Episode 1674 - Tim Heidecker

Summary

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WTF with Marc Maron – Episode 1674: Tim Heidecker

Release Date: September 1, 2025
Host: Marc Maron
Guest: Tim Heidecker

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Overview:

This episode of WTF brings Tim Heidecker—comedian, actor, musician, and half of the influential “Tim & Eric” duo—back to Maron’s garage. The discussion is a candid, sprawling, and often self-deprecating talk about career longevity, internet culture, comedy’s current climate, creative fulfillment, and the challenge (and necessity) of speaking out in divisive times. Both Maron and Heidecker reflect on what it means to create for a fiercely loyal, if sometimes niche, audience while navigating the toxic feedback loops of the modern internet and the complex responsibilities of public voices in today’s politics and comedy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sixteen Years of WTF & Measuring Life Through Podcasting (00:00–12:38)

• Maron reflects on the 16th anniversary of WTF, having produced over 1,670 episodes.
• The evolution from a messy garage podcast to a central force in comedy/interview culture.
• Marc shares personal milestones—loss, relationships, cats, and the intertwined nature of life and show.
• Notable Quote:
  “I have measured my life through Shure SM7 microphones here in front of these sound waves and across from 1,600-odd people over... 16 years.”
  — Marc Maron [07:34]
• Marc introduces Tim Heidecker and sets up the conversation’s tone: facing aging, legacy, and change.

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2. Aging, Change, and Creative Identity (12:38–18:19)

• Tim admits to feeling a “little claustrophobic” in Marc’s setup, joking about aging and appearance.
• They discuss body image, weight loss, and public scrutiny, especially as public figures.
• Notable Quote:
  “I never got the credit for doing the hard work. I wasn’t using any of that stuff... I lost weight, it’s coming back. I don’t know what to do.”
  — Tim Heidecker [15:03]
• Both joke about the weirdness of seeing old photos, with Tim adding:
  “I can see you without teeth.”
  — Tim Heidecker [14:38]

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3. Internet Commentary and the Toll of Online Culture (18:19–24:31)

• Tim shares his hobby of collecting bizarre, toxic, or hilarious YouTube comments.
• They probe the phenomenon of anonymous trolling, bots vs. real people, the effects of digital hate.
• Discuss building emotional calluses to survive in public as comedians/performers.
• Notable Quote:
  “Some part of me still believes that people are inherently decent, but... I don’t know that that’s true anymore.”
  — Marc Maron [20:31]
• Both admit to being sensitive, probing why criticism hurts and why it’s so intoxicating, despite a lifetime in creative fields.
• Maron frames it as a generational adaptation: “We had to build this callus. If you’re gonna engage with that shit... someone’s gonna say something hurtful. It does hurt for a second.” [21:45]

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4. Tim & Eric, Audience Dynamics, and Online Radicalization (24:31–28:26)

• Maron asks about the early reactions to “Tim & Eric.” Tim describes an immediate outpouring of toxic language, even before “toxic fandom” and 4chan culture were terms.
• Heidecker notes that some of the trolls became later became fans, explaining how the show’s nihilism, weirdness, and tone attracted a particular crowd.
• Maron and Heidecker discuss the 2016 political shift and the gamification/radicalization of internet troll culture.
• Notable Moment/Quote:
  “I think we did... Those people also became fans of ours. Or sort of the nihilistic, you know, troll type folks.”
  — Tim Heidecker [24:09]

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5. New Creative Directions: Music and Stretching Beyond Comedy (28:26–32:22)

• Marc and Tim talk taking music seriously as “comedy guys,” the vulnerability of earnest creation, shifting out of snark and irony into sincerity.
• Heidecker shares his love for songwriting and performing: “I think I got to an age that I felt like I could talk about stuff that isn’t ironic.” [29:17]
• Discuss audience expectations–how tough it is for comedians to be taken seriously in other disciplines.

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6. Mixing Comedy and Music—Style, Banter, and Audience Reaction (32:22–39:10)

• How Tim’s shows blend standup personas, music, PowerPoint bits, and comic banter.
• Both express vulnerability in performing music. Marc describes the “overwhelming” feeling of singing and playing.
• Memorable Moment:
  Tim jokes about his album themed around drinking urine, “Yellow River Boys,” done in the style of southern rock.
  — [33:17–34:05]
• Discussion of performing covers, comedy within music sets, and the shifting meaning of “swagger” in performance.

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7. On Cinema, Cult Audiences, and Creative Independence (39:10–43:55)

• Tim elaborates on “On Cinema” (with Greg Turkington): a 10-year-long “soap opera” disguised as a film review show, now with its own subscriber network (HEI Network).
• They praise the value of a cult audience in an era obsessed with subscriber/follower counts.
• Marc: “Tim and Eric had a huge impact... it created a tone that I was fascinated with.”

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8. Art, Politics, and the Frustrations of Preaching to the Choir (43:55–49:26)

• Both wrestle with the limitations and responsibilities of speaking politically within their community vs. reaching wider, more “impervious” audiences.
• Marc: “If it's just to make your audience laugh, who gives a shit? And I find that frustrating sometimes.” [43:11]
• Tim notes, “I’m not trying to alienate anybody... we're just doing our things.”

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9. The Modern ‘Comedy Bro’ Sphere, Toxicity, and Comedic Influencer Culture (49:26–56:29)

• They discuss the ascendance of “bro” podcast culture, referencing Joe Rogan, Tony Hinchcliffe, Kill Tony, etc.
• Maron criticizes cruelty-as-entertainment and insular, gatekeeping behavior in the current comic podcast explosion.
• Heidecker reflects: “The world I come from is not competitive... It is collaborative, and it is joyful and silly for the most part. And the bro-y locker room vibe isn’t there.” [55:38]
• Both express discomfort with the “swagger”—the artifice of confident authority that can mask mediocrity.

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10. Culture Jamming, Information Ecosystems, and the Battle for Minds (57:06–65:59)

• The difficulty of breaking through “siloed” communities online.
• Maron proposes: “Somehow you’ve got to create a self-detonating bomb” of information or satire that spreads beyond comfort zones. [59:25]
• Both lament the lack of shared language or central cultural reference point, and wonder aloud about the actual size and influence of certain podcast audiences.
• Marc discusses the futility and necessity of creative resistance, not just charity shows but effective, subversive interventions.

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11. Negative Attention, Vulnerability, and Resilience (66:14–68:12)

• They debate reframing negative attention as a sign of impact and staying true to their voices despite the emotional toll.
• Maron: “I don’t like negative attention. It hurts me and it scares me. But I don’t like being a coward either.” [66:36]
• Tim: “There’s some stuff that is just too funny to not talk about and too crazy to not talk about.”

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12. Current Projects, Friendship & Craft, Small Moments (68:12–End)

• Tim plugs new collaborative writing project (“Marion’s Wish”), weekly serialized stories drawn from a text thread with Greg Turkington and Mark Proach.
• Discussion of their recent run-in traveling to New Mexico, dinner with Aubrey Plaza and Margaret Qualley, and Marc’s memorable standup set.
• Tim appears in a new football horror movie called “Him,” produced by Jordan Peele's company.
• Both attest to their ongoing nerves when acting and the strange position of creative veterans still second-guessing themselves on set.
• The episode concludes with mutual praise and gratitude.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Measuring a Creative Life:
  “It’s all there. Some days I think I should check back in with it. I can go back 16 years and... just listen to the life I’ve measured through Shure SM7 microphones.”
  — Marc Maron [07:34]

• On Aging in Public:
  "I looked at a picture of me with you from when I was in here 10, 12 years ago. We both look good. Well, I look very noticeably puffier."
  — Tim Heidecker [14:50]

• On Internet Comments:
  “You get the snore emoji. Alright, what’s the problem?”
  — Tim Heidecker [20:25]

• On the Comedy Bro Podcast Era:
  “It’s like he’s couching it in this idea of wrestling... a guy who's not a good comic has hungry amateur comics out there to shit on him. That’s very cruel.”
  — Marc Maron [54:40]

• On Political Responsibility:
  “I feel an obligation to speak on their behalf ... I do my Office Hours podcast, which is a live call-in show, and I generally talk about what’s going on with me.”
  — Tim Heidecker [45:44]

• On Siloed Media and Preaching to the Choir:
  “Everything’s decentralized. There’s no common language. There’s no full community of people making choices as a community. Everyone’s insulated within their bubbles...”
  — Marc Maron [65:23]

• On Vulnerability and Facing Down Trolls:
  "I don’t like negative attention. It hurts me and it scares me. But I don’t like being a coward either. And I don’t like not feeling like I can speak freely. So you gotta make a choice with that."
  — Marc Maron [66:36]

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Structuring & Approach

• Conversational, personal, and meandering—true to the signature WTF style.
• Blunt honesty about creative fears, foibles, and the wear-and-tear of public life.
• No attempt to “solve” big questions—embraces ambiguity, encourages “creative resistance” and authentic voice.
• Plenty of meta-commentary: both men comment on their own awkwardness, the performance of being a public person, and the creative process itself.

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For more:

• Visit timheidecker.com for tour dates.
• Explore “Office Hours,” “On Cinema,” and the new serialized writing project MariansWish.com.

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Transcript

[Marc Maron]

Okay, folks, today's episode is sponsored by Squarespace. Which is the best way to showcase your stuff online. Your art, your podcast, your crafts, you. By helping you make a customizable website. Now, using Blueprint AI, build your whole website in just a few steps. Then choose whatever features you want to get the most out of your site, just like we do with wtfpod.com check out squarespace.com WTF for a free trial. And then use offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com WTF offer code WTF. All right. Okay. Yeah, let's do it. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Nicks? What's happening? I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. How are you doing? The first episode of WTF was posted 16 years ago today. 16 years ago today. 16 years. And I remember at the beginning of this show when we were doing it in the old garage when I'd moved it to Highland park, and it was still just a garage. There was just clutter in there and a table and my MacBook and these big clunky microphones. I have measured my life through Shure, SM7 and SM58 microphones. That is really the truth. You know, T.S. eliot may have done it with coffee spoons, but for me, it's been SM7s, SM58s on stage and in my garage. But there at the beginning, it was totally new. I remember at the beginning where I thought ads would diminish what we were doing. I don't really ever call myself punk rock, and I don't see myself as punk rock, but I do remember it was a big adjustment for me to actually start doing ads on the show. That it was never, I guess, my intention to make money. I just wanted to do this thing that not many people were doing, and it was all new, and I thought ads would clutter it up. And I made an exception for Just coffee. And I made an exception for Adam and Eve because they seemed like scrappy companies. But obviously, over time, it became clear that not unlike other broadcasts, that, you know, ads were going to generate revenue. We tried a lot of different ways to generate revenue. But I do remember, not only was it a big concession for me personally on some level to do ads, but also that I did not want to be seen as an interviewer. I wanted to make sure people knew I was a comic. And it was my. The first few Years of this show were fraught with me realizing that the show's kind of impact was about me having conversations with people. And it was just. I just was like, but I'm a comic. And that's really where the monologues came from. I knew they didn't have to be funny, but at the beginning, I was going to try to be funny every time. But then I realized it's a much broader kind of outlet or medium for me to explore who I am. I have measured my life through this microphone and through the microphones I use on stage in a very real way. It's all there. Some days I think I should check back in with it. I mean, when I think about those early episodes, when I think that we have done however many. We have done. 1600. Oh, my God, where are we at now? 1600. And what? What is it? Episode 1673, last week. So this is 1674. And to look at the fucking guest list is. I can't believe it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Because.

[Marc Maron]

My memories are just relative to those moments. And just like anybody else 16 years ago. And to think that I've gone through. You know, three cats have passed. One was taken away by an ex. One was taken away by coyotes. I had to put down a stray cat that was sick. Another feral cat died under my old house. Another one was hit by a car. Another feral was hit by a car out in front of the house. The deaf black cat who many of you remember from the old days, he was taken away by coyotes. You know, I've gone through several different relationships. I've gone through people passing. I've gone through guests passing. I've gone through my own turmoil, professionally and personally. And it's crazy. It's crazy. When I look at this, it's in alphabetical order on the site under wtf, people. I mean, it's fucking nuts. I gotta be honest with you. Some of these people I don't remember talking to. And that's sort of sad because Brendan's a guy, Brendan McDonald. He remembers a lot of them because he spends a lot more time with them. The only time I hear these episodes is when I'm doing them. And it's crazy. I mean, I'm just looking at just strange ones. I mean, I'm looking at this list. I can't even reel off names because there are just so many. I'm looking at Alan Alda. Oh, yeah. Alan Ruck, Alan Bursky, Albert Brooks, the Daniels, Danny Boyle. I can't. What? Jed Mayhew from the. From the Zigzags. Jeff Baena. Rest in peace. Jeff Bridges. Mark Rebo. The guitar player. Margot Price, who I still kind of follow on Instagram.

[Brendan McDonald]

Oh.

[Marc Maron]

Rosie Perez. Roy Wood Jr. Sally Kellerman. Rest in peace. Sally Struthers. Wow. Sam Elliott. Well, that didn't go well. Mary Mack. What's Mary Mack up to? Oh, my God. Matt McCarthy. I can't believe this. Jim Short. Rest in peace. Oh, boy. Jimmy Walker. Crazy. I just. Michael Chiklis. Michael Douglas. I cannot believe this list of people. People I cannot. Drew Carey, Duff, Dylan Moran, Ed Krasnick. I just saw him in the Sopranos. What's. I wonder what he's up to. I can't. It's. It's all. It hasn't flown by, but it is kind of crazy, you know, my commitment to this thing and with such an urgency, with such a focus, that I think a lot of what I have is it must be some sort of, you know, PTSD, because that's 673, 74 episodes, every one of which I experienced some sort of mild to deep panic going into them, and I was fully engaged in all of them. I've never been able to autopilot, and I have to assume that that's not trauma, but it is a lot of energy and a lot of output. And I remember when we moved out of the old house and moved into this place, just the panic of getting the sound right in this place. And now people come over and they're like, is this where Obama was? I have to say no, but that is the chair he sat in. And sometimes I'll take people upstairs into the office in my house, which is really where all of the original artifacts and books and everything that cluttered the old garage reside now. And I have to be honest with you, that room, which I don't spend enough time in, is a magic room in my house. There's a piece there that. I don't know if it's because of the house or because of the history or if I'm gonna get mystical because of whatever may have happened in that room, but I've grown to believe that it's probably because everything that really is the history of that show, the original bookshelves, the books, the tchotchkes, the bits and pieces of ephemera that were cluttering in a fairly organized way, the old garage are all up there. And I guess when I want to feel the weight and depth and kind of beauty of the history of the show, it's up there now. And sometimes I sit in there and it's almost meditative. It's almost like a kind of peace comes over me of something, you know, that was important to me and very deep to me, but also very deep to everybody else who listened to it. It's kind of crazy because time is garbage now and attention is garbage now. And our sense of time has been completely fractured by the gift of technology that we hold in our hands or sit in front of all day. I really think it's kind of fucked with it. But I, I, but I do find that in these moments of, of quiet, that time is the past is, is hard to reckon with because all you have, you know, you know, are bits and pieces of, of, of memories and moments that get rearranged and reinterpreted and embellished in your mind. But again, I do know that if need be, if I need to check in with me, I can go back 16 years and start there and just listen to the life I've measured through Shure SM7 microphones here in front of these sound waves and across from 160070 some odd people over the period of 16 years. It's all there. It's all in sequence. Not my mind, but in the world. Yeah, Heavy business today. Tim Heidecker is on the show. He's been on a couple times, once by himself, once with Eric Wareheim. And he's softened. I found him very kind of intimidating in some weird way because I never knew whether or not he was fucking with me. But he's sort of settled into himself. He's a nicer guy. He has a weekly streaming show called Office Hours as well as the On Cinema show he does with Greg Turkington. My next show at Largo with the band is on Wednesday, September 10th. Go to wtfpod.com tour for tickets. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. And help can come from a lot of places. Think about all the people you turn to for advice or to work through some problems. Your hairdresser, someone working on your house, a cab driver, people across from me on the microphone. I'm sure a lot of you listen to this show for that reason. You get some new perspectives from the guests or from the problems I'm talking about. These are all normal ways to make it through the day. But when you need real help about relationships or anxiety or other clinical issues, guidance from a licensed therapist is the way to go. And you can find the right one with better help. A lot of times I think I can just talk my way through my issues on these mics and sure, sometimes I can But I also know when I'm really stuck, and that's when I seek out a therapist. And if you're feeling that way, BetterHelp is right at your fingertips. They have therapists who work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US as the largest online therapy provider in the world. BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of Expertise. Find the one with BetterHelp. WTF? Listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com WTF. That's BetterHelp.com WTF. So, Tim Heidecker is here. You can go to OfficialOfficeHours.com to check out all the ways to watch and listen to Office Hours live. And go to Tim Heidecker.com for links to everything else he does. He's an interesting guy and I. And as I said before, he's a nicer guy. This is me talking to Tim Heidecker. You're gonna knock down all the way.

[Tim Heidecker]

No, I. This is. I'm very. A little claustrophobic.

[Marc Maron]

Are you honest with you? Well, it's all movable. You're really not that locked in.

[Tim Heidecker]

I'm okay.

[Marc Maron]

If you. If you needed to scream running out of here, you could knock all this now.

[Tim Heidecker]

You know what I'm nervous about is my cough, my ice in my coffee.

[Marc Maron]

I really. That's going to be a Brendan problem. And you know, he'll probably be annoyed it by it.

[Tim Heidecker]

If this is going to be the last one, I'd hate it to be so.

[Marc Maron]

Well, between us, not the very last one, but maybe between us.

[Producer/Assistant]

Really?

[Marc Maron]

I mean, in terms of you being on here.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, yes, it'll be my last appearance.

[Marc Maron]

Is your third time probably.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah. Once with Eric.

[Marc Maron]

Ron, do you remember Eric?

[Brendan McDonald]

Here we go.

[Tim Heidecker]

I forgot to bring my shield.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You remember Eric? Yeah. Once with him and then once for that odd movie that you were in. You remember that one?

[Tim Heidecker]

Do I remember the comedy?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

What was it called again?

[Tim Heidecker]

The Comedy.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah, yeah. It was a disturbing movie.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, it was good.

[Tim Heidecker]

A lot of good ones are.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah. I haven't watched it in a while, but no, I'm this.

[Marc Maron]

Are you able to watch yourself?

[Tim Heidecker]

I don't get as much. I don't really enjoy it when I'm not in control of it.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, in terms of watching yourself.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Like if it's our stuff, it's fun.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But because you guys know what you're going for.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

With other people, they just use you how they will.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Cut out the good moments.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And I'm. I mean, you maybe feel this way. You get older and you start seeing yourself as an older person. And you see that. You see it.

[Marc Maron]

But you're looking good. I mean, do you have that?

[Tim Heidecker]

That's what I was fishing for.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, I mean.

[Marc Maron]

What. You're not that old. I mean. I'm fucking old.

[Tim Heidecker]

27.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, so you are getting up.

[Tim Heidecker]

I'm going to be 50 in February.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

But you kind of weird to me.

[Marc Maron]

You lost weight, you leaned up, you look healthy.

[Tim Heidecker]

Than. Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, I'm going to be 62 and there. And even if I. If I'm lean and I'm healthy, there's some things you can't stop.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

You're not really there yet.

[Tim Heidecker]

Like I can see you without teeth.

[Marc Maron]

That's a definite possibility. My gums are not great.

[Tim Heidecker]

I did see a look at a picture of me with you from when I was in here 10, 12 years ago.

[Marc Maron]

It's hard, right?

[Tim Heidecker]

We both look good. Well, I look very noticeably puffier.

[Marc Maron]

Pudgy.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Were you drunky?

[Tim Heidecker]

No, I wasn't drunk either.

[Marc Maron]

Just eating.

[Tim Heidecker]

Just.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And it's all. It's. I lost weight. It's coming back. I don't know what to do.

[Marc Maron]

The weight's coming back.

[Brendan McDonald]

Oh, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, there's a lot of options for celebrities like you.

[Tim Heidecker]

You know what, Mark? When I got. I lost weight.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And that's all anyone said.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And it's just. I'm here to say I wasn't using any of that stuff. I would have.

[Marc Maron]

You weren't that heavy to where you would need to. I feel like people who do that are heavy. Heavy.

[Tim Heidecker]

I guess maybe. I don't know. I never got the credit for doing the hard work.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, well, we'll give it to you now.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

Let's celebrate Tim's work on doing his weight loss organically.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Why is it coming back? You drifting, you're not working out, you eating shitty.

[Tim Heidecker]

I don't know. I don't know. I gotta do. I gotta change something. I think I got. You plateau, don't you? Is that the thing? You plateau and then I did give up on the thing a little bit, I guess.

[Marc Maron]

You plateau. I don't know.

[Tim Heidecker]

I stopped doing the sh. I mean, not the. What do you say?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

If I just outed the shot. I was going to joke that I already.

[Marc Maron]

No, but it's all lie. You've been shooting up since. Since it first came out.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I've been using needles, but Not.

[Marc Maron]

Not nose, just aspirin. Straight heroin. I. So a couple things I'm curious about, I guess. What are you gonna do on this?

[Tim Heidecker]

I guess if I have to be. By the way, let me say. Yesterday you wrote me to ask to come in, and it was. I don't believe in spiritual stuff, but that morning I was watching, my friend made a documentary about Gallagher.

[Brendan McDonald]

Oh, God.

[Tim Heidecker]

And so I was watching this documentary. Yeah, you are.

[Marc Maron]

I hope you use the footage.

[Tim Heidecker]

He used the audio.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's all there is.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I hope.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Tim Heidecker]

I'm sure they're going through the proper channels.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know. I haven't heard from him, but. Sorry, we just wet people.

[Tim Heidecker]

It's a great document. I mean.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

But anyways, it was.

[Marc Maron]

Does it show him in a good light?

[Tim Heidecker]

It's a full picture.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

It's the whole story. And so some of it is.

[Marc Maron]

Yes, I tried to do that, but it just went sideways.

[Tim Heidecker]

I know. Right away.

[Marc Maron]

Went sideways immediately. Who doesn't want to play state fairs?

[Tim Heidecker]

It was great. And I let the best line maybe in podcast history is Gallagher.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Not. What was it?

[Tim Heidecker]

Come on.

[Marc Maron]

Come on, Gallagher.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Come on, Gallagher. Now. Now I know what you're trying to do.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

It's a legendary moment. Sorry to interrupt.

[Marc Maron]

No, it's okay.

[Tim Heidecker]

Somewhat curious, are you.

[Marc Maron]

You're gonna start building a new set. I saw an ad workshopping something.

[Tim Heidecker]

Oh, my God. I really stepped in it. I just said, well, this is dumb, but I. Yeah, I was gonna try to do a couple some new things at the Elysian, and they said, what do you want to call it? And I just said, I don't know, like, I'm working it out.

[Marc Maron]

And working.

[Tim Heidecker]

That's kind of a expression.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah, but that's Birbiglia's podcast. It's called Working it Out.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I called my last tour all in, and that's Chris Hayes show.

[Tim Heidecker]

Oh, that's right. So you can't copyright these things.

[Marc Maron]

No, no.

[Tim Heidecker]

I'm having them change it to Working on It.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Which I'm sure is somebody else's podcast.

[Marc Maron]

Working on it, I'm sure.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But what are you gonna do?

[Tim Heidecker]

I don't know. I've been going out and doing things. I go out and I have some jokes, I have some PowerPoint presentation. He kind of did you PowerPoint some keynote? Yeah, I guess I use KeyNote, but it's PowerPoint.

[Marc Maron]

But do you actually do Keyn?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You do? Yeah, like you're asked to. Would you come speak?

[Tim Heidecker]

Oh, no, not like that. No, I just use the tool as, like, to show to, like, kind of walk through something in a funny way. In a funny way.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

But what I've been doing. One of the things I do is I collect YouTube comments.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And I find I go down deep into the details of.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

You know.

[Marc Maron]

On your show.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, no, not just. Not like, you know, if you find like, a Simon and Garfunkel video.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Tim Heidecker]

And just the conversations that happen in the bowels of those comments are fascinating.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Why? Because they come. They become personal.

[Tim Heidecker]

You get argumentative.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And about the nature of I am a rock.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah, exactly.

[Marc Maron]

What does it really mean?

[Tim Heidecker]

What was the one that I loved, which was. It was an interview with Paul Simon. Do you talk to Paul Simon?

[Marc Maron]

No, I never did.

[Tim Heidecker]

He was talking to Howard Stern, and. And they had clipped out one of the videos, and it was like, why they broke up.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And it's a great story if you don't know it. It's just like, a very, you know, hard time for him. And there's a lot of dimensions to it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And someone underneath said, lol, because no one cared anymore. Well, that's not like. That's just.

[Marc Maron]

But those are just. I always wonder, like, I still can't really tell the difference between what a bot is and what a bot means.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

You know, they. Does a bot just churn out a variety of AI generated you cucks.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Tim Heidecker]

Or. Yeah. I don't know what the. How it works, what the game is, like, what the benefits are, but just.

[Marc Maron]

General, faceless, you know, kind of trolling. I always try to picture, like, what kind of fuck would just sit there and decide to, like, I'm going to do this.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I'm going to say this.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, I want to gather. I want to, like, get them together in a convention and, like, just check in with them.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Tim Heidecker]

Are you guys doing all right?

[Marc Maron]

Let them do it out loud.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, say something and then just pick on somebody.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You random guy number seven.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Or like, if I announced a show, somebody would put, like, the snore emoji. All right. What.

[Marc Maron]

What's the problem? But it's such a kind of expression of what? Like, I still don't know. I feel like I understand people to some degree and that, you know, I act in pretty good faith and I do. Some part of me still believes that people are inherently decent, but that. I don't know that that's true anymore. But I really don't know how somebody surrenders their identity completely for, you know, A hateful position.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And it happens to people in, you know, that, you know, kind of.

[Tim Heidecker]

Sure.

[Marc Maron]

And it's just like these people are just, you know, out there just, you know, spewing garbage that's hurtful constantly.

[Tim Heidecker]

And I also love the. The ignorance. I don't get it. I don't understand this.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I don't know who you are.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. No one cares.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I like that one. No one. I'm speaking for everybody.

[Tim Heidecker]

For everybody.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

No one cares.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But why does it bother us?

[Tim Heidecker]

Does it bother you? I don't. Well, I sound bitter if I say it bothers me.

[Marc Maron]

Well, you just sound sensitive.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, I am sensitive. And I think it's interesting. Like you say, it's interesting to look at the human condition.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it's just shitty that we've had to adapt. We've had to build this callus. Because if you're gonna engage with that shit, and whether you're doing it compulsively or not, if you're just gonna browse through the comments, someone's gonna say something hurtful. It does hurt for a second. And then you just have to be like, well, that's just part of life.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

I'm not gonna respond, but it's a.

[Tim Heidecker]

New part of life. I feel like we're not trained or conditioned for it because you and I, or everybody I know in the arts, a lot of people are very disciplined about not caring or not even looking at that stuff. But we. This is kind of a version of what we grew up wanting to do is to entertain or to amuse and to perform for people. And now there's a way, a mechanism to see what people think of you.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And we wanna see. It's fun to see that.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But you gotta sort it out.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And then once you become labeled as something. An enemy of certain people.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Then it's a whole other game.

[Tim Heidecker]

Of course. And I am. I've become an enemy for a long. I've been an enemy for a lot of people for a long time.

[Marc Maron]

But when did it shift, though? Like, was there? Because it feels like Tim and Eric was a specific thing for a specific audience. And whatever pushback you got from, for whatever reason had to be pretty ridiculous.

[Tim Heidecker]

Sure.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I mean, it was ignored or it was. You know, back in those days, the adult swim audience definitely had what you would then recognize as sort of a 4chany kind of.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, it did.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But before it became.

[Tim Heidecker]

Before we had a word for it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, it was toxic, but it was.

[Marc Maron]

Just Personal based, not politically based.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, before Pepe the Frog.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah, a little. Yes, before Pepe. I remember, like, seeing the initial reactions to our first show, and it was full of just these F words. These guys there must I hope they die of aids.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah, yeah. Like right away.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

So that was the language used around us from the beginning.

[Marc Maron]

So that was gamer nerd anger.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I imagine, you know, a lot of your fans lived in that world.

[Tim Heidecker]

I guess so.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And we also made. I think the other thing was. I think we did. Eventually we. Those people also became fans of ours.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Or sort of the nihilistic.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Tim Heidecker]

You know, troll type folks.

[Marc Maron]

But nihilism. They probably liked you.

[Tim Heidecker]

That's what I mean. Yeah, they did. And I felt that way. There's times where I feel that way too, you know. But when I became. I guess when I became kind of more politically outspoken, I think those people saw me as like a betrayal of.

[Marc Maron]

But also, that was their new game, you know, they were radicalized.

[Tim Heidecker]

I heard you say that. The gamification of this stuff.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Is very real.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Right. They were kind of radicalized by that guy with the Greek sounding name, Maya.

[Tim Heidecker]

Mayo.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's it.

[Tim Heidecker]

Mayo. Milo.

[Marc Maron]

Milo, yeah. By him and Bannon. And then they just began to approach political speak as a troll game.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yes. And I saw it coming a little bit. And then that summer of 2000 was.

[Marc Maron]

That post Tim and Eric.

[Brendan McDonald]

It was.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, 2016 would have been a little post Tim and Eric, but yeah, I think. I mean, Eric and I have always kind of done stuff, but we were past our prime a little bit in 2016.

[Marc Maron]

How's he doing?

[Tim Heidecker]

He's good.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

He's like food guy. Well, now he's like a plant guy.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, he's seen this.

[Brendan McDonald]

No.

[Tim Heidecker]

And food and everything. But at first I didn't understand. And you're doing a bit.

[Marc Maron]

Come on, you're doing it.

[Tim Heidecker]

What is this now? And. But he's an artist. He really is. And it's like when you see his. What he's actually doing with it.

[Marc Maron]

With plants.

[Tim Heidecker]

With plants.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, interesting.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I mean, they're just like, you know, what would you call it? Landscape design. Sure thing.

[Marc Maron]

Really? So he's out there doing that for.

[Tim Heidecker]

People in a way you could not believe, really. What I can understand. But we're still.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Like. Like he gets hired to. I think he's building a business to.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, to do landscaping. To do bio plant design. Yeah, whatever it's called that.

[Tim Heidecker]

As far As I can tell, Nick.

[Marc Maron]

Kroll's wife works with plants.

[Tim Heidecker]

There you go.

[Marc Maron]

But that's. That's specifically for art, it seems.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah, no, you know, it seems again, I thought like, okay, what is this? And then I could see. I went over to see what he's doing and I'm like, again, he's just. He's got an artist's eye and he's, I think, antsy. So he moves from one thing to another a little bit. And this is a thing that he's doing and it's. I'm impressed by it.

[Marc Maron]

It's innocuous and organic. You know, no one's going to be like, you fucking hack.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah, exactly.

[Marc Maron]

Nice work with the bushes.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And he always, like, knows what he's talking about too. So he's talking, telling me about these Australian elms that he got, you know, and it's just like, wow, you're really passionate about it. And I have to respect that. But when can we meet for lunch to talk about a movie?

[Marc Maron]

You know, a movie, you know, where people are throwing up and there's a.

[Brendan McDonald]

Lot of fluids and stuff.

[Tim Heidecker]

So we still have the flame to do that.

[Marc Maron]

What would you do if you did a new Tim and Eric movie?

[Tim Heidecker]

Oh, well, we have a couple of ideas.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

But it probably something in the Horror.

[Marc Maron]

Horror. Horror seems like horror is a new place for real artists to work.

[Tim Heidecker]

They get. They get funded, you know. Yeah, you kind of like go in the back door, right? I think like Lynch. David lynch kind of played in that too.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Because you're like, well, this is actually. It's like a horror mystery. But I'm also going to make it.

[Marc Maron]

I'm just going to play around, do whatever you want. If you hit certain beats that they think they can sell to that audience, and that happens all the time. All these great young directors are doing horror because they have total freedom.

[Tim Heidecker]

And we did it. We did a show 10 years ago now called Bedtime Stories. It was like horror movie. Horror movies in short form. So I think that would be what we would do. But that's exciting.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Now, okay, so let's talk about this, you know, because I have been embarking on a bit of music.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And I do okay with it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

You got guitars and amps?

[Marc Maron]

Well, no, but it took me a lot to play out and to.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, I finally found a group of musicians that have time to rehearse.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So I'm getting a little more confidence with that.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But I would never think about touring or, you're doing it very earnestly. It's a hard shift to make for. For a funny guy.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah, it is. It's an embarrassing.

[Marc Maron]

Has it been embarrassing?

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, sometimes it is, but it. I've been doing it for a while and I. I don't know. I like writing songs. I like writing music.

[Marc Maron]

How do you do it?

[Tim Heidecker]

I sit at the piano or the stand at the guitar.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And you just do melodies.

[Tim Heidecker]

I do it all. I don't know what. Sometimes it'll start with a lyric or a word or a phrase or a subject matter.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And then bang it out. I think I'm pretty good at that part of it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Was it hard to be earnest about songs like get up there and be like Tim Heidecker and like here's a pretty song I wrote.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah, a little bit. I think it started because I have, you know, I got a. I got married and got. Have a kid. I have two kids now.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And I think I got to an age that I felt like I could talk about stuff that isn't ironic.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

For to see how that goes.

[Marc Maron]

You are a bonafide member of the snark generation.

[Tim Heidecker]

I know, I know. But we've talked about this. I think it's interesting to see what you are outside of that.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Outside of all of it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's why I've got the Krishna Merte book on my porch.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I'm trying to.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And still be like. I don't.

[Marc Maron]

I think there's.

[Tim Heidecker]

I can be funny in my music and I am funny in.

[Marc Maron]

But not novelty music.

[Tim Heidecker]

But not novelty. Not coming from a place of a character.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Tim Heidecker]

Which is a different thing.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

But I mean Randy has done it. Randy Newman, of course. He's a one namer. Right?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, sure. I'll do it. We're playing a cover of his Guilty.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah. I just love it. I love music and I found this like. You talking about having a band. Like having. I have a band that I just get along with so good. And they.

[Marc Maron]

How often you rehearse?

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, we just. They're so good. You just get together the day before a gig.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

See, I can't do that because I want to learn how to play in a real way with other people.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And learn how to like kind of be in, you know, time with everything. You know, because like I. I tend to choke both as a guitar player and as a singer a bit.

[Brendan McDonald]

And.

[Marc Maron]

And then like, I don't know if I'm really.

[Tim Heidecker]

I think the thing that I hear you I think the thing that changed for me was we did the tour.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Tim Heidecker]

And the tour has now locked it in. That the, the dynamics of that and the muscle memory of playing to the point where. Yeah, we, you can almost. You could turn it off and on.

[Marc Maron]

How many dates did you do?

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, we did like 30 days the first summer.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And then 30 dates the second summer.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And I did it with my stand up character, you know.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I did the first half of the show as my leather jacket.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Tim Heidecker]

Guy.

[Brendan McDonald]

That guy.

[Tim Heidecker]

Making fun of all these stand up comedians out there.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I do that. Not you, but other people.

[Marc Maron]

Seems like I do that for real now.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And then the second half of the show is the band.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And people liked it. Yes, I think so. I think they did. I could, you know, but certain people don't, you know, and certain people don't think that's, that's not what they want from me.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

How do you deal with that?

[Tim Heidecker]

You know, you want everything.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

So this is all of me.

[Marc Maron]

This is still me.

[Tim Heidecker]

Are you interviewing me or. I mean, do you feel like you're talking to yourself? Is that what you're saying?

[Marc Maron]

Well, no, because I understand that framing, but I mean, I had to understand that framing when, you know, I started doing a podcast.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Like I had to reassert myself. Like, I do comedy, I'm a comedian.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But the podcast enabled me to speak in a way freely that wasn't hinge of funny necessarily. So that was freeing. And I don't like the way I do the music is. I'll do a show where we'll play a couple songs, I'll bring a comic on, do a couple more songs, bring a comic on, do a couple more, and then I'll do a set and course out. So we're doing, you know, seven songs, covers with the comedy performances in between.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

So it's not, you know, I still don't have confidence to say like, you know, I'm just gonna do a music show.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, I've worked out a place where I can be funny within the music set. I can talk and do bits and.

[Marc Maron]

Do you enter song in between song banter?

[Tim Heidecker]

I do the best. It doesn't get better than my inter. Song banter.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I have a little piano set where I play some funnier songs and make a. I have a couple of musical style routines, whatever. I mean, it sounds so dumb to talk about it, Mark, but no, I'm curious. Like routines. Yeah, bits, but bits.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Little sketch, little skits.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And Every time we do it, we feel great leaving the stage. We get, you know, we have fun. I. I do these. I've seen these songs of mine that are all about drinking piss.

[Brendan McDonald]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

This thing, this record called the Yellow.

[Marc Maron]

That'S a relatable thing.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I mean, nowadays, right. Supposed to be good for you or something.

[Marc Maron]

It's a whole album about it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

It's called the Yellow. You'd love it because it's. It's. It's done in the style of like, you know, Lynyrd Skynyrd or something.

[Brendan McDonald]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And it's very well done.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Like, the music is very purely done very well.

[Marc Maron]

I'm gonna do an ACDC song. Of course I am.

[Tim Heidecker]

Now, you can say, you can get up there and you can do the vocals.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But I do them like me.

[Tim Heidecker]

Speaking of acdc, Greg Turkington, who's, you know, now my most prolific collaborator these days because I've just done so much of On Cinema with him, also known as Neil Hamburger, does an ACDC thing when he sings, when he does karaoke. That's one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

[Brendan McDonald]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Seen because he gets real close to Mike and he sings like Brian Johnson, but very quietly.

[Marc Maron]

I think that's. I think that's how they do it. Even Bon Scott, they're not belting.

[Tim Heidecker]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

You go, you got to get up in here.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And it's easier to do it when you like Chris Cornell. Chris Cornell, like, that mic was barely. Was cranked because he was singing so softly.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And you feel like he's belting it.

[Tim Heidecker]

That's the key.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. How do you feel about your voice generally?

[Tim Heidecker]

I'm self conscious about it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, me too.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

The vulnerability of singing and playing is just. It's overwhelming.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I did a Taylor Swift cover the other night.

[Tim Heidecker]

I saw.

[Brendan McDonald]

I saw that.

[Marc Maron]

It was great.

[Tim Heidecker]

The special was great, by the way.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, thank you very much. Well, yeah, but that was funny because we did that. We didn't time it outright. We did the Taylor Swift cover at Largo.

[Tim Heidecker]

And now you've got the engagement.

[Marc Maron]

I know. I was kind of excited about it.

[Tim Heidecker]

You know, John C. Reilly, Fred Armisen and I did a show a few years ago called Moon Base 8. And our. Our guest star in the first episode, Travis Kelsey.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Before anyone. Before he was a household name.

[Marc Maron]

Why? I just saw the news this morning. I was surprised. I was like, oh, that's good. They seem good together. Yeah, that's a nice.

[Tim Heidecker]

The country needs it. We're healing.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But after I did the Taylor Swift song and then I had to do my comedy set, it made me cry.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then I'm like, all right. But I made the transition. You know why? Because I'm a pro.

[Tim Heidecker]

You're a master.

[Marc Maron]

I'm a fucking pro.

[Tim Heidecker]

One of the masters.

[Marc Maron]

I just walked into the bits and fucking did it.

[Tim Heidecker]

I would love to. I think, if I. I did cry once on stage during the music.

[Marc Maron]

So vulnerable to me.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I just feel like. And I. And I think that. I think that doing the music and. And sort of moving through that fear, it's going to help my stand up in a way, because I'm just tired of the patter. I'm tired of. I wrote My Notebook. I just wrote Limit Swagger.

[Tim Heidecker]

In your standup.

[Marc Maron]

Just in general.

[Tim Heidecker]

In general.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

There's something about, like, wondering what. I'm so clear about, why I'm doing it for myself.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

But I don't know. I don't know how close I am to understanding what I'm doing, if I'm doing it for the right reasons for my audience.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

That's the trick.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But. But how much of that lives in our head anyways? And, you know, like. And in the comments, like, I. I don't know. Like, I. I worry about that, too. Like, oh, let's indulge Mark.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

With his little music dream.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And certainly growing up, seeing comics that do music, I'm like, oh, fuck, what's he doing? You know, it didn't. Didn't go well for Kenison.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

You know, he was pretty serious about it. Any comic that is music, seriously.

[Tim Heidecker]

I know.

[Marc Maron]

It's very hard to watch, to frame it correctly, even if they're amazing.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

You know?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And it's a shame because I think we all come from, like, growing up, wanting to just do stuff.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And not thinking about the genre and how it's going to be classified at Blockbuster Video or whatever.

[Marc Maron]

I guess. But, like, when Eddie Murphy did My Girl Wants to Party all the Time.

[Tim Heidecker]

Terrible, I think.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I agree with that.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But it's.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It all comes down to. To if you're not doing it to sell records.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And you're doing it earnestly to, you know, express yourself.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Then it's legit.

[Tim Heidecker]

I think that's what. Where I'm coming from is. I have things I want to say that don't belong in my comedy.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I haven't figured out how to write a song yet.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I Think I've probably written some, but I have to like, find them. Does that make sense?

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah, I mean, either John Lennon says, like, keep it short and make it rhyme. Did he? Yeah, I think so.

[Marc Maron]

But he also has all those chords you have. The Beatles. Yeah, I don't. I'm still strictly a one four five.

[Tim Heidecker]

No, those are good too.

[Marc Maron]

With an occasional. Those are the catchy ones with an occasional two.

[Tim Heidecker]

Too minor.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, too minor, right, exactly. To make it pop.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah, just to crush the ear.

[Marc Maron]

You wearing all the Beatles chords?

[Tim Heidecker]

I don't know. No, I'm also a 1, 4, 5, 2 guy. Yeah, six.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, sure, throw six in there. What the fuck? Why not? So you made a record about P though.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yes, that's the Yellow River Boys and that goes back 10 years. But, you know, if you don't want the heavy stuff.

[Marc Maron]

All right, so now switching gears. All right, so the. Listen to me acting like a real interviewer. The film podcast, what do you do on there?

[Tim Heidecker]

The film podcast is Greg Turkington and I. And it is a 10 year long soap opera that is the patina of. Or the sort of stage in which we perform on is this movie review show. But it's really a psychodrama about you two. About our two characters.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Tim Heidecker]

Mark? It's the greatest thing ever.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Tim Heidecker]

I mean, I'm not kidding you based.

[Marc Maron]

On like Siskel and Ebert or something.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, that's the format that we play in, but it is these two lunatics, they hate each other.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And they're miserable and they're failures and that's the. That's what's going on. That's the subtext of the show.

[Marc Maron]

And you do that over at the house?

[Tim Heidecker]

No, we do. We like.

[Marc Maron]

We go down to Tom's place.

[Tim Heidecker]

We go to.

[Marc Maron]

We go to a studio over at Forever Dog.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, no, no, this is not. This is not a. This is a per TV show. It's a production. It is a. It's a, you know, it's a Loba.

[Marc Maron]

It's on television.

[Tim Heidecker]

It's on our own network, the High Network, which people pay for and supports.

[Marc Maron]

How many shows you got on there?

[Tim Heidecker]

We have 200 episodes or so of that, 15 seasons of that. We have.

[Marc Maron]

What's some other shows on there? High Network.

[Tim Heidecker]

Tycker.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, that's it.

[Tim Heidecker]

H e I. Well, that's it. That's all. I mean, that's.

[Marc Maron]

You're not producing other shows?

[Brendan McDonald]

No. You're not a.

[Marc Maron]

What do you call it?

[Tim Heidecker]

An impresario?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Impresario, Entrepreneur, mogul.

[Tim Heidecker]

We'd like to. I mean, the show's been running for a long time. And how's the following. Brilliant. It's, you know, we have 15,000 or 20,000 people that subscribe to that pay to watch the show, which funds the season. And we do an Oscar special every year. We made a movie called Mr. America. Yeah, that was in the movie theaters.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

You know, it's a cult thing. But I swear, Mark, if you got into it.

[Marc Maron]

No, I want to check it out.

[Tim Heidecker]

You would love it.

[Marc Maron]

I'll check it out.

[Tim Heidecker]

Because it goes to the darkest places.

[Marc Maron]

How much does it cost to.

[Tim Heidecker]

I'll get you. Give me a break. I get you in. I get you in the back door.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I can just jump onto high tv.

[Tim Heidecker]

Performers don't pay for things.

[Marc Maron]

It's wild, though, because, like, you. Like, out of all the people really, that I talk to, the things that you've done have always been a cult audience.

[Tim Heidecker]

Sure, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

In terms of, like. But, you know, Tim and Eric had a huge impact on a lot of people, a lot of creative people. It created a tone that I was pretty fascinated with. You know, I think that without you, there's, you know, Eric. Andre might not know what he's doing.

[Brendan McDonald]

Without.

[Marc Maron]

Without you and Tom Green.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But. But the cult thing.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Jackass.

[Tim Heidecker]

I mean, he. No, I'm saying with Jackass.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, sure. Jackass. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Boy, that first Jackass movie. Holy terrific.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like, I gotta watch it every few years. Can't watch it more than that or it's not gonna be funny.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, you gotta savor it.

[Tim Heidecker]

But what are you saying?

[Marc Maron]

Well, I'm saying that, like, you know, when there's this other idea that's happened, and I think this will get us into, you know, some of the other stuff I want to talk about was that this idea that your success is hinged on likes and your relevance.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You're following. You know that it's all about, you know, the clicks and the. And the Benjamins.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, I. I've never been a greedy or, you know, gunning for the money. Right. Maybe would have done it differently, but I think at some point I realized there's no other way I can do it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So for me to, you know, assess that as being the way show business works, even on the level of independent show business, that it really becomes, like, how many followers, like, how many people are subscribed, all this other shit that, you know, quality or integrity of the thing or even creativity is, you know, second or third or fourth in the concern.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But I guess where I was going at the beginning of this is that when you're always sort of. You have to realize, like, you know, I have this audience, you know, they're my audience.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, I don't want to push them away most days, but I do push the limit. But, you know, why can't I be happy with that? And I think some part of the answer, given that what you and I do sometimes is that it feels insulated, you know, like, if you want to do work that has a politically, you know, satirical target and intention, if it's just to make your audience laugh, who gives a shit?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I find that frustrating sometimes.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, yeah, in the case of On Cinema, I think it is. It's a very specific kind of dry comedy that takes quite a bit of maybe investment. But I say that, and I sound like. It sounds like bullshit, because everything requires a bit of investment. If you're gonna start watching Mad Men, you're going to not. Maybe you're going to, you know, try to not understand. You don't know who everything is, what everything is about. So for whatever reason, our stuff appeals to not as many people, but they stay with us for years. Yeah. And. But my. I'm not. I'm not trying to alienate anybody, and we're just doing our things.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But I'm talking about political stuff.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yes. Well, do. I mean, I certainly am political.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

But not on. On Cinema. So if you're talking outside of On Cinema.

[Marc Maron]

Talking in the general.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That you're still playing to an audience.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And, like. Because I've just had this experience over the last few weeks.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Of, you know, shooting my mouth off in a format.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yes.

[Tim Heidecker]

And I mean, you're. We're. We're all loving it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Oh, good. But.

[Marc Maron]

But, like. Because we don't do video, and that's very intentional.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

You know, because we do a certain thing and it was a decision. It wasn't like, you know, why don't you make the jump? It was not what we do to create the intimacy we want to create and create the experience we want to have and what I want to have with who I'm talking to. But all of a sudden I go out and Brendan's not editing me, and.

[Tim Heidecker]

I'm just annoyed from you sitting down already.

[Marc Maron]

Well, there's that, but there's also all the stuff I'm talking about, I've talked about before, but because it's on video and because it's shareable and because there were moments where, you know, I, you know, I took people on.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

All of a sudden it's got all this fucking traction. And, you know, I'm all of a sudden in this conversation or a one sided conversation with people who hate what I say or who. People who like what I say, that, you know, you start to realize that, okay, well, that's all well and good and I feel like, like you said, I think it makes a difference. I mean, I'm primarily speaking for our community.

[Tim Heidecker]

Absolutely.

[Marc Maron]

You know, comics and creatives who are in the face of authoritarianism and the sort of momentum of that to make ourselves scared to talk or to, you know, or to feel like, you know, what we're doing is being pushed aside, you know, and then that for me, you know.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, I'm also, when you say community, forget. I mean, yes, absolutely. Some comedians and artists and creatives and people that we work with and people that are in my family and people that are friends of mine, I feel an obligation to speak on their behalf. If people are gonna ask me about things or if I'm gonna do my office hours podcast, which is a live call and show that I generally talk about what's going on with me. And so I heard today, like, you know this fucking guy, Patrick Bet David, you know these guys? Oh, they're like, they're in the rogue sphere, but they're not comedians. They're just these biz bros, you know, Real estate.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, sure.

[Tim Heidecker]

Bad guys. Yeah, 100%. And they were playing this clip of. You see this clip of Snoop Dogg going to the movie theater.

[Marc Maron]

The problem that he didn't know how to explain it to his grandkids.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Like, and they go on about it for 10 minutes. Well, this is what's wrong with Disney. And it's finally people are waking up. And if it's so woke for Snoop Dogg, then maybe people, I'm like, what the fuck are you guys talking about? A cartoon with two moms that have an adopted kid. Yeah, that should be the. And they're talking about grooming and how this is a, you know, all the talking. And I get so mad about it because fuck you, if you don't have a friend or a cousin or a family member, somebody who is like, done a very, in my opinion, normal thing of falling in love with somebody and adopting a kid. Yeah, like, that should be the most fucking white bread, wonder bred bullshit.

[Brendan McDonald]

Now.

[Marc Maron]

Well, they, well, they.

[Tim Heidecker]

But they're treating it like it's the, you know, guys fucking each other in the Middle of a Pixar movie.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, they're, they, they're, they don't come from love. The, the, the idea of, of love being enough between two people doesn't factor into their judgment.

[Tim Heidecker]

But I'm glad you're talking and I feel like I need to talk because those guys are sucking up so much of the oxygen.

[Marc Maron]

That's what I mean.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

It's the same audience that is watching Rogan and everyone's getting validated by this cretinous, backwards 20th century thinking about the world we're living in.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And we're one of the last countries to sort of just be okay with this.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, and, but I've, I've said it before that once, you know, tolerance is removed from the equation, you know, democracy becomes nearly impossible.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

You know, there was this thing, I think John sent it to me about. There's this thing about the Step Brothers movie. The Step Brothers, great funny movie. And there's this sort of quality to it that feels like you can be a little. You could play with raced jokes, you could play with certain kind of jokes because at the time everyone felt like this has all been settled science, you.

[Brendan McDonald]

Know what I mean?

[Tim Heidecker]

Like, we are not, we don't have. We can play now because we've figured it all out and it feels like it's not the case right now. It's all coming back. And these ideas of, you know, white supremacy or homophobia, this trans scare, it's like it's all coming back and we have to just be loud about it.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, because as real World consequences because, you know, the authoritarian administration and the fascist cultural apparatus through the Christians is, you know, they're making policy built on the back of this anti woke thing. And that was, you know, all these comics who were like, you know, it was really about language and their own victimization that they saw.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Which wasn't real.

[Tim Heidecker]

Wasn't real.

[Marc Maron]

And now like, you know, they are tethered to political policies that are really killing people and damaging lives and infringing on the freedom of people and their rights.

[Tim Heidecker]

And none of it was ever funny. Like the, like these podcasts that these guys sit around and talk about the old days at the store and there's.

[Marc Maron]

A way to talk about it that's funny.

[Tim Heidecker]

Sure.

[Marc Maron]

But you know, to see Rogan get teared up about it, it's sort of, it's, it's a, it's a little rough, you know, but. But also the, the fact that they're, you know, they've They've elevated to this level of influencer where, you know, people are going to them for this information, and arguably, some of them were never funny. And, you know, if. If I've got, you know, I don't even like mentioning names because I won't give them any juice.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

But. But it's like, you know, the job of comedian, you know, it's a broad struggle spectrum. It's weird about limiting swagger because, like, your character that you do is.

[Tim Heidecker]

Is the Mr. Swagger.

[Marc Maron]

It's the definition of empty swagger. Right.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And I don't know where I saw that. I don't know what I picked up on to that, where I just like, oh, that's what those guys do when you don't have the material. It's all just about attitude stuff. But, yeah, I mean, that's what I was making fun of.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But. But I don't like. Because I thought that thing you did that you didn't do as Rogan, you know, you did with those other two guys.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Jeremy, how the fuck did you construct that? Did you write it? Or was there. Was there an intention? Did you say to these guys, like, never commit to anything that might be against what I'm saying, and never say anything?

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, the story. Yeah, sort of. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

We.

[Tim Heidecker]

We had a Google Doc which had like, some names and books. Like fake book names. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Subjects. And. And just those guys are such really funny, and they knew the world.

[Marc Maron]

Who are those guys?

[Tim Heidecker]

Rajat Suresh is one of the guys, and Jeremy Levick is the other, and they do their own stuff, and they were on Mulaney's show this year. As writers and stuff, they're very talented. We knew the world well enough that we could improvise around certain ideas and names. But the best thing that happened to us, cause they're in New York, and we shot it. We did it remotely. So I shot my side in our studio and we had a little crew set up in New York, and we just did it kind of over zoom, but filmed it, you know, and we got the footage back. And their audio was terrible. Yeah, it was like unusable.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Tim Heidecker]

And they tried to fix and everything. And I thought it was so great. I said, we just have to redo this.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And it was rare thing. I've never really. Never had to do that before. We have just completely reshoot something. But it was good because we had this rehearsal day where we just figured out I was able to like, say, that was really funny. Let's Try to do that again or maybe don't. Maybe we don't need to go down. That.

[Marc Maron]

It makes it probably better.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

It was a great, happy accident. But you know something where we shot for two hours and got an hour out of it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

So it was a lot of laughing.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

As a good time.

[Marc Maron]

Did you post that as part of.

[Tim Heidecker]

Just on office hours.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

So I don't know how you find.

[Marc Maron]

It anymore, but didn't it go viral a bit?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

People got it right away and it would hit at the right time where people were. I like to think that there was some. There's something annoying about his show that you can't put your finger on.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And we put our finger on it, you know, and said, this is what's annoying about it. And it wasn't even political. It was just like how boring it is and. And how certain, you know, going in circles you end up going.

[Marc Maron]

It's just a bunch of.

[Tim Heidecker]

Of guys. It has this tone of like what I remember from like the college rec center, you know, at three in the morning.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Which I don't want to go back and have those conversations again.

[Marc Maron]

You're skirting around an issue that you don't understand with information that. That you. You don't understand either.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

So, yeah, I just. It always bothered me. I always think the premise of that joke was that these guys talk in these. In loops and don't really get to anywhere. You never walk away getting, like, any answers and you just get more confused. And I've never made it to the end of one of those shows.

[Marc Maron]

I've never watched one. You know, like, I see clips. Yeah, I see clips occasionally.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

But, like, I find that I'm really out of the loop because after, you know, whatever happened the other day on Pod Save America.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, that. That sort of landed. And I gotta ask my producer. I'm like, are you seeing it out there? Because I guess I'm out of the loop. And it's everywhere in those fucking worlds. And I don't.

[Tim Heidecker]

Tony Hinchcliffe, I saw him talking about you. That's terrific. It's all good for you, Mark. I hope you understand.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I'm trying to understand because there's still part of me, and it's a real part of me that believes on some level we're all comics. But I know that that doesn't matter anymore. And what Tony was saying outside of, you know, with me and you, he was just hanging himself. Like, you know, like these guys, they show up every couple years.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because we're building an act.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, I know.

[Tim Heidecker]

We're doing the work.

[Marc Maron]

And he's like, I'm out there every day delivering comedy. And the whole premise, whether, you know.

[Tim Heidecker]

It'S like he's making Model Ts, well.

[Marc Maron]

But it's like he's couching it in this idea of wrestling where, you know, the essence of the show is, like, a guy who's not a good comic, you know, has, you know, hungry amateur comics out there to. To. To shit on him.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

That's very cruel. I mean, that's the show.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I, I, I. It's very hard to watch. And we did a parody of that too, but it was almost not. It's too. It's too gross to even make fun of.

[Marc Maron]

Well, he plays it like he's the heel.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, and that there is a spectacle element of it, but for me, it's like, stand up. You know, there is a craft to it, and it is. Comedy is a place where you can, you know, challenge things.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

As opposed to just create garbage.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

To titillate fucking, you know, fury and intolerance. So there's a counter to it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I don't relate to any of it because I'm not a standup, and I don't. I mean, I do it, but, like, the world I come from is not competitive in the way we work together. It is collaborative, and it is joyful and silly for the most part. And the bro y locker room vibe isn't there.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's also, like, for me, I've never been able to lock in with that. I don't lock in with that many people, really. Like, if I think of myself in high school, I knew those guys, but I'd kind of, you know, subvert, you know, insults with. Yeah, I would kind of move between groups, but I never, you know, I never sit there. I was never able to just kind of like, you know, like, I'm gonna go hang out with the dudes, you know, I mean, I do it with comics now, but I was never that guy. I was always too uncomfortable.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know. I was never a nerd either.

[Brendan McDonald]

Sorry.

[Marc Maron]

I was just a guy.

[Tim Heidecker]

Touched the.

[Marc Maron]

I'm not freaked out about it, but I don't. So it's not really where I come from, but where I come from is just as valid. I don't know, man. What are we gonna do?

[Tim Heidecker]

I don't know, because people think I'm obsessed with this world because I talk about it a Lot. Or I talk about politics. I think from the beginning, we've just been people. Whether it was the Tim and Eric stuff or whatever I do, I'm just looking at the world and it's filtering through and coming back out as what I think is funny or.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, that's right.

[Tim Heidecker]

And this seems to be the thing that's in the middle of the room right now, you know, from our perspective. Maybe it's not for everybody else, sure. But for me, it's fascinating watching this PBD show. I'll send you clips of these guys and you'll just go, yeah, of course. You're watching this every day. Because it's fascinating that these people are sucking up oxygen and getting eyeballs and breaking brains. And breaking brains and normalizing, reinforcing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, Some, you know, you know, up.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And it often comes back out of me. It regurgitates into something that is amusing to people, it's funny or creatively satisfying to me, but it's hard to ignore this, the situation.

[Marc Maron]

But how do you, like, you know, like, I talked to a guy last week, Peter Conheim, who was with Negative Land.

[Tim Heidecker]

Okay.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, and back in the day, there was this idea of culture jamming, you know, where you would put something into the machine that would kind of like, you know, fuck it up.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

You know, whether it be a satirical brand, I think, like, I think that probably one of the great culture jams was the Illuminati conspiracy was invented by a couple of hippies, Right.

[Tim Heidecker]

Robert Anton Wilson, he was part of.

[Marc Maron]

It, and the other guy.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

But it was in reaction to the John Birch Society, right, that, you know, they were trying to, you know, figure out a way across all avenues of information at that time to put this in the world, you know, as a means to, you know, create this incredible prank that they were these. That these forces were all part of it.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And now it's established as something that people believe in. So I think it's an effective prank, but it kind of backfired on itself over time.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But don't. Do you ever think about, like, as an intention, you know, how do we. Or you, you know, start fucking with what you're saying? This sucking up air business, I mean, there's a lot of amateurs that do it and they do their little reels and they're like, you know, they do their little sketches and stuff.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

But a real way to cause some, you know, some shit. Because I think there's a vulnerability to it all now.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

The thing you're up against is that all these communities are so siloed and they don't engage with each other.

[Tim Heidecker]

No.

[Marc Maron]

So somehow you've got to create a self detonating bomb.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I mean, I want to explore more like the numbers that these people have. It just feels wrong, you know, really, are there. Are they really. Are they really tuning in for all.

[Marc Maron]

This, like 100 million people?

[Producer/Assistant]

Or.

[Tim Heidecker]

I mean, Hinchcliffe is doing Madison Square Garden. I guess people are going to that, you know, but so is Segura.

[Marc Maron]

And Segura is like, you know, for whether you like them or not is a real comic.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

But a lot of them lean pretty heavily into their audience because they can churn out hours all the time now because everybody's up to speed.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And you can just finish stories right. As your show.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Like, you guys remember when I did the. Well, here's what happened.

[Tim Heidecker]

Inside joke look. What? Back to the cult thing. But their numbers are bigger.

[Marc Maron]

But it's inside. Right. It's an inside joke thing. But, you know, it's their audience. I get it.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

You know, people are up to speed.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

But like, there are guys in that world that I don't have any issue with.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

You know, Segura, Burt. I don't. You know, it's fine. You know, they're doing the comedy. It's the ideologues and the people that have this position about what comedy should be, that. That are frightening to me.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But like. Yeah, maybe the place to start is the numbers, but I just feel like there's got to be a way to. To somehow, with some consistency, create, you know, you know, malignant cells of information.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

It feels like it's starting. I mean, that elephant graveyard video is so great.

[Marc Maron]

It's the best.

[Tim Heidecker]

And, and the new one. Yeah, the new one. And that gets a lot of views, too. And you'd got to think that there's people that are getting a little tired of the talk. The, the. Yeah, the. The endless conversation that isn't going anywhere. You're not getting anything back from. From it.

[Marc Maron]

You would think. I mean, that's the bigger question. Is it getting exhausted or is it still reinforcing everything? I mean, I know that Joe's kind of changing his tune now.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Tim Heidecker]

How convenient. You know?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. But the thing is, like, you know, he did what he did.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Tim Heidecker]

Oh, and so, yeah, there's no, like, you're an adult and there are consequences for getting that involved to the point where you had the guy on the show and then endorsed explicitly to your audience.

[Marc Maron]

But I also think there's this framework where, and I think I talked about it on that pod Save America where it's like these people are fundamentally anti Democratic. So like there's no two party solution to people that, you know, shamelessly and forcefully believe that liberal democracy is bullshit.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And so what do you do up against that?

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, they might win is part of it.

[Marc Maron]

No, they are winning.

[Tim Heidecker]

You know, I mean, they are. I mean the real very fundamental things are gonna, could start going away.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that, well, that's happening.

[Tim Heidecker]

I mean, you're right, you're right.

[Marc Maron]

I'm saying like that's my argument with them. It's like, okay, you guys started this anti woke shit and everybody was upset about pronouns and not being able to say retard. But you know, now they have policy built around this and there's real world consequences for everybody. And, and that aside from just the smaller world consequences is once you free those words, you're freeing kids to be disrespectful.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Because they think it's cool again or they think it's fun.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I mean, no, by the way, let me take back. It is happening, fully happening. But you know, the big things like. Well, again, yeah, you're right. I keep thinking about it because I'm like, well no, that is actually happening.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, right.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

There's the, the troops on the streets, you know, like how much clearer. I mean, sure handed. I mean again, these people are coming, they're, they're flip flopping. We can call them flip floppers now. Finally, like Tim Dillon saying, this is all, this is all what Alex Jones was worried about happening. Yeah, he said that the other day.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, did he?

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah, but it's like you got, you had J.D. vance on your show, you had RFK. You like, you did fundraisers for RFK Junior.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. So how do you.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah, but I mean, I guess we should be glad that they're saying something.

[Marc Maron]

But no, I guess so because like that's where you come back to like. So you comics are landing back in it. Yeah, you know, you got your little rise to power, but you know, now you're on the hook.

[Tim Heidecker]

But the, the powers that be don't care because they got what they, they're in now.

[Marc Maron]

So we gotta. I, I just want to, I want to figure out like, I, I guess what I think is missing and what I think that, you know, I do in my own way with stand up and, or with just, you know, blabbing is some sort of, you know, functional, impactful, creative resistance.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Not just like, you know, like. Well, we're going to do this thing.

[Tim Heidecker]

Eagle Rock Fundraiser.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, fundraiser. Or like, we're all doing a show. You know, it's two drag queens and this transition guy.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But they're all really funny. It's a dynasty. And we're gonna put all the proceeds to like, look, that's all great.

[Tim Heidecker]

Sure.

[Marc Maron]

But, you know, how do we blow it up from the inside? Dude, it has to be done through the information platform.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

It has to be done.

[Tim Heidecker]

I'm gonna get on it. I'm gonna get.

[Brendan McDonald]

You will?

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah, I'll get my team and. Well, I mean, listen, we'll just. For us, we just will keep goofing on it. That's all I know how to do. But yeah, that's probably not enough. Right.

[Marc Maron]

Well, the goof has to have. You know, the problem is, is that if there's a revelation in the goof and you know, ultimately what you've got to accept is that it's not going to change your target at all.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

You know, it's not going to impact the target, but it kind of is with like these comics who are sort of like, whoa, whoa. All of a sudden, like, hey, you know, you owe us a favor.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I think there's a fair amount of them that, not to boast, but were probably fans of ours that are uncomfortable with me.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And that is interesting, I guess.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know. I do know that I landed something somewhere because talking about it.

[Tim Heidecker]

Oh, sure, sure. And I think your. Your resonance is impactful and giving some cover for other people to be more.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's all we can hope for, right?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I just, I just, I wish that there was some. The problem is everything's decentralized. There's no common language. There's no full community of people that are making choices as a community. Everyone's just sort of shut in and insulated within their bubbles of what they take in. And how do we unlock the brains? But I mean, look, I've got no solutions, but there is something. And also when you land one of these things, even like elephant graveyard, it's like, are those just like minded people watching it? But even that's fine if it raises an awareness where conversations can happen.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, yeah, and it like, again, back to my little parody I did. It's like it scratches an itch about what was bothering you about something and it fills in some of the holes.

[Marc Maron]

That's right.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. We need more Hole fillers.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But. So why do you think it's. How are you. Because with me, the negative attention, you know, there's a couple ways to look at it that was brought to my attention by my producers that, like, I don't like negative attention. It hurts me and it scares me. But I don't like being a coward either. And I don't like not feeling like I can speak freely.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

So you gotta make a choice with that.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You can be only as diplomatic as you can be before you're like, fuck this.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And I've always been more fuck this. But you know what I'm saying. Cause these guys love negative attention. You know, the.

[Brendan McDonald]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But that's because they see it as like they pissed off the people they hate.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

So, you know, on some level, I've got. You've got to reframe the negative tension as like, oh, good, I'm glad I pissed these guys off.

[Tim Heidecker]

There's a little bit of that.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I mean, there's some stuff that is just too funny to stop to not talk about and to too crazy to not talk about. You know, if you saw any of that thing that Trump, him in the Oval Office with the hat on. Trump was right about everything. And he looks like. Like he is dying.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Producer/Assistant]

Right.

[Tim Heidecker]

And I think it's funny to talk about him dying.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

You know?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And I want to goof around about that and like, what his. What are we going to do with the body and how long is it going to take to burn it?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And you know, what's it called? Gonna smell like.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, also there's this idea that, like, once people get past the fact, it's like, you know, calling them out on double standards, that means nothing.

[Tim Heidecker]

I know. Well, of course. Yeah. Like, no, I will. I'm. I have the capacity to get very crude and dark.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And I like going into that place.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Cause it transcends all that.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And it's also like a lot of my comedy, I think, comes from, like a place of meaninglessness.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, like, we're all gonna end up in the dirt.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

So let's goof around about it a little bit.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

At least acknowledge it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I try to every morning.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So what. What is happening right now with you? What do we. What are you doing?

[Tim Heidecker]

You're gonna do those shows and I don't have, you know, low stakes there. I'm just going to try some. Sure. So let's not focus because this is an international audience That's a small room.

[Marc Maron]

Don't fly in for the Elysian.

[Tim Heidecker]

I do have one thing to plug, which is a little hard to explain, but Greg Turkington, Mark Proach, and I. Mark, people know from what we do in the Shadows. And the K. Strass. Yo yo guy who's on the Office. Him. Mark and Greg and I have had a text thread for. And I'm sure you do, too. I can't keep up. But we've had one for 12, 13 years. That's, like, legitimately the funniest thing that I experience, like, on a regular basis. It is cry, laughing material. That is me and Greg beating up on Mark, trying to get him to do shit and trying to get him to. And it got. We all love it and we invest a lot of time in it. Like, we do it all the time. And we've started to edit them and compile them, and we're putting them out as a weekly. Like, weekly serialized installments of short stories, basically.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Tim Heidecker]

And it's called. It's at Marion's. Marianswish.com M A R I O-N-Wish.com.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And you sign up for it and you get this every week. You get this little piece and we have, you know, a couple thousand pages of material to go through.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And it's very crude and it's very disgusting and. And, you know, it was meant for just the three of us.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And now we're picking the bones of our private.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Your private, perverse comedy.

[Tim Heidecker]

We put it out as a. We put out, like, a small chunk in 2020 called Marion's Wish, and we put it out as, like, a free ebook.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And people loved it. And we've just trying to figure out how to do more. And we're gonna try it this way, so that's fun.

[Marc Maron]

What about that movie you made in New Mexico when I ran into you out there?

[Tim Heidecker]

That's called Him. And by the way, that was a great time with you.

[Marc Maron]

We had fun. Ended up having dinner with.

[Tim Heidecker]

That's public, right? We can talk.

[Marc Maron]

Aubrey Plaza and Margaret Qualley.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Cause they were staying down the street. Were I staying there, too?

[Tim Heidecker]

No, you're staying at your new place.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

But I don't know if you remember that or if you've said this, but we want you. You're very nice. We. We ran into each other at the Burbank Airport.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And I was thinking about this this morning, that when. When you run into, like, a friend or somebody, you know, Both going on Southwest. You're just going to sit next to each other.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. You can do that.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, you have to do that.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

It would be weird, I think.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You go find your seat.

[Tim Heidecker]

But anyway.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

You took me out to Los Poblanos.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yes. Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And we get there and you say to the hostess, are there any famous people here tonight? As like a joke? Kind of.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

But also like, you know, hey, just plain. I think you knew her or something.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, I did.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

But just like, you know, hey, it's me.

[Brendan McDonald]

And. Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Who? The famous people.

[Tim Heidecker]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because they all stay there.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And you were right because there was Aubrey and Margaret and we know them or I knew Aubrey very well.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And I didn't know who. I didn't know who Margaret Qualley was.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I had seen her in movies, I guess.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I didn't put it together.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, she's pretty great. She was fun.

[Tim Heidecker]

We had a great time.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then we went to that weird little stand up.

[Tim Heidecker]

And then you did stand up, and I just want to say it was just like a local thing, you know.

[Marc Maron]

It was a little alt comedy.

[Tim Heidecker]

Some of the people weren't gonna go far in this business. But you came out, and I was just moved by just how much better you were than everybody else.

[Brendan McDonald]

Thank God.

[Tim Heidecker]

Just like. Well, yeah, but just to watch somebody kind of just try a couple things, I just. I'm always impressed with people that are very good at what they do.

[Marc Maron]

Well, thanks, man. I appreciate that. It was fun.

[Tim Heidecker]

And that movie's called Him.

[Marc Maron]

Is that the football movie?

[Tim Heidecker]

It is a football horror movie.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It looks pretty intense.

[Tim Heidecker]

It's really. I haven't seen it, but it's.

[Marc Maron]

I didn't see you in the trailer.

[Tim Heidecker]

No, I didn't make the trailer. And I think. I mean, I know I'm in it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

I think there's an element to my character that you might not want to put in the trailer, if that makes sense. Okay. I guess. But that's a good pitch.

[Marc Maron]

That's a good problem.

[Tim Heidecker]

I'm good in it.

[Brendan McDonald]

Okay.

[Tim Heidecker]

You know, thank God Jordan Peele and his company are fans. Think of me for things.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

The second movie I'm doing with them.

[Marc Maron]

And Marlon's great, right?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I always have fun with Marlon.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, I wasn't in anything with him, but apparently he's great.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

He said he's a good actor, but he's a funny guy. He's a guy that, like, he likes to laugh. So if you get him going, it's pretty fun.

[Tim Heidecker]

It's so nerve wracking doing that stuff. I don't know how you feel about it. I think it's just like a lot of waiting.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And do you have this thing? I have this thing where first day, I never sleep the night before. I get so nervous. And then that fucks you so badly because then not only are you still nervous, but you're also sleep deprived. Just that first couple of scenes where you're supposed to say the things. I don't care how many times I've gone over it and worked on it, it comes out like, let me just do it. Can I go back and do that again?

[Marc Maron]

Shit.

[Tim Heidecker]

And then you feel like, what am I doing?

[Marc Maron]

I've got three lines.

[Tim Heidecker]

How did I get in this position?

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It's a taxing undertaking, all that for a lot of reasons. But it leveled off.

[Tim Heidecker]

Okay.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

And then I get. Everyone's nice, everyone's cool, everyone. You know, I find my pace.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And it's also a collaborative thing. It's not all, you know. You weren't the lead or anything.

[Tim Heidecker]

No, I was not the lead.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

It'll be fun. It's fun to be in those big movies. Sort of the things that everyone sees and then people see.

[Marc Maron]

Hey, there he was.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Tim Heidecker]

Hey, man, it's cool. I saw you in that thing.

[Marc Maron]

I saw you in that thing. All right, man.

[Tim Heidecker]

Well, I'm glad to talk to you.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it was fun.

[Tim Heidecker]

Congratulations. Thanks, man.

[Marc Maron]

There you go. Tim heidecker.com to sign up for alerts about his tour dates and to check out all the various shows he does. Funny guy, smart guy, interesting guy. Hang out for a minute. Hey, people. On Thursday, I talked to one of our great American film directors. Mr. Spike Lee, joins me in the garage. And also like the two comedy things because I'm a comic, the original kings of comedy, which is great. Thank you. I remember I was at the. What year was that? I was at the comedy festival in Aspen, Colorado, probably in the mid-90s. And they'd flown Bernie out there. And it's the middle of the snow, Bernie. And there's only white people in Aspen. And it was one of the best things I ever fucking saw in my life. Yeah, because, you know, he's bringing a world just by nature of who he is. It's just that there's a raw world that has not been made, you know, in any way. Sort of like something that not white people can necessarily understand. And to see it in Aspen, Colorado, they dug it though, right? Well, they. When they got past the fear. How to get past that first. Right.

[Brendan McDonald]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Sometimes it's hard, you know?

[Tim Heidecker]

I understand.

[Marc Maron]

That's Thursday's show. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. I think I've done this song before, but I don't think I've done it on acoustic. Just trying to do this jigsaw puzzle.

[Brendan McDonald]

Sa.

[Marc Maron]

Boomer lives monkey and la fonda cat angels everywhere.