Episode 1668 - Bowen Yang

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1668: Bowen Yang

Release Date: August 11, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 1668 of the WTF with Marc Maron podcast, host Marc Maron sits down with Bowen Yang, a standout cast member from Saturday Night Live (SNL). Bowen, known for his sharp wit and memorable performances, shares intimate details about his journey in comedy, personal struggles, and experiences navigating his dual heritage. This episode delves deep into themes of mental health, sobriety, cultural identity, and the pressures of maintaining authenticity in the entertainment industry.

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Mental Health and Sobriety

The conversation begins with Marc discussing his own struggles with anxiety and sobriety, setting a candid tone for the episode. Both Marc and Bowen emphasize the importance of mental health and the challenges of maintaining sobriety in a high-pressure environment like SNL.

• Marc Maron (00:00): "I don't know why... it's just... I'm just the kind of person that has to speak their mind because I live in it."

• Bowen Yang (16:39): "I have a path that I can walk with that. And I've been walking it for better or worse..."

Bowen opens up about his 26 years of sobriety, highlighting the ongoing battle with addiction and the importance of support systems in overcoming personal demons.

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Dual Heritage and Family History

Bowen shares poignant stories about his Chinese heritage, detailing his parents' experiences during the Cultural Revolution and their subsequent move to Australia and then to North America. This section provides a rich backdrop to understand Bowen's cultural identity and the expectations placed upon him by his family.

• Bowen Yang (26:24): "My dad was getting his doctorate in mining explosives engineering. Pretty specific."

• Marc Maron (28:35): "But they're also humanists."

Bowen discusses his recent trip to Inner Mongolia, reflecting on his family's roots and the cultural shock experienced by his grandparents when moving to urban areas. He also touches upon the emotional complexities of reconnecting with extended family in China.

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Navigating SNL and Creative Pressures

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Bowen’s experiences on SNL, the pressures of being a gay Asian man in the spotlight, and the expectations to represent his community authentically. Marc and Bowen explore the balance between personal expression and meeting audience expectations.

• Bowen Yang (73:48): "I feel like people sort of like, internally want me to do..."

• Marc Maron (78:02): "Sometimes the opportunity will reveal itself and be like, oh, that's scary. Maybe I should do that."

They delve into the creative processes behind sketch comedy versus stand-up, and how collaborative environments like SNL differ from the solitary nature of stand-up comedy.

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Conversion Therapy and Personal Trauma

Bowen recounts his harrowing experience with conversion therapy during his teenage years, providing a raw and honest look into the lasting impact of such practices on his mental health and self-identity.

• Bowen Yang (56:07): "The trauma of conversion therapy... the whole point of this was so that I could, like, work up to telling them in Chinese..."

• Marc Maron (62:35): "But at this point, your father's established. He's working, you know, he's living the immigrant life to his full potential."

This segment highlights the emotional scars left by conversion therapy and the resilience required to overcome them. Bowen discusses the pivotal moments that led him to embrace his true self despite societal and familial pressures.

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Cultural Representation and Community

The episode also touches on the broader themes of cultural representation in media, the challenges faced by Asian LGBTQ+ individuals, and the importance of visibility and authentic portrayal in shaping societal perceptions.

• Bowen Yang (84:28): "I think what's great about her is that, you know, despite her journey into, you know, extreme self-expression..."

• Marc Maron (88:58): "And they're referencing that and being like, oh my God, maybe he really is straight. Ha ha."

Bowen reflects on his role as a gay Asian entertainer and the responsibility that comes with it, while also addressing the stereotypes and fetishization prevalent in both straight and LGBTQ+ communities.

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Reflections on Comedy and Personal Growth

Marc and Bowen engage in a thoughtful discussion about the evolution of their comedic styles, the importance of authenticity, and the personal growth that comes from facing one’s fears and insecurities.

• Marc Maron (77:14): "Well, there is something happening. ... age being one of them."

• Bowen Yang (80:08): "I want there to be others. And there have been. I just... others."

They explore the delicate balance between seeking validation through humor and maintaining genuine self-expression, emphasizing the therapeutic aspects of comedy in processing personal and collective traumas.

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Closing Thoughts and Future Projects

As the conversation winds down, Bowen shares his excitement about future projects and his dedication to fostering a supportive community for gay Asian individuals in the entertainment industry. Marc wraps up the episode by highlighting Bowen’s Emmy nomination and expressing admiration for his resilience and talent.

• Marc Maron (87:29): "But you are okay because you... got your space."

• Bowen Yang (88:07): "I think the touching thing about the China social media moment was that they were like..."

The episode concludes with both hosts expressing gratitude for the open and honest dialogue, leaving listeners with a sense of hope and inspiration.

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Notable Quotes

• Bowen Yang (16:39): "Just being a decent human, especially when you're a flawed motherfucker. Hard."

• Marc Maron (43:58): "You just have to relax."

• Bowen Yang (56:07): "I have PTSD from that."

• Marc Maron (78:02): "Sometimes the opportunity will reveal itself and be like, oh, that's scary. Maybe I should do that."

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Conclusion

Episode 1668 of WTF with Marc Maron offers a profound and heartfelt conversation between Marc and Bowen Yang. Through their shared vulnerabilities and insights, listeners gain a deeper understanding of Bowen’s journey in the comedy world, his cultural heritage, and the ongoing quest for personal authenticity. This episode stands as a testament to the power of open dialogue in overcoming adversity and fostering genuine connections.

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Sign up for WTF+ to access the full show archives and weekly bonus material: https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast

Transcript

[Bowen Yang]

Lock the gate.

[Marc Maron]

All right, let's do this. How are you? What the, what the Buddies? What the Nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Marin. This is my podcast. Wtf? Welcome to it. So what's going on? I got, I got Bowen Yang on the show today. What a, what a treat that was. We've been trying to get this talk together for a while. You know him, He's a cast member on Saturday Night Live. He's also been in Wicked Bros and Dicks, the Musical, which was a crass, beautiful piece of work. He's nominated at the Emmys this year for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series. And it was just a, a very, A very classic kind of episode, classic kind of engagement and talk. That is what makes this show compelling to me for all these years, and I'm sure compelling to you. I, I, I know that a lot of the stuff I've been talking about out there in the world, and a lot of the clips from my special have kind of taken off. And between us, I mean, me and you, my audience, I, I've been talking about this for over a decade, and I kind of keep it here with us and making the rounds at podcasts. It's just, I don't know why, you know, I feel you get to a certain age where zero are given, but also, it's like someone's gotta say something. And the truth is, I don't know that I see myself as a courageous person because it's hard to put yourself out there like that and then sort of see what happens. It's scary, and it's a little overwhelming, but it's not some sort of act of courage in my mind. It's just. I'm just the kind of person that has to speak their mind because I live in it. I live in my mind. I live in the world, and my mind processes that. And then I have to talk about it somewhere with different degrees of aggravation. But certainly in the climate we're in now, I just couldn't help myself. And a lot of times I don't necessarily say exactly what I mean because I just don't want to shoulder the burden of that. But I always get to a point in most situations where I'm going to unload. And if it's not personal or based in spite, then I have to accept it as the way I see things, as a judgment or a piece of criticism or just what I believe. And what gives me the right to do that? Me. Me. Who am I to judge? Me? I mean, who else is there? How diplomatic do you have to fucking be? You know, because you're in the same business or you don't want to hurt someone's feelings, yada yada. And eventually if I, if it's the right day and I'm sitting behind a mic and it's not mine and you know I'm going to pop off, I'm going to pop off, but it's not going to be unconsidered. And you know, the pushback from people that do not like your point of view, the pushback from. There's a lot of these debate points that, you know, right wing zombies and reactors use, you know, they use, well, listen to this old guy, cranky old guy, listen to the bitter guy, listen to the cuck. The idea that guys in their 20s who have zero game and can count the number of times they've been laid on one hand or the hand in their mind, or they only fuck that hand calling me a cuck in its basic definition is fucking hilarious. No game, just guys out there trolling around looking for their fascist fuck doll with a mouth that looks like it's been hit and covered with gloss and you know, some sort of blonde spectrum hair. The dream girl who doesn't talk. They fantasize about it all the time, but usually again, it's that hand. If you don't have account, you got the hand. But nonetheless I don't want to drift on that. So look folks, this is an ad by BetterHelp. The idea of getting advice online seems overwhelming. There's a lot of information out there, some of it's good, a lot of it's bad or just plain made up. And that gets even harder when you're trying to get advice about wellness and mental health. But BetterHelp is an online solution where you not only get great advice for dealing with your mental health, you can you get person to person assistance and real world solutions. That's the stuff you need to break through the online noise. And as the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of experience. One thing I've learned by going to therapy is that you know when you need it. After you spend enough time with a therapist, you can be a better judge of yourself and your needs. Better Help is a great way to get you started on that path. With over 35,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served served more than 5 million people globally. Talk it out with Better Help WTF listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com WTF. That's better. H E L P.com WTF and look, I know, you know, my problems are not necessarily that interesting or even that bad, okay? I get that. And I get a lot of my. My issues are my own and reactions to things. I get all of that. I mean, I just talked. Talked to an old buddy I hadn't seen about a year, had a massive heart attack. My age. And just sitting with him and talking through, you know, that journey of getting to the hospital in the nick of time, getting the stent put in, I mean, that's. That's real fucking scary. Real fucking hard stuff. Life at this age. I talked to another buddy of mine, and senior year, had a complete manic break, ended up institutionalized, diagnosed bipolar, got out trying to level off on some medicine so he can function, and he's doing it. And oddly with. With that guy, I'm like, why isn't this guy texting me back? Why is he fucking, you know, avoiding me or whatever? And then you find out like, oh, my God, dude, well, I'm glad you're all right. That's life. You gotta sit down with your friends occasionally, especially the ones you haven't talked to in a while, and you're sitting there thinking they're an asshole for not getting back to you. Who the hell knows what they're going through? These two guys I hadn't talked to in a long time, I started thinking about them, and then out of nowhere, one of them texted me. I'm like, that must be kismet, coincidence, mystical God's hand, Whatever you want to say, however you want to frame it, that guy was in trouble. He's okay. They're both okay. And it gets me into the present. And I had 26 years sober on Saturday. Jesus. Being grateful for what you have is a big deal. Being humble and trying to be human, as hard as that can be, to be a decent human, especially when you're a flawed motherfucker. Hard. And God knows I've had my struggles, and God knows I've made mistakes. And God knows that ultimately I try to show up and do the right thing as best I can in the shadow of my codependency and my alcoholism and addiction. But, you know, I have a path that I can. I can walk with that. And I've been walking it for better or worse, sometimes all in, sometimes not in at all, but aware for 26 years. I know that sounds daunting. But on some level at this age, the years are going by more quickly and all of a sudden you're at another benchmark, another year of sobriety. And I guess I do want to say, because I field a lot of emails and I talk to a lot of people and I've talked about it here candidly, that the idea of being sober, if you have the bug or you just can't see it because you do not believe life would be fulfilling or interesting or exciting without whatever you do, whatever you lean on, whatever you can't stop, I will tell you from my experience, that's a lie. Actually, things get even crazier once you get sober for a good few years. You know, you'll know a crazy you don't even have any experience with. And that's the craziness of you arriving at you and then trying to get that into shape. Who are you as a human when you're not kind of annihilating your possibilities in that department? And look, I did it the way I did it and I got it. You know, it was fits and starts for years with program. And eventually I locked in, and I locked in hard and I rewired my brain. I let that program brainwash me because as I've heard before, my brain needed washing. I needed a template that I could work within that would make me a less selfish, less up person that could take responsibility for his actions and not annihilate himself with substances or alcohol. All up to you. But I just want to say, without, you know, getting too much into it and not acting as a representative of the program, look, however you do it, do it. But just know that, you know, if you do it without support, you're going to go crazy and you'll probably. The way that brain works, it's going to lead you right back to where you left off. And that can happen with the support. But if you're going to let yourself go crazy because you're experiencing life for the first time with some clarity and sobriety and you're not just jumping on some other bandwagon to fill that void. Bandwagon could be anything that doesn't destroy your life or things that do, you know, a person. I guess I just want to express that it's not necessarily easy to live life sober, but it is better because you're in life. And then you just have to reckon with your heart and mind and spirit, I guess, on some level. But I will say that it's worth it. And I will say that anything I have today including who I am. But any success or any capacity to step up and do the work of life and of art, I can do. Because somehow or another, I hit a point where I needed help and I got it and I stayed in it. And no matter how hard things have gotten during that 25 years, divorces, deaths, bankruptcy, I didn't drink, didn't use drugs, went crazy, used a lot of other things to try to keep my sanity, to, you know, little success usually. But, you know, relief is relief. But look, it's doable and it's worth it because what you gain is who you really are. So that's my gratitude pitch, that's my service pitch, and, you know, that's my sharing the hope. Because you will lose the obsession to destroy yourself in, you know, fairly short time. And then you just have to live with that squirminess. But it's worth it. Even if I don't sound sober half the time, even if I don't in terms of not being drunk, but being a little brittle, a little dry, a little. A little angry. Well, you know, look, I choose to hold on to the character defects that define my personality, if they're not too dangerous. And, you know, you can do it your way, you know, whatever you got going. So. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. We have a website that's powered by Squarespace, which has made life easier for us since we started using it more than a decade ago. With Squarespace's collection of cutting edge design tools, anyone can build an online presence that perfectly fits their brand or their business. Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services on your site and get paid. Plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. And with Squarespace's Blueprint AI feature, you get a website builder that helps you create a fully customized site within minutes. Choose whatever features you want to get the most out of your site. Just like we do with wtfpod.com check out squarespace.com WTF for a free trial, and then use offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com WTF offer code WTF. So I did this interview with Bowen in my hotel room in New York City a week or so ago, and it really unfolded into a beautiful thing. He's nominated for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series at this year's Emmy Awards, and this is us having a. Having a sit down. Well, whatever I said this morning that resonated with you was after two Weeks of profound, debilitating anxiety after this Albuquerque trip or.

[Bowen Yang]

No, just with just the world.

[Marc Maron]

It happened in Albuquerque.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But to this point where I couldn't compartmentalize anything and everything was coming in at the same intensity.

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And. And I. And I think a good chunk of it had to do with accepting, all right, dude, you're. You're. You know, you're doing good.

[Bowen Yang]

But it's. It's. It's. It's also coinciding with, like, this sun setting, so that is also crazy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. I can't really separate it all. It just all happens at once. How do you handle it? Are you anxious?

[Bowen Yang]

I was on Wellbutrin. Oh, yeah?

[Marc Maron]

How did that go?

[Bowen Yang]

Not well.

[Marc Maron]

What did it do to you?

[Bowen Yang]

I was taking it while we were shooting Wicked. And what that was, and this is well documented, was I was flying out of.

[Marc Maron]

Well documented problem.

[Bowen Yang]

Well documented problem crisis. I was flying Sunday morning, first flight out of JFK on Sundays after an snl.

[Marc Maron]

Right. So you're wasted.

[Bowen Yang]

I was. No, I was quite. I was. I. I was well behaved.

[Marc Maron]

No, but I mean, were you tired?

[Bowen Yang]

Just tired? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would. I would fly back and forth from London to New York, you know, Sunday to Tuesday, basically, and. Or Sunday to Wednesday. I'd have two days of shooting in London and then I would fly back and do the show.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, was it like seven hours?

[Bowen Yang]

Seven hours each way. I thought I could hack it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

With like, nootropics and, like, Red Bull. Celsius. I thought I could chemically get ahead of it.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Bowen Yang]

Cut it. And full breakdown.

[Marc Maron]

How'd that manifest?

[Bowen Yang]

Just waking up and feeling like I didn't know who I was, where I was, why I was there, like, why, you know, like. Yeah. And so then. And then I. And then I think I had to, like. I like, linked it back to the Wellbutrin, and I was like, okay, it's not anxiety. It's. It. But it exists. That is like a thrum. But I think that the main thing was depression. And so then we switched to Luxapro.

[Marc Maron]

How's that working, love?

[Bowen Yang]

I love it.

[Marc Maron]

Really.

[Bowen Yang]

And I'm on the lowest dose and I've actually. No, I had to. I was. I had to split the lowest dose and I was only taking half pills. And now I've bumped it up to just one cute little.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Capsule.

[Marc Maron]

And it. It didn't mute anything.

[Bowen Yang]

I don't think. So.

[Marc Maron]

There was no adjustment.

[Bowen Yang]

There was an adjustment. Oh, no, no. There was a huge adjustment. Those first two weeks where those are no fucking joke. And I, I don't understand how people, how anyone surmounts that and they stick with.

[Marc Maron]

Because the two weeks.

[Bowen Yang]

The two weeks, huh?

[Marc Maron]

What did it do? I was, I'm asking for a friend.

[Bowen Yang]

Really? Okay. I'm. I was, I was so tired, just languorous. I, like, this is my thing. I use a lot of ICT words. I'm so sorry. This is, this is, this is a product of like.

[Marc Maron]

No, I like it.

[Bowen Yang]

My parents getting me on like when I was like 12.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

They're like, you're going to start studying for the SATs now.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. We want you ready by 14.

[Bowen Yang]

Exactly.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

But yeah, I was, I was so tired. And then, and then I think, like through the morass, you come out the other side and you're like, oh, I feel great.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Bowen Yang]

Just.

[Marc Maron]

So one day you're like, okay.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, kind of. I think, I think you'd love it.

[Marc Maron]

Huh.

[Bowen Yang]

I. But haven't, haven't I heard you talk about Prozac, though?

[Marc Maron]

Well, that was for my cat.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, that was the cat.

[Marc Maron]

And I hadn't done it in a long time. But like, I still believe that through radical self acceptance that I can find.

[Bowen Yang]

Which it seems like you've arrived at.

[Marc Maron]

I'm close.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But it's fleeting, you know, Like, I have four days of it in New York because I'm getting a lot of attention, but when I get home, I'm like, what?

[Bowen Yang]

I was texting Sarah Sherman and Aidy Bryant before this. In the days leading up to this.

[Marc Maron]

About what?

[Bowen Yang]

I was just like, I'm so excited to do this. And your episodes are so great with him and isn't he the best? And they were like, he's the best. And just, just lots of feelings of love and joy and warmth towards you. And so we're, we're there as a resource for you if you ever need.

[Marc Maron]

Thank you.

[Bowen Yang]

Off the press schedule. You want, like validation? We will be. You can avail yourself.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, well, that's what, like, that's one thing I realized too about, you know, guys who are just people who operate at the level you're operating at within show business. I think that whatever my anxiety or whatever I experience, I think it's some sort of self protection of me getting there.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That because like there was. It's clearly no way. It's taken me a long time to frame that, like even the SNL experience or whatever. It's like I wasn't ready for that. I mean, if you're not ready for something, and you get an opportunity, you're just gonna break apart.

[Bowen Yang]

I. I don't know that I'm ever. I don't. I've never thought I'm ready for anything.

[Marc Maron]

Okay, so how's it. The entry into it?

[Bowen Yang]

Crazy.

[Marc Maron]

Right?

[Bowen Yang]

Crazy.

[Marc Maron]

Right?

[Bowen Yang]

I mean, like, me getting SNL, at least. @ least getting moved to cast. Yeah. From the writers, from the writing job was, I think. I think, the craziest experience I've ever had.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And just probably traumatizing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

But, yeah. I think it sounds like what you're arriving at, though, this week, doing Seth last night.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Is like, you were talking about this. It's like, oh, I've been in that room.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, sure.

[Bowen Yang]

From, like, like, sure. Like, I've been in that room so many times in my life.

[Marc Maron]

But also not the, The. The. The panic of overthinking it.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like, I've gotta, You know, this has gotta. What if this doesn't. You know?

[Bowen Yang]

I know. And I wasn't. And can I tell you, I was not overthinking this. Even though I was telling. I was telling Sarah. I was like, I don't think I've ever been more nervous for something.

[Marc Maron]

Come on.

[Bowen Yang]

No. Oh, stop.

[Marc Maron]

What are you talking about?

[Bowen Yang]

I, I. This is. This is. And you're good at deflecting this kind of thing, but, like, I think this is. It's. It's. It's so cool.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. It's. It's funny because I always assume I'm more nervous than the guest.

[Bowen Yang]

Interesting. Really?

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah. But I. I feel like we're peers, you know? But, like, if I'm sitting across from. If, if certain guests don't disarm me along with me disarming them. Yeah. It's like, you know, you're sitting across from Jessica Chastain, and I'm like, oh, my God, look at her. What am I gonna do? Right? So there. It's. I'm not. It's not debilitating or I think I can't do it, but I'm like, all right, is this a person?

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. Well, well, like. But. And yet, where does your ability to disarm come from? If you're like. Like, how is that? I don't know. How do you. I don't know how you square that with, like, your own.

[Marc Maron]

I approach him as a person.

[Bowen Yang]

Okay, great.

[Marc Maron]

Unless I'm overwhelmed with fanness.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And that's only happened a couple times. And you can hear it.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I'm just sort of like, oh, my God. So you're you know, like. Like Anne Hathaway.

[Bowen Yang]

What?

[Marc Maron]

Are you kidding me?

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. Oh. But I. I think the way that you and I were introduced was actually quite nice and organic and lovely. It was like. It was like Lily. It was Lily Gladstone being like. We were all in Vancouver.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And she had just. I think she had just hung out with you or something. Yeah, something.

[Marc Maron]

She said you were doing a movie with her.

[Bowen Yang]

With her, and she was like, you know, like Bo and Mark.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Like, okay, let's do it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And I feel like that was. That's the perfect kind of landing for me as a fan.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

So that you can receive me in a way that is not, like a little bit, like, shields up, like, oh, who is this guy?

[Marc Maron]

No, I know who you are. Isn't Lily great?

[Bowen Yang]

The best. I mean, she. So her and I, our thing is that we are star siblings. Because the craziest thing that I've ever heard from someone in terms of, like, a cosmic sort of, like, spiritual connection, that she was like, no, you're my. You're my star sibling. You're my star brother. I was like, what does that mean? And she was like. My mother was pregnant with a son named August before me and did not come to term. And so, you know, it was this. It was this thing that she mourned her whole life. And then one day, years later, she sees you on snl and we're watching SNL together.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And she goes, that's him. She goes, that's August. That's. That's like. Lily, that's your brother.

[Marc Maron]

What?

[Bowen Yang]

And that was like. That was the first thing. That was the first thing Lily told me.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my God.

[Bowen Yang]

Betty Gladstone.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

What a. What a fucking legend. But. Yeah, but, like. But, like, no, Lily. Lily has that energy of, like. She'll tell you something profoundly piercing in that way where you're like, well, I like. And we'll work connected for life. You know, like, she has that effect on people.

[Marc Maron]

She brings in a fully mystical element.

[Bowen Yang]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

That, you know, is not refutable.

[Bowen Yang]

No.

[Marc Maron]

Because it just is.

[Bowen Yang]

Yes. No. Yeah. It just is. You don't question it. There's no. Like, there's a reason why she's. She's had the career she's had.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Even before killers. It's like, God, she's a. Yeah. It was a legend.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I worked with her in that movie. I did that. We'll see what happens with that. But she was great. She's just like, what. What a. Like a intense and, you know, profound presence who but, like, that doesn't belie.

[Bowen Yang]

Her own, like, sense of levity. Like, she's still, she's still funny and she's like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, so I just talked to Nora.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I haven't heard, I haven't heard the whole episode yet because it just came out.

[Marc Maron]

It's interesting that over the years, the experience of Asian children, of immigrants, that they're like, it rarely takes a different path. I know, but hers was easier than most.

[Bowen Yang]

Right. Well, Wally, Wally's great.

[Marc Maron]

What? Her dad. Oh, you know him?

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, well, I've met him only a handful of times, but, like, on the show that we did on Nor From Queensland, semi autobiographical. Like, I, I, I see her father and her family through BD Wong's portrayal of him anyway. But he's. No, but, like, she seemed like he.

[Marc Maron]

Was really kind of integrated and kind of liked weird, interesting music.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. Yeah. And like, he hung out at Barney's Beanery. Like, he's like, he's, he's that kind of Asian. Like, I didn't have that at all.

[Marc Maron]

Where'd you grow up, though?

[Bowen Yang]

Oh, I grew up. So I was born in Brisbane and then we moved to Brisbane's, like, the.

[Marc Maron]

Worst part of Australia.

[Bowen Yang]

Oh, stop. I mean, it's, it's like, it's like.

[Marc Maron]

San D, I guess, man. But when I was, like, when I went there and I did a few shows. Yeah, I had Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney, the Brisbane gig. People were like, why? They were like, it's, it's the most righty kind of conservative. So I think. And you're not enjoying the beach there? All I know is I got there and they had to move me to the smaller venue.

[Bowen Yang]

Oh, okay. Brisbane sucks. Brisbane. I don't know. I have no emotional connection there. Yeah, we moved when I was six months. As soon as I was cleared to fly. Like, we, like my parents.

[Marc Maron]

How'd they end up in Australia?

[Bowen Yang]

My dad was getting his doctorate in mining explosives engineering.

[Marc Maron]

Pretty specific.

[Bowen Yang]

Pretty specific.

[Marc Maron]

Was that his passion growing up?

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, he loved that. No, he, I know. He's just, he's just a nerdy guy, and I think he.

[Marc Maron]

How'd they get out? What was that?

[Bowen Yang]

So they, so my parents were part of the first class of Chinese youth who were able to leave the country for, like, advanced degrees after the Cultural revolution. So, like, 85 or so.

[Marc Maron]

He, he has memories and lived through the Cultural Revolution?

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, they both, I mean, yeah, but they both do very different experiences. My mom was in. Grew up in this city called Shenyang, which is Liaoning Mukda. It's also called Mukden. A lot of Manchur. Like. Like there's some Manchurian lineage there. My dad, meanwhile, is in. Was in Inner Mongolia. We just. And we just went. Went there.

[Marc Maron]

I have no sense of any of that. I was in Beijing once.

[Bowen Yang]

Nice to do shows.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know.

[Bowen Yang]

And what was the size of the venue there?

[Marc Maron]

It was small and weird. It was for expatriates, you know, it was a show.

[Bowen Yang]

Sure, sure.

[Marc Maron]

And they had just. That spy plane had just crashed there. Oh, the American spy plane. And we were told, like, you know, to stay away from that. But like, I don't talk about the delay. Yeah, don't talk about. What are you gonna say?

[Bowen Yang]

I don't know.

[Marc Maron]

But it was kind of like, mind blowing and odd, you know, being there.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because it's like for. For me, for an American, it was like another planet.

[Bowen Yang]

Of course.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, what the fuck is happening here?

[Bowen Yang]

I know.

[Marc Maron]

And. And in like the. I became obsessed with the hutongs.

[Bowen Yang]

Like, aren't they so cool?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I love the hutong because it's the.

[Marc Maron]

Only thing that represents that in the dusty forbidden city that they don't even seem to upkeep.

[Bowen Yang]

They don't upkeep. And still it's the most crowded place you've ever.

[Marc Maron]

But it's literally dusty and shit. And they're just sort of like, we gotta do it.

[Bowen Yang]

But they don't do it.

[Marc Maron]

No, but they left it.

[Bowen Yang]

They left it.

[Marc Maron]

They could have just plowed it over.

[Bowen Yang]

I think they put more effort into like, re. Embalming Mao's body like a block away.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Embalm the forbidden city.

[Bowen Yang]

Embalm the forbidden.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, do something. So when I was there, I felt like the hutongs were some sort of honest representation of. Of how people live, sadly, at least in that city.

[Bowen Yang]

Well, I. I think it's. It's an honest representation of the way people lived. Yeah. Like, probably before Mao, Right? Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, what. How'd your dad live?

[Bowen Yang]

So my dad grew up in this mud and straw hut.

[Marc Maron]

Come on.

[Bowen Yang]

In the grasslands, in the fields. But actually it was like arid. And so they were like. The family was like subsistence farmers. And what does that entail? Just like, just. You grow what you can, like canola flowers and potatoes if the weather lets it.

[Marc Maron]

And you've got. They told you this whole history?

[Bowen Yang]

They told me the whole history. And we. So when I was. My first trip there was when I was three. I don't really remember, but that was when his parents were still living in this house.

[Marc Maron]

In the mudden straw house.

[Bowen Yang]

The mudden straw house. And this was, like, their last year there because my mom's side of the family had, like, worked it out through, like, all this, like, they, like, cut through all the bureaucratic nonsense of, like. Because it's a whole thing to move a family out of, like, provincial life in China.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Into the cities and, like, as they were developing. And so there's just all this, like, licensure and whatever the fuck. And so, like, that had to happen. And my mom's side of the family helped with that. And then, you know, we moved everyone from my dad's side of the family into the city. And, like, I honestly don't know if that was necessarily the right thing to do.

[Marc Maron]

For the grandparents.

[Bowen Yang]

For the grandparents. For, like, my dad's side, because Culture shock. Culture shock. And, like, they. I don't know, like, they were okay there. In retrospect, it seemed like they were kind of happy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And I think. I think my. I think my mom would agree, but, like, everyone's fine now. There's no, like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

There's no real hardship.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Everyone's great. It's just. This is all fresh because I came back Sunday and where were you?

[Marc Maron]

You went to Mongolia?

[Bowen Yang]

I went to Inner Mongolia. It's a misnomer because it's the province that is south of Mongolia in China. It's not technically in Mongolia.

[Marc Maron]

And you hadn't been there, but you.

[Bowen Yang]

I'd been. I'd been.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

But the last time I went was 2016, and we still went to my dad's childhood home. So we go back and it's like it's about to collapse, but we go. And it's cool. Like, he showed me, like, this time he showed me this little closet he built through the wall. It's like literally what that looks like over there.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

We're in Mark's hotel and just amazing. And.

[Marc Maron]

And there's other people living in it.

[Bowen Yang]

No, no, no one's living there. It's.

[Marc Maron]

It's a monument.

[Bowen Yang]

It's a monument to me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

This is where Bowen's father.

[Bowen Yang]

This is where Bowen's father lived.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. The little plaque, hand carved.

[Bowen Yang]

Oh, that would be fun. But we. So I posted. I posted pictures from there of me, like, standing in, like, a T shirt and shorts.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I guess I took a certain stance. Like. I don't know, I looked like I. I looked like. I just. I just looked like I was of that place or something.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I posted it to my instagram. Because I, like, worked through a firewall and then Chinese social media picked it up and then all the comments were like, not even, not even expats. It's like, people, like, people in China who. And there's a contingent there. And I texted, I even texted this to Lauren. I was like, you'll be happy to know this. There's a very spirited contingent of SNL fans who are Chinese and who love the show and whatever.

[Marc Maron]

What did Lauren say?

[Bowen Yang]

Lauren said, hilarious. The power of YouTube. Just pity. But I. So, so, so, yeah, like, so these pictures were posted and then it kind of like proliferated through Chinese social media. And then all the comments were like, oh, my God, I had no idea his family was from here. And there were clips of me speaking Mandarin and they were like, I had no idea he could speak Mandarin. And Wow. But corollary to it was I'd never come out to extended family. I never came out to anybody in China. And it's just. And it's just my parents and I and my sister who are outside, who.

[Marc Maron]

Are in the city and everyone in America who knows.

[Bowen Yang]

And. Well, yeah, everyone in America knows. I'm not worried about them. But I was. But I, like, I got a tutor in the months leading up to the trip just to be like, hey, my Chinese is fine. I don't have the vocabulary to, like, explain to them, like, what I do.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Bowen Yang]

Like, like what my work particulars are, like, what my life is like. And would that be allowed? It's. It's allowed. It's just not. And it's not like a. It's just a cultural thing where it's like, oh, like, why would you be that? You know? Yeah, because, like, coming out to my parents, like, the thing that they kept saying, my dad kept saying was, like, where I come from, this doesn't happen.

[Marc Maron]

But what, what was the issue in the corollary to.

[Bowen Yang]

The corollary is that I, like, I was not. I had never come out to anybody in the family.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And I got this tutor just in case.

[Marc Maron]

Just this last time you were there.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. This is just like the last couple.

[Marc Maron]

Months before in your history, you never came out. You were, you were found out.

[Bowen Yang]

I. So this is the, this is the found out part is like social media kind of. The Chinese social media kind of did it for me because all the comments were like, oh, my God, look at how straight he looks. Look at. Isn't that so funny? And like, they're referencing, like, sketches from SNL where, like, we've done, like, Meta takes on it where, like, I'm actually a straight person and.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Bowen Yang]

The gay thing is an act.

[Marc Maron]

Like.

[Bowen Yang]

And so, like, they, like, we're referencing that and being like, oh my God, maybe he really is straight. Ha ha.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And then over the week, like, my family, like my cousins and my uncles were like, Bowen, like, you're, you're really blowing up, like on these apps. And the comments are so entertaining. Oh, they're wondering where you're from. And like, they're, it's, it's just, wow, that must be so fun. And like, it was just always unsaid.

[Marc Maron]

Oh. So to that part of the family, the Chinese part.

[Bowen Yang]

To the Chinese part of the family.

[Marc Maron]

Who live in China. Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And they were like, we're seeing it on our, like it's on our algorithms and. Oh, it's so. This is so. This is so interesting.

[Marc Maron]

They didn't say anything.

[Bowen Yang]

They didn't say anything. But they had to have. But they're like, if they're reading through the, they're referencing the comments and half of the comments are, oh, my God, look at him, he's usually so fruity. And look at him wearing like, you know, a nice button down shirt or something. Like, it's, it was, it was really interesting. And then by the end of the trip, like, it just, it just, it didn't come up. But the only thing I can clock from this time is that, you know, in all my prior visits, they would just ask you, like, starting from like the age of 14, they'd be like, when are you getting a girlfriend? Do you have a girlfriend? Like, are you getting married? And they. And they. And no one else.

[Marc Maron]

None of that either.

[Bowen Yang]

None of that either. So they know.

[Marc Maron]

Right? But in light of the cultural sort of reaction to it, wouldn't that be a form of politeness and respect?

[Bowen Yang]

Oh, definitely. I think I'm still not quite sure how I feel about it, but I am relieved the conversation didn't have to happen because even with this tutor, like the week before the trip, she was like, okay, let's do some role play. I'm gonna be. And she was very. She lives in China, but she's like, very attuned to like, Western culture and even gay culture. Like, she, like, she gets it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And so. And I really lucked out with her, but she was like, we're gonna role play. I'm gonna be your cousins and we're gonna be at this big banquet hall table with like, you know, all your relatives, because this is just what you Know, Chinese people do.

[Marc Maron]

And you're gonna stand up and say, I'm gay.

[Bowen Yang]

You're gonna. You're gonna do, like, what a feeling from flash dance. She was like. She was like, and I'm just gonna ask you questions that they would ask. So the first thing they would ask you is like, how much money do you make? Because that. That's what's important. And I was like, okay, great. I can do that. And then. Laundry list of things. And then finally she was like, okay. And then I'm gonna ask you, like, do you have a girlfriend? And then I was like, is that when I tell them? And she goes, honestly, no. And I was like, what do you mean? She was like, I don't think you should tell them. I was like, what do you mean? Like, this whole. The whole point of this was so that I could, like, work up to telling them in Chinese, like, that this is who I am and this is how long I've known and whatever. And she was like, how long did it take for your parents to come around? I was like, oh, like 10 years. And she was like, exactly. Like, you cannot expect them to catch up to that. Like, catch up to all of this information.

[Marc Maron]

Just drop them on. Drop it on them. And then, you know, expect a reaction that's going to be positive.

[Bowen Yang]

No. No way.

[Marc Maron]

But it's. It is sort of interesting that. That, you know, they know. And I would assume, culturally, there's plenty of gay people that they know, and it's just unspoken.

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And they're probably just hoping for the best. Maybe that'll heal up.

[Bowen Yang]

Oh, interesting, right?

[Marc Maron]

I don't know. It feels to me that even a lot of straight parents who know that's the only way they can accept it just by not talking.

[Bowen Yang]

By not talking about it, as opposed.

[Marc Maron]

To saying, like, what's wrong with you? Get out of the house. Just suck it up. And maybe eventually learn how to open up or tolerate.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. My only thing. And I'm not owed this. I just thought this was, like, my one shot at, like, doing it in the first place. Because they're like, what are you doing? Get out of the house. I mean, my parents didn't kick me out, but they were like, this is crazy.

[Marc Maron]

And where were you when that happened?

[Bowen Yang]

This was in Colorado. Oh, yes. Born in Brisbane. Then we moved to Ontario and then Montreal, and then.

[Marc Maron]

So what's your citizenship?

[Bowen Yang]

Dual American, Canadian.

[Marc Maron]

That's good.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Why are you saying no?

[Bowen Yang]

No, I'm like. I'm like, yeah, like, oh, you're saying.

[Marc Maron]

Like, don't be jealous of me. No, I know.

[Bowen Yang]

I'm just like. I'm like. I'm just saying, like, I'm very. I can leave. I'm. I'm good. Like, I feel good about that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

But I'm just thinking about, like, the collective mood of, like, what it means to, like, have both.

[Marc Maron]

And I'm lucky to have an exit strategy that is, you know, in paperwork.

[Bowen Yang]

Right. That you find the papers first.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, well, I used to do a bit about that. Like, about applying for Canadian permanent residency status because, you know, I don't want to be the. The. The Jew at the border without his papers when it goes down, you know, I don't want to be standing there holding a stack of scripts that I wrote that'll.

[Bowen Yang]

There's an exchange rate for that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I'm sure. So it didn't. You didn't come out. You. You were.

[Bowen Yang]

I was found out. Like, my parents found out and then that. So, like, that was not on my terms.

[Marc Maron]

But at this point, your father's established. He's working, you know, he's. He's. He's living the immigrant life to his full potential.

[Bowen Yang]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And he believes that, you know, like, if you do what I do, you can be a success.

[Bowen Yang]

Yes. Like, the. The sort of crazy, insane blemish on that dream is like, oh, having a gay son, like that is. And there's some cultural significance to him being the eldest of his brothers and that the son of the eldest brother, even though you're the king. Well, that I, like, have to. There's this meaningful lineage that I have to sort of uphold as the son of the. Like, I don't understand really how it works. Like, it's all.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I can say.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

As.

[Marc Maron]

As a Westernized person, it's not tribal. It's. It's like.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. I don't know what it is.

[Marc Maron]

It's not cast, but it. It's.

[Bowen Yang]

It's filial.

[Marc Maron]

Traditional, you know, kind of structures.

[Bowen Yang]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Ancient structures.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Hegemony.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Something.

[Bowen Yang]

Neither of us are.

[Marc Maron]

Anthropologist.

[Bowen Yang]

Anthropologist.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But so what happens?

[Bowen Yang]

So what happens? Well, I mean, you know, it all worked out.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And part have to, because at some point you're like, it's got to work out. It's going to work out. Even if it doesn't work out, you got to live your life. Unless you're fragile and, you know, collapse into yourself and fucking disappear.

[Bowen Yang]

Which kind of happened. It happened during this whole, like, crash out with the Wellbutrin. Yeah. But anyway, I.

[Marc Maron]

Different reason different reason. So, so. But what does happen when you, when they find out?

[Bowen Yang]

Well, Dad's an engineer, mom used to be a doctor. They are solutions oriented people. And so.

[Marc Maron]

But they're also humanists.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, well, they were like, we found this guy, this, this, this person in Colorado Springs, and we're gonna go there.

[Marc Maron]

Colorado Springs, that's the heart of it.

[Bowen Yang]

That's the heart of it.

[Marc Maron]

Focus on family.

[Bowen Yang]

Focus on the family. Megachurch central. And this was right after.

[Marc Maron]

How gay was the guy that ran that place?

[Bowen Yang]

So he was. He was not super gay at first blush. But then he, he let something slip on the last session and it was really amazing. And can I tell you, he was like. So this was like, it was only eight weeks. And the ultimatum was like, I could either stay in state and live with my parents in Denver for college or because my sister was at nyu, they were like, or if you go to conversion therapy and see this guy, you can live. You can go to NYU and live with your sister. And these poor people didn't know that it's the gayest school in the country. But I went, I acquiesced. And my dad and I would drive two hours each way to Colorado Springs. And those drives were actually like, really good bonding time for us.

[Marc Maron]

Feel like men.

[Bowen Yang]

God, I don't know. We just, we would, like, go to cast.

[Marc Maron]

Was he being overcompensated?

[Bowen Yang]

No, my dad is. I don't know what is masculine about my dad more than, like, I don't know, like these, like these, like these, these notions of masculinity in any culture are so silly.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Don't you think?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I. I don't, you know, I don't. I know that I don't, you know, abide or instinctively represent most of them, but I, I can, you know, I can. There have been moments where I get it.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But it's a pretty broad spectrum. Of course, unfortunately, the dominant spectrum now is not. Not great.

[Bowen Yang]

It's not great.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And I'll take my dad's. I'll take my dad's strain of that any day. Yeah, he's just like. He's just like.

[Marc Maron]

But the weirdest thing about the far end of the spectrum, which is dominant culturally wise, is that they're so gay.

[Bowen Yang]

They're so gay.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, I can't. When you. I mean, it's like the attention to this sort of like weird anal. Attention to their grooming and then anal.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But. But I like when I see pictures of groups of like, Young Republican men. I'm like, oh, come on.

[Bowen Yang]

I know.

[Marc Maron]

Let it go. And the fact that these guys are trying to make themselves attractive to this, you know, this fictional woman that they think is going to magically.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Or manifest as, like, these trad wives or whatever.

[Bowen Yang]

Right, right, right.

[Marc Maron]

It's like, what are you going to do with that? I mean, like, the lack of game that you can just see in all of these guys is, like, profound.

[Bowen Yang]

I know.

[Marc Maron]

Well, whatever.

[Bowen Yang]

And one thing about gay culture.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

You don't have to have any game. As long as you have the parts that someone else likes, you're good. You don't even have to have a dick. Like, it's more fun. It's a lot more fun.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I had a professor in college that, like, I was sort of like, he was sort of obsessed with me. And I kind of let that happen because I was so fascinated with gay culture at the time. It was just. It just seemed like even though I wasn't gay, I'm like, they're really having a good time. I think I used to do a bit about that. I'd say, like, I think most guys are gay if you just relax.

[Bowen Yang]

Oh.

[Marc Maron]

You know, when, when you, when you. When you hear sort of effeminate dudes talk, like, you know, hi. You know, like, you're like, if you just let yourself do things like, why wouldn't you do that all the time?

[Bowen Yang]

It's great.

[Marc Maron]

It's so relieving. You almost want to kind of cry and be happy all the time.

[Bowen Yang]

It's, it's. It's so double may care.

[Marc Maron]

In a way. It is. Yeah, it is. Just let it go, man. Just relax.

[Bowen Yang]

Just relax. That's why, I mean, like, like me, like, reading all these comments on trying to say social media about, like, how, like, usually effeminate I am. I was just kind of like, I was getting a kick. I was like, yeah. Like, it's, it's. The water's warm. Like, it's okay.

[Marc Maron]

But it's weird. Like, if I think about it, even just talking to you now, if I'm thinking out loud, it's not really effeminate. It's just a different male on the spectrum of maleness.

[Bowen Yang]

Totally.

[Marc Maron]

It's kind of. It's kind of weird because I've never seen women act like gay guys. Really? Like, you don't see a woman going, she's kind of acting like a gay dude.

[Bowen Yang]

Wait, you should do a bit about this. That's great.

[Marc Maron]

But it's true. What feminine quality is they talking about?

[Bowen Yang]

Right?

[Marc Maron]

Like, even the, the, the amplification or the, the heightening in, in drag, it's like they're not acting like women.

[Bowen Yang]

No, that is, no, that is the thing that I want to explain to people. It's like, it's not men pretending to be women. It's men doing this heightened blown out ver. It's like wrestling. It's like pro wrestling. Totally. It's just. We're pro wrestling. It's like, oh, it's a heightened version of masculinity. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's the flipped version of that.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I think that if, if there are people that say it's feminine, it's that it's because their perception of what women should be is heightened.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And that's why they're so confused and aggravated with drag. They're like, why do I feel this way?

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Because she's being the kind of woman you want to meet.

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Which isn't like a regular woman, which is.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, that's. That, that is the trad wife thing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And, and like these. And like, the incels are like, I, like I, I cut in earlier and said, oh, they want to meet this woman who's gonna reject them anyways. Because that is kind of like the operational thing. It's like, oh, they are working themselves up to be rejected, to be turned down. So then they can like, internalize this, like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Rage at just all women.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, they're total, you know, bottoms.

[Bowen Yang]

They're. Yes, yes. And I have to say, I remember, I think it was like your RuPaul episode where I was like, I think that's one of my favorite episodes.

[Marc Maron]

It was mind blowing.

[Bowen Yang]

I love that episode so much. I still think about it. But, yeah, I think my dad, even though he was really, like, brandishing a masculinity that he allegedly represented, I'm like, I don't see him as this, like, I don't know, this, like, paragon of manhood. Sure.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it was based in tradition, which. That's the most interesting thing part about it, because, you know, a doctor and an engineer, you know, you know, but I think there's two things working. Right. It's their concern for your life.

[Bowen Yang]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And then the other thing is, like, you know, the role a man's supposed to play in their traditional point of view.

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And. And those override, you know, what I'm sure is, you know, a deep love.

[Bowen Yang]

Oh, 1,000%. And like, and in the time since, like, that is, we've all arrived at that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And things are great. I just think back to the China thing. Back to, like, this recent trip. It's like, I was talking about this today in therapy. I was like. Because. Because what my tutor was also saying when she was like, all they care about really, is, like, if you're doing well and how much money you're making and. Which is. You know, that's not her opinion. She's just like, that's the real. That's the cultural observation.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Bowen Yang]

She's making. And she was like, they won't care. And I was like, okay. Interesting.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And I can't help but kind of think, is it a conditional thing? Like, would they be. Would they not be as receptive to. Would they, like, be. Would they not be as okay with me being gay if I weren't doing okay? Does that make sense?

[Marc Maron]

Oh. Oh, I see. Would they accept you?

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

If they. If they could hang your lack of success on you being.

[Bowen Yang]

Exactly. And my. And I. I don't wanna. I don't want to, like. I don't want to bro. Like, breach that line. But, like, I think about that with my parents sometimes. I'm like, this would be so. Because. Because they kept saying. We were just. And it's in, like, in our, like, unpacking of this.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

In recent years, they were just like, we're so sorry we did that.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. They were like. And I've talked about it enough, like, in interviews and stuff. And I used to. It used to really be this red line. I was like, I don't want to talk about it anymore. But now I'm like, no, it seems like we've all really. If we've really moved past it, then it's fine. But I. But they were like, we're so sorry we did that. We were truly just so worried that your life was gonna go in a certain direction and that you would have been, like, completely. I don't know, like, just. Just not okay. Like your life was gonna fall apart. And I was like, okay, cool. So.

[Marc Maron]

And that's also a concern that I think, you know, anybody would have. That's right.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, of course.

[Marc Maron]

But they couldn't unlock that then.

[Bowen Yang]

They couldn't unlock that then. And I can't help but wonder there. But this. This sounds so shitty as a child, but I'm like, I just have to. I have this thought experiment every now and then where I'm like, well, how would it be? Would that still be the same if. If. Like, if success hadn't Come. You know what I mean?

[Marc Maron]

But you don't say that.

[Bowen Yang]

I don't say. Well, I'm saying it now on a microphone. In a microphone and a microphone in a very, very. On a podcast with a big audience.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but, but, but I don't think that's an offensive thought, but I do think it would imply that you hadn't done your side of the accepting. Oh, right.

[Bowen Yang]

Wow, you're good. You're really good. Oh, Mark Marin. Oh, cool. That's. Yeah. Interesting.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, because like, in order for this all to work is you've got to let that go and, and you know, feel the empathy for their situation.

[Bowen Yang]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

So if you were to say like, well, what if. No, no, you're still looking to, you know.

[Bowen Yang]

No. Yeah, it's not. Yeah, you're right. It's not like that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, no, no. I mean, but the thought, of course can be there. Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't serve any purpose.

[Bowen Yang]

It doesn't. And I don't even know what purpose it serves. I don't even know. I don't. I guess I don't know where I'm at with the greater family. Like the concentric circles outside of like the immediate nuclear family of my mom and my dad and my sister are like, okay, cousins and uncles and then like Chinese nationals, like people in China.

[Marc Maron]

How did it end up? I mean, you're talking about that like when.

[Bowen Yang]

Upon leaving, upon leaving, my brother in law and I were checking in and he was like, how you doing? How do you feel about this trip? And are you excited to go back to New York? And I was like, I'm really excited. He was like, okay, well, your sister is sad to go and you know, she's. Her coming back here always reminds her of when you guys would come as kids and how happy you guys were and. And seeing family is always very meaningful to her and touching her. And I was like, oh, that. I totally relate to that. I just think I associate those trips even, even now I associate those trips with being in the closet.

[Marc Maron]

Right. Oh, right.

[Bowen Yang]

Because I, because it was always. It was like, especially like once I was a teenager and when we would go back, it was always about like white lying and kind of covering. And I remember like my favorite cousin when I was like 14, like I overheard him in another room going to my mom and my sister. Like Bowen kind of talks like a girl, doesn't he? And it like it crushed me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And then I was like, oh, well then like, like the jig is up and it's and like, it's. It's over. Like, it's curtains for me. And, like, it's like, it's like I can't uphold this lie anymore. And even still, you have PTSD from. Yeah. And so, like, I don't have the same sort of, like, unabashed, like, joy about going back there the way that my sister does, I guess.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Bowen Yang]

And she was. And she had to, like, handle, like, three kids, like three toddlers. She was stressed the fuck out. And Yang, if you're listening, I love you. I can't believe you. You managed that trip like that. Yeah, I thought you were. I thought you were miserable the whole time. It turns out she loved it. I. And it's not that I was miserable. I was just like, I was. I understood something about those trips in total of just like, oh, these were. These were. These became very stressful for me at a certain point. And maybe it's. Maybe the stress is gone now. Like. Like the Internet in China kind of did something for me. But also, maybe it didn't. I don't know.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean, that kind of stuff is hard, you know, in terms of, like, I can barely go to the Comedy Cellar because I struggled so hard there when I was younger that, like, I just. It's just sort of like it all comes back. I mean, that's. That's the problem, I guess, with PTSD on some level, is that, you know, it re. Triggers it. So, you know, you go to the place.

[Bowen Yang]

Yep.

[Marc Maron]

And you regress.

[Bowen Yang]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And you can feel that old you, you know, kind of taking hold. And the feelings are real. What are you going to do?

[Bowen Yang]

And then is the. In the invert, the inverse of that? Like, you going to, like, the Seth Studio? I mean, like. Oh, like, this is where.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean, like, I go to the Comedy Store. And I think my problem is, is that I. I can't always see who I am in the world that I exist in or my skill set. There's just something about, like. It's like when you go, you know, haven't seen your parents in a long time, and all of a sudden you're 12 again.

[Bowen Yang]

Yep, yep.

[Marc Maron]

And acting like that. Yeah, there's some that happens, and I have to rise above that, you know, and just do a good set or whatever.

[Bowen Yang]

And you do. And. Yeah, you do that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But. But the question I think that we're both asking is, like, is it necessary to do that? I think it might be.

[Bowen Yang]

I think if you're. I think if you're aware, if you're aware if you're like, yeah. If you're, if you've done the work on yourself as a person, like, it's not that you should or could or won't or would. It's like you just do it.

[Marc Maron]

I think what's similar about it is that you were, you know, in that time and, you know, and just as a younger comic too, you're not who you are yet. I mean, and that, and that's just part of, you know, if you were gifted with, you know, the support necessary from an early age to sort of own yourself and have the freedom to do that, good for you. And go fuck yourself.

[Bowen Yang]

I can't. I don't. I've never met a single comedian who's.

[Marc Maron]

Who'S like, comes from, you know. I think you probably met more in sketch than you would in stand up.

[Bowen Yang]

Oh.

[Marc Maron]

Maybe because sketch is so collaborative that you, you kind of need to function with other people and have a little bit of an open heart to the experience.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Whereas with stand up, it's just me and, you know, I'm well guarded and, you know, I'm here to shield myself and make and entertain you with that.

[Bowen Yang]

But that's, that sounds so, that sounds so, I don't know, like, it's just.

[Marc Maron]

My point of view. Yeah. Well, no, yeah, it is. To be up there with your sword and armor.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, why not? I, I, I always am jealous of the standups who end up at snl.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Just who just have.

[Marc Maron]

They're one that can work with other people.

[Bowen Yang]

The ones that can work with other people. And then like, Sarah's a perfect example of that. I'm like, oh, you, you've, like, you're good. Like, you, you know how to work with other, other people. You know, she, I mean, she'll say that there was a learning curve, sure. But like, she's got that down.

[Marc Maron]

I think what's great about her is that, you know, despite her journey into, you know, extreme self expression, I think fundamentally she's like a, you know, a Jewish entertainer.

[Bowen Yang]

She is. Borscht belt.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

But she's like, but, and yet she's like, she's just, I think she's so many different intersections of things.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. It's kind of crazy, right?

[Bowen Yang]

She's Fran Drescher. She's also like, I don't know, Phyllis Diller.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. She's like Sharon Finley.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. She carries like, she has, she has it all in her. I, I don't know, shiny person. Shiny. I'm obsessed with her.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it's hard not to be. Yeah. Because there's just so much like she's getting away with something and integrating a, A, A type of creativity into mainstream entertainment that that rarely happens.

[Bowen Yang]

It never happens.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And I'm just, I'm proud of her.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, me too. So wait, tell me about the trauma of conversion therapy though.

[Bowen Yang]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

Because, like, I mean, you were self aware enough, but you seem pretty grounded in yourself. I imagine that you weren't only because you couldn't be honest about who you were, but it seems like the foundation of your emotional existence was pretty solid.

[Bowen Yang]

I don't know, I, I still have this thing now where I'm like, oh, is, is the mirror, like, how many more. How many missing pieces are there? Like, because it was shattered at a certain point.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Bowen Yang]

And like, it's been like, slow work to like, sure, put it back.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I, I definitely get that. And there's some pieces you're like, kind of glad that one's gone, but I.

[Bowen Yang]

Don'T know what the pieces are. Yeah, I don't know what those. I don't know what the missing. I don't. I've not taken full inventory.

[Marc Maron]

How old are you?

[Bowen Yang]

34.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, you got time.

[Bowen Yang]

Really? I don't think so, Mark.

[Marc Maron]

It has to happen now.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, or, or maybe it's like, it's like when your bone density starts to go, it's like. I think it's irreversible.

[Marc Maron]

Well, you mean you can never find the missing. Yeah, maybe you just have to accept it.

[Bowen Yang]

You just have to accept it. Oh, to answer your question, how gay was. How gay was the conversion therapist? You know, he let it slip by the end. Well, first, his first thing that he asked me was, do you want this to be a secular experience or a Christ centered experience? And I was like, well, the fact that you're, it's like, it's this the most insane illusion of choice I've ever heard. Well, if I say secular, I know you're gonna come at it from like, like the back, like the back end programming of that is. Is gonna be God, Jesus and everything else. So I said secular, but I was like, the entire time it was like, you, you're, you're a kook.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, that is kind of funny because he was really just assessing, you know, what his angle was.

[Bowen Yang]

Exactly, exactly.

[Marc Maron]

And they probably have it by rote.

[Bowen Yang]

They have it by road because they're.

[Marc Maron]

Dealing with, with fundamentally lost people in a way.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's so predatory and weird.

[Bowen Yang]

I mean, I just, I, I feel for, like, I guess I'm lucky, quote, unquote. That was, like, 17. I feel for the people who, like, are younger. Are older.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Well, I mean. And younger, I guess. I think I'm. I was right in that. Goldilocks, though.

[Marc Maron]

People that have to hang up their chaps.

[Bowen Yang]

You're talking about the younger people. No, I. The people who have to hang up their chaps.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And there's this thing happening now, I guess, where, like, people are, like. It's like, people who, like. I don't know, it's people who, like, go back in the closet.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I think that's fear. And I think that in light of what we're going through culturally, that I always wonder about that, especially with the gay community that has had to sort of define themselves in a way that other communities really haven't, through their sexuality and through their choices in order to maintain strength and identity and culture that I. I wonder how many people are just sort of like. That's just easier to shut up.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. And not to go all, like, pronatal. But I feel like the fact that queer people don't have something necessarily, like, intrinsically built in, in terms of, like, an old, like, connecting with, like, an older generation.

[Marc Maron]

Yes.

[Bowen Yang]

Means that it's just. It's just harder to, like, get the connective tissue.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, because all those old Stonewall guys are really old. Or dead.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. And. And, like, everyone. And, like, the people who died during AIDS are dead, obviously. And, like, it's just. It's hard to, like, as a gay person now. It's like, you. You have to seek it out. Like, you. You can't. Like, no one. There's no brochure. There's no, like.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I remember seeing a sketch at the Aspen Comedy Festival. It must have been in the 90s, and it was the best thing I ever saw. And I don't even know what happened to John Ri. Do you know John Ri?

[Bowen Yang]

Oh, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Is he around?

[Bowen Yang]

I didn't. He wasn't. Isn't he, like, one of Tina's guys now, maybe?

[Marc Maron]

That sounds right.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But he did a sketch at the. At the Aspen Comedy Festival, and the sketch was. It was this generational gay couple sketch. You had this younger sort of, you know, Dockers wearing khaki, you know, passing, you know, kind of new, conservative, ish gay couple, you know, maintaining appearances, and they invite this older couple over dinner, and they show up, you know, full leather, you know, just, you know, kind of, like, dancing around. Yeah. And the culture clash between the two generations Was hilarious.

[Bowen Yang]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And very specific. And I think it's sort of what we're talking about.

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

But you're good with your parents. And the trauma from the conversion therapy did not stick because you have a sense of humor. But you must have known, you know, two days in, you're like, this isn't going to work.

[Bowen Yang]

I knew two days and it wasn't going to work. Although this. I mean, going to nyu, I did go back in closet for a year, and it was just. Just as like a. Just as like a. A little. An experiment. And I was like, I'm gonna re. If I'm gonna. If everyone reinvents themselves in college anyway, yeah, I think perfect place to do it in New York City.

[Marc Maron]

So I tried not for that one.

[Bowen Yang]

I genuinely had feelings for a girl. Like, I think I'm a Kinsey 4 McKinsey scales, like, 0 to 5.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

So I'm like. I'm like, yeah, no, yeah, I can do it. My voice tracks.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I. Anyway, it was. It was one year of being back in the closet, and then as soon as my sister moved out, moved from New York City, I, like, told everybody on the improv team, I was like, I'm gay. Let's go. I think, like, Rachel Bloom was one of, like, the first people I ever came out to.

[Marc Maron]

She's the right one.

[Bowen Yang]

She's the right one.

[Marc Maron]

And.

[Bowen Yang]

But yeah, the conversion therapist just, like, he, like, was telling. He was. He, like, went into this anecdote about one of his quote, unquote, like, past patients about, like, his car breaking down in San Bernardino, and he had to go into a Denny's. And then the waiter was making eyes at him. And then in the middle of the story, this guy, my therapist, like, switches pronouns from he to I without realizing, and he caught himself. And I was like, that was about you. You fucked that waiter. And this ha. And this was like, allegedly, like, a couple years ago. So it's like, it's. He. So that was like. That was the last session and the session before that. My dad was like, can you give us, like, referrals for people who do this in New York? He's about to go to school in New York, and this guy's like, yeah, sure, I'll come. I'll come back.

[Marc Maron]

I have the waiter's number.

[Bowen Yang]

I have the waiter's number. Oh, God. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But you're okay?

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, I guess.

[Marc Maron]

But do you feel like. I mean, there is sort of this, you know, it is, you know, kind of frightening, you know, culturally, but there Is this. I imagine the pressure, you know, once you reach, you know, some level of gay icon status is maybe different now. Do you feel kind of.

[Bowen Yang]

Me?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Do you feel responsibility?

[Bowen Yang]

Not really.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, good.

[Bowen Yang]

I don't.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know, because I. I don't know how, you know, these. These communities of. Of people that are vulnerable to the type of. Of, you know, violence or. Or persecution, just, you know, on a cultural level. And you're two of them.

[Bowen Yang]

Oh. Oh, interesting.

[Marc Maron]

You know, that, you know, I don't know if there's a conversation there. You know, I. Yeah, I just. Because, you know, I just know as a liberal person, you know, who speaks from that point of view, you know, there is a nervousness to it.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. You're talking about. You're talking about in terms of the way that you present yourself.

[Marc Maron]

Well, just in terms of, like, you know, because they're so fucking loud and their big, you know, passion for freedom of speech just meant to be able to say, shut the up.

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

With more confidence or just a slur.

[Bowen Yang]

That they like or.

[Marc Maron]

Sure, yeah. It's all the same to diminish the voice of others out of intolerance and fear that, you know, you can internalize that and just be like, you know, what do I need to hassle for? You know what I mean?

[Bowen Yang]

What do I. I'll tell you what I internalize in terms of, like. Like, the way that I, like, am perceived that I'm like, okay, so perfect and perfect example with this old Chinese social media thing. They're like, oh, but he's gay. And, like, on, by and large, we're like, ambivalent about that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And then in terms of gay people, they're like, oh, but he's Asian. And. And. And they're. And there's no, like. There's no, like, I don't know, like, there's no glorifying Asian ness in the gay community necessarily. Right.

[Marc Maron]

So, like, either way, get the same fetishization that you get in the straight community. Are you jealous?

[Bowen Yang]

Aren't you jealous of my. My Asian figure?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I don't know. My live Asian ness. It doesn't. It doesn't play. I mean, to some people it does. There are fetishists for everything.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Bowen Yang]

But I. Yeah, maybe that's like. It's. It's so, like, mutually deleterious in a way that I'm like, okay, I, like, I don't have to worry about this.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I really generally don't care.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, good.

[Bowen Yang]

And I think people. I think. I think I'm like, just the right amount of disliked.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And just the right amount of, like, now. Well, we don't really care for, like, we don't care about him or what he says.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think that's. I think that's good if you can, you know, hold that space in that, you know, the hate isn't so profound that, you know, it makes you, you know, frightened or sad.

[Bowen Yang]

No.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, that's good.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So you can just kind of do what you do and, you know, you got your space and. Yeah. All right.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I'm just gonna be me finally.

[Bowen Yang]

When? We'll see. We'll see what that's like. It seems like we're both. I think. I think you are in this because of the. Because this week is so. It's so big.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I think.

[Bowen Yang]

I think. I appreciate that you're sort of imparting this on me.

[Marc Maron]

Huh. Okay.

[Bowen Yang]

I. I feel like. I feel like that's where. Kind of where you're at.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. There is something happening.

[Bowen Yang]

I love it.

[Marc Maron]

That has to do with a lot of things, you know, age being one of them. But, you know, because you do get this point, it's like, dude, how long are you going to do this to yourself?

[Bowen Yang]

Uhhuh.

[Marc Maron]

You know, like, time's running out, buddy. Yeah. You know, you better just, you know, because it's all fear. Right. Really?

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

So, like, what are you afraid of? And if you really track that stuff, it's like, well, when I was seven, you know? All right, so now you're 61. Maybe you can give that kid a break.

[Bowen Yang]

Totally. You totally can.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I don't think you need the Lexapro.

[Marc Maron]

Good. I've been pushing back against that for long. I'm on some other stuff that I don't think is working, but the doctor told me I probably wouldn't. I'm on this busporin for anxiety.

[Bowen Yang]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

And. Which is a more specific kind of dopamine reuptake thing, but it's not a total ssri. And he literally said to me, he said, this usually doesn't work for people. I'm like, that sounds like the perfect medicine for me. So if I think it's working, then that's great, and if it's not working, then, you know, not so good. But whatever. I'm familiar with that.

[Bowen Yang]

It's like a meta placebo. That's awesome.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, can be. Exactly. You could go either way.

[Bowen Yang]

Low efficacy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. So what. So how's it at SNL now? Everything good?

[Bowen Yang]

I think so I mean, I hope we're on the air.

[Marc Maron]

Why wouldn't you be? After this Colbert shit, you're at NBC.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, you're right. There's no. But, like, if they decide to merge out of nowhere.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Well, could happen to anybody, I guess.

[Bowen Yang]

True.

[Marc Maron]

But it does seem like, you know, it's in this current media landscape that it doesn't seem like SNL has to make an effort to create a clip economy. Like, it's the show designed for that.

[Bowen Yang]

Totally. There's no. Yeah. It doesn't have to change anything about itself. But, you know, I was. God, I was. I got dinner with her with fantastic writer Will Steven.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And we were talking about this. We were like, okay, like, what's the vibe gonna be going back? And, like, when we were both just talking about. We were talking about James Austin Johnson, we were like, should he be worried at all? Like, just. All it takes is for Trump to say one thing, one thing about him.

[Marc Maron]

Well, you just gotta, you know, kind of get some fortitude.

[Bowen Yang]

Sure. I just. I just think that guy is sweet, guys. I just. The most talented. He's one of the best to ever do it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

He doesn't get that credit enough. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think he should. I think he should be able to spread his wings and do whatever he wants on that show.

[Marc Maron]

But James is like, his story is tremendous.

[Bowen Yang]

It's tremendous.

[Marc Maron]

That's a great Christian entertainment. He's so. He's so grounded in something that is, you know, truly his. That came out of struggle.

[Bowen Yang]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Right. Same with you.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, when you gotta really fight for your autonomy from, you know, from Colorado Springs. Yeah. Dogmatic restrictions. It's, you know, when you finally win that fight, you're like, oh, my God, be the best.

[Bowen Yang]

He's just. He can, like, he's a gorgeous singer.

[Marc Maron]

The Dylan thing is the best.

[Bowen Yang]

The Dylan thing is the best. He's such a good actor. Just on. Just like, on a baseline level and.

[Marc Maron]

The way he improvises within Trump, you know, on the. When on the old videos, he used.

[Bowen Yang]

To do just walking on the sidewalk.

[Marc Maron]

It's crazy. It's just so crazy, because you could tell, it's like it was just generating.

[Bowen Yang]

He's in the pocket.

[Marc Maron]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

So anyway, we were just like. We're just talking about him. It's like. Anyway, we're not. I don't want to, like, engender any sort of fear on anyone's behalf, but it's just like. I just think I'm interested to see what the show will be like, like.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it seems like he's, you know, that this is weird when you have to talk about a president like this, that his form of micromanaging is being offended by, you know, comedians. Yeah, right, right, right, right. And you just don't know where it's going to land and for how long.

[Bowen Yang]

Of course.

[Marc Maron]

But you know, he had an axe to grind with Alec Baldwin that preceded.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, you're. Yeah, totally.

[Marc Maron]

You know, snl, like that guy was always up his ass for whatever reason.

[Bowen Yang]

Of course.

[Marc Maron]

And I think now it seems like he's, he's not paying a lot of attention to snl.

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Because he doesn't, because he doesn't feel.

[Bowen Yang]

Like he needs to.

[Marc Maron]

And there's not someone there that he's like, you know, fuck that guy, you know.

[Bowen Yang]

Totally.

[Marc Maron]

But also that scares me too. Like this south park thing comes out and everyone's like, yeah. And, but you know, he's not really even engaging with it and would it.

[Bowen Yang]

Be better if he wasn't? But I guess they kind of were in the beginning. But yeah. Are you saying, like it would be more interesting, if not more interesting?

[Marc Maron]

It's just that like, you know, within an authoritarian system there at some point, you know, even the ones that are more organized than his, they, they have to allow some of that.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

To keep, you know, to keep the left disillusioned. Like if you shut down everything, then you have, you know, Mao.

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

You know, he's doing it very selectively, but he also knows that he's, he's up against a lot more people and that he can't just go shooting everybody. Just. Well, not yet. They're still at Mexicans. Yeah, but eventually. But, but I, I do think that, you know, culturally, in order for America to exist in the illusion that there is some sort of two sidedness, that stuff is, is, is tolerated.

[Bowen Yang]

That's interesting. Like, you have to keep, you have.

[Marc Maron]

To like keep the illusion going.

[Bowen Yang]

You do, you have to water like the, the opposing plant.

[Marc Maron]

That's right.

[Bowen Yang]

Terrible metaphor. I don't know what that would be.

[Marc Maron]

But that's a, that's an articulation of control as well.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But like, is it like, like from what I understand about the Maoist revolution, I mean, that was, you know, you're going down, dude. Everyone gets on board or you're going to go to the camp or you're going to get killed.

[Bowen Yang]

It's.

[Marc Maron]

We're not there yet.

[Bowen Yang]

We're not there yet. But I mean, there was like, there was Like a ripple of that, like that, like, went through my body. Like when we were just, like, getting off the train station, there's like a giant mouse. I was like, okay, like, is this, Is this a. I don't know. I just, I thought that.

[Marc Maron]

I thought, like, in the first Trump term that the, the analog to that here is just his constant need for attention.

[Bowen Yang]

Right, right, right.

[Marc Maron]

It's not a, A, a, A sort of mythological power.

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

But you couldn't get out from under him because every five minutes he's saying something and it's like on your phone. Totally. And it would. It had the same impact as Stalin or Mao. Pictures everywhere. It's just like he's everywhere you look.

[Bowen Yang]

And you know what? Mao kept the hutongs. You know what I mean? He destroyed everything else, but he kept the hutongs intact.

[Marc Maron]

Right, right, right. He's nostalgic about the hutongs.

[Bowen Yang]

Nostalgic about the hutongs, and like, what is SNL if not an American? So. Wow, you're right. Thank you for. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Was that good or red?

[Bowen Yang]

I loved it.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, good. Yeah. I know. I can't say. We'll see. Time will tell.

[Bowen Yang]

I don't know.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Well, we'll refer back to this, but what, what.

[Marc Maron]

How do you manage your life now?

[Bowen Yang]

Not well, I think. Oh. I mean, compared to, compared to shooting Wicked, it's, It's much better. I mean, this past season was a lot, but it was, it was very fun.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And how do you choose other projects?

[Bowen Yang]

I don't have, like an, like a decision making apparatus. I'm just like, oh, am I free then? Great.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Like, I'll just, I'll just take what I, what I can get.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But are you doing bigger parts? Do you. Are you finding it challenging or you feel typecast or, you know, you're there to deliver that bow and magic, you're.

[Bowen Yang]

Driving SNL or just no talking about.

[Marc Maron]

Other movies and things.

[Bowen Yang]

I don't know. I wouldn't mind. I wouldn't mind just, like, doing the thing that I've been doing. I don't want to play like a sidekick anymore necessarily. So it's a lot of that stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

But I don't know, I'm just. I'm just lucky.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I'm not one of those people who has to, like, constantly push it forward.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I think, like, I'm okay just kind of like parking it somewhere and just being like, this is still good. You know what I mean?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I've been parked for 16 years and isn't it great?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it is. You know, but. But for me, like, I'm finding that, like, there are some things creatively that, you know, when you put. When you focus on the one thing and you're a creative person, and then you become sort of good at that and proficient. You know, there are things in my life that I'm like, well, I want to continue to take risks, to feel that, you know, to fulfill that other part of my, you know, desire to do something.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like music or whatever. I'm not saying I'm going to make records or anything, but there is, you know, there's still a rounding off of, I think the, The. The. The broad spectrum of my creativity that I'd like to do. Like, I'd like to figure out how to play characters, like you guys that are able to slip into characters. I, I. It's like.

[Bowen Yang]

But in what context? Like a sketch show or you just mean, like, for, like. Yeah, other movies and tv.

[Marc Maron]

There's two things that I'm too self conscious to do. One of them was singing and playing.

[Bowen Yang]

And you've done it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I've been doing it.

[Bowen Yang]

Y.

[Marc Maron]

And the other is, like, you know, immersing in, like, a wacky character.

[Bowen Yang]

That's fun. I mean, but.

[Marc Maron]

But I. To me, it's like, it's too. It's too scary because, like, the. The nervousness of occupying it and then not getting laughs. I don't know if I could handle it because there's always part of me that's sort of like, hey, it's me, man. I can do the other thing. I can do me.

[Bowen Yang]

Uhhuh.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Because I. I didn't come up and sketch and never did that.

[Bowen Yang]

Was Glow your first big acting thing?

[Marc Maron]

After Marin?

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, after Marin.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Oh, sorry. Yeah, of course. Sorry.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But that was me learning how to do it.

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, Glow was. But like, for me, a character just means, like, well, this guy's not neurotic, so turn that off, you know, and sort of occupy this other part. Like, I do have a pretty big menu of male actions.

[Bowen Yang]

It's great. Yeah, I think. I think. I think there's nothing wrong with. I think I. My menu of gay male actions is a nice buffet. It's like, I can. I'm happy at the buffet. I don't have to go to another place.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

That's just how. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe that's like. Maybe that's the totally wrong instinct to have and I should be wanting more for myself. But.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, no, but I mean, it'll come when you want it. I mean, you don't have to want it now.

[Bowen Yang]

No, you're right.

[Marc Maron]

And sometimes the opportunity will reveal itself and be like, oh, that's scary. Maybe I should do that.

[Bowen Yang]

That's great. My only. My only thing about snl, at least, is that I'm like, I can feel. And this is not. I don't want you to, like, push back on this necessarily, or, like, this is not fishing for anything. I just. I can feel the audience getting sick of me. I can feel things just kind of, like, turning.

[Marc Maron]

You want me to push back on your cry for help?

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. Is that what this is? Shit. Oh, no. I just. I can just tell. I'm like. And like you, I used to be someone who was, like, always going for the laugh. Always just desperate for it. And if it didn't happen, it was devastating. And I feel like what the great thing that SNL has done for me is just. It's kind of inoculated me from wanting it all the time.

[Marc Maron]

I did that in Stand up, where, like, I intentionally learned how to sit in the silence because I don't think that. I think that's impactful.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And that it doesn't mean it's not funny. It just means it's landing in a different way.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like, the idea of constantly going for laughs is. And I did it in this special. Like, there's literally a section where after I lay out the politics with no hope in sight, I'm like, well, I can be entertaining. I don't think that's why I got into this, but I can do it. And I just laid into that, and I'm really on this weird precipice of like, why don't you just be funny? Be more funny. Because I think I feel like I have a social responsibility to kind of go deep in myself and then also lay out my political positions. But I know how to be funny. But it's actually more work.

[Bowen Yang]

It's so much more work. It's so much more.

[Marc Maron]

And I haven't admitted that to anybody. It's like, it's easier to, you know, kind of. You be philosophical and provocative because you're not expecting the same kind of laughs. And then when you don't get them, you're like, well, that's because it's, you know. You know, it's a. It's a little much for them to take in, but to just really focus on, like, being just laugh per minute funny. That's a job, dude.

[Bowen Yang]

That's. You're so. Right. Because being philosophical is the, like, the diametric opposite of like, what other. Let's, let's say comics do, like, right. Where they're like, they, they say like a crazy shocking thing.

[Marc Maron]

Right? That's right. Yeah. To get the, that requires them to.

[Bowen Yang]

Work a little huge.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And when that works, you're like, yes. I mean, that's like. Because then, you know, you kind of blew a mind a little bit.

[Bowen Yang]

I love that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But you know, the kind of like just goofier, which you can load up pretty good and you can turn phrases that'll do the same thing, but to really, like, tell a story or do a run of jokes.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That are just laugh, you know, kind of maximized. I mean, that's pretty great feeling too.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But you realize, like, God, it'd be a whole hour of that. Is that really what I'm supposed to be doing?

[Bowen Yang]

The work and then that's the work. And that's a lot of work. Oh, that's really nice. Mark. I feel like you're also clarifying for me that I might be going about this the wrong way at snl, where it's just about, like, it's just about what's immediately gratifying to both the audience and to you as a writer, because you're just like, okay, we've only got two days to do this. Let's just load her up with, like, quick little jokes.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I can tell you breaking news. I never want to play a fucking inanimate object ever again. I never want to, like, I, I, I don't want to really go for, like, the low hanging, like, gay male fruit.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

But it's kind of what, like, sometimes I don't want to blame anybody, but it feels like it's what people sort of like, internally want me to do.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And, and I try to push back on it as much as I can. And, and if you go and find the weird stuff that's like a little more out there and like a little bit more risky or risk taking, I should say. Like, it's there. It's just like, it, I guess it just doesn't get the same kind of, like, response.

[Marc Maron]

Well, how does Lauren react to it?

[Bowen Yang]

I think Lauren just, I think Lord just wants it to be a good show for everybody, no matter what. Every episode. He, he really wants it to just be the best. He's like that kind of impresario person. He's just.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it's interesting kind of the techniques, and it does seem like it would be pressure to be the gay cast member.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And I want there to be, like. I want there to be others.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

You know, and there are, and there have been. I just. Like, other gay men would be so fun.

[Marc Maron]

But I think, like, you know, when you think about, like, hater or something, that, you know, the other techniques to comedically, like, there's, you know, like to figure out how to do slow burn stuff. You know, like, I guess it's just an applied, you know, like, to. To see a different timing to how you want to present something.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

To at least, you know, challenge that part of yourself.

[Bowen Yang]

I know. And I have it. I have it really good there. You know, I just think we still. It's still a huge cast.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And there's just. No. None of us can afford to, like, go for the slow burn stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

It's like, okay, well, this is. I'm only in two things this week, and I got to make them count.

[Marc Maron]

And there's like 10 that aren't going to be on.

[Bowen Yang]

Exactly.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, four performers that aren't going to be on this week. So this. So there's a moment where it's sort of like, well, they'll just throw that in there.

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And like, this is going to, you know, I'm in now, Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I mean, there's. There's. There's only so. So many minutes in the show.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

On top of there only being there being this many cast members, and on top of their being like, okay, well, how do you get everyone to score? And it's. It's just all these things.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I think, like, working there is. Yeah. I don't know. Well, okay.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Being back on the eighth floor this week, like, did that. Was there. Was there a regressive.

[Marc Maron]

No, no.

[Bowen Yang]

Okay, great.

[Marc Maron]

No, because, like, I love doing Conan.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And. And, you know, whatever evolved between me and Conan. The thing I realized, I think I talked about it on the. On that opening you listened to is like, I was always trying to. To do well.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It's just like, people didn't know me, and I was a lot. So when I, you know, I. When I come out with, you know, hot coming hot, people are like, who the is this guy? Yeah. So, like, I. I can forgive that. I don't. I don't have any of that going back.

[Bowen Yang]

That's great.

[Marc Maron]

I, you know, I'm always happy to be on that floor and to, you know, and I love Seth. I mean, Seth is great.

[Bowen Yang]

The best. But I Was I was even asking, like, being on that floor and, like, having, like, the SNL doors be right there.

[Marc Maron]

Like, oh, no. I mean, like, that was like, you know, three days of my life.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, and I don't care. Did I even audition in the studio? I didn't think I did because I wasn't a character guy. I think I was being, if anything, looked at for update.

[Bowen Yang]

For update.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So, like, I didn't have to go through that.

[Bowen Yang]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Marc Maron]

Like, I didn't go through the whole sort of, like, you know, on stage doing character thing.

[Bowen Yang]

Bless.

[Marc Maron]

I just had the meeting with Lauren.

[Bowen Yang]

Great.

[Marc Maron]

But, like, I can't even remember really, that. That office until I was back in it. Like, that. That wasn't the trauma. The trauma was like, you know, how did I fuck this up?

[Bowen Yang]

Right, right, right.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And you're the candy guy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

I was looking for that in my meeting.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. No, he swears it was Tootsie Rolls, and I got to believe him.

[Bowen Yang]

Oh, yeah. It might have been Tootsie Rolls.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Your reading went better than mine the first year because I auditioned enough times. The first meeting I took with him totally bombed. Didn't get it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And it's because I. I came out.

[Marc Maron]

Were you already writing there?

[Bowen Yang]

No. So. So there was one whole year between. I auditioned four times total.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And two times. The first year in 2017 made it to the Lauren meeting, and the first thing out of my mouth, I came in hot. And he was like, who the fuck is this guy? I was like, by the way, I'm Canadian too, and I speak French fluently. I grew up in Montreal. And. Oh, my God. And she was like, what? And didn't get the job. And they just called me back in a year later. And then. By then it was fine, but it was just like, I. That first. I felt the spiritual connection to you after I fucked up that meeting so, so hard.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean, when I was there, it was like, it was Lauren. And then Higgins came in, and he's, like, looming over Lauren. It was like fucking Godfather. And they're just both looking at me like, am I supposed to be exuding something? What am I? You know? And I was cocky, and I don't feel any real trauma about that shit anymore.

[Bowen Yang]

That's. I love that.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I think by virtue of realizing that I was not ready to do it, I never thought in terms of a career in show business or how to get a job, I was just a fucking, you know, monster. It's just a comic, You Know, and so there was nothing calculating in my head. Like, I had no angle.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, I was just sort of like, this is me, man. What do we. You know?

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, whatever. Whatever. Okay, good. I was. But I was asking, like, being back on a. Okay, so no, did. That was not regressive in terms of the snl. Great.

[Marc Maron]

But also talking to Lauren, I mean, and him giving me two days, that was the funniest part about it. It's like, you know, we. He had to be somewhere, and we did, like, an hour or so, and he's like, did you get what you needed or you need to come back? And I'm like, yeah, I could come back. Okay.

[Bowen Yang]

I love it.

[Marc Maron]

And I really. It really humanized him.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, he isn't. And he is. And I just an appendage of that floor, and he's been walking those hallways for, like, 40 years, you know, and he's. He's a TV producer.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And, like. And he lives there. Okay, fine. He's got a billion dollars in the house, in the Hamptons, wherever the hell it is. But. But day to day, he's never.

[Bowen Yang]

He's never missed a show, you know? Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. He's just the guy who works at that place and runs that shop. It's. It's weird. Maybe I'm.

[Bowen Yang]

It's weird, but it's also. No. And I. And I. And I. Trust me, I'm. I'm like. I'm someone who's like, lauren, you goof. But I. But you. But I think about it. I'm like, oh, it's it's also incredible. And whatever. Yeah, it's everything.

[Marc Maron]

So what. What is this award show C Signs for?

[Bowen Yang]

Oh, it's so Matt. My friend Matt Rogers and I have a podcast.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

He was the. He was the gay guy in the sketch group at nyu. I was the gay guy in the improv group. And then we became friends. We did sketch together after school, after college, I should say.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And then started this podcast. Didn't think it would go anywhere. And then it's. It's been like, the most consistent thing. And then we. We did a bit a few years ago where we just, like, had no guest on, and we were just kind of like, unveiled a list of a hundred categories and, like, 10 nominees in each one.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And then we were like, okay, well, we'll announce the winners at a later date. And just no plans to, like, actually produce anything, make anything out of it. And then we did it at Lincoln center one year because we. We Got an offer to do a slot there. We were like, what should we do? Oh, we can like pretend the awards are a thing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And then we just did that over. This is our fourth year doing it overall, but our first time doing it on tv. And so, yeah, it's just been.

[Marc Maron]

It's just a made up award show.

[Bowen Yang]

Made up award show. That's all it is.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And I guess, last question, is there? Because one of the surprise kind of results of me doing WTF was that it really was helpful to a lot of people. Is there, is there a gay Asian contingent of your audience that is grateful to you?

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I, I feel like I, I'm really lucky in, in that gay Asian contingent does reach out.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Every now and then. And. Yeah, it's, it's. And that is really. Yeah, that's.

[Marc Maron]

And they see representation.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. I think the touching thing about the China social media moment was that they were like, wow, like, kind of crazy that like this guy, like, is on a show like snl. Like, that's pretty, that's pretty wild. Cause like, like there would be, there'd be a lot of breakdown videos where people would be like, okay, here's. Who's this, who this guy is, and here's what he's known for. And then one of the things was snl and they were like, you know, SNL has always been this wonderful sort of cross section of American comedy and different people from different walks of life coming and just different comedy disciplines arriving in it at different moments. And like, they were just like, you know, this is, this is a guy who came up in his own weird way. And I think the, the definitive thing about SNL now is that it is, it is a very. To Lauren's credit, it's a very great cross section of comedy today.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Where you have, you have club people, you have old people, you have sketch people, you have groundlings, UCB people, but you also have like TikTok comedians. You have like, like there's no, there's no discriminating thing there.

[Marc Maron]

Right. He knows how wide open the field is.

[Bowen Yang]

Exactly.

[Marc Maron]

And he's taking advantage of that.

[Bowen Yang]

I think so. And somehow we all work well together.

[Marc Maron]

That's good. And the reconciliation with Shane, was that real?

[Bowen Yang]

What are you talking about? Like, the hug?

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean, was that. Because they made a lot of hay out of that.

[Bowen Yang]

They did.

[Marc Maron]

And I just wonder what the real feelings were.

[Bowen Yang]

The real feelings are, I think, like we have nothing in common, but I think we, like, there's like a mutual sort of respect from afar.

[Marc Maron]

I think he's a funny guy.

[Bowen Yang]

Funny guy. I think the. The trauma that I was talking about in terms of being being moved to cast was like, I. I think I'm still dealing with, like, being. Being implicated in some way in this. Like, in, like, one of these, like, big national stories about cancel culture.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Like, I still. I think I'm still working through that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Because you didn't volunteer for that.

[Bowen Yang]

No. And neither did. And, like, what. What I want, like, what I just want to. What I think is important is that, like, he and I had, like, in that weekend, like, a moment of connection just. Just to be like, here. Are you okay? Because this is crazy.

[Marc Maron]

What you mean when it happened?

[Bowen Yang]

When it happened?

[Marc Maron]

Yes.

[Bowen Yang]

Like, I.

[Marc Maron]

Like when he was in the building.

[Bowen Yang]

So I. So, like, so I don't think he was. We were ever in the building at the same time, but, like, it was announced on that day. And then I.

[Marc Maron]

Like that he got fired or that.

[Bowen Yang]

The three of us, that me, Chloe, and Shane were hired. And then I, like, got up early, I went to the park, I meditated, and then I was like, okay, my whole life's about to change. Celebratory moment. And I took a nap. And then when I got up, we had the same agent.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

So when I got up, my agent calls me, and she's like, I'm so sorry. And I missed all these. I had all these missed calls. She was like, I'm so sorry. What are you talking about? Then I find out about it, and then my first instinct is my. The first thing I tell my agent is, do you have his number? Like, I need to call him.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Like, I just need to, like, check in and see, like, where. Where he is.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

So, like, there was no recon, like.

[Marc Maron]

You met him before or.

[Bowen Yang]

No, we. Not. We'd not met before.

[Marc Maron]

Oh.

[Bowen Yang]

And so the reconciliation is that, like, was. That would happen, like, on that day that it all broke. It was just like, hey, like, we're. We're two human beings. I don't know, like, I don't know you from Adam. I don't know your comedy from. From anywhere. And it's. I think he could stay the same for me. It was just like. I think these are, like, human beings.

[Marc Maron]

At the center of what was the conversation.

[Bowen Yang]

So he did not get back to me until two days later.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And speaking of awkwafina, I was on set for the show for Nora, and then, ironically, I was, like, on a set with, like, a bunch of other Asian people. You know, it was just this thing of, like, whoa. Like, everything about that moment was so weird and kismety. And, I mean, it all broke in this way. The reason it resonated was because of, like, the irony of the coincidence of the hirings. Right. And so the conversation later was, like, just. He called me back, and he was like, hey, this is crazy. How are you doing? I'm so sorry. Like, blah, blah, blah.

[Marc Maron]

It wasn't like. I was just joking.

[Bowen Yang]

No, no way. He. I have no idea what his. I still have no idea what those days were like for him. But then I was like, hey, look, like, let's, like, we can make it work.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

It's like, whatever. Like, I'm like, here for you, question mark. And I said, and I'll see you at work. Yeah, this is before they announced the firing. And I was like, I'll see you at work. And then he. I think at that point, he knew something that I did, and he kind of laughed and said, yeah, sure. And then we hung up. Because I think at that point, he had been told that he was not gonna work.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And so the fact that he's been back, like, multiple times is, like. That's, like. There was just nothing to reconcile. But I think both of us have had to, like, navigate, like, being used. Being used.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

And I think there's. There was. There was, like, a recruitment going on either side of, like, if you like this guy, then this is what you stand for.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Bowen Yang]

And if you like this guy, then this is what you stand for. I think both of us are, like, probably a little bit more dimensional than that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, totally. Usually is the case. Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it was great talking to you, pal.

[Bowen Yang]

You, too. Sorry if I was long winded.

[Marc Maron]

No, you're not.

[Bowen Yang]

Okay.

[Marc Maron]

Did you feel good about it?

[Bowen Yang]

I feel great about it.

[Marc Maron]

Good. There you go. What a great talk. What a great guy. He's up for outstanding support, Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series at the Emmys and Hang out for a minute, folks. Hey, next Monday, my guest will be Ben Stiller. And if you have a WTF plus subscription, you can go all the way Back to episode 79. That was the first time I talked to Ben on the show. It was a big deal. And this was back in 2010. Tropic Thunder, I think, is one of the best Hollywood satires ever.

[Bowen Yang]

Oh, thanks.

[Marc Maron]

And I had to watch it a couple of times and to. To really see that there are some jokes and there's some nuances in there that are Going to be lost on a lot of people.

[Bowen Yang]

Right, but.

[Marc Maron]

But nonetheless, you know, you really took on the monster that feeds you, right?

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah, for sure. But I mean, that never was an issue for me like that. That to, to, to take it to me. It's, that's actually where I've always grabbed.

[Marc Maron]

I know then Story show did that as well.

[Bowen Yang]

That's always where I've found, you know, that's the humor that I've enjoyed is the, you know, where you are able to make fun of, of this real ridiculous world and how caught up we all get in it and be able to look at, you know, ourselves and see.

[Marc Maron]

But I thought that thing did it in such a way like I didn't feel like obviously, you know, a threat to the industry is. Is decided whether that's decided upon whether or not it makes a lot of money.

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

So. So on some level, you know, you were protected there because the movie did well.

[Bowen Yang]

It did well enough. Yeah. The, you know, when you really, you know, when you break it down, I think the real chance that was taken was by the studio to make a movie that was that, you know, that big budget, a movie that was about a subject matter that historically has not really ever been successful at the box office.

[Marc Maron]

When they decided that was their decision based primarily on, you know, you being in it and Jack being in it and Downey. I mean, were they like, well, how can we lose?

[Bowen Yang]

I think no, you know, I honestly think it was a unique situation at a studio, DreamWorks. That it was not, you know, has changed in the last couple of years since then. I think it was a moment in time. I don't think that movie could get made today at that budget.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Bowen Yang]

Because everything has changed so radically in the last couple of years.

[Marc Maron]

That's episode 79 with Ben Stiller. Get that episode in every WTF episode ad free with a WTF plus subscription. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. This guitar bit here is a little sloppy, but I do think I landed on some kind of AC DC ish riff in. In the midst of it. All right, so here, here, here Boomer lives Monkey and La Fonda cat angels everywhere.