Episode 1675 - Spike Lee

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron – Episode #1675: Spike Lee

Release Date: September 4, 2025
Guest: Spike Lee
Main Theme: A deep dive into Spike Lee’s process as a filmmaker, his enduring partnership with Denzel Washington, the legacy and evolution of New York City as a creative setting, generational and artistic influences, and the artistic/ethical weight of filmmaking.

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Episode Overview

Marc Maron welcomes iconic filmmaker Spike Lee for an intimate conversation about Lee’s new film Highest to Lowest (premiering on Apple TV+), his legendary body of work, and what it means to create art with social conscience. The episode moves from the personal—upbringing, creative inspiration—to sharp analysis of genre, collaboration, and the ever-changing dynamics of New York. Maron and Lee also reflect on the cultural resonance of 20th-century cinema, the ethics of storytelling, and the ever-relevant politics of race in America and Hollywood.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Spike Lee & Highest to Lowest: The New Film

• Genesis of the Project

  • Denzel Washington brought the script, adapted from Akira Kurosawa’s High and Low, to Spike Lee.
  • Lee instantly knew he’d direct:

    “When I hung up the phone, I knew I was doing it already.” (Spike Lee, 15:15)

  • Their collaboration is built on trust:

    “His magnificence… and also, the relationship we’ve had with the four films.” (Spike, 15:18)

• Approach to Adaptation

  • Lee compares the adaptation process to jazz musicians reinterpreting standards:

    “We were Coltrane. And not necessarily, you know, Julie Andrews. We... flipped standards. That was our approach.” (Spike Lee, 16:45)

  • Not a remake, but a “reinterpretation” with its own vibe and ethics (17:09).

• Layering Moral Dilemmas and Generational Weight

  • The film, much like the original, explores class, friendship, and morality in a contemporary NYC music industry.
  • Discussion of the film’s “passing moments” and their power, e.g., a father’s subtle affection and private doubt (19:10–19:24).

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Collaboration with Denzel Washington

• On-Set Chemistry & Improvisation

  • Lee trusts Denzel to improvise, as seen in past films:

    “I’m not going to tell Denzel, you can’t improv here… Denzel has the instincts.” (Spike Lee, 34:11, 35:23)

  • Anecdotes about Denzel’s competitiveness and authenticity (see the basketball scene in He Got Game, 34:51–35:22).

• Denzel’s Influence for the Role

  • Denzel’s presence sets the tone for his co-stars. Ethan Hawke studied him for Training Day:

    “He was watching Denzel movies like teams watch the opposing team’s game tapes…” (Marc Maron, 35:39)

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New York City: Changing City, Constant Muse

• NYC as Character

  • Lee’s films are rooted in place.

    “One of the primary characters is New York City, right?” (Marc Maron, 21:55)

  • Lee reflects on the evolution of Brooklyn and the city’s neighborhoods (22:00–23:01).

• Gentrification and Artist Access

  • The city is less accessible to young creatives now:

    “You can’t do that no more, not in New York City… rent is crazy.” (Spike, 26:09)

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Family, Upbringing & Early Inspirations

• Creative Household

  • Spike’s father, Bill Lee, was a jazz and folk bassist

    “My father refused to play electric bass. My mother had to go to work… We did a starve.” (Spike, 28:26)

  • These struggles and stories inspired Crooklyn—his most globally beloved film, according to Lee (29:04–29:12).

• Art, Music, & Film as Parallel Sources

  • Billy Lee’s music forms the score of early films (She's Gotta Have It, Do the Right Thing, Mo’ Better Blues, etc.)
  • Intergenerational influence and creative inheritance are discussed honestly and humorously in terms of sports fandom, too (31:31–32:03).

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Style, Technique & Artistic Growth

• Color & Cinematic Devices

  • On using color:

    “I love black and white films, but it’s the story for me—the story tells you what you should do.” (Spike, 39:44)

  • On the famed double dolly shot:

    “The best use… is in Malcolm X... because I did a lot of interviews and more than one person said that they thought that Malcolm knew he was going to assassination…” (Spike, 43:37, 44:02)

• Influences

  • NYU film school exposed Lee to Kurosawa, Scorsese, and Jim Jarmusch:

    “Marty was not there… Oliver Stone was not there… so my contemporary was Jim Jarmusch.” (38:49–39:17)

  • Lee is now a tenured teacher at NYU, helping aspiring filmmakers.

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Doc Filmmaking, Social Justice & Responsibility

• Making a Difference: 4 Little Girls & Beyond

  • Lee shares the emotional and political impact of his documentaries:

    “One of my proudest moments. That film sent some people back to prison after many, many years they were around free.” (Spike, 56:25)

  • Discusses ethics in showing shocking, true images and the emotional impact on the subjects’ families (57:02–58:29).

• Documentaries vs. Narrative Films

  • Distinct muscles, but united under the umbrella of storytelling; each discipline informs the other (53:47–54:02, 61:17–61:30).

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The Business, Recognition, and Awards

• On Oscars & Recognition:
  • Lee discusses how important (and not important) awards are:

    “Do the Right Thing wasn’t even nominated for an Oscar… I don’t let that deter me… I’m mad for a day. Then just keep it moving.” (Spike, 63:38, 64:06)

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Comedy, Culture, and Crossover

• Collaborations with Comics

  • Lee’s love of and connection to comedy:

    “Comedians—tough business!… You’re butt naked up there.” (Spike, 69:13, 72:23)

  • Behind the scenes on The Original Kings of Comedy, working with Bernie Mac and Robin Harris (66:02–66:41; 66:46–67:33).

• On Bombing in Comedy (and Art)

  • Marc and Spike connect over the reality and fear of artistic failure:

    “For so much of your career early on, you’ve got to pretend that you’re not afraid.” (Marc, 69:47)
    “Pretend that you’re not afraid. And then… live in that until the fear goes away.” (Marc, 69:51)

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Artistic Morality & Social Satire

• Cultural Satire’s Resonance

  • Bamboozled is discussed as biting, poetic, and painful:

    “The real film is about that last two minute montage… blackface history, and the cartoons… And that’s what the film’s about.” (Spike, 50:45–51:06)

• Classic Inspirations: ‘A Face in the Crowd’ & ‘Ace in the Hole’

  • Lee admires the cynicism and moral complexity of these older films:

    “It’s like morality, which is a big thing in our field.” (Spike, 77:54)

  • He shares a personal promise to complete a script with legendary screenwriter Budd Schulberg (75:49–76:12).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Acting with Denzel Washington:

  “Because of Denzel. You know—his magnificence.” (Spike Lee, 15:17)

• On improvisation and trust:

  “When you have great musicians or great actors, you let them go.” (Spike Lee, 34:32)

• On passing time and artistic legacy:

  “Time waits for no one.” (Spike Lee, 15:39)

• On the mental toll of creativity and anxiety:

  “My brain is just wired to be panicky, to look for the worst, and then when the worst doesn’t happen, to question that, and then maybe to take more steps that make it worse in a different way.” (Marc Maron, 09:35)

• On documentary’s social power:

  “That film sent people back to prison after many, many years.” (Spike Lee, 56:25)

• On morality in film:

  “For me, this film is... the weight of the film is about morals.” (Spike Lee, 19:31)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro and personal update – 00:00–11:47
• Spike Lee joins, talks LA & the new film – 13:41
• Origin of Highest to Lowest collaboration – 14:51
• Adapting Kurosawa via Jazz – 16:33
• New York as character & gentrification – 21:55–26:09
• Family, creativity, Crooklyn – 26:53–29:12
• Improvising with Denzel & actor anecdotes – 34:03–36:43
• Artistic influences: Jim Jarmusch, Scorsese, Spielberg – 39:44–41:15
• Color, style, technical choices – 43:07
• Oscars and keeping perspective – 63:13
• Documentaries, 4 Little Girls FBI story – 54:07–56:25
• Comedy, vulnerability and creativity – 69:01–72:23
• Moral weight and classic films – 75:35–78:18

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Conclusion

This episode is a thoughtful and wide-ranging reflection on art, ethics, and endurance, held between two creators who deeply respect craft and risk. Fans of Spike Lee and film in general will find this a rewarding—and at times moving—hour, packed with wisdom, humor, and a granular appreciation for the intersections of history, cinema, and real life. Spike’s closing words emphasize ongoing creative projects, his unwavering partnership with Denzel, and a continuous search for honest storytelling.

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New Listeners Should Know:

• Highest to Lowest debuts on Apple TV+ September 5, 2025
• Spike Lee continues to teach, make documentaries, and is working on further projects (including a Budd Schulberg collaboration)
• Spike and Marc connect on how art, comedy, and life all hang in the balance between courage and vulnerability.

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Suggested Segment for Re-Listen:

• Kurosawa, Jazz, Adaptation – The discussion around 16:33–17:09 is especially revealing of Lee’s creative philosophy.
• Documentary Impact, 4 Little Girls – Spike’s account at 54:07–58:29 is both moving and historically significant.
• On Bombing and Artistic Fear – Marc and Spike at 69:47 onwards is candid, funny, and inspiring for any creative.

Transcript

[Marc Maron]

Lock the gate. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the. What the Buddies. What the fuck Sticks? What's happening? I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. How's it going out there? It's so hot here. So fucking hot. I'm not complaining, I'm just telling you. I'm stating a fact. It's fucking hot. I'm one of these people, though. I don't. I don't really mind the heat. I don't mind it. I prefer it dry. I'll take it dry, as opposed to mushy and wet and sticky. I'll take it dry. It's about 100, 101, something like that. But I don't know, man. There's something about this type of heat that it's so intense that it relaxes me. I think that's another word for dehydrated. I feel woozy. I feel kind of like I'm just sludging along. But I guess what it is is that it makes me feel kind of buzzed. It's nice sometimes to, when you're sober like I am, to kind of feel like you're almost gonna pass out for a few minutes. That's what you're looking for, that nice little sweet spot of not quite passed out. And you spend a little time on the porch or even just going down the street in heat like this, it's like, whoa, man, I'm about to go down. That ain't bad. It's too hot. Maybe that's what I'm trying to say. So today on the show, I talked to Spike Lee. Look, he's done a lot of big, amazing movies. Do the Right Thing, Bamboozled, Malcolm X, Jungle Fever, She's Gotta have It. I'm just naming them off the top of my head right now. Spike has made a lot of movies, and his latest movie with Denzel Washington is highest to lowest, and it's going to be on Apple TV. Plus, starting tomorrow, 25th hour was another one. That was a good one. There's a lot of movies. Crooklyn is actually one of my favorite. Spike Lee movies with Spike will be here. He's on this show today. Couple of things, big things to announce today. I told you about the new book we're working on with writer and illustrator Box Brown. It's called WTF Is a Podcast, a Graphic novel History of the show, published by Z2. Starting today, you can pre order for the book on Kickstarter. The book is already funded, but we're using Kickstarter So you can get more than just the book. You can order just the book or. Or limited edition versions of the book. But there are also tiers for you to get signed merchandise from me and Box Brown or get yourself drawn into the book or get a signed wind guard from my microphone, huh? And one person can get their own episode of wtf. We'll record a private episode with you and edit it like every other WTF episode. And you'll have something that no one else has. Go to Z2Comics.com WTF that's Z. And the number two comics.com WTF also, the documentary about me, Are We Good? Will be in theaters Friday, October 3rd in New York and Los Angeles with nationwide screening Sunday, October 5th and Wednesday, October 8th. Get tickets now at arewegoodmaren.com and you can watch the trailer on Rolling Stones website. What do you think of that, huh? And also, also, I'll be at Largo with the band next Wednesday, September 10th. You can go to wtfpod.com tour for tickets. Sorry, that was a lot of business. A lot of business. I think my who Wants to Be a Millionaire is gonna be on. I don't know when, maybe. I don't know, maybe tonight I should know, but I don't. I just remembered that. But it's me and Sarah Silverman and I can't. I guess I can't tell you anything else. I can't tell you anything else, but. But no, I can't say anything. Look, you guys, I'm becoming an older fella and, well, this is kind of twofold, I guess, what I've gone through, what I've put myself through over the last few weeks, it seems to me that when I have a lot of good things going on and that my life, from all appearances, is pretty good, I will find something to focus on that will make it bad for me, that I can acknowledge all the good things. And, you know, I would say 45% of me is like, you know, feeling pretty grounded in that. But then there's about 55% that's sort of like, I don't know, man. Something's. Something's fucked up. And the last few weeks it's been. I decided I had cancer and it wasn't based on much. I don't want to go into specifics because I don't want to open the floodgates to people emailing me about what I should have done, what it might be like. I don't want them to disregard the story and get specific with me. And share their stories about something like mine, and yet they still had cancer. So I want to enforce some denial here that I can maintain by holding back a little bit of information. But I thought I had cancer. I was pretty focused on this one thing, and I kind of rolled it around in my mind for a bit and hyper focused on it and then decided, I'll go to the doc. And I go to the doctor. I go to the doctor. I usually go to the same practice, but I saw a different doctor and this guy. Look, seemed a little young to me. That's already an old guy thing. But I was like, I don't know this guy. Where's my guy? Okay, I gotta get in there. I gotta get in there today because I'm spiraling. I'm sure I'm dying. He checks me out pretty thoroughly for the thing, and he says, I'm not concerned about this. I'm like, okay, does that mean I'm good? He goes, well, I'm not concerned. What does that mean? Well, come back in three months. We'll check it out. Then I'm like, so. But it looks all right, right? I'm not concerned about it. Like, I think this might be kind of an issue with modern medicine. Well, I don't know. With medicine in general, maybe it's not. Maybe there are specific types of doctors that can only say, I'm 90%. I'm pretty damn sure. I'm very confident. I'm not concerned, as opposed to no. Because I guess there's a barrage of tests that one needs to go through, and if you want to make doubly sure. So they're basically saying, like, I don't think you need the tests, and God knows I would make money if you got the test, so maybe you should believe me. Fine. So I get that done, but I'm still obsessing about it. And I wait about a week or so, and I can't. I'm looking at it. I think it's growing. I think it's, you know, changing this. Changing colors, changing shape, whatever. So I call another guy who I know, another doc, the correct kind of doc for this kind of thing, who I've seen before. And I go into him, and he gets it under the microscope. He thoroughly checks it out. I ask him questions. He goes, I think you're fine. I think you're fine. I'm like, fine. Okay, well, that's two. And then I go home for another two weeks, and I'm like, oh, fuck. It's like totally cancer. And then I Go back to the original place to see my original doctor. And this is after I texted the second doctor a few times. Like, I'm not sure, dude. I'm looking at this thing. Doesn't look right. He's like, I've been doing this 20 years, and I am beyond extremely confident, which is better than I'm not concerned. Beyond extremely confident that it's not a problem. That's pretty good. That's about as good as you're gonna get from a doctor without testing. But that didn't stop me. I went back to the first place I saw the other. The doc that I usually see, he looked at it. He said, look, I think it's fine, 90% sure. And, you know, you can get further tests, but that's going to be intrusive and, I believe, unnecessary. But I'll do them. But I think you should just come back in two months and we'll see what happens. I'm like, two months? He's like, but it doesn't look like cancer, right? So he goes, two months. Two months is not long for this type of thing. And we'll just do that. And I was waiting to see that doctor. And this is the old guy part where I said, what was the name of that guy I came to saw here before? And he told me the guy's name. Like, how old is that guy? Like, how old do you think he is? And the guy says, probably his mid-30s. I'm like, so he's been doing it a while. He goes, I don't know. But it's such an old guy thing to be like, wait, I don't want to see the young doctor. Where's the guy I usually see? He's not old, but he's older than you. I don't want to. I don't want the kid. I don't want to see the kids. Send in the grownup doctor. I was not proud of that. I was not proud that I thought that way, But I don't think it's that unusual. Now the big question is, can I sit with it for two months and not go see a fourth doctor? I don't know. Only time will tell, I guess. As Kit pointed out, there is something about me going into these spirals, whatever they're about, whether they're about cats or something that needs to be done in the house. And there's an urgency to it. Like, when I freak out, I'm like, we gotta get this done now. Whatever it is, even if it's not medical, even if it's just, you know, I panic about trees in my yard. It doesn't matter. But whatever it is, there's an urgency attached to it that is bad. And it makes me think that maybe the medicine I'm on is working, maybe it's not. And maybe I just have these neural pathways in my head that just drive me this way. And the thing was, even after the third doctor, kind of confirming what the other two said that they didn't believe it was something to be concerned about, there was a bit of disappointment. It's almost like, let's do a fucking biopsy or whatever needs to be done. And then when that's confirmed, then I can just sit there and wonder why I've got this hole in my body and what did I do that was stupid? Like, there's. My brain is just wired to be panicky, to look for the worst, and then when the worst doesn't happen, to question that, and then maybe to take more steps that make it worse in a different way. So I never get out of that. And I don't know why I'm sharing this with you. Maybe it's helpful, I don't know. But I just can't give myself a break. And I better learn to, because I'm going to have a bit of time here, and I like to enjoy that time. Is that possible? I got a buddy who's going through his own health issues. This is just a stage of life I'm entering. But isn't there a way. Should I just go out and buy some stuff? Give some more money to charity? That's about the best thing I could do to make me feel like I'm doing something. But, yeah, I'm okay right now. All right. I think I should tell you that after talking to Jackson Galaxy again. This is another example, because I'm having this trouble with Charlie beating up Buster. I've had him separated for, like, two and a half weeks because Jackson told me to do that. But I'm pestering Jackson. I'm like, I'm not optimistic about this. What do we do next? And Jackson Galaxy came to my house and hung out with me and the cats for, like, two hours and told me, like, look, I have not seen a cat like Charlie. I've not seen a cat Charlie's age.

[Spike Lee]

That.

[Marc Maron]

That is just fucking nuts. And I'm like, okay, of course I get that cat. Or, of course I made that cat. I don't know what, but. And I'm like, what do we do? And then he's like, lays out this Whole regimen where I've gotta play with him, like, three times a day in intervals so I can peter him out. I've gotta reward him after the play. Maybe I add a feeding before bed so that kind of wides away. I've got to figure out a pattern of doing this so he's distracted enough with the pattern I've created that maybe he'll lay off Buster. Meanwhile, Buster's on Busporin, which is the same thing I'm on. And I don't know, I hope it works for both of us. I think it's working for me sometimes. I don't know if it's working for Buster. Apparently it's gonna give him confidence and make him super cat. But the diagnosis is that if Buster's gonna act like prey, then Charlie's going to treat him that way. So that's. Now that I'm off the cancer. Now I can fully focus back on, you know, the tension in my house. I don't know, man. I got to make some choices here because I'm going to have some time. Some time can try to focus on, you know, making a movie, but whatever. So, look, Spike Lee is here, and his new movie, Highest to Lowest, premieres on Apple TV. Plus tomorrow, September 5th. It's based on an Akira Kurosawa movie, which I watched, which is also great. He's obviously done all the movies. He's one of America's great film directors. I was happy he came by. This is me talking to Spike Lee. Yeah. This is exciting for me. How do you feel about Los Angeles when you come here generally?

[Spike Lee]

Weather's nice.

[Marc Maron]

That's it. That's the end of it.

[Spike Lee]

I'm not.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know.

[Spike Lee]

I have a lot of friends here. I was just messing with you.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, you do all right out here.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get a lot of love. A lot of love in la.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I went to the screening last night and it was very. Where?

[Spike Lee]

At the Academy?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Very moving speech you gave at the beginning.

[Spike Lee]

I said, let's go. Why talk? We're getting. We're getting ready to see the movie. Just let it. Let's go.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. Have you talked about it?

[Spike Lee]

Oh, I've been doing a lot, you.

[Marc Maron]

Know, a lot of press.

[Spike Lee]

A lot of press.

[Marc Maron]

Do you set it up generally? Do you go up there?

[Spike Lee]

But no, I mean, interviews, not. Yes, sure. Speaking before screenings.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because I went, you know, I kind of jumped back in. I don't think I'd watch a Kurosawa movie in a long Time.

[Spike Lee]

No. You've been missing out.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I've seen them, you know, when I was younger, studying.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

You haven't.

[Spike Lee]

You have not revisited them, huh?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I haven't seen this one. And it's a later one, right?

[Spike Lee]

1963.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And when you're doing a movie like this, what's the kernel of, you know, why. Why out of everything you know and have seen, do you decide to do that?

[Spike Lee]

Well, thank you. You know, I don't think we've met before. Thank you. Have me on your show.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Spike Lee]

Denzel does this crypto go around for a lot of years. Many different writers, many producers, stuff like that, and end up in. That ended up in Denzel's hands.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Spike Lee]

And he called me up and said, I'm sending you a script.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And let me know if you want to do it. So when I hung up the phone, I knew I was doing it already.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because of Denzel.

[Spike Lee]

Because of Denzel.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

You know, his magnificence.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And also, though, the relationship we've had with the four films.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Mo Better Blues.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

He Got game. No, no. Excuse me, mortals. Malcolm X, He Got game.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And I even know that inside man, the last.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Was 18, 19 years ago.

[Marc Maron]

Is that crazy?

[Spike Lee]

Time for time waits for no one.

[Marc Maron]

That's for sure. I. I usually notice, like, I don't feel like time flies by, but I do know all of a sudden, you're old.

[Spike Lee]

For me, sir, it's flying by. Is it flying by? Flying by.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

But.

[Marc Maron]

But was. Did you have a. A love for Kurosawa to begin with?

[Spike Lee]

Oh, yes. I went to NYU graduate school and Ang Lee was my classmate. The great top. Ernest Dickerson.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Jim Jarmer was ahead of us for two years.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

So. And while you graduate film school, I get introduced to world cinema.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And the basis of my first machine have. It comes from Rashamon.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Spike Lee]

So I got to meet the great Kurosawa, Akira Kurosawa. So he's one of the greatest directors ever. So it did not take me a millisecond.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

You know, to say this, that this is something Denzel and I should do. But we. Here's our approach. We took the approach of great jazz musicians who take us American Standard.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Spike Lee]

You know, we were Coltrane. And not necessarily, you know, Julie. No disrespect to Ms. Julie Andrews. Sure. Or. Or Roger Hammenstein, but, you know, we. We. You know, what Miles did with My Funny Valentine would go on great jazz musicians who sure flipped standards. And that was our Approach. We were. Jazz musician is in front of. Behind the camera.

[Marc Maron]

So that was the thought that, you know, here's the story that way is.

[Spike Lee]

Not going to be a remake. It's going to be a reinterpretation.

[Marc Maron]

Right, But. But there's the. The story's solid, so, you know, you got the.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, but the story. Excuse me. The story was by novelist Ed McBain, who wrote it first, then Kurosawa adapted it.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Okay.

[Spike Lee]

It was called King's Ransom.

[Marc Maron]

Ed McBain, was it a movie or a novel?

[Spike Lee]

It was a novel.

[Marc Maron]

What Kurosawa adapted what was interesting in that, you know, you and Denzel dynamic duo. Yes. That, you know, you're of an age. Right.

[Spike Lee]

So you saying we're old.

[Marc Maron]

No, I'm not. I'm just a little younger. I'm just a little younger.

[Spike Lee]

Look, I'm just messing with you.

[Marc Maron]

No, it's okay.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, yeah, it's all good.

[Marc Maron]

But, but the. In terms of seeing yourself in a film, emotionally, it seems like this one, in the way you guys interpreted it, was. Was close.

[Spike Lee]

I'm not gonna refute that, sir.

[Marc Maron]

And in terms of taking in.

[Spike Lee]

I was born 1957, I was born 63. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But the idea of the integrity of the elder's taste.

[Spike Lee]

Are you talking about the generational r.

[Marc Maron]

Trying to put it diplomatically.

[Spike Lee]

Well, you were very diplomatic, but it still hurts.

[Marc Maron]

Hey, look, I'm in the same boat because, you know, in the Kurosawa movie, there's a guy, he runs a shoe factory.

[Spike Lee]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And for. For it to be placed in the world of music and then to have an intergenerational thing and then also deal with the.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

The.

[Marc Maron]

The sort of class issue within the friendship of. Of him and Jeffrey Wright's character, the great Jeffrey Wright.

[Spike Lee]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Unbelievable.

[Spike Lee]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

But I just saw the sort of moral weight, and there was a couple moments in the movie that, to me, like, struck me in such a way that. And they were passing moments like when he touches his kid's ear in the car. In the car. Oh, he's mad. He's mad.

[Spike Lee]

Oh, he's mad. He's mad.

[Marc Maron]

You know, and then in the office later with his partner basically saying, no one's got your back in this business. They seem to be the sort of. Like, those are the two sides of the heart challenge.

[Spike Lee]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And they're just in passing moments. Now, when you have moments like that, do you feel the weight of them?

[Spike Lee]

I think it's accumulation of those moments during the course of the film. And for me, this film is the weight of the Film is about morals. Morals of what you will. Denzel is such an exquisite actor. The audience put themselves. What he's going through.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And then that means that they're buying into the film.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yes.

[Spike Lee]

Which you want as a director.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And amazing thing they ask themselves, what would they do in their own lives, but what's happening on the screen in front of them.

[Marc Maron]

That's right.

[Spike Lee]

The Great Disney World.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And the moment where. Because in the. In an arc like this, you know that character's gotta change. And in that third act, it's like, this is the change and this is who this guy is. And this was inside of him, deep down inside. That's right.

[Spike Lee]

But he's been like. He's been worn down, though.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

You know, any business can beat you down. Especially with the music industry today where it is, where the labels are dropping people on the staff and they're dropping groups.

[Marc Maron]

Offices are empty.

[Spike Lee]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

All over New York and every. In any business.

[Spike Lee]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

It's kind of crazy, man.

[Spike Lee]

Bananas.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, I went to Hearst to do some press for a special. I got up and I was like, where's everybody? Just empty computers.

[Spike Lee]

But here's the thing, though.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

A lot has to do with the COVID Where.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You gotta get people off the screens and back in.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah. But they this. I'm sorry. If I was running business. Your ass is only coming three days a week. Hell, no.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

No, no.

[Marc Maron]

I think some people are going back.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah. But the boss has got to tell people to come back because, you know, you can only fake it so much when you sit in your desk, but when you go home, you don't know what they're doing.

[Marc Maron]

No.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It's. It's not a real conversation. If one person could be sitting there going, I'm not wearing pants.

[Spike Lee]

Or less.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, exactly.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. If the camera's not on. But like, in terms of how the thing opened, I noticed that in the original movie and I think throughout most of your work that, you know. Let me shut this air off. One of the primary. I run a professional operation. One of the primary.

[Spike Lee]

One man show.

[Marc Maron]

That's it. One of the primary characters is New York City, right?

[Spike Lee]

Yes, sir.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, the way you shot it in. This thing is different.

[Spike Lee]

Is it different how?

[Marc Maron]

Well, it's a different city and, you know, the. The locale is different. The. The. What it implies about the characters and the distance between him and Brooklyn and the.

[Spike Lee]

But he lives in Brooklyn.

[Marc Maron]

That building is right over the river.

[Spike Lee]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Which in those buildings weren't there? This is a new New York. Right.

[Spike Lee]

A new Brooklyn.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And in terms of your relationship with that, because the arc of it from. From the beginning in movies and then through, you know, the. The 25th hour, which was a. You know, the. The New York at its lowest emotionally.

[Spike Lee]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And in. Do the Right Thing, I. It was probably New York at its most chaotic. And now you have this. This strange new stability that's a little. A little sterile.

[Spike Lee]

No, no, it's not sterile. There are many different. First of all, it's not even a borough. It's the neighborhoods.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

It's neighbors that make up the boroughs, and the boroughs make up the city.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

So there's the waterfront. Brooklyn has been brought up. You know, Dumbo is huge now, so. And then the symbolism I wanted to show right away, without a whole dialogue, you see this drone shot that goes up to him on the terrace.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And right away, you know, he has money. You go in his house, you see the artwork.

[Marc Maron]

And so that's big money.

[Spike Lee]

Big money. I mean, Basquiat and, you know, they have money.

[Marc Maron]

Michael Ray Charles.

[Spike Lee]

Yes, Michael Ray Charles. Cayenne Day. So it's this. Yeah, this is Avedon. So they got money.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Serious money. And that all establishes that right away. The height, the art, the way he's on the. On the deck.

[Spike Lee]

Important phone call from my brother. From the. Giddy up. Yeah, from the jump. Yeah, right away.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So that. That does everything in 30 seconds.

[Spike Lee]

Yes. That's all you need.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know there's a problem.

[Spike Lee]

Well, you know, it's coming. You know, it's coming down the bike.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, but this can't be too. Too good.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but how do you feel about, like, you know, when. In the scenes where. And I like this, there's something you do sometimes where, you know, a future is pictured but is not happening. You know, like you did with the music video in this one. Right. And in the 25th hour, you did it with a life that was not had. And it. There's.

[Spike Lee]

There's done that a couple of times, huh?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, it's an interesting sort of device because it doesn't. It doesn't take you out of the reality of it, but it definitely, you know, digs deep into the character's head.

[Spike Lee]

What could have been.

[Marc Maron]

Exactly.

[Spike Lee]

What could have been.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I just, you know, I read something interesting today about the analogy between Edward Norton's character in 25th Hour, what could have been, and. And what could have been for New York hadn't that.

[Spike Lee]

Send that to me, please.

[Marc Maron]

You haven't seen that?

[Spike Lee]

No.

[Marc Maron]

You say it's a Rolling Stone piece from a few years back.

[Spike Lee]

No. Send it to me, please.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it was. It was quite an amazing piece because it discusses that no one was willing to take the risk or had this sort of acute perception to capture New York in that moment. They were erasing towers out of movies.

[Spike Lee]

Oh, that was horrible. But we weren't doing that stuff.

[Marc Maron]

No. And I was there. I was on my roof in Queens that morning. It was the fucking worst. But the trauma of it, it kind of rippled out for. It's still there.

[Spike Lee]

Still there. That's your. You're telling the truth.

[Marc Maron]

Has your relationship with New York changed in any way? You just feel it's the same place.

[Spike Lee]

New York is ever evolving.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And that's my home. You know, and New Yorkers go with the flow.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But it is sort of the creative resource. Right?

[Spike Lee]

Well, not like it used to be, because before Madonna, all these people came from other places and they get. Find rent someplace.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Right.

[Spike Lee]

You can't do that no more. Not in New York City.

[Marc Maron]

That's right.

[Spike Lee]

I mean, not. Not even the. The auto. The autoboros.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

But rent is crazy.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So it doesn't have that.

[Spike Lee]

So it's not going to encourage young people. Can't afford. I'm going to make it absolute. But a lot of young people can't afford. David Burns is not, you know, he.

[Marc Maron]

Can'T live on the Lower east side anymore.

[Spike Lee]

No, no, no, no.

[Marc Maron]

I lived on second between A and B in, you know, 89.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You're just sort of like, I don't. I don't need heroin. I appreciate it.

[Spike Lee]

But you're right in the middle of it right there, though.

[Marc Maron]

It was crazy, man.

[Spike Lee]

But it was. It was artful. I mean, a lot of artists were.

[Marc Maron]

Right there, all down there.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Where'd you come up? When. You mean when you were at nyu? Well, your dad was a musician.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah. So. But I mean, I grew up. We were the first black family moving to Cobble Hill. Brooklyn was a stone Italian American then. My parents bought out Brownstone in Fort Greene, Brooklyn, for like $50,000, right across the street from Fort Greene Park. And I still, you know, that's my home. That's my home.

[Marc Maron]

And do you still like. Because the art is such a powerful thing. It's an important piece. I don't think I've seen it sort of showcase as much in the movies of yours since Bamboozled. That, you know, seemed to be Almost based on a Michael Ray Charles painting, right?

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, that was Michael Ray Charles. Got a lot of his work too, when the getting was good.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Is it big now?

[Spike Lee]

Oh, he's, he's. You need. You need to write several zeros to get by his work today. And it's worth it too.

[Marc Maron]

Oh yeah, it's great. But when you were a kid in the house of a musician, so your whole early life, the premium was put on creativity.

[Spike Lee]

Yes. But here's the thing. My father, Billy, the great jazz bassist. Folk bassist.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

At one time he was the. The go to guy. Bob Dylan. He's on the first Gordon Life with album on the first Garfield Simon.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And then when Bob went electric, everybody went electric. And my father refused to play electric bass.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

My mother had to go to work. We do a star. Because he was not playing electric bass.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Fused to.

[Marc Maron]

And there wasn't enough stand up bass gigs around.

[Spike Lee]

Everybody went electric.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Even the jazz guys.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

But when Bob went electric, everybody.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And the people, you know, that he was making his money from.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

My mother used to every weekend Lord and Taylors and Bloomingdale's. She was living in there.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

My father quit. Not quit, but if you played jazz and bass. My mother had to start to work to support the family. We all starved. All that stuff is in the film Crooklyn, that autobiography.

[Marc Maron]

I love that thing.

[Spike Lee]

Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

It's weird. The ones I talk about the most are bamboozled in Crooklyn.

[Spike Lee]

But to be honest though.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

More strange have come up to me on the streets all over the world and said Crooklyn's their favorite film. More than do the Right Thing, more than Malcolm X.

[Marc Maron]

Now in terms of that, like with Crooklyn, in terms of. Was Dickerson on that?

[Spike Lee]

No, Ernest. That was the first film that Ernest didn't shoot for me.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

By then he got on directing himself.

[Marc Maron]

Because the color palette on that thing is like 50% of the movie.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And the thought you put into that and the depth of thinking that goes into creating a color palette and shooting it. There's an intention there, right?

[Spike Lee]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And in that movie it was probably the intention of how bright you saw your childhood to be.

[Spike Lee]

And also the islands of wonder thing when the character Troy went down south. We have the anti morphic. You know, we use anamorphic lens for that stuff. Shot down south.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

People were banging on the projection. Boof.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Spike Lee]

It's out of focus. Out of focus. Out of focus.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

People were bugging when we did that.

[Marc Maron]

But that gave you the effect you wanted?

[Spike Lee]

Yes. Yeah, 100%.

[Marc Maron]

And so when did your dad. Did he eventually start pick up playing again?

[Spike Lee]

He started doing my scores.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

The score for She's Gonna have It.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Spike Lee]

School days.

[Marc Maron]

Right, right, right.

[Spike Lee]

Great score for do the Right Thing.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, that's the best. Right?

[Spike Lee]

Mo Better blues. Yeah. At the moment of blues, the baton was passed to Terence Blanchard.

[Marc Maron]

And to work with your father in that way creatively, I can't even imagine how amazing that must have been.

[Spike Lee]

It was love. He was very proud of me and he gave me what I needed for those films. But he also did the score for my films in my graduate films at nyu.

[Marc Maron]

And what was it when you were in nyu because you got, what, four brothers and sisters?

[Spike Lee]

Three brothers, one sister.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

I'm the oldest.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

What was it at nyu? I mean, it's just the gift of growing up in a household that encouraged creativity. I mean, that's irreplaceable.

[Spike Lee]

Well, parents have a great influence on their children. Good and bad.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And so not only did they get my love of music. My ears. From my father. My love of sports came from my father too.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

I mean, I think it's different today, but back then, I mean, whatever your father's team was, that was your team. Maybe not so today. Yeah, but back then.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

No choice.

[Spike Lee]

No choice. And if the kid didn't like the father's team, the father wasn't around or divorced or something like that.

[Marc Maron]

It was done out of spite.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Now.

[Spike Lee]

Now is crazy. Crazy. I see young kids with their fathers. I know they're New Yorkers and sick. Got a Red Sox hat on. I mean, daddy, what are you doing? Where you been?

[Marc Maron]

Where'd you drop the ball? Yeah, but also, like, you know, by example, you know, you learn from your parents what to do, what not to do.

[Spike Lee]

You got the other side, too.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

It's not just one sided.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I guess you sort of like seeing that up close and seeing the world of musicians. That's a cautionary tale.

[Spike Lee]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And I won't be telling that tale.

[Marc Maron]

That didn't make it in.

[Spike Lee]

Yes. My father at the later years had some, you know, drug issues.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

So.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. And that was just part of it, you know.

[Spike Lee]

Jabs. This is back then. Oh, my God. I mean, it's kind of.

[Marc Maron]

It's kind of crazy when you think about it, where.

[Spike Lee]

And it wasn't just jazz musician musicians in general.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

And then. And then the streets took it up, you know, but. But it isn't I've had the conversation where you, like, would. Would say, you know, not Coltrane, Bird.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Would have gotten there without it.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah. Well, they came. I mean, even in with rock, you know this thing where, like, drugs make you play better, open you up, and.

[Marc Maron]

So you gotta know how to play first.

[Spike Lee]

That's what they didn't tell them.

[Marc Maron]

That's the trick.

[Spike Lee]

They just thought they do some dope and that's it. And then they end up be a great musician. But it don't. It don't work like that.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it'll work like that.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's the difference between. Between a junkie and a pro.

[Spike Lee]

Sad but true. You know, so. No, it's just everybody's individuals and they. They go their own ways and.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Routes for.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Who knows what. Not all the time. Not all the times end up good.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. Well, I mean, I. I think that, you know, that, you know, that's in this movie.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, there's a scene there in the. In the studio where that was. That was a great scene.

[Spike Lee]

Thank you. And let me tell you this, my brother. The scene is great because we didn't do what was written.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, you let him go.

[Spike Lee]

No, I. I didn't know Denzel's gonna start singing bars from Nas, Elmatic and Rocky. No. Either.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And so when you have great, great musicians or great actors, directors, whoever you call. We want to call them, they allow. You know, I'm not gonna tell Denzel, you can't improv here.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

I give an example. And. And he got game. That game can father the son. Denzel and Ray Allen in the script. Ray Allen as Jesus in the film. It's supposed to. And Denzel played JV for Fordham and PJ Charisma was his coach.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

So in his mind, he never joined. Denzel never said to me. But in his mind, he was not gonna lose 11 0. And he started throwing up some lucky shots. And Ray Allen was looking at me like, spike, this is not what the script is going. Instead of calling, you know, cut. He's. Yeah, he's giving me the technical sign saying, timeout, timeout. It was crazy, but it made the film better. The film would not have been good if Ray Allen would have won 11 zip.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

It made. Denzel has the instincts.

[Marc Maron]

He's a competitive dude.

[Spike Lee]

But it's just. It made the movie better too.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It's so funny. I once talked to Ethan Hawke about. About Training Day.

[Spike Lee]

Right, right.

[Marc Maron]

And he told I knew King Kong.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I never Forget what he said. He said, you know, when he got that role, he was watching Denzel movies like teams watch the opposing team's game tapes because he didn't want to be handed his ass.

[Spike Lee]

Here's the thing, though.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Ethan was right. Because you come with that weak shit, he's not gonna. It's not gonna be nice. It's not.

[Marc Maron]

And so that's why you've seen that happen.

[Spike Lee]

That's why what makes this film.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

So great is the duel of High Noon between both of those guys in the recording studio.

[Marc Maron]

And there was a moment there where you didn't know because of Denzel's character before he shifts.

[Spike Lee]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And finds his heart again. There's a point there where he might make the deal.

[Spike Lee]

Coulda, woulda, Right.

[Marc Maron]

And you gotta play that tension well.

[Spike Lee]

Denzel's a genius, and he knows how to do these things and just lift the whole film up.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So when you were doing the early stuff, what was driving you in terms of influence, you know, from nyu, I mean. Because you kind of got pretty quickly, got your own point of view.

[Spike Lee]

It wasn't that quickly. But I would say this, though. Is that going to. And when you graduate film school, where I'm now a tenured professor, film. And the artistic director, how's that going? I've been there 30 years. I love teaching. I love teaching. And I wouldn't be there 30 years if I didn't love it.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But in terms of the kids you're seeing, you know, and they're grown.

[Spike Lee]

I mean, they're grown. Many later, many have been. Have left other professionals with doctors.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Spike Lee]

Stuff like that. And they want to learn to want to, want to, want to be a filmmaker.

[Marc Maron]

But there is that moment, man, in, you know, in this new movie, where, you know, the new breed is laying down his pitch for what makes money. And you got to be up against that with. With younger people coming into movies. You know, what's the easy way? What if I do a clip to sell?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

I just. I'm really. I tell my students who I've been through, my experience, and I don't try to fake the funk or lie to them.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And the number one thing is you got to put the work in.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

You can't. If you think you're cheating. You think you're cheating the game, but you're cheating yourself.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Spike Lee]

So my thing is work ethic. Work ethic. Put, you know, work, work. And here's the thing, though.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

That when you love what you do, it's not work.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Spike Lee]

So if you're not working, it's not what you love. Right?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Uh huh.

[Marc Maron]

But you say it took time for you to find your vision, but when you're going into those first four movies, well, she's got to have it with that. Well, that was black and white, right?

[Spike Lee]

That was black and white.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then, you know, school days.

[Spike Lee]

Black and white. Because Jim Jahmers is strange and paradise is black and white.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

You got, you got to keep up.

[Spike Lee]

Jahmes was there while he was two years ahead of me.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And you loved it.

[Spike Lee]

The publicity. Everything that Jim did with Stranger Paradigm I did with She's a Habit because I knew it was successful. I knew that I'm gonna have to start as an independent filmmaker. And Jim, even today, when I see Jim, he says, don't say. It's like, don't say it. But he's my hero.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

I mean, Marty was not there and I was there. Oliver Stone was not there at nyu. So my contemporary was Jim Jarmusch.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And it's so funny because you are the opposite. You are the opposite of black and white. You did one black and white movie and then from then on, it's like all color all the time.

[Spike Lee]

Yep.

[Marc Maron]

Did you. You didn't like black and white?

[Spike Lee]

I've had black and white sequences in my film, but. And I love black and white films, but it's the story for me. The story tells you what you should do with it.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

So that's, that's how I roll.

[Marc Maron]

And outside of Jim Jarmusch, you know, what was informing your brain in terms of how you want to shoot?

[Spike Lee]

My other brother, my other NYU brother, Scorsese. Yeah, that's my guy, Pace. I mean, it's more than Pace. Just his whole, his world and how he sees things, how he shoots it, just the utmost. And here's another thing, is that when you're young, you know, there are people you love, but you never think that you're gonna get to become friends with them. So me, me and Mario, Tight De Niro. So these are giants.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Even I come very. I've become very good friends with Steven Spielberg over the years. He came, I showed. Sometimes I have guests in my class and we showed Close Encounters. The lights went up and then Spielberg walked in front of me, the front of the class. The class went berserk. It was surprised I didn't tell him that Spielberg was gonna be. And he was, he was just gracious enough to spend time with the class.

[Marc Maron]

It's a great Movie, though, isn't it? Close Encounter.

[Spike Lee]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You can't get out of your head. And then the color. And he's got true Truffaut there. I was reading into that because, you know, I remember studying, you know, film. I was reading into it. It's like Truffaut, Sight and Sound, basic.

[Spike Lee]

That's it. Great movie.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And he's made great films, will continue to make great films.

[Marc Maron]

So I imagine that the early Scorsese stuff in How New York was Mean Streets.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

How was it, how it was pictured? The sweat and the grit. Yeah, that, that had to like a.

[Spike Lee]

Lot of that was determined by the budget too. I mean, he didn't have a lot of money.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Spike Lee]

To, to do what?

[Marc Maron]

But he's not. He, but not unlike you, he's intrinsically a New York guy.

[Spike Lee]

New York guy.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

New York.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And Y A W, K. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Marc Maron]

And again, Giancarlo, like his career. Look at that.

[Spike Lee]

Esposito.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Oh, yeah, I see. Plug it out.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it's amazing.

[Spike Lee]

He was at the screening the other night we had here in la, and it was just a joy to, for us to give each other a big hug.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

When you watch these movies from, from back in the day, as, as who you are now, how do you know what I say?

[Spike Lee]

Oh, we were young.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Do you? Yeah, yeah.

[Spike Lee]

I mean, you just see how, I mean, when I see myself as Mookie and do the right thing. Mookie's kind of old right now, but.

[Marc Maron]

Is it cringy or is it good?

[Spike Lee]

It's good.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

It's. You think back to not only that film, but what you're doing at a time and what's happening in the world at that time.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And how these, all of us talented people came together on this film and gone on to have great careers.

[Marc Maron]

But are you self critical?

[Spike Lee]

What's done is done.

[Marc Maron]

You give yourself a break.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

What's done is done.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

You know, you gotta. I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing if I kept living in the past. You got on to the next one, on to the next one, onto the next one.

[Marc Maron]

I noticed in this movie, no moving.

[Spike Lee]

Yes, there are, there are two. Oh, the double dolly shots there. Twice. Look, check it out again. You'll see.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

It's even in the, the, the, the short film, the vid music video.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I guess I, I, I was always waiting for the, the moving.

[Spike Lee]

It was moving. Maybe it wasn't. I think it was A little subtle, but what. A little solo for you. But it was moving.

[Marc Maron]

But that's a music video. You know, he's waiting for the.

[Spike Lee]

You know, but that's the thing is that. That's in his mind, is going to happen.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. But what about that shot we.

[Spike Lee]

You.

[Marc Maron]

It's almost.

[Spike Lee]

I didn't invent it. I didn't.

[Marc Maron]

But it's almost a signature thing.

[Spike Lee]

It's become a signature thing over the years.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

The best use of, in my opinion.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Is it Malcolm X?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Because I, I did a lot of. A lot of interviews and more than one person said that they thought that Malcolm knew he was going to assassination. We went to speak at the Ottawa Ballroom that day.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And then you couple that with one of my favorite songs of all time, A Change is a Combo.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Spike Lee]

By Sam Cooke. I mean, that's, that's why that's my best use of the double dolly shot was that one. It's that one. Malcolm X. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because it was foreshadowing. Foreboding.

[Spike Lee]

Yes, that's the word.

[Marc Maron]

Haunted.

[Spike Lee]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And when you first started Malcolm X, that's another great example because that, you know, you had to direct that movie. And you know what I remember about it, outside of Denzel's performance and the story of Malcolm X was how much attention you paid to zoot suits.

[Spike Lee]

It was the era. And we want, again, want to make people understand this is the, the zoot suit.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But it looks so. It was so visceral.

[Spike Lee]

It was like a Hollywood musical.

[Marc Maron]

Exactly.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

But you knew that we wanted that. I mean, you see the different color palettes, you know, going with the great Ernest Dickerson and cinematographies.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

That take us through many, many different decades and the different phases of Malcolm X's life.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Because I, I know as a comic that Red Fox was there.

[Spike Lee]

Well, he. He knew.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

He's not in the film, but he knew.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, he knew him. Right. He worked at a restaurant or something.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, they. They knew each other.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

What's your history with. With comedy coming up as a kid? Because I know you did the. The Kings of Comedy and I know you.

[Spike Lee]

Ed Sullivan.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

It's funny because I'm the first of five. And so we had to vote for the tv.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

I wanted Knicks games and my siblings would vote for the Brady Bunch. And what's the other one?

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Parcher family.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, the Parcher family. I got voted. I was like, I want to watch the Knicks. Yeah, I'll get out Voted, even. That's in Crookland.

[Marc Maron]

That's in there.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

When does the appreciation for painting start.

[Spike Lee]

For art? I think I was able to have somebody to buy some.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And that was because it's interesting in this movie where, you know that it does have a status implication, but they are works of art.

[Spike Lee]

A lot of that art is from my home.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

So it's copies of it, but I have Basquiats and.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Not those ones, but, Yeah. A lot of the art is. Copies are made of that stuff and used in the film. And again, it's a shortcut to show how fluid they have, also their taste.

[Marc Maron]

But it did. Does it impact your point of view in terms of creativity? I mean, like, when you see a painter, you know, do that thing, or a jazz musician do that thing.

[Spike Lee]

No, it just shows that there's art on the walls, too. There's art on the wall.

[Marc Maron]

Right. But for you as an artist, are you able to appreciate painting in that way, or you just see it?

[Spike Lee]

Oh, yeah. I mean, paintings, photographs.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

You know, I got several at one of my best pieces, a portrait of. Of Malcolm X that Richard Avedon signed to me.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Oh, yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Love that photograph. Yeah. Photograph, portrait.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's great.

[Spike Lee]

I have a Basquiat that's about Satchel Paige. He spelled Paige wrong, but Satchel is my daughter's first name.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Spike Lee]

That's special.

[Marc Maron]

Did you know Basquiat?

[Spike Lee]

My brother knew him better. They went to art and design high school.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

I went to. The only time I met him, he came to the after party for. For the. That she's gonna have a premiere.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

He came with Andy Warhol.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And there's. There's a picture of us all together.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

With Fab 5 Freddy.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Basquiat. It got away from him, too.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

It's sad.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But he tapped into something.

[Spike Lee]

Yes, he did. And he's. He's gonna live forever as long as his art is around.

[Marc Maron]

And. And what about how well did you get to know Melvin Van Peebles?

[Spike Lee]

He's one of the giants as far as black filmmakers. And what he did was sweet, sweet sweetback. So then I got to know him. And also we had a block party the day before we could shoot start do the Right Thing. Do the Right Thing was shot on one block.

[Marc Maron]

That's almost like a set.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah. And the block has been studio set. The block has been renamed do the Right Thing Away by New York City. The only film.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Don't let Trump take that away.

[Spike Lee]

He might drive and find out about it. So he came to the kickoff party, he gave us a blessing. So I was very honored for that to happen. I mean, he showed what he didn't need. The studio. He did his thing and against the system, against the studio, made a hit and a declaration really, for, for black.

[Marc Maron]

Independent filmmaking now in terms of the kind of the, the confrontation and do the right thing. And then, you know, in, in terms of dealing with race in, you know, Jungle Fever, in all the movies was, was something, you know, you could feel as a visceral confrontation. And then for me, the reason I get hung up on Bamboozled, you know, as a comic and as I thought that, and I talk about it a lot, that the way you brought television production values to Minstrelsy was some sort of. It was something I never thought I'd see and I can't unsee.

[Spike Lee]

But.

[Marc Maron]

But the elevation of it delivered the message in a way that was so powerful but poetic that it seems to me that you put a lot of effort into making sure if anything in that movie was going to be right, it was going to be that fucking.

[Spike Lee]

TV show, Mantan's Minstrel Show. And I appreciate, you, appreciate your statement about that. But for me, for me, yeah, the real. The film is about that last two minute montage of images of black. Famous. Famous.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yes.

[Spike Lee]

Judy Garland, I mean, everybody doing blackface, doing, you know, blackface history.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yes.

[Spike Lee]

And the cartoons. And that's what the film's about.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Spike Lee]

And how. Well, what was the last words Brando said in Apocalypse Now?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

The horror.

[Spike Lee]

Right, the horror.

[Marc Maron]

But when you guys were making that.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, we knew what we were doing. And here's the thing, though. There are things in that film that are just painful. And I knew they were painful. That's why it was hard to get the film made.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

But as myself, as an artist, I'm not just gonna close my eyes and not acknowledge, you know, how this hateful stuff has gone out and definitely affected the world. So that was, that was really the, you know, how we flipped it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But it, but because of the production values, you're almost defying a certain part of the audience to like it.

[Spike Lee]

Well, we, we had, we didn't have a lot of money, so we shot that film on, on many DVDs.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, that was the first one.

[Spike Lee]

I.

[Marc Maron]

It was, it got a lot of press for being shot on digital.

[Spike Lee]

Yes. And it was a budgetary budget. Budgetary.

[Marc Maron]

But it was perfect for the TV show.

[Spike Lee]

It worked. It worked for the TV show.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And Damon Wayans and what he was.

[Marc Maron]

He was the best kind of worm.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, he, he didn't, I, I've been told he didn't like the film, you know, when it came out, but he just, over the years he's come to, to appreciate it.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Spike Lee]

He probably got a lot of flack. Like why you do that film? Why you do that role? I never asked him about it, but I think that, that, that I know that film, you know, had made a statement about the, the industry.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, totally.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That, I mean, I can't like, it just blows me away.

[Spike Lee]

What's the name of the Lamel Brooks?

[Marc Maron]

Blazing Saddles.

[Spike Lee]

No, the other one. Who's in the one where it's a play and it flips and.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, the producers.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah. That's where the premise of that really comes from. The Producers, where, you know, the intention is to make it a bomb and then it's the total opposite.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. Oh, so that's where that came from. Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

That thinking that let's do something horrible and then on purpose it becomes a hit.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

What's the difference, you know, between like all the movies you do? Like there's a different set of muscles when you, when you're doing docs. I, I imagine a, A, A, A different intention that you can cover what you can cover in a movie. But you know, some things are need to be handled journalistically and what, what drives you to do the docs.

[Spike Lee]

It's a different like, I think it's a different muscle.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

But for me it's still under the heading of filmmaking.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Spike Lee]

So I never want to limit myself. You know, don't put handcuffs on myself, but in my hands behind my back. You know, there's many ways to tell a story. Many different ways tell a story.

[Marc Maron]

And how does something like, you know, four little girls come together?

[Spike Lee]

I was hoping you would ask that. Four Little Girls, I think is to my best filmmaking ever.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

For those don't know at home, Four Little Girls refers to the four beautiful young black girls who were birded when sticks of binding sticks of dynamite were placed on the 16th Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama. Then the height of the civil rights movement.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

So let me tell you the story. We wanted to be nominated the best feature documentary.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And so in order to do that you have to have a one week or one week of theatrical run.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

In New York there's a film forum.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And so we're beginning to begin that one week run and I get a call from the FBI. They want to see a Print of the film. Really? Now, J. Edgar Hoover knew whose guys were.

[Marc Maron]

He was still alive then who?

[Spike Lee]

J. Ok. Hoover. No, I think he died, but it's just still FBI. Still.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

He was alive when a bomb went off. They knew within the week who it was. The guy's nickname was Dynamite Bob.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

So before the film's about to open, I get a call from the FBI and they want to see a print.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

I sent the print and a couple of days later they opened up the case and indicted two of the other murderers that were still running around.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Huh.

[Marc Maron]

And was there any party that thought that they were just trying to get ahead of it?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

They.

[Spike Lee]

They probably felt they never get. They didn't get. The bomb went off. The bomb went off in 1963. I mean, when in.

[Marc Maron]

But they knew you were going to bring it back to the attention.

[Spike Lee]

Oh, the film was the FBI. The FBI or the.

[Marc Maron]

No, the murderers.

[Spike Lee]

The FBI they knew about. They had to know about it because they wanted a print.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, that's what I mean, that. That they were. You know. We better resolve this, you know, synchronistically with the release.

[Spike Lee]

Yes. With the release of the film. But they were, you know, Jacob Hoover is not a friend of Dr. King or the civil rights.

[Marc Maron]

Of course not.

[Spike Lee]

So.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

That's one of my proudest moments. That film sends some people back to jail, the prison after many, many years they were around free.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That is an amazing feat of. Of successful social activism.

[Spike Lee]

Yes. And I got to know the parents very well. A lot of them are no longer with us.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

But the pain of knowing a young daughter.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Is. I'll tell you another thing about this.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

I have a great researcher name is Judy Ailey.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And during the post production she found pictures of the girls. And I had a long discussion with myself should these pictures, these grotesque pictures be put in the film. And I put them in. I just felt that the world needed to see what these ticks are buying. What these sticks of diamond did to these beautiful young girls who could grow up to be doctors, lawyers, just regular. Just been allowed to live and were killed and nothing but hate. I had to think, because I'm thinking about what are the parents going to say when I see this, when they see their children blown up.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yep.

[Marc Maron]

They'd never seen those pictures.

[Spike Lee]

Never. They must be hidden somewhere because Judy, she's great. She found them.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And so we got nominated for best feature documentary. I flew all the family out to la. We did not win. But the mother said that it was worth just Coming out. Because they got a kiss from Denzel Washington. Because we went to. He owned. He called a restaurant at that time. And so we just went there after the Academy Award and Denzel gave him a hug.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

A kiss on the cheek. And they were so happy.

[Marc Maron]

And how did they feel about the movie? I loved it because, like, even hearing you talk about the process of doing documentary.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It is a form of filmmaking, but it is essentially journalism. It's a different responsibility.

[Spike Lee]

Yes. And another big one was about right now, we're going with the 20th anniversary, you know, so my documentary I did about what happened was that. Excuse me, what's happening in New Orleans.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

When the levees break.

[Spike Lee]

When the levies break.

[Marc Maron]

Broke.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And do you have the same that there. There's a deeper sense of satisfaction and engagement with unresolved.

[Spike Lee]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Things within the community, within the history.

[Spike Lee]

Of the United States. Sure. You know, and. And I found that I become very close with. When I do documentaries. We stay friends, you know, it's not like I just. All right, we got the film. See you later. But, yeah, I become very, very close friends with the parents of the Forlo girls who were murdered.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And September 1963, Birmingham, Birmingham, Alabama.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And the same with the Levy. Yes.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

People.

[Spike Lee]

I go to New Orleans. Yeah. Those are my people. So.

[Marc Maron]

Because it's interesting. It's not something you. It's a different experience in, you know, portraying, you know, Malcolm.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, and the impact of that.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah. This is. This is. There's a big difference. But here's the thing, though. What makes it the same for me is that is storytelling.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Spike Lee]

Whereas the storytelling.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then both.

[Spike Lee]

Both are storytelling to me.

[Marc Maron]

And what about the four parter? That must have been a mountain to climb. The New York City epicenters.

[Spike Lee]

Oh, yeah. Med dealt with nine, 11 also.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Coupled with COVID Yeah. And another one of the joints I just look at like that, you know.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Move on to the next. But the. The stuff I've done in the past still stands, so. Well, I keep it going.

[Marc Maron]

But it must have been for you personally, there's a. There's a learning experience.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah. When I learn every time I do something.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But like when you're doing a script and you're making choices about, you know, how to shoot a scene, and then on the other hand, you're like, well, look at what I found about this.

[Spike Lee]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Then that deepens your wisdom, your understanding of things, how.

[Spike Lee]

You know that.

[Marc Maron]

Of course.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. Yes. And one you know, and one impacts, I think documentary filmmaking impacts my, my fictional stuff. It helps each other.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

For me as a storyteller.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Well, I mean, all of it though, you know, it was interesting about the newest movie is the attention to detail. Like, you know, you've got a plot point. They're going to drop this bag into the Puerto Rican Day parade and you're going to spend five minutes with the Puerto Ricans. We're going to get Anthony Ramos out there.

[Spike Lee]

Rosie.

[Marc Maron]

Rosie Perez.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

But also they. Who they introduced the great Eddie Palmeri.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, that's great.

[Spike Lee]

Who just passed.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, he did.

[Spike Lee]

Passed away.

[Marc Maron]

But. But see that, like that introduces that whole story. Like this is New York.

[Spike Lee]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

That. That and the train from the Yankees.

[Spike Lee]

Game that they're going to Yankees and they're playing the Red Sox.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but just. And you got the reason why I did that.

[Spike Lee]

I wanted to show that young felon is intelligent. He put this all together.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, no, I know. Like, that was. That was a good mislead.

[Spike Lee]

You know, he had. He had to. It wasn't an accident. He's new at the Red Sox or. Yeah. Staying or accident. This Sunday is a pork a day parade.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yep, yep.

[Marc Maron]

And then it's like, boom, back and forth. Who's that guy that, you know, that you use? I think you've used him before, but the, you know the guy who's now on the insurance company commercials, you know, the tough guy.

[Spike Lee]

Oh, yeah, yeah. State Farm.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

What's that guy's name?

[Spike Lee]

Dean.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, Dean.

[Marc Maron]

He always delivers. He delivers, that guy.

[Spike Lee]

And we play with him, you know, being in the commercial too. So you did, you know the word just mayhem.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah. Mayhem.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

He got a pretty good racket.

[Spike Lee]

Dean Winter. Dean Winter. Dean Winter is his name.

[Marc Maron]

He got a good racket going for himself. And when he finally won the Oscar for blackkklansman, was there a part of you that's sort of like about time?

[Spike Lee]

The Oscar thing is. I mean, here's the thing.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Believe me, I've never won anything.

[Spike Lee]

Do the right thing.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Wasn't even nominated for an Oscar. And drive Mr. Days. He won.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Black Clamps lost out to name in that film.

[Marc Maron]

What, for the best Picture?

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, best. I don't know. Someone's being driven in that film too.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Spike Lee]

But I not let that deter me from what I'm doing.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

I understand that actors don't necessarily mean that's the best. Sure thing. So just keep it moving. I mean, I'm mad for A day, you know, then just. Just keep it moving.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

On to the next. Keep it going.

[Marc Maron]

How do you choose the movies if they aren't yours? I mean, like, when you get like. Well, Denzel brought you this script. What makes you want to do something?

[Spike Lee]

Number one chance. Work with Denzel Washington. I mean, Inside man was a long time ago. Sure. And in addition, that was. It was. Takes place in New York City.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

You know, this is my home. I knew I had to do.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Spike Lee]

It was not any. I have the need. I knew I had to do.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spike Lee]

The show, the New York I love business.

[Marc Maron]

Well. Well, here's sort of a. A couple of outside questions. Is that, you know, when you shot David Byrne show. That's a guy with a vision.

[Spike Lee]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Of his own. So what are the discussions and how did that happen when you did American Utopia?

[Spike Lee]

We become friends over the years, I guess, as Spike. I want you to come to the show.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And if you like it, you know, I want you to direct it.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And me.

[Spike Lee]

And. Me and David are cool like that.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And also, like, I. I think that there is a. A sense somewhere in your brain that you understand a musical and there's.

[Spike Lee]

Oh, yeah, from them genes, my father's genes. I mean, music is part of my. Who I am.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

So my fiber. So. And I. I think that David has seen that through my film. So if he. If he doesn't think I. I know music or can shoot music.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

He's not gonna ask me to do that.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And I. I mean, he came to me.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, he did.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

He's. I've talked to him too. He's an interesting guy.

[Spike Lee]

Great guy. Great guy.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Good.

[Marc Maron]

That band holds up, dude.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And. And also, like, the two comedy things, because I'm a comic, the original Kings of Comedy, which is great.

[Spike Lee]

Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

I remember I was at the. What year was that? I was at the comedy festival in Aspen, Colorado, probably in the mid-90s. And they had flown Bernie out there, and it's the middle of the snow, Bernie, and there's only white people in Aspen. And it was one of the best things I ever fucking saw in my life.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because, you know, he's bringing a world just by nature of who he is, you know, and same with the dude who did, you know, BB's kids, right.

[Spike Lee]

Robin.

[Marc Maron]

Right?

[Spike Lee]

Robin Harris.

[Marc Maron]

The best.

[Spike Lee]

Right, right.

[Marc Maron]

And you used him in which movie Do. Was it? Do the Right Thing in the second movie.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Do the Right Thing. Is that Rob Howard's first film.

[Marc Maron]

It's just that there's a raw world that has not been made, you know, in any way. Sort of like something that not white people can necessarily understand. And to see it in Aspen, Colorado.

[Spike Lee]

They dug it though, right?

[Marc Maron]

Well, they. When they got past the fear.

[Spike Lee]

How to get past that first. Right.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Sometimes it's hard, you know.

[Spike Lee]

I understand.

[Marc Maron]

But when you shot that, was that in DL at that time too, Like DL Young. DL was intense, solid.

[Spike Lee]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

But was that just.

[Spike Lee]

We shot two shows.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's all you need.

[Spike Lee]

North Carolina.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And we. We become a classic.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And what. What brought you around to. Because I know you shot Gerard Carmichael when he was barely ready. How'd that happen?

[Spike Lee]

He asked me.

[Marc Maron]

Oh.

[Spike Lee]

In fact, I don't really know who he was. When he asked me, I saw a couple of shows, I said, come on.

[Marc Maron]

Let'S go and just knock it out in a day or two.

[Spike Lee]

That was one. That was one night, two performances.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

But the classic for me is Richard Pryor and Eddie Murphy. You know, those. Those things, dude.

[Marc Maron]

You know, to see that, you know, Richard, I saw him towards the end. I was a doorman at the Comedy Store. I did not know know him, but I remember him.

[Spike Lee]

You've seen people coming through there, though. I know you have.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

When I was. Yeah, sure. But when he. When I first got that job in the late 80s as a Dora, man, he started coming back around again. And he'd been out for a while.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, a little.

[Marc Maron]

And the vulnerability of that guy was. Was genuine. Like, you know, I saw him go up on stage in the little room over there and. And not do well. And he couldn't, you know, he couldn't hold the audience. And it was so painful and so amazing that to me, as a comic who's taking that in, that you're going to show up with that kind of vulnerability and take what comes. Is pretty heavy.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah. Let me ask this. What. What is what? Comedians are crazy.

[Marc Maron]

Would you say that some of them.

[Spike Lee]

Copy included?

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

I mean, to get up. To get up there on the stage.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

You're naked.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

You're butt naked.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yep.

[Spike Lee]

And just.

[Marc Maron]

Well, you know.

[Spike Lee]

Rough business, huh?

[Marc Maron]

Well, well, you know, you learn how to, you know, you get a suit of armor that enables you to put that.

[Spike Lee]

The armor is the clothes.

[Marc Maron]

Sure, yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Cover your naked body.

[Marc Maron]

That's right.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It becomes part of your personality. But. But like again, when you. When once you've been doing it, once the real fear goes away, which I imagine you experience as an artist that, you know, for so, so much of your career early on, you've got to pretend that you're not afraid.

[Spike Lee]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And. And that.

[Spike Lee]

Repeat that, please, for our audience.

[Marc Maron]

Pretend that you're not afraid. And. And then, you know, live in that until the fear goes away. And that day, when that day comes, that's pretty freeing. But you feel it, right?

[Spike Lee]

Yeah. So let me ask this question.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

What happens? I'm not talking about you.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

One of comedian moms.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, you know.

[Spike Lee]

Not from your experience. I know you never bombed in your life.

[Marc Maron]

No, no, no, no. You do. I'm sure you do. I bombed a lot because I'm an angry. So, like, what are you angry about? You know, just that I'm here where.

[Spike Lee]

You want to be.

[Marc Maron]

Not sure. And that's a tough predicament.

[Spike Lee]

Well, there's not a place you definitely don't want to be.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. I think it's here. You know, that you're here.

[Spike Lee]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

But bombing on some level, it took me a long time to learn. It is, you know, it's. It's part of the job, you know, so you watch. If you watch rock, you go up to workout shit, right? He's not going to put any damn. He's not going to put any spin on it. He's not going to run around. He's not going to do the rock thing, you know, where he's repeating and he's pacing. He'll just go up with the jokes that he wrote, present them with almost maybe at 25% personality just to see if the jokes work. And it doesn't. It's not that it goes badly, but he knows that he's not going to kill, and that takes courage. So the bombing thing, I think you get to a certain point where you're not gonna totally eat shit, but you just start to know where the level is. Like, well, they're not coming with me for the whole.

[Spike Lee]

Say that again. Eat shit.

[Marc Maron]

They're not gonna totally eat shit. But I'll tell you what you do feel, at least I do, is when it's not getting to where you. When you know, you're not hitting. And every joke is a different mountain. I get that it's a little bit of sweat on the back of my neck. That's how my inner self knows that it's going down.

[Spike Lee]

I've had that sweat the back of my neck. And it wasn't about telling jokes either.

[Marc Maron]

What was it about?

[Spike Lee]

Well, we've all had some uncomfortable, uncomfortable things in Our life. It's not a good feeling.

[Marc Maron]

No. But you. But if you got your chops, you got to stay in the fucking saddle.

[Spike Lee]

Yes, you're right.

[Marc Maron]

And hopefully the sweat doesn't start coming down your forehead.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah. And could make you better.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, It'll get you tough.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, tough business, though.

[Spike Lee]

Comedians. All right. Tough business.

[Marc Maron]

Sure it is. And I've been doing a whole. Most of my life.

[Spike Lee]

How did it start?

[Marc Maron]

To limited success at times. How to start.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Much like anything else, you know. Where'd you go? I grew up in. My folks are from Jersey. We grew up. I grew up in New Mexico.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, but what. What exit? New Jersey.

[Marc Maron]

I know.

[Spike Lee]

Anytime I saw some New Jersey, I was my first.

[Marc Maron]

I got out.

[Spike Lee]

Nothing about New Jersey.

[Marc Maron]

I don't either. I got out too young, but I was driven because I felt that comedians, you know, for me, it was not to be an entertainer. I felt like they had a handle on presenting truth in a way that will make you see things different.

[Spike Lee]

Lenny Bruce, Richard Pryor.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. Well, just. But just the idea that they could compartmentalize the most horrible things about life and the most frightening things about life into a package where you could sort of handle it. And I thought that was a noble undertaking. That's my. That's my take on it. I saw. I saw some guy at the. It was so funny. I just. I saw Lil Ray Howery. He was sitting next to me last night. And we. We guys are talking about.

[Spike Lee]

At the screening.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Got to talking about the Road. Bill Bellamy, another guy I've known forever. He was there. Comics were. Were there.

[Spike Lee]

Com. The comics weren't in the house.

[Marc Maron]

They certainly were. So what's the plan now? You're gonna run. Run around and sell this movie?

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

It opens tomorrow.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yep.

[Spike Lee]

And then September 5th goes Apple Plus.

[Marc Maron]

And you got another deal with them to do. Another one.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Who?

[Marc Maron]

Apple? No, no. That's just where I ended up.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And you got anything on the. On the plate?

[Spike Lee]

Yeah, stuff. I have stuff on the plate, but nothing I could really talk about.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

In this moment of time and space.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Okay. Okay. But you're excited about it?

[Spike Lee]

Oh, yes, yes. And anytime I get to work with my brother, Denzel Washer, you know, we're the dynamic duo. Oh.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

And we do our thing, so it's a blessing.

[Marc Maron]

I. I can watch him do almost anything.

[Spike Lee]

Brush his teeth. I mean, just. I mean, he's that dude. He's. He's that dude.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, man.

[Spike Lee]

He's that dude.

[Marc Maron]

He's got I'll watch all those Equalizer movies. I'll watch him.

[Spike Lee]

He's that dude.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Nice guy.

[Spike Lee]

Very nice.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Very humble. But if you do something wrong, then you're gonna get. You're gonna feel the heat. So you step out of line. No, you're gon said, I wish I do that.

[Marc Maron]

But it's quick, right? It doesn't last a long time.

[Spike Lee]

Oh, no, you don't. It's. It's like lightning quick.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then it's done.

[Spike Lee]

And then it keeps stepping.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I think. I think Brolin tells a story about that. Josh Brolin?

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Oh, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Don't touch me.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Nah, you don't want to mess with D. Yeah, you don't want to do that.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I enjoyed the movie.

[Spike Lee]

Well, thank you so much, and I.

[Marc Maron]

Hope this conversation was enjoyable.

[Spike Lee]

Oh, of course, of course.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, and I saw somewhere you mentioned Facing the Crowd.

[Spike Lee]

That's one of my favorite films.

[Marc Maron]

How great is it?

[Spike Lee]

I mean, my guy.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

Bud Showbug wrote that.

[Marc Maron]

Who wrote on the Waterfront.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Spike Lee]

So we wrote a script. We wrote a script together. So I'm still gonna make. Because I promised him, Bud, we would make it. On his deathbed, it's called, say, with Joe Lewis, about the relationship between the two heavyweights, Joe Lewis and Max Schmellen. Oh, wow.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And how's that coming?

[Spike Lee]

It's gonna happen. I made a promise to Bud on his deathbed. We became very, very close.

[Marc Maron]

What is it about, like, say, because, like, Facing the crowds. It's not an easy movie to find, generally.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah. But here's the thing, though.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

I'm gonna talk about Billy Wilder and. And Kazan. They both won. Went big with Sunset Boulevard and On the Waterfront. And the next two films bombed because of that time. Those. America wasn't ready for those films.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And the apartment, too.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah, was.

[Spike Lee]

But. But it's really the. A Face in the Crowd and the Walder film.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, Ace and Hole.

[Spike Lee]

Ace and Hole.

[Marc Maron]

The best.

[Spike Lee]

But those films bombed. America was not ready for those films that came after Oscar winners.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, well, Ace in the Hole is hard to find. Facing the Crowd's hard to find. And I think they retried to rename Ace in the Hole, you know, to.

[Spike Lee]

They call it a big carnival.

[Marc Maron]

The big carnival.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah. A lot of times a film didn't work back in old Hollywood, they put it. They put it back out in the theaters with a different title thing. People would know it's the same. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, they're Trying to sell it. But the social satire, the cutting.

[Spike Lee]

America was not ready for it at that time.

[Marc Maron]

For those two films, facing the crowd is, like, devastating. I gave it to a friend of mine who's become a big star as a cautionary tale. Maybe you should watch this, buddy.

[Spike Lee]

And you. I mean, people grew up watching Mayberry rfd, but they did not see. They did not see Andrew Griffin do that role.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but what was it about those two guys, in terms of their point of view that struck you so hard?

[Spike Lee]

The cynicism.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It's okay to do it.

[Spike Lee]

And also, it's like morality, which is a big thing in our field.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yes.

[Spike Lee]

Kirk Douglas, he could get the story, but he's gonna keep that guy buried.

[Marc Maron]

That's right.

[Spike Lee]

To keep it going.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Spike Lee]

And the guy ends up dying.

[Marc Maron]

Right, Right.

[Spike Lee]

Andy Griffin, you know, he's still CD cup.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

He gets.

[Marc Maron]

Keeps getting the money. Everybody goes away.

[Spike Lee]

Yep. And he's gonna run up for president. United States.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. Imagine that a clown is president.

[Spike Lee]

Patricia. Patricia Neal.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my God.

[Spike Lee]

She flipped the liver, the levers, so this hate could go out all over.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

The best America. Then he got exposed.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Spike Lee]

But at that time, America's not dating. They want, so.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but so it was just basically the. The courage to be cutting.

[Spike Lee]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And to. To show the truth in. In a way that, like, you're saying they weren't ready for. But it was about as palatable as they could do at that time. They thought that they could do it.

[Spike Lee]

Billy Wilder, Kazan. Bud wrote that script. Bud won an Oscar for Underwater Front. Kazan won Oscar best direct.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that thing probably moved.

[Spike Lee]

And Billy Wilder, I mean, they won a ton of Oscars for Sunset Boulevard.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Also cutting. Also cynical.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And so the Big Knife, too. The Big Knife. You know, that one with Rod Steiger. Jack Palance.

[Spike Lee]

I gotta check that out, dude.

[Marc Maron]

About the studio head, you know, and the actor. Like, you know, it's an Odette script. Right. And the Clifford Odette. Yeah, but the Big Knife's about a studio head.

[Spike Lee]

I gotta check that out.

[Marc Maron]

Who's got this guy on contract, Jack Pall, who come from.

[Spike Lee]

Zach Palance.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, he comes from New York. He was part of, like, the people's theater. He believed in the integrity of the art, and he sold his soul.

[Spike Lee]

And then he woke up. Right.

[Marc Maron]

That's another one that goes right in that. That the America wasn't ready for it category. Anyway, good to talk movies.

[Spike Lee]

All right. Have me back. Have me back.

[Marc Maron]

There you go. Spike Lee again as I mentioned at the top of the show, Highest to Lowest is streaming on Apple TV. Plus beginning tomorrow, September 5th. Hang out for a minute, folks. Hey, folks. This podcast is brought to you by Splitsville, the unromantic comedy of the year. It's a comedy about relationships and the messiness that comes with them. It's a pretty wild movie. Definitely a tongue in cheek, kind of insane relationship movie. I can't even begin to explain it, but I do know that Dakota Johnson is in it, and she was great. She always sort of holds the screen and does a thing. Very grounded performance, especially with the insanity around. There's a lot of funny stuff in this movie, and I really can't explain it to you, but it's definitely worth seeing. It also stars Audrea Arjona from Hitman and Andor. And it premiered at this year's Cannes Film Festival. Critics call it sharp, raunchy, and hilarious and a riotous comedy of marital woes that's putting it lightly. Splitsville now playing in select theaters everywhere September 5th. Get tickets now. It's a crazy movie, people. Next week, we have another guest. We've been trying to get into the garage for a while. To many people, he's Luke Skywalker. To others, he. He's the joker. To me, he's always the guy from the Big Red One with Lee Marvin. It's Mark Hamill. You know, I imagine people talk to you about Star Wars a lot, but I'd like to focus the entire hour on Sam Fuller. Oh, please do. Listen, I'll tell you something. When they offered me that. The Big Red One. The Big Red One, yeah. I had an offer to go do Equus in San Francisco, and I was sort of thinking, why would I want to go? We were shooting in Israel, Recreate the, you know, storming of Normandy beach with all these young Turks that are around my age. But I thought, I love Sam so much, I said I should go. At least go meet him and not just turn it down outright.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So my point was I was going to go meet him and explain to him why I didn't want to do it. He was such a deep dynamo little guy.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But he got up and he started, like, acting out the movie. It was firsthand experience. He was just a teenager when he fought World War II.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I'm watching this guy, and he says, and then you get out there. Actually, it was Kitz, but I'm here to give it to you because you're so handsome. And he's acting out the movie and I'm mesmerized. And I'm thinking, holy shit, I've just been drafted. Yeah, there's no way I can't work with this guy.

[Interviewer/Assistant]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's Monday's episode of wtf. And just a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast here. I just. I wanted to mellow out a pretty heavy song that we're actually going to be doing on September 10th, but we're going to do the heavy version. Boomer lives Monkey and La Fonda Cat Angels everywhere.