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- [00:02]
Marc Maron
So it's happening, people. The Bad Guys, and I'm one of them. Get ready for the Bad Guys 2 from DreamWorks Animation. I love being Mr. Snake. It's one of the more fun jobs I've had in show business. I like working with Craig Robinson, Sam Rockwell, Awkwafina, Anthony Ramos, Natasha Leone on this one, everybody. It's just. It's a blast. Especially when we can all get into the same room and kind of work it out together. Natasha plays my love interest in this one. I tell you, it is kind of an exciting thing to have parents who know me from me say that their kid loves Mr. Snake. I'm crossing generations with my Snake voice. Get tickets now for The Bad Guys 2, in theaters Friday. Lock the gate. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck? Nicks, what's happening? Where you at? How you feeling? I am going to talk to Ari Aster today. He's a film director. He's the writer and director of Hereditary Midsommar and Beau Is Afraid. His new movie, Eddington, is now in theaters. Shot in my home state of New Mexico, also Ari Aster's home state. Challenging movie, man, but kind of great. It's kind of great to see a movie that is provocative, challenging, and not seamless in a way. Not, you know, the narrative of it. The story of hinges on a story, but it's what happens on the peripheries of the story and the characters within the story and their sort of substories and psychological character defects and pluses that make it very interesting. It really is about. It's a very sort of isolated small town in New Mexico at the precipice of the world changing because of COVID and what that did to people's brains, what it did to politics, you know, where it brought people's brains. And it also deals with the sort of weird humanness at the core of it all. But somehow or another, he tends to mash all the forces that were upon us during that time. The Trump presidency, the Black Lives Matter protests, police action, masks, no masks, paranoia, radical politics that came out of it, government dubiousness. And just. He takes on everything on a very intimate level through people and through small town dynamics. And the sort of broader idea is that this small town at its, you know, a big story point is whether they should build this data cloud, I guess I don't know what you call them, cloud storage facility. You know, the thing that stores everything that makes us crazy. It was, I Highly recommend it. You will probably have to see it twice. That said, this Thursday, July 31st, I'll be at the 92nd Street Y in New York City in conversation with Jim Gaffigan. And after a screening of my HBO special, Marc Maron, panicked. Go to wtfpod.com tour for links to tickets. Panicked premieres the next day on HBO and streaming on HBO Max. And that's also the release date of the Bad Guys. Two also new cat mugs from Brian R. Jones go on sale today at noon Eastern. These are the handmade mugs I give to my guests. This is the second to last batch he's making, so you only get two more cracks of this. Go to WTF Mugs Co at noon Eastern today for the the famous Brian Jones mug. Been doing a lot of press for Bad Guys. Full junket. Went to Comic Con for the first time. They aired us in. They. They chartered a plane to take the entire cast in to do. I guess it's the big H H Room. I don't know. You know, I'm not a Comic Con. It was the big room. About 5,000 people in there, and me and the rest of the cast were all there doing the thing and doing the talk. Got some laughs, showed some trailers. This movie is pretty dynamic for an animated thing, and I'm not an animated guy, but it's a seat rumbler, man. It's gonna be good for the kids, and I think even the grownups will like it. And I'm not supposed to say that, but I believe it's true. It's a pretty exciting thing. So, look, I do want you to know I'm reeling it in, people. I'm reeling it in. All right, look, I know I've been a lot the last couple of weeks, maybe for the last 16 years, you know, it was a lot for me, too. I've had enough of myself as well, believe me. I'm exhausting. Mostly to me. So I empathize with you. If you've had enough of my anxiety trajectory in the last couple weeks, I get it. It just happens sometimes. What can I tell you? I mean, it's just the way my. My brain is. Everything's coming in hot, and I couldn't stop any of it from making impact and detonating fires, so be it. That is the way my brain works. Eventually, like today, maybe yesterday, maybe happened the day before, possibly even last Wednesday. Eventually, I reel it in, all right? I compartmentalize. I assess what is really happening against what is disastrously speculative. And I just try to shut down the shit generator, the psychic generator. All right? And I'm having some success as of this speaking. I'm having some success for today. All right. I think it's just my, my mind. It's just the way my mind prepares for change, prepares for challenges. And once the fires settle down, I can sort of parse what needs to be done, break that shit down into steps to be taken and get a handle on it with the help of a few good friends who understand the dryness of the forest of my mind. And at any time there might be a problem and we might need to contain the fires. Gotta have a couple guys for that. Maybe a therapist. I have two guys, a therapist and a girlfriend that is, I think, getting more exhausted as each day goes by, as they all do. Understandably. But look, I mean, I imagine that most people have some version of this process. It's just that I yammer about it and I have a lot of different things going on and not more than other people. I'm not saying that my problems are more than others. Some people have bigger and more difficult lives than me, certainly, but it's just the way my brain works. I've always wanted to be a smoother character, folks, you know, maybe a cowboy of some kind, you know? Yeah, well, maybe I am, actually. Maybe I'm like half bull rider and half rodeo clown and that means I'm just riding or distracting bulls of my own making this sort of psychological bulls in the mental rodeo ring of my fucking brain. But look, I think I feel better for a couple reasons. Yeah, I'm making some decisions about Charlie. You know, I do have to be away a bit and I'm just going to, I was going to board him. I know there was talk of giving him away, but I'll hang on. I love the guy and it's just too much. Yesterday I came home, there was, you know, tufts of hair everywhere, piss, blood. He's just, he cannot get past his Buster Obsession. His beat the shit out of Buster Obsession. So I was, I was going to board him, but I said, dude, just board him in your house. I, I, I texted Jackson Galaxy and I, I think it's going to be okay for a few days and then I'll, I'll deal with it more hands on when I get home and decide whether or not I need to put him on Prozac or how to, to, to fucking, you know, deal with the problem more efficiently, but to keep him separated, to keep him occupied. He's got plenty of room in my room. And I just want to be away and have peace of mind and not spend the day waiting to hear whether or not my cats are killing each other. That's just. That's. That's part of my life. And I also think I feel better because I think I had a major breakthrough last week. All right, look, you guys know this. I've been playing guitar for a long time, mostly alone. All right? Over the last few years, as some of you know, I've started to play with other musicians on stage because it was something I wanted to do, like, my whole life, but I never pursued it like that. But I wanted to do it confidently. I think I'm an okay guitar player, but the confidence just never. It never came. You know, when I play with other people, I would feel okay about the gigs and the playing and the singing, but just not great and not really relaxed. I would be very hard on myself after the show and during the show. Look, I mean, I know. I believe that I have a lane that I can be in as a singer and player. And again, I'm not trying to be a professional musician, okay? And I don't expect to be, like, as good as professional musician, although I do play with professional musicians. But I'm very hard on myself primarily because I want to feel like I do it well for me. And these are things, like, as you get older, to try new things and to take the next step with things that you've been doing all your life or try to take a hobby or even a whole new thing. Just try it, you know? I'm not talking about jumping off mountains or hang gliding. Maybe that's something that you can, you know, get better at, but I'm talking about creative endeavors. It's. It's. It's scary. It's scary. And as a player and a singer, I just. I fucking choke on stage all the time. I lose my place. I lose the words. I screw up the chords, my throat tightens up, and I don't sing well. It's fucking annoying. And I just want to be good at something immediately. Who doesn't want to just be good at something immediately? I mean, I play all the time. Why can't I just be good at something with other people and. And in front of people? Why can't I just do it immediately? I mean, after every gig that. That are supposed to be fun, you know, I generally feel like I don't really need to do it again. Like I'm. I'm lying to myself. What's the point of it? I can't really play well enough. I'm not a good enough singer. I fucking choke. It's fucking annoying. But, but I did, I did. Have. I made some progress. But I'll. I'll tell you. I'll. I'll tell you about it in a minute. Today's episode is sponsored by Squarespace. And by now you know the deal. Squarespace is the best way to showcase your stuff online. Your art, your podcast, your crafts, you by helping you make a customizable website. Build your whole website in just a few steps using Squarespace's design system Blueprint AI. Then choose whatever features you want to get the most out of your site, just like we do with wtfpod.com and if you sell things from your site, Squarespace helps you get paid on time with invoices and online payments, plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. WTFPod.com is powered by Squarespace and we can't imagine running the site with anything else. It's just plain easy with Squarespace. And check out squarespace.com WTF for a free trial. And then use offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com WTF offer code WTF. All right, so look, my friend Paige Stark, who I've played with and sung with in the past, we did a song together for that Love LA compilation. And she kept bugging me. She kept saying, I got these guys that I play with that you know, will get you. They get you. I know that, you know, I get where you're coming from, you know, as a musician. And maybe we should put these guys together. And I, and I play with guys who are good, you know, Ned and Brandon, Jason, sometimes Jimmy Vivino. And we have a good time, but I always felt like, okay, so we kind of crammed together a couple of rehearsals, pick a bunch of songs, just do our versions of it. I think the most time we spent on a song was probably Warfrap by the Grateful Dead. But, you know, it's like I want to feel like I'm really doing the work. It's like me in acting, these are new things for me, really, in the big picture of my life. And I want to feel like I'm doing the work so I can get better, you know, and be more consistent with it. So I relented and I told the other guys that I'm going to play with. This other group of musicians was Luke Paquin, Dan Horne, Jerry Borges, and We rehearsed, like we really rehearsed, you know, before I was just kind of jamming out loose versions of covers that I just wanted to do my way, you know, just sloppy and easier. And we would rehearse, like I said, a couple of times a few days before the gig. Basically it was good enough for rock and roll. I just never felt like I was really like doing the work to become better. Like, you know, really kind of doing the rehearsing and the practicing. You know, I always had the lyrics on paper in front of me and I knew the guys would carry me and I had fun kinda, but I wanted to really rehearse and learn the process of making choices about songs and working them and getting the hours in to nail something that sounded like well rehearsed. I mean, that's. That's how you get good. And I. And I know I have to suck to get good, but I'm kind of tired of sucking, you know, in my mind I've been. People appreciate the effort and I'm very self effacing when I do these music shows on stage. And you know, I'm kind of taking the piss out of it because, you know, I'll fuck up and stuff and then have a monologue around that and I'll fuck up the lyrics and I'll have the lyrics in front of whatever. So I started practicing with these, with this new group of musicians and we did it. And I think I broke through to some other, like to some other place, some higher place for me as a musician and singer. Like, I learned all the words to all the songs we covered. That's a first. I learned and rehearsed the structures of the songs, honoring originals a bit more than I usually do. And it just, it just all paid off. I mean, I didn't choke, I didn't have the lyrics in front of me. I didn't make myself crazy. And I. And I had fun and I did pretty well, I think all around. The band was great, but the real fucking doozy of the night, I don't know, you know, I'm not a normal person and sometimes I look back at the choices I make and I'm like, why would you even try to do that? What would you do? Why would you do that? I decided to cover the Taylor Swift song that had a profound impact on me in terms of sitting with grief. I do a whole big bit on it in my special which I told you premieres this Friday, August 1st on HBO. The song is bigger than the whole sky. And I. And I wanted to cover it, and we decided the arrangement would be kind of like Mazzy Star ish. And it just, it just broke me. My. But my throat was open. Like I, I was singing from my guts. And it was kind of amazing. Like, I made it through the last verse, you know, almost. And then I, I, I choked up. I didn't choke. I choked up. It was pretty raw. And on the last chorus, it was pretty raw. It was very emotional. But it landed and I felt pretty good about it. And there's actually a reel of it on Largo at the Coronet's IG page, if you want to watch me kind of do something. That is the most terrifying thing in the world to me. And I actually think that that breakthrough, just the creative one, might have helped, you know, lighten the load of all the other anxiety I was feeling. And I think that may be the cross to bear of the creative person, is that you need it to live. You know what I'm saying? So Ari Aster is here. And I watched all his movies, and all of them are unique, all of them are challenging. All of them are kind of provocative. And he's a real auteur, a real artist, a guy with a vision that will, you know, he'll manifest his vision as he sees it, and that's a rare gift. And he's got the gravitas to do it after his first couple movies. And he's doing it. And this new movie, Eddington, is now playing in theaters. And it's not a horror movie. He's done a couple of horror movies. He's done sort of a three hour lyrical ode to panic. That's pretty challenging in and of itself. But challenging movies are where it's at. That's the problem with this movement towards a Christian nation, is that, you know, the type of Christians that want to take over this country are myopic and fucking boring. And anything that's different to them, that doesn't fit into their purview deserves punishment or just complete disappearance. And it's movies like these, and also things like the new south park episode or things like people speaking out through art or through their platforms that is much needed in the big picture. It may not stop the authoritarianism we're living in, but it does keep the human voice alive and human creativity alive. It was a pleasure talking to Ari, and now you can listen to it as well. You nervous?
- [17:59]
Ari Aster
No, I'm always nervous to be recorded.
- [18:02]
Marc Maron
Are you?
- [18:03]
Ari Aster
Yeah. What am I going to say that's going to haunt me? Forever, you know.
- [18:06]
Marc Maron
Oh, really? So you've got that paranoia? I mean, I, you know, I do, too. And now that I'm finishing the podcast, you know, I'm out in the wild. I have a producer generally that protects me from myself because he edits.
- [18:20]
Ari Aster
Okay.
- [18:21]
Marc Maron
So he'll say, like, yeah, maybe he shouldn't say that. But now I'm just out in the wild talking shit and makes me nervous.
- [18:28]
Ari Aster
How long have you been unprotected?
- [18:30]
Marc Maron
Well, no, I mean, the podcast, we're wrapping up in a couple months, but I've been doing a lot of promotion for my HBO special, and I'm doing podcasts, and I'm talking about the state of comedy. I'm talking about politics and. But the truth of matter is, is that only a few people really at a certain level, are going to give a shit, and it'll probably disappear in three days. Whatever you.
- [18:50]
Ari Aster
That. That is true. Especially with the nature of just. I mean, it's just everything.
- [18:54]
Marc Maron
It just goes away eventually, unless it really sticks.
- [18:57]
Ari Aster
But people also love to go digging.
- [18:59]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Right.
- [19:00]
Ari Aster
You know, so whenever, you know, like, whenever there's something new by somebody. Yeah, it's. It's always. It's a nice pastime to dig through their archives and see what. What pisses you off.
- [19:11]
Marc Maron
Well, right, but, I mean, but you just made a movie that was, you know, designed to piss people off in. In a very specific way on some level. Maybe not designed to piss people off, but at least to be provocative on. On all fronts.
- [19:22]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
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Marc Maron
So you're. You're fortunate in that it succeeds in that. So, you know, everybody can kind of pick and choose what they like or what they're pissed about.
- [19:30]
Ari Aster
That's right.
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Marc Maron
You know, to see it as a whole, I think, is a daunting but exciting task.
- [19:36]
Ari Aster
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I grew up really loving just art. Art that was provocative, but I didn't have the Internet, and so it's a very different world.
- [19:52]
Marc Maron
Well, yeah, because things can be taken apart and recontextualized immediately.
- [19:58]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
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Marc Maron
And so.
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Ari Aster
And now it's all about just, like, casting your own, like, finding your stance.
- [20:05]
Marc Maron
That's right.
- [20:06]
Ari Aster
I feel like there's, like, you know, how would I say this? The responsibility of, like, the audience or the viewer or the reader is different now than it used to be. I think it should be. I think. And I feel this way when I walk into a theater. It's like I want to submit to whatever the thing is. But now it's so much about, you know, you sit there and you have to find your take and then you have to cast it because you're also. Everybody's just, you know.
- [20:40]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I think that's true. But it's self serving because, I mean, the finding the take thing, and then you've got these sort of amateur or relatively popular critics or political pundits who are gonna use your work, you know, fragmented, in order to make their point and generate attention for themselves. So the whole idea of functional art criticism or film criticism doesn't exist that much anymore.
- [21:08]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
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Marc Maron
And I know you grew up in, in New Mexico, right?
- [21:12]
Ari Aster
Yeah, I, I was born in. I was, I was born in New Jersey, in Princeton, New Jersey. But I spent like a week there. And then.
- [21:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [21:18]
Ari Aster
And then I, I. And then I, I was a baby in New York. And then my parents moved to England for a few years to Chester, which is near Wales.
- [21:30]
Marc Maron
Why?
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Ari Aster
My dad wanted to start a jazz club.
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Marc Maron
Did he do it?
- [21:34]
Ari Aster
It didn't happen. No. But then we all moved when. I think I was, I think I was seven. Yeah, I must have been seven. And then we all moved to New Mexico, to Santa Fe. And then he started a jazz festival that, that lasted for a few years.
- [21:50]
Marc Maron
I was just there. I just bought this ring.
- [21:53]
Ari Aster
Oh, yeah.
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Marc Maron
I grew up in Albuquerque and I too, was born in New Jersey.
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Ari Aster
I know that. I know that. Is that turquoise?
- [22:02]
Marc Maron
Of course.
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Ari Aster
Oh, man. You fell for it. I can't believe it.
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Marc Maron
It's a big one. Well, this one I've had for years. This is a Zuni ring. As I got older, for some reason, because I grew up there, you know, I felt that I wanted to have something attached to it. It's not really. I mean, I dig this shit. And the truth of the matter is, as far as jewelry goes, turquoise, silver, kind of a native jewelry, is relatively inexpensive to get. Kind of a big chunky piece. I'm not sure if this is too big or not, but I'm going to try to rock it.
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Ari Aster
Oh, yeah. It's funny, turquoise is like. I had to really restrain myself from using it in Eddington. It felt like just too.
- [22:38]
Marc Maron
It's kind of back.
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Ari Aster
Oh, no. Of course, it never left. I don't think you didn't want to.
- [22:43]
Marc Maron
Put one squash blossom on somebody's chest. You know, just the dangling U of turquoise.
- [22:48]
Ari Aster
I'm realizing I probably should have relented because it is just important. Like, how do you do it without.
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Marc Maron
It's the only place it really exists. Sometimes it moves to Texas and then occasionally it shows up out here when there's a Southwestern trend going on, but it is definitely part of New Mexico.
- [23:04]
Ari Aster
Huge part of New Mexico, especially Santa Fe.
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Marc Maron
Oh, yeah, I got it right on the plaza, too. And it's got a kind of an exciting backstory. This ring, the artist, you know, who is Zuni, has passed away. And the stone is from a mine that's been closed. So this is.
- [23:19]
Ari Aster
Oh, wow.
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Marc Maron
Yeah, it's got a whole back.
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Ari Aster
That's beautiful.
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Marc Maron
Well, thank you.
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Ari Aster
And I know you're from Albuquerque. That's where my family lives now, so I. What part of town? When I was an adolescent, I grew up in Santa Fe, but in Corrales.
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Marc Maron
Oh, of course they do.
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Ari Aster
Yeah.
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Marc Maron
Like, have they been there a long time?
- [23:36]
Ari Aster
They've been there since, you know, the year before I went to college, which was the College of Santa Fe, they moved to Corrales. So they've been there for 20 years now.
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Marc Maron
I grew up down the street. I grew up off of Rio Grande. Right. Northwest Valley.
- [23:53]
Ari Aster
Wow. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I know.
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Marc Maron
Do you remember, I don't know how long ago were the buffaloes there? When you were growing up on Rio Grande, there was a guy that owned a herd of buffaloes right past Los Poblanos, where the big curve is on Rio Grande. If you're coming west. There used to be an actual herd of buffalo there that a guy owned. They're gone now. Wasn't there when you missed that? Huh?
- [24:16]
Ari Aster
They must be. Yeah. They still got the balloons.
- [24:18]
Marc Maron
Sure. The balloons are there. Yeah. Do you feel a connection in New Mexico?
- [24:22]
Ari Aster
You know, when I was there as a kid, I resented the place and I did not like it. And I think that has to do with having, you know, had, like, New York in my system. So I didn't like it. But now when I go to visit family, when I go home, I really appreciate it in a new way. And shooting the film, I mean, the entire process of making the film, it brought me back to it and I really enjoyed it, you know.
- [24:56]
Marc Maron
Well, it's beautiful. And I think you did a good job capturing New Mexico, but so thank you. Your folks were both in the art?
- [25:03]
Ari Aster
Yeah. My mom is a visual artist who is a poet. She moved from printmaking to and painting.
- [25:16]
Marc Maron
And printing at home or doing like, high end printing, like going down to Albuquerque to do prints at Tamarind or something.
- [25:23]
Ari Aster
Well, it was in New York that she was printing.
- [25:26]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
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Ari Aster
And then she became a poet.
- [25:29]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
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Ari Aster
And she's been a poet for a long time.
- [25:33]
Marc Maron
How's she doing with that?
- [25:35]
Ari Aster
Good. She has had a book published, and she's published several books, and I think she's a great poet.
- [25:42]
Marc Maron
You do?
- [25:42]
Ari Aster
Yeah, yeah, she's great. She's really. I would say her work can be, like, punishing.
- [25:50]
Marc Maron
Oh, really?
- [25:52]
Ari Aster
In a good way. I mean, you know, I'm her son and punishing.
- [25:57]
Marc Maron
I'm a guy who, you know. You know, in my past, if anyone went digging, has written some poetry, and, you know, I was. You know, I thought myself a poet in college. And, you know, what. What is punishing?
- [26:10]
Ari Aster
Well, let me amend that, because I didn't have the time to really find the words. I think her stuff is very. Is very honest and, like, unvarnished and painful. And I find it funny, too.
- [26:27]
Marc Maron
Like, very funny in terms of personal vulnerability and the honesty and the pain. Like, you know, when you read her poems, you can see parts of her that you're like, wow, that's happening inside my mom.
- [26:38]
Ari Aster
Yes.
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Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [26:39]
Ari Aster
Yeah. And I just recognize my mom in the writing. Yeah. And I. Yeah, I think she's. I think her work is great.
- [26:48]
Marc Maron
And your dad's a jazz guy?
- [26:50]
Ari Aster
My dad is a jazz drummer, yeah.
- [26:53]
Marc Maron
Great.
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Ari Aster
And when he was younger, he was on the road with.
- [27:00]
Marc Maron
Really.
- [27:01]
Ari Aster
For a period. He was with the OJs, playing the drums.
- [27:04]
Marc Maron
So he was a touring musician.
- [27:07]
Ari Aster
He was, yeah.
- [27:08]
Marc Maron
So you had that element in your house, the lounge act element.
- [27:12]
Ari Aster
Yeah, that's right. That's right. I think he tried to. To make me a musician, and I probably. I guess I rebelled.
- [27:20]
Marc Maron
But I think what's amazing. Cause, you know, in watching the movies, which I crammed a lot of them in, you know, and I've seen all the feature films of yours. Cause I don't like. First of all, I'm not generally a horror guy.
- [27:32]
Ari Aster
Me neither.
- [27:33]
Marc Maron
No, I know. I'm starting to understand that. But I got it all in there. And it strikes me that your sense of. Of freedom in terms of doing the movie you want to do, you had to come from some confidence in what art is. And it seems that you grew up with that in a house full of artists. Certainly a drummer who was maybe not a free jazz drummer, but the power of improvisation and honoring your own vision was kind of ingrained, I would assume.
- [28:09]
Ari Aster
Yeah. Yeah. I have to give my parents, and especially my mother credit that, you know, when I was a baby, she would give me crayons and put me on butcher paper and.
- [28:22]
Marc Maron
But I assume you were educated in. My mom was kind of a painter at one point, and there was a lot of going to the Museum of Modern art and seeing the stuff and having your mind blown by art that was so ingrained in the family fabric, or at least my mom's desire to paint it, gave me a sort of wonder and awe of art.
- [28:46]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
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Marc Maron
Did you have that?
- [28:49]
Ari Aster
Yeah, I definitely had that. And, you know, my mother is a tough critic, and she gave me that, too. I would, as a kid, take her to a movie that I thought was good, and she would, you know, she didn't think it was good. She'd be like, you thought that was good?
- [29:09]
Marc Maron
Really?
- [29:10]
Ari Aster
That was bullshit.
- [29:11]
Marc Maron
And do you. Do you find that she's right or do you argue?
- [29:14]
Ari Aster
Oh, yeah, No, I think. I think that was really hugely useful because it just. It, from a very young age, made me. I think maybe at a certain point, I was probably too censorious for my own good. Like, just like. Not really. You know, just like that thing I was talking about, right. Where it's like, are you submitting to the work and are you really giving yourself to it and giving it a chance to come into you? There was probably a period at which I wasn't allowing the work in, but I would say a lot of my taste was adopted from hers and from.
- [29:58]
Marc Maron
Being critical and understanding the depth of any sort of, you know, final piece, you know, because you can be jacked around by art and you can be stunned whether it's a film or a poem or, you know, a mo. Or a painting. Right. So. But. So a lot of times when you're younger, you're like, that's amazing. And they're like, no, this is garbage.
- [30:19]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [30:20]
Marc Maron
And then you have to be like, why? And then all of a sudden, the. The. The depth of your kind of aesthetic understanding grows.
- [30:27]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [30:28]
Marc Maron
And you realize, like, okay, all right. This is the context of how I have to see art.
- [30:33]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [30:34]
Marc Maron
And you were given that by your mother.
- [30:36]
Ari Aster
Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, we. But I have a lot of memories of seeing certain films with her in theaters that were, like, you know, formative.
- [30:46]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [30:47]
Ari Aster
Like, what I would say, the big ones, the big memories I have where, like, we were both kind of blown away and it was really nice to, like, kind of share that experience. Would be Songs from the Second Floor by Roy Anderson. That was huge. The piano teacher.
- [31:05]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [31:06]
Ari Aster
I think I was 15 when I went to see that, and that was huge. Mulholland Drive. Her favorite movie is Defending youg Life. And that has, you know, that's, for me, just a perfect movie, really.
- [31:25]
Marc Maron
The Albert Brooks movie.
- [31:26]
Ari Aster
Yeah. Yeah. I love Albert Brooks comedically.
- [31:28]
Marc Maron
Oh, me too. Comedically there are beats in that movie that if I think about them right now, I'll laugh. There are because Brooks, like, you know, he'll put together, like, each scene is going to be a comedic scene. And sometimes they string together well, and sometimes it doesn't matter, you know. But there are beats in that movie that are just spectacular.
- [31:49]
Ari Aster
There's Shirley MacLaine in the past Lives Pavilion, where she goes, Hi, I'm Shirley MacLaine. And you hear the woman in the back going, oh, my God, she's, like, so scandalized. That's so funny. Just. Yeah, he's. I mean, yeah, he's like a master of, like, the prolonged, like, extended scene. Like a scene that goes for, like, 10, 15 minutes but doesn't die.
- [32:15]
Marc Maron
Well, that's true. And all of it's sort of founded in his ability to stretch out a comedic beat. Yeah, the sort of. It's not even attention he creates, but there's a kind of, like, you know, going back and forth with him that, you know, he can just keep going and really deliver all the way through. But that beat in Defending youg Life where, you know, he's, like. Where they're showing him his shortcomings.
- [32:38]
Ari Aster
Oh, yeah.
- [32:39]
Marc Maron
And the scene where he's going to, you know, ask for the raise. You know what? I'll give you 20,000. I'll take it.
- [32:44]
Ari Aster
Yeah, I'll take it right away. The first thing. And even the guy is disappointed. Even the guy who's, like, getting ready to negotiate.
- [32:53]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's so funny. That's so funny. He was such a big influence, but not just comedically, but filmically.
- [32:59]
Ari Aster
Oh, I think he's just. I think he's one of the great directors. Yeah. I love those scenes.
- [33:04]
Marc Maron
Oh, my God. Have you told him?
- [33:06]
Ari Aster
Yeah. Oh, no, no, I. I have told him, and I wrote a bunch of stuff for. I wrote two big pieces for Criterion about his work, and so he read those and then reached out to me.
- [33:20]
Marc Maron
Oh, that's sweet.
- [33:20]
Ari Aster
He liked those pieces, and that meant a lot to me.
- [33:22]
Marc Maron
Yeah, I'm sure it means a lot to him that you did that.
- [33:27]
Ari Aster
Oh, my God.
- [33:27]
Marc Maron
Because I think he does feel a bit underappreciated.
- [33:30]
Ari Aster
Does he still? Because I feel like the reassessment has. I mean, I hope he feels appreciated. I know so many filmmakers that just worship at the altar.
- [33:43]
Marc Maron
That's great, because it's surprising. I wouldn't have assumed that. Well, I mean, if you watch that doc on him with Rob Reiner at every turn, the movies do not do as well. So that's.
- [33:55]
Ari Aster
Well, Rob Reiner. I mean, this is Spinal Tap, right? Which comes, I don't know, five years after or more at the real life. And real life was the first of those, the best.
- [34:07]
Marc Maron
That beat in, where you clearly see Grodin ask for this extra shot and he goes, can we not put that in the movie? He kills the horse and Brooks is like, no, I think it's gonna be.
- [34:20]
Ari Aster
Right where he's a veterinarian and it's too much anesthesia, I think.
- [34:24]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He asked for it twice or something.
- [34:26]
Ari Aster
It's so good.
- [34:27]
Marc Maron
But, so, but what seems to be happening in terms of independent filmmakers in a real sense or people with a vision that for some reason right now horror seems like a decent kind of genre to really figure out whatever you want in terms of how you want to make a movie, that the horror thing is just sort of a framework, but you can go a lot deeper with a lot more freedom as opposed to just do a movie that's not a genre film.
- [35:00]
Ari Aster
Yeah, yeah. I think if your sensibility is on the darker side, it's a very good genre to be working in. I might have even taken it a little bit for granted because these last two films that I've made have left the genre and have not reached the same audience.
- [35:24]
Marc Maron
Well, I mean, the way they build Hereditary, this is gonna be the scariest movie ever. So. And a lot of horror people, you know, really took to it. So, I mean, that's a built in audience of very specific people.
- [35:34]
Ari Aster
Yeah. And I say that I'm not like a horror guy, but that's not necessarily true. I love horror films. I just, it's not, you know, I feel like there are certain people who like, you know, almost exclusively watch horror movies. Like that's all they're interested in. And that's not me. I love a. I love a good horror movie. I think, you know, if when those films are like working they're thrilling and they can feel dangerous in a really exciting way. But I would say I just find that it's because it's a genre that kind of traditionally does do well, or it can. I find that it attracts a lot of like cynical people. And a lot of those films just feel cynical to me and just feel kind of like I get bored easily.
- [36:26]
Marc Maron
Well, that's the interesting thing about Hereditary is that you have this story, you know, the story of a cult, you know, that you don't know as a cult until later in the movie. But that ultimately is not what the movie's essentially about. Right. So you use this template to kind of explore whatever you want in a good horror movie, you know, may do that, you know, not necessarily on purpose. They're provocative in a certain way. But it seems like with all the movies, there's a layering of the frailty of humans, but also, you know, family issues, you know, tragedy issues. So the backstories of the characters are much more in depth than just, you know, putting horror out there to sort of time fear.
- [37:08]
Ari Aster
Yeah, I hope so. I tend to believe that the more invested you are in. In the story or the people, you know, especially when you're making a horror film, which is, you know, kind of essentially, you know, I think at its best, like, kind of based on betrayal and kind of like you're. It's like, what's gonna happen to these people?
- [37:30]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [37:30]
Ari Aster
And if the people are just ciphers, like, who gives a shit? But if you are invested, then suddenly it can become a really complicated, like, upsetting experience. And I. And so that's. That I'm interested in that.
- [37:46]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [37:47]
Ari Aster
But I. But then I realized when I leave the genre, it's like I'm still. I'm still kind of doing that when I'm not there.
- [37:54]
Marc Maron
It really, like the through line all the way to this film, like, even at the core of Eddington, in the middle or at the heart of all this, you know, political conflict and. And sort of social conflict, is trauma on some level. I mean, do you read that?
- [38:16]
Ari Aster
Yeah, I do. And I think in some ways it's like quicksand that people get stuck in as opposed to. I think especially at this moment where the present is so unpleasant and it's so difficult to even think about the future.
- [38:35]
Marc Maron
And also there's so many forces at hand that are destroying people's minds. The mind is very vulnerable.
- [38:41]
Ari Aster
Exactly. I think it's very plastic. And I would say at this moment, it feels like people are really retreating into either nostalgia or trauma. Right. But it's always. But it's the past. And also to make sense of the president. Yeah, no, of course I said president to make sense of the present.
- [39:01]
Marc Maron
But the past is mythic. But like in Hereditary, you're dealing with this psychological trauma that is not the turn, doesn't happen till almost, what, halfway through the movie. And so you're just dealing with this family that is strained beyond understanding because of the mother's experience with her own mother and her mother's passing. And also I was talking to my producer yesterday. You know, the decision to make her art some sort of strange kind of attempt at control by creating these miniature lives and houses and everything was sort of interesting. I mean, and when you make a decision like that, too, like, all right, this character is an artist and this is the art she does. Do you have intention there, or you just thought it was cool?
- [39:51]
Ari Aster
Oh, no, of course. I mean, yeah, there's intention there. There's a character in Eddington played by Emma Stone, who's doing kind of the same thing. Who's.
- [40:02]
Marc Maron
With the little dolls.
- [40:03]
Ari Aster
With the little dolls who, you know, can't. There's something that she doesn't even really have access to because it's so painful. So it's coming out in these distorted ways. And so, you know, I find those dolls are the most access we have to her inner life.
- [40:24]
Marc Maron
And then the rest is suggestion.
- [40:27]
Ari Aster
Yeah, the rest is suggestion. And I think my hope is that there's enough there that you can kind of put it together. But you're with her husband, who doesn't really understand her and who's kind of afraid to understand her. I think he senses the depth of maybe what has happened to her.
- [40:46]
Marc Maron
Yes.
- [40:46]
Ari Aster
But he doesn't want to face it. And so. And so, because he's our surrogate, you know, she's kept at a remove. And so I wanted her to be kind of ghostly, but I wanted there to be enough that was, you know, evident to us that, you know, even just on a strictly emotional level, that we have a strong sense of her. And I think that's a really hard thing for an actor to work with.
- [41:11]
Marc Maron
To play the damage and not let on.
- [41:13]
Ari Aster
Yeah. And not do something that's obvious and not, like, telegraph anything. And I. I just think what she does in the film is really special and very subtle.
- [41:26]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah, no, it's great. It just seems to me, first of all, in Hereditary, the way you. There were definitely horror tropes that were identifiable. It always seems that when a cult, the cult members always look like your neighbors or the guy who works at the hardware store. I like that element because I said that to my girlfriend, who's a horror freak. I'm like, they always, like, lynch does that too. They're. It's not that they're normal people, but they're almost like an amplified normal. Like, you know, just these regular kind of school teacher looking. In a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like. It seems like you have to do that. They have to be that way.
- [42:05]
Ari Aster
Yeah, well, you know, I think the more that you bring the Mundane into it, the more disturbing it gets.
- [42:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Because the mundane becomes horrifying. But I. But I like the way you played all the. With the corpses and everything else, you know? But I just want to like the way I read that final scene, you know, because it was brutal that you decapitate the daughter before you know what's going on. But I enjoyed that.
- [42:29]
Ari Aster
Me, too. Me, too.
- [42:30]
Marc Maron
And then when you had the mother kind of using that in her artwork, you know, that was a moment of honesty, you know, for her to try to grapple with her life. But it seems to me that the torment of the teenage kid and the relationship with his mother and her sort of overbearingness and then, you know, borderline abuse, that I really felt that the final shot of the movie, that there was something I read into that moment where he becomes possessed by the demon, where he has this look in a very kind of sweet way, like, this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. Like this. Like, there was confusion. There was a little bit of, like, you know, this is fucked up. But there was also like, wow, this is quite. This is a high point in my teenage life.
- [43:15]
Ari Aster
Oh, I like that. I like that. I feel like he's almost, like, been lobotomized. Yeah, he's. No, but I just felt, like, wiped out. Right.
- [43:23]
Marc Maron
But the arc of the character and the struggles that he's had, like, you're like, is it gonna work out for this teenage kid who's had a hard time with girls and he's trying to have friends, and he's like the weed guy, and then all this shit starts happening. But there was just this moment where it's like, oh, man, this is fucking cool.
- [43:39]
Ari Aster
Yeah. It was a bumpy road for him.
- [43:41]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [43:42]
Ari Aster
But, you know, at least he gets.
- [43:43]
Marc Maron
To be a demon.
- [43:44]
Ari Aster
Yeah. He's king now.
- [43:45]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Did you feel that?
- [43:48]
Ari Aster
Well, I definitely like the idea of having an ending that almost feels triumphant, where the catharsis is. There's an emotional catharsis where it feels like something has come to fruition, and where the horror of what that thing is is sort of underneath the tone, which is telling you something else.
- [44:17]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [44:19]
Ari Aster
I do like a complicated tonal ending. Yeah.
- [44:23]
Marc Maron
Well, it's the same with Midsommar, because, like, you know, after all you go through with that film, you kind of feel good for her.
- [44:31]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [44:32]
Marc Maron
Like, she's arrived, you know, she's where she needs to be.
- [44:35]
Ari Aster
That's right.
- [44:36]
Marc Maron
And it's going to be okay. She's the May Queen.
- [44:38]
Ari Aster
That's Right. She's another person who's been utterly wiped out. But, you know, but it is a triumph.
- [44:45]
Marc Maron
And that was a clear path, you know, because you went into the horror of her. Tragedy, you know, was graphic in the film, you know, to lose your family like that.
- [44:56]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [44:57]
Marc Maron
And then the sort of being shattered by grief and detachment like that, and almost disassociating, you know, she. You know, that is a prime candidate for any sort of, you know, comforting support or to feel included. But I like that in that movie, you know, outside of the cult thing, that you did have that sort of horror trope of like, these kids are gonna die.
- [45:26]
Ari Aster
Yeah. And that is just something that we take for granted. And that's something that I wanted the movie to take for granted where, okay, this is a horror movie about, like, American kids in another, you know, who are going to an exotic country. We know how this works. They're all gonna die. They have to die. Okay, fine. So I'm gonna do that, but I'm gonna barely pay attention to that, because we know that that's happening. So it was about somehow making that be done. Like, doing that so casually that that starts to get under your skin where.
- [46:03]
Marc Maron
It'S like, well, how's it gonna go?
- [46:04]
Ari Aster
Yeah. And then it's all about the body is like, who cares? This is gonna happen.
- [46:10]
Marc Maron
And also, like. But you play those characters, you know, when confronted, because you played the horror. So I don't want to say realistically, but in a kind of almost beautiful and poetic way, that the humanity of these characters, when they're faced with that first turn, not unlike the decapitation in Hereditary where that older couple jumps off the cliff because it's part of the. The ritual of this community. And that woman's face just blows apart. That the reactions of all these, they're sort of like, oh, one of them. Well, I guess this is what they do, and we have to respect that. And then there's the other sort of like, are you out of your fucking mind? Those are human responses that we're not kind of hack in any way. You know, I feel like you really let them play those for real.
- [47:04]
Ari Aster
Oh, good. Well, that's. Yeah, I feel like that's important. I feel like, you know, that's sort of the fun of. Well, is it the fun. It's the fun of genre filmmaking. But I find that the more I believe the behavior of people, the more immersed I am in the, you know, in the experience of the film. Like, you know, the minute that somebody is taking something in A way that I don't buy.
- [47:29]
Marc Maron
Yeah, it's annoying.
- [47:29]
Ari Aster
It's like. Well, it's just like, okay, so this is bullshit. I don't care.
- [47:32]
Marc Maron
Yeah, ye. And the funny kid was really funny in that. The. The.
- [47:36]
Ari Aster
The Will Poulter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Will. And Will's a great. A really great guy. I love Will.
- [47:42]
Marc Maron
It's just like that. You didn't tell me we're going to Waco. I mean, I got. I laughed out loud at that one. Yeah. And then when he pisses on the sacred tree.
- [47:50]
Ari Aster
Oh, yeah.
- [47:51]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And then he just knew it was over. You know, like.
- [47:55]
Ari Aster
He doesn't quite know. He's just like.
- [47:57]
Marc Maron
He doesn't know right up into it. And. And you kept a lot of the killing out of the frame. And then I guess a lot of people compare Midsommar to Wicker man, but I didn't find that association bothersome or necessarily relevant.
- [48:14]
Ari Aster
Well, again, that was just one of the things that was like, okay, I'm making this film in this genre. I was approached by people to do that. It's like, okay, that's an inescapable film in the folk horror genre. And so you nod to it and then you keep going. But I find the films to be, at their heart, very different animals. And then Wicker Man's an interesting one because I think it's just one of the best scripts ever. It's just a perfect script. Some of the execution is kind of goofy, especially the musical stuff. But, I mean, I love that film.
- [48:56]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. No, I thought it was beautiful. And I really do think it's interesting. At the end of both of those specifically genre horror movies, you're kind of like, oh, they're gonna. Good for them. There is that in contrast to the horror, like you said, there is this element of deliverance for these characters that is not horrible somehow.
- [49:20]
Ari Aster
Yeah. I want the feeling to be really complicated. I want you to come out with something that you have to kind of wrestle with and.
- [49:29]
Marc Maron
Sure. Because I may be being too surface about it, but it was just that vibe of like.
- [49:34]
Ari Aster
Well, no, I don't think you are. I think that's the. It's the. That I'm really interested in. What? It's a very manipulative medium because, I mean, anything where there's music involved. Because music is so emotional. Yeah. Like, the minute you start using music, you're. You're manipulating, whether it's for suspense or to make somebody, you know, whatever it is, you're like, right. That alone.
- [49:58]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [49:58]
Ari Aster
And then and then you have certain filmmakers who like, kind of devoted themselves to avoiding manipulation, which you can't even. You can't do. Like even, you know, the nature of it. People like, People like Bresson or.
- [50:10]
Marc Maron
Yeah, right. You can't really, because the nature of the construction is manipulative.
- [50:15]
Ari Aster
Yeah. And I think, I think, you know, I think the way that Bersone went about it was essentially to just like alienate you as much as possible, you know, like, those films are really fucking strange.
- [50:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah. So when. When you do like these movies like Hereditary and then like moving into Beau, I mean, do you. Are you. Are you. Do you find yourself resolving? You know, there's. And I've done this with singers, I've done it with writers. I mean, how much of you is in that, in terms of dealing with your mother? I mean, obviously with Beau is afraid. This is like. I was thinking about it yesterday, where if you have an anxious mind to the point of paralysis, what your mind will generate as possibilities for anything that you're afraid of is. It's almost infinite. And it seems like this is sort of an experiment in following all those trajectories to their most extreme arc or conclusion. It may be a comedy, but it's the horror of anxiety that you're really living in to the point where what's in his head, what isn't? Right. Yeah. Now, are you that person?
- [51:36]
Ari Aster
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm very anxious and I'm given to, you know, catastrophic thinking.
- [51:43]
Marc Maron
Me too. I just got. I just got diagnosed with obsessional anxiety. I'm full on catastrophic thing. It's paralyzing.
- [51:50]
Ari Aster
Yeah, it is. I, I would say that I, you know, I'm. I'm. I'm avoiding that diagnosis, but I. But it's. I could self diagnose right now.
- [52:00]
Marc Maron
I didn't want it, but like, as I get older, it's gotten sort of worse. And I was sort of like, well, I need to figure this out. Because it's sort of like I wish my imagination, I had more control over it, so I could just make puppets or whatever or at least get out of myself. But it's all driven by catastrophic thinking. A lot of it. And you just. Did you exercise anything with Beau?
- [52:25]
Ari Aster
Well, yeah, no. I mean, maybe to a point. I probably did exercise some stuff. In some ways you don't even notice these things. Like sometimes things just like, you know, kind of drift off your shoulder and you don't ever see them go.
- [52:42]
Marc Maron
Right, that's true. It happens when you get older too. You give less Fucks, yeah.
- [52:46]
Ari Aster
It's just too exhausting.
- [52:47]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [52:48]
Ari Aster
I can't care about this anymore.
- [52:49]
Marc Maron
Well, I've been saying on stage recently that, like, you know, the sort of connection between depression and anxiety, from my observation, is that, like, if you're really anxious, eventually you'll brain will peak with it and then your brain will be like, oh, let's just be sad. So it's sort of like the resting plateau between anxiety episodes. It's just sadness. It's kind of comforting once you've depleted yourself with your catastrophic thinking.
- [53:17]
Ari Aster
Yeah, yeah. Which is. Yeah, yeah. At a certain point, you just get exhausted.
- [53:22]
Marc Maron
Yeah. And you sort of like, this is kind of sad, I guess.
- [53:27]
Ari Aster
Yeah. It all ends in depression a little bit.
- [53:29]
Marc Maron
But it's not category. It's not, I don't think categorically like depression depression. It's really just the final stage of anxiety in its movement.
- [53:38]
Ari Aster
Yeah, I would say so. I would say. Yeah. I toggle back and forth.
- [53:44]
Marc Maron
Yeah. But with Beau, you knew, like, this is the thing about all the movies and why I sense from the horror movies that, you know, you were executing a vision that you were going to free eventually from genre. And with Beau. Right. You just sort of like, fuck it. Let's just. You had to write that thing and then look at it and go like, this is it. This is the movie.
- [54:08]
Ari Aster
Well, and it's, you know, and it's a comedy. You know, I want it to be funny.
- [54:12]
Marc Maron
Yeah, well, no, there's definitely very funny parts in it, but there is that element.
- [54:16]
Ari Aster
I want it all to be funny. Like, to be honest, it's just that it's got this weird structure where it kind of begins in like, this, like, 40 minute, like, rube Goldberg kind of like climactic quick thing. And it does this thing that, you know, anybody would talk you out of, which is if you're like, you don't make the movie slow down. Like, movies are supposed to speed up. And BO is a movie that kind of begins in like a frantic.
- [54:48]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [54:48]
Ari Aster
Like manic way, and then just like slowly grinds to this. Like, you know, but then it.
- [54:55]
Marc Maron
But then it elevates into, you know, it starts in a very sort of like, you know, frantic but very city driven vibe.
- [55:04]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [55:05]
Marc Maron
And then it kind of like, it moves into, you know, a type of almost theatrical, you know, props, and it almost starts. And then there's actually a play at the. Like, it moves into this other zone where you're not even sure where you are or why you're there, but it may start In a frantic thing that doesn't really have resolution, but then when it does arc into resolution, it becomes this sort of like, you know, crazy theatrical piece.
- [55:33]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [55:34]
Marc Maron
So it does have a build.
- [55:37]
Ari Aster
Yeah, I hope so. And, you know, you have the giant balls. You have the giant balls. Those are important.
- [55:41]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [55:42]
Ari Aster
You gotta.
- [55:43]
Marc Maron
It could be a play. I was talking to my producer, Brendan, I said. Because he thought that a lot of your stuff feels like you're kind of a playwright in a way.
- [55:53]
Ari Aster
Interesting. Yeah, I guess that one, I don't know, maybe like Ionesco.
- [55:57]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [55:57]
Ari Aster
But still, that sucks.
- [55:58]
Marc Maron
But I thought I talked about the balls would be great on stage, you know, the big balls.
- [56:02]
Ari Aster
Oh, yeah.
- [56:02]
Marc Maron
And he goes. Yeah, like Little Shop of Hearst.
- [56:04]
Ari Aster
Oh, that's right. That's. Yeah. And Beau is sort of like Seymour, in that case. Yeah. I love the Little Shop of Horrors. And that's a film. Yeah, that's a film that, you know, kind of is supposed to have an Ura Burroughs quality where it begins with himself. Yeah. It begins with him emerging from the womb as a baby, and it ends with him going back into the womb, you know.
- [56:30]
Marc Maron
Right. But there's also that sense of wiring at that moment that, like, you know, he was doomed from the get go.
- [56:36]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [56:36]
Marc Maron
Do you feel that way?
- [56:38]
Ari Aster
Well, I think we all are, in a sense. It's all about, you know, how you look at it.
- [56:43]
Marc Maron
But you seem pretty well adjusted. Maybe it's just you on the mic.
- [56:47]
Ari Aster
No, it's just. It's what we were talking about. I'm just tired now. Oh, yes. Yeah. I'm in that. I'm in the sadness.
- [56:54]
Marc Maron
But did you know. I mean, you have to know that these films are going, like. There's an element of what you're doing that is specific, and it's going to be kind of a challenge, and that's being diplomatic to most people.
- [57:08]
Ari Aster
Well, I guess I was surprised that.
- [57:16]
Marc Maron
Bo was not a blockbuster.
- [57:19]
Ari Aster
Well, in a way, I didn't think it was going to be a blockbuster. I knew that it was very specific, and I knew that it was kind of deliberately alienating in certain ways.
- [57:27]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [57:27]
Ari Aster
But I still, you know, the whole time I was making it, it was like, everything here is designed to be funny in one way or another.
- [57:33]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [57:34]
Ari Aster
And so for me, it was just like this. I'm making, like, a giant epic comedy. Comedy. And, like, it's. I want one of those. Like. So for me, it was like, I can't believe I'm providing this thing that I am so hungry for. Like, that's so exciting.
- [57:47]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Yeah. So this was your. Your. Your homage to Albert Brooks.
- [57:53]
Ari Aster
Well, I mean, you know, I think I became aware of, like, you know, for instance, the influence of, like, defending your life on, like, the very last scene, like, pretty late in the game, like, while we were, you know, cutting it together, I was like, oh, yeah. Like, this is sort of. This is sort of nodding to that. I mean, of course, that's, like, so in my system, but, you know, it's. It's sort of, as far as comedy goes, you know, I. I'm a. I'm a comedy guy. Like, I love. I love comedy. So, you know, I was thinking about Chris Morris, and I was thinking about. I don't know, I was thinking about Naked Gun.
- [58:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [58:36]
Ari Aster
And I was. You know, the Zuckers. Yeah. I was thinking. I was just. I was just thinking, like, you know, I. I want to make something that is, like a gag machine.
- [58:45]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [58:45]
Ari Aster
And I want to go for as long as possible. And a lot of these jokes are very different, and they kind of belong, you know, so it's almost like we're jumping sub genres where it's like, you're in the city. Okay. This is like, again, it's like Rube Goldberg, you know? And then you go into this. The country. Well, next you go into the suburbs.
- [59:04]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [59:05]
Ari Aster
Right. With Nathan Lane. And my first idea for that was. I mean, the first script was much wackier, and that was supposed to just have the Terms of Endearment, like, soundtrack playing. And it was just supposed to be like this bizarre, you know, parody of, like, you know, like a suburban.
- [59:25]
Marc Maron
For some reason, I'm getting like. Do you remember Natural Born Killers?
- [59:28]
Ari Aster
Of course. Yeah.
- [59:29]
Marc Maron
There's a lot of comedy in that.
- [59:31]
Ari Aster
Yeah, that's a lot of, like, really rough comedy.
- [59:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Like the laugh track.
- [59:36]
Ari Aster
While Rodney Gangerfield, like, beats his family. Yeah. That's a really interesting film. I think Oliver stone for, like, 10 years, starting with probably talk radio and then peaking with JFK and Nixon. He was doing really interesting stuff.
- [59:56]
Marc Maron
He definitely did what he wanted to do. Yeah, yeah. And there's definitely elements of the insanity of Natural Born Killers that heightened that genre. Yeah.
- [60:07]
Ari Aster
Yeah, that's definitely, like, everything in the kitchen sink.
- [60:10]
Marc Maron
That's right. Same with Beau, right? Same thing. Yeah.
- [60:14]
Ari Aster
I mean, very different films. I hope that there's, like, sort of a sweetness to Beau.
- [60:20]
Marc Maron
Yeah, Well, I think Joaquin brings that. Like, you can't help it, you know, like, the way he plays and even in Eddington. But ultimately, how did you feel about the reaction to Beau.
- [60:32]
Ari Aster
Well, I was pretty sad that it was. It was kind of so, like, maligned. And there were a lot of people who kind of reached out to tell me that they loved it. And I really. That helped. But, yeah, no, it was a bummer because it was a huge. It lost money. And critically, I wouldn't say it was reviled, but it was definitely. There is no consensus whatsoever. And then I would say now it feels like I hear about it more and more from people like, you know, and that it's like sort of being reassessed, which is nice because I love the film. I'm really proud of it. There are things that I might do differently if I did it now.
- [61:29]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Like what? Oh, how do you correct a movie that's three hours long?
- [61:36]
Ari Aster
Three hours long? I think I. While I was making it, I was really excited about, you know, how exhausting it was. It was like, supposed to be exhausting. And that last hour is meant to be like, a real gauntlet.
- [61:50]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [61:51]
Ari Aster
And, you know, there are, like. There are jokes where basically the joke.
- [61:54]
Marc Maron
Is like, how long it's taking.
- [61:57]
Ari Aster
How long it's taking. And like, you thought this was gonna be something and it's a dick in an attic. Like, it's not. It's like, I'm gonna just completely deflate this whole thing. Which in some ways was. There was like an aspect of, like, parody there where it's like, you know, I'm. I. I've already become kind of like, known for a certain thing, and I'm.
- [62:15]
Marc Maron
Going to like, complete something in the attic.
- [62:17]
Ari Aster
I'm going to upend it. Exactly. The attic. We're going to go up into the attic. And what's going to be there is going to be like, like just stupendously disappointing. You know what I mean? Just like. And I think, like, I would say I might. I would probably tighten the last hour in. In a certain way.
- [62:40]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [62:40]
Ari Aster
That I, I was not willing to in the edit there. But, you know, but. But these are, you know, I think these are all. All these things you take away after you release a film. And it's like, okay, it's. It's. It's out of my hands now. I can't really avoid people's reactions, responses. It's like you, you know, you kind of learn something and you find, like, what you. Decisions you made that you like, you know, no matter what the response, like, you're proud of that, sticking with. And then certain things were like. I'm not sure if it was like, worth losing that. That much of the audience. That decision. That decision.
- [63:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [63:16]
Ari Aster
It's like how, you know, the balance. Yeah. Like. Like, I think I ejected, like, a number of people from the theater that maybe, like, you know, I could have.
- [63:26]
Marc Maron
Used them with the balls in maybe.
- [63:29]
Ari Aster
Yeah. With the big dick in the attic, which I think that that's a good example of something where it's like, that's. I think that's something I really wanted to do when I was, like, a teenager and I was like, maybe my early 20s. Something I really would have found funny then. And it was like I was sort of doing it for him.
- [63:46]
Marc Maron
Oh, good.
- [63:46]
Ari Aster
Yeah. But then I think there's a point where I was like, you know, I'm not. I think that's more for him than even for me at this point, where it's like I. I, like, need to do something to. Yeah, that's a bit of an exorcism, you know. It's like I, I, I. I always compulsively, like, drew these, like, dick monsters. I don't know what. I don't know what that would, you know, says about me that I, like. I.
- [64:08]
Marc Maron
Well, it's fine.
- [64:09]
Ari Aster
I have hundreds or thousands of them of dick monsters. Yeah. It's just something that I just, like, went to. I was just like, I'm going to do this again. And. And so it felt like, you know, okay, I got to.
- [64:21]
Marc Maron
This is the conclusion. This is the. This is where we land. This is the last dick monster.
- [64:26]
Ari Aster
It's almost for my friends, you know. It's just like. All right, here it is, guys.
- [64:30]
Marc Maron
The guy who drew the dicks, he's got a. He made a big one.
- [64:33]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [64:34]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Well, that's good. I gotta watch it again now.
- [64:37]
Ari Aster
Good. Please. Yeah, get some friends in there.
- [64:40]
Marc Maron
But Eddington, I watched. And what compelled you? What was the seed of it?
- [64:47]
Ari Aster
I mean, just, like, living in this country and in this world and, you know, and just feeling. I don't know.
- [64:59]
Marc Maron
Well, it's kind of an exploration of when and where it broke the country and the brains of the people in it in a lot of ways, where something was. All of a sudden, humans were taken out of the community of humans and sort of thrown into this, you know, kind of whirlwind of bullshit and politics and all the sort of fear and anger that was residing in the human community had now had a place to sort of go with the propagandized bullshit. And it was, you know, elevated into this, you know, kind of divisive shit show. Right. And this was sort of the cauldron of that. And you picked, you know, a small town to kind of explore all of what was happening in early Covid that now defines the end of civilization as we know it.
- [65:54]
Ari Aster
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I don't think it started. I don't think anything started with COVID I think Covid just felt like, you know, the moment at which, like the door kind of slammed shut behind us and it's like, oh, shit, we're stuck here now.
- [66:09]
Marc Maron
Something broke.
- [66:10]
Ari Aster
Something absolutely broke. I think it was huge inflection point. And I think we're still living.
- [66:14]
Marc Maron
That's what I mean.
- [66:15]
Ari Aster
Yeah, we're still living through it. And it's, I think the moment where we were like stranded for good, you know, like, it's just like, well, now we're, now we're stuck and how do we ever get out of this?
- [66:27]
Marc Maron
Right. But you know, the real demon or the real sort of villain of the film is essentially propaganda.
- [66:36]
Ari Aster
Yes.
- [66:38]
Marc Maron
And people's inability to protect their minds or think rationally in a cauldron of fear and anger and what they grab onto. Right.
- [66:50]
Ari Aster
Well, and we're living in this hyper individualized achievement society.
- [66:56]
Marc Maron
Right. Everybody's their own brand.
- [66:58]
Ari Aster
Yeah. And we're self exploiting. And so we also have. And identity is so important to us. And so, you know, we, these ideas we hold, these convictions we hold, like they're so like, that's our self, that's our. But it's also like. But where, where are these, are these, are, are they really coming from us? Like, but also are we really the source of those convictions, you know, like, or are we being fed these things?
- [67:21]
Marc Maron
But they're, they're markers of virtue on some level. Right. And they're, they're not rooted in, in principle necessarily. I just read a book about this and it was a very difficult book. But his basic idea was that communities don't really function or exist anymore. That people are unto themselves. And what they are is just a series of markers that are identifiable as a part of a point of view that really have nothing connected to it.
- [67:52]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [67:53]
Marc Maron
And so that's a good, that's an interesting idea that, you know, who are we serving? You know, I've noticed that with comedy too. I mean, if you're trying to get a clip to go viral, you know, you're not. Your freedom of voice is really not part of it. It's. How do I design this to be symbiotic with the corporate platform that's going to enable me to get this part of myself out there or how I want to be seen. Right.
- [68:14]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [68:16]
Marc Maron
But I thought it was. I saw a little bit of a review that I watched the movie and I found it. You know, I had to really think about it and think about the humanity at the core of it. And you brought in everything. You mean, you brought in, you know, kind of leftist young protesters. You brought in, you know, conspiracy theorists. You had. You had a character in there played by Austin Butler that was definitely Russell Brand, like. And I don't know if that was the starting point for him.
- [68:44]
Ari Aster
He was. Russell Brand, like, was one of several people that we were talking about.
- [68:49]
Marc Maron
And you had the mother who was a conspiracy freak, and then you had this fairly impotent legacy sheriff who's married to the old sheriff's daughter, who is indecisive, relatively mundane and not that principled. Right. Who evolves into. You see the brain break.
- [69:12]
Ari Aster
Yeah. And it's easy to forget, I think, because everything is so politicized immediately. It's easy to forget, like, how much of the landscape we are projecting our petty shit onto, onto the architecture of reality. You know, it's like. And that's a very important part of the film is that everybody is fighting on what seem to be ideological grounds. Like, really important ideological grounds.
- [69:40]
Marc Maron
But.
- [69:40]
Ari Aster
But it's all. But just beneath that is just a bunch of broken people. Yeah. People living in a small town who have personal histories.
- [69:53]
Marc Maron
And they get infected.
- [69:54]
Ari Aster
Yeah. And they're projecting.
- [69:58]
Marc Maron
Projecting. But they're infected with information that's quelling their anger and quelling their fear and giving them definitions. But it's ultimately shallow. And I think that to play it in a small community was kind of great because it eventually infects them to the point where the community is impossible.
- [70:17]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [70:18]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [70:18]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [70:19]
Marc Maron
And I just thought, like. Well, the framing was that it's a Western.
- [70:23]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [70:24]
Marc Maron
Were you conscious of that?
- [70:25]
Ari Aster
Oh, 100%. Yeah. And, yeah. It's about a community, as you're saying. That is not a community.
- [70:33]
Marc Maron
Right.
- [70:33]
Ari Aster
They're living in the same rooms on the same streets, but they're not living on the same plane.
- [70:39]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Because their plane is social media or it's information wherever the.
- [70:46]
Ari Aster
Yeah. And ultimately, the film is really about a data center being built just outside of town.
- [70:51]
Marc Maron
That's right.
- [70:52]
Ari Aster
And so these people are killing each other based on a lot of the signals they're kind of receiving in this feedback system. Meanwhile, big things are happening right over their heads. Like they're being changed. The world is being changed. And you Know, and they're. And I hope that somewhere inherent in the film is this idea like that there is big power out there and, you know, and there's a big problem. And it's not necessarily between ourselves, of.
- [71:26]
Marc Maron
Course, but in the end, dividing us.
- [71:28]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [71:29]
Marc Maron
Well, that's interesting, because the basic premise of the political conflict is it's about masks on a surface, but then it's really about corporate investment in a state that will bring jobs, bring money. But the devil's bargain is that you're creating a generator for the thing that's destroying the fabric of community.
- [71:53]
Ari Aster
That's right. And these corporations benefit from constant engagement in these ideological arguments and in these, you know, anything that'll hold the eyes.
- [72:06]
Marc Maron
It could be cats.
- [72:07]
Ari Aster
Yeah. And I'm, you know, like, look, I'm left, and I. You know, like, I've heard some accusations that the film is, like, centrist, and I think that's. I just. That's not at all.
- [72:19]
Marc Maron
What else is the left gonna say?
- [72:20]
Ari Aster
Yeah, that. That, for me, feels like a pretty bad faith reading of the film. And I would say, for me, it was important to.
- [72:33]
Marc Maron
It was an exploration of all sides.
- [72:35]
Ari Aster
Yeah. And I think it's important to question ourselves and also try to find the humanity in the people that we see as against us and that we abhor. It's. And that was part of the exercise for me, was like, I'm gonna try to pull back as far as I can out of myself and take as sociological a stance as possible, which, you know, again, as possible. Right. Because I only have my subjective point of view. And part of this was also like, you know, when I decided to start writing this in 2020, in June 2020, I was like, you know, in Twitter, I was like, I wasn't posting, but I was retweeting. I was being, in some cases, pressured to retweet. And I started a bunch of burner profiles. I started a bunch of just separate profiles, and I got myself into different algorithms, and I just took a lot of screenshots so that I wouldn't forget anything about the moment. But I also found, like, these algorithms I got myself into. I could not, for the life of me get myself out of.
- [73:49]
Marc Maron
Wow.
- [73:50]
Ari Aster
And I tried. That was part of the experiment. Okay. Now that I'm here and now that I've kind of identified myself to this feedback, this feedback system, you know, sorry, I have a stutter that I'm in this case, like a Nazi. Right. Like, can I get out of that? No, I could not.
- [74:11]
Marc Maron
It just keeps coming for your brain.
- [74:13]
Ari Aster
Yeah. It's just once you're there, you're stuck.
- [74:15]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Well, I just thought, you know, that the humanness at the core of it, the raw humanness, which is a guy that, you know, is supposedly the guy who's going to save the town. If we're going to talk about the Western, you know, an utterly impotent cowboy, you know, finds his, his moxie and his strength in slander to kind of turn the tables and as like, fuck you, fuck all of it, I'm gonna be this guy. He crossed the Rubicon of self or whatever that is and became this doubling down monster. But he still plays it with a certain amount of sensitivity. That is kind of crazy.
- [74:58]
Ari Aster
Yeah, well, that's important, I think, you know, and I want the film to sort of function as like a roller coaster ride of like, sympathy. Right.
- [75:04]
Marc Maron
You know, jerk you around.
- [75:06]
Ari Aster
Yeah, yeah. Where, you know, everybody's complicated and maybe you understand him in a way you don't based on whatever your politics are. Right. Like, maybe in the beginning you don't want to be this close to this guy.
- [75:16]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [75:16]
Ari Aster
But it might be a relief when things turn for.
- [75:18]
Marc Maron
Yeah, but I think that the miracle of the movie is that all of them, you can find empathy with all of them. Yeah. Really. You know, all the major players in the community system you can, you know, empathize with. Now, some of them are obviously empathetic characters, but even the ones that aren't.
- [75:37]
Ari Aster
I wanted it to be a film that was empathic in multiple directions, and some of those are oppositional and they're hard.
- [75:44]
Marc Maron
Yeah. Well, good job.
- [75:45]
Ari Aster
And hopefully it's funny. I hope it's funny. Did you laugh?
- [75:50]
Marc Maron
I did it a couple times.
- [75:51]
Ari Aster
Okay.
- [75:52]
Marc Maron
You know, but I mean, but again, you know, the, the, it's not horror. It may be structurally a western on some levels, it's not a comedy. But I, I do like when you, the ending is funny, but it's, it's horrifying.
- [76:06]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [76:07]
Marc Maron
But, yeah, so I, you know, I, I, yeah, I, I'm gonna have to rewatch all your movies as comedy.
- [76:13]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [76:14]
Marc Maron
Just out of respect for you.
- [76:15]
Ari Aster
I think he'll, I, I think he'll be able to find it.
- [76:18]
Marc Maron
No, I'm not saying it's not there, but I get very consumed with the humanity of something.
- [76:23]
Ari Aster
No, me too. Well, me too.
- [76:25]
Marc Maron
You know, comedy is relief. If the humanity is profoundly dark, you may not come up to the point of like, laugh out loud, but the relief is there.
- [76:33]
Ari Aster
No, you laugh so you don't have to Cry, you know?
- [76:35]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah. Believe me. Yeah. Laughter, that should be crying is my favorite.
- [76:41]
Ari Aster
And, you know, and that's what's tricky, is that the film is. The film is satire. But I never wanted any of the characters to be, like, objects of derision or, you know.
- [76:55]
Marc Maron
No, no.
- [76:55]
Ari Aster
I didn't want to reduce. You know, certain characters are more cynical than others, but even the most cynical, bad actors in the film are all looking for community. I mean, sure, you know, some of them are pretty bad, but, yeah, it's.
- [77:13]
Marc Maron
Like satire on the level of. Do you remember that movie Walker?
- [77:17]
Ari Aster
Of course. By Alex Cox. I love Walker. The anachronisms of that film are so interesting.
- [77:22]
Marc Maron
And that's sort of like. In that world of horror satire, there's a lot of movies that ride a line with that. I'm a big fan of the movie Ravenous, I think.
- [77:32]
Ari Aster
I love Ravenous. One of my favorite scores, too.
- [77:35]
Marc Maron
The music of that. That is a genius satire.
- [77:38]
Ari Aster
It's brilliant.
- [77:39]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [77:40]
Ari Aster
That's Antonia Bird, right? Antonia Bird, yeah.
- [77:43]
Marc Maron
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [77:44]
Ari Aster
She also made that film Priest.
- [77:45]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [77:46]
Ari Aster
But Ravenous is a masterpiece. I love that. I'm glad you mentioned that. I'm always talking about especially that score, which is Michael Nyman and Damon Albarn. It's just one of the great. That was something of a reference for the music in this film.
- [78:02]
Marc Maron
Oh, really?
- [78:03]
Ari Aster
Yeah.
- [78:03]
Marc Maron
Interesting. Well, yeah, because that is a satire on manifest destiny. I mean, it is, like, straight up. You know, there's nothing. It's framed as a horror movie, but I think a lot of horror movies are satire. But that thing can only be read like that. And it's funny.
- [78:17]
Ari Aster
Oh, it's really funny.
- [78:19]
Marc Maron
Yeah.
- [78:19]
Ari Aster
It's really bleak. It's really funny. It's really exciting.
- [78:23]
Marc Maron
It's hard to find.
- [78:25]
Ari Aster
It is hard to find. I remember seeing that in theaters in Santa Fe with my friend Zach, and we were just, like, giddy coming out of theater.
- [78:37]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah, it's great.
- [78:38]
Ari Aster
So much fun.
- [78:39]
Marc Maron
So, in closing, how's your mom feel about your movies?
- [78:44]
Ari Aster
She's. She, you know, she's proud of me, and she likes the movies, and she. And she. I. She's very supportive. I think, you know, certain things she likes more than others.
- [79:00]
Marc Maron
Of course, you're never gonna get all, you know, you're not gonna get everything you need.
- [79:05]
Ari Aster
No, no, but I. But. But, no, I'm lucky in that sense. When Beau Is Afraid flopped, my dad did tell me, maybe you shouldn't write the next one.
- [79:19]
Marc Maron
Get back on your feet.
- [79:21]
Ari Aster
You might have been right. Also, just a little shout to my. Well, one of my best friends is Dan Clowes, and he was telling me before I came. Yeah, over here. Like, oh, yeah, Mark, that. That's. That's my best conversation. That was. That's the best one.
- [79:38]
Marc Maron
Oh, good. Yeah, he's great.
- [79:39]
Ari Aster
He's. He's the best.
- [79:40]
Marc Maron
He's great.
- [79:41]
Ari Aster
I love him so much.
- [79:42]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah. All that stuff had a profound impact on me too. Yeah. His work, huge.
- [79:46]
Ari Aster
Eight ball.
- [79:47]
Marc Maron
Oh, the best. Yeah.
- [79:48]
Ari Aster
Eight ball was like, as big to me, like, like, for me, like, as a kid, as, like, you know, Kubrick or any of those guys. Totally. Just.
- [79:57]
Marc Maron
Oh, yeah. Some of those stories are just fucking great.
- [80:00]
Ari Aster
Just so great. And my humor just like, you know. Well, it's just. I mean, so much of it I like, kind of like found in his work where it's like, okay, this is what I find funny. This is what I love.
- [80:12]
Marc Maron
Yeah. The underground comics in general were savior to me.
- [80:16]
Ari Aster
Absolutely.
- [80:17]
Marc Maron
Well, say hi to him for me.
- [80:18]
Ari Aster
I will.
- [80:19]
Marc Maron
Great talking to you.
- [80:19]
Ari Aster
Thanks for having me.
- [80:20]
Marc Maron
Yeah. He was great, right? Yeah. Go see that movie Eddington. It's now playing in theaters. Hang out for a minute. Hey, folks, let's talk about OCD for a minute. If you watch a lot of movies and tv, you might think OCD is all about being clean or being organized all the time. But it's a highly serious condition that involves unwanted intrusive thoughts that can be very distressing and can make your life unmanageable. The thing is, you can't just get any kind of therapy. OCD needs specialized treatment. The wrong approach can actually make it worse. That's where NOCD comes in. They're the world's number one provider of specialized OCD therapy, and they have licensed, extensively trained therapists who deeply understand ocd. There's no judgment here, only solutions. NOCD provides ERP therapy that's exposure and response prevention therapy. It's the most effective treatment for OCD, no matter what symptoms you're experiencing. NOCD therapy is 100% virtual and covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. They also provide support between sessions, including direct messaging with your therapist so you're never alone. If any of this sounds familiar, go to nocd.com and book a free 15 minute call with their team. That's nocd.com it's time to take care of yourself, folks. On Thursday's episode, I talk with my bad guys co star Awkwafina. Before that happens, you can check out my talk with another bad guy, Mr. Piranha, Anthony Ramos.
- [82:03]
Anthony Ramos
I thought about quitting because I was like, yo, this shit's too hard, man.
- [82:05]
Marc Maron
Like, what part of it was too hard?
- [82:07]
Anthony Ramos
Just the auditions and being like, I can't be in South Pacific. I can't be in, like, ain't misbehaving. I ain't gonna be in. You know, I'm not gonna be being in Carousel.
- [82:19]
Marc Maron
It feels like they've opened that up more now.
- [82:21]
Anthony Ramos
Now. It's now for sure. Yeah. Like now. I mean, I don't. I don't feel. I mean, I'm excited about.
- [82:26]
Marc Maron
Yeah. You know, but then it was still kind of like, you know. Yeah, they're not going to cast.
- [82:32]
Anthony Ramos
They only started doing that, like, in the last, like, I would say five years, you know, where they really started to be like, oh, yeah, let's open it up, let's cast it, you know, But. But it wasn't. Yeah, they weren't really doing that shit.
- [82:46]
Marc Maron
Yeah, for a while you were frustrated.
- [82:49]
Anthony Ramos
I was super frustrated, man. I was like, yo, like, you know, first three. Three years of auditioning, I was like, yo, like, what the. What do I have to do?
- [82:57]
Marc Maron
Like, well, did they tell you to act differently?
- [82:59]
Anthony Ramos
I mean, I had. I mean, you know, one of my teachers, and this was.
- [83:02]
Ari Aster
She.
- [83:02]
Anthony Ramos
You know, the teacher was just trying to help, but, you know, but I was. He was like, yo. They were like, yo, maybe if you grow your hair out, you might be a little ethnically ambiguous. You know, people won't really know your race. And then you can audition for different roles. You can audition for white and maybe, you know, Arabic and Latina.
- [83:21]
Marc Maron
So many Arabic parts, Right? Good idea. You're right. I'm really missing out on. Want to go from Latino to Arabic a lot more opportunity.
- [83:38]
Ari Aster
Oh, my gosh, bro.
- [83:43]
Marc Maron
Thanks for that advice. Thanks. Thanks. That's episode 1441 with Anthony Ramos. You can listen to that for free wherever you listen to podcasts. To get every episode of WTF AD free, sign up for WTF Plus. You can go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. Here's some Rock Boomer Lives Monkey and La Fonda Cat Angels Everywhere.