio. Out of Minnesota.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And he's Lakota, I think.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

But he has a radio show where all he plays are, like, contemporary native musicians that were doing stuff between like the. I guess the 50s and 70s. Ish.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

So there's all of these, like, undiscovered records and tapes and stuff that he just finds. And he plays these on his radio show. And it's very cool.

[Marc Maron]

Well, there was a. There's a collection. I think it was put out by maybe Numero or Light in the Attic. That is all kind of contemporary native music from, like the 60s.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, I've heard that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. It's kind of interesting. And I'm kind of obsessed with this guy, Jesse. Ed Davis.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. He's from Norman, where I live.

[Marc Maron]

That guy, man.

[Samantha Crane]

Amazing.

[Marc Maron]

What a fucking great guitar player. Yeah, I was. He's got. There's like two solo albums of his that are really good. Yeah, he kind of. He kind of hit the wall kind of hard, though. Yeah, but he did that. He did that solo on Dr. My Eyes, that Jackson Brown thing. He's good.

[Samantha Crane]

I was just listening to an interview with him the other day.

[Marc Maron]

Where's that?

[Samantha Crane]

It was on this Wateca radio. They played it and he was talking about how he was hanging out with George Harrison. And he needed one extra song for his solo record. And so George played him this song and he was like. I could tell he didn't really wanna give it to me. Cause he wanted to do it himself. But I talked him into it and I cut it. And so he got one of George Harrison's songs.

[Marc Maron]

He played with everybody. Leon Russell, he played with Lennon, I think. Harry N. Like a real studio guy here. They just released a biography of him. But. All right, so. So you listen in folk music and. And you figured out how to play on your own.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, I think I just went and bought like, a guitar chord book from like, the local music store.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. All you need is four chords. Really?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. And that's really what I started out with. It was like G, C, E minor D. And I just started. Started like, writing like, poetry to music, basically. I guess.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And when do you like. And so your influences are primarily the folk records, they.

[Samantha Crane]

I mean, that was sort of my. That was the easiest, like, entry level. I was definitely listening to a lot more pop, like, or whatever was on the radio at that point. Yeah, but the folk thing seemed like low barrier entry, you know, like, you could listen to that and be like, oh, all I need is a guitar and then I can, like, write a song.

[Marc Maron]

You can make it your own real. Yeah, because you're. You don't need anyone else.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, you can visualize that as a teenager a little bit easier than, like, oh, I need four people and amps and like. Yeah, and like a drummer and a bass player. Like, that feels very difficult when you're like 15 or 16.

[Marc Maron]

So how long did you just play solo? When did you start playing out?

[Samantha Crane]

I. So there was like a little coffee shop in Shawnee that had an open mic, and I did that for a couple years while I was still learning. And I'm sure it was very bad. I think I was playing like, Radiohead covers or like Bob Dylan covers or something.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, Bob Dylan covers. And like, which ones?

[Samantha Crane]

The times, they are changing.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, of course.

[Samantha Crane]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, you gotta do that.

[Samantha Crane]

You gotta do that one.

[Marc Maron]

You weren't gonna tackle, like, Visions of Johanna.

[Samantha Crane]

No, no. Or like, what's the. The one that, like the hurricane. That's like seven minutes long or something.

[Marc Maron]

I tried, like, I play sometimes, you know, I play with some guys sometimes, but we play out and I decided I'm an okay player, but I decided, like, let's do isis. And like, about like, midway through the song, I'm like, I'm not that confident in playing and singing. And I'm like, we've still got, like, half of this.

[Samantha Crane]

I'm so over it.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it's just like, if you lose your kind of, but, you know, mojo in the middle and you start to second guess yourself, you're like, I can't get out.

[Samantha Crane]

I'm trapped.

[Marc Maron]

Trapped in isis. It's a good song, but. Oh, my God. So. But are you. Are you building any sort of following at any point?

[Samantha Crane]

Not until I was really just doing, like, open mics. And then I'd drive to the city, to Oklahoma City and do open mics. Yeah, you could, like, find there was like, a classified section in, like, the local arts paper that just like, listed.

[Marc Maron]

All the, like, what years of this? Like, in the early 2000s or.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, it would have been like, 2002, 3, 4.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at what point does someone say, let's make a record.

[Samantha Crane]

I think how that kind of moved into me doing this for like, a. More of like a job thing was that right after I. Well, after I graduated from high school, I tried college for, like, a semester at Oklahoma Baptist University.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, okay.

[Samantha Crane]

It was in Shawnee.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

I didn't know what I wanted to do, so that just was like, well, it's here. And then I heard about a musician's commune colony thing on Martha's Vineyard.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Huh.

[Samantha Crane]

Where you could apply, you could send in a tape, and if you. You got picked and you'd go live there for, like, eight months and they would teach you how to record your own music on Pro Tools.

[Marc Maron]

Where'd you find that?

[Samantha Crane]

I just heard about it through friend of a friend.

[Marc Maron]

And you got in?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, I applied and I sent in. I think I sent in a cassette tape recording of me doing the Times they are Changing. I'm pretty sure if I remember correctly. And I got selected to do that. So I just went out on to Martha's Vineyard and lived there for, like, eight months.

[Marc Maron]

And was that the first time you were out of Oklahoma?

[Samantha Crane]

No, I mean, we were traveling a lot for, like, because of power lifting, but this was the first time that I felt like I was, like, doing something attached to music and on your own. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And again, you gotta take the ferry out there and you're stuck on that island for a while. Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. You're stuck.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And you gotta deal with the island people. Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

Right. Well, I'd rather deal with the islander, the island people, than, like, the rich people that come in for, like, a month or two in the summer.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Martha, like, you. Yeah. I used to do a gig out there because I lived in Boston for years. And you got to take that. What's that? Something bluff where you take the boat out and go across and then you're just on the island. But it's pretty.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, it is.

[Marc Maron]

I might be thinking in Nantucket. Martha's Vineyard or Nantucket, where they have to. They're not allowed to paint their houses any different colors.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, they have a lot of weird rules, like, no chain, like, restaurant are, like, allowed. And. Yeah, they all have to be like gray houses. The gray. Like, shingle.

[Marc Maron]

Exactly. Yeah. So where. Where is. How many people are in this thing?

[Samantha Crane]

There was, like, 20.

[Marc Maron]

Oh.

[Samantha Crane]

So we all lived, like, in this big barn, like, in bunk rooms. And we just, like, play guitar. Yeah, we just jammed, honestly. Jammed and learned how to, like, use pro Tools. And we put on, like, fake variety shows like, once a week. We'd all, like, form bands with different People.

[Marc Maron]

And. And so that's the first time you're playing with other people?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, it was the first time that I did a lot of, like, any. Any sort of, like, collaboration or, like, learning how to. I learned a lot about, like, song structure, I think, like, just from seeing how other people.

[Marc Maron]

And electric. Was there any. Were you guys playing real bands? Was there drummers and stuff?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, real bands. Real full bands.

[Marc Maron]

So that must have been exciting.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, it was exciting. It was good.

[Marc Maron]

And after that, you felt more confident?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, I think I felt like, well, I've come out here and I've, like, done music with other people. And so that sort of. And I met this girl named Beth out there who we sort of just decided we would start, like, touring. This was the days of MySpace, when you could basically message venues on MySpace and send them, like, a song, and if they liked you, they would just. They'd book you.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And so we just did that for, like, two years. We just got a. I think it was like, a Bonneville, like an old Bonneville which had a massive trunk, and we put our guitars in there and we just booked ourselves tours for, like, two years.

[Marc Maron]

Did you play together or. Just wanted, like, a duo. Oh, really?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

What's she up to?

[Samantha Crane]

She still does this? Yeah, she lives in St. Louis and she does, like, singer, songwriter stuff.

[Marc Maron]

What's her name?

[Samantha Crane]

Beth Bambara.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah. You guys still friends?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, I mean, we're acquaintances. Like, we've kind of, like, gone our own separate ways a little bit, but, like, we're still friendly.

[Marc Maron]

Were you doing all original stuff?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Wow.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, we were.

[Marc Maron]

And, like, so that got you kind of, like, that toughened you up, I imagine.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. I mean, that was, like, the true road dog days, where you're, like, you know, getting change off the ground and putting it in a sock so you can, like, buy your coffee the next morning and, like, staying with the craziest people you know, because you can't. You're not like, at a level where you can like, get a hotel or anything.

[Marc Maron]

So, like, fans or people that just.

[Samantha Crane]

People that were at the bar, not even fans. Like, you know, we're, like, playing on stage, and we're just like, if anyone's got a place for a stage.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my God.

[Samantha Crane]

How am I still alive?

[Marc Maron]

I don't know.

[Samantha Crane]

I don't know.

[Marc Maron]

Did it get weird?

[Samantha Crane]

Oh, yeah. So many. So many weird things. There was, like, one time where we were in Nebraska and this guy was like. We, like, went back to this guy's apartment and he asked Us if we wanted, like, anything to drink. And I think Beth was like, I'll take like, a gin and tonic if you have it. He came back with, like a Walmart tumbler. Like a giant, like, 16 ounce glass full of gin and tonic, Heavy on the gin, you know? And we were like, we're gonna go. We're gonna sleep in the car. Like, we were just like, this isn't good. This is not.

[Marc Maron]

That's so scary, man.

[Samantha Crane]

I know.

[Marc Maron]

You would never think to do that now.

[Samantha Crane]

No, I don't. I think you have to be just totally naive and, like, feel invincible. Like, as a kid, you're so lucky.

[Marc Maron]

It didn't get too fucked up.

[Samantha Crane]

I know. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So after that, what. What leads to, you know, the studio? How does it, like, how. What brings you the attention to, you know, do a record?

[Samantha Crane]

We just traveled around for, like, two years, just touring a ton. And then we. There was this guy that. Oh, that's what it was. Beth's boyfriend was in a band called Barry, which was like. I think they were based out of Chicago at the time. There's a very, like, Midwest part of that whole, like, Midwest post rock, like Captain Jazz, sort of. I'm trying to. I wasn't very classify it. I wasn't very, like, into all of that music. It was like, very much the Midwestern, like, emo, post punk sort of scene that was going on at the time. And they were sort of part of that. And they let us come open for them on a tour.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, good.

[Samantha Crane]

And the lead singer, Joey, he had, like, a little studio. And so between tours, we recorded, like, my first ep. And then from there, I started doing what everyone tells you you shouldn't do, which is, like, send an unsolicited demo to, like, record labels.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And that's what I was doing. I was literally just like, mailing my EP to different record labels, and one of them ended up liking it and re releasing it. It was kind of funny how it came about. It was. The label was called Ramser Records. They're based out of North Carolina.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And their big band is the Avett Brothers.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. People love those guys.

[Samantha Crane]

They do.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

They love them.

[Marc Maron]

It's like, there's so many chunks of music that I miss, you know? I know Judd Apatow did, like, a big documentary on them, right? I think so, yeah. And I'm like, I don't know these guys at all.

[Samantha Crane]

They have a very, like, insular, like.

[Marc Maron]

Fan base, but it's sort of like, of the Americana ilk. Yeah, yeah. Cause, like, it seems like. Cause it feels like you kind of came up in that world a little bit.

[Samantha Crane]

I did, and it was, like, not the right world for me to come up in, I felt.

[Marc Maron]

You don't think so?

[Samantha Crane]

No, I think it was so stilted for me. Like, it. I think it really affected, like, how long it's taken me to get to the point where I'm, like, making the records that I want to make. I think I put out a lot of records where I was, like, trying, because the label that I was on was very much, like, both feet in that world.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And that was how I was being, like, marketed.

[Marc Maron]

Well, probably made sense to them, you know, like, aside from being a female artist, but being a native artist and having that representation in that type of music was probably. They were like, yeah, this is. This fits.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. And I wore, like, a plain old shirt.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So you're good.

[Samantha Crane]

So they were like, you're good. Come on.

[Marc Maron]

But, I mean, I thought that first album was good. It sounds good. But you didn't feel like the songs in the night.

[Samantha Crane]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Marc Maron]

But as I listened to the arc of your stuff, I could tell that you were kind of fighting to find your own groove. But, I mean, that band sounded pretty good to me.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, the band was great.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And, I mean, I think we always, like, put out stuff that, like, sounded good enough, but it just wasn't, like, what I.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Samantha Crane]

It wasn't like, what.

[Marc Maron]

Matching.

[Samantha Crane]

Wasn't matching what I was. I was giving up, like, a lot of myself to, like, try to fit into this world that I actually didn't know much about. I didn't even know, like, what Americana was, what they were like.

[Marc Maron]

It's kind of hard to define, isn't it?

[Samantha Crane]

I think it's actually more of, like, a fashion sense than it is, like, a music, honestly. Like, I think it's more like a scene than it is, like, a type of.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that happens with music. I mean, it just. I guess there's a roots element to it, and it must all come from, like, you know, it almost feels like some sort of. I'm sure people have thought about this, because I know the Americana world, and it seems to come from almost like, you know, the band. You know, that sensibility of, you know, integrating all these kind of fundamentally American sounds and styles into this one thing that is kind of blues, kind of country, kind of, you know, whatever. But there are artists that kind of fall into that. But you're right, they might not call themselves Americana, but Certain artists were like, well, if we're gonna. If there's momentum behind this style, this idea, this brand, why not be in it? Yeah, but. But. So when do you. But you're still doing all your own songs?

[Samantha Crane]

Yes. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So, you know. So that was being represented.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, it was. I. But I think I was. Because I was young and very unsure of myself. I was maybe trying to write songs that maybe I am not the best at writing. You know, like trying to kind of make something fit into like a. A genre or something.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, it seems like by Kid Face you're in. You.

[Samantha Crane]

I think I'm like getting in there. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

I really don't. I really don't feel like I'm fully getting into like finishing a record and being like, that was what I wanted to make until I started like, producing my own records. And that wasn't until A Small Death, which is like just the last record, and then the ep.

[Marc Maron]

That record's beautiful.

[Samantha Crane]

Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

Because the sound is like, you know.

[Samantha Crane]

Jason Molina, he's my. Like really. He's my. Excuse me, all natives. He's my spirit animal. Yeah, I love him. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because like, when I listen to that, I mean, like, through. In some of the other records, you know, I can hear a through line of, you know, folk's structure and style and some of the ways you write. But like, on that one, it was. Cause I'm like, he kills me.

[Samantha Crane]

He's amazing.

[Marc Maron]

It's the best. But I definitely heard that in that record.

[Samantha Crane]

Well, good. I would love to channel anything about him. He was a true. Just a true poet. A true honest, open, raw nerve of.

[Marc Maron]

The vulnerability of it.

[Samantha Crane]

So vulnerable.

[Marc Maron]

I got choked up when you got excited about him because there's something about what he makes present and available that at times it's almost hard to take.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And so when did you ever meet him?

[Samantha Crane]

I didn't. There's actually a song on Kid Face that is written for him. It's called for the Minor. I wrote that song for him.

[Marc Maron]

It's a great song. I wrote that down. Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

I was actually. We were supposed to be like playing some shows with them later that year, so I was gonna get to meet him, but he passed away before that happened. And so I wrote this song just like kind of commiserating that. But like, he. I had a lot of friends that knew him and stuff, so I kind of got the down low about him through that. But I had this moment when I was. It was very early on when I started writing songs. I was probably 16 or 17, and I used to drive up to Oklahoma City a lot to go to this venue called the Conservatory, which was just like a DIY sort of punk club.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And there was a record store right next to it called Size Records. And this was back when you would kind of browse a CD shelf and buy a CD just because you like the COVID And I bought a Songs Ohio cd. I think it was the Lioness, just because I liked the COVID And I was driving home after the show that night, and I put the CD in my car and was listening to it on my drive back, and I was just, like, full, like, crying more than I've ever cried in my life. Like, at age 16, not having felt anything that this guy has gone through because he's older than me. I haven't experienced that in my life at this point. And just. I'm getting emotional thinking about it. Just, like, losing my mind at how in touch it seemed like he was with his thoughts and his, like, emotions. And I was just like, I want to do that. Like, that's what I want to do.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And sort of elevating his struggle.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, on all levels. It's hard to even explain it because I don't know that a lot of people know him. They should, but. Yeah. Well, I mean, he wasn't that much older than you.

[Samantha Crane]

No, he was. Yeah. I think he's like, maybe.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, he died in his 30s, I think.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. I don't know. Off the top of my head.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Well, not yet.

[Samantha Crane]

Maybe seven, eight years.

[Marc Maron]

And I don't know. Like, I came to him later, you know, I didn't know his stuff because that label. Which label was it?

[Samantha Crane]

Secretly Canadian?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, Secretly Canadian used to send me records.

[Samantha Crane]

Oh, cool.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, they sent me that Magnolia Electric Company record with Farewell Transmission. And I was like, what? What the fuck is this? And then you gotta go back and you're like, oh. And then you're in that guy's spirit, which is so heavy and beautiful. And it's not just the words. There's just something. There's certain performers that have something in their voice where you can feel the weight of it, of whatever they're going through. And Townes Van Zandt has that to a degree, where you listen to it and you're like, this is. There's a sadness here that is, like, unfathomable in a way. And with those kind of performers, I, like, I have to. I can only listen to it because you got to prepare yourself.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. You can only listen to it at certain times. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, I mean, oddly, I can't even listen to Brian Wilson. And that's pretty upbeat stuff, but it's like he's so troubled, and I can feel that. I don't know what. What that resonates, how that. Why that resonates. I tend to think that it's because I have a. A slightly depressive father. So there's a neural pathway in my mind that lives there. And then when someone can be in it but kind of bring it up, it hits me very hard.

[Samantha Crane]

Same. I think mine comes from the idea of loneliness. Anytime I'm. I grew up with a very insult. I spent a lot of time alone. And so I have a very introspective, like, lonely thing that I can get into, and it gets real dark and real sad real fast. And that's. I think when I hear someone like Jason Molina singing in that way, I can just imagine that he's, like, all alone. And it's like. And navigating and navigating that. And it's, like hitting something really deep in me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I guess that's it, you know, and it's so specific. And I think that's an interesting thing about art in general, that, you know so many of us. And even because, you know, the way I do what I do, it's pretty specific, and it has to resonate with the person. People that are gonna, you know, connect with that. But it's hard to sort of realize, like, well, it's not everybody. Cause there's part of you that's sort of like, I want my stuff to be for everybody. And then at a certain point, you gotta just like, well, I'm helping these people, because there is a help element to it. Right?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Do you feel that about your audience?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, I think, you know, I mean, just from the perspective of being, like, a songwriter who's trying to pay their bills, there is that element that always pops up where you're like, I wish more people got this or something. But honestly, I think the way that you just put it is perfect. Which is just like, not everyone serves the same purpose, like, within art. I was just up in Alaska, in Sitka, Alaska, at the end of January, and I was helping out. I was doing, like, a fundraiser for a tribe up there called the Tlingit, the Kixadi clan of Tlingit Indians. And they gave me an honor name called Shikaikliksa, which is. I don't think I'm saying that completely right, but what it means is it comes from a story that means, like, due to colonialism and how things have gone, all of their culture and traditions have been put in this box, and there's, like, a lid on top of the box, and there are people that come along that push the lid just a little bit off. So more of the traditions and more of the culture, more of the language can come out.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And the verb. The action of pushing that lid off is the word chicaglikse. So my name means to push a little bit off the edge, and that's how I feel like my position as an artist or a musician is it's not to be the one that brings everything to the masses. It's the one that just pushes, like. Pushes music or art or songwriting or whatever, just a little bit forward so that way somebody else down the line can grab something there and utilize it in their practice.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

So I think, yeah, what I'm doing is not necessarily for the masses. It's for me, it's for my community. It's for the people that come to the shows that connect really deeply with it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

But it's just sort of like another addition to. To what we need, which is just human vulnerability and connection. That's literally all I'm trying to. And that's what you do in your shows.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's. It's. It's kind of a. It's. It's kind of a weighty. It's. It's. There's a heaviness to it. But, you know, I'm 61, and to really accept, you know, that there is a. Not limitations. But, you know, once you get to that place where you are who you are, I mean, you know, if you're not happy there because of the reaction to you or how many people react to you, you know, it's just a recipe for unhappiness.

[Samantha Crane]

You have to accept it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And it's not bad, you know, but, like, for years, I was just sort of like. And you saw what I do. I was sort of like, why doesn't everybody love this? I mean, doesn't everybody experience what I'm experiencing? And they don't.

[Samantha Crane]

They don't.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, the people that do kind of lock in, in a way where it hits them differently than the people that are, like, looking at you like, some totally different thing. They don't understand it, but they're like, all right, they're getting laughs, but they're. The. The angle is sort of like, well, she's a little sad or He's a. You know, he's got some problems, but it was entertaining. But then there are other people that are like, oh, thank God I'm not alone in this stuff. Yeah. So. But when you talk about the community, like, what is the reaction in generally your experience with all the different tribes that you deal with in terms of performing and whatever?

[Samantha Crane]

I mean, I think they must be excited. Yeah. Because in general, the sign of a living language is that. Not that people are just speaking it or, like, that it's still around or that there are speakers of it. It's that if people are making, like, writing books in the language or if they're writing songs or, you know, doing something with the language. And so I. I think, like, I wish I could do more, but because I'm like, kind of what I explained earlier, where the further in that you get, the harder it gets, because it's more about, like, a mind change than just learning the language. And so I'm in that situation now where I'm having to be more serious about, like, the mental capacity of writing in the language now. But I think everybody that I've come across, they're, like, really starved for wanting new contemporary songs in a indigenous language. And so, I mean, I get. I feel like it's just been great to see people respond to that, but in general.

[Marc Maron]

But you still got to play to the masses a little bit.

[Samantha Crane]

Well, yeah, I mean, I got to play to English speakers, but that's what I mean. I'm an English speaker. I've got feelings inside. I've got to get out now. I can't wait to learn the Choctaw language in full.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But I imagine not unlike. And just having a voice from that community is representation in a way where we're still moving forward and we still have who we are, whether it's English or not. Because I think I talked about that with Sterlin and stuff. I read something somewhere that he had said something to you about activism. Do you remember?

[Samantha Crane]

Oh, yeah, it might have been. It might have been like he had a podcast for a little bit, like, before he got.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Samantha Crane]

Before he got turned into real big Sterling, that we did, like, a conversation on there once, and he did say something really interesting to me once, which was about, there's always this feeling like you're not doing enough, I guess, in. In quote, unquote activism of, like, pushing forward. The. The like agenda is not the right word, but, you know, pushing. Pushing forward, like, the identity of Native peoples or something. And I think I was expressing that to him just feeling like, I'm not going to these, like, protests and I'm not going. Cause like, I've got a job and I've got to like, do this. And I got.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And he was like, you just being an active, like, Choctaw artist, that's activism. It's activism to be living, doing what you're doing at this moment.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Samantha Crane]

Something to that extent.

[Marc Maron]

Well, he said. Cause we weren't supposed to be alive.

[Samantha Crane]

Right? Exactly.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

So that was just. I mean, I was like, oh, yeah. Okay, that makes sense.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

Good job.

[Marc Maron]

Good. Well, so like, coming into like, so with small death that you feel was the sort of portal to you in exactly the way you wanted it to be. Why that record. What do you think got you to that place?

[Samantha Crane]

Well, that record was really interesting because I was at a really dark time personally, because I had just gotten into a pretty severe car wreck that really affected my. Like, I couldn't use my hands at all.

[Marc Maron]

What?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, I had like, gotten into a bad car wreck and there was a lot of, like, skeletal and nervous system, like, damage.

[Marc Maron]

What happened? Were you on a highway or in.

[Samantha Crane]

A. I was just like going through like a four, like kind of a busy, like four way intersection. And like, I got t boned. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's my biggest fear in life.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, it's. I still flinch going through like four ways.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. It never happened to me, but I'm always scared of it.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. And it kind of messed up my. It did a lot of damage to like, my shoulders and my neck, which affected my arms and my hands.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And so I got really depressed because I couldn't do. I couldn't play guitar. I couldn't, like, sit down and like, I didn't think that I could like, sit down and write songs. I couldn't even, like, hold a cup.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my God.

[Samantha Crane]

And I got really depressed. I was just like, laying in bed for like, you know, six months, seven months, just not in a good spot. And I finally started reaching out to, like, different therapists, physical therapists and stuff. And I started working through a lot of the stuff and. But in the meantime, I just had like a voice recorder that I would just lay in bed and like, kind of hum songs into.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And not thinking, like, I would ever get to play them or anything. I just thought, this thing that I've spent my whole life doing, which is being a musician, I'm not gonna be that anymore. And now I have to figure out what I am now. I mean, this is where that's the danger of is and are. If you're thinking about really attaching a caricature to yourself, the minute that that gets taken away, who the fuck are you? You know that's dangerous. Which they had that figured out. Right. They were like, we're not going to attach one thing. You are a lot of things. I was attaching one thing and it got taken away from me and I lost it.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But the voice you found within that to save your brain is what that record is.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Wow.

[Samantha Crane]

So that became when I finally got sort of. Well, the other weird thing about that is that's when I started using open tunings too. Because as I couldn't do, like, bar chords or things, as I started getting use of my hands, a friend of mine suggested just tune it to where you just have to hold down, like one string or something at a time. It'll be easier on your hand. And that's when I started kind of going in that direction.

[Marc Maron]

So that's. So that, like, you used open tunings on that record?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, well, that's kind of when I started using them. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that. Well, because that creates a whole other vibe.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, it's a different vibe. And there's more space for other things to be doing stuff that you normally wouldn't hear.

[Marc Maron]

Right. Cause Keith Richards talks about that open G tuning as being kind of magical because when you have those open strings, the vibe is totally different. Right.

[Samantha Crane]

Well, it lets your brain go. Oh, I've never noticed that space being open before.

[Marc Maron]

Right, right.

[Samantha Crane]

So what can I put there? Yeah, it just opens up the arrangements and everything, too. But that was. Yeah. So eventually I got. I could use my hands again. And I went back to these little voice recordings and I started making demos and I was just like, I've got to turn. This is a record, so I've got to make the record.

[Marc Maron]

But that's so amazing because, like, if you write like that, as opposed to, like, you know, writing on paper or sitting with a guitar and trying to, you know, or if you already have a melody or some chords. I don't know how you do it generally, but the connection to yourself when you're just sort of like. It's just like, this is. You know.

[Samantha Crane]

Do you do that, like, with comedy? Do you just ever, like, walk around or, like.

[Marc Maron]

Talking to myself.

[Samantha Crane]

Talking to yourself?

[Marc Maron]

No, what I usually do is I think. And then step one is I think. And then, like, if I make a connection in my head or I have a different way of looking at something, you know, I'll Just. I'll make note of it. And it's not a joke, per se, but I know there's a turn there. If it's not a story, you know, that, you know, things for me, usually I'll have an idea, but most of it evolves in real time on stage. Cause it's almost like I corner myself. Like I have a place I want to go, and then I'll just start going. And I'll hope the part of my brain that makes things funny will step in and save me from embarrassment.

[Samantha Crane]

Nice. I love that. That's so. I mean, that's. I feel like that's how I live my life. I'm just hoping that, like, I'll make. I'll make up the, like, punchline before I get caught with my pants down.

[Marc Maron]

Exactly. Yeah. That's. That. That's the whole thing. That's like. That. That is the edge of it, you know? And then over time, they. They kind of evolve, you know, like, with this. With this bunch of stuff in dealing with the political situation and my particular audiences and having to address that, to sort of bring the people together and then kind of this idea. I don't know if I was kind of doing it in Oklahoma yet. Did I do the evacuating with my cats story?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Well, that's sort of built into something because I had this. Because I'm pretty heavy, you know, I can be pretty. It can be pretty heavy, a lot of that stuff. And I'm riding this edge. But I knew I had to address the political situation. And that has a different tone to it. And then I got it in my head. It's like, all right, dude, you've established that. So now can you just be entertaining? Can you just. These people just, like, let's just go. I mean, you've been doing this a long time. Nothing has to be. It doesn't have to all be so heavy. So that cat thing was just sort of this gift. And the way it kind of built out, you know, people. It's just hilarious.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then I get into trauma and stuff.

[Samantha Crane]

That's what I. That's kind of like what I do at my shows. I tend to be. Have little, like, quippy jokes and stories in between, which is. Someone has. Well, a lot of people have noted to me, like, that what I do and say between songs is very different from the songs. And it's like. Yeah. Because I know that, like, this shit is heavy. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

We're going in.

[Samantha Crane]

And I'm not trying to, like, make you all want to kill yourself by the end of the night. Like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

I would like you to understand that, like, you can hold both things at the same time.

[Marc Maron]

Not only can you hold it, but you have to. You have to. But it also shows this sort of that. That you as a person, you know, has. It's a broad spectrum, you know, like. And sometimes I think that's a liability for me because I have a fairly. It's not just a big personality, but, like, I. You know, I have a lot of different wavelengths that I go on, and anytime you can engage as many of those as possible, I think it's a good thing as an expressive person, because when you get locked into that thing that you said you were fighting with no R. Or is that when you see yourself a certain way and then you kind of get locked into that, it becomes a box. And you don't acknowledge. You don't take chances. Do you know?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And when you do songs, if you want to lighten things up with your personality, I think it's the best thing. But some people just want to lock into the. Like, just do that thing. Just make me sad.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. Well, I mean, honestly, it's, like, probably easier to, like, market.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

You know what I mean? So it's a lot easier when someone has a specific.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, totally.

[Samantha Crane]

Persona.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. She does this, he does that, and then you get in. And then when you meet these people and you're like, I don't even know what you're talking about.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like, because, oh, Maren's a cranky guy. I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. You know, that kind of stuff.

[Samantha Crane]

Had a cranky moment.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. Or that's some part of me.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But, you know, like, I pretty. I'm pretty expansive. Yeah. But. But that's. If. If they can't fit you into a box or you don't box yourself, it becomes sort of trickier to sell. And then you've got to just do it on your own.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So once you. When you. When you put out Small Death and you got your hands back after.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. I mean, I still have, like, some issues, but I can still. I can play again. And.

[Marc Maron]

But how did that inform the new record, Gumshoe? How did that. Like, what you did with Small Death? Cause, like, I just. I did a movie, and there's a book. It's about Bruce Springsteen making Nebraska.

[Samantha Crane]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, he was in the middle of, you know, kind of doing the songs for Born in the USA and then he had this kind of existential crisis and he holed himself up in, you know, some rented house in New Jersey and with a guitar and a four track and he did Nebraska. Do you know the record? Yeah, so. And. And he became obsessed with the sound that he got on the cassette. And after they tried to do the songs in the studio, he's like, no, I need the cassette. I want that to be it. And there was no way to translate the transfer. The. But. But the journey of having. Of him having this, you know, he needed to make that record. And it's a dark record, you know, and he comes out of that and he does Born in the usa. But he almost had to exercise himself, but. And eventually I think it did inform some of his other stuff or it gave him a whole other range of ways to express himself. Did you find that with it?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, I think. I mean, it was. It's like what you were talking about earlier about, like, not trying to put yourself in a box, you know, I think that record, A Small Death Allowed, that was the first time I like, produced a record myself.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And it was the first time I just fully trusted, like, every decision and every feeling that I had.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And that opened up a whole new. And then I saw, like, how well it was received. And so that opened up like a whole new world of just trusting myself.

[Marc Maron]

Confidence.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, confidence. And also just like not trusting myself. But also when you trust yourself, it's not like your opinion is the end all, be all, it's that you actually feel more comfortable receiving ideas and criticisms from other people because you know that you have a trust that it's gonna end up where it needs to be as long as you're present.

[Marc Maron]

Right, right. You can collaborate, but you don't. You're not out of control.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Ariana Grande talked about that. That she always sort of knew what she wanted and she's working with big, you know, kind of pop machines. But it always comes back to her. It comes down to her.

[Samantha Crane]

Did she sit in this very seat?

[Marc Maron]

She did, yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And I like, rub. I want some of her, like, good vibes to rub off on me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. She sits something. Yeah, but. But that, that confidence, like, collaboration is a beautiful thing and. And you can find things that you wouldn't have found on your own.

[Samantha Crane]

It's so necessary for growth, like, because you have to be able to, like, accept, like, receive. Not accept, but receive, like, what other. How other people do their work, or else you're never going to learn anything new about yourself.

[Marc Maron]

And also trust Their art.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So how did you make Gumshoe? Who is it?

[Samantha Crane]

Well, so Gumshoe. Even though it has ended up being about collaboration, when we got to making the record, when I was writing the songs, it really was about opening myself up to collaborating with people. And I'm talking about collaborating on an interpersonal level. Collaborating in relationships, collaborating in friendships, romantic relationships, family relationships. And I've. I had always been such a lone wolf, so, like, unsure of myself. So, like, I put up this really big, like, wall to protect myself from, like, what other people might have to say about what I was doing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And I kind of got to this point where I was like, I'm only understanding a very small percentage of what the human experience is if I don't let other people into this, like, life.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And I ended up in this. Ended up. That sounds. I was in this relationship for, like, three years with somebody who was an addict.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And I was struggling a lot with what the right thing to do there was, and trying to be vulnerable and let this person in, but also trying to, like, protect myself there. It was just, like, kind of an impossible situation.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, it's like the codependency thing.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. Codependent no more.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

That's a good one.

[Marc Maron]

What Pia Melody's book is that.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, the amount of, like, NA meetings that, you know, are like, that I've been to over the past three years.

[Marc Maron]

Did you go to Al Anon and stuff?

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, Al Anon. Yeah. A lot of this stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Codependency is a fucker.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I'm. I'm still. I still learned so much from that, just in terms of, like, taking a chance on letting people just accept me for me and letting me accept people for who they are. But at the same time, it was just like, I was also trying to apply that to my friendships and my family relationships.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah. Not let yourself be erased. You know, have boundaries and, you know, show up for stuff and not just be taken advantage of. All that stuff.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. But you don't even get to that point of learning how to do that unless you kind of let yourself get taken advantage of. Does that make sense?

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, but you.

[Samantha Crane]

You have to be vulnerable and, like, make those mistakes before you can get to that point.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But you don't choose to do that.

[Samantha Crane]

No.

[Marc Maron]

It just happens.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah, it just happens. Yeah. And then you're like this. I need to figure this out.

[Marc Maron]

Reel this in.

[Samantha Crane]

Yes, exactly.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. But I mean, once you learn how to have some of those Boundaries and let those vulnerabilities out in a way that you know you can handle it. What you do learn is like, you've taken a lot of shit and so you can kind of get a boundary, you know, it's hard. Yeah. So that's what Gumshoe sort of comes from.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. And it comes from that whole process of like realizing that you have to open yourself up and be. Be vulnerable. Maybe not doing that in the most like, smart or productive or safe way. And then doing that process of like finding your boundaries, finding trusting yourself, trusting your own voice in a situation and your. Your own like, feelings and then being able to utilize that in a. In a more confident way, I think.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And it ended up kind of informing how we recorded the record too, which was just like me letting in a couple of co producers with me and also recording the whole record like in a room together. And we're not like separate and doing stuff separately. We're just like trusting each other in that moment in that room and just sort of like. Yeah. Trusting that you can say, that's not really what I was thinking. Or like, what do you think about this? And just knowing that it's gonna end up how it needs to without putting this very angry walls of rules into a recording situation.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And you have time, you know, to kind of play it out.

[Samantha Crane]

That was the biggest thing for me is because I've always worked on such a tight budget that everything has to be planned. And like, you know, you've got a certain amount of days to do this. Certain amount of days to this. But with this one, we purposely went to this recording studio in. Because I could afford to just get it for 12 days.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

So we could have time and the luxury of letting ourselves sit into a environment in gel.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. That's great. I think the one that popped out at me was that the be attitudes one. Cause that seems like you kind of like, I'm ready to find a life.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I need to. Yeah. I want a piece of property.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm here, I'm a grown up and there's things I kind of want. I don't have to be ashamed of that.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. I mean, honestly, at the wrong time though, it's like, who wants to buy a piece of property right now?

[Marc Maron]

I don't know. Maybe. Are they cheaper or more expensive? I mean, sometimes when these horrible times.

[Samantha Crane]

Happen, it's still more expensive, but maybe it'll get cheaper.

[Marc Maron]

Do you want to stay in Oklahoma?

[Samantha Crane]

I don't really have a. I don't know that I have a preference. I know that Oklahoma will stay, like, a massive part of my life and my future, just because it is just part of me so much. I don't know that I really fit in anywhere else. Which is funny, because I don't even feel like I fit in in Oklahoma, but I feel the most myself there. Like, when I'm out here, I just feel like everyone's looking at me, like, who is that? Like, that person. But nobody's thinking that. I know that. But that's me. And my. I'm always viewing everything from.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

From up in the air.

[Marc Maron]

Projecting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like no one could ever. You know. Yeah. That's a weird thing, that project. Because you know what? No one's thinking about you that much.

[Samantha Crane]

I know. I know that. I used to. I had a drummer named Anne. I love her so much, but she was. She's. And she's so beautiful. And she would always spend so much time under her hair and makeup. And every time we would walk by, like, a storefront window, I'd catch her kind of, like, looking because she wanted to make sure that, like, she was always, like, presentable. And I remember saying once, I was like, nobody's looking at you.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

That was probably not right, though, because she was so beautiful, so maybe everyone was looking at her.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it's what you think they're thinking and what you think they're judging. You know, most of the time, when you think somebody's thinking about you, they're just, like, in their own world.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because we all are.

[Samantha Crane]

Yes, exactly.

[Marc Maron]

So. But the record's great, and I'm glad you brought me a vinyl.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And. But, like, before we wrap it up, like, how did you get involved with Fancy Dance?

[Samantha Crane]

So I. How did I get. Erica, the director, just reached out to me, and I'm assuming. So she was one of the writers on Reservation Dogs.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And the indigenous arts community is pretty, like, tight. Tight.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And I've done music for Sterling's, like, older movies, and I did some music for some various indigenous, like, podcasts and stuff through the years, and I'm assuming. Yeah. Erica just kind of, like, knew who I was through that, and we had a talk about doing this. I had never scored something that big. You know, I'd never done, like, a feature.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Samantha Crane]

And we just.

[Marc Maron]

Scoring's different than just writing songs.

[Samantha Crane]

Of course.

[Marc Maron]

You gotta engage with the.

[Samantha Crane]

You know, it is collaborative in its nature. You know, you're trying to, like, make somebody else's vision happen, more or less not your own. And I think she just wanted to have somebody that was. That knew what that world was. I mean, it's shot in Oklahoma, you know, it's dealing with indigenous people. And I think I'm very comfortable with what that environment is like physically on screen. I mean, it looks like where I live, so it's like I know what that environment sounds like and feels like. I know those people. People. And we just had like a conversation. I think she had mentioned wanting it to feel very, like organic, I think. I don't know if I had the idea or she did, but we were just saying, like it's. The majority of the movie is like two people and they're moving around a lot. And so I wanted to make it feel like the only instruments that were being used were things that you could literally just stuff in a backpack and take with you. So I really was utilizing like the human voice a lot and like a tiny keyboard. So it was stuff that I knew that I could just put in a backpack and take with me. I was trying to keep it very small the whole time I was doing that.

[Marc Maron]

That's smart.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You had a whole vision for it.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Good for you. Well, it's good talking to you.

[Samantha Crane]

Step one. Think, think.

[Marc Maron]

Exactly. I'm glad we did this.

[Samantha Crane]

Yeah. Thank you for. Nice to see you.

[Marc Maron]

There you go. Samantha's new album, Gumshoe is available now. Hang out for a minute, folks. One thing that's not going to surprise you if you're a regular listener. We love la. Why wouldn't we? It's been the home of the show for 16 years and I've lived here for longer than that. And when you come to visit Los Angeles, no matter how long you're here, you'll be able to take in a lot of stuff I love about this place. Like there's the food. There are seemingly endless options from all sorts of cuisines and dining styles. Yeah, you got B. Wally, vegan, AF out here in Eagle Rock. You got Crossroads for the high end, vegan food, a lot of stuff. Shopping here you go to Gimme Gimme Records if you want some records or Amoeba Records or permanent records. And of course, there's no substitute for LA when it comes to the best entertainment. Get over to Hollywood Boulevard and see a star ceremony on the Walk of Fame or come see me and dozens of other comedians at the Comedy Store, which has world class comedy every night. LA, it's like 10 cities in one. If you Come visit. I guarantee you'll love LA as much as I do. Find more ways to love [e-mail] People just ahead of Mother's Day, we posted a special bonus episode on the full Marin. It's a collection of some moms talking with me about mom stuff. Amy Poehler, Paula Poundstone, Ali Wong, Elizabeth Banks, Wanda Sykes, Brooke Shields, and my very own mommy, Toby Marin. All right, but. So you're. You're happy, then you're relaxed, and I'm finally doing okay? Yes. Well, I love you, mom. Is that it? I'm done. Well, what do you want to talk about? I don't know. I just want you to know that I do love you. Okay. And I'm super proud of you. And I really. I can honestly tell you, Mark, that when I hear your interviews, I'm in awe. I just can't imagine how you come about bringing all these people out like you do. I think it's totally amazing. All right. And then we know. What can I tell you? That's the truth. Well, that makes me happy to hear. I'm glad that, you know, I've impressed you and that you're proud of me, and I'm glad you found this niche that is so great for you. All right. I'm a little choked up now. Thank you, mom. I love you more. I love you, too. Bye. Bye. To get bonus episodes twice a week, sign up for the full Marin. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. Here's a classic guitar riff from the Marin Vault. Boomer lives monkey and La Fonda cat angels everywhere.