Episode 1671 - Peter Conheim

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron – Episode 1671: Peter Conheim

Release Date: August 21, 2025
Guest: Peter Conheim
Theme: Art, Audio Collage, and Archival Preservation – The Legacy and Resonance of Countercultural Audio Art

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Overview

In this episode, Marc Maron sits down with Peter Conheim—film and audio archivist, musician, and longtime member of the experimental band Negativland—for a deep-dive conversation about the legacy of anti-consumerist art, the evolution of audio collage and culture-jamming, the critical role of archiving and restoration, and what it means to preserve—and live within—the avant-garde. They journey from Bay Area art scenes and cassette cut-ups to recent work restoring Devo's archives, wrestling with questions of artistic intent, cultural memory, and the paradoxical mainstreaming of outsider art.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Context: Negativland, Counterculture, and Culture Jamming

(05:01–16:45; 19:11–24:48)

• Marc reflects on the energy of late 1970s–80s performance art, punk, and anti-consumerist movements, connecting it to the emergence of Negativland.
• The "fuck you, we're here" impulse: Art as active rebellion, seeking authenticity over commercial gain.
• Nostalgia vs. building blocks: Marc discusses how, rather than wallow in nostalgia, revisiting this art can reaffirm your sense of self and foundational values.
• On Culture Jamming:
  • “Culture jamming was a real thing, you’re gonna create media that infects the broader media almost as a virus, to reveal the truth of its impact and domination on our consciousness.” — Marc Maron (21:36)
  • Peter elaborates on how culture jamming has, paradoxically, become mainstream, with social media now “chopping up content” as a matter of routine (22:46–23:46).
• The Death of Anti-Consumerist Art?
  • “Everybody is their own brand… there's no real integrity on the level of what determines real art. Art with purpose… it doesn't exist in the way it used to.” — Marc (07:19)

2. Negativland’s Methods: Comedy, Satire, and Open Source

(17:18–26:10; 38:55–41:13)

• Negativland as Comedy: The band’s roots are “comedy records in the tradition of Firesign Theater” – absurdist, layered satire of media and culture.
• Open Source Ethos: “A big part of it was, you could take it and do what you wanted… please come to our shows and record us… use this material to make your own object.” — Peter Conheim (24:34)
• Don Joyce’s Ashes: The posthumous Negative Land album Chopping Channel features the literal ashes of a band member, pressed into vinyl, as both concept and memorial. (24:48)

3. Peter’s Origin Story: From Berkeley Tapes to Audio Collectives

(26:24–34:13)

• Childhood in Berkeley: Early audio experiments with tape editing at 6–7 years old (28:04).
• Isolation, Obsession, and Nerd Community: Peter reflects on his solitary, obsessive bent compared to Marc’s searching, phase-based adolescence.
• Artistic Mentors & Connections: The importance of record/video store mentors and “weirdo culture” (32:19–33:53).
• Film vs. Audio Focus: Dropping out of high school, transitioning from Super 8 films to video—eventually working at video stores, which became social and subcultural hubs.

4. The Bay Area Scene: Radio Art and Collaborative Creative Networks

(36:11–49:40)

• KPFA’s ‘Over the Edge’ Show: As a focal point for avant-garde audio collage and improvisation in the Bay Area.
• Performing with Tapes: Negativland’s live shows involved “bringing hundreds of blindfolds” and immersing audiences in a purely auditory experience (39:33).
• The Power (and Limitations) of Audio: Both Peter and Marc bemoan the rise of YouTube-centric podcasts: “You want to have it in your world. But the distraction of having to look at people who are sitting on a mic like this—I don't get it.” — Peter (40:04)

5. RALPH Records, The Residents, and the Mystery of Anonymity

(46:25–53:09)

• The Residents' Influence: Far-reaching impact on Bay Area kids in the 70s/80s, especially their embrace of anonymity—“they gave me permission at a really young age to be anonymous.” — Peter (47:56)
• Art for Art’s Sake, or ‘Go Fuck Yourself’ Art: Deliberate provocation, anti-commercial ethos, and their place in the Zappa/Beefheart tradition.
• DIY Success: At their peak, underground experimental labels could sell unlikely quantities simply because there was so little competition (53:39).

6. Sample-Based Art: The U2 Incident and the Perils of Legal Provocation

(43:36–46:25)

• Negativland’s infamous U2 release: Designed as a legal provocation and media hack—backfiring legally and, to Peter, overshadowing the record itself.
  • “The provocation itself overshadowed the fact that it was this pretty layered, great piece of cut up art.” — Peter (45:39)
  • Aftermath: Increased legal caution for the band.

7. Archival Work, Restoration, and the Ethics of Preservation

(58:04–77:49)

• From Video Stores to Restoration: Peter’s path toward film archiving and preservation, with a focus on neglected analog treasures and the artists’ intent.
• Restoring Devo, The Residents, and Mexican Cinema: Recent work includes remastering Devo music films and Mexican studio classics for Criterion.
• Preservation as Justice:
  • “I have this weird, innate sense of justice where I want the truth to be told, but I’m not on the spectrum about it… you can make something way better than it was originally.” — Peter (66:25)
• Analog vs. Digital: Peter debunks “format fetishism” and illustrates how digital can help achieve the artist’s intent—if used with care and context.
• Remixing vs. Remastering:
  • “He did a reissue of a Miles record and… did a remix. Very different from a remaster.” — Peter (77:19)
  • Remixes radically alter content; remasters work with the existing mix, though modern tools blur the lines (78:14).

8. Enduring Relevance: Why Preserve Obscurities?

(73:51–74:20; 75:17–77:11)

• Marc’s skepticism about audience: “Who’s going to watch this shit? Five people. Is that satisfying?”
• Importance of memory and resistance:
  • “It’s important in a time where authoritarian momentum is consciously trying to erase the past.” — Marc (74:09)
• Invisible Craft: Peter discusses how subtle preservation decisions—like Prieto’s lens choices—shape emotional experience, even if the audience doesn’t consciously notice.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

(Speaker attribution and timestamps in MM:SS format)

• Marc, on anti-consumerist art of the '80s:
  “It was an explosion of ‘fuck you, we're here and you can go fuck yourself. And this is why.’ Or: ‘I don't fit into your paradigm—I'm free.’” (07:19)
• Peter, on the show’s producer, Brendan:
  “There has never been, in my estimation, a better dialogue editor than Brendan McDonald… I am in awe of you, Brendan, would you marry me?” (16:45)
• Peter, on Negativland’s open-source ethos:
  “Please come to our shows and record us. Please use this material to make your own object.” (24:42)
• Marc, on modern social media:
  “Everybody is their own brand who have no problems with pushing other brands through their brand… There’s no real integrity.” (07:19)
• Peter, on culture jamming’s mainstream absorption:
  "The tools to make cut up audio, cut up video… it's an accepted part of the discourse. That's what social media is at a certain level." (22:46)
• Peter, on the emotional effect of preservation:
  “Things you don't necessarily perceive are sometimes the key to an emotional experience… it's visceral. You don't even know.” (75:43)
• Marc, on the ‘U2 Incident’:
  “The provocation itself became the controversy… and that kind of fails. The legacy is sort of a shame.” (45:39)
• Marc, on analog vs digital:
  “It's like using, you know, CDs as a source for vinyl reissues.” (65:08)
• Peter, on the unknowable audience for preservation:
  “Who are you doing this for? Five people. Is that satisfying?” (73:56)
  “But it’s important in a time where authoritarian momentum is consciously trying to erase the past.” (74:09)

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Significant Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|---------------| | 05:01 | Introduction of Peter Conheim and Negativland’s cultural context | | 16:02 | Inclusion of Marc’s sampled voice in Negativland’s “Content” track | | 19:27 | Negative Land as Comedy and connection to Firesign Theatre | | 24:43 | Don Joyce’s ashes and the “Chopping Channel” | | 36:11 | KPFA’s 'Over the Edge': Bay Area radio art | | 39:33 | Blindfolding audiences at Negativland shows | | 43:36 | The U2 incident and its aftermath | | 46:25 | RALPH Records, The Residents, and the value of anonymity | | 53:09 | Devo’s mainstreaming and Negativland’s Krautrock roots | | 58:04 | How Peter got into film archiving/restoration | | 65:08 | Analog formats, restoration ethics | | 73:51 | The relevance and purpose of preservation today | | 77:19 | Remix vs. remaster definitions and their implications |

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Tone and Style

The conversation flows organically—full of warmth, mutual respect, and nostalgia, but with an undertone of critique and skepticism regarding the digital present. Both Marc and Peter mix self-deprecation with passionate advocacy for outsider art, always tying personal history back to bigger cultural questions.

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For the Curious Listener

If you’re interested in experimental audio art, the ethics of restoration, the legacy of Bay Area counterculture, or the philosophical quandaries of archiving, this episode is a rich, genuine, and sometimes hilarious meditation on why art matters—even when only five people are watching.

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Listen for:

• Stories of pressing ashes into vinyl (24:48)
• The inside scoop on the Devo Netflix doc and Negativland’s sampling logic (55:25, 16:02)
• Fond, nerdy reminiscences of the Bay Area’s weirdo scenes and the sense of “permission” that anonymity in art can confer (47:56)
• Candid reflections on nostalgia, the slow death of radical art, and why preserving the margins may matter more than ever (74:09)

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No.

[B]

Huh?

[A]

What? So today on the show, I talked to Peter Conheim. Peter Conheim. Who is Peter Conheim? Well, that's a fine question, because Peter Connheim is a film and audio archivist, and he's a musician, multimedia artist. He was a member of the band Negative Land for a long time. And he's a guy that I kind of got to know years ago through him reaching out. He was a fan of the show, and then he sent me a bunch of the Negative Land stuff and things that are adjacent to Negative Land, which was sort of an art. How do you say it? It was a very specific time in the late 80s, early 90s. It was sort of. I don't want to call it Art Roc, but it was art audio. There was a lot of music to it. There was words to it, there was a lot of comedy in it. Most of them are satirical records. They're kind of fascinating. They actually still hold up pretty well and they're kind of off, off the grid a little bit. A lot of people don't know about them, and I didn't either. But I knew of other artists during that time. It was a time where I guess my brain was kind of being blown. I mean, I guess the first Negative Land album comes out in 1980, and they do a bulk of work, you know, 81, 83, 87, 89, 93 and onward they still go now. But I don't know how you would categorize it, except that there was a lot of art going on in the early 80s that was provocative. Culture jamming was a thing. There was a sort of anti consumerism, anti commercialism art going on. And, you know, Jello Biafra was ranting and raving. Alternative Tentacles records was going on. There was just this proliferation of performance art and performance art adjacent stuff that was very curious to me. And I remember it having an impact on me walking around New York, certainly In the later 80s, you know, World War 3, illustrated, Adbusters magazine, all the performance artists that sort of came through the Lower east side. It was like it was a vital time of. Of energy that had purpose. A lot of the anti consumerism stuff really resonated with me. And now, like a lot of that, that energy is just gone because everybody is fucking sold out. Nobody is critical of consumerism. Everybody is their own brand who have no problems with pushing other brands through their brand. That's the whole. That's the whole game now. So there's no real integrity on the level of what determines, you know, what real art is. Art with purpose, art with a socially active purpose. It just, it doesn't. I don't believe it does exist to a certain point, but only in clips driven by influencers of one kind or another, kind of delivered in the context of whatever platform expectations there are in order for them to get their grift going. I guess the reason I'm framing all this is that there was a type of art going on, and Negative Land certainly falls within that, where it wasn't about being commercial, it was about making a stand or being abstract or absurdist in relation to, and in response to mediocrity, consumer culture, status quo of whatever. It was almost like an explosion of fuck you, we're here and you can go fuck yourself. And this is why. Or look at me. I don't fit into your paradigm. I'm free. And that kind of art just doesn't. Maybe it exists, but it doesn't have the thrust it used to. Especially if it's just a clip or a reel of a guy doing a thing, you know, you'll pick up some traction. But there was sort of a community around this stuff, and I think it blew a lot of minds. I know I'm one of those guys that needed this type of. You had to go find it. You know, somebody had to turn you onto it. I've told this story before, but I had a guy I knew who worked at a record store, was in a band called Jungle Red that only played twice a year. It was a lot of sound layering and noise. And there were two of them, Steve and Greg. And I remember going to a party, you know, near the university. It must have been in the early 80s, like before I graduated high school. 80, 81. And they were in surgical scrubs and they had borrowed some beat up old guitar, my brothers, that they wanted to tape a baby doll arm to. And it was just this, this cacophony of noise. And Greg was on piano playing dissonant things and Steve was on guitar playing dissonant things. And a lot of the audience was sort of the local kind of out there, not, not hipsters, but artists and weirdos. And you know, there was one guy walking around and, and you could, you could, you know, pay him a dollar to stick a pin through his nipple. You know, it was that kind of party, right? Who, who hasn't been to that kind of party? But I, I just remember that a lot of the audience was sort of like the kind of hipster, artsy gay contingent of Albuquerque and, and Larue. Steve Larue, the leader of Jungle Red, had brought his entire collection of antique Fiesta wear ceramics. And during the performance, during the cacophony of noise, he was breaking one piece at a time with a hammer. And just the layers of that sound, the drone of the piano and the feedback of the guitar, and just a large group of gay men who were just like, no. Oh God no. It was layered performance. I'm not saying it had intent, but it did. There was intention there, but it wasn't a commentary on other, on anything other than we are out there and this place where we are exists. If you want to make the journey, if not with us, take it into your own hands and find some artistic space where you can scream your fucking head off and fucking just say fuck. You to the world so you can feel a sense of freedom. It was just a period of time where people in small artistic communities felt like what they were saying made a difference, and that evolved or came out of or ran alongside of early punk rock and just people pushing the envelope in a visceral way, usually with their own operation. Not well produced necessarily, or if it was produced, it was produced within the little world that they were in. And there was nothing about it that was meant for consumer culture. So its very existence was a reflection and a pushback on that. And I'm old enough to remember that stuff having a profound impact on my head and on what was possible. I can't say that I'm living that life or that it's what I do per se, but it certainly informed me a lot of who I am. And as I was speaking of the last time about Instead of looking at it as nostalgia, look at it as the building blocks of your sense of self. So look, I'll be introducing a screening of McCabe and Mrs. Miller at the Aero Theater this Saturday, August 23rd. Also, I'll be back at Largo with the band on Wednesday, September 10th. For links you can go to wtfpod.com tour Wait, I'll also be a Largo? Oh, that's sold out. Sorry, I'm there on the 28th, but I believe it's it's sold out. That's crazy. I don't usually sell out that quick there. I guess they're expecting something. Look folks, one thing I've learned about myself is I have a very reactive brain. When something happens, especially if it seems threatening, my brain goes on fire, kind of like an alarm. And I got to tell you, it can be exhausting. Maybe that's why Simplisafe is so comforting. Because SimpliSafe is proactive, not reactive. And when you want to protect the things in life that mean the most to you, it's best to have home security that's thinking about solving problems before they happen. 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[C]

Participate content.

[A]

Never forget the fact that we are all just content. That anything you put out there, your content, we are all just potential content for someone else's needs. I think people are happy to participate. There's just, you know, hundreds of people rolling their dice, throwing their hat into the content, providing ring content forever. Make it mandatory content.

[C]

You don't have to pay people to participate.

[A]

Your content, my content. You're forced to participate. Content is eternal.

[C]

Can I. Before I forget, I just. I. Cause I know this show and I know how this works. And I know Brendan is gonna listen to everything, and I know he's gonna do his work. Brendan, I'm talking to you now.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I want to tell you, there has never been, in my estimation, a better dialogue editor than Brendan McDonald. I'm just gonna say this right now. When I first started listening to the show 14 years ago, it was around The Time of God. You know, Andy Kaufman's.

[A]

Oh, Zamuda.

[C]

Zamuda.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

200 something.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I thought, wow, it's amazing how this show is not even edited. Like, these conversations just flow and I don't hear any edits. Cause I've been doing audio editing a great deal of my life. And I live for the perfect splice. I live for the crossfade. I live to hide the glitch. And it took me a long time to realize that these shows were edited. Cause you're so fucking good, Brandon.

[A]

Oh, yeah, man. He's the best. And tell the people just how much time that can take. I mean. Yeah, hours. Hours.

[C]

I mean, to do two shows a week for all this time. You're Obviously your efforts, but Brendan's efforts as the editor.

[A]

Oh, God, crazy.

[C]

Now you get into a rhythm when you start doing audio editing or any kind of editing, of course, you know, and you find your flow.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, your tricks.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But I just. I am in awe of you. Brendan, would you marry me?

[A]

Oh, you're married.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's all settled with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, you have been on the periphery of this show for a long time. And I would say, you know, that your engagement with me has been, you know, sort of. I'm very reluctant to make new friends. And, you know, your persistence was. It became sort of like, what does this guy want?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then, like, he's sending me all these records. And then the resentment happened. And I'm like, I'm not even going to listen to these records.

[C]

And then I am the result of your parasocial relationship with your fans. I am the tragic. I'm the tragic. And yet look what happened.

[A]

No, but I think ultimately, you know, that for me, in sort of getting to know you a little bit. And then also we have an Albuquerque connection in that you ran the Guild Theater. But I think I was gone by then.

[C]

Yeah, 2000. Oh, yeah, you were long gone. 2003 to 8.

[A]

But, you know, when in sort of engaging with the Negative Land stuff and realizing the circle of artists that you were involved with. And I think, you know, from listening to this show that there is a period of my life where a lot of that type of stuff was introduced to me, but I have no context for it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. And I still really don't because Negative Land and all that work. These are really comedy records. A lot of them.

[C]

Oh, sure, of course.

[A]

And they're comedy records in the tradition of probably Fire Signature. Absolutely. In some way.

[C]

Oh, fireside Theater is a huge influence on negative lands. Radio art, specifically.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But I gotta preface this by saying I've been out of negative land. Now. I eventually did quit. I was in it for 20 years, 20 long years. So I've moved on. But I'm happy. Happy to talk about what happened in that period.

[A]

Well, I think it's important for me because I always gravitated to that. There was a period where I was reading research and research laboratories in San Francisco and what was going on there, you know, like, you know, Biafra's on a negative land record. There's this crew of people that were doing something a little more elevated than punk rock with political intent and social disruption intent. You know, Adbusters magazine was, like, very big for me for a while and stuff. Like, someone just sent me this, like, these stickers. They just say, don't trust the algorithm.

[C]

Yeah, right. And this was very much in the same mindset.

[A]

That's right. There was a radical idea to doing this and to planting these messages. And while re listening and listening to some of the negative land stuff for the first time over the last few days, that I started to realize that the idea of culture jamming, which was a real thing, whereas you're gonna create media that's going to infect the broader media almost as a virus, to reveal the truth of its impact and domination on our consciousness.

[C]

Right. Well said. Sure.

[A]

And that there were artists that would do this stuff, and when it was a smaller media landscape, it sometimes was possible.

[C]

That's a huge distinction, I think.

[A]

But what I realized this morning is that culture jamming, the impact now, because when you listen to it into the way that you layer sort of rhythm in almost a hypnotic way with found footage, audio footage, and things that you're saying and bits and pieces of writing, and even on the last record. Me.

[C]

Yes, that's right. I'm sorry, you are on that record. Yes.

[A]

On the cut content.

[C]

That's right. We made a. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

The impact is, I think, as powerful, but because we are all active parts, either, you know, passively or not. But actually not passively of the media. Right. Certainly because of engagement and the way life works now. Is that the impact of culture jamming, it happens inside you.

[C]

Yeah. And it's also completely 100% mainstreamed, and it is culture. Culture jamming is culture, is advertising, is everything now.

[A]

But to reveal the truth of what you're trying to do, dismantle media's power and control on every level. Like, I had an internal experience with it. That I was listening to what was going on on the last record and I realized that our brains are so integrated into it now that the revelation is not going to come outside you.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's going to be an indictment of your engagement.

[C]

Interesting.

[A]

Right?

[C]

I think that's true. I think that's true.

[A]

So. So it still works. Yeah, you know, but. But I'm sure the audience for it is limited.

[C]

Well, I think the audience is limited because I'm just circling back to the idea that it's kind of like predominant culture now. Is that the tools to make cut up audio, cut up video. We are so into a whole nother. Obviously we don't even have to use the term AI, But I mean, we are in a whole nother landscape where it's an accepted part of the discourse to be commenting on something and chopping it up into pieces one way or the other. Like, that's just. That is the way we. That's what social media essentially is at a certain level. Right.

[A]

But that's a corporate space. So on the basis of this, and this may be an intellectual point that, you know, you're creating stuff to, you know, specifically, you know, to honor the construct or the context of the social media platform. Right. So the free thinking part of it or the external art part of it is no longer operative.

[C]

Right, right.

[A]

And because it's like that song that you sampled me on, that it's all content and that if you want to make content that has traction, you have to honor the algorithm's appetite. So the freedom of thinking and the freedom of expression is tragically limited to that context, no matter what you think. Right.

[C]

Okay, that's fair.

[A]

Yeah. So when you listen to Negative Land in the early stuff and the albums that you were involved with, that this is stuff done on an independent label that you guys ran and then, you.

[C]

Know, it was not always. That's a whole part of the trajectory is that we were on SST punk label.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That got a little dicey.

[C]

It got a little dicey.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But my point is, is that this is real independent art. Right. So this is.

[C]

That was always the idea. And it was always. And it was free and it was. You could take it and do with it. What you wanted was a big part of it, you know, no copyright, you know.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Please come to our shows and record us. Please use this material to make your own object.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And then we. And then we went all the way with that idea. After one of the early members and critical members, Don Joyce, when he died, I suggested we take his ashes and we include them in the next album, which was all about chopping up culture. And he became the album. And so a thousand copies went out with his ashes. I don't know if I gave you.

[A]

One of those, but his album was that.

[C]

That's called the Chopping Channel. And we gave his.

[A]

Did he sign off on that?

[C]

He was dead.

[A]

I know, but you didn't discuss it before.

[C]

No, this idea came up not long after he died. And his whole idea of making this art in the first place was that it was essentially free, that it was open source before we were really calling it that. And so I think he would have really appreciated it because not only did we put him into the context of the record physically as his being, but you actually got tape fragments from his actual work with each album. So he was literally giving himself and the art away at the same time as part of the project, which in itself, this album, this is ridiculous concept, was that you could just have a shopping channel that sells, like, you know, absolutely nothing. And I don't mean products. I mean, like, you know, the world. I mean, like, literally ludicrous, absolutely dark ideas.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it sort of like, all came full circle for me when we did that, because he, you know, sure, he didn't sign off on it, but nobody, ever, nobody from his internal circle of which was very small, pushed back on that idea.

[A]

You know, where does it start for you? Where did you come from?

[C]

I grew up in Berkeley.

[A]

And so you're a little younger than me.

[C]

Yeah, I was 57 last week.

[A]

Right. So we missed the 60s in earnest and we just dealt with the crashing wave of it and picked our pieces.

[C]

Right. I grew up in the. With the Grateful Dead playing at the Greek Theater and, like, watching. Watching people come out, come from, you know, Concord at Pleasant Hill and literally change out of their Izod shirts to their tie dyes, like, on the street.

[B]

Hey, dude, let's go.

[C]

To show.

[A]

That was my Concord out by Walnut Creek, Correct?

[C]

Yes, yes. Which is, you know, people think that the Trump phenomenon is excluded from the Bay Area. Oh, no, no. You just need to go through that tunnel and you are in. Yeah, yeah. I grew up in Berkeley and, like.

[A]

Were your parents in academics?

[C]

No, no. It's really interesting. They were very clerical type people. My father worked in, like, business administration of some low level sort. He was always angry. My mother was a schoolteacher and a real estate agent simultaneously. Total workaholics.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I was an only child.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So they pretty much just let me go you know, I've spent. I've spent some time hearing about some of the things that, you know, your folks, the way they encouraged you, in a way, because for all the shit that you've talked about them, they cut us loose. They cut you loose. But they also. I mean, your mother was a painter, so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, it was there.

[C]

Whereas in my family, my mother sang in the San Francisco Symphony Chorus for, like, decades until she no longer could.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But art was a kind of an afterthought, you know, and so they just didn't know what to do with me. And I would just sit there and do tape edits on quarter inch tape.

[A]

When you were how old?

[C]

Six, seven.

[A]

So you became fascinated with that shit?

[C]

Totally. I mean, at one point, you know how, like, the stereo Beatles records of the time, like, Help and whatever, they're mixed in this horrible way where the vocals are on one side, guitars on the other side. And once I figured that out at, like, age 7 or something, and I thought, well, shit, why don't I just strip out John's vocal of you Got to Hide your love away, slow the tape machine down, and then do a ridiculous cartoon Martian voice singing the song. And like, oh, that was easy. It worked. I thought of it and it worked like that. It was like no effort. So that's the kind of crap I was doing in my room.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then I started to do incredibly badly academically at school. Around junior high, things started to slip.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So, like, my father's bright idea. This is good. His bright idea was to get me to do my homework since he knew that I was into electronics and stereos and all this shit. And I had it all built into a closet in my bedroom. A rack, basically. Right. Of all my goodies, which he helped me put in because he was generous and an asshole at the same time. He was an incredibly dark, depressed asshole who was generous.

[A]

But he was excited. You were excited about something.

[C]

Maybe. I don't think I ever actually. Okay, let's say yes.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And his idea of getting me to do my homework was to install a timer so that at 8pm I had my own phone line in there, too. Like, I paid for my landline, all that. A switch would be thrown at 8 that I could not get into. And it would cut off the power to the closet and the telephone. I would have complete blackout at 8.

[A]

Early adapter to parental controls.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it was utterly, utterly fruitless endeavor because, of course, all it did was just make me mad. And I'm not gonna say oh, it's time to do my homework now. Great. This means I should just do some work.

[A]

He radicalized you against authority as the beginning of it.

[C]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

So this is when you're in high school.

[C]

Yeah. Junior high and eighth grade.

[A]

Are you doing something that you. With all this equipment that you show other people and that you.

[C]

We used to make. I had a gang of people that started doing audio sort of like radio plays.

[A]

So there's a full sort of like audio nerd community that you're.

[C]

Yeah, I wouldn't call it a community, but I.

[A]

But you guys.

[C]

A little lint ball?

[A]

No, but. But it's like a. You know, the weird thing about nerdism is, you know, the, the, the. The sort of obsessive focus on a specific thing that, you know, hopefully to live a life of a full fledged nerd keeps growing with you.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[A]

And. And you can figure out how to use it. Is. Is specific.

[C]

Well, here's. This is an interesting difference, I think, between you and me knowing you from. From the podcast and all you've talked about, about your childhood. I mean, I'm correct in saying that you were kind of a seeker, right? I mean, you kind of tried things on. You moved through high school. Kind of like, you know, you'd have a phase.

[A]

You have a leather jacket phase or self seeker, right? Self seeker, yeah, but not like a spiritual seeker, but I wanted to be part of.

[C]

So that's a big difference between us and our upbringings is that I knew pretty much what I liked, and I knew there weren't very many people that were into the same shit. And I had no connections with a lot of people in school. And so I just concentrated on that stuff and just did it all through high school. And that turned into making films, which were then Super 8. Then they became video with the same gang of people that I was doing.

[A]

The audio with in high school.

[C]

In high school?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then I dropped out of high school. Yeah, I left in 11th grade.

[A]

Well, that's good because, you know, then you have full control and fully actualized ability to express yourself in the way that you were totally confident in, whereas I am too. But it's just charm based.

[C]

But we all need. We need. Yes, but we need those like Gus Blaisdells like you had in Albuquerque.

[A]

Yeah, well, that was. Yeah, for sure. Well, who was your guy?

[C]

I had a friend that I worked at my first video.

[A]

Did you know Gus? Did we talk about that?

[C]

We talked about him, but he was. I think his store is closed by the Time I was there, there was a bookstore right across from the Guild that I don't think. I think Jerry is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, it's Jerry's. Yeah. He was a friend of Gus's. And we met when you and I went to see that movie at the Guild. That time when I was there, we met Nikki, his daughter.

[C]

His daughter, Right.

[A]

It was all kind of full circle. But, yeah, you. But Jerry was the guy that had the place across from the Guild. Who was your gut?

[C]

So I worked in a video store from 14 to. Well, I worked him for, like, 13 years. But my first gig, there was a guy named Zoltan. Zoltan Dare. A couple years older than me, just the right age, like the older brother I never had. And he got me into all kinds of frenzy shit, the biggest one being Cannes. When I first heard Cannes, that just. I didn't understand how that music was being made. And I've actually been playing now with Malcolm, the singer of Cannes, for 22 years.

[A]

Because when I got turned onto it early on, you know, I had a cassette of the greatest hits when I was in New York in the 90s. I couldn't walk in because I was trying to lock into Cannes and Throbbing Gristle.

[C]

But that was pretty different.

[A]

No, I know, But. But there. There were these sort of fringe things that, you know, certain people were like, this is the shit. And I'm sure that reading the research books, because, you know, what's. What's their name from Throbbing Gristle.

[C]

Genesis.

[A]

Pr. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was sort of fascinated, like, what is this world? I mean, if it weren't for research, those books. I don't know that I know about it. And if it weren't for Steve Larue.

[C]

That's the record store guy. Right, yeah.

[A]

Who you didn't know.

[C]

Right. But you've made a big deal out of, like, how he got you into the Residence and Fred Frith.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Eno. And. Yeah. And he was in this experimental band. He went on to kill himself not long ago, but he was that guy. He's not unlike you in the world that he traversed or what he was trying to do. And, you know, that can be a lonely place. Obviously.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So this guy Zardo's.

[C]

What's his name would have been good. Zoltan. He was Hungarian. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Right.

[A]

The Zoltan.

[C]

The penis is evil.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Right there. Was it. Yeah, that's right. The gun is good. The penis.

[A]

Was that Sean Connery?

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[C]

Yes. Loincloth.

[A]

But.

[B]

But. Yeah.

[C]

So time.

[A]

So you were at that point. So a video store for that long. So that sort of informs the whole film nerd thing.

[C]

Totally. Cause I always. I thought I would be a filmmaker, and then I kind of gave that up. I thought I might be a film critic kind of gave that up. But it all revolved around. Sure. The social connections I made at that video. I mean, a lot of video store people have this. Tarantino's got this backstory. The guy that made Clerks, Kevin Smith.

[A]

Kevin Smith, Yeah.

[C]

You know, it's like a social place, but it allowed you to be extreme, deep nerd on the subjects you like.

[A]

Well, do you remember Steve's place, the Naked Eye on Lower Hayes?

[C]

Oh, sh. Of course.

[A]

Yeah. When I was living in San Francisco, I was there all the time talking to those little. Those nerds and Steve. But that was a good video story.

[C]

The Naked Eye was great. Leathertongue. Great. There are a bunch of them there. You know what I actually got from. I don't think it was naked. I think it was Leathertongue.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

They used to rent the Chuck Berry P video.

[A]

Sure, I remember that. Well, that was that time, dude, where this is all that kind of. There was a point in the alt world where found footage and morbid fascination drove this sort of underground video barter world. The one of. What's his name? From Pennsylvania, blown his head off. Bud Dwyer.

[C]

I couldn't handle that.

[A]

That was a big one.

[C]

That disturbs me to this day because.

[A]

My good friend is Bullware, and he ran the Nose for years.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

And this was all on the periphery of what you were doing, but a generation a little later, probably.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

We were a generation after, because Bullware.

[A]

Was doing the Nose in the early 90s. So maybe it's actually.

[C]

No, it is the same time. Yeah, it is the same time. I came into negative land in 95 or 6, and the nose, I think was. Had stopped. But. That's right. It's a radio. We're contemporaries.

[A]

But. So how do you get from the video store to having a, you know, an esthetic, you know, that lends itself to joining up with Negative Land? What is the process?

[C]

Well, the thing about Negative Land was that it's still on. Is that on kpf?

[A]

Is it a collective?

[C]

Yeah, it's a collective, but it's down to only really 12 of the people that started in 78, 79. There was a radio. Still is a radio show on kpfa. It's called over the Edge. It's every Thursday at midnight. And my friend who kind of came into the band. Late John Lydecker. His. His performance name is Wobbly. He took over after Don died. Don died pretty suddenly. I mean, he'd been sick, but he did a broadcast pretty much all the way up until he was hospitalized. Yeah, well, that show has been on since 1981 or late 80. So a lot of us who grew up in the Bay Area who were, you know, radio weirdos and just like. Like flipping through the channels.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If you were up late, you would come across this completely fucked up collage show, which was like what the Fire Sign Theater was doing in the 60s, only, I would argue, denser and further out because of the level of tape manipulation and crazy shit and probably rhythm.

[A]

Well, I guess.

[C]

Well, it. Eventually percussion. It became that sometimes the band, we would go in and actually play on the show and actually bring instruments and play.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Most of the time when we did the show as a group, and I assume it still happens, is that you're not really. You don't necessarily bring in a lot of instruments. You're bringing in tape sources and, you know, whatever. But anyway, I listened to over the Edge, like a lot of my weirdest friends around 1984, and the same guy as Ultan. I was like, oh, I love that show. And one thing led to another. Find the record. And, you know, it's. I only got drafted into it just because we were kind of all running in the same weird circles, you know, I worked at a record store. One of the guys was who used to be in Negative nine. No longer is. He was there. We're all connected, you know, and just. They needed someone else, you know, and it just. Yeah, the video store pretty much just, I think, primed me to be a film preservationist and restorationist, which is my general gig. It's my more regular gig.

[A]

No, I know, and I know that's what you do now. And that's a sort of insulated but important little world.

[C]

Very insulated.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the truth is, like, you know, you can't diminish 20 years.

[C]

No.

[A]

Of active engagement in satirical music.

[C]

No, it was a very, very important part of my life. And we had some great tours. We had. Yes.

[A]

But I just think it's like. It's interesting to me as I get older and you think about what is the remaining audience for these things that were important to us when we were younger. And it's just old guys. But the weird thing is in listening to. Like, you weren't involved. You were involved in True False. Cause I'm on that kind of sort.

[C]

Of that's a controversy that was edited after I split. But a lot of my material's in there. Yeah, sure.

[A]

Yeah. But the ones you were involved with, you know, these are full records and also Monopos, which seems to be more musical.

[C]

That's correct.

[A]

But the negative ones is that you guys tackled a theme and, you know, through found footage and just your own poetics, you know, kind of took it down and expanded it and put the listener in the position of having a hallucinatory experience through audio that would reveal their part in it.

[C]

And we made the audience sit blindfolded for one tour because it was a radio show. So we handed out hundreds of blindfolds and we would look out into the audience. And the whole idea was, there's nothing to see here. This is a radio show.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So go inside your head. And people actually did. It was totally insane. For two hours, they would sit there, the pinata blindfold over their eyes.

[A]

But that is the nature of audio in general, the power of it. I mean, it's why Brendan and I stayed, you know, audio. But in the times during.

[C]

Thank fucking God, by the way, can.

[A]

I just say thank you, because I don't look good.

[C]

You know, I'm the one that has, I guess, had to tell you this. No, it's. The YouTube podcast phenomenon has bummed me out to such an extent, because this is a diversion. But you want to listen to something, not necessarily as an active participant on a fucking screen. You want to have it in your world. But the distraction of having to look at people who are sitting on a mic like this. I don't get it. It's the goofiest.

[A]

And the fact that that's become the dominant sort of entertainment structure to me, like, in being the old guy yelling at the burning sky, you're just lowering the bar because people will adapt. And I think that, again, coming back to negative land, is that most of those records, through their themes, whether they're religion or data or politics or media in general, commercial consumerism, is that it puts you as the listener in the hot seat. And if you let it happen, you can reassess in a very real way your part in it. And also how these things that dominate our consciousness, you know, fuck with our heads.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And sometimes we were actually specifically kind of didactic about that. We try not to be didactic, but there were times where we did. Like there was a. In Dyspepsi, which was one of the first records I worked on, which is all about the cola wars and the bullshit that's just a meditation on like, advertising and bad ideas. But inside it actually has a thing that says boycotts work. And here's how you. You know, we actually advocated. Which was sort of stepping over a weird line. Whereas I think, for the most part, the best work doesn't actually advocate in that directly.

[A]

Well, that's the shift from being an anarchist to ideologue.

[C]

Yeah, okay, sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, there's a point where, you know, it's same with sometimes what I do. It's like you get to this point where you're putting out enough of your expression to sort of create the art and make the point through the art. And then one day you're like, fuck this. Here's where you call, right? Here's where you write. This is where the thing is happening.

[C]

Here's where you march. That's right. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's an interesting step because they're, you know, in the world of marginalized artists, that. That is the first step of selling out.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[A]

You know, and it's kind of odd, like, to me, because I. I'm kind of geared towards that. You know, even that stuff where, you know, alternative tentacles was doing some stuff, I guess, you know. Are you serious with mondo 2000 was on the.

[C]

That was a really weird period, actually.

[A]

On the tip of that, when he kind of took over culture in San Francisco at the beginning of the tech thing, where everybody was idealistic and freaks.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Like. And also, like, you know, I remember the, you know, John was it John Giorno and Laurie Anderson and William Burroughs, they made that record, the three different pieces that. It's all of a piece of a type of art. And Laurie Anderson, I think points plays big in it, but the fact is that it has legs and it is not dated and that some of it precedes things that were used in hip hop totally. Or at least were happening simultaneously for different reasons. Because ultimately Negative Land and the ideology of it was we're against pop culture, period. But then it gets absorbed. And if you could walk me through it, seems like the U2 incident, which you were part of.

[C]

No, I came in right as that was as the ashes were settling.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But I wasn't on that.

[A]

But that seemed to have a true kind of human and legal impact on the nature of sampling. Right.

[C]

You know, not. That case didn't so much. It was more that case. For those who don't know, Negative land did a 12 inch episode that was called U2. It was a brazen like, you know, thumbnails.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If I had been in the band at that time, which was again, just like right around the corner, I probably would have been one of the people that would be putting the brakes on it. And let's not poke the bear to this extent. I would have wanted to have poked the bear less obviously. And when I say obvious. The record was designed to be manipulative. It had the words, the letters U2 in enormous letters on the COVID and Negative Land in small letters. And the world was waiting for the next U2 record after Joshua Tree or whichever it was. And so this was like a deliberate. Like, we're gonna see how this goes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And of course it failed, right?

[A]

I mean, it failed because you got sued.

[C]

Because we got. Well, we didn't get sued. The record was stopped. But then there was a countersuit from the label at the time, sst, who blamed Negative Land for, you know, not holding up their end of the bargain to handle the legal responsibility. And it just became this disgusting kerfuffle. But my feeling as the dust settled on that one was the record itself is, I think, is great. The record is funny. I mean, if anybody has not heard it, it's widely available, but, you know, it's known for having this terrific Casey K. Sam outtake that I'm assuming you're familiar with, where he's cussing, he's cussing. And it's edited in such a way. Don so brilliantly edited it so that it kind of sounds like he's going after you too, but he really isn't. I mean, you know, it's just this little sleight of hand, but it's great. And the thing is that it was such a provocation that like, the provocation itself became the controversy. The provocation itself overshadowed the fact that it was this pretty layered, great piece of cut up art, you know. And that's where I think it kind of fails. That's where I think that the legacy is sort of a shame.

[A]

It's overshadowed.

[C]

It's overshadowed the work itself. And there's a lot of, you know, you can read all about this, there's a lot of details, but once that happened, we were really gun shy about the Dyspepsi record. And we did not put the letters P S I on the front of the record originally because we were so afraid and nothing happened.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So it's like. And in the end we. Geez, did I say that? I mean, someone bootlegged the U2 record and it was re released and it's been out for 20 years.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So nobody gives a fuck. It was like. It was bad. It was. It was a provocation that poked the right bear. Did it serve its purpose in that way? Sure. But was that way as good as the art itself? I don't think so. I think the record's better than that.

[A]

But how does, like. And sort of fold in the RALPH Records crew into. Because, like, you know, as a producer, as being part of, you know, a lot of different records, you know, Tuxedo Moon and the Residents and I guess Steve Reich as well.

[C]

No, I don't think Reich had. Oh, yeah, but okay, Frith did. Frith had records on. Yeah. MX80 sound, Tuxedo Moon, Frith Chrome. Everybody had their. A lot of people from San Francisco and around had.

[A]

Because, like, they're. They're all still a mystery to me. And I know they're probably. I don't even know who's alive from the original crew. And they're kind of out there. But, like, you know, I was always sort of fascinated with it, but again, for me, it happened in a pure space. I had no context for it. I was just sort of like, where is this fucked up stuff coming from? You know, Fred Frith is like some like. I can't picture these guys.

[C]

You've never seen Frith play?

[A]

No.

[C]

Oh, he's a master.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Fantastic guitar player.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Maybe I have seen video, but specifically the guys who were wearing costumes.

[C]

The Residents themselves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was the manifesto of that crew?

[C]

Well, I'm actually really glad you brought them up because they are hugely. They loom large over me. But also, I think anyone who grew up in the 70s and 80s in the Bay Area and was interested in making art.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think about them a lot because of their anonymous stance, the eyeballs.

[A]

Well, I talked to Cindy, Sarah Sherman about that.

[C]

Okay. All right.

[A]

And she's like a big residence person. Yeah, of course.

[C]

The thing is, they gave permission. I think I'll just speak personally. They gave me permission at a really young age to be anonymous, to not to actually be able to do whatever the fuck you want to get away with without putting your name out there. And the Negative Land records generally didn't have our names on them for a long time. That was partly in tribute to that. It was an endless band argument, you know, and credits would come up. But the Residents were like. I mean, they were fucked up hippies. From the South. Yeah, From Louisiana. They moved to San Francisco in the Summer of Love or right after like 69 yeah. To be. To make art. And they had money. I mean, it's not. I don't know how well known that. I think it's in the documentary. I think it's in the documentary is that they had. One of the people in the band had a. If not a trust fund. He had some kind of, you know, line.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So they were able to basically get into record making filmmaking, actual 16 millimeter filmmaking. Massive set building, theater design.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

In a warehouse that they could just run wild in. I mean, it was fantastic.

[A]

So this was the early 70s. Okay. So it was like. Because the original model for that, in terms of the. The freaks, was the acid test. So. So then, you know, you realize that you can, you know, build. Build your zone and trip out.

[C]

Yeah. There's, there's, there's inevitable crossover.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because of course the residents are like hallucinatory, you know. Of course.

[A]

Of course.

[C]

Absolutely. And they were doing, you know, copious amounts of. Of everything. I'm sure everybody did was and is to a degree. But yeah, the residents just, they, they. I mean, without giving away too much, the. The two main members of what's called the Cryptic Corporation, which is their spokespersons.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

They've always been their public face.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Hardy Fox and Homer Flynn, their actual fucking names. Which is just the best.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, Hardy died, so it's now pretty much just Homer.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, steering the Cryptic Corporation and speaking on behalf of the band.

[A]

And the, the idea was, you know, just art for art's sake. Go fuck yourself.

[C]

Well, I wasn't there, so, I mean, what am I?

[A]

No, but I mean, how do you take it in?

[C]

Okay, well, one of their first projects was to actually send a tape of really some of their most fucked up music ever, like unlistenably fucked up shit to Warner Brothers.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that eventually came out as, like recently, actually, relatively as the Warner Brothers album is what it was known as. They send it to them as a demo.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and, and it came. The legend is that it was returned from Warner's address to resident.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So that's how they got their name. So. Yeah, that. What else is that than a fuck you? I mean, if you listen to any of that shit, I mean, there's a. There's a cut on there that's something like, you know, Jimi Hendrix's penis caught fire and elevated my head. I mean, it's like that. I'm paraphrased, but it's. There's. In no world would this ever even, even in like a Zappa be Part world of that.

[A]

Right.

[C]

There's no way that record would have come out. So that's a. Fuck you. Sure. What else?

[A]

But, but, but in the Zappa Beefheart world, it was like, you know, we demand you to pay attention to our music because it's better.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And in the restaurants world, it's like we want you to listen to our noise because we think you suck.

[C]

Okay. Or we, I don't know if we think you suck. I, I, I think I push against that. I think, I think, I mean, Chew.

[A]

Gum, chew, chew gum. Chew gum, gum. Chew gum, chew, chew gum.

[C]

Oh, that one went deep for you. Yeah, I could tell. Absolutely.

[A]

And the whole. The disco record.

[C]

Yeah, of course. Which is just. Which is just a fake disco 12 inch of their eskimo record.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Well, they'll, the. Well, I thought that's what the Eskimo record was called.

[C]

No, disco is the 12 inch disco remix.

[A]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[C]

Of Eskimo. Which is extremely pointless.

[A]

Yes, Eskimo is great. And then there was the, the James Brown, George Gershwin.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Was that with the two, or is.

[C]

It the George and James?

[A]

George and James, yeah.

[C]

Then they did Elvis and I'm like.

[A]

What the fuck is this?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is this now? You know, there was just this constant sort of like, what are they trying to do?

[C]

Right. I mean, if you've watched any of their films. Have you seen their films, their short films?

[A]

I think I've seen a video.

[C]

That's what I mean when I say a video. They were made on film. I kind of use the terms interchangeable. I restored all of their films some years ago, and now you can see them in really nice quality and all that. Their films are absolutely unlike anything else from, like, 1974. I mean, they're so. It's really hard to qualify this and say, like, oh, this is just this.

[A]

Right, right.

[C]

This is a, this is, this is a, this is a nose thumb. Because the sets that they built for these things, the detail, it's like they wanted to inhabit a world.

[A]

Right.

[C]

The records inhabit a similar world. Sure. It's parody on a level. Because Eskimo, they're talking fake Eskimo dialect.

[A]

We want coke. Oh, yeah.

[C]

You know, it's just, like, ridiculous. But those films are true works of art that are, that are really, they're really considered. Yes, they're seriously considered. Devo, same thing. You know his work? I do, I do restoration. Same deal. Like, they were 100% committed to the visual vision and the music vision.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And they did care what people thought? Certainly Devo did. Residents, I don't think had those kind of aspirations.

[A]

But what about Snake Finger?

[C]

Oh, he was in their crew. I mean, he was. Yeah, he just. He fit right in. The thing that I think is really interesting, I think most of the kids today, they don't, they don't really know, you know, is that when the Residents had their RALPH records label, there was so little competition for fucked up shit like that in 77, 89, 80, even up to like 82.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There were so few record labels, there were so few independent labels, period, that if you were the Residents or snake finger, MX, 80, whatever, you made a record on Ralph, you might sell 100,000 records. That number is absurd now 125,000 copies now to Warner Brothers, who might sell 10 million Elvis records in a year or whatever the number is. That's of course nothing. But as an independent, like imagine the amount of people that you could have reached then and did. Yeah, and then, I mean, this is a well tron, well trodden territory. But around Nirvana, like 1992, when Nirvana hit, it all broke open and suddenly independent labels had to compete on a mass scale and there were so many releases. But prior to that, if you made a record and it was. It got someone's attention, there's a good chance it would actually get listened to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Devo kind of mainstream, this for.

[C]

Sure, because they got signed to Warner Brothers in 78.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then they had a hit, you know, in with whippet in 80.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So and how long they've been around? I mean, I talked to Market. Yeah, they've been around 73.

[C]

Yeah, 73.

[A]

But they started not unlike the Residents.

[C]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And it's curiously enough, they both covered Satisfaction.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

Yes, they both have almost simultaneous fucked up versions.

[A]

And you have a long friendship with Mark and you know, and you guys work together, but you don't work on the music per se.

[C]

No, I haven't. Well, I've restored and remastered thousands of hours of the music. We actually made a record called Art Devo. A couple years ago I would have brought you one, but I'm out. Which is all like the most fucked up stuff. The most off the wall creations from the basement from 73 to 77. Yeah. Mostly from Ohio, a little bit of LA, but mostly from Ohio.

[A]

Oh, great.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, all these people, I feel like, swim in the same water. And how I think it ties back to Negative Land is interesting because I think most people don't really make this Connection about Negative Land. But Negative Land, this is again, before my time. But I can say this with authority. Where pretty serious Kraut rock nerds.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So a lot of the rhythms and a lot of the canned stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

A lot of the repetition, A lot of. A lot of the music that's. That exists in the bottom of those Negative Land records is deeply Kraut rock. I mean, the name Negative Land is stolen from a kraut rock band. So it's, it's, it's all.

[A]

Which one?

[C]

Noi. Oh, yeah, they have a song called Negative Land.

[A]

Right. So it's Noi. Kraftwerk can.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Amandul.

[C]

Sure, to a degree. Amandula. Oh, there's so many. I mean.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's finite. But the big ones, I got into that later in life. So that's where the rhythms come from.

[C]

Absolutely. I mean, it's all from the same sort of tribal rhythm, hypnotic rhythms, place. And then like Terry Riley to those of us who are really obsessed with him. Do you ever listen to him at all?

[B]

Yes, yes.

[C]

So, like Terry Riley's early 70s stuff in a similar way where he's like, using tape to accentuate rhythms, keyboard lines, you know, saxophone lines. He's baking loops and using the tape machine as an instrument.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Very much became a Negative Land thing. That was Don's instrument, was playing cart. You know, you're a radio guy. You remember the carts?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So Don would play with. We would go on tour and he would have like. I don't know, I can't remember the number, but let's say at least 100, 150 individual carts of individual samples that were labeled, that were specific to the narrative. And he would just jockey those carts the whole show. It was made for a great show. Like, you could watch the guy, like.

[A]

You know, it's a different type of DJing.

[C]

Absolutely. It is. It's 100% DJing. And he kept using those pretty much until he died.

[A]

Is this pre. Does this predate two turntables and a microphone?

[C]

No, no, no, no, no. You mean in, like, technologically?

[A]

No, no, in the way hip hop works and using, you know, samples and, and turntables. Yeah, it's.

[C]

It's right along the same. It's. It's along the same.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

You know.

[A]

Well, it's interesting too, about the. The cut up method in general, you know, not as, you know, guys and Burroughs conceived of it, but in terms of film and. And music pieces. So I assume that some of the archivists, you know, kind of Matured in, you know, like, finding these old clips and realizing they were lost to time. And that served you because no one knew what the fuck it was from.

[C]

Admin Span a lot of its public domain, which helps too.

[A]

Right? And then. And I think that, you know, in documentary, I think the one practitioner of this that is really fully realized as an artist is that Adam Curtis.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And creating. And also, I think David Shields did it a bit with his doc on the Football Player that where, you know, you don't have a narrator, you just have found pieces and you put them together for montage effect.

[C]

Well, did you see John and Yoko one to one. No, dude. Really? It's the best of its kind documentary I've seen in years.

[A]

Really.

[C]

100% archival footage, with one key exception that I won't give away. The music's beautiful, the story's beautiful. It just focuses on that period of time when they were in their Greenwich Village apartment before the Dakota. And then it kind of like the book ends it with the Dakota. But it's a must because all it does is use historical footage as a narrative. It's genius. It's genius.

[A]

Oh, I gotta watch it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But the montage effect of found. When you use found footage in montage, you are able to transcend time and space to create a narrative without a narrator. And it's great.

[C]

Yeah. And you could argue Burroughs did that, too, though. Sure. Burroughs took it to a different extreme.

[A]

His idea was that, you know, if you take the paragraph and cut it up and then rearrange it, that you're actually time traveling somehow.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

He had the sort of the Oregon box level of, like, thinking about it.

[A]

But some of it's unreadable.

[B]

But.

[A]

But, you know, you. You like it because of the poetry of it. You know, it's kind of. It is provocative. Yeah, but so how do you decide now? I mean, outside of working with Mother's BA and kind of like curating or at least having in your house enough copies of Negative Lamb Records to send me. Believe me, we all have the boxes of records I thought this would sell.

[C]

I just heard you had all your comedy CDs from the. With the freaks on the COVID Yeah, there's upstairs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I gotta go find those. But when do you walk into film archiving as, you know, a curator and as a mission?

[C]

I used to work at Pacific Film Archive in Berkeley. It was a total clerical kind of thing, film shipping.

[A]

Like your dad.

[C]

Like my dad. Thank you. Wow. Never made that connection. This is why I came on this show, and they would let me write program notes sometimes. Occasionally, I would squeeze my way into, like, some curatorial ideas with the curators that I knew. That led to me owning the Guild Cinema in Albuquerque for a few years and sort of.

[A]

So you're part of the community of curators?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a bunch of us in the Bay Area who have done shows at different venues.

[A]

Well, we did McCabe and Mrs. Miller in a print that you loved. And that's part of me, because I'm not in that world of nerds. I'm like, this fucking movie's fucked up.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

It keeps changing colors. What is going on?

[C]

Yeah, well, that was. That was. That was a. That was a trial by fire, that one. But, no, we are all kind of. A lot of us have curated at different theaters. And I always wanted to do preservation work. I was always obsessed with not just the quality of something. Like the way that Chad Kassim described of, like, I know this can be made better. Like, he had a whole thing on your interview where he said that there has got to be a better master to be derived from this. And that's driven me for the last, like, 25 years of doing this kind of work, roughly. And it started officially with the film that you and Lyn came and saw.

[A]

Right before Spring Night. Summer Night, Yeah.

[C]

Right. Which was a totally obscure little movie from Ohio that nobody'd seen, that we just happened to have delivered to us at the Guild for a thing. And I fell in love with it, and I said, I'm gonna restore this. And that's. It was actually restored before me. Long story. That's kind of what started it. And I just never really wanted to stop doing that. So, you know, in the same way that I have a parasocial relationship with you. When Devo needed some tapes transferred and we started communicating, and I went down to their archive, and I'm like, who the fuck is dealing with all this stuff? And Mark's like, well, nobody. And they're like, well, me. And so I just. Residents. Same thing. The Residents documentary came out. I think it's called the I Scream. I think, yeah, within the last 10 years. And I watched it, and I thought, my God, their films and videos in this documentary look so wretched. Like, these are the worst fucking copies of these things. I know where the originals are because I used to work at the archive where they're stored. And I just reached out to Homer Flynn and said, I want to do this. He said, great, Go have Fun. Sometimes it gets funded from individuals, sometimes I've had grants, whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But that's what drove it. And I just haven't stopped.

[A]

But it's interesting that the drive still in the spirit of sort of not nostalgia, but honoring analog and honoring the past and honoring the integrity of what these original pieces have, that it's not this sort of move to digitize. I mean, that's what everyone's sort of like, got to digitize. Yeah.

[C]

I have a of lot lots to say about that. I mean, you have to work in the digital domain because that's what's available. And it's better.

[A]

It makes it easier.

[C]

Yeah, it's better. I mean, I am far from. I like to refer to some people in my sphere, I guess you could say, as format fetishists.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, here's my favorite example of this. I'm not going to name the director. Want to do the research? You could figure it out. A famous director managed to get Warner Brothers to put out 2001 Space Odyssey on 70 millimeter about, I don't know, five, six, seven years ago before Pandemic. And he made a big deal out of this is, you know, this is what he basically was after. He's like, this is an unrestored version of the film. Yeah, he used words like that. He's like, this is how it was seen in 1968.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Not so.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, that was not true. And as somebody who works in the business a little bit on the fringes, I knew what he was gonna do. And when he did it, it looked fine, but all it was. All it was, was a new print done as good as possible from a mediocre source. It was not. Kubrick would have been rolling over in his grave. And I actually talked to Kubrick's longtime assistant. You've probably seen the film Film Worker. Did you see this documentary about his guy, Leon Vitale? So I talked to Leon about this, and he was mortified because in his mind, this is exactly. This is not honoring the division, but it's honoring someone's idea of like, oh, well, this has never had a digital step, therefore, it's the way it's supposed to be. There's all kinds of arguments you can make in those areas and you can get really into the weeds. But in this particular case, they used a compromised thing to start with, pretending that that's, like, how it was. It's not how it was.

[A]

It's like using, you know, CDs as a source for vinyl reissues.

[C]

100% yeah. Sometimes you, as somebody who does these masters, sometimes you have to do. Sometimes the tape is lost. That's what preservation work is all about. They knew that the money that it would have taken to do a full restoration from the camera negative, the original of 2001, was. They didn't want. Warners, didn't want to spend that money. So instead, they just made these perfectly fine prints. People had a great show, Great, fine. I don't begrudge them that. But the whole idea that, like, somehow that it's unrestored or not restored is a plus. It has no relation to the art. It has no relation to how it was made. It's just the state that it happens to be in now when they go to print it.

[A]

So the idea is, when you restore, you know that, you know, compromises are gonna have to be made for damage, for missing pieces. And that's part of the puzzle and opinions.

[C]

Opinions. Because if the people that made the work are dead, which is a lot of the time with the stuff that I work on. Yeah, you're taking liberties. You know, you are making decisions. You're grading the color a certain way. You try to use the best reference that you have, you know, like an unfaded, perfect reference print. You try to, you know, time to that, for instance.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But you can't. See, partly I got into this because of, like, I have this. I have this weird, like, innate sense of justice. It's this weird sense of justice where it's like, I want the truth to be told, but I'm not on the spectrum about it. I'm not focusing on one part and saying, this is exactly the way it has to be, that's not right. I'm not going to do that. But when you play this game of doing a restoration from a compromised element, and you want to make it as good as possible, a lot of the times you have the chance to make something way better. Way better than it was originally.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

We're doing that with all the Devo films right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Most of them look like they've never looked because the technology wasn't there. The reason why we chose to do that.

[A]

It's a correction.

[C]

It's a correction. Because Devo are still around and they're like, well, of course, if we had the technology, we would have done it that way. It doesn't mean the old version gets thrown in the garbage can.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Right. But it just becomes a relic.

[C]

It becomes a relic. It's not necessarily their intent anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And they had, like. They're Using Devo as an example. They had so many compromises because their budgets were so low.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And now it's like, well, these tools are on the desktop. I can make this so much better. Yeah, let's do that. And everyone gets excited, and that's fine. It's like a whole nother way of restoring something because you're not really restoring. You're reconstructing and you're changing. It's.

[A]

And you're there with the artist to make decisions.

[C]

You hope so.

[A]

Right. But when you're not. But like, when you have Spring Night, Summer Night, which is an odd movie.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it must have been an obsession.

[C]

Oh, deep.

[A]

And you know why that happened? I don't know. In terms of your obsession, because it's not an easy movie, really.

[C]

But it's a pretty beautiful little movie. I mean, it's like, narratively, it's a kind of a beautiful movie. You know, it's just like, man, it's made for nothing. It's made for like $8,000 or something.

[A]

It's like the one about the homeless prostitute woman that. The actress, she was married to. Kazan. Kazan's wife.

[C]

Wanda.

[A]

Yeah, Wanda.

[C]

Wanda. Well, my colleague Ross Lippman, who worked on Spring Night, restored Wanda.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That's a similar zone.

[C]

Totally somewhere zone. But that's like 16 millimeter, super low budget. This was 35 millimeter, beautifully photographed. We knew where the. Yeah, we knew where the negative was. The directors were still alive when we did that. One of them still is that one.

[A]

How do you feel about the restoration?

[C]

Oh, they. They lost their minds. No, they lost their minds.

[A]

Worth the whole journey.

[C]

It was worth the whole journey. I mean, I got that film has such a great story because they were supposed to show at the New York film festival in 1968 with Spring Night, Summer Night, this was gonna be their big coming out party. And they'd labored for five years or whatever it was on this film. At the last minute, the New York Film Festival says, you know, we just got this other film by the John Cassavetes called Faces. We really can't have two kind of like, small time, black and white independent films. So you guys are gonna get bumped.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

So Faces goes on to massive acclaim. No knock on that.

[B]

Great movie.

[C]

And Spring Night disappeared. And then Spring Night was recut by, like, effectively, like a porno distributor. They made them insert sex scenes, and it was a disaster. And then it was gone. So when I came along to put it in its rightful place.

[A]

What was the seed of the obsession, though?

[C]

Because it just.

[A]

You read that story?

[C]

No, no. It just so happened to be programmed into a teeny little touring film festival that the guild got. It was a random.

[A]

In Albuquerque.

[C]

It was a random event. And I saw. I watched it on an airplane on a terrible dvd. I remember I was like flying back from Germany and I. I watched the movie. I was really moved by.

[A]

It's a travel DVD player.

[C]

It was. It was the, you know, the old Max house.

[A]

Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah. The computer. Yeah, Right.

[C]

And I was watching on that and I was by myself on the plane. There was like a stranger sitting next to me. Coach, you know, and. And I started to cry and I turned to the guy and I'm like, I've just seen this beautiful film. And he's like, oh, that's nice. You know, like there was no. But I knew, like, I got to restore this.

[A]

You have a life changing event with a stranger who's just trying to be polite.

[C]

Exactly. Yeah. I'm sorry this makes you so sad, but.

[B]

Bye. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

The German accent always is so good for sympathy.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. It was like an absolutely stereotypical situation.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, that's very nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

They even got the guy's card, you know, like trying to be his friend.

[A]

Are you familiar with Khan?

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[C]

So that's how that happened.

[A]

And so what was the process was the print you saw was without the.

[C]

Print was the correct version.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

The print was. There was one existing print of the correct version which the director held. The negative had been physically re. Spliced into the softcore version.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so we had this whole business of how to put it back together when you physically. I mean, this is again getting into the weeds. But when you've got a film negative, once it's glued and spliced.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You can't really take it apart and recut it without losing frames.

[A]

Right. You.

[C]

You inevitably lose a frame at every single cut. So we had to do it in the computer.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

20, 16, 17. This was still pretty expensive.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so we had to raise the money to do it.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Once we did it. And that's an interesting case because we actually gilded the lily on that one too. There was a weird shot missing from the print, which was their version that was in the cut version. But it was a really good shot that nobody could remember why it was there. And they decided, no, let's put that in. So that's an example of. That's not how it was in 1968. By about 10 seconds. Or 5 seconds.

[A]

But this is a completely engaging and exciting process. It's like bringing Frankenstein to life.

[C]

It is. And it's a total fucking nightmare when you're one. One person. Because you literally just watch stuff frame by frame for weeks, you know, cleaning dust, cleaning dirt.

[A]

Well, in terms of the.

[C]

That was. That one was done with the team. But generally today I'm working mostly by myself.

[A]

And like this one, Victims of Sin.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That Criterion put out.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Because you've done a handful of these movies. But, like, what was the. You know, how did it get from wherever you started to Criterion?

[C]

They were interested in Mexican films from this era. From the producer who's a friend of mine. Her family produced these wonderful.

[A]

The 50s.

[C]

Actually, it started in the early sound era, early 30s.

[A]

Oh, really? Okay.

[C]

30S through the 80s. They had a studio called Calderon, and this was a film that people had loved. It was unavailable. I think she pitched it to them. But in any case, Criterion's doing a couple of her family's films.

[A]

And she asked you, because of your relationship to. What'd you have to do to it?

[C]

We again started back from the original negative.

[A]

Cause she had them.

[C]

Yes, it was nitrate. That one had been completely fucking hammered. Like it had been dragged behind a truck. It was in such terrible. So it took ages to clean that thing up. And it looks gorgeous now. But, yeah, that's a one. Victims of Sin's a wonderful, like, melodrama. Paris Prado, Cuban musical noir. Baby in a garbage can, you know, has everything, you know.

[A]

So what are you working on now?

[C]

Mostly the Devo things.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

The Devo stuff is slowly coming out on their YouTube channel. And then eventually we'll put out a Blu ray. So they made about 16 or 17 videos and films during their height. So I'm just going through them one by one.

[A]

It's nice talking to you about it. Because of your passion for it.

[C]

Where.

[A]

Because I get cynical in that. Like, who's going to watch this shit?

[C]

Right?

[A]

Who are you doing this for?

[C]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Five people. Is that satisfying? But the truth is, it's. It's important in a time where authoritarian momentum is consciously trying to erase the past.

[C]

There's that.

[A]

But, you know, they're not going to, like, you know, pick on, you know, spring night, summer.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[A]

But nonetheless, in people, People's minds, the curiosity, you know, will go away eventually.

[C]

But can I want to pick up on something I heard you say a couple weeks ago? Yeah, maybe. Real recently you mentioned your killer interview with Rodrigo Prieto.

[A]

Yeah, the best.

[C]

That was so good.

[A]

Changed my life. Yeah.

[C]

Right. Now, see, that's an example of someone who is a craftsperson who got into the weeds on technical details and explained, like, why they were so important.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So there's something that I heard you say recently on a show. I can't remember who you were.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Actually, you might have been talking to. Doing your. Your New York.

[A]

Was I talking about my. My production designer and the Kintsugi thing and the impact of poetry.

[C]

Oh, possibly.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

With the wall behind you. The thing that you said about Prieto was you were commenting how he had told you the way he got very specific with certain lenses, maybe even filters.

[A]

For natives and for white people. Right.

[C]

But your reaction was like, well, nobody notices that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So. Yeah. Right. I think most people don't notice that. But one of the things that I think is super interesting about preservation and it goes to mixing. Mastering all forms of this live concert, mixing the things that you don't necessarily perceive are sometimes the key to an emotional experience. If you go to a show, to poetry. Well, yeah, but you don't even. It's, like, visceral. You don't even know.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So, like, if you go to a live show and the sound guy really just loves his, like, gated snare that goes. And it's like. It's taking you out of the music. But nobody says that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If you have it mixed. Right. You may very well have people in the audience who feel something different.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I kind of feel like that's what Pareto was getting to. It's like. It's not like people are gonna see. And like, oh, look at.

[A]

Look at the brilliantly colorized black and white pictures in France at the turn of the century.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Tinting is. I love color tinting. It's beautiful. But I just think there's something there. I think there's, like, a lot of intangibles to this kind of work, whether it's picture or sound that people don't perceive on a surface level, but it's.

[A]

Rooted in something deliberate that doesn't need explanation because the magic of it is in sort of revived.

[C]

Yeah. Or it adds up to an emotional response.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Like, it just gives you something.

[A]

You don't know why it's good because. And I think this goes along with what I said before, is that the depth of the work is important. You can churn out garbage and people will adapt to it and just return it to the garbage. But when something has a depth of process and intention, that the power of it is Transcendent for those who are willing to engage with it.

[C]

Yeah, I think that's well said.

[A]

Good.

[C]

Well said.

[A]

So before we end this up, correct me on what I understood from Chad Kassum about mastering.

[C]

Oh, I believe what that came to was he did a reissue of a Miles record and he was talking about how he went back to the original separate tracks and he did a remix.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Very different than a remaster.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And I think that got. Somehow that got. That got skimmed over because. And it's important because there you go with making radical potential changes in audio. Again, I'm not saying this is a bad thing.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I do tons of remixing. You know, I'm all for it. It's just, it's. It's an interesting distinction that people don't necessarily make.

[A]

And remastering is taking the existing mix.

[C]

Existing mix. Right now you can dick with it quite a bit. As he told you. You can EQ it, you can take.

[A]

Noises out, but you're not making the drums come up high.

[C]

Not really.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Although it's. It's gotten very fucking fuzzy now.

[A]

Because of the tools.

[C]

Because of the tools.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And now there are mastering labs where it's like, I get a mix and I. Not me, but I. An engineer will kick up the drums.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

I've had to deconstruct. I mean, I went to a friend's house who actually had. You'll love this. I think he had the half inch or one inch master multi track of the who's. Can't Explain.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And he broke just the song.

[C]

The song, like the session tape. And we sat there and we listened to each individual track. And then he's like. But you see here how. How Entwistle's bass is mixed in with Keith's Moon Drag. Watch this. And he, like. And he stripped it away digitally. And so all of a sudden you're just hearing the bass. I just. You know, not a dry seat in the house. It was so exciting. So that's like, these tools exist to do fun.

[A]

Well, it's like those remixes that George Martin's kid did. Like Abbey Road.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

And, like, listening to that, you're like, what the fuck?

[C]

Go for it.

[A]

Why'd they take that out?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, but, like, why not? I mean, if the original is there.

[A]

No, no, no. What I'm saying is that, like, it's an interesting entertainment to see these decisions made way in post to elevate certain elements of it. But, you know, outside of technology, and I had this problem with bootlegs too. It's like the decision was made by the artist to do it this way.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And you have to honor that. And that's what you know. Right. It's interesting.

[C]

Right, Right.

[A]

But you know, it's not what the artist intended, which is what you always.

[C]

Want to come back to.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Inevitably, that's what you want to come back to.

[A]

Good talking to you, pal.

[C]

I enjoyed it.

[A]

Good.

[C]

Thank you, Mark.

[A]

There you go. That was a. I enjoyed that conversation again. Peter worked on the new Devo documentary on Netflix, which is streaming now. Hang out for. For a minute. Hey, folks, it's a fast paced world and if you run a business, your customers better be able to get a hold of you right away. If they can't reach you, they'll move on to someone they can. Fast. With OpenPhone, you won't lose any customers by missing their calls. OpenPhone is the number one business phone system that streamlines and scales your customer communications. It works through an app on your phone or computer. So no more carrying two phones or using a landline. And instead of voicemail, OpenPhone gives you an AI agent that can handle calls after hours, answer questions, capture leads, and more. You'll be covered at all times. OpenPhone is offering WTF listeners 20% off your first six [e-mail] WTF. That's O P E N P H O-N E.com WTF. And if you have existing numbers with another service, Open Phone will move them over at no extra charge. Open Phone, no missed calls and no missed customers. Okay? Hey, folks, if you watched my HBO special and want more of my standup full Marin subscribers can now hear my entire 2011 comedy album. This has to be funny. My mother just is. You know, she's got this eating problem. She's been 119 pounds my entire life. And because of that, I am also frightened of food. And I. And I've tried to figure out why, but the only thing I could come up with is that she. The horror to her of having a child that might be overweight was so profound, her fear was just displaced onto me. I really think that for about the first 12 years of my life, my mother just saw me as her fat. That she. I think some part of her thought that if she just ate less, perhaps I would disappear. That she would not have to worry about the fat that was on me that was somehow connected directly to her. No, this has to be funny. To get that bonus episode, plus all the bonus episodes we do twice a week, sign up for the full Marin. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by acast. Here's a soil one Best I could do with one of my favorite songs and it's by Randy Newman, Boomer Lives Monkey and La Fonda Cat Angels Everywhere.