Episode 1670 - Ben Stiller

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron: Episode 1670 – Ben Stiller (August 18, 2025)

Guest: Ben Stiller
Host: Marc Maron
Main Theme: Revisiting Ben Stiller, diving into family legacy, comedy’s evolution, the making of "Severance," navigating creative processes, aging, and the changing landscape of entertainment.

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Episode Overview

Marc Maron reunites with Ben Stiller for a deeply personal, funny, and insightful conversation, reflecting on how both have changed since their first podcast encounter 15 years ago. The episode covers Stiller's acclaimed work as director and producer of "Severance," the lasting impact of his comedy career, and personal stories about family, aging, and creative anxiety. Both delve into the challenges and joys of the entertainment industry, with candid talk about the state of comedy in film, the art of acting and directing, and the transition into new creative phases.

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1. Reflections on Time, Aging, and Family Heritage

Time and Aging

• Maron and Stiller note it’s been 15 years since Ben last visited the podcast (11:01).
  • “It’s been 15 years ago. 15 years since we did this at the old house. That's crazy.” —Ben Stiller [11:01]
• Discussion of the acceleration of time with age, especially noticing it through children growing up and friends aging (12:00).
  • “My daughter’s 23.” —Ben Stiller [12:00]
  • “I gotta go look at myself. Am I not… if you look like that, everybody around you is aging horribly. I don't change at all.” —Marc Maron [12:10]

Parents and Legacy

• Both share stories of their Jewish family roots, showbiz backgrounds, and the reality of aging parents (13:30).
  • “My dad’s 86, and it’s all going away.” —Marc Maron [13:23]
  • “My dad and sister is still alive, she's 94.” —Ben Stiller [13:47]
• Stiller discusses a documentary he made about his parents, Jerry Stiller and Anne Meara, set for release on Apple in October (15:40).
  • “It's finally finished, and it's going to be coming out in October on Apple.” —Ben Stiller [15:40]
  • The documentary includes archival talk show footage, family rehearsal tapes, and intimate moments, even arguments and discussions of his mother’s drinking (16:35).
• Reflection on inheriting or rebelling against parent traits, and on supporting children in the arts (17:45).
  • “There's the stuff that you rebel against... then for me, in life, I’ve made those mistakes...” —Ben Stiller [18:09]

Notable Moment

• Stiller’s memory of his mother being a tougher audience:
  • “She just was a tougher audience, you know, so the bar was a little bit higher. … My mother would, like, love Spinal Tap. My dad… would appreciate Spinal Tap, but not really get it.” [19:30]

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2. Comedy, Validation, and the State of the Movie Industry

Comedy and Validation

• Maron highlights Stiller’s reputation for live comedy bits (e.g., at the Oscars), praising his skills while discussing the tension and preparation involved (22:27).
  • “You're one of the best physical comedians ever. … It's so natural.” —Marc Maron [22:59]
  • Detailed breakdown of the technicalities of the Oscar elevator bit and the pressure to land a joke (23:13-24:34).
• Discussion of industry awards, validation, and the shifting outlook with age.
  • “I’ve won nothing. You have to look at what are your goals. … Do you want to spend your last 20 years worrying about the stuff that you haven’t gotten?” —Ben Stiller [26:05]
  • On the ego boost of prizes and the reality of awards campaigning (26:46, 27:51).

The Decline of Movie Comedies

• Both lament the disappearance of theatrical comedies due to changing economics, rise of streaming, and risk aversion among studios (32:25–36:27).
  • “I don't think it [film comedy] exists right now.” —Ben Stiller [32:25]
  • Stiller on the shift: “There are the movies that have to make a huge amount of money … so comedy doesn’t get made unless it fits a franchise.” [32:31]
  • Reflections on how mid-budget classics like "Dog Day Afternoon" have become rare (33:35).

Notable Quote

• On the lack of new comedic movie stars:
  • “There’s a dearth of those people, but you don’t have … the chances to carry something.” —Ben Stiller [36:42]
• Maron: “Where are these movies? Where’s the whole fart movie?” [35:08]

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3. Creating "Severance": Concept, Design, and Reception

Origins and Tone

• Stiller describes being drawn to the unique tone of "Severance," and how it blends existential office comedy with sci-fi intrigue (39:04).
  • “It reminded me of these Office comedies… but then the basic idea was: what if you could just shut off your outside life when you go to work?” —Ben Stiller [39:04–39:56]
• The show's concept came largely from series creator Dan Erickson, with the central device—a memory-separating brain chip—allowing for exploration of identity, work, and trauma (40:00–41:01).

Production Design

• The show's minimalist, liminal style developed through detailed collaboration and lookbooks with references to '60s office photography and brutalist design (48:39–49:31).
  • “We put together a book, a lookbook, like a 200 page lookbook that's always growing…” —Ben Stiller [49:09]
  • The importance of environment: “The first thing I’m thinking is like, okay, the carpet. What color green is the carpet?” [50:13]

Casting and Character Work

• Adam Scott’s casting rooted in his comedic sensibility and depth (51:09).
• Patricia Arquette and her process for finding Ms. Cobel with Stiller’s close guidance (52:42–55:08).
  • “She’s the most incredible person… not precious in any way and willing to take chances.” —Ben Stiller [53:45]
  • Stiller’s contrasting directing needs depending on actor: “With Christopher Walken… I maybe have said two words of direction to him ever.” [55:08]

Fan Engagement and Pressure

• The unique intensity of the “Severance” fandom and pressure to deliver satisfying answers when making a mystery show (43:15–46:51; 72:47–75:49).
  • “I’ve never experienced anything like this where I’ve worked on something where people are so curious... watching every little detail.” —Ben Stiller [44:20]
• The joy and burden of giving an audience “just enough” (47:18, 74:03).

Notable Quotes

• On fan theories:

  • “You don’t want to answer people’s questions... You don’t want to take away the possibility… even if it might not be that for me.” —Ben Stiller [47:22]

• On ambiguity in storytelling:

  • “You have to be willing to make a choice sometimes that is gonna leave some people frustrated.” —Ben Stiller [74:11]
  • Maron: “If anyone is disappointed with an ending of a series that went on that long … they can go fuck themselves.” [74:52]

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4. Acting, Directing, and Lessons in Craft

Insights on Directing

• Stiller’s directorial style adapts to actor needs—sometimes hands-off, sometimes exploratory (56:19–57:58).
  • “If it ain't broke, don’t fix it … that’s what your job is.” —Ben Stiller [57:46]
  • Empathy for actors is integral, influenced by working with director Lynn Shelton and by his own acting experiences (85:55–88:23).

Acting Processes

• The challenge of acting in projects when the waiting outweighs the screen time, and balancing downtime on set (81:03–82:15).
  • “The idea that, like, okay, we're going to do this movie could take seven years… I don't know.” —Marc Maron [78:44]

Working with Iconic Actors

• Working relationships with Benicio Del Toro (“Dannemora”) and Robert De Niro ("Joker")—the intensity, unpredictability, and director-actor give and take (61:05–66:02).
  • “Every scene he approached, he wanted to make as interesting and as layered and as good as he could.” —Ben Stiller [62:48]
  • On De Niro’s understated directorial adjustments: “You're coming in a little hot. Remember, like, De Niro’s your boss.” —Marc Maron, recalling Todd Phillips’ direction [84:41]

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5. Personal Health, Life Changes, and Podcasting

Health Journeys

• Stiller reveals being 10 years past prostate cancer, found by an early PSA test—emphasizing the importance of regular health checks (89:26–90:26).
• Discussion about the discomfort around preventative care and the anxiety of tests, with humor.
  • “Go ahead and do the finger. Just double check it.” —Marc Maron [91:46]

Podcast as Cultural Artifact

• Maron reflects on winding down the show after 16 years, feeling satisfied but also recognizing the void and labor intensiveness.
  • “There’s this idea now… Why would you stop?... We did it. All right. We talked to everybody twice.” —Marc Maron [92:20]
  • Stiller credits Maron for creating the “longform” podcast genre: “You really did.” [92:50]
  • Both discuss how podcasts filled the space once occupied by real talk shows, but also acknowledge the splintered, sometimes destructive podcast landscape (93:08–94:19).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Stiller on his creative shift:
  “I want to make stuff that I really want to see.” [59:20]
• Regarding Severance’s fandom:
  “The audience for the show is paying such close attention… that's a great thing.” [45:38]
• On letting go of the podcast:
  “I unleashed some sort of evil on the world. You know, the possibilities of it.” —Marc Maron [93:49]
• Physical comedy and preparation:
  “You're one of the best physical comedians ever. … It's so natural.” —Marc Maron [22:59]

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Key Timestamps

• Opening banter, pandemic, aging/parents: [00:00–13:47]
• Family legacy, documentary on Jerry Stiller/Anne Meara: [13:47–16:37]
• Managing inherited flaws, children & showbiz: [17:45–19:44]
• Oscar bits & comedy process: [22:27–24:46]
• Awards, ego, validation: [26:05–27:51]
• State of comedy in film: [32:25–36:27]
• Making Severance (concept, tone, process): [39:04–47:19]
• Production and casting: [48:39–51:09]
• Directing actors (Patricia Arquette, Walken, Del Toro): [52:42–66:16]
• Acting and waiting on set: [81:03–83:55]
• Maron on ending the podcast: [92:20–94:03]

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Episode Takeaway

A warm, reflective, and deeply insightful reunion, this episode offers both a master class in creative adaptation and a meditation on time, legacy, and the continual act of reinventing oneself. Fans of Ben Stiller, "Severance," or industry wisdom will find revelations, humor, and solace in how both Maron and Stiller honestly navigate their work, their anxieties, and the ever-shifting ground of show business—and life.

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Transcript

[A]

People, this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Shifting a little money here, a little there, and hoping it all works out well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can be a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill too. You tell Progressive what you want to pay for car insurance and they'll help find you options within your budget. Try it [e-mail] and now some legal info. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Hey folks, we have a website that's powered by Squarespace, which has made life easier for us since we started using it more than a decade ago. With Squarespace's collection of cutting edge design tools, anyone can build a bespoke online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services on your site and get paid. Plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Check out squarespace.com WTF for a free trial and then use offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com WTF offer code WTF. Okay. All right, you got it. All right. Let's do the show. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the. What the Buddies? What the Nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Marin. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. How's it going, man? Women, those. What's happening? Every day is two days at least. I, you know, it's. I go through the full arc of all the emotions on any given day, some for longer than others, most of it self generated reactions to things that my brain makes up. But it's a full day, a lot of busy work, a lot of adjusting to this new time that I have in the sense of being off the road, out of the publicity mill and just kind of locking in for the long haul before I start shooting stick. But I'm all right. Are you? I guess. Been going up at the store, trying to get some new shit going. It's amazing how I give myself no real break to kind of not rest on my laurels but just kind of regroup. I just don't do it. I just get up there at a habit and some of it's coming along. To what end? I don't know. I don't know. A lot of stuff going on in my mind on a lot of levels. All right. My brain, when overloaded and full of panic and fear in terms of the world that we live in. My brain wants to just sort of bring that down to me. How can I make my little world equally as terrifying so I can feel like I have a little control over it? And there's a word for that, I think my psychiatrist said obsessional anxiety with a focus. I added that part. It has a central focus on. On only bad things. Anxiety is never a good feeling. Someone sent me an email that said, maybe you should frame your anxiety as excitement. Well, that would mean I'm excited about the worst things happening possible. And I guess I could do that. I don't know how that would change my personality. I don't know. I don't know, folks. A lot going on, and as you get older, the first thing you realize in terms of this, as you hit a certain age, that your parents can't help you anymore. If they're like mine, they really can't help because they just. Well, they're just who they are, but they're there. But you do realize at some point that it's on you. You gotta help yourself. And then in the world we live in now, you're like, wow, no one's gonna help at any level. That's a lot to manage when you've got the unresolved parent shit going on. And on top of that, the sort of the world of politics and government and police and everything else is sort of like, will anyone come to help after a certain point? Will they look, don't want to be weird. Don't want to be scary. Ben Stiller is on the show. He was actually the first really big star to come to the Garage in the first months of the podcast. It was episode 79, and it was a big deal for us at the time, obviously. He's continued to act, write and direct since then, including his work behind the camera for severance. Season 2 is nominated for Outstanding Drama Series at the Emmys. And Ben is nominated for outstanding Directing. He's here. Nice to catch up with Ben. We're all becoming old men, me and Ben. A few things that I did not I should tell you about. I will be hosting a screening of McCabe and Mrs. Miller at the American Cinema Tech at the Arrow Theater. That'll be on Saturday, 8:24 at the Arrow Theater. 7:30. McCabe and Mrs. Miller. I'll chime in a bit about it at the beginning, but it'll be nice to see a nice print of that, won't it? You can go to wtfpod.com tour for a link to that. I'll be at Largo doing a show with a couple of other comics on the 28th of this month. Again, you can go to WTF pod for a link to that. That's on Thursday the 28th. And then hopefully this link will be up as well. I'm gonna do a show with the band at Largo on September 10, and we've got some good songs. We're gonna start working on them. That's the whole idea of working with this new crew is to rehearse. And we got plans, man. We're gonna do Guilty by Randy Newman. I hope. We're gonna do Jumping at Shadows, the old Fleetwood Mac version. And stunning songs. Those two heavy. We're gonna do Can't Put yout Arm Around a Memory. Johnny Thunders Again, a little heavy. And maybe George Jones say it ain't you. So there's a lot of kind of self reflecting and sadness in this list. And we'll do a couple of happy ones. Maybe Heaven by Talking Heads. That's the plan. We'll see how that unfolds. Oh, before I forget, if there's anything you wanted to ask me, now's your chance. We'll be doing our final Ask Mark Anything bonus episodes. So send in your questions, just go to the link in the episode description of today's show and send me whatever you want to ask. Then subscribe to the full Marin to get the final Ask Mark Anything bonus episodes as they roll out in a few weeks. Okay, I think I walked you through the toe problem and I just didn't believe the doctor. And then I went to another doctor and he confirmed the first doctor's feelings that it wasn't anything I should worry about. And you gimme a week or so and I won't believe that doctor either. You know why? Because I want to be afraid. That is where I'm comfortable. Full of self flagellation, fear, shame, panic. Yeah, that's my. That's my. That's my family of origin groundwork, folks. That's my self parenting skills. You. But I. A couple of. I. I guess you know, there's some light in the midst of all this. I don't know. It's so funny, man. You know, sometimes, you know, sometimes these comedy shows that I do, I did Tripoli show last week. They're sponsored by weed company. So there's guys in the back from the weed company and they got weed. Like all kinds. I've talked about this before, but I don't think I really put it together until Kit you know, pointed it out to me how funny it was because I don't smoke. Obviously I haven't smoked in a long time. I just had, what is it, 26 years sober. But I was thinking back on it. I used to smoke, man, and back in the day I had a roommate who sold weed. And so there was weed everywhere. And just the daily weed practice. I need to get into a meditation practice. And I'm in the point with a lot of this advice I'm getting. I'm almost doing it. I'm in the I'm planning on doing it stage of doing things that are helpful to my mental well being. Almost doing it. I can stay there for a while. But back in the day, the weed was everywhere. And again, the daily practice of weed smoking and knowing there was weed in the house and knowing that the guy across the hall had the weed most of the time it was just a part of my life for a long time, weed, but it was illegal. And I remember one time in college, the dealer asked me to go across town and pick up the weed from the main guy. And it was like a pound of weed in my memory. And it was terrifying because, you know, I had to walk about a couple miles and with a backpack and pick up the weed. And, you know, I was breaking the law, right? Walking down the street with a pound of weed in my. On my body. But it was pretty exciting. And the only reason I did it was for weed. That thrill of, you know, just being transport and. And it took me a lot to. To muster up the will to do it and then to sort of figure out how I would get out of it if I got caught. Hey, it's not mine. It's for my friend. You know, that one that always works. But I guess the thrill of pulling it off and then getting a bag of weed because of it was, you know, I was a fucking outlaw, man. This fucking outlaw. And I think that part of this whole thing with, you know, getting legal weed for Kit is and then putting it in a bag and putting it in my car that she pointed out to me that, you know, you're fucking old school and you're an old timer and you're an old man. There was a time where that was pretty thrilling. And I think that's probably true. It's just sort of like, look at all this weed. Back in the day, this would have cost a fortune. I'm gonna. I'm just gonna put it in my car. And then you're driving with this weed in the car and you're like, I don't even have to worry about it. So the thrill is gone, but there is some phantom limb there that. That gets reactivated when that stuff happens. So look, Ben Stiller is here. Severance is streaming on Apple tv. Plus he has Emmy nominations this year for Outstanding Drama Series and Outstanding Directing for a Drama series. And this is me talking to be.

[B]

So.

[A]

I haven't seen you in a long time.

[B]

I know.

[A]

It's been 15 years ago. 15 years since we did this. Since we did this at the old house. That's crazy. Isn't that crazy? Dude, 15 years.

[B]

I was thinking about.

[A]

You're like one of the early guests.

[B]

I was thinking like, maybe it was like seven years ago. No.

[A]

Well, that's what happens. You enter this time zone of a certain age, which I guess we're at, where like the things behind you compressed into like. What was that last year?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, dude, it was 10 years ago. No. And I don't know, I never feel like time is flying by and when I'm in it. But now when you hit this certain age, you're like, what the fuck? Now it didn't fly by, but it's. It's gone.

[B]

Yes. It's really weird. And it definitely. I mean, it's such a strange thing. Like, when you're in the moment, you're in the moment. But then. Yeah. I look at, like, friends that I have and people that have. Watching my kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My daughter's 23.

[A]

Jesus. Well, that's. I think that's a nice reality check with kids. Cause sometimes when you don't see a friend for a few years and then you see them and you're like, holy fuck.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Dude, I gotta go look at myself. Am I not. If you look like that, everybody around.

[B]

Me is aging horribly. Right. I don't change at all.

[A]

No, of course not. Not you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've noticed, and I've talked about on stage that the relationship we have with our mirror is not right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you see pictures of yourself and you're like, oh, fuck, what's happening?

[B]

I don't understand. No, no. But it's really depressing because I look in the mirror.

[A]

Yeah. And you're like, I'm holding on.

[B]

No. Kind of. But then there are or moments where I'm like, who the.

[A]

Like, whoa. I know.

[B]

And then I think about my dad, like saying to me when he was older, like, I look at myself and I don't recognize who this person is. Cuz inside he's still like 30.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm. I'm that guy.

[A]

Yeah. Sorry about your dad.

[B]

Oh, well, thank you. I mean, it's been a while, right? It's been five years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He had a. You know, he had a. He was the best, and he had a. He lived to almost 93.

[A]

93. And he had all his wits about him.

[B]

Not all the way through, but he was, you know, he was always there, though. But the last couple years were tough. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Cause my dad's 86, and it's all going away. And when you say 93, I'm like, oh, Jesus, I hope it doesn't go away.

[B]

No, it's a real thing. And, you know, my dad's sister is still alive. His younger sister. And of the four siblings that there was of my dad, his sister Doreen, his sister Maxine, and his brother Arnie, she's the one who's still alive. She's 90 now. She's 94.

[A]

Yeah. It's a classic list of Jewish names. Yes. Arnie.

[B]

Arnie. My uncle Arnie.

[A]

Arnie, of course.

[B]

Yeah. He had a lighting fixture company in Beverly Hills.

[A]

Oh, good. Yeah.

[B]

He did well for himself. He got out of Brooklyn. He moved to Chicago, became a traveling salesman.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And married his high school sweetheart and did well.

[A]

My grandpa Jack had a hardware store and an appliance store.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Did all right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Drove a big Caddy in the hills of New Jersey. He did all right. Those guys who sold things.

[B]

No, my dad's brother was sort of like the guy who went. He moved out to la, and he moved to Beverly Hills before my dad even was successful. And my dad and mom never moved out there.

[A]

Well, you never. She. They never came out here.

[B]

My mother hated la.

[A]

So they were always in New York.

[B]

Yes. I mean, there was a period of time when they came out here to work in the 70s, and. And we'd come out with them, and I loved it. I loved it.

[A]

To be on all the shows.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. To do, like, Courtship of Eddie's Father.

[A]

Did they do, like, Merv Griffin and stuff?

[B]

They did Merv Griffin. They did, you know, like, whatever. Hollywood Squares.

[A]

Mike Douglas.

[B]

Yeah, Mike Douglas, but Mike Douglas. You'd go to Philadelphia today.

[A]

Oh, it's Philly.

[B]

He did it in Philly. And we'd all take a. A limousine down to Philadelphia. It's the best. Yeah. It was so exciting for me. I loved coming out here, but my mother never drove. Hated it out here. So they would come out when they had to work. Later on, they'd stay at The Chateau Marmont. And my dad would do King of Queens. Seinfeld. King of Queens. And my mom would stay at the Chateau with him, and she'd take a cab to the Grove and go hang out and then just be there with Jerry. And it was really sweet. I mean, they hung out together a lot.

[A]

That's so nice. Yeah. I met your mom once at some panel or something. I don't remember. But, you know, she was.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, she was a, you know, tough. She was a tough fraud.

[A]

A little scary.

[B]

Yeah, I just. I did. I've been working on this documentary about them. Oh, really? The last five years. Yeah.

[A]

Five years.

[B]

Yeah. And it's finally finished, and it's going to be coming out in October.

[A]

On what?

[B]

On Apple. It's an Apple original film already on Apple service and also in theaters, too.

[A]

Did you dig up all the old footage?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So there's a lot of Mike Douglas. There's a lot of Merv Griffin. There's a lot of Barbara Walters doing a show. Barbara Walters did a Sunday morning show called Not For Women Only.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where they would, like, have people in a studio and they'd talk about issues. So my parents are talking about a lot of real stuff in their relationship.

[A]

Did you learn anything?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Things you didn't know about?

[B]

Well, I mean, my dad also recorded a lot of their conversations. He recorded us a lot.

[A]

Like Nixon, kind of.

[B]

Well, he would do a rehearsal, like they'd rehearse for, and they'd improvise on their sketches. So they'd tape it, and then he'd keep the tape going.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So I have some arguments that they had.

[A]

Oh, those.

[B]

And discussions about, like, my mom's drinking.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yes. It's all in the documentary.

[A]

Was it triggering?

[B]

I mean, how could it not be?

[A]

I know, but were there moments where you're just like, oh, my God?

[B]

I mean, I still have those moments because I look at this thing and I'm like. It's kind of weird. Like, sometimes I don't know if it's totally healthy because I'm like. I go back and I'm, like, spending time with my parents.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know, it's like. It actually feels good.

[A]

Right. But it's the first time you're detached from it.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

You're in a safe space.

[B]

Right. And also, it's in a movie that I've made.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So in a way, like, I can control.

[A]

Oh, that's good. I'll show them.

[B]

What if I put this here Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's kind of great, too, because I feel like I did learn stuff about them, and I see them in a different context because I really do feel like I kind of understand a little bit more about how tough their. Their work dynamic could be, because they were tied to working together as a comedy team. And it was like. It was just all within the space of our apartment where they would have one room that they'd work in. After a while, they got an office on 57th Street. But a lot of it was just happening sort of like, you know, it was all, like, overlapping with our lives.

[A]

Well, it's a weird thing when you. Like, if you have difficult parents, no matter what, they do that to separate the bad things that you have in you of them from the good things, like how to manage, like, all right, well, this is not a great thing I've inherited from this person. How do I keep that under? Or, like, how do I manage that and embrace the other thing as opposed to just be pissed off.

[B]

Yeah. And also, I think when you're younger, there's the stuff that you rebel against. You say, I'm definitely not doing that. I'm not doing that. And then for me, in life, life has gone on, and I've made those mistakes, and I've kind of. Yeah, and I've done those things. And I see it from another perspective, too, having kids and seeing how, like, my attitude towards my kids, who, you know, both are wanting to. My daughter's an actress. My son's going. Studying. It's like, you know, my parents must have been thinking when I was doing it, those protective feelings, the concerns, all that stuff.

[A]

Is there any part of you that's sort of like, don't do show business?

[B]

Sure, sure.

[A]

It's like, I got lucky. I got talent. I made it. But most people don't.

[B]

Well, I think that's how my dad. I know that's how my dad felt about me going into it, but as soon as he saw that I was serious about really, like, I was just gonna do it, he was supportive and then protective.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My mother was a little bit more at arm's length with it. I don't know how to explain it. She wasn't. Not that she wasn't supportive. She just was a tougher audience, you know, so the bar was a little bit higher. And by the way, I actually sort of feel like I have a similar sensibility to my mother comedically than my father. More similarly than my father. Yeah. Like. Yeah. In terms of, like, the stuff that my Mother, like, my mother would, like, love Spinal Tap, right? My dad, I think, would appreciate Spinal Tap, but not really get it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Exactly. Because he's broader.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Bigger. Yeah.

[B]

He was from, like, the Eddie Cantor.

[A]

Genetic. Yeah.

[B]

Sort of like.

[A]

I don't get it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and he would enjoy. He wasn't, like, tough on things like that. But my mother really loved, like, the nuance of those, like, show business humor.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I just watched, what was it, Day Trippers where she played.

[B]

She's great.

[A]

She's so good in that.

[B]

Yeah, she was a good actress.

[A]

No, she's great.

[B]

Yeah. And she's in Fame, the movie Fame.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

She plays the mean English teacher.

[A]

But when she was like, it's already a problem when you have a mom that's, like, not necessarily judgmental, but slightly diminishing, you know, just in terms of whatever that is in their being that does that. But to perform for your mother and to not get the laugh or something, it must be like. That must really kind of give you some chops of some kind.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I guess so. I don't ever remember, like, really, like, performing for her.

[A]

You're not bouncing bits off her.

[B]

No, it was more like kind of when I went out in the world and started acting and doing my stuff, what she responded to.

[A]

Oh, yeah. But when she didn't respond, what did she say? Like, I don't.

[B]

It was never like a direct.

[A]

Like, I don't get it. What do you do?

[B]

It was just more like. Like, I remember when. Yeah, yeah. No, no. She'd be like, oh, yeah, yeah. That was good. That was good. Did you see, like, when I was making. This is like, first of all, like, I had the. Probably. I had a great close relationship with my mother, especially as she got older and. But she. Like, when I made. Was, I was making Secret Life of Walter Mitte.

[A]

That's a big one.

[B]

Argo had just come out and she was, like, obsessed with Argo. And she's like, oh, did you see Argo? I was like, yeah, yeah, it's really good. She's like, oh, it's so good. Or go fuck yourself. Or go.

[A]

I'm like, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like, mom, did you check out my movie? I mean, it was a subtle thing, but it would just be like, ah, why can't.

[A]

It's the worst.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, before I got. I had any visibility, my dad would say things like, hey, why don't you, you know, maybe call Bill Maher Maybe he can help you. Exactly.

[B]

Right.

[A]

No matter what you do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

No matter what you do. And Walter Mitte was a huge movie. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or she'd be like, why don't you.

[B]

Do a movie with the Coen brothers?

[A]

I mean, I would.

[B]

Happily, if they called me.

[A]

It's never enough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what did she like that you did?

[B]

She liked the stuff I did with Noah Baumbach, like, Greenberg. She really, you know, like. Or Permanent Midnight.

[A]

She liked a lot the Meyerowitz stories I just rewatched.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

That's such a fucking great movie.

[B]

Yeah, it's a good movie. Yeah.

[A]

Like, he's great.

[B]

Noah's great. And Adam's great in it.

[A]

Adam's so good in it. It's crazy. And Dustin Hoffman's great. And just the. The end of that movie where they go into the basement and they dig out that box.

[B]

I know.

[A]

It's the best.

[B]

Yeah, no, it's. It's very moving.

[A]

Oh, my God. So I have to. I have to tell you, like, I was watching the Academy Awards, and I. I talked to you about this 15 years ago.

[B]

15 years ago.

[A]

But it was. But it was a different bit. But it's so funny that the way I'm wired to receive, you know, you is like, when Conan says. Brought you up that Ben Stiller was gonna present, I was like, here we go. Now we're gonna get a laugh. I don't know what he's gonna do.

[B]

Oh, the pressure, the expectation. It was funny, though.

[A]

It was. It literally paid off. It satisfied.

[B]

I'm very happy that it worked.

[A]

I don't know how you.

[B]

Those things are so surreal, but I.

[A]

Don'T know how you do that.

[B]

Like.

[A]

Cause I. You know. And I mean, outside of whether you want to hear it or not, I think you're, like, one of the best physical comedians ever. But it's so natural. Cause it's not something that I have. Like, if I'm gonna do a physical bit, I gotta work on it.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

I mean, it seems that you can just do it. Like, the end of my last special, I mean, I had to orchestrate this sing and figure out the beats. But you gotta do that, right?

[B]

Right. Yeah, sure. I mean, those are all, like, technical things where, like, how'd you get the timing?

[A]

You had to trust a guy.

[B]

Yeah. We went through it in rehearsal, and I just basically said, you know, I've learned what the parameters of the elevator thing were. And then I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't too easy. It was like, and in rehearsal, it was too hard.

[A]

Too easy to what?

[B]

Too easy to get up, like, when the thing started going down and I, like, finally got up at the end, and I wanted to make sure that it didn't. Wasn't too easy so it didn't look, like, fake or something. But in rehearsal, they made it too hard, and I literally couldn't try to do it and couldn't. People were laughing. I was like, no, this isn't funny. I'm trying. I literally can't get up there. But it would be funny if I could almost do it and then finally get up there. So it was just like, trying to figure out the right height of. And then I had, like, did that thing where I was jumping up and down, and so I realized I needed a mini tramp, so they slid a mini tramp in there for me. So that was the thing I was most stressed about, was that I'd miss on the mini tramp and, like, you know, not come back up. Yeah. And then I just wanted to get the words out.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That was the other thing. Because you just. On those things, you just don't want to. You just don't want to screw up the words. You want to just, like, have it go smooth because, like, one little flub, kind of just because it's so short, it just throws off the whole thing.

[A]

Yeah. And it's Remembers.

[B]

Yeah. So it was just like, can I just get the words out? Will I be able to read the teleprompter without my glasses? And is the height of the elevator thing. Right. And then it just becomes like, all right. Like, right. That moment before you do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the thing. The guy puts the elevator down. You're just here, like, why am I doing this? What is my life about? Why? This doesn't even matter. Of course it doesn't matter. Yeah. Whatever. Whatever happens, happens. This is just. These are just human beings sitting in a room.

[A]

And then it's calming yourself down.

[B]

Well, just sort of like. And, like, didn't I do this, like, 20 years ago? Like, why have I not progressed any further in my career?

[A]

Well, that's definitely not true. But. Because, like, the timing of it.

[B]

No, no. I give myself credit for recognizing when they pitched me a couple of ideas, that I was like, okay, that idea seems like it's funny and simple. Because it was so simple.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That I thought, okay, this is time out. Right.

[A]

Like, you had to, like, you had to come up, and then it had to stop.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then.

[B]

Then you're also at the mercy of the technical people. Right. So you just have to trust them that they're going to do what you did in rehearsal.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

And thankfully, they were great and they did it.

[A]

It's so funny.

[B]

And then you're just so happy when it's over. Yeah, so happy when it's over.

[A]

If it lands and it landed good.

[B]

When it lands, it's great. It's great. And you come off and you're just so happy and you see people with their Oscars and then you're like, oh, they have an Oscar. And I did a bit of.

[A]

But it's done nothing.

[B]

And the person with the Oscar is like, oh, my God, you were so funny. You were so funny. Thanks.

[A]

Congrats. Yeah.

[B]

I gotta go.

[A]

Wait, you haven't gotten an Oscar yet?

[B]

Not yet.

[A]

Oh, God damn it. It's just killing you, huh?

[B]

You know, at this point, when you hit this point in your life, I've won nothing. You have to look at what are your goals? Because do you want to spend your last 20 years worrying about the stuff that, you know, you haven't gotten?

[A]

But isn't that weird, though? It's like, it's not even like, worrying about it because, like, for some reason, my timing with. I'll blame timing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I. I've got. I've gotten no prizes and. Well, I got a. Well, I got one for podcasting that was important within our medium.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

But. But there's still this thing where. And I don't do as much as you and in the big time show business, but you just. You can spend your whole life saying it doesn't matter. Like, you know, you're doing the work, but it so fucking matters.

[B]

It matters in that people, you know, it's an acknowledgement and it's an ego thing that we all would love.

[A]

Right? Yes, the ego thing.

[B]

But it's also, it's very. I think it's a very real thing that if you focus on that, I mean, that's like, you know, Tropic Thunder, whatever. It's like actors, like, getting obsessed with, you know, you can't do it. It's not something you can focus on going, like, I want that prize, so I'm gonna do this work. That's where he doesn't.

[A]

That's where you purged it. Yeah, I know.

[B]

It doesn't work at all.

[A]

Well, no, you can't. I mean, you can do the best work you can and then think it deserves an award.

[B]

Right. But then also the. Of course, there's also like all of the machinations that go behind that.

[A]

Well, that's the thing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's not, like, based on some, you know, system of merit.

[B]

Right, right. But then I look at, like, Daniel Dayloos, I'm like, yeah, of course.

[A]

But, like. But usually it's just based on, you know, our peers or the hundreds of people who we don't know in show business, you know, going through a site going, like, I didn't see that, but I like him.

[B]

Right, Exactly. Exactly. And the campaigning and what people, you know, which. Which, you know, it was funny. I was talking to Seth Rogen last night, and we were talking about having a TV show and all of the Emmy campaigning stuff and all that stuff that happens. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you have a successful show, stuff that you were not aware of, or us both having done movies for a lot of years, going, like, I never knew there was, like, this American film institute top 10. Yeah. Movies and shows luncheon that's been going on for, like, 30 years.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Cause we were never invited to. It's like, all of a sudden, like, now your show's getting recognized. Oh, wait, there's this thing and. Oh, yeah, we've been doing the. You know, Spielberg. Yeah. Been doing these things for years. It's like, oh, this is just something that was not on my calendar. Nobody.

[A]

No one told you.

[B]

It's not like anybody tells you, like, oh, this is happening, but you don't have to do it. It's just. It happens, and nobody and no one wants to be there.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, like, both. I realized that, too, about the Director's Guild. You know, like, it's a very. Like, when I talk to directors, they all kind of know each other because it's a relatively small community.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like those. Like, the Directors Guild is not 10,000 people.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

There's like, what, a few hundred of you, I think.

[B]

I'm not sure how many, but it's definitely smaller than, like, the Academy.

[A]

Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it feels like a kind of a unified bunch somehow.

[B]

Yeah. And also, I mean, honestly, the Directors Guild Awards and those things, like, those are the things that are, like, as. When it's your peers, you know, those are the things you really appreciate because it's people that you really appreciate. Sure. So even to be able to, like, hang out with those guys or to go to one of those events and talk with other directors, for me is always the most enjoyable.

[A]

It's the best.

[B]

Right? Yeah. Because I really, you know, I really love movies and. And to be Able to talk to. Like, yesterday, I also got to talk to Rob Reiner because they were doing something for Spinal Tap, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we didn't even.

[A]

Did he say this Trump. Right.

[B]

Yeah, he did not bring Trump up. He didn't. To his credit, he didn't bring Trump up.

[A]

So funny.

[B]

But I also got to, like, say to him, like, I sort of, like, got to fanboy to him because, like, this guy's made some, like, more than a lot of incredible movies.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know, and it's just sort of that appreciation for me, like, even as a kid growing up, watching movies, even my folks are in the business. I just. I really. I kind of nerd out because I didn't.

[A]

He did the Princess Bride. Yeah. And didn't he do Stand By Me?

[B]

Yeah. And he did A Few Good Men and he did Spinal Tap. I mean, he did Misery. It's like the guy has had a run. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. Yeah, he's a really good director and different genres.

[A]

And, you know, what's great about him is, like, there's no affectation. He's just a loud Jew, you know that. You can come right down to it. He's like, what?

[B]

You know, but he's so funny, like, as an actor. Meathead.

[A]

The best.

[B]

Meathead is. Right. He was like, come on, Arch. Arch, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But then in Spinal Tap, he's the best straight man.

[A]

The best.

[B]

He just sets them up, asks them the questions. They're improvising. He knows how to just not react or react.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I don't know. I really appreciate that.

[A]

Did you watch the doc with him and Albert?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty funny. Yeah.

[A]

It's a very managed situation, but it was funny. But you know what?

[B]

I'm glad somebody is giving Albert Brooks the.

[A]

It took me so long to get him, you know, I had him on, but he made me go, you know, he didn't want to come here. I don't know why he didn't want me to come to his house. Where's he doing. He got a room at that old deco kind of hotel on Santa Monica, Georgia, or something. It's a beautiful place. But he's like, meet me here. We'll do it there. And that's where it happened.

[B]

Was it fun?

[A]

It was great. It was great. He's the best.

[B]

I just watched the other day, the Albert Brooks School of Comedy.

[A]

Oh, yeah?

[B]

Yeah. At one early. The early short.

[A]

It's an album.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my God. It's like one of his earliest ones, where he walks in the room and they're doing spit takes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then the guy's talking about things that are, like, funny and things that aren't funny and like cancer. Cancer. Not funny.

[A]

Yeah, he's just so funny. But, yeah, like I put, you know, I think I'm slowly compiling a list of modern masterpieces.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Tropic Thunder is pretty high up there.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

But apparently, according to my producer, the last time you were on, we talked about that the entire show.

[B]

Okay, we did. Okay. That's how long ago Tropic Thunder was. What have you done lately?

[A]

Well, I watched it. I watched it again.

[B]

Oh, wow. Really?

[A]

Yeah. It's the fucking best.

[B]

Yeah. I'm so happy that. That it has a life. You know, I try to keep things.

[A]

Alive, you know, with people, but it does have a life.

[B]

It does. Yeah.

[A]

You kind of get feedback from it.

[B]

Yes, I do. Yeah. Which. And also a lot of it is in relation to, like, the, you know, cancel culture and, like, you couldn't make that movie.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's like a perennial sort of question.

[A]

What do you think of that, though? I mean, like, when you think of. We'll talk about the other stuff, but like, those type of. Just film comedy in general. I mean, are they even doing it?

[B]

I don't think it exists right now.

[A]

It's kind of weird, right, because no one's willing to take a chance or what? I don't know.

[B]

I don't know. I mean, I think it's just the movie economics right now is that there are the movies that are in theaters are not, you know, are movies that have to seem like they have to make a huge amount of money. Right. Like a billion dollars.

[A]

And then comedy had its day. It used to make money.

[B]

Yeah, it did. And people not going, like, I feel bad that people can't experience the fun of what we used to experience all the time, which was comedies in theaters and people laughing their asses off and just feeling that energy in the theater. No more was so exciting.

[A]

We got it. How did we get them back?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Kind of hard to land.

[B]

I think show business is in a weird place in terms of the just what streaming has done to movies. And, you know, I'm happy that movies are. The blockbuster movies are working and that people are going to theaters. But it's hard to make something that is not a blockbuster now or is not a sequel or is not a genre movie, like a horror movie that they can make for horror movies.

[A]

That's the thing. It Seems like all the creative, truly inspired people are going to horror because it's a. With the most freedom.

[B]

Yeah. And it's a genre where they can make them for a budget that would then get the money back at the theater. And it's too bad that the movies that we grew up watching in the theaters, dramas and comedies and sort of these mid budget movies that like Dog Day Afternoon and movies like that were like mainstream movies.

[A]

The best.

[B]

Yeah, the best.

[A]

That one's crazy. I hosted it at the Cinema Tech screening. Like.

[B]

Yeah, recently.

[A]

Yeah, not from last year. I brought. They were like, do you want to host a movie? And I'm like, yeah. And my first one was Dog Day.

[B]

Oh, so great.

[A]

And by coincidence, some woman who's a listener was the assistant editor on it and she had this story about having to bring the one cut that existed up to a screening room for Lumet and Pacino and she left it on the ground when she was getting into a cab and it got run over by a bus. The one print. So this day of panic, of hoping the film wasn't damaged and then not telling them, it all worked out. But what a great fucking story. The idea that that time existed. Like, you got the one print.

[B]

Yeah, the print.

[A]

Holy fuck. I know, but I wish it was more comedy. I keep thinking like the last time I. Did you watch that movie with Nicolas Cage, that the Dream scenario?

[B]

I didn't see it.

[A]

No. Oh boy, there's a fart scene in that that's worth the last 10 years of comedy. Really? Oh my God.

[B]

I had not heard about that.

[A]

Oh my God, it's the best. And then when I was watching that, just the laughs of something that simple. I was like, where are these movies? Where's the whole fart movie?

[B]

Yeah, I know, I have to believe.

[A]

And you actually mocked that in Tropic Thunder.

[B]

The fart too. I mean, I wish I knew what the answer was other than I think somebody has to make a comedy that a studio puts in theaters that does well.

[A]

And also like, they're like a lot of the. I don't know who the truly hilarious people are that have the, the, the, the gravitas to carry a movie.

[B]

Well, that's a whole other discussion, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In terms of like not having a Runway for actors to, to, to build a career in movies. Because that doesn't really exist anymore.

[A]

Right. So they can't, they don't have, they can't hold it.

[B]

Yeah. Because. Right, so then is there sort of this catch 22 where the studios Want to have a recognizable star in a movie. Yeah. So to kind of guarantee that people are gonna go. But then there hasn't been any ladder to build those stars. So it's stuck with people, like old people, old guys who think people know somehow that then they, you know, and that. That can't. That model can't last forever. It's too bad because there's so many talented people who should be in the movies and that should be big movie stars.

[A]

But I guess you're right that the business of movies doesn't exist in the same way. So they've got to find.

[B]

It's like they're not willing to take the chances on the movies that will create stars.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so you get plugged in. Maybe somebody gets plugged into a superhero movie or something like that, and then they get a career that way. But it's unfortunate because there's a dearth of those people, but you don't have.

[A]

But you're interested.

[B]

It's not like a dearth of talented actors. It's just proven actors in movies, you know, that the chance to carry something.

[A]

Well, some people are hilarious that are, you know, they're. They're movie stars that are. That are hilarious that aren't essentially comic actors. And when they do comedy, like, if Clooney does a comedy or Matt Damon, you're happy about it, but still wear the, you know, the young guns of the funny stuff.

[B]

Yeah, well, that's also the. I always feel like that's also bonus comedy. Like, it's always easy to have bonus comedy in something where you're not expecting it to necessarily be funny, but the. The humor's added in.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And then you really appreciate it.

[A]

Oh, it's the best.

[B]

Yeah. Even like on severance, I feel like it's so much less pressure because it's not a comedy. It's just.

[A]

Well, yeah, but there's some funny. There's very funny shit in it.

[B]

Yeah. But I feel like we're allowed to put that in there because there's no expectation of, like, okay, where are the laughs?

[A]

Right. And that's a load off.

[B]

Yes, it's a load off.

[A]

But that's interesting. So. But your interest in comedy in terms of projects or directing is limited, if not there at this point. Right.

[B]

There's an interest. There is. I'm just. I don't know how to figure it out really right now.

[A]

Because severance for me, not, you know, not being totally a sci fi guy and being impatient.

[B]

Sounds like the show for you.

[A]

No, my Girlfriend was. Loved it. I mean, she was, like, crazy about it. She really. She's got this dream that you could put her dog into the next season. I don't know why. She's got. Yeah, she's got this miniature bull terrier that she just thinks should be a star. But no pressure.

[B]

Let's have a meet and greet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You can zoom with the dog, but. Yeah, I watched all of it, but for me, and I appreciated it. But, like, at some point with shows like that, you know, about halfway through, I'm like, all right, let's just. Let's wrap it up. Where's this going? How long do I gotta wait? I can't figure it out. I can't figure it out.

[B]

I understand. I get that.

[A]

But I think it was great. It was beautiful. It was funny. It was like. And she said to me, interesting. She said, well, if you've never worked in a job, it's not gonna land the same way. You know?

[B]

But what's interesting to me about it is, like, I never worked in a cubicle office job ever, too. So I'm sort of fascinated with that world. Cause I never experienced it. For me, what was interesting about it, and I was excited, was when I read the pilot, I thought the tone of it was so unique.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it reminded me of these Office comedies.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It reminded me of, like, the Office or Parks and Rec or. It just had this banter.

[A]

But it wasn't written as a comedy.

[B]

It was written as, like, a weird. Like, I think there was. There were elements of humor. I think he was thinking about, like, what if the Office was in, like, this weird Twilight Zone, Right. Where people, like, were going to work and doing their thing, but they didn't know who they were or what they were doing or why they were there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so, you know, it's a little bit of this sort of like, you know, six characters in search of an author.

[A]

Sure, sure. But that's one of the. It's such a high concept that's like that. Like, Charlie Kaufman's script, where you're just sort of like, what?

[B]

Yeah. No, but the basic idea behind it was like, what if you could just shut off your outside life when you go to work? And then when you left work, you don't remember what happened, and you just go back to your life so you don't have to have the drudgery of, you know, eight hours or ten hours at work.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so that was where it came out of for Dan Erickson.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then the. The idea of like, well, how can you. Can you really deaden parts of your, you know, of your. Like, can you. Can you. Can you deaden pain? Can you mask pain? Can you forget things? If you, you know, can you.

[A]

Can you turn off your sense of self?

[B]

Yeah. And then the question is like, well, then what if you have two selves? The one that goes to work and the one which is the real one.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And can we compartmentalize like that? And then the questions in the show through the second season become like, well, who's more important than any? Or the Audi.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And yeah.

[A]

So the device of the implant was always there from day.

[B]

Yeah, from the beginning. That was what I thought was really interesting was that it's not really a sci fi show because the only sci fi part of it is the chip. Yeah, the chip is just like. We believe that there's a chip you can put in your head that could, you know, get triggered and cut off your memory from, you know, the outside world. All the guy's doing is he has a chip in his head and he goes into an elevator and he literally just goes down, Gets activated. Yeah. So there's nothing like magical happening.

[A]

So it's not sci fi because, like, come on, they can do that, man. They could do that.

[B]

Right, right. Which, by the way. Yeah. They're on their way to being able to do.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

Yeah. Neuralink and all that stuff. Right. But that's what was interesting to me was like, okay, so this is actually just like a guy going down the elevator, but he just doesn't remember who he is upstairs.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then there's also a weird sort of like, mystical kind of company. You know, history. History. And, you know, ethos that is, you.

[A]

Know, very religious, secret society kind of thing. Yeah. So who came up with that script?

[B]

That was all part of the original script. Really? Yeah, yeah. And then we kind of developed it out as we worked on the episodes to really this company lore. The idea of sort of, you know, like the company being almost a religion, you know, and that goes back to like, you know, like to Amway, you know what I mean?

[A]

Back in the day, even earlier. Yeah. You know, like, what was the one, the Kellogg's or somebody, the one that started as sort of this health food culture.

[B]

Right, right, exactly.

[A]

And then eventually became cereal or whatever. Yeah. I think they were all the early sort of business entrepreneurs were kind of hucksters on some level.

[B]

Yeah. And the question of this guy, Keir Egan, who. Who created the company, what his story around the time of the Civil war and a guy who was trying to figure out something that would help you. Dead in pain.

[A]

But so building out the secret society or religious cult or. How did that evolve? How many writers were on that thing?

[B]

It's basically a very small group. It was Dan Erickson who created the show, and then we had a couple of other guys, Mark Friedman, the first season and myself and Dan and Mark spent a lot of time talking about all of it, and it was all out of Dan's mind. But we really wanted there to be a very, very specific history that these people were taught. Because imagine if you're in this world where you don't know anything else, this corporate theology and ideology becomes everything for these innies, because they don't have any other religion or any memory of a life.

[A]

That's right. So they're blank slates when they come in.

[B]

So in a way, there is a certain amount of cult, like, you know, sort of activity going on.

[A]

And how does it feel to, like, you know, have a show where you've got an entire sort of group of, like, severance nerd, Reddit people who are trying to, like, deconstruct or read into it. Yeah, but you know the answer, right? And that, you know, like. Cause I sadly, I know that most of the time when you're writing, you're flying by the sea, you don't have answers yet. And, you know, you're, like, still working on the episode that's two after the one you're shooting, and that no one's sitting there going like, no, the goats are.

[B]

But look, it's not that on this show because there is a lot that has to be thought out all the way through. It has to be. But you're right in that the creative process is very messy, and it should be. You know what I mean? The creative process has to allow space to figure stuff out. But I've never experienced anything like this where I've worked on something where people are so curious. First of all, the people who are fans of the show, which I so appreciate, are watching every little detail.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For some reason, from the first season, they really saw.

[A]

Well, it's so sparse. I mean, like, everything is infused with meaning when, you know it is. So that the way it's shot.

[B]

Right. When very little happens, when something happens, it's very important.

[A]

From everything from, you know, the gifts that they get, you know, to, you know, to the fruit platter to whatever.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah.

[A]

And then, like, when you bring goats in, it's over. You know, people are gonna be Wondering about goats for like, you know.

[B]

And the first season, Apple was concerned about the goats. In what way they thought the goats. They were like, concerned that we were gonna have goats in the show because.

[A]

They just didn't want to deal with animals.

[B]

They were like, no. Like, maybe the goats are too weird. Like, are people gonna be able to. Like, is that gonna be too out there? What do you mean?

[A]

That's the thing.

[B]

It's just that there would be baby goats in a room. Yeah, in a room. And we were like, no, this is like what the show is. And we feel like this. And interestingly, the baby goats did become a real focal point for the first season. But yeah, like, it's. The audience for the show is paying such close attention. So you know that, by the way, that's like, what a great thing. When you make stuff, you hope that people are gonna, like, pay attention. Like, how many times have you made something and you go like, I hope the guy's not watching it like on his phone while he's watching Nick's game, You know, whatever. It's like, how can you get it?

[A]

Or watching it at all or watching it. They're like, where's it on for sure.

[B]

I mean, that's the other thing. We've all done stuff too that, like, you make it and then it kind of just goes into the ether. Because there's so much stuff out there. So I'm very aware of, like, to have an audience that's paying attention and watching is like, that's a.

[A]

Well, the type of people that like that it gravitates or that it resonates with. Like, for me, I don't know if it's cause I'm old or what. But even when, you know, we get the resolution at the end of the season, I'm the guy who's sort of like, I'm not sure I get it right. And I think that might just be my age.

[B]

Cause that's what. For me, that's what my wife is for. Cause she's the one who explains everything to me too. I've just become my parents.

[A]

It happens. What are we gonna do?

[B]

Because I'm like that too. What's interesting to me also on the show is that people get. Are focusing on different things. So people get really locked up in, like, what is the mystery of what they're doing or why they're doing it. But other people get really into the relationships. And like Mark and Helly and Helena and Gemma, they care about that too. So it's constantly kind of, like, trying to navigate all these different aspects of the show that you hope people are connecting with.

[A]

Yeah. It's amazing. It's kind of astounding how much you got in there. And I think that when you can deal with a kind of poetry that is sparse, that it must enable you to. When you decide on an element and, you know it's gonna pop because, you know, that's the whole show. It's not complicated in terms of how it's set. So if you do something that's a little cryptic, you know it's gonna be loaded.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And it can imply anything. There's a poetry to it.

[B]

Yeah. And that's the fun of it, too, because you don't. And then you don't wanna answer people's questions or give them too much feedback on what they're stipulating or postulating because you don't want to take away the possibility for them of what it might be for them. Because even if it might not be that for me, I've seen people write out theories that are like, oh, yeah, that actually could be something.

[A]

Where'd you find Trammell, though?

[B]

I'd never seen him before he came in and auditioned.

[A]

What an interesting guy.

[B]

Yeah. And it was interesting to see his character develop over the course of two seasons, too, because he really. He really has a lot of layers to what's going on in his. In his face, too, when you watch him work.

[A]

Oh, and the dancing and, like, how much of that stuff was. Did you give.

[B]

That was like, you know, I didn't know he was such a great dancer, but we had this idea to do this music dance experience. And I said, should we get a choreographer? He's like, yeah, we could get a choreographer, but I have some ideas. And then he got out and did his. He's like, oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah. You're like, yeah, we're good.

[B]

Smoothest guy ever.

[A]

But how did you sort of devise, like, what was your thinking around the. Not. Not so much the direction, but in terms of production design and all that stuff. What were you thinking when you decided on. Were you thinking, like, thx? Were you looking at sci fi stuff?

[B]

Were you, like, A little bit, but it was, like, a lot of reference points. With Jeremy Hindle, our production designer, and Jessica Lee Gagne, who's our cinematographer, we would like to see. Got a lot of photography and just look at, like, pictures by, like, guys like Lars Tunbjork, you know, and Elliot Erwitt. Even, like, stuff like 60s office photography.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah. And Then design elements from like, you know, like Russia in the 60s and like, just weird sort of brutalist style.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And we put together a book, a lookbook, like a 200 page lookbook that's always growing that Jeremy was in charge of. And we just started to go, yeah, this image, this image, this image. So we knew we had to have this main set where a lot of the show was gonna take place. And it was written as sort of an oversized room with four cubicles in the center and a slightly lower ceiling.

[A]

Because the effect of that, like, when you must have looked at the framing, that you're like, oh, my God, this is it. Because it's so bizarre.

[B]

But also we thought, okay, if this show is successful and runs for a few seasons, a lot of scenes are gonna take take place in this room. And that was a little bit daunting to me because I knew that, like, this set was sort of like the hero set.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'd never made a series before. I did Escape at Dannemora was a limited series, but I'd never done, like an open ended series.

[A]

Yeah. But also, like, Dannemora, it's a fucking prison.

[B]

It's a prison. Right. So it's reality you're just going for.

[A]

Right. Like, you know, but this. I mean, it must be.

[B]

But weirdly, this place is kind of like a prison too.

[A]

Of course. But it must be daunting to realize the weight that the actors have to carry, you know, in such a sparse thing, like these characters.

[B]

100%. But even with the set, like, the first thing I'm thinking is like, okay, the carpet. What color green is the carpet? Because whatever color green we choose, this is gonna be the color of the carpet for, like, you know, the next five seasons if the show goes. So the responsibility of those questions and making those decisions was like. I did think about that a lot. And then it was like, okay, this set is basically. It's kind of cool, low ceiling. It has some really great angles. The ceiling is really interesting. But then at the end of the day, it's the actors. It's gonna be. It's all about the actors in the show.

[A]

It's crazy. I mean, it's the best thing, I think, that Adam Scott's ever done.

[B]

He's great.

[A]

Well, I mean, it's like, there's so much depth and weirdness and, you know, shifting between things and, you know, and he's a funny guy, but, like, you know, it really. If he's funny in this, it's only because he's he's wry about. You know what I mean? But the struggle of that character. He really did a fucking great job.

[B]

Yeah. And he, to me, was always the choice for it because of what he'd done in Parks and Rec and Understanding, and I worked with him in midi. I knew that he got that sort of office humor rhythm. But then I also felt like he had a lot underneath that, too.

[A]

It's so funny to think about that at the core of this is sort of an office comedy, because it does function that way in terms of their dynamic.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But then all the other layers of things, it's. It's almost like. It's not that it's nothing, but it's sort of. It just kind of gives life to the. The coldness of. Of the rest of it.

[B]

Right. Well, it does become like. It's like a workplace. You know what I mean?

[A]

It's a workplace.

[B]

But they're in, like, maybe in hell. We don't know. But that's not, by the way, what it is.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Don't cause trouble with. People are going to be waiting for it. Like, what. How are you doing another season?

[B]

That would be like the most obvious. They're in hell. Yeah, we are. We're doing another season.

[A]

But isn't it amazing you create this canvas for people to. Because it's bordering on sci fi, that they can think anything.

[B]

Yes. I've never been in that world before. And it's amazing. It's amazing. And it's really fun. It's fun to be. Because then you're like, oh, wow. We actually, if we do this in a way that's deliberate, we can, you know, it can be really entertaining and fun to give people the freedom to have those theories.

[A]

Yeah. And Patricia Arquette, like, I mean, you work with her on Dannemora and it was like, she is so intense and such a great actress that you, like, when you cast her, you just knew that that would be the anchor of this kind of.

[B]

Yeah. You know, it was sort of like the role was to me, like, it kind of like, I thought like the more sort of like straight ahead casting would have been like someone like Tilda Swinton or something for that role, you know, because she was like kind of this very like, ice cold boss who, you know. But I also, having just worked with Patricia on Dannemora, when we started working on Severance, and she played like, sort of the opposite of that character.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I was like, I could see Patricia as this, like, kind of cold ice queen who has so she has such a weird sense of humor, too, in real life. Have you ever had her on?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Years ago.

[B]

You know, she's just so funny and.

[A]

Goofy, but also she's got that sort of, you know, that kind of, like, emotional. Just, you know, a slight emotional instability somewhere in there.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

So, like, the character who was brought up in the religion of the corporate cult.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Then starts breaking away, you know, to be able to play that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Where she, like, you know, is betrayed by the corporate cult policy. I mean, like, she's the perfect person to do that.

[B]

Yeah. She invests so much into it. You know what I mean? And she is so vulnerable. Yeah. And I don't know. I love her. I love working with her. She's the most incredible person. She's, you know, she really cares about people. She just, you know, and she's just. And then she's just like. She doesn't. She's not precious in any way. And she's willing to take chances. Because honestly, the first season on the show, we were trying to figure out her character.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, she was trying so many different things. And I think in my head, I had an idea that was my preconceived idea of what Ms. Cobell was, and she had a slightly different idea. And I kept on kind of going back and forth, well, maybe it's this or that. And to her credit, she let me kind of be a pain in the butt for a long time with her. Maybe try this or that, you know, And I don't think there was very few actors I would feel comfortable even having that. Like, I would not like, with Christopher Walken, who I love and is the sweetest guy in the world. I maybe have said two words of direction to him ever. Sure. Because he's Chris Walken. And, like, I'll say maybe, like, hey, maybe this time a little slower. Or, like, I didn't quite hear that last line. That's about it. Because I don't want to mess. And by the way, Chris Walken and Patricia Arquette are equally brilliant people. Sure. But I have a relationship with. And I know Chris because he worked with my dad back in the 80s, and he's the warmest. I go to his house and I love him. But when it comes to acting and directing him, I.

[A]

You didn't think, like, what am I.

[B]

Gonna say to Chris Walken?

[A]

Well, some directors, like, I've talked to people, like, they, like. It was kind of mind blowing to me when I talked to, I think, Walter Hill. Cause I was like, my perception of what a director does, I'm like, how much do you kind of work with the actors? He goes, I don't. I hired them because they're gonna do the job.

[B]

That's what Ridley Scott says, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like. And it's a very specific attitude that. And I can understand that because sometimes I've worked with directors who, like, as an actor who will come in and start talking, and you're like, well, you're getting in my head. What are you. You don't have to necessarily say anything to me if it's working. If it's working.

[A]

Right, Right. Yeah.

[B]

You don't have to justify the job by coming in and doing like you have to, this or that. And I think those directors who have a really healthy sense of themselves in terms of how they work know that. No, it's like the actors do their thing.

[A]

It's about the casting. You've h the guy to do a thing. Yes, but I mean. But my perception was always like, you know, you're gonna work close with the director and really hammer this out. But in my experience of being on set, it's usually like, maybe not so, you know, you're coming in a little hot.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Can you turn that down a little bit and. Yeah, no problem.

[B]

It should be whatever is needed. Right. You know what I mean? Like, to me, that's what the job of the director is, is you're watching the scene and you're looking at it. You get the camera set up in hopefully the right place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you watch the rehearsal, and then you react to what is working, what's not working. And if you think an actor is missing something, or if you're not believing something, whatever it is. And then you have to figure out how to communicate to whoever it is you want to communicate that note. But sometimes not saying anything is a way of doing it, too, because maybe the next take, they won't do that. Maybe me saying something is going to get too much in their head, and this actor seems to want to have space. Other actors seem to. To want to talk it through.

[A]

But I also think, like, what you're saying with Patricia, it's not that you're just saying, like, let's try this or that. It's not like you're not getting it.

[B]

I think, with Patricia, because I'd had the experience of Dannemora and we'd worked together 30 years ago or whatever on Flirting with Disaster, and I hadn't really seen her a lot since then, and who she Is as a person, I feel like she's like a sister or something.

[A]

Yeah, sure, sure.

[B]

I don't know, you know how some people you just have that comfortability with. So I, like, feel. I felt from the previous. By the way, I didn't give her a lot of direction when we were doing Dannemora, too. Cause she came in same way. Like Robert Downey on Tropic Thunder.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I'm not. This guy came in with his thing, and I'm just watching, going, oh, shit. You know, as an audience, I'm going, that's good. Okay.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

So when. Right. It's like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So you just. Right. And that's what your job is. And then to figure out how you can communicate what you want to communicate without making it worse, hopefully.

[A]

But it's like you said, it's kind of like there's a theatricality to the thing that's almost like a play.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know that everything operates as sort of this Beckett. Like, situation.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[A]

And so you had a lot of. Like, you knew that anything any actor was gonna say was gonna resonate.

[B]

Right, for sure. And also, like, I love trusting that not having to. You talk about the pace in the show and stuff like that. It might be a reaction for me from having the years of the test screenings and the pacing and sort of doing a screening of a comedy.

[A]

They've been around a long time.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Back in the day, we'd do the test screen, the focus group, and you'd sit in the back of the theater, and they'd be like, so, what'd you think? Any Ben Stiller fans here? And like, yeah, that's over.

[A]

Huh? You don't have to do that anymore.

[B]

Well, on Dannemore, that was the first thing I ever made that I didn't have to test it. The first thing I ever directed at the test. And it was so freeing. And so I was like, wait a minute. I could do this whole scene, and I'm just gonna let it play out, and that's it. I'm not gonna see if anybody thinks it's too long or anything like that. And that's what we did. And then we'd send it to the network, and they were like, yeah, that's good. Or they'd say, like, this might have been a little. Like, maybe you could tighten this up. And that's a whole other thing.

[A]

But it's also. It's so different that these projects you're doing Even, like, from the jump from Midi to Danna Moore to all this stuff. So you just want to try shit.

[B]

Yeah. I also want to make stuff that I really want to see, too.

[A]

What drew you to Dannemora?

[B]

I wanted to see it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, oh, I love that. This is, like. This reminds me of, like, you know, Dog Day Afternoon. For some reason, the tone, like, it feels like a 70s story. Yeah. Yeah. Even though it's, you know, whatever, 2015 or whatever it is. And why is it that? Oh. Cause they're in prison. And then when I went to visit the prison, I was like, oh, wait a minute. This could be 1975. Sure. Because there's no cell phones in here. Nobody's got any technology. You're not allowed. This place looks exactly the same as it did. To communicate with a guy, you got to do a secret note and put a thing. And it's like. Oh, yeah. The storytelling. Because you know how much of storytelling has been screwed up by cell phones? Right.

[A]

Everything.

[B]

Everything. Right. So detective stories, anything. It's like, everything. You just, like, Google it or find it. So when you're in prison, all of a sudden you have. You can do, like, a period piece without it being in the period.

[A]

Oh, that's great. And then it becomes about people.

[B]

Yeah. And then. Right. And then it's just about people who are like, how do people react?

[A]

Unmediated with no technological mediation.

[B]

Yeah. And then, like, barriers that they have to figure out how to get around, which is, you know, like, human nature. It's just like, people are gonna be people. Guys are gonna like girls, guys are gonna like guys. Girls are gonna like girls. All of it. People are gonna be attracted to each other, figure out how to connect.

[A]

And then you have Benicio in the middle of it.

[B]

Exactly. I mean, wow, that character was something. Yeah. And that guy was a Richard. Matt was a really interesting guy. He was a brilliant, you know, person, because he was a great artist. He was really smart, understood the machinations of how to work, to live in the prison society and do. And then when he got outside of. All kind of fell apart. Yeah, he was much better within that structure.

[A]

The real guy.

[B]

Yeah, the real guy. Yeah. He died, you know, out in the wilderness because he could. I don't think he could handle it.

[A]

Working with that guy Nizio. Yeah. Was that the first time you worked with him?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And did you know him before I knew Benicio?

[B]

Cause we're, like, same age and.

[A]

Yeah. You've been around the game for a while. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But. And Run into him. You know, I knew. I knew Rick Yorn, who's his manager for years, and it was really quite an experience working with Benizio. It was great. I never worked with an actor who, first of all, he had never done a limited series. It was the first time he ever done anything on television. And so when we met, his whole thing was like, the thing was not written all the way through when we met. And he's like, well, how can I play it if I don't know what the ending is? Which was interesting because as a guy who'd done movies, he'd have a script and he'd read a script. And for his process as an actor, he has to know what the arc of the character is and where he's going. And I said, oh, that's okay. I get that we know what the general ending is because it's a true story, but the scripts don't exist yet. And it was a series of meetings with him, a bunch of meetings where I'd come out here to meet with him and talk to him about it and tell him the script, how it was developing, talk about episodes.

[A]

This is before he agreed to it.

[B]

Before he agreed to it.

[A]

And then you finally, you know, you got closure.

[B]

Then we got. Then he agreed. I think in the beginning, he was always daunted by the fact that it was so much, which, again, totally understandable as a movie actor. Like, two hour movie. This is gonna be like a seven or eight hour thing. Yeah, that's a lot of work. And we just developed a sort of trust with each other, talking about it, where I said, look, I totally get it. This is the first time I've done something like this too.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But we both knew that we'd been around, but we didn't really know each other. So it was like, do you want to jump in together on this? And I remember we had this conversation, you know, we chip away at it. We just chip away at it scene by scene.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think. I think that's where we connected, where it's just like, yeah, we're gonna chip away at it scene by scene and try to make every scene as good as possible. And that's what I got working with him, was that every scene he approached, he wanted to make as interesting and as layered and as good as he could.

[A]

Well, every scene has an arc, right? Yeah, every scene has its own arc. Right. So once you develop the character, you know, he's just playing this. Like, I imagine you look at the scene and you. And you can kind of see where that goes, even if it's in two minutes.

[B]

Right, right. Which is, you know, analyzing the scene. Like, really looking at it, as opposed to just saying, like, I go here, I go there. You know, he was thinking about. And then also, like, literally thinking, like, what can I do here that's gonna somehow illuminate who this character is and show something.

[A]

And you can't take his eyes. You can't take your eyes off him. Right. The character was crazy.

[B]

Yeah. He's seductive and he's scary.

[A]

It's an interesting thing with those actors. Cause I have this, like, other thing with Malkovich, too, where it's like, there's the movie and then there's the one they're in.

[B]

Totally. 100%.

[A]

But it's great. It's worth it. You know, it's worth it. But it's definitely like, this guy's so. On another level.

[B]

Yeah. And it's. Every scene is like, he's coming and going. Like, what if I was, like, standing on my head at the beginning of this scene? Like, whoa.

[A]

Yeah, Interesting.

[B]

Yeah, interesting. Why? Well, I don't know. Like, you know, he's trying to stay.

[A]

In shape, and you have to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, try it.

[B]

Well, sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes it would be like that, and sometimes it'd be like, I don't know about that. And then we'd have the discussion about it. Yeah. There was, you know, there was one choice he made where, you know, he says to her, like, don't tell anybody. And he, like, does this crazy voice when she finds out that they're going to try to escape.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he did this huge thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was really interesting.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I. And I was like, wow, that's a choice that, like, I did not see coming. And he's like. And he was like, yeah. And I think, you know, I'm trying to scare her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Into not telling anybody. And I was like, all right, great. That was great. Should we try another? And you want to try, like, maybe one that's, like, a little smaller? Or, like, he's like, no, no, I think. I think I'm good. I'm kind of married to that one. I'm like, okay. All right. And my director scared you? Yeah. Oh, for sure. Oh, definitely. I mean, like, he's. You know, he has a presence. And that tension was actually, like, a very real thing on set. But, like, you know what? That was good for me to learn as a director, too. Like, when did I go? Like, do I need to assert myself here? As a director and like, show that I'm the director. How much is my ego as a director that I have to, you know. Cause you do get into that thing.

[A]

There's always a risk in that. Right. Because, like, you do that once and you risk the possibility of an entire cast going like, oh, fuck.

[B]

Right. Or the relationship that we have with Benicio. And I, like, if you don't want it to become tenues, but also you don't ever want to not say something that you feel. So on that one in particular, I saw that he really wanted to do that and it probably was, I think, ultimate that he didn't necessarily trust that if he gave me another choice, that I might use the other choice in the edit.

[A]

Right. Well, that's.

[B]

Which is how you as an actor, sometimes you protect yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you don't give them a choice.

[A]

If you're on top of it. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Right. So I felt like the only thing I thought there was like, oh, maybe I wish he trusted more that, you know. But I also totally understood that because he had never worked with me before necessarily. And then when he saw the first. When he saw the cut of the first episode.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He was like, oh, man. I really. That's. That's. It was the first time I feel like he was like, oh, I get it. You know?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, really?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I mean, how's he gonna know until you see how it comes together.

[B]

Right? Exactly.

[A]

Like, Owen doesn't watch anything he's ever been in, ever. It's crazy.

[B]

I know. It's so crazy.

[A]

You know, and. Cause like, I remember, like, just after the premiere, like, he, he. He showed up for the press, and then him and Luke went and got something to eat, and they come back and I saw him at the party and, you know, I asked him why and he said, because, like, you know that little fight scene we did, it was like. I remember that being the greatest scene ever. Why would I want to fuck with that? Like, you know, why would I want to see what it's become?

[B]

Right.

[A]

But then when I went up to him after. After the premiere and I was at the party, I said, I think it really works, dude. I think you and I, it works. He's like, really? You. Like, he. Of course. But he, you know, he still needed that.

[B]

Of course. I mean, it's a really interesting thing because I obviously know Owen forever. Yeah. And it's really hard to imagine, like, all the stuff that we did over the years that he's never Seen So funny, too.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because he's done some, like, really amazing funny stuff.

[A]

No, it was. It was great to work with him. He's. He's an interesting guy, and he's just one of those guys where you're like, all right. Well, I guess. Yeah. Well, you know, you're a mysterious guy.

[B]

Did you ever have him on the.

[A]

No, I don't think you do it. Really.

[B]

No.

[A]

I mean, like, I don't.

[B]

So interesting. I was thinking about that when I was coming over, like that you have Mom. Because he is an interesting guy.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

He's got so much going on, and he is a mystery. I've known him for, whatever, 30 years.

[A]

Well, he's got very poetic sensibilities, very smart. And he, like, really takes things in and engages with it. But you do get the sense it's sort of like, well, you know, I'm not gonna poke around in there.

[B]

Yeah, you're good.

[A]

I'm glad you're good. And that's good.

[B]

And he loves, you know, he loves to read, I think. He loves movies.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He loves biographies.

[A]

Oh, yeah. He walks into movies. He's really good with that. Like, certain lines and stuff. We got a lot of laughs just talking about movies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. No, he's great.

[B]

That's my memory of working with Owen, and we're about to work together again. Cause we're doing another Meet the Parents, and it's been a while since I worked with him. Is the laughs with him on set, hanging out like we did in the last, like, Little Fockers. I think we had a scene with Harvey Keitel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was just a funny energy with, like, me and Owen and Harvey Keitel. And again, Harvey, I know from when I was a kid, because he worked with my dad and people like. But Harvey Keitel and De Niro, these guys are like, you know, these screen legend kind of guys. And, like, I think Owen and I were feeling very insecure doing a scene with Harvey.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Harvey was, like, in Mean Streets or something. And we're like. And he kind of was, like, looking at us like we were two wise guys or something. Like, what do you two guys got going on here? And moments like that with Owen over the years that just really.

[A]

And he's good. He likes to laugh.

[B]

Yeah, he loves to laugh. Yeah. He'll, like, call me up and, like, he also has the craziest memory, you know, that he'll remember stuff that I told him about my childhood, like, 25 years ago, that he'll, like, go, hey, he'll just literally call me up and goes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was just thinking about that time when, you know, you said your dad picked you up from camp when you were homesick, and then you told him to. To leave when you met that girl, and. Yeah, and he was just making me laugh.

[A]

Well, I think that, like, I think.

[B]

Worst Owen Wilson impression, by the way.

[A]

Yeah. Some people can really do him. Spade can do him.

[B]

Oh, can he?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But. But there's something, I think, like, he. When. When something has meaning to him, when he sees it or reads it or something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It stays in there.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it becomes a point of reference, an emotional point of reference. And I think that's sort of why he's also kind of a great natural actor. Is that, like, he does find meaning? Yes, because it's all very immediate. It's like a poetry to it.

[B]

And his performance in Bottle Rocket, for me, is like one of the most special comedic performances.

[A]

And then when I watch him on the show, because, like, you know, when you're acting across from somebody, you don't know what they're doing, really, because you're just in, you know, you don't know how it's gonna read because you're just in the scene. And then he's just got all this, like, crazy natural timing, and it's like, you know, you're watching. I'm like, I didn't even notice that he was doing all that. And I'm sitting here like, you know. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. All right, so let's just lay out the entire next season of severance, okay?

[B]

What do you care?

[A]

I watch it. I watch it. I'm in.

[B]

It's going to be very slow, all goats and not as much going to happen, and then all of a sudden, something will happen.

[A]

I got a lot of laughs, and I was always interested. The only. And I didn't mean to diminish it in any way. No, no.

[B]

I find it refreshing to talk to someone who wants to talk about impatient, what their feeling is for real about it.

[A]

It's a narrative in patience. It's not anything.

[B]

And by the way, that's the constant for me when we're making. It is my concern is people like you, you know, going, come on. But I do go back to Dannemore. For me, like, just. I feel like you establish from the beginning, you say, this is what the pace is gonna be, and then we can mess around with it within it. And you just have to trust that and hopefully that enough people will, you know, be able To.

[A]

Well, yeah, no, that. It builds up and it definitely delivers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I can't even watch a. Like, for me, the enjoyment of suspense is very limited. You know what I mean? Like, I don't get a kick out of, like, not gonna happen. You know, like, there's no nowhere in my life that's a fucking enjoyable experience.

[B]

You don't need that in your life.

[A]

No, I have it just, like, I have it a half hour before you come over.

[B]

What the fuck am I going to talk about for an hour?

[A]

But you know what I mean, like, my. My life is so consumed with dread and panic. It's not something I'm looking for from entertainment.

[B]

I understand. I totally get that. I guess I can put my dread in panic of my life into my work. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sort of like, go, okay. I'm just gonna experience it through.

[A]

Well, yeah, but it must be like a Zen exercise almost.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. It's interesting. Cause, like, having edited all these episodes, it becomes like, you know, like, it has its own language.

[A]

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then you. But I do. I mean, there's the challenges of, like, how do we build this thing too ahead?

[A]

Well, so how much do you know? Because this is like, the one thing I know from doing the type of TV I've done. And then, like, seeing, like, what seems like fully formed visions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That, like. But most of the time you're still writing when you're doing the show. Like, this idea that, like, it's a rare person that's got the whole thing mapped out.

[B]

Yeah. I've never. Like I said, I've never had an experience like this where people care so much about. Also about the process or, like, are very curious, like, how much do you know? Do you know the ending? What is. You know, like. Because there's this institutional memory of, like, we've been burned before by shows that are these mysteries that are leading to something, and then we feel like they didn't.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I really. We have felt that a lot with this show where people, like, go, I don't. I hope it better have a good ending, otherwise the whole thing will not have been worth it.

[A]

But also. But the ending in a show like this, you know, has to have a certain element of vagueness in order to propel the next, you know, unfolding.

[B]

Right. Like, what did you think of the ending of the Sopranos?

[A]

I was fine. You know, I'd been through enough.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, like, I mean, what do You. What do you.

[B]

But, like, the ending where it cuts to black and we don't know what happened.

[A]

Yeah, I know, but. But, like, with a show like that, I mean, it's like you've seen these guys do everything. They've killed everybody in every different way.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean, how are you going to beat whatever's happened?

[B]

The idea, I think, too, that I like that ending.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

I think also, like, I'm still thinking about it 10 years later. Like, you know what I mean? Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. It hit me on some level. Yeah. So, like, you have to be willing to make a choice sometimes that is gonna, like, leave some people feeling frustrated.

[A]

But actually, with that one, it was ultimately the hum. It followed the core of the show. It was humanized.

[B]

Yes, yes. By the way, I think that's what every show is about, ultimately. People get connected to the characters.

[A]

Yeah. And that, like, you know. Well, they just had dinner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So the guy walking towards him didn't shoot him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Who's that on? That's on you. You know, maybe you should.

[B]

Or maybe he shoots him in 10 seconds later.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, but, I mean. But yeah, let's re.

[B]

Let's restart the Soprano. Then Stiller starts Sopranos controversy again.

[A]

Yeah, I was fine with it. I talked to.

[B]

You know, I just thought, there's something about it, to me that was, like, very intriguing. Like, it hit me.

[A]

But, you know, but if anyone is disappointed with an ending of a series that went on that long and went through that much, they can go fuck themselves.

[B]

Right? Exactly. Or, like, is gonna retroactively judge the show based on how they landed.

[A]

What do you want?

[B]

Yes. It's like, whatever, but I understand, you know, look, this is all spoken from people who are the stress of making these things.

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

Because ultimately, you want the audience to be happy. Right. But you can only make your. Like when you're making a show or you're writing a show or editing or directing, whatever, all you can do is try to satisfy for you what you're. What you think feels right.

[A]

But I think that the poetry of what this show is is that there is sort kind of. I don't know if the word cryptic, but, you know, there is a mystery there that doesn't really have a clean resolution.

[B]

Right, right. But you want to feel at the end of the whole thing.

[A]

Yeah. That something is happening.

[B]

Right, exactly. That this was somehow, you know, that it was. That it doesn't in some way feel like, oh, they copped out or something like that.

[A]

Right, right. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And that comes from understanding where you're going. But I will say, and I think I said it earlier, it's like. It's a messy process. Creativity is messy. So, yeah, it has to be. And you have to allow room for discovery within what you're doing.

[A]

But the benefit of this is that, like, with a lot of shows, procedurals or whatever, not a show like this, is that when you have a. Like, you know, when you're trying to figure out the puzzle, I mean, the big crime of those shows is all of a sudden, something in the last episode or the last two episodes is inserted into this puzzle you've been trying to figure out for the entire season, and you're like, what the fuck? There was no way to figure this out.

[B]

Right, right. You didn't. Right. You sort of.

[A]

You didn't have all the information, but you guys didn't do that.

[B]

No, no, no. And it's very important, I think, that you honor that. You know what I mean? You don't, like, go back and go, well, we figured out this thing.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So. But I will always say you have to have room for. To discover stuff within these.

[A]

Sure. Well, right. So then that's a creative process, and that's the excitement of it.

[B]

That's the fun of it.

[A]

Yeah. So. But when. At the end. Did you, like, picture at the end of both seasons that this could be the end and it has to be enough? No, you're always like, we're gonna keep going, and if they fuck us, it's on them.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't not do that. You know, even in the first season, when he's. You know, it's like, okay, we have to have another season of this show.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And we felt like, even if Apple's not gonna pick it up, then the people are gonna be upset. So, like, let's leave a cliffhanger so they hopefully have to pick it up.

[A]

Yeah. It's good that you're in that situation, because they can just blame Apple.

[B]

Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We wanted to make sure that they had that.

[A]

But do you have a. Do you have an arc laid out for the next one?

[B]

And that's also, like, what. You know, what we. That's why I'm out here right now is, you know, we're working on that. We're writing and sort of really figuring out exactly. It's like, there's the cadence of the show, how often it comes on. You know, the air is three years between two seasons. It's Too long.

[A]

Too long.

[B]

So we're figuring out how to do it so that doesn't happen again for the life of the show.

[A]

So are you gonna go back up to Canada?

[B]

We don't do it all in New York.

[A]

It's all New York this season or always?

[B]

Always.

[A]

Didn't you shoot somewhere up in Newfoundland?

[B]

We shot up in Newfoundland for one episode. Yeah. This episode where Patricia's character goes back to her.

[A]

The Jerry episode. He got to go to Newfoundland. Exactly, yeah. Oh, it's all in New York.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, that's easy.

[B]

Mostly in the Bronx. Well, we had the stage in the Bronx for the first two seasons, so I got very familiar. For five years I've been working on.

[A]

Five years. Yeah. That's crazy, man.

[B]

Yeah, it's so weird. 19 episodes.

[A]

You're so lucky that it's satisfying.

[B]

Well, it kind of pulled me in. And then the first season we had Covid, so we shot in the height of COVID which was crazy. And then the second season, we had the writers strike, so that stopped us in the middle. And I kept editing during the writer's strike because I was a non writing executive producer.

[A]

And.

[B]

And so I was. I've been working on the show straight through.

[A]

And that's. Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, that's the difference between like, whatever talent I have or may have for this kind of thing. The idea that, like, okay, we're going to do this movie could take seven years, Right? Oh, my God. I don't know.

[B]

And I'm like, I'm the most impatient person. And I think this process has taught me, like, to be somewhere where you're shooting a show and you're like, okay, we're on the set, we're shooting season two. We didn't know it was going to be three years, but it was a good chance it was gonna be at least two years. I was like, we're shooting a scene now, guys, that will not be seen for two years.

[A]

Oh, my God, that's crazy.

[B]

And by the way, you finish editing the scene because you can edit it like two weeks later.

[A]

And it just sits there.

[B]

It's there. It's like, okay, that's good, but we gotta do the other nine episodes. And because of the way streaming works with these, with Apple and these streamers, you have to deliver. You deliver everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if it was a show that was a sitcom or whatever, you'd be making the show. And six weeks later it's on the air and you're making the next one. This one. It's like, even if you finish the first three episodes, it doesn't matter. Those three episodes are not gonna be delivered or they're not gonna be in any way sent out to the world for a long, long time.

[A]

Yeah. And so do you have time to do anything else? Are you acting? Are you gonna do.

[B]

So during the strike, I acted in this little movie, this little Hulu movie called Nutcrackers that David Gordon Green directed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's the only thing I've acted in.

[A]

Do you miss that?

[B]

And I kind of miss it, but. And I'm excited to do the Meet the Parents one with Elliot because it's fun, because I haven't done that for a long time.

[A]

Funny stuff.

[B]

And it's also a little bit challenging in a way, because I feel like that thing. Well, no, just because I haven't done it. Like, I feel, like, a little bit nervous.

[A]

Yeah, sure. It comes back, right?

[B]

Yeah, it does come back.

[A]

Who's directing that?

[B]

John Hamburg.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So he did, what. He did some of the Stick episodes.

[B]

Yeah. And he, you know, he did great guy. We worked together, and he's great. Great comedy director.

[A]

He is. Yeah.

[B]

But it's. Yeah, it's interesting. I love directing. I'm really happy not having to worry about putting my face or sitting in a trailer or, like, you talk about looking in the mirror, it's like, you know. Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, we're sitting in a trailer. I was talking to Rogan about that, too. Like, how it can be sometimes, like, kind of boring, dude. Right?

[A]

It's the fucking worst part of it.

[B]

Yeah. And what do you do when you're working? Like, do you write? Do you go? Like, do you. When you have downtime?

[A]

No, I look at Food Circle Crafty every hour or so. And then you sit in your trailer and eventually you get to the point you're like, what could they be doing right? What are they doing Right? So that's my experience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the last one on Stick, I was like. I was lucky because this is like me in acting all the time, where I'm not sure I like it, because the waiting doesn't justify. I need the acting part to justify the waiting. But somehow I figured out how to hook the Samsung TV in the trailer up to my phone. And I could get the Criterion Channel and my Netflix and everything. So I'm like, fuck, I'll watch the Godfather again. I'm gonna watch Once Upon a Time in Hollywood again. Tropic Thunder.

[B]

And how does that work with your acting process? And I'M not saying that facetiously, but, like, you know, seriously, like. Because I find that kind of like, okay, I'm watching the Godfather. I get into it. Then there's like, hey, five minutes. Five minutes, right? It's like, oh, wait a minute. My mother just died. Okay.

[A]

Well, that's true. Maybe. Maybe I'm not as committed as I know.

[B]

I don't know. I find it challenging, too. Like, I don't know how to, like, I.

[A]

Well, I think, like. Like, for a day's scene, you know, you look at it like, here. Here's what you got to do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So then you kind of lay out your choices. You get to the emotional zone. I'm not. You know, I'm not. There's a heaviness to this character that I can live in and still watch the Godfather.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

You know, but there were, like, when I shot a. I was the lead in this indie movie that Rob Burnett did, and that was the biggest thing I've ever done. But, like, when you're that.

[B]

But you're in every scene, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you're not watching anything, which is much. In a way, it's much easier to do it that way. It's better. Yeah, it's better. It's because it's the same thing. Like, you know, when you're starting out and you get like. Or a day on a movie like that, and then all of a sudden you got to come in and do your thing, and everybody's, like, super relaxed and they've been doing it, and. And also, you're in front of a camera. It's not a comfortable situation.

[A]

That's what happened on fucking. That was the funniest thing. You know, Todd Phillips let me be in the first joker, right. I was De Niro. I was the producer on the TV show that De Niro was. And like. Like, I. I just. Like, I'm just doing these few lines, and there. You know, there's a whole movie. But all along I'm like, ready?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was. It was that moment where we do a walk and talk that didn't even make the movie. And I meet De Niro, and that's a big deal. I don't know. Fucking. I never met him before. And trying to connect. And we. And we did, which is not easy.

[B]

Not easy. I love him. He's the best. But, you know, it's Robert De Niro.

[A]

It's kind of amazing when you watch actors. Like I said with Owen, it's like, I'm watching him do these takes you know, for the show. He's the host of that show. And I'm just watching him go over and over again. He doesn't have all these lines. I'm like, oh, boy, this is gonna be a problem. And then you watch the thing, you're like, he knew exactly what he was doing. Like, there was never.

[B]

Oh, my God. I've seen that. I've seen that before, too.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

When you see, like, a brilliant actor, their process, sometimes you're like, yeah. And you're like, oh, wow, he really did. Wait. I don't know. I've seen that where it's like this take. I don't know that take. And then all of a sudden, it's like the next take and the take locks in. I've seen that with Tom Cruise, too. And you're like, oh, shit. Yeah. Because that person. Because he understands that he has to get to somewhere, and then he knows he only needs one take. And then when he finds that take, it's the best. It's insane. Yeah, but they're not worried about. They're not worried about how they get there because they know the process. That's what a film director knows. They know that. That's what. Honestly, what I love about movies, as opposed to doing, like, the Oscars thing, you can do it 10 times, get it right. The way you feel is right.

[A]

But there was my scene, though. Like, I talked to, you know, Todd, and I meet De Niro, and then it's just sort of like, all right, let's do one. And I'm like, okay. So it's this walk and talk, and I'm like, you know, I'm like, going at it. And then he's cut. And I go back to my chair, and De Niro's across the way at his chair. I just see De Niro get up and walk over to Todd and then walk back to his seat. And then Todd comes about, he walks up to me and he goes, you're coming in a little hot. Remember, like, De Niro's your boss. Like, yeah, okay. Yeah, I got it, I got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good, good, good. But because I'm in. I know I'm just this two line guy, and De Niro's not going to remember me. He's worked with a million two line guys. Right, but, but. But then all of a sudden you're going like, I heard already fucked it up.

[B]

Right? Yeah, of course.

[A]

But then you just kind of pull it together.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how much I enjoy that aspect of it. As opposed to coming to a set as a director, you never have to get in front of the camera. It's a different part of your brain in a way. The thing I do feel like you have to do is you have to somehow try to empathize with the actors.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's important. I kind of learned that with Lynn. My. The late Lynn Shelton.

[B]

I mean, she.

[A]

That was. She was all about that. And it's really. Yeah. And like, some people just have that weird empathy thing. But if you're like a self absorbed, anxious fucking mess all the time, it's something you have to. You have to work on.

[B]

Yes. But it's something I never even thought. It's funny that she did that because that is, I think, something that nobody tells you to do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's like, how do you. I thought about it when I was doing Danna Moore, like, okay, here I am, I'm an actor. I'm looking at these guys who are these amazing actors. How can I connect with them somehow in the scene? They don't need me to connect them, but how do I connect so that I feel like I'm the most connected to the scene to figure out how it should be? And I realized for me, it's like, oh, maybe I'm just gonna try to empathize with this situation that they're in.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if that makes sense. Well, it worked for me in that it just made me feel a little bit more connected to the choices that I was making.

[A]

And you knew as an actor, the situation they were in.

[B]

Yeah, I knew as an actor. And also empathize the fact that I didn't have to be them in that situation, if that makes sense, because it's real. I had so much more of an appreciation for how hard it is.

[A]

Yeah. You didn't go cut and go like, hey, guys, I'm so glad I'm not doing.

[B]

But I felt like somehow, psychically, if I could sort of put myself in there with them, for me, I would be more connected to the movie.

[A]

That's great. Yeah, that's. I mean, that's like that, like as a director, you know.

[B]

But that's interesting that she just instinctually knew that because she Was she an actress.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, she was.

[B]

So she had that. That's the thing, that understanding as an actor, to empathize.

[A]

Yeah. And also I think it's like something I should have realized that I didn't until I talked to Pacino which was fortuitous, because I talked to him just as I was starting that movie that, you know, artists. The job of an actor is the job of an actor, but the art of an actor, like, you know, Pacino, I didn't know him. And, you know, you make assumptions about people from seeing their work your whole life. But he's a neurotic guy. He's a shy, neurotic guy. And the whole thing for him has been about pursuing the truth of a role, of a scene, of a moment. And that's really it. I mean, that is the art of it. So I think if you're keyed into that and that's what you're looking for and you have an innate sense of what that is, that's an empathy thing.

[B]

For sure. Yeah, for sure. And I think that sometimes can get lost on a set, you know, when people. Just. Because it's not a place where that's. Unless the director sets that table and says, okay, you know, in whatever way.

[A]

And also holds back the forces that, you know, money or. We don't have time. You got, like.

[B]

How many times as a director, I've felt like, oh, shit, I got, like, you know, 10 minutes to get the shot. I'm not gonna go up to, you know, whoever and say, like, hey, I gotta get the shot in 10 minutes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's the last thing I wanna do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So there's so many things that are going on that you just wanna shield everybody else from. And then it's just sort of like you wanna have this exploratory space where there isn't pressure. But it is in a situation that there is always pressure.

[A]

Sure. But sometimes you got two actors. Like, is this the Martin. Are we done?

[B]

Right. Oh, yeah, for sure. Well, yeah. Owen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You guys are gonna have fun. All right, man. Well. And your health is good?

[B]

My health? Yeah, my health is good. I'm 10 years past my prostate cancer.

[A]

Well, how did you not. How did you not catch that?

[B]

I caught it because my doctor gave me a PSA test.

[A]

Oh, so, like, the right way. So you went in for the check?

[B]

I had it at. At 47, 48. My PSA started going up, and the national guidelines are, like, at 50, you get your. It's a blood test.

[A]

Yeah, I know. Yeah.

[B]

But my doctor just started giving it to me at, like, 46. 47.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Thankfully.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he looked at it, he monitored it for, like, a couple. Like, a year or two, and he saw a jump and he said, hey, maybe you should get it checked out.

[A]

That's good. Because that's a treatable thing, if. It is a treatable thing, if you get checked out.

[B]

But a lot of people, you know, they miss it. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, I taught. I used to.

[B]

I mean, it's what that Biden is dealing with right now.

[A]

He's old.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing is, a lot of people get diagnosed with prostate cancer at a certain age where they don't do anything about it anyway because it won't grow past their natural lifespan.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, you just gotta get those tests.

[B]

It's when you're younger and you get it. You just gotta get the PSA test.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And do it every year. Get the colonoscopy when you're supposed to, all that stuff.

[B]

And by the way. Yeah. I mean, not to talk colonoscopy, but, like, you know, the last time I did that, my doctor explained it to me in a way, because I don't know about you, but I don't like going in for tests and things like that. I don't want to. There are people I know who get. Every year, the whole.

[A]

How about those people? The full body scan.

[B]

Full body scan.

[A]

I can't do it.

[B]

Yeah, right. Because you're scared of what you're going to find. Sure. Yeah.

[A]

I had the calcium, the heart plaque test, like, eight or nine years ago, and I'm like, all right, well, that didn't.

[B]

No, I did that, too. CAT scan.

[A]

CAT scan? Yeah. Where they can see how much plaque you have. Yeah, I didn't like that.

[B]

Cause you didn't want to know that the plaque. How much?

[A]

Well, I kind of wanted to know because I don't want to clog up.

[B]

But you should, right? You should. No, of course. Yeah. And the thing is, when you, like with the colonoscopy thing, it's like the guy explained to me, he's like, hey, if you do this every, whatever, eight years or whatever, six, they can find polyps. Right. That they eventually turn cancerous, but they can find them and take them out before they do that. So in a way, if you do it, just do it. Because you'll be preventing it.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

And my fear was like, oh, they're gonna do it and they're gonna find out, like, I have, you know.

[A]

No, it's all. Should be preventative.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, but now they, like. It's so funny because, I don't know. Someone told me that they don't. They can do the ps. The PSA test has gotten you Know, specific enough to where they don't have to do the actual finger in the ass.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But there's part of me that's like, go ahead and do. Go ahead and do the finger.

[B]

Just double check it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just make sure it feels firm or whatever. No, I don't like it. I'm just saying, you know.

[B]

Sure. You want a little physical contact?

[A]

Contact just to. Yeah. Just to make sure that we're connecting here.

[B]

Yeah. No. So that's all good.

[A]

Oh, good. All right, man. Well, great work.

[B]

Thanks, man. I mean, I'm so happy I get to be on the podcast before it goes away.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you were like the. You're like the OG guy. How's it been?

[A]

It's been good. You know, it's a heavy decision.

[B]

16 years.

[A]

16 years. There's this idea now in the media landscape we live in where people just can't understand that, like, why would you stop?

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean, because we did it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, you want to end up just being like, is that guy still doing it? You know, just go, you know, we did. All right. We talked to everybody twice.

[B]

Right, right. How many people you had on twice?

[A]

Not that many.

[B]

I feel very honored to have.

[A]

Yeah, not that many. Yeah. And we don't. We generally didn't do it at all.

[B]

But you sort of created a genre.

[A]

Yes, I did.

[B]

You really did.

[A]

And I feel proud of it. I don't know what my life is going to be like without it, because it is pretty labor intensive, and there's going to be a void there that I'm going to look at as a world of possibility as opposed to, like, fucking.

[B]

Podcasts are so fascinating to me. I mean, because I feel like they fill this void now that comes from talking about, like, when I was working on the. The movie, about my folks and looking at these 70s talk shows, people talked about real stuff.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I think the podcasts filled that void where people get real conversations a lot of times, because talk shows now are just, you know.

[A]

No.

[B]

Just repackage, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Keep the beats viral, whatever. Yeah, No, I think some top podcasts are like that, but there's also, like. I think there's like 20% of that and then about 80%, you know, mediocre drive time, afternoon radio.

[B]

Right. And it's also, like, gotten very segmented, hasn't it, in terms of who the audience is?

[A]

Tribalized. Well, that's a bigger conversation.

[B]

Oh, my God. Right.

[A]

Yeah, there's some. On some level, like, I said this, I think in the last, when I announced the ending, it's like I was at the beginning of this amazing new medium, but I also feel like I unleashed some sort of evil on the world. You know, the possibilities of it.

[B]

Who would have thought that it became such an important part of our. The political landscape? It's crazy.

[A]

Important's a diplomatic word.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, yeah, I would go with destructive.

[B]

Right.

[A]

For the most part. But another day, Ben.

[B]

Another day. No, it's so complicated and interesting and I definitely don't want to talk about it here.

[A]

Good seeing you, man.

[B]

All right, man. You too.

[A]

There you go. Me and Ben Stiller again. He's up for Emmys as the producer and director of Severance. You can watch both seasons on Apple tv. Plus hang out for a minute, folks. Hey, if you want more discussion about Ben's work, Brendan and Chris are covering Tropic Thunder on the full Marin bonus feed. It's a two parter that continues this week. As this music swells and you see this shot, and then you get another chopper shot above this chopper. Like this is. Before there were drones like that.

[B]

You.

[A]

To do a shot that high in the sky, you needed a helicopter. So it's like a helicopter above a helicopter. And I'm just sitting there watching this, going like, this is good filmmaking.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, they're making this. It's like one of the reasons the movie is so successful is that they legit made the movie. Their parody.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

Like, with all the pie, this movie cost over $90 million. Like, that's a lot for a comedy. But it looks great.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Everything looks great. Even when they're just like, at a river.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'm like, man, they got a great river here. Like, I know they're not in the. In the. They're not in Vietnam. They're in Kauai. Right. They filmed all this in Hawaii, but it still looks great. Like, they did all the right location scouting and everything. Like, Stiller does not get enough credit, which I think he gets now because he makes Severance and everybody thinks he's a good director for real. He did not get enough credit with this movie for being a good director. That's on the latest episode of the Friday show. For full Marin subscribers to sign up and get bonus episodes twice a week, go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. Here's some Johnny Thunders, Boomer Lives Monkey and La Fonda Cat Angels Everywhere.