Episode 1682 - Judd Apatow’s Favorite WTF Moments

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron Podcast<br>Episode 1682 – Judd Apatow’s Favorite WTF Moments

Date: September 29, 2025
Host: Marc Maron
Guest: Judd Apatow

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Overview

In this milestone WTF episode, Judd Apatow—a longtime friend of both Marc and the show—joins Marc Maron to curate and revisit some of his favorite WTF podcast moments as the show approaches its official end. The format is unique: Judd brings surprise clips from the past, prompting reactions, reminiscence, and deep discussion. Together, they explore the emotional evolution of the show, the podcast’s impact on guests and audience, and the transformative power of honest, vulnerable conversation in comedy and beyond.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genesis of the Episode & Process

• Judd Apatow, a dedicated longtime listener and early supporter of WTF, proposed the idea of an episode built around his favorite moments from the show—playing clips Marc often barely remembers, then riffing and reflecting together ([00:00], [10:09]).
• Marc shares how he rarely listens to his own interviews after recording, likening the experience to hearing these moments for the first time ([00:00], [14:43]).

  "I don't listen to it. I do it, and then Brendan does his thing, and then it goes out into the world." —Marc ([00:00])

2. WTF’s Legacy and Impact

• Announcement: The show’s official end date is revealed: Monday, October 13th ([00:00]).
• Marc reflects on the podcast as a vehicle for real connection and introspection—how the show's vulnerability has unexpectedly changed both him and its audience ([00:00], [52:10]).

  "In many cases I've had a profound impact with this show, with my guests, and with what I talk about on people's lives one way or another." —Marc ([00:00])

3. Judd Apatow’s Book and His Comedy Archive

• Judd discusses his upcoming book, “Comedy: A Lifelong Obsession in Stories and Pictures,” and the process of documenting his life in comedy, including his youthful autograph collection ([10:10]).
• The pair discuss the act of archiving creative work, the fate of “papers,” and obsession with memorabilia ([11:09]).

4. Clip & Conversation: Barack Obama on Craft and Fearlessness

• A clip from the groundbreaking Obama episode ([17:45]):
  • Obama likens the craft of comedy and the presidency, emphasizing experience, instinct, and outgrowing fear ([17:50]).

    "The more you do something and the more you practice it, at a certain point it becomes second nature." —Barack Obama ([17:50]) "It's one of the benefits of age... I know what I'm doing, and I'm fearless." —Obama ([18:45])

• Marc and Judd reflect on the vulnerability and genuine presence Obama brought, contrasting it with political personas and the refusal, in some quarters, to admit mistake ([19:00]).

  "He wasn't, you know, doing the politician him." —Marc ([20:09])

5. The Landmark Louis CK Confrontation

• Clips and discussions about the pivotal series with Louis CK, in which long-standing personal tensions were aired ([24:59]):

  "It takes a good friend to stay with you in hard times. It takes a good friend to stay with you in good times." —Louis CK ([25:57]) "You shut me out because you were having a hard time." —Louis CK ([26:54]) "Can we get back on track or what?" —Marc ([27:06])

• Judd and Marc discuss how this moment helped define the medium—men addressing conflict, honesty, and vulnerability in a public forum ([24:25], [24:36]).

  "It's almost unheard of to do that." —Judd ([35:34])

• Marc reflects on friendships and how personal and professional boundaries blur and shift over time ([28:59], [33:11]).

6. The Infamous Gallagher Interview

• A tense, confrontational excerpt from the Gallagher interview, demonstrating Marc’s willingness to challenge guests and dig into uncomfortable topics ([35:41]):

  "Why are you drawing lines?" —Marc ([38:59]) "You're just arguing with me. I have 30 years of experience." —Gallagher ([39:24]) "Well, maybe it really went well. I don't know. I'm certainly not going to chase after him." —Marc ([39:36])

• Post-clip, Marc and Judd analyze the conflict, the shifting norms of comedy, and the role of confrontation versus indulgence ([40:01]-[44:41]).

7. Mike DiStefano: Humanity Amid Hardship

• A moving clip recounts DiStefano’s story of taking his terminally ill wife on a final Harley ride, exploring deep love, redemption, and the beauty in mortality ([45:49]).

  "People are dying. They don't know they're dying... they want to be loved and they want to give and share." —Mike DiStefano ([46:41]) "The biggest things that we're afraid of are really... can be the most beautiful if you look them right in the fucking eye and you don't flinch." —DiStefano ([49:43])

• Marc and Judd discuss the emotional range WTF explored, making space for empathy and personal transformation through these stories ([50:05], [52:10]):

  "That's the human stuff that is missing... from a lot of people's interactions." —Marc ([53:10])

8. Robin Williams: Humor and Despair

• Clip of Robin Williams riffing on suicide, death, and humor—showcasing his improvisational genius and personal struggle ([55:31]):

  "Let's put the suicide over here on discussable... First of all, you don't have the balls to do it." —Robin ([56:01])

• Marc reflects on Robin’s unique talents and how the interview sought to reintroduce him to a younger generation of comics ([57:57], [59:10]):

  "That is the genius in that little piece... to have that in the moment." —Marc ([57:57]) "He was always there, a constant." —Judd ([62:53])

9. Bruce Springsteen: Performance, Intimacy & Loneliness

• Clip and discussion with Bruce Springsteen about boundaries, control, and chasing love through performance ([66:15]):

  "Your desperation, your hunger, your desires, your ego, your ambition has to be greater than your fear of complete humiliation." —Bruce Springsteen ([69:13]) "There ain't no love nowhere. That's why those nights are bad." —Bruce ([69:22])

• Judd credits this as one of the best interviews Bruce has given, at once intimate and transformative for both parties ([63:16]).

10. Lightness & Mischief: Molly Shannon’s Childhood Adventure

• Molly Shannon tells a hilarious tale about sneaking onto a plane as a child, layered with nostalgia and the recklessness of another era ([76:21]):

  "We went to the airport and we had ballet outfits on, and we wanted to look really innocent." —Molly ([76:33]) "The irresponsibility of all the adults in this story is somehow undermining my appreciation of it." —Marc ([77:49])

11. The Evolution of Comedy, Talk Shows & Podcasting

• Judd and Marc reflect on the changing landscape of talk shows and podcasts: the pros and cons of democratized media, the perceived drop in show quality, and nostalgia for the creative bar set by Letterman and others ([85:21]).

  "I think they're just dealing with, like, this is enough. What else do we need?" —Marc ([84:02]) "At some point, you need the lunatics who want to really take it to the next level creatively." —Judd ([85:32])

12. Maria Bamford: Vulnerability & Empathy as Healing Agents

• Maria Bamford opens up about surviving an abusive relationship, the cycle of love and harm, and the value of talking honestly about difficult experiences ([87:27]):

  "I kept thinking, oh, I'm gonna fix it... And then it was like... I gotta let him go because I'm feeling so bad." —Maria ([88:03]) "In addition to being entertained, there are a lot of people... learned about things that they didn't know other people had or experienced." —Marc ([91:47])

13. “White Whale” Guests: Albert Brooks, Lorne Michaels, and Others

• Marc recalls finally booking elusive legends like Albert Brooks and the thrill and vulnerability of those conversations ([95:33], [97:27]).

Notable Moments:

• Albert Brooks recounting a lesson from Jack Benny:

  "If the God of comedy in my mind doesn't even know three days before he dies how important he was... you better not hold on to anything." —Albert Brooks ([96:54])

• Lorne Michaels explaining the SNL process:

  "The lions are scary when you go to the zoo... and the third, you want to see the monkeys because they're funny. And occasionally one of them jerks off." —Lorne Michaels ([113:12]) "I wasn't ready for that job. There was no fucking way." —Marc ([117:04])

14. Remembrance: Garry Shandling, Sam Kinison, and the Comedy Store

• Marc and Judd reminisce about comedians they lost, the haunted significance of the Comedy Store, and the addictive nature of both substance and creative ambition ([99:34], [106:15]).
• Marc shares how grappling with the Comedy Store's mythology was a personal quest for closure ([104:48]).

15. Norm Macdonald: Laughter and Vulnerability

• Close with Norm Macdonald discussing fear, sensitivity, and finding laughter in the absurdity of existence ([118:13]):

  "Instead of always looking inward... that one time I was looking outward." —Norm Macdonald ([119:01]) "Now I find everything funny except, like, real serious... like, I'm no fear of going on stage, but about death..." —Norm ([120:24])

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Craft & Fearlessness:

  "I've been through this. I've screwed up... and I emerged and I lived. And that's always... that's such a liberating feeling." —Barack Obama ([19:15])

• On Friendship in Comedy:

  "You shut me out because you were having a hard time." —Louis CK ([26:54])
  "With comics, a lot of our communication is very precise, whether it's busting someone's balls or, you know, 'I get it'... There's a shorthand." —Marc ([28:59])

• On Vulnerability and Empathy:

  "That's the human stuff that is missing... from a lot of people's interactions." —Marc ([53:10])

• On Tragedy and Humor:

  "Let's put the suicide over here on discussable... First of all, you don't have the balls to do it." —Robin Williams ([56:01])

• On Comedy’s Evolution:

  "At some point, you need the lunatics who want to really take it to the next level creatively." —Judd ([85:32])

• On the Podcast’s Impact:

  "In addition to being entertained, there are a lot of people... learned about things that they didn't know other people had or experienced." —Marc ([91:47])

• On Letting Go (Albert Brooks):

  "If the God of comedy in my mind doesn't even know three days before he dies how important he was... you better not hold on to anything." —Albert Brooks ([96:54])

• On Comedy Store and Legacy:

  "I was a young guy and I was kind of out of my mind and on drugs. And once I sort of enmeshed myself with that place in the history, I was haunted by it forever." —Marc ([104:48])

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Memorable Segments and Timestamps

• [17:45] – Obama on craft, vulnerability, and leadership
• [24:59] – Louis CK confrontation on friendship and jealousy
• [35:41] – Gallagher’s defensive meltdown over comedy and stereotypes
• [45:49] – Mike DiStefano’s motorcycle hospice love story
• [55:31] – Robin Williams’ riff on suicide and self-doubt
• [66:15] – Bruce Springsteen on the stage as refuge from loneliness
• [76:21] – Molly Shannon’s wild childhood adventure
• [87:27] – Maria Bamford on surviving abuse and setting boundaries
• [95:33] – Albert Brooks reflecting on Jack Benny and legacy
• [99:34] – Garry Shandling’s strategies for getting out of his own way
• [113:12] – Lorne Michaels explains SNL and Marc's long-standing myth
• [118:13] – Norm Macdonald on fear, laughter, and acute sensitivity

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Conclusion & Tone

The episode brims with warmth, candor, and a bittersweet sense of completion. Marc and Judd’s mutual respect, humor, and self-awareness shine—never shying away from the messiness of real life, creative rivalry, or internal struggles. For long-time fans and newcomers, this episode is a treasure trove: a celebration of the podcast’s legacy, of comedy as communal therapy, and the hard-won wisdom that comes from looking one another in the eye and really listening.

"This show is so amazing that I didn't do a podcast. I knew it couldn't be topped." —Judd Apatow ([122:24])

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Transcript

[Marc Maron]

Lock the gate. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the Buddies. What the fuck? Nicks, what's happening? I'm Marc Marin. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. Oh, my God. It was my birthday. Saturday was my birthday. 62 years old. Maybe I'm feeling it. Maybe I'm feeling it. I don't know. Joints are getting a little. A little achy at times. Just had a physical, which you should do. I guess it's okay. A couple of things. First of all, Judd Apatow is here today, but it's a specific type of show. Judd's been a fan of the show from the very beginning. He was an earlier listener, an early booster for the show. He was on the show about one year into doing it for episodes 103 and 104, where he gave us all these tapes that he had made when he was a teenager of him interviewing big comics, I believe, in the dressing room of the comedy club, because his mom, I believe, was a hostess there. So he was doing WTF way earlier. And when we announced that the show was ending, he texted me this. I'm quoting here. Maybe we could do an episode of WTF called Judd Apatow's Favorite WTF Moments, where I play you a clip I have chosen, and then we talk about it. You know, none of the clips in advance. And that's exactly what we did. And as many of you know, because of my process, I don't listen to the shows. In this episode with Judd, this is gonna be the first time I'm hearing a lot of these clips as audio clips. I was in the room when I did them, but my memories, that's hard to keep all those in. So I'm actually hearing them for the first time. It's just the nature of how I do it. I don't listen to it. I do it, and then Brendan does his thing, and then it goes out into the world, and rarely do I listen. Also, I think I can announce confidently right now that the end date of WTF is now official. The final episode will be on Monday, October 13th. And I don't know, it's going to happen right on time for a couple of reasons. You know, I'm dealing with Charlie, and it's not good. He's figured out a way to open the door. How the fuck did that happen? So now, like, when I think everything's safe, I'm out here in the studio, and I hear Buster being destroyed. And I gotta go in there and be like, how the Fuck. Did you open the door? I don't know. He jumps up, grabs hold of the doorknob. I don't. It's not good, but it's fortuitous, if that's the correct use of the word, that the show's ending. Cause I can reconfigure this studio, which is an adu, into kind of like another kind of office situation, maybe a screening room or where I can watch movies or work or sit down or whatever. But Charlie can live out here. I can re home. Charlie in my home. Huh? Huh? It's giving me. I don't know if that'll be the final decision, but it's given me a little reprieve from the anxiety of the Charlie situation. Folks, I'm back at Dynasty typewriter in LA for two shows in October, Saturday, October 11 and Friday, October 17. Go to wtfpod.com tour for tickets. The documentary Are We Good? Opens this Friday, October 3, in New York and Los Angeles, albeit some of the screenings here in LA this weekend at the Alamo Drafthouse and the AMC Americana, as well as at the Vancouver Film Festival. There are special screenings around the country on October 5th and October 8th. You can go to arewegoodmaren.com to see where it's playing and get tickets. We're also doing a screening at the Arrow Theater, and I believe Larry Charles is hosting the moderation on that. The Kickstarter for The Graphic Novel WTF is a podcast passed 200 grand. So that means everyone who pre ordered through Kickstarter will get a special box brown design WTF trading card featuring me and my original garage cats, Boomer Monkey and La Fonda. If it keeps going past 250 grand, everyone gets a framed set of four trading cards. Go to Z2Comics.com WTF all right, so a couple of things happened that I think I should address in my life, not in the world. Some people saw a video of me at Norm's Guitars, which is a very famous guitar place for very fancy guitars, collectible stuff. And they've just been. Is it champing at the bit about what did Mark buy at Norms? Well, you should know Mark well enough by now that Mark is not going to spend $50,000 on a collectible guitar. I was just trying to lighten my load, so I brought Norm a few guitars I didn't really play and an amplifier. So to kind of start cleaning out this the studio. And I just wanted to maybe trade it. I. I don't need the bread, but I wanted to trade it for one guitar that I would use and I needed a Telecaster. So those people that are wondering what it is I bought, I bought a 1973 black Telecaster that was called. I think it was player grade or player something or it wasn't all original in terms of one of the pickups have been replaced, but it's the paint's original and it's got a nice weight to it, like the old 70s tellies. And it's got an interesting pickup. Great sound. I played at the end of this episode, so that's what I got. Reasonable. No, no 20 to $80,000 guitars for me. The other thing I wanted to mention when I was talking to Pardo, we talked a lot about podcasters at the beginning and someone brought it up that I didn't mention Jackie Cation, which I should, because Dork Forest, her podcast has been around forever. It was there at the beginning. I did it a couple times. She was definitely in the community and it was just an oversight. And I think it's a reasonable shout out. I want to give her some love. Love, Jackie. Also, you know, I've been talking a lot for a lot of years and lately sometimes I talk on Instagram and it seems to really get around lately. But I also just want to, you know, I just want to tell you the audience, that I appreciate your emails when I get to them. And, and I appreciate the fact that, that in many cases I've had a profound impact with this show, with my guests and with what I talk about on people's lives one way or another. Helping out or, you know, keeping someone company or helping them reframe something that's been troubling them. It's something that happens that I would never have anticipated at the beginning of doing this show. And I appreciate it. I'm grateful that it has that impact. I thought I'd share just an email along these lines of like, I really don't know how my voice is going to impact anyone's life or change anybody's approach to life or help them in any way. And in this example, I think is it's not exactly the podcast, but I think it speaks a lot. Hi Mark, longtime listener, first time caller. Just wanted to send you a note of thanks, my lady. And I watched your special recently and you shared how one of your cat's balls was always under the stove. Obviously a separate ball from the balls on the cat. Our beloved black cat, Cookie, had a small blue ball toy that's her favorite, which she's had since birth, but it had gone Missing. When your bit about the stove hit us, Ta Hair immediately ran up to our stove and sure enough, the ball was there. Thanks, sir, for improving the cat experience of our household. See, it's a little thing, but to that cat, what a life change. Cat thought it was gone forever. His favorite ball. And now peace. Peace and excitement is reignited. See, it's a life changer, this show, and it's not lost on me. Okay, Judd Apatow. Now look, he's got a new book out called Comedy A Lifelong Obsession in Stories and Pictures that comes out October 28th. You can pre order it now wherever you get books. And this is Judd bringing the goods to kind of walk me through the history of my own show. So listen, something people keep saying to me about the podcast ending is that I should take a vacation. Look, I used to take vacations. I used to love to go to Kauai. I enjoyed Kauai. I would go there, you know, once a year, usually. I haven't been on a vacation. I can't remember the last vacation I've been on. I was just talking to somebody about traveling to Tuscany and Umbria. I do need to take one. But if you're planning to take a vacation, there's always the question of what to do with your empty house while you're away. Of course, there's the option to host your place on Airbnb to make some extra cash. And now it's easier than ever. With Airbnb's co host network, you get a high quality local host to take care of your home and your guests. They manage all the hosting details, send messages and updates, and are available to be on hand when your guests are there just to help out with anything that might come up. So your co host handles the details and you still make some cash while you're enjoying your vacation. Find a co [e-mail] host so, Judd, here we are. We are here. Yeah. And I appreciate you coming. And you have a plan.

[Judd Apatow]

I have a plan. You know, I.

[Marc Maron]

You're dictating this.

[Judd Apatow]

You know, I wanted to get on here to push my book. Comedy Nerd Looks Good. And it's kind of like. We were talking about that. It's kind of like the old Marx Brothers scrapbook. Yeah, the SNL scrapbook. With all the projects I've worked on. And I wrote essays and pictures. There's a lot of pictures, thousands of pictures. You're in there. Everybody's in there.

[Marc Maron]

I am. What do you got of me in there?

[Judd Apatow]

Just you performing.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, good.

[Judd Apatow]

And. But I. I literally put everything in it. It literally has, like, my autograph collection.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

You can see my autograph from Andy Kaufman and Jack Klugman, Right?

[Marc Maron]

Oh, that's great. Jack Klugman. I used to have an autograph picture of Buddy Hackett that I wrote away for.

[Judd Apatow]

That's what I would do. I would sit and I would write, like, 100 letters to see who would send me an autograph. And then I would get, like, Jackie Gleason and Gilda Radner and all these people.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

And like, a. A really young hoarder, because my hoarding must have started then. I have all of it in pristine condition. And now I feel like I. I can throw my hoard out because I put it all in the book.

[Marc Maron]

Are you going to throw it out?

[Judd Apatow]

Well, I'm going to try to throw a lot of it out because.

[Marc Maron]

What about. What about, like, the. You know, the. Where your papers put it with your papers?

[Judd Apatow]

I always hear about that. Like, we have the papers of one of the guys from Peter, Paul and Mary. Like, who. Who looks at the papers?

[Marc Maron]

Well, it's like, I guess colleges have these libraries and they employ these curators. Library. There's a librarian job to manage the papers. I just don't know. Like, I've got so many fucking things of papers, and people are like, well, you know, we should archive that. I'm like, for what?

[Judd Apatow]

Well, it's like the Bob Dylan Museum.

[Marc Maron]

And it's pretty great. Have you been there?

[Judd Apatow]

I haven't been there, and I'd love to go, but I know that mine would not be good. So I.

[Marc Maron]

What do you mean you got all these pictures? I mean, yeah, sure, you don't have the original Tangled up in Blue lyrics.

[Judd Apatow]

But I have, like, a little piece of paper where, like, I thought of a dumb joke like, Steve Carell pees with a boner. And I'm so proud of that little scrap of scrap of paper. But I. Hopefully we'll be able to let go of some of it. But the proceeds go to the fires for victims of the fires. And so.

[Marc Maron]

And you do all these shows at Largo, too, that are all benefits for different things.

[Judd Apatow]

I know. I realize that I'm the only one who literally has never taken a dime from Largo.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, well, I mean, do you need it?

[Judd Apatow]

I think it's that. And, like, am I really good enough to ask for the money?

[Marc Maron]

Well, the weird thing is you are, but obviously. But the good thing about Largo is you can the. They like to see you process there. It's a very odd thing.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah, they like to see you working on stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, People came to see my hour, like, again and again, and then they watched a special and they're like, we saw this early on, and it's really good what he did with it. And that's why when I did this special, there was a bit in there where I'm like, I got to. I don't know if I should do all three beats of this bit, because it's going to be exactly the bit that's going to alienate, you know, people. And it wasn't the bit I cut. It was really, how far do I want to go with that? The Sarge character, the babysitter guy, and Lipside, my buddy's like, you gotta do all of it.

[Judd Apatow]

You gotta do all of it. Well, when I saw that, I was excited for you to open up like that. I'm all for people really opening up. It's funny because I've been working on all these documentary projects. We have one about Mel Brooks, one about Maria Bamford, one about Norm MacDonald. And I realized I do like seeing the deep, emotional part of people, which.

[Marc Maron]

In a lot of some of those people wasn't on stage.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah, just what all of our struggles are.

[Marc Maron]

Maria is full struggle. Norm, not so much like the opposite.

[Judd Apatow]

Hard to know with some of these people. You did one of the best interviews with Norm. I think of all the interviews anyone ever did with Norm, your interview was the best. That feels like a transition into what we're gonna do.

[Marc Maron]

Okay. Yeah. Well, I mean, well, you've been, you know, a big supporter and listener of the show, you know, on your own. You know, Noah, you found it and you stuck with it. And. And the interesting thing about this, and I've talked about it with Brendan and people, they asked me about, do I listen to podcasts? And I'm like, I don't. And I don't even listen to mine. So almost all, I would say 99.9% of my recollections of interviews are whatever stuck in my mind because I don't listen to it again unless Brendan sort of like, I worked, really. This one took me hours to make him sound like he knew what he's talking about. And then I'll listen to it, but I don't listen.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So whatever you're about to do, some.

[Judd Apatow]

Clips for you, that's what we're going to do.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it's going to be. It's going to be interesting because sometimes people like Brendan can quote things because he's listened to them over and over again. And I'm like, I said that that was pretty funny.

[Judd Apatow]

I mean, I get the idea that of not listening to things again. I remember meeting people who wouldn't watch anything. Owen Wilson didn't watch anything.

[Marc Maron]

I know he doesn't watch any of it.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah, Adam Driver didn't watch, I think so one episode of Girls. He was forced to at the premiere. Bill Hader didn't want to watch anything. Schumer forced him to sit and watch Train Wreck. And then years later, I think he finally sat down and watched some of his SNL stuff. You know, his really, his wife at the time said, you really need to see what you've accomplished. And then he had to make Barry.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

And then he, you know, he saw how helpful, I'm sure it was to, to be in charge of your performance and to edit yourself and. And he had to deal with watching himself.

[Marc Maron]

It is helpful, especially with the acting. But like, also, I don't quite understand how you can just be satisfied with acting as the process. There's some part of me that's like, yeah, it was okay doing those little bits and pieces and then it all comes together. But how does Owen not watch any of the stuff to see the work? Do you know what I mean? It's not satisfying enough for me just to do the acting.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, I think some people, they, they just want to be so uninhibited. And the thing that allows them to be uninhibited is that they will never watch it.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Judd Apatow]

And I think that's what maybe someone like Adam Driver thinks about it, is I can be 100% present because there's no part of my brain that's like, oh, this might really be embarrassing.

[Marc Maron]

Right. That's interesting.

[Judd Apatow]

So I get it. Like, I realized recently that I don't. I generally don't watch the movies I've worked on again. And then not consciously. Usually I'll watch the ones I produce. Like I'll watch stepbrothers every single time. But the ones I've directed, I don't watch.

[Marc Maron]

But you've spent so much time with them.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah, you get kind of burnt out on them. Like recently, you know, it's the 20th anniversary of the 40 year old virgin. They showed it at the Academy Museum with a thousand people. And I hadn't watched it in 20 years. And I got to watch it like a fan. Like, I didn't remember for real 80%.

[Marc Maron]

Of the jokes, really, and how funny it was.

[Judd Apatow]

And I was laughing. They're putting it in the theater at the end of August. Trainwreck and 40 year old virgin. 40 year old virgins for their 20th and 10th anniversaries. But I thought, why don't I watch them? And I don't know, it's almost like it's emotionally overwhelming. It's like bumping into an ex girlfriend or something.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. The awkwardness.

[Judd Apatow]

But we're gonna do it right now. So I asked to do this. I said, let me pick some clips as conversation starters and maybe it'll be interesting because you haven't heard most of them since y.

[Marc Maron]

That's true.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, maybe we should start with the Barack Obama clip.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Judd Apatow]

And then we'll discuss what we make of it now.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

The more you do something and the more you practice it, at a certain point it becomes second nature. And what I've always been impressed about.

[Marc Maron]

When I listen to comics talk about comedy is how much of it is a craft. Right. And they're thinking it through and it's.

[Barack Obama]

And they have a sense of when.

[Marc Maron]

It works and when it doesn't. And then the longer you do it.

[Barack Obama]

The better your instincts are.

[Marc Maron]

Same with President.

[Barack Obama]

Yeah, same with President.

[Marc Maron]

And also.

[Barack Obama]

I guess the last thing is you lose fear.

[Marc Maron]

That's right.

[Barack Obama]

I was talking to somebody the other.

[Marc Maron]

Day about why I actually think I'm.

[Barack Obama]

A better president and would be a better candidate if I were running again.

[Marc Maron]

Than I ever have been.

[Barack Obama]

And it's sort of like an athlete. You might slow down a little bit. You might not jump as high as you used to. But I know what I'm doing, and I'm fearless.

[Marc Maron]

For real. You're not pretending to be fearless.

[Barack Obama]

Pretending to be fearless.

[Marc Maron]

That's exactly right. And when you get to that point, freedom, then, you know. And also part of that fearlessness is.

[Barack Obama]

Because you've screwed up enough times.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. That you know that it's all happened. It's all happened.

[Barack Obama]

I've been through this. I've screwed up.

[Marc Maron]

I've been in the barrel, tumbling down Niagara Falls.

[Barack Obama]

And I emerged and I lived. And that's always. That's such a liberating feeling.

[Marc Maron]

Absolutely right.

[Barack Obama]

It's one of the benefits of age. It almost compensates for the fact that I can't play basketball anymore.

[Marc Maron]

Well, good. All right. Well, thanks. It was great to talk to you there. We good? We're good. That was fun. I appreciate it, Mr. President. It was great. All right, man. Wow. I don't think I realized how truly present and somewhat vulnerable he was in the conversation, because that's what I'm hoping for. And that's the end of the conversation. But, you know, we were both comfortable, but I could hear it in his voice. He wasn't, you know, doing the politician him. And, and also, like, I'm always amazed at my. My fearlessness to go ahead and, you know, finish even the president's sentences.

[Judd Apatow]

That's a level of narcissism that most people don't have.

[Marc Maron]

Is it narcissism or is it just impatience? I. I don't. You know, because like, he took it. You know, when I pop the word in there, he's like, yeah, because sometimes it's really not. It's not self centeredness. It's sort of like I'm like, you know, I just want to keep, keep a pace going, you know, so it's more in any moment when I do that, it's generally like, either I've heard this before or, you know, let's keep it going. Like, I don't like dead air that much.

[Judd Apatow]

And a president could take 11 minutes to answer each question, and then you got four in.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. And that was like. That was why we crafted that interview the way we did. Because he's got. He has a tendency. And if you talk about politics with. Gonna get in the weeds, man. And we only had an hour, and we did have to cover some stuff at the beginning, but he was very. He's always pretty thoughtful and deliberate, but there was a vulnerability there that I don't think I remember well.

[Judd Apatow]

I think that it's nice to hear a president talk about how difficult these decisions are to make, as opposed to a president who will never admit that anything is hard or that he's ever made a mistake. There's such a madness to the fact that our president never says, I screwed that one up.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

And it's almost like a mental health issue.

[Marc Maron]

But to blame. He blames someone else. That's narcissism.

[Judd Apatow]

Someone else put Ghislaine in the nice prison.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. Or just like, yeah, I didn't know about that. And, you know, I guess they took care of it. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

[Judd Apatow]

I don't know about the case. I like that he keeps saying. I don't know why anyone's interested in that. It's like.

[Marc Maron]

It's boring. Well, yeah. Well, he is the public face of his job, as it turns out, despite all their doublespeak, is to, you know, to, to. To make the deep state, you know, publicly charming like he is. A rev. He is the deep state, and he is a puppet of it, and the real deep state. And now it's sort of like deep state is sort of like, let's put this guy out there. They like him so, you know, will be sort of national sweethearts.

[Judd Apatow]

What would you have done if Donald Trump wanted to come on wtf?

[Marc Maron]

We had an agreement that when he was president before, now, again, on the basis of fair play, if he would come on with the same terms as Obama, which was, we get final cut, they don't get questions, and that's that we would do it, but we didn't pursue it. But we. We said if they came to us, we would have to do it. But, you know, he would have done that and would have just been what it is. I mean, it's like he doesn't. Yeah, he'll just yammer on about whatever.

[Judd Apatow]

Did you have sympathy for the people interviewing Trump about how difficult it would be, or did you feel like. Nah, there's four or five things you could have. You could have pushed him a little bit on that. It still would have been respectful, but we would have got a clear answer on something about what he might do.

[Marc Maron]

Maybe. I don't know if you can get a clear answer from that guy. I think that I don't know what my approach would be, but generally it's to get them grounded in how they got there. So it would be interesting to kind of get into his childhood and his development, and I don't know how willing he is or how he has that framed, but I would probably approach it the same way. I do other things.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah. Well, there's other people here now. A big. A big moment in. In the history of the show.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Was when you spoke to Louis CK about your friendship.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Judd Apatow]

And am I correct in saying, like, that really made the show take off in a lot of ways? People were very interested in that confrontation.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it seems that. That, you know, at the time. At that time, in podcasting, which was a smaller world, that those two episodes really jumped out in terms of how I do it and what was done and how we sort of dealt with something real. And there was a human tension to it, but I think it did sort of represent the possibilities of the medium in terms of how I do it at that time. And I don't think it had been.

[Judd Apatow]

Done, really, where people, and especially men, looked each other in the eye and got honest about what their conflicts and disconnections were.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And I was, you know, in retrospect, willing to take Some hits. Because, you know, Louis kind of dictates the interaction generally. But, you know, all in all, it was interesting. You know, I. I haven't listened to that in a while.

[Judd Apatow]

You're about to.

[Marc Maron]

I think you're changing the tone of how television can be made, and I'm very proud of you, and I'm excited for your success.

[Louis C.K.]

Thank you, man.

[Marc Maron]

And it's great to see you.

[Louis C.K.]

Yeah, you too.

[Marc Maron]

And. And I'm glad. Glad we had this talk. Yeah.

[Louis C.K.]

You know, it's. When you know somebody for a long time, it's very valuable. Valuable thing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. It's beautiful.

[Louis C.K.]

I mean, we were best friends for a long time.

[Marc Maron]

I know.

[Louis C.K.]

Long, long time.

[Marc Maron]

You know? Well, it's hard. It's.

[Louis C.K.]

There's times where it's hard to be your friend's friend.

[Marc Maron]

I know, but I don't have them. I don't. It's not like I have new friends.

[Louis C.K.]

It's not like I was replaced by anybody that would feel worse.

[Marc Maron]

No. I'm still the same guy in a lot of ways.

[Louis C.K.]

Well, look, here's. I can give you and you don't. You don't have to put this in the podcast if you don't want to, but what I would say as far as trying to stay friends with somebody, that you have a hard time thinking about what they're doing against what you're doing is focus on them needing a friend.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Louis C.K.]

It takes a good friend to stay with you in hard times.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Louis C.K.]

It takes a good friend to stay with you in good times. Everybody needs support. Everybody does.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Louis C.K.]

So you're letting me down. If you see me doing something and you have a hard time coming to terms with it because you're feeling about your own life, what's really happening is you're letting me down as a friend. You're being a shitty friend. Went by being jealous.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Louis C.K.]

So think about the other person. Think about what they might need. I could have used you. I could have used you. I got divorced. I got a show canceled. You know, I had some tough times. I could have used a friend.

[Marc Maron]

But you didn't.

[Louis C.K.]

During those times that were making. Those times that were making you jealous, I was struggling. I was having a hard time. Doing the Louis show was really hard.

[Marc Maron]

It was.

[Louis C.K.]

Trying to keep my family together was hard.

[Marc Maron]

But the thing is that in the way our friendship always operated, it was not that I was kept up to date in the day to day things. It wasn't a day to day call that we had, but it seemed that most of the Time. The thing that made our friendship so deep and so strong was that when we did talk, we made each other feel better.

[Louis C.K.]

No, it's true. But you shut me out. You shut me out because you were having a hard time.

[Marc Maron]

Okay, well, I apologize again.

[Louis C.K.]

Well, I apologize to you because then I did it to you probably out of resentment. Ignored your emails. Because you ignored my phone calls back when there was no email.

[Marc Maron]

Well, can we get back on track or what?

[Louis C.K.]

Yeah, I think we can.

[Marc Maron]

Because I, you know, I mean, you understand me. You know, I mean, and not a lot of people do. And you. And the one thing that. Even when I tell stories about it, you know, it's just that, like, you always, you know, are able to, even in your weird way. And even if I thought you weren't listening, even when you did pick up what I was saying, that you were able to. To give me a great deal of relief, you know, fairly quickly. And I miss that.

[Louis C.K.]

Well, we understand each other's flaws very well because we share some.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Louis C.K.]

And we've known each other long enough to understand them. So that's why we're able to look at each other, like, tell each other about moments that we don't want to tell anybody else.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Louis C.K.]

And to be able to say, have the other person go, yeah, I get it, instead of going, oh, my God, why did you do that? Or, yeah, the only time I did that. Well, don't, don't, don't be stupid. Do this instead, or whatever that happens.

[Marc Maron]

And the only time I said, oh my God was when I realized that I had missed, you know, so much of your life and I felt horrible about it.

[Louis C.K.]

You know, it's funny is I did the same thing when you got divorced the first time I got mad at you.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Louis C.K.]

And I know now why, because I was married and I didn't want you to. I didn't want you to get out.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it's.

[Louis C.K.]

It's hard because being divorced, it has changed my relationship to a lot of people that are married that I knew before.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Louis C.K.]

It just changes things. People look at you differently.

[Marc Maron]

So let's. I love you, man. Let's just try to fucking.

[Louis C.K.]

Yeah, same.

[Marc Maron]

Be better, better friends. Okay. Oh, my God. Yeah. Interesting. Well, what's interesting about that is that there is, especially in our world, because of the nature of what we do and that we're all pretty flawed people, that the community, like there is a shorthand, you know, that there's very few people who I have a day to day friendship with, you know, which I do. Neither of them are comics. But with comics, because they.

[Judd Apatow]

Because they're your cats.

[Marc Maron]

Okay, you got me. No, they're just guys that are in different elements of creative life. Sam Lipside, Jerry Stahl. But comics, you know, a lot of our communication is. Is very precise, whether it's busting someone's balls or, you know, I get it, you know, and it's. It's almost unspoken, you know, and there are some guys that can see right through my shit. And, you know, I love when people, you know, kind of, you know, take me down to size if I. If I like them and they're funny. And because of that entry point, you do have sort of an understanding because it's a. It used to be a much smaller and rarefied community of weirdos that we're all kind of on the spectrum of whatever the fuck is wrong with comics. And with Louis, the weird thing is that it did really come out. Cause I didn't know how he framed that in terms of our friendship. You know, what best friends implies to a lot of people is, like, you travel together, you're friends with each other's wives or whatever. But with me and Louis, mostly because I was and am still a pretty isolated person with a small social circle he would dip in and we'd connect and we'd hammer it out, and he'd get. We get some laughs and, you know, he'd sort of give me some insight. He. He's a pretty philosophical guy and, you know, a fairly wise guy because he's an autodidact who. Who is brilliant. And he crams his head with trying to understand himself and trying to understand the world, you know, and he'll sit there and read the, you know, the biography of Teddy Roosevelt and glean some life advice from it, you know, so that was. But he's also very funny. But he also knew, you know, how crazy I was. So I think, you know, the idea of best friends, you know, becomes sort of a, you know, a confidant thing, like he said. And also that the time you do spend together, you know, is, you know, helpful to both of you. You know, I. I think that I don't ever remember him really, you know, leaning on me or needing advice sometimes, you know, I'd be on the list of people he would call to. To say, like, I. I don't know what. You know, I mean, what to do, or whatever, but it wasn't just me. You know what I mean? But. But yeah, we. We. We were there at weird, pivotal times for each other's lives. And I think a lot of that stuff holds up. And then ultimately what happened is, you know, we were not able to sustain the friendship through his trials and tribulations because I had to speak publicly about it because of those podcasts, that we were sort of connected. And I, you know, I was, you know, pressed for a reaction to, you know, what he was going through. And although I. I felt like I handled it diplomatically and correctly and, and still making myself available to be his friend, I. I feel like he felt. I don't. I don't know that he felt betrayed, but he. I. I think he felt like. Like, you know, like I. Him somehow, which if. I think if you listen to. To how I handled that, I. I don't think that's true. And since then, you know, he did send me an. A rather awkward email saying, like, you know, the. The contents of it is unimportant, really, so as not to start shit. But I said, you know, he said, but I'd be willing to talk. You know, I'd say, well, yeah, that'd be great, but I'm not. I'm not going to, you know, rehash how I handled your situation. And he was like, well, then I don't think we. We can do it. Then. I'm like, okay. I've been okay for a few years now, so that's fine. And then it was weird when I'd see him, and, like, there was this, you know, like, weirdness there. And then like the last time at the Cellar, I don't know what changed or why, but, you know, I was there and for. It was like, for some reason at the table. Like, Santino and Bobby Lee were in town and Chris Rock was there and Darren Aronofsky and Louis was there, and I was sitting at the table and they. Louis and Chris and come in and I'm like, how's this gonna. And, you know, he was perfectly nice and, you know, you know, making space for me to talk and, you know, friendly, like old, old time, me and him. Yeah. But nothing ever happened after that. But that happens.

[Judd Apatow]

I mean, the whole issue of, like, your friendships in the world of your job and comedy is always interesting because now we. We've had those relationships with people for 30, 40 years.

[Marc Maron]

I know.

[Judd Apatow]

While we're watching everyone go through all sorts of.

[Marc Maron]

That's right.

[Judd Apatow]

You know, life changes, marriages, kids, turmoil.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Diseases.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

And. And it's interesting, like, who you stay connected with, you know, who become your go to's and people you were so Close to it. People just drift off sometimes for just completely natural reasons.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Judd Apatow]

Like, they're just. They got four kids and.

[Marc Maron]

No, you get.

[Judd Apatow]

They went.

[Marc Maron]

You get that? Yeah. And I don't know that I fully understood that when I was younger, you know, because I was sort of self involved. But, you know, in grown upness, you know, I don't get close to a lot of people in a way that, you know, would be an emotional risk to me unless I can really trust them, which isn't easy. And I don't. I'm not in the loop with a lot of people's lives. And I had an experience recently with a comic that, you know, he had misunderstood something and he just shut me out of his life entirely. And for a long time. For too long. And when we finally, you know, coincidentally saw each other publicly, I was like, you know, what. What is going on, dude? And he's like, you want to do this? And I'm like, yeah. And he told me what was up, and I'm like, that. That is, like, totally wrong. It's all. It's all in your head and what. It doesn't even make sense. And then he was like, oh, okay. And then. But it's too late.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, it's like, you know, we, you know, I see him now and. And, you know, we talk and stuff. But I, you know, I did consider him a friend. And also this idea of I could have used you and whatever, fucking call me, man. I mean, there's very few times I'm not available, despite whatever you think, you know what I mean? Like. But this idea that you get something in your head and then you fucking detach and then you're like, you weren't there for me. I'm like, what am I supposed to do if you don't call me or text me or say, let's have lunch, Jesus Christ, it's not like I'm doing a million things. Certainly back then.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, that was what Garry Shandling always found most interesting when we were working on the Larry Sanders show is he always said that people are so rarely honest and real with each other. People never look each other in the eye and have it out in a very direct way. And I think that's what people found so interesting, especially in the early years of this show, was that you were doing that with people. And it's just almost unheard of.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

To. To do that. Here's another one of someone you had a conflict with. I don't think you cleaned it up, though, with this person I put you.

[Marc Maron]

In the context of, of the history of comedy. You were a profound presence on the conversation. I know that, Gallagher. I know.

[Gallagher]

Original.

[Marc Maron]

I'm not saying you didn't write original material. I'm just asking where you're coming from. From. I was just asking where you're coming from, that's all. I respect you as a comedian.

[Gallagher]

Do you see any lesbian jokes in my 14 one hour shows?

[Marc Maron]

No. No, but what happened?

[Gallagher]

One night I told some I heard on the street. Everybody's up in arms over it.

[Marc Maron]

No, no, but, but why the shift? Why, why did you.

[Gallagher]

It's not a shift. It's only five jokes. I do a two hour, two and a half, sometimes three hours. I get on at eight, I'm off at 11. Okay, everybody focuses on one thing.

[Marc Maron]

No, no, I focus. I focus on all of it.

[Gallagher]

I'm the problem. Do you think when I'm dead, gays will finally have an opportunity in America? Have I really been holding them down?

[Marc Maron]

No, you don't. You don't hold down. No, no, no, wait a minute. You don't hold gays down. Well, then what's your problem with that? No, I don't have any problem with you. I'm just saying that you reaffirm prejudice by making.

[Gallagher]

Can we tell a Jew joke that they don't want to pay.

[Marc Maron]

Why? It's not true.

[Gallagher]

It's not true. Why do people laugh?

[Marc Maron]

Because it's a stereotype that's been established. Most people that you laugh at those jokes don't even have a Jew in their life.

[Gallagher]

I don't do any joke.

[Marc Maron]

I don't see.

[Gallagher]

You can do whatever you, you can.

[Marc Maron]

Do whatever you want.

[Gallagher]

Black comedians only talk about the difference between blacks and whites, right?

[Marc Maron]

Well, there are some stereotypes. Look, I, I'm a person that thinks that some stereotypes, some parts of stereotypes are obviously true. The Jewish ones.

[Gallagher]

Well, no, but, but if picking on white people as. That they don't do or, or, or.

[Marc Maron]

Talking about black community stuff. And, and I, and I understand that there are stereotypes that fit only talk about fat.

[Gallagher]

There's this midget comic that only does middle midget jokes. I watched his whole act.

[Marc Maron]

What else is he going to do? That's his wife.

[Gallagher]

No, he could be generally funny. There's a comp.

[Marc Maron]

But he's getting laughs. But by your context, if he's getting.

[Gallagher]

Yeah, change the subject.

[Marc Maron]

We're bored. Are they. If they're still laughing.

[Gallagher]

No, it's, there's no dynamics. But, but most comedians are terrible. They should listen to me.

[Marc Maron]

Okay? I, I. I will hear you out, and I.

[Gallagher]

And I help him when I can.

[Marc Maron]

What is your problem with most comedians?

[Gallagher]

Well, like I just said, their show has no dynamics. And it's not a show based on their knowledge of the audience. It's a show about them. And comedy is not therapy just because it's a.

[Marc Maron]

Wait a minute. But if you're talking about a show about them, if some. If you're saying that a person that talks about themselves on stage is not a comedian, then you're dismissing a great many great comics. Yeah. Yeah. So you're wrong. No, they didn't do it wrong. Okay?

[Gallagher]

You walk in a doctor's office and he talks about his problems instead of.

[Marc Maron]

That's an old joke. If a comedian talks about himself, and that is funny. If a comedian is a storyteller that you see by your. By your rubric, you're dismissing.

[Gallagher]

He can't work at state fair.

[Marc Maron]

Who the fuck wants to work a state fair, necessarily?

[Gallagher]

Everybody, really.

[Marc Maron]

So in order to work a state fair, you have to take the Gallagher class.

[Gallagher]

You have to work faster and more general. There are families out there, and they're not interested in your long, subtle stories.

[Marc Maron]

Okay, that's fine. That's a state fair circuit. But the comedy club circuit, the cabaret circuit, can indulge a different. Why can't you just see it as all being part of show business? Why are you.

[Gallagher]

Because there's no show involved. There are a bunch of slovenly. They hunch over, they turn their back on the audience, they take a drink.

[Marc Maron]

That's their style.

[Gallagher]

Water.

[Marc Maron]

It's show business. Why are you drawing lines?

[Gallagher]

Why are you taking the other side of everything I say?

[Marc Maron]

I'm not. I'm just saying you are. I'm.

[Gallagher]

Why did you want me to do this interview if you don't think I know anything about what. What you're asking?

[Marc Maron]

I'm just telling. I'm done. You're done? I'm done.

[Gallagher]

You're just arguing.

[Marc Maron]

It's.

[Gallagher]

It's. It's Howard Stern, and I'm not.

[Marc Maron]

I was just having a conversation. I have more respect for comedy.

[Gallagher]

You're trying to be controversial.

[Marc Maron]

I am not.

[Gallagher]

Yes, you are. You're just arguing with me. I have 30 years of experience.

[Marc Maron]

Well, then tell me about comedy. I. I just think that show business is show business.

[Gallagher]

Well, then just. Why don't you do the interview and tell people your opinion?

[Marc Maron]

We were having a good conversation. Oh, come on, Gallagher. All right, well, that didn't. Well, maybe it really went well. I don't know. I'm certainly not going to chase after him. Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Come on, Gallagher.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I haven't heard that in a while.

[Judd Apatow]

What? That was pretty early in the.

[Marc Maron]

In the run, I guess, and it was quite coincidental. It's not like we booked him. I just knew he was in town. The best part of that whole experience with him was we're at the hotel and I met him in the lobby. He's like, I'm going to show you a trick. And he's like, we're going to get free coffee. Because there was some sort of thing in the conference room. He's like, come on.

[Judd Apatow]

You know, he's been doing that in all the hotels he's worked in his whole life. Like, you know, there's a. There's a commissary for the employees. They'll give you free chicken dinner.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. So I. But I have, like, in my mind, thought, like, well, was I indicting him? And I don't think I was. I think that was, you know, I was trying that my. My argument or, you know, what I was trying to. To sort of expand on with him was valid.

[Judd Apatow]

Was he in trouble for some jokes? Is that what happened? There was something.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Well, he had, you know, done these, like, you know, old street jokes. But he's clearly at the moment where he says, you know, black people talk about white people all the time, then, you know, it's game over. Because he's dug into something that is not. It's a false equivalent, you know, and it's clearly, you know, racially motivated. So, like, his. His idea is, like, if people laugh at it, you know, what could be wrong? And, well, again, you can say whatever you want, and you might have an audience for that. But in the big picture, if it may not be wrong, but it's insensitive and he doesn't give a fuck.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah. Or worthy of a debate. That doesn't have to be where he goes into total meltdown.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I mean, it took a minute, but. But he wasn't. The truth was, is that it could have. If he could have said, like, I understand your point, but this is, you know, this is how I do it. It would have been different. Yeah, but. But I do not think I was being. I think I was trying to get to the place where we could talk about his career. And again, I just interviewed him. Cause I knew he was in town and it happened, and I had to bend my brain into that place where it's like, this guy was at the store in the 70s. He's a guy, he did his own thing, Everybody knows him. So he has a place in this. And I think in the conversation about the idea of putting on a show, I mean, that's valuable. That makes sense. That is where he comes from. It's almost a street performer or pop singer idea because it's more than just having a big closer. It's having, you know, he's a prop act. So, you know, you kind of evolve this big show. But the fact that he sees that as the only viable form of comedy is ridiculous.

[Judd Apatow]

When he decides he doesn't like anyone talking about themselves.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. And if, like, if, if that's any indication of who he was, it'd be impossible to sit through.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah. Then, then there's. I mean, I, I get when some people, you know, have fun with that. Like, everyone's opening up too much. Like, there's certainly a. A discussion to be had about the bloodletting that's happening. I, I always enjoy anyone open in.

[Marc Maron]

A vein, but it doesn't happen. Like, that was sort of like the, the false promise of alt comedy is that because most of those people did not go on to have big comedy careers. Really, that whole scene, because it was indulgent and, you know, in San Francisco used to be a little indulgent, but there is a way to do that. And, And I guess, you know, I guess it is sort of, you know, outside of, like, if you really think about people who do that for real and the toll it takes on them and how they have to frame it, it's really only Richard Lewis. Right. I mean, who else was really doing that? Like, you know, like, okay, I go to therapy, whatever, a couple jokes. But to live in, you know, the mental illness that he had as being the only resource for him to make jokes. I mean, and it's sort of specific. I mean, and I think a lot of people like Richard Lewis, but a lot of people probably don't because of that. So I think that line of figuring out how to be that indulgent, because your point of view is limited to you, which I decided to do, you know, out of not wanting material to be stolen or to cross streams, you know, it's challenging because there's always going to be people calling you a navel gazer or you're just doing therapy or whatever, because a lot of people would do that, but they do it in character, like Woody Allen was in character, you know, so all the analysis, jokes and everything else in terms of true vulnerability around going through life was tempered by that.

[Judd Apatow]

But also the personal stuff, I think seems to hold up better over time. The Richard Pryor material about his life.

[Marc Maron]

The best really holds up.

[Judd Apatow]

And I think some of the other styles of comedies, well, he's like the.

[Marc Maron]

Template because, you know, he had this whole, like, canvas of characters and social position, you know, but once he started fucking up. And there's bits and pieces in some of the records leading up to the massive fuck up, you know, the two. Like the one where he shot the car, which was earlier, and then the one where he set himself on fire. So of course it's gonna hold up because a guy set himself on fire, the funniest man in the world set himself on fire. Smoking crack or freebasing.

[Judd Apatow]

Always a solid story.

[Marc Maron]

Totally.

[Judd Apatow]

And speaking of which, there was a comedian who's no longer with us who was on the show named Mike DiStefano.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Who had an amazing bunch of stories he told on your show. And I think he did it in the moth.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. That was a big breakthrough for him.

[Judd Apatow]

And someone who we all lost way too soon. So I thought I would play a clip from that episode.

[Mike DiStefano]

I. I said, why is she so mad at me? He goes, well, she just feels like you're moving on with your life and you don't love her anymore. Like, you have this motorcycle and I.

[Marc Maron]

You.

[Mike DiStefano]

And he said, you don't need her anymore. Like, that was a strange thing. And I realized how much I did need her.

[Marc Maron]

Like, I loved her.

[Mike DiStefano]

Like she was my best friend. And so what I did was I went home and I brought some of my work shirts back to the hospice. So I bring these shirts, these work shirts into her. And she was Sicilian. So I said, franny, my shirts are a fucking mess. I need you to iron them for me.

[Marc Maron]

She got all you.

[Mike DiStefano]

I'm in a hospice, you know. So I went, I left, I come back 20 minutes later, all the shirts are iron. You know, she got up and then she's like, where's the motorcycle? Now she's excited about, I guess. And that guy was right. She just wanted to know that. That I still needed her.

[Marc Maron]

Like, I loved her. You know what I mean?

[Mike DiStefano]

Like, people are dying. They don't know they're dying. They're. They feel I'm alive. Dying is an event. They pass away at one moment. Up until that moment, they are alive and they want to be loved and they want to give.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Mike DiStefano]

And share, you know, in that case. So now she wants to see that I take her out. She wants to sit on it. I Put her on it. She wants to start it up now. She's wearing a paper dress, you know, essentially.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Mike DiStefano]

She's got her more morphine pole next door and she's sitting on this Harley and I'm worried about her burning her friggin Lego. So I'm. She says, can you just take me for a little ride around the parking lot?

[Marc Maron]

I'm like, no, I can't. I'm thinking, get the. You got a drift IV with.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah.

[Mike DiStefano]

And then it just hit me. I'm like, no, you have to.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Mike DiStefano]

Like you're in this moment. You have to do this motorcycle ride.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike DiStefano]

You know, and it's dangerous. And what if she falls and you know, what if I. One day I'm telling the story of my wife. She almost died of aids, but then I killed her on my Harley. She fell off and banged her fucking head. That's how she, you know, that's a fucked up story, you know, so. And then that's when I realized, you know, fuck it.

[Marc Maron]

Fuck, of course. Yeah.

[Mike DiStefano]

So I'm riding around the hospice parking lot and then my friend comes barreling in this van who's a cripple in a wheelchair, laughing.

[Marc Maron]

What are you doing?

[Mike DiStefano]

I said, I'm riding Franny around. Franny's like, can we just go out on the street a little bit?

[Marc Maron]

Where's the morphine drip? She holding it?

[Mike DiStefano]

She's holding the pole, Mark. It was a pole with four wheels on the bottom.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Mike DiStefano]

And we're riding around this hospice. You can hear the goddamn wheels changling and banging.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Mike DiStefano]

It was insane. And then I passed the front door and all these nurses are standing out front and they're all crying. They're watching us and they're fucking crying. And I didn't know why they were crying. I was like, why they crying? I didn't get what they were seeing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Mike DiStefano]

I didn't know because I was just in it. I was living it. I knew my. This. My wife who had suffered the suffering that she had been through in her life. She was a prostitute, she was a fucking heroin addict, you know, she was beaten by fucking pimps. And this is her past, you know, and. And then she ends up with this AIDS and she's dying and all she wants. Wants is a fucking ride on my motorcycle, you know, what a gift, you know, so next thing you know, we're on i95. Because women, it's never enough for them. We're on 95, she's got. She unhooks the fucking pole and she's holding the morphine bag over her head.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. With a.

[Mike DiStefano]

With her gown on that's flying up in the air so you could see her entire naked bony body.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Mike DiStefano]

With the morphine bag whipping in the wind. And I'm driving and we're passing by these guys in their Lamborghinis and shit. And I'm looking at them like, what the. How do these people.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. What are you doing? Life? Are you living? Look at me.

[Judd Apatow]

I'm the.

[Mike DiStefano]

I'm on top of the world here. And, you know, that was the last thing I did with her, you know, and, you know, I feel so blessed and lucky, like. You know what I mean?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Mike DiStefano]

I feel like that was. You can't ask for a better moment.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Mike DiStefano]

In a memory than that, you know, so.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it's heavy, man.

[Mike DiStefano]

Yeah, it's beautiful stuff, you know, and it's. It's what we all. You know, the biggest things that we're afraid of are really. Can be the most beautiful if you look. If you look them right in the fucking eye and you don't flinch because there's something really beautiful behind it.

[Marc Maron]

Hell of a story.

[Judd Apatow]

Do you remember doing that interview?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. I think we were in Florida. And, you know, the range of personal experience of sadness, trauma, losing control of your life, it's all varied, but the impact is always similar if you connect with it. But I think what's beautiful about him, about Disappano, is that this is a. It's. It's a hard life, but it's also, you know, a life that could be judged, you know, by, you know, proper culture, you know, that, you know, he was a sober guy, you know, and when he talks about what his wife did and who she was and, you know, who he was, you know, this is an easy sort of humanity to dismiss as degenerate or, you know, like, what a fucking out of control loser or whatever. But to find the humanity in those moments for people that have had that type of rough go at it, whether it's jail or drugs or horrendous abuse, it's very powerful to humanize things that can be dismissed as, you know, weak willed or criminal or whatever. It's because the struggle is the same. And when people transcend those types of situations with their humanity, it's humbling and it's powerful and it's a testament to the human spirit and it transcends whatever judgment you're going to put on it.

[Judd Apatow]

What did you think when you first realized that this was gonna be a certain portion of the show that it wasn't just funny chats with comics about their road adventures. Like, you didn't see this coming. I would assume that people would open up in this way.

[Marc Maron]

No, but like, when it started happening, I realized that it was fundamentally helping me by forcing me to make the space for that kind of empathy and to sort of like, naturally, like, you know, once I, you know, once you get, if you're with a comic and you're doing the thing and you got that going, that's good. And you can take some good shots and there's certain people whose balls I can bust and they get a kick out of it. But once you enter this other space, my need for connection, you know, stops. And then, you know, after that stops, you know, my empathy builds. So once that space started opening more, it was like, well, this is the real stuff. If we can get to anywhere in this spectrum of sharing vulnerability and engaging with empathy, that's the human stuff that is missing, I think, from a lot of people's interactions, like you said.

[Judd Apatow]

So anything that on some level makes you believe in the universal intelligence or spirituality or, or God, that somebody like you that was struggling with issues of empathy or self involvement and somehow you're drawn to do a show that has conversations with people that forces you to learn all these lessons and changes you while helping other people. Yeah, people are presented with these opportunities and they can take them or not to learn and grow and get over there.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know if it implies universal intelligence.

[Judd Apatow]

Intelligence, because why you gotta fight universal intelligence? Just say that's what it is. This is your next lesson. I'm gonna teach it to you.

[Marc Maron]

No, I, I, I do, I, I'm not gonna deny that there's universal intelligence, but I'm also not gonna deny that humans, either collectively or on an individual level, can push back on that and become monsters. So, you know, honoring the universal intelligence, or if you want to call it God, you know, honoring God, you know, finding the humility in whatever God you choose is, you know, it's, it requires a vigilance and it requires a connection. And, you know, if this, if this exists as universal intelligence, that doesn't guarantee that humanity is going to be decent or that humanity is not going to fuck itself by pushing back on that or misinterpreting it and using it for evil means.

[Judd Apatow]

So this is all in your special.

[Marc Maron]

Different way it's suggested in the special. This might be more in one of the past specials, but no, I agree with you. But I do think that In a culture that is divisive to the point where it's not even group divisive. It's divisive on an individual level because of the way we take in information that these stories that elevate the human experience and the humanity of it and the humility of it. You know, it's like food, dude. And it's food that is not readily available as much as it used to be.

[Judd Apatow]

Okay, I'm gonna put on a clip.

[Marc Maron]

Something funny of Robin Williams. Oh, boy.

[Judd Apatow]

Talking about suicide. Great. But funny.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, of course.

[Judd Apatow]

But very, very, very funny. But I think one of the best of all of the interviews that you did, so.

[Marc Maron]

But when before you had the heart problem. I mean, you don't seem to be someone who's, like, morbidly fascinated or hung up on death.

[Robin Williams]

No, I mean, that's weird. I mean, when I was drinking, there was only one time, even for a moment, where I thought life, right? And I went, like. Then even my conscious brain went. Did you honestly just say, fuck life? You know, you have a pretty good life as it is right now. Have you noticed the two houses? Yes. Have you noticed the. The girlfriend?

[Marc Maron]

Yes.

[Robin Williams]

Have you noticed the. You know, things are pretty good, even though you may not be working right now? Yes. Okay, let's put the suicide over here on discussable. Let's leave that over here in the discussion area. We'll talk about that. Do. First of all, you don't have the balls to do it. I'm not going to say it out loud. I mean, have you thought about buying a gun?

[Marc Maron]

No.

[Robin Williams]

What were you going to do? Like cut your wrist with a water pick, maybe? So that's erosion. What are you thinking about that? So can I put this over here in the what the fuck category? Yes, let's put that over here. What the. Because can I ask you what you're doing right now? You're sitting naked in a hotel room with a bottle of Jack Daniels? Yes. Is this maybe influencing your decision? Possibly. Okay, we're gonna put that over here. And tomorrow morning. And who's that in the bed there? I don't know. Okay, well, don't discuss this with her because she may tweet it. Okay. This may not be good. Let's put that over here in the what the category. We're gonna put that over here. Possibly for therapy, if you want to talk about that in therapy or maybe a podcast two years from now. You want to talk about it in the podcast? No, I feel safe. You're talking about in a podcast. I Know who is this? It's your conscience, asshole. Oh, okay. So have you ever thought about it, Simpson?

[Marc Maron]

No.

[Robin Williams]

During the surgery, were you thinking about death? No.

[Marc Maron]

Why?

[Robin Williams]

Because you just were thinking, everything's going to be fine. Was that your mother talking? Maybe she was a Christian Scientist who had plastic surgery.

[Gallagher]

Wow.

[Robin Williams]

Is that a mixed message? Yeah, that is. Okay, well, we're gonna go back to the podcast now because Mark's sitting here. But we're talking now. It's gonna be. I know it feel like golf commentary, but, you know, look, Tiger's back, Tiger's playing, Tiger's doing well. I was hoping that some of the tweets would have golf metaphors, like, you know, choke up rather than choke, or like, you know, I'm going to hold you down and putt from the rough. No, you didn't say that. You know, it's all good.

[Barack Obama]

We're back.

[Marc Maron]

Thank you. That was wonderful. Thank you. It's a nice interval. A nice interval about discussions of death.

[Robin Williams]

It's very freeing.

[Marc Maron]

Thank you. Wow, Man, I haven't heard that since it happened. So what's amazing about that is you get his whole life story, you get his weird improvisational genius, and you get a real sort of sense of struggle. And it's like no matter what anyone said about that guy repeating riffs or hackiness or whatever, I mean, that is the genius in that little piece. Cause I could see him doing that on stage and that his innate need to find a funny line. I mean, who's that next to you? I don't know. I mean, that. Where does that. To have that in the moment, you know, because he was going through it like one of the reasons I did that interview, you know, and his death, you know, in light of that, I think has to be separated for the intentions. His struggle with not wanting to live in the midst of alcoholic self pity is different than making a choice in relation to a chronic debilitating disease.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, he had Lewy Body dementia. And so it wasn't really about depression. It was somebody who was.

[Marc Maron]

Didn't want to live like themselves. Yes. And I think that however you feel like that about that, that the choice is different than to have a bad night and make the mistake of killing yourself, you know, is obviously something thought through. And for reasons that even if you're morally uncomfortable with it, it's understandable. Yeah. So. But the reason I did that interview was interesting because it was really like, you know, you gotta love Robin. And, you know, even with all within our community that sort of. Each stole Jokes or he's hacky or whatever. When I'd hear young comics, you know, diminish, you know, his stature, you know, there was always part of me that's like, all right, even my personal feelings aside, you know, I don't follow everything Robin does, but he has done everything that you want to do brilliantly. Like, you know, he. You know, he was an inspired comic, a singular voice. He was, you know, the center of a hit television show that honored his voice. He had a range that enabled to do, you know, tons of. Of movies. Did he win an Academy Award for goodwill hunting? Yeah. So, like. And you're going to sit here and go, like, n. He's a thief and a hack. It's like, go yourself. So part of my intention was to. To elevate him with a new generation of comics.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, I was watching the documentary about him on hbo.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Literally last night. The amount of incredibly brilliant jokes is ridiculously high.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

You know, I think that he's underrated in a giant way.

[Marc Maron]

That's what. That was, what drove me, you know what I mean? That it was like, who the fuck are you to, like, take any shots at this guy? You know? And God knows, when I was younger, you know, the joke stealing thing, you know, it has an impact or whatever. He just sent checks. It's like. But I had a moment with him up at the Throckmorton after he saw me at a show where I saw it happen. There are. There are guys that just have a certain. It's not. I'm not being an apologist for it, but it was funny because he watched the whole show. I was on stage and he was up in the. You couldn't see him. He was in a balcony seat. And anytime a joke would just not do quite well, I'd hear, oh.

[Judd Apatow]

He was there for you.

[Marc Maron]

But I also knew on some level he wanted me to bring him in. You know what I mean?

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because that's just the way he was. But I couldn't handle that. That. But after the show, we're backstage and he's talking to me, and he's doing that bit I used to do about the demon, the tired demon, you know, like, you know, it used to be like, let's go out and get some booze and pussy and, you know, whatever. And now it's sort of like, oh, that's ice cream. And he. He started to paraphrase it to me to my face, and then kind of run with it, make it better. Right. And I'm like, that's how it happens, you know, it's just one next step to where he thought of it. And it's, it's not necessarily forgivable, but I get it, you know, and it happens, and that's just the way it is.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, I, I, I, I don't think I made it such a soft spot. I'm sure he did, but I, I, you know, I have such a soft spot for him because my first job was working for Comic Relief.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

So when I was 18, I would watch the rehearsals. I was just a PA. Yeah. I just got to watch him from a distance for many years.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Just how kind he was.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Oh, great guy.

[Judd Apatow]

How brilliant. And, and, and just a special person. And when he passed, someone said, you know, we all took him for granted because he was such a joy machine for so long, so consistently that people didn't appreciate it because it was just.

[Marc Maron]

He was always there, a constant. Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Doing his thing. I'll switch to music for a moment. Okay. Because I know how much you love music. And one of the great interviews you did was with Bruce Springsteen 16. And I think one of the reasons why it was so strong was I don't think he is one of your favorites of all time. He's not your Rolling Stones.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Judd Apatow]

And as a result, you were very, like, loose and real and you had a very intimate conversation about depression and fathers. And I, I think it's one of the best interviews he's ever done because he was having a, a riot with you and it was like people discovering each other.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. He, he, I, you know, I got him engaged, you know, with me, which was, you know, because he's a guy whose public Persona is like, yeah, me and the boy. You know, it's, it, it's very dug in and pretty broad. Like, you know, he can put on the Bruce show, you know, in conversation. He, I think after this podcast, something shifted in him. I'm not going to take responsibility for it. But then, you know, comes the one person show comes, you know, but before that, before this interview, there was not, that was not what was happening. And again, I'm not taking responsibility for it, but I did. It might have. It probably was the book, you know, going out on the road and reading pieces. That book that is very sort of in depth, candid, and really shows his flaws, shows the family that he came from. You know, it's relentless and kind of brutal, but I, I, I loved. There's a moment I always talk about from that interview that was just the best, where you Know, he didn't know me. You know, the publicist set it up. And I'm at his house. It's Christmas week, and we're in Jersey, me and Brendan, and we're waiting in this separate building that's like a, you know, studio. And, you know, this. Motorcycles are there, equipment, guitars and stuff. You know, it's a nice big space. And we're just waiting. I got my little Zoom over there, and I just see him walking down from the big house, you know, little Bruce. And he's walking. He's got his book. Because I think he's. He's used to, like, you know, you want to read some of it? And I'm like, he has no. Yeah, it was a moment. I. He has no idea what he's getting into. And I just started the way I usually start. I. I'm sure it's on there. I. I paraphrase myself, because I could just listen to what I exactly say. But I remember he comes in, he sits down, you know, with that Bruce kind of weight, you know, like, who are you? You know, like. But it was. So I said, so, what's going on up at the house? A lot of craziness. Christmas, cooking, presents. He's like, correct. And I'm like, I want to talk to that Bruce, whoever that Bruce was. We gotta go there, you know? And a year or two later, I found, you know, Tal Wilkenfeld, right, The bass player, the prodigy who plays with all these guys. And apparently, she was in conversation, she was talking to Bruce candidly about doing a press tour for her record. And he said, well, when you do interviews, you just. You tell them what you want to tell them. You don't have to answer their question. You take control of it. You tell them what you want to tell them. You guide it. And she goes, oh, that's good advice, because my friend Mark Maron interviewed you, and he said he pushed.

[Judd Apatow]

He got it out of him. Yeah, well, let's take a little listen.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, you talk a little bit about boundaries in the book, but, you know, what you had to do in your mind was sort of build the wall. Yes, I built. I built quite a few of them. Yeah. Yeah. You know, just to protect this other part which leads to this thing, you know, I do stand up, and I've been doing it for years. And there was something I identified with in the book, which was, for some reason, and this is me now, and maybe you can help me. Maybe you already are, but I can open up in front of a crowd. Yeah. Like, In. In, like. And put it all out there. Well, that's easy to do, I guess, for. If you're that kind of person. Correct. Right. But like, when I get home or I'm in a relationship, you know, I'm like, what do you. What do you want? What do you. What. What. What. What's happening? Well, there's certain kinds of people, you know, that only feel at home in a crowd and performing for them. You have control, number one. You have tremendous control. Tremendous control. Everybody's listening to you. Isn't that great? But, you know. But what about those times, though, you know, like, you know, I don't know if you ever did it, but, like. Like, it seems like that you really kind of had a practical way of addressing fear, you know, heading into things. Like, you didn't want it. I have to assume it was there, but somehow. Right, but did you ever have those nights where, you know, you, you, you. That one place where you have control, you go up and it's like, listen, I mean, I know you talk about one gig in London. Yeah, of course. But your desperation has to be greater than your fear. You know, your desperation, your hunger, your desires, your ego, your ambition has to be greater than your fear of complete humiliation. And so. So as long as you have. As long as you have that equation correctly balanced, you're going out there, my friend, no matter what happens, because you have to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like. It's funny, though, because, like, there was an interesting realization that you had, and I assume a lot of this stuff in the book, it's you thinking about this stuff. Like, I have to assume that some of the stuff you write in the book about the past is you now going like, oh, yeah, well, now that I know this, of course that's what I was doing. Of course. But back then you're like, who knows? Yeah, I'm just going. All of this stuff is inside me, right. Working. It's magic. Yeah. And I'm just following it and I'm stumbling out on stage because I have to. I don't. I'm not sure why I have to at the time. And then I'm just, you know, exploding and letting things take their course. But those nights where it's like that you didn't get the love you needed out there, that's bad, because that means. Yeah, there ain't no love nowhere. That's why those nights are bad. If you squeezed all the rest out of your. Out of your daily life, and then you're not getting it there There ain't no love nowhere, my friend. It's a lonely world when that happens. And you went through months like that? Well, sure. I mean, now, most of the time, you know, not about the crowds, but where you take. You were out in the exile, in a way, you know, doing that for years, you know, Years and years, you know, in my real life. Yeah. You know. Yeah. But, you know, I always fell back on my pretend life, where I got to pretend I was Bruce Springsteen and. And I always had that to fall back on for three or four hours a night, you know. Right, right. Yeah. When things get real dark, it's sort of like, let's do the show. Yeah. At least that's something that I know where the fuck I am. Right. Yeah. That's your place. I'm safe there. I know what's going on. I know what's expected of me. I have no problem busting my ass to deliver it. And at the end of the evening, I can go home and put my head to sleep on my pillow in a short moment of peace. I did it. I did it. And then you wake up and hell starts all over again. But, holy fuck, I'm pretty good at this.

[Judd Apatow]

Why are you stopping? You're gonna keep it going after. After this episode. But I did go through, you know, the. The list of all the episodes. Yeah, you really did get almost everybody.

[Marc Maron]

I know.

[Judd Apatow]

And so I. I. When I went through it, I thought I. I mean, obviously, I was one of the people who was like, you definitely shouldn't stop doing it. Just do it less. But when I went through the names, there is a sense that it is completed. And also, there is an arc to you telling your story through all the people from the Comedy Store that you interviewed and working through things. And there does seem to be a sense of the circle has closed.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I believe that. But that bruising was like. You know, it's kind of amazing because I don't listen to these, but, you know, we were locked in. He was getting laughs. He felt comfortable. You know, he was like, you know, he was exploring it in a different way than he did in the book. And there was another one when I was telling him some story about myself about, you know, never feeling like it's quite enough, and he's like, of course you don't like. You know, that there was this, you know, he was in. And I just did a small part in that movie, and it was kind of great, you know, because a very small part. And I was kind of like, oh, my God, I got Nothing to do in this movie. But he and Landau were in the video village the whole time.

[Judd Apatow]

And you're the producer.

[Marc Maron]

No, I'm just an engineer.

[Judd Apatow]

You're a sound engineer.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

So you're acting in Springsteen's at the monitor.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was very helpful, I think, for Jeremy Strong to have Landau there. Cause he's so meticulous. So if he had a check of behavior or something, he could go. But for me, you know, cut. And I could go out there and. Because I had that experience, he said, yay. You know. You know, we could sit and talk about guitars. And it's a. It was. It's an amazing thing because, you know, out of all these guys, you know, the thing that becomes really kind of enlightening is that you do talk to them as people, and they are just people. But they can do this amazing thing, like the. You know, it's like magic. How the fuck do you do. I still can't answer that.

[Judd Apatow]

He's just like us. He could just go in a room and write. Candy's room.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But perform it for four hours to sort of hold that space for that many people. And, you know, and it's. No matter how you talk about them, it doesn't explain that. That's the fucking gift. You can't explain that. Why is Keith Richards like Keith Richards? I still watch Keith Richards on stage, you know, old stuff, new stuff with a guitar. And I'm like. And there's, like 30,000 people there, and they're just, like, doing it. How the fuck do you do that? You know? And it's not the same with comics, you know? Like, I always think when comics are playing, like, arenas, they're doing something other than what I think standup is.

[Judd Apatow]

You mean doing arena shows is different than being in a club?

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, just doing, like, you know, that kind of, like, down and dirty, you know, even. Even a showroom, an arena thing is. Has different requirements. I don't understand why people go to see comedy in arenas, really. Because you have to. You know, you kind of. You have to change your timing. You know, your decisions are all based on punchlines that are so solid that you have time to wait for them. And, you know, it's just not. The intimacy is not there, and I kind of thrive on that.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah. Whenever I'm around people, you know, who've achieved like that, I feel like people like him have evolved to a place where the work is a giving gesture. It's not just the work. Yeah. He feels like he's on a. On a long journey with his audience, filling them in about his life.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Being an avatar for their experiences. And at some point, it just becomes this other thing. And I do think in comedy, in your work, you know, when you share your experiences, you know, with your dad, what's happening with your family, that. That's the comedian's version of sharing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And also the podcast, the evolution of that. But also, like, there's something magic about music that, you know, there's no analog for that in comedy in that, you know, people, you know, spend their life with those songs and those songs grow with them, and they represent different points in their life. And sometimes, you know, music that you listen to as a younger person and you listen to it as an older person, it continues to evolve and grow with you, and that's just fucking magic. Who the hell knows what that is?

[Judd Apatow]

But it's also easier because you do get to play your greatest hit. So a comedian, every couple of years, has to start over. And how fun would it be if you had your born to run?

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Judd Apatow]

And you could enjoy this period of your life just having the, you know, the result of your entire life's work.

[Marc Maron]

And you just do it.

[Judd Apatow]

And the crowd is just enraptured about it. With a comedian, like, I gotta write a whole new thing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I know, I know. And also with. But there is something to be said about jokes, because jokes do last as long as anything else, if not longer than music. I mean, there are jokes that you enjoy telling because you know, you know how to do it. And they could be old as fuck. Like, you know, if someone asks you what's your favorite old joke? You have one and you tell it, and it's like, wow, that thing's got life. It's always gonna have life.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, the old timers used to keep the same act their entire career well.

[Marc Maron]

So they were able to do it.

[Judd Apatow]

So maybe we all made a mistake by thinking we needed to keep writing the set. Okay, we're gonna switch to a lighter, lighter story. You know, I tend to go heavier.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

And this is a clip from the great Molly Shannon.

[Molly Shannon]

I hopped a plane when I was 12. We told my dad, me and my friend Anne, we're like, we're gonna hop a plane to New York. And he was like. He dared us.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Molly Shannon]

So we.

[Marc Maron]

How old were you?

[Molly Shannon]

We were like, 12.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, good. That's good.

[Molly Shannon]

We went to the airport and we had ballet outfits on, and we put our hair in buns, and we wanted to look really innocent. And this Was again when flying was really easy, you didn't need your ticket to get through.

[Marc Maron]

Apparently you didn't need an adult either.

[Molly Shannon]

And we told my dad and we were just like. We saw there were two flights, we were either gonna go to San Francisco or New York. And we thought, oh, let's go to the New York, it's leaving early. So we went, we said to the stewardess, we just want to say goodbye to my sister. Can we go on the plane? And she was like, sure. And then she led us on and it was a really empty flight because it was out of Cleveland, Ohio. And we sat back there and then all of a sudden you just hear like, the plane takes off.

[Marc Maron]

We were like.

[Molly Shannon]

And we had like a little ballet outfits and buns. And I was like, hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.

[Marc Maron]

Blessed art thou am I, sworn and.

[Molly Shannon]

Blessed the fruit of life in Jesus.

[Marc Maron]

Holy Mary, Mother God, pray for sinners now the hour.

[Molly Shannon]

And then the stewardess that had given us permission to. To go say goodbye bye to my sister came by to ask if we wanted snacks or beverages. And she was like, can I get you ladies something to eat? She looked like, she was like, oh, motherfucker. You know, so she. So we wonder if it going to get in trouble. But she ended up not telling anyone. And then when we landed in New York City, she was like, bye ladies, have a nice trip.

[Marc Maron]

I, I just like, I'm. It's a, it's such an exciting story. But the irresponsibility of all the adults in this story is somehow undermining my appreciation of it. You were 12 year old girls in ballet outfits and everybody's sort of like, have a good time. What world was that?

[Molly Shannon]

It was a crazy world.

[Marc Maron]

What did you do in New York? And now you're gonna say we got drunk and we went to a well again.

[Molly Shannon]

Because I had a crazy childhood. We called my dad. We were like, we did it. And he was like, oh God, Molly. Oh geez. Well, try to. So basically he couldn't.

[Marc Maron]

Try to what? He didn't know what to do.

[Molly Shannon]

He said, try to see if you could stay. Go find a hotel that you could stay in. Me and Mary, my sister will come meet you, we'll drive there. So basically we were like, all right, we'll try to find a hotel. But he was kind of excited because he liked crazy stuff. But basically we didn't have that much. We just had our ballet bags and a little bit of cash. So we went to a diner and we dined in Dash. And we stole things. We were like little con artists.

[Marc Maron]

Wait, did you actually make it to the city?

[Molly Shannon]

We made it to the city. We just asked people. I was like, how do you get to Rockefeller Center? Because I just seen tv, and you're.

[Marc Maron]

Still in your ballet outfit.

[Molly Shannon]

Ballet outfit?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Molly Shannon]

Really?

[Marc Maron]

No. Nobody said, are you girls lost? Nothing like that?

[Molly Shannon]

No, nothing.

[Marc Maron]

They went to a bar and they got drank up. Ladies. Yeah.

[Molly Shannon]

Yeah. So we did try to go to hotels, and. And my dad would call and ask, could they just stay there till we get there? And none of the hotels wanted to be responsible.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my God.

[Molly Shannon]

So he was like. He was like, all right, you got to come home. And he was like, but I'm not paying for it, so try to hop on one on the way back.

[Marc Maron]

So we.

[Molly Shannon]

So we tried to hop on many planes, but it was. The flights were also crowded.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Molly Shannon]

So we ended up having to have him pay for it, and he made us pay for him, pay it all back with our babysitting money.

[Marc Maron]

That was the big punishment. Yeah.

[Molly Shannon]

There was no punishment.

[Marc Maron]

No, I know. I mean, clearly. Was there any sort of, like, oh, you survived. I was just testing you.

[Molly Shannon]

He loved that kind of stuff. Like I said, he was wild. He used to, in his drinking days, he would, you know, go to bars, and if somebody didn't let him in, he'd be like, damn it. You know, he'd go. Go into the bar and knock all the glasses down. He was like a kind of guy who could maybe get arrested. Like, it was crazy.

[Marc Maron]

I love the. The.

[Barack Obama]

The.

[Marc Maron]

The sort of strange, nostalgic excitement you have for. For this borderline.

[Molly Shannon]

Yeah, it was complicated.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, now you're gonna say that. Yeah. There's just one story that's complicated. Not.

[Molly Shannon]

But he was also a very loving parent. I think it's complicated. He was also really supportive and kind of made me feel like I could do anything. And so in that way, it felt really free and wild. But then in other ways, I had to learn the rules of, like, how regular people live.

[Marc Maron]

From other people.

[Molly Shannon]

Yeah, from other people.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Molly Shannon]

Like professionals. Like, people you pay. You know what I mean?

[Marc Maron]

I do know what you mean. I have them in my life. Wow.

[Judd Apatow]

You had a lot of live ones.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

In the beginning, you stopped doing them.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Did you enjoy doing the. The live versions?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, of course. You know, because I think I'm even better at it now of, like, me having the freedom of mind to just, you know, be funny and be. Because I'm. I. I can be pretty quick, and I. I know how to get laughs. But the live ones are great because it was really about that we knew going in that, you know, this is going to be an entertaining show and you want to do it, so you elevate the guest and then, you know, kind of carry it along with being funny. And there were panels during those live ones that were great. I remember I was never more thrilled than to have Ira Glass and Artie Lang on the same panel. I thought I had done something miraculous.

[Judd Apatow]

Do you ever wish that you did do an official TV talk show or.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. I mean, I, you know, I did a pilot for one after Short Attention Span Theater, you know, that, you know, before the Daily show, which ended up being the show that became that. But I did a sort of a straight sit down talk show pilot. And I remember the guests were Chappelle, very young Chappelle, and Stephen Weber. You know, we did two episodes. I think it was, you know, called the Marc Maron Project. But it was straight up, you know, sit and talk. And I don't know if I had the chop send, you know, but I certainly do now that they're no longer viable or going to be in existence much longer.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, those formats didn't allow for what you did.

[Marc Maron]

No, none of them did. You know, even when people talk about long form, people like Dick Cavett or somebody, I mean, the closest one would be like a Charlie Rose situation, but that's not an audience. And that, you know, I just assume do this, but, but I think there was a way it was sort of more like what Letterman did on Netflix, but he had, you know, the gravitas of being Letterman.

[Judd Apatow]

And do you. Are you satisfied with the path that revealed itself?

[Marc Maron]

Totally, you know, totally. Because we dictated it, you know, me and Brendan. And there's something about not being beholden to cameras or that timing or the, you know, the sort of elevated atmosphere of being on camera and then being on camera in front of an audience that I think that the intimacy that gets created here is something unique. And it's unique even more so than, you know, say, Terry Gross, who's the best, but she does a different thing. And even when I recently talked to her a couple weeks ago, there was something more candid about her approach with me. But I was never doing that kind of interview. So once it started to unfold that I was doing something that didn't really exist in any space with some consistency, I, I sort of had a, a pride in it and, and accepted it. You know, initially I was, I kind of always thought it was Gonna, you know, diminish my standup. And so it was really kind of like, that's part of my interrupting style, was like, no, I'm a comic, and I, you know, I gotta be in here. Yeah, this is about me, you know, And. But that. That was different.

[Judd Apatow]

And now all the podcasts are switching to video. I mean, when will they all start getting an audience? Will it all reverse itself?

[Marc Maron]

I don't know how it works, but I have noticed that because of the contraction in mainstream show business and the ability for people to sort of build their own separate show businesses, that you get these bubble audiences. Some of them are huge, and some of them aren't as huge. But you do start to realize, and I'm sure you do as well, that the quality is. It lowers the bar tremendously to what a show looks like. And sadly, I think people will just adapt to that and not really take into mind just how many talented people and what goes into making a good talk show. Like, I think they're just dealing with, like, this is enough. What else do we need? And so that whole sort of context of what these shows were, which were big, beautiful show business, you know, they just don't give a fuck. And you're just getting, you know, sort of afternoon radio of some form or another. But the audience has shifted, and they just don't care because everything is disposable and fleeting and segmented. So, you know, all that show business built has, you know, been overshadowed by amateurs. And people are fine with that.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, it is, you know, like, kind of, you know, on one level, there's, you know, a lot of voices are allowed in, but at some point, you need the lunatics who want to really take it to the next level creatively.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

And to not just do the simple version of it. The thing that we all loved about Letterman or Conan was.

[Marc Maron]

Or Larry Sanders.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah. That they just. They grinded to find ways to do it the way no one had ever done it. And we're not really seeing that yet. Although it could happen where someone goes, well, what else can you do here? It's so cheap to do it. What other kind of.

[Marc Maron]

I haven't seen much of that.

[Judd Apatow]

What can you do?

[Marc Maron]

I haven't seen much of that at all lately. Except for Nathan Fielder, where it's just sort of like, I don't even know what that is, but it's something.

[Judd Apatow]

He's going deep in a way. We think we're going deep. We're not even close.

[Marc Maron]

But using the sort of tools of money and Network support to execute a vision that is truly unique is rare. I do think that what undermines the possibility of what you're talking about is just laziness and the need to chase content generation.

[Judd Apatow]

And it's hard. It's really hard.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Hard work. You know, we did 13 episodes of the Ben Stiller show back in the, in the day, and I still stay. That was the, the hardest six months of my life.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

I mean, we would be shooting all day, going to the sound mix at one o' clock in the morning.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Trying to write these things. And it was as exhausting like where you had nothing left. But it was fun.

[Marc Maron]

But there was a drive of a collective to try to do something new and great. Like, I don't know if that exists among at least 80 to 90% of what's being generated out there outside the umbrella of mainstream show business. So I don't know.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, one super original voice who had a great show called Lady Dynamite and you had her on a bunch of times was the great Maria Bamford, who I'm working on a documentary about.

[Maria Bamford]

You know, like, I had a relationship where a person was. I was frightened. I started to get frightened of him, of him. And, and friends and family said, hey, wow, what's. Are you okay? And stuff like that.

[Marc Maron]

So then.

[Maria Bamford]

But in, in that, you know, the element, you know, of control is like, yeah. I, I think I kept thinking, oh, oh, well, I want to have. I'm gonna fix it. Which is a totally good. Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna either do the right thing so the person won't have. Get enraged anymore, which was.

[Marc Maron]

He was a rager. Yeah.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah. Where I couldn't, I couldn't do the right thing. I couldn't figure out all the things that I needed to do to, to, to so it wouldn't happen again, but it would always keep happening. And then it was like, well, you know what? And I learned to do. I got better with it where I wouldn't react as much to it and I would just kind of be like, oh, this person is.

[Marc Maron]

You tried to detach.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, detach with love. You know, going like, you know, just repeating back what they said, saying, I hear this is what you're saying. And, and. But then it is so upsetting over time that it's like, you know, I, I gotta let, let him go because I'm, I'm feeling, feeling so bad. But, but also to say that that person is wonderful, like, has incredibly wonderful qualities and like, and, but I felt like I wasn't helping anymore. Like, I was starting.

[Marc Maron]

And also you felt probably it's emotional abuse.

[Maria Bamford]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And you start to lose touch with yourself.

[Maria Bamford]

Lose touch yourself. And. And also I felt like my own possibility of me getting abuse, you know, of me going, you know, and it's like, oh, God, you know, like, I. Yeah. So I. And I think some element of it was like that whole idea of, I'm gonna help somebody.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's. That's my problem. I was the guy that would walk into an uncontrollable rage and, you know, not stop until my ex. Wife was crying. And then I'd feel bad and then I'd apologize. But it doesn't go away. After a certain point in time, it doesn't go away.

[Maria Bamford]

And I. For what? I. I mean, I've read a bunch of books on it now.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, maybe you can help me.

[Maria Bamford]

Well, yeah, my mom is a. It works for a domestic violence center. And, you know, domestic violence. I think what I've read is that. And my boyfriend at the time, he. His dad had been physically abused. As soon he had seen physically physical abuse. And I think on some level equating emotional or physical abuse with intimacy also, they said, you know, so that if I love this person on a subconscious level, this is what's gonna go down and they can handle my rage, you know, if they love me.

[Marc Maron]

Huh.

[Maria Bamford]

And then, you know, was he physically abusive? One occasion. One occasion.

[Marc Maron]

That was it.

[Maria Bamford]

No, no, no, it wasn't actually. Which is super sad. You know, I was like. And. And actually then it was very classic violence where it was like, denied that he did it. Said, oh, that wasn't me. I was like, well, oh, you know, that whole, like, gaslighting, like, oh, you're crazy. You know, like. And I was like, oh, wow, okay.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And okay, quietly. Okay, I get it. And go in the other room.

[Maria Bamford]

No, no, but I. I did get that because. Because you love the person, right? You know, you love the person and you do respect them on a lot of levels. But, you know, again, nobody is all bad or all good.

[Marc Maron]

Like, that's right.

[Maria Bamford]

Lovely, loving, super loving person. We had a lot of good times too. So it's. It's confusing.

[Marc Maron]

I think, in fact, I did that while I was driving. It's always interesting.

[Judd Apatow]

That's the only driving one you did? No, there's another one.

[Marc Maron]

There was one with Pepitone. And there. There's a couple intros I did in the car. The intro to Robin I think might have been in the car because I did it in real time driving to his house.

[Judd Apatow]

But you were talking on another show that the audience that you have for this show.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

You know that in addition to being entertained, there are a lot of people that, you know, Maria, something like Maria opening up about this might help them look for the help they need to deal with their issues. And a lot of people dealt with their sobriety as a result of you talking about yours and a lot of people talking about how they got sober.

[Marc Maron]

I just, well, totally. I didn't expect that. And it's always very heartening. A lot of emails about helping people get sober, helping people not kill themselves, learning about things that they didn't know other people had or experienced. It's been a huge part of the impact of the show. But I just fucking love her. Like I can't say enough.

[Judd Apatow]

She's the funniest.

[Marc Maron]

Totally. And I say it anytime anyone asks me who's the funniest comedian, I'm like, seriously, Maria Bamford. There is no one funnier than that.

[Judd Apatow]

Go on Spotify and just do a random playlist of Maria Bamford and have your mind blown.

[Marc Maron]

I remember a couple years ago, I hadn't really seen her in years and we were on a co headlining gig for I think the Toronto Comedy Festival and you know, our venue was like out away from everything and it was this old weird venue but we were both doing an hour or whatever. I hadn't seen her in years and I just, both, both nights I'm like, what am I even doing? What's the point?

[Judd Apatow]

Well, the funny thing is we're putting together the documentary now. There's footage of her when she first started and the whole thing was fully formed.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah. Just her way of seeing the world.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And it was like outside of stand up in a way, it kind of bordered on, you know, what you would more classify as performance art. But, but she hammered it out in clubs. She is a stand up and it's just that, you know, the fact that people can dismiss her because like I don't get it. You know, she's weird. It's like you idiots. You know, they're like, you know, she's like Jonathan Winters level.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah, well people, you got a lot of play when you said she would be on your, your Mount Rushmore of comedians.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, totally. Oh yeah, with Jesse. Well, the funny thing is about the impact it has on people. It's a very funny Dice story because you know, despite when anyone thinks of Dice, I, I love him like because, you know, outside of whatever he's known for just him talking is the best. Like, I. I used to. He would come into the. Or this is like, you know, not that long ago, just to, you know, talk about his day. And he does it. He definitely has a way of looking at things. That's funny.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But I'm in the hallway with him. It's not that long ago, and he's telling me, like, yeah, we're going to do the garden. You. I got big things. Always the big things. He's talking to me, and some guy comes up to me. He goes, I'm sorry to interrupt you guys, but, Mark, I was going to email you, and it's just. I'm happy that I'm running into you in person, because I just got to thank you. You know, you got me through. Through a real dark time, and I don't know if I would have gotten through it, you know, if you hadn't been there. And I just really wanted to thank you for that. And I'm like, yeah, sure, I'm glad to help out. And that guy walks away. And Dice goes, I never get that. I get you're the reason I lost my job. You're the reason my wife left me. You're the reason I got kicked out of school.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, I used to see Dice when I was a kid. I was a dishwasher at a comedy club. And like, 1983.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

84. He was just doing impressions back then.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

He was just doing, like, Jerry Lewis, John Travolta.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

So I saw the whole evolution.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Of how it turned into that. But he. He would kill.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Doing. Doing his impressions.

[Marc Maron]

He's got this very, kind of like, alpha Jewish confidence.

[Judd Apatow]

He's so funny right now. Like, the act.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Is pretty amazing. And his Instagram, if you want to see something super weird, just him walking the streets, walking up to people, and really funny.

[Marc Maron]

Are you Mildred? Are you Joanna? Or when he's got Lovett walking around with him.

[Judd Apatow]

Seems like it takes work. He's really. He's really putting in some time.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, let's do one more.

[Judd Apatow]

Okay. Well, you know, one of the reasons to stop is because you. You've gotten all of the white whales of.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Of show business. So I thought I would play one of them.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

A person. No one gets that you got, which is, you know, the legendary. Nobody better. Albert Brooks.

[Marc Maron]

That's great. That moment when the room service comes to the door, he's like, should I just keep talking?

[Barack Obama]

So we get a meeting with Jack Benny on Tuesday. He dies. That Friday, which nobody knew meeting him, but we're sitting in his office and I say to him, so, Mr. Benny, I'm doing a record album. And on this record album, I would love if you would do something, because we're doing this old time radio. And I never got any other word out. My hero says to me, three days before he dies, radio, radio.

[Marc Maron]

That's all I'm remembered for. I've done everything. I've done television, I've done movies. And I'm going, I don't even know you from radio. Oh, my God. No, no, I know that. I know that.

[Barack Obama]

And Harry and I left. I drove home, Mark, with a profound, maybe one of the most profound lessons of my life, which is, you better not hold on to anything.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

Because if the king. If the God of comedy in my mind doesn't even know three days before he dies how important he was, if he's still going.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, you and I get.

[Barack Obama]

It as we get older.

[Marc Maron]

It's happening to me now, okay?

[Barack Obama]

So you just can't go there. If you try to hold on to your life, you're gonna be really sad. You can't do it. It's impossible.

[Judd Apatow]

How was that interviewing Albert?

[Marc Maron]

The best. The funniest thing was he didn't want. He didn't want to come here. He didn't want me to go there. So we're in that hotel, you know, down on Santa Monica, that old, pretty hotel. I forget what it's called. It's almost Victorian looking or kind of deco. And it was just such a thrill, you know, because he, you know, he's just so fucking funny and, you know, such a powerful presence in my mind. I remember it was. I'd been trying to get him for. For years. And there was that moment at Shandling's memorial. Everyone's leaving, and he's wearing that golf hat, and I'm just walking. I just feel these two hands on my shoulders. And he says, let's do it now.

[Judd Apatow]

And is that how it happened?

[Marc Maron]

No, that took years more years later. Yeah. I just was so thrilled because he's one of those guys where it's so effortlessly funny, it's so wired into him and. And, you know, he can't help it. Even if he's not trying, if you love him, it's just the whole thing's going to be the greatest.

[Judd Apatow]

Who are the other ones that you didn't get? You're trying to get Adam Sandler.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I. But. But of that generation, you know, I. I don't know. Like, you know, I'm sure there's people I. I forget. Forgotten. There were some old timers that I would have liked to. To have done.

[Judd Apatow]

Mike Nichols would have been good.

[Marc Maron]

That would have been good. Yeah. And like Shecky Green, there was an effort to do that, but, you know, we had an exchange, me and Shecky, and that was kind of brutal.

[Judd Apatow]

But you try to get Elaine May.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I. I did. I think I did try to get Elaine May, didn't I?

[Judd Apatow]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Marc Maron]

Is she still around?

[Judd Apatow]

She's around.

[Marc Maron]

I. I wonder why that that hasn't happened. Her daughter's amazing.

[Judd Apatow]

Oh, yeah. No, I was very proud of the fact that I got to guest edit an issue of Vanity Fair, and they let me pitch articles, and I said, what about an interview with Nichols in May? And they did pull it off.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

And it was the last interview that they did.

[Marc Maron]

How is that?

[Judd Apatow]

And they hadn't done one in, like, 20, 30 years. And it's just a great. Oh, that's great article. Well, the other person that you interviewed and did one of the great interviews with was Garry Shandling.

[Marc Maron]

I started to box about 11 years ago. Right. Just started the box. And the. And the reason is twofold, is one is out of my comfort zone completely. Never was a kid who got into fights. And so the idea of really being in a ring where someone's gonna start throwing punches, and then the really main reason. The other one is that you don't have time to think, so it becomes completely intuitive. Someone's throwing a punch, you have to. To counter or you move or you get hit, step back or you move in or. Right. But you can't think about it. And when you land a punch, you can't think about it. Are you getting good at it? Well, I'm sure getting better than I was. Yeah. Which is better than getting worse. Do you wear headgear or do you. I do. I wear. I wear headgear that goes from my head down to my knees. It's quite a long. It's the biggest one they've ever seen. It's weird because hearing these back again in the moment, I don't realize how, you know, close. They're like. These are genuine tones. You know, he's speaking as himself. There's not, you know, he's not. There's not public talk. And it seems to happen a lot because, I mean, you know him, he was definitely, you know, not, you know, he was just all there. Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah. He could be guarded.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

In A lot of situations.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

But when he opened up, he would really open up.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah. And it got pretty good there. And again, because as much as I love him, you know, I wasn't dug in to. To Shanley as like one of my guys necessarily. So when that took that spiritual turn where he got comfortable and started to engage with me or whatever my situation was, it was pretty. Is exciting and, And I know he's like one of the funniest guys ever, but it took me a long time to really get it.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah, yeah, it was, it's. It's a unique person who's, you know, who's struggling.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

And he's the funniest, but he's also struggling. And you never know what you're gonna get with him.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

One day you might get like the gregarious version and another day he might be interested.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Judd Apatow]

And so it was just. Yeah, he was on a ride. I feel like Gary being gone really left for me like the biggest hole where all the time you're like, ah, man, you know, we feel his absence.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

All the time.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. He was so good and so sweet and, and, and wise, you know, and the, the, the struggle that he was on to make himself whole or self accepting or any of that was so earnest and vigilant, you know, like, this has got to work. You know, whatever he landed on spiritually, it's like, has gotta work.

[Judd Apatow]

Some of the stories that you told that. I remember one was you telling the long Sam kiss and.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

What made you leave town?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I did that recently. Yeah, that's a good one. You pissed. I pissed on your bed.

[Judd Apatow]

Baron, you had a period where you had a lot of Comedy Store people on. You had Jimmy Schubert.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Who's really painted a picture of what, what that place was like.

[Marc Maron]

So funny. The first time I did mushrooms was with you. We had a good day. That's right.

[Judd Apatow]

We had a great day.

[Marc Maron]

And we started doing them. I remember I never done mushrooms before. And I was like, oh, man, you're gonna love these, man. You're gonna love it. And Rod's going, all right, man. And we had planned the whole day. Yeah. And I remember we just started getting off, going, oh, this is great. It's great. And then out of nowhere, out of the blue, Sam shows up. Kennison pops in like, pops in like a, like he was like a trip coach. Yeah. Yes. Oh, you guys doing mushrooms? Oh, you're gonna love them, man. He goes now. And he was just like, just as he was saying stuff you were like, time's gonna seem to go by real slow. You pull out a joint and he was great. He goes, now, let's get you. These guys are gonna get off. Yeah, smoke this joint. That's gonna make everything all right. All right, man. Yeah. Yeah. But it was like that. And then. And it was. I mean, I swear, man, we had.

[Judd Apatow]

The best day just laughing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. And then we. Yeah, but we did been like 2 o' clock in the afternoon by that time.

[Judd Apatow]

9 o' clock for when we could go down.

[Marc Maron]

And I forgot that Sam showed up and was actually, you know, kind and giving. Yeah. Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, you know, man, I mean, he.

[Marc Maron]

Was, you know, he definitely understood that world, you know. Yeah, but you're right. I mean, he had. He had his moments of that kind of, you know, behavior. I mean, he. You know, I remember the one moment where he pulled out something that looked like a. Like a jar this big, like a jelly jar with cocaine in it. And in. In a way. And we're standing in one of the rooms at Crestel. He's like, you want to bump? And I'm like, yeah, what do you want me to do? Where. Where should I do it? He said, put your thumb in between your finger. Like that. Yeah. I learned that from the mob. I'm like, okay. I don't even know if I want to know the rest of that story. Yeah, I mean, it was. But I remember you would sit around that table. Oh, yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

And me and you were.

[Marc Maron]

Of all the guys that were up there hanging on me. We would talk about comedy to all hours of the night. What do you think about this? I know Sam explained us a little bit. Burn. I mean, were we better people for it?

[Judd Apatow]

Probably not.

[Marc Maron]

But, I mean, you know, we.

[Judd Apatow]

But we were interested.

[Marc Maron]

We were willing to learn, man, stay up. And how did you come over?

[Judd Apatow]

And then, what do you do for that?

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, that's funny. That was your agenda. Mine was like, what does Satan look like? You know? Yeah. Yeah. I thought he was some sort of black magician, some sort of wizard that had secret wisdom. He was just a douchebag like everybody else. Just a comic. Just a flawed human being with problems.

[Judd Apatow]

Just like the rest of us.

[Marc Maron]

I needed to do that for myself, the Comedy Store stuff, because, you know, I was a young guy and I was kind of out of my mind and on drugs. And once I sort of enmeshed myself with that place in the history, I was haunted by it forever. That it profoundly changed the wiring of my brain, you know, just what it meant what it represented, the history of the place, all the pictures on the wall, you know, being on coke and losing my brain there and, you know, integrating the Comedy Store into some sort of mythic significance. And I really had to talk to all those guys because my relationship with a lot of them was with those pictures on the wall and also just with the idea of them. Like I said to you before we started, I had this weird thing, like, with that book about old movie stars. I didn't like the old movies, but I just look at these faces and. And then realizing that all of comedy came through there, all of modern comedy. It just seemed to be like a. A great template for me to sort of have some, you know, answers about that place and about. About, you know, my place there and about my history. And, you know, and, like, this was like, I've got Mitzi Shore's driver's license. That. Her last driver's license. Because, you know, I did Binder's documentary, and that was just, like, laying on the floor in her office.

[Judd Apatow]

Oh, you talk. You told that story to Letterman.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. I got to show you something. Hold on. This might weird you out.

[Judd Apatow]

I seem to be alone now.

[Marc Maron]

I don't. I don't know why I have this, but I can tell you how I got it. Okay. But. But for some reason, it means a lot to me. This is the driver's license for. Oh, my gosh.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, a crime has been committed here.

[Marc Maron]

This is Mitzi Shore's driver's license. It is, man.

[Judd Apatow]

Mark, how did you. I mean, first of all, why were.

[Marc Maron]

You rifling through her purse? That's right. Here's the thing. You know Binder, Mike. Yep. Peter Shore, Kind of like, I interviewed Binder here. Right. And he was like, I want to talk about the comics. And then I started saying, how could you not want to? This is. That's where you come from. And then he started talking about it, and then it kind of got into his brain, and then Peter Short reeled him in to make a documentary about the place. Right, right, right. Yeah. He reached out to you? Yes, well, he.

[Judd Apatow]

I. I think I'm actually visiting with him tomorrow.

[Marc Maron]

Great. So. So he wanted me to be there when he did. He did a bunch of footage in Mitzi's office, and they were going to go through some stuff. He had permission, and he wanted me to be the guy to be in there with him. And as I was walking out, this driver's license was on the floor. And I'm like, I think I have to have that wow. It feels a little weird and a little wrong, but no, no, now with.

[Judd Apatow]

That explanation, it feels just right.

[Marc Maron]

And Sammy Shore just passed. Yeah. Did you know him, though?

[Judd Apatow]

I must have met him, but by the time I came to California, he.

[Marc Maron]

Was out of that business, right? Yeah, but. Yeah, not out of comedy, but out.

[Judd Apatow]

Of the Comedy Store business, right?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. You lost the store to Mitzi. See, like, for me. Didn't this give you the chills a little bit?

[Judd Apatow]

Yes, absolutely.

[Marc Maron]

First of all, she's very young looking.

[Judd Apatow]

In that, and I only remember her. She was stricken after this time, and I don't remember her looking that hardy. She reminds me of when she was. When I was younger.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Like, she had such a. The whole place had such a hold on my mind when it was so fragile. And it took years to sort of shake that thing, the mythic paranoid thing. And now it's just, like, the only place. I work in la, and I'm so happy to be comfortable there.

[Judd Apatow]

When you're young, it's also about that they're the gatekeepers of your dream. And so there's this place and everyone wants to do the thing you want to do. Most of them are better because they've just been doing it longer. And there's this one person that gets to decide if you're allowed to do it. And I didn't have the version where I was on drugs for part of it, but the pressure to go, can I belong here? Can I earn it? Can I be better than a lot of these people to climb to the next level? That pressure. And then it's also that youthful madness that it might be possible to pull it off.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I don't know if I had that climbing thing or even the competitive thing, but I did know that was kind of lost and that for some reason, you know, being part of that world was very specific. And at the time I was there, or when I came back to L. A in 2002, like, it was just this haunted shithole that nobody wanted to go to. It got to a point where people were like, why would you go to the comedy? Like, it represented some darkness which I always knew was there, and it's necessary for that place to exist. I told Peter Shore recently, I'm like, you know, you got to be careful with that place, because, you know as well as I do, it's very susceptible to charismatic leaders, that a personality can take that place over because she, like, enabled it. And I was there during the Canison and Dice period, you know, which happened kind of back to back. But I just wanted to be. I thought it was an exclusive, amazing community.

[Judd Apatow]

The Comedy Store with the best folks.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah. Man. It got to the point where I was, like, so dug in there and, like, living in her house, the one she owned, and walking down the club in the morning to make coffee and behind the bar and shit. But, like, you know, it would just be that thing where, you know, you'd. I'd be living at that place and be like, hey, Joey Gaynor, there he is. You know, like, who knows Joey Gaynor? You know, it was just like, these were the pictures on the wall. And now I was part of it.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine the addiction part in it. Also, my addiction was just, can I succeed? Workaholism. But I was afraid to be high or drunk because I don't think I felt confident enough in what I was doing that I could be that vulnerable to be out of my head.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I kind of thrived on it because it connected me with this bunch of people that, you know, in retrospect, it's all very dangerous, you know, but this idea that you're at the table, you know, with these wizards who are going to impart something on you, but also very funny and very. It was out of control and weird, but I was all about it.

[Judd Apatow]

But as a way to bond with those people. Because you would do drugs with them.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. And also, you had a secret, you know, to be bouncing around that place as a door guy with coke in your pocket. It's the fucking best.

[Judd Apatow]

And you also. You had Lorne Michaels on the show, which I always thought was a big moment. Cause there were so many episodes where you recounted meeting with Lorne and not getting Weekend Update. And it became so mythic in your mind. And then when you finally talked to Lorne, the fact that Lorne remembered it, but also to him, it's like he's explaining, like, here's how showbiz really works. You don't get that the decision isn't based on what you think it's based on.

[Marc Maron]

Right. I came in here, I waited an hour or so. Tracy Morgan was out there waiting with me. Do you know what day of the week it was where we were in production? Maybe. I wish I remembered that. You know, I decided before I got here. I was smoking a lot of pot at the time, but I thought maybe I shouldn't smoke too much. And I got here, and Tracy Morgan was there. And his hair looked very shiny. This. The hair was in very good shape. Yes. I waited A while. And I was reading a Bruce Wagner book. I remember. And I came in here and you were. Had he been on stage the night that you performed? Who, Tracy? Yeah. I don't know if he was. I mean, I know that we went to Stand Up New York. Right. I remember. Anyways, I come in here. In my recollection, there were books over here. Huh. Was there? It's probably pretty much the same as it was always. Right. Steve Higgins was there. I walk in and you said, how was Conan last night? Did they laugh? Did they laugh at you? It's better when they laugh. That was nice. It was nice. I was scared. And you'd done. And you'd done Conan the night before. Right. Okay. And then I sat down and then you. You did. You used a zoo analogy for comedians. Have you used that before? Monkeys and all that?

[Barack Obama]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah. So that's a regular thing? No, it wasn't regular thing. It was just my sort of beginning to piece together where comedians stood in Hollywood. Right. The lions are scary when you go to the zoo. Yeah. First. First thing you want to see is the lion, because the lion is the king of the jungle. And. And it has its regal. Yeah. And the second thing you want to see are the bears, because they're the strongest and the fastest. And the third, you want to see the monkeys because they're funny. And occasionally one of them jerks off. Right. And what I said. I don't think you had added the jerk off line yet, because I said, as long as they're not throwing their at you. Yeah. Got nothing. Yeah. Got no laugh from you. Well, I would have gone softer, as you saw. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And. And Steve Higgins was like, this is not going well already. And did you know Steve before? Kind of. I'd met him once or twice, like on the scene. Right. And then you just looked at me for a little while. Uhhuh. And. And I. And. And Steve actually went, lauren. And you said, it's. It's. It's important to look in someone's eyes. You can see a lot in someone's eyes. And then I was trying to exude some star quality of some kind. Right. Which it was not successful. God, you really remember this? Yeah, I remember it. And then I. There, in my recollection, there was a smaller bowl of candy. And. Yeah, that's the Tootsie Roll one, but it's a Jolly Rancher in my mind. No. Would have. Would have been Tootsie Rolls. Well, I remember I took one, and at that moment, you shot a Look at Steve. And I thought I'd failed the candy test. Oh, yeah. No, no, there was no candy. There was no. No alternative candy. There was just the one. There was popcorn probably there. Right there. No, I didn't get popcorn. Yeah. And that was sort of like the. My experience with it. And then I waited and it. And, and nothing happened. And I'd heard a couple of things over the years. I'm not hung up on this. No, no, no. But where would. Where Were we in 95? Is this when Norm was about. Was renegotiating his contract? But it was interesting because at that time, remember, we were doing alternative comedy very much downtown. Because. Because. And I mean, no offense, but you said, you, you said. One of the first things you said was like, I don't know what you think you're doing down there below 14th Street. Right. But it doesn't matter. Right. I was trying to be helpful and save you a few years. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. Well, I appreciate it. No, I was just being playful. I know. That was a very revealing and amazing time for me to finally get to talk to Lauren and to, you know, put that story to rest. That it was really just a, you know, a decision making process, you know, based on an ensemble. Well, that was what he told me, and that's fine. But more what I came out of that with, whether it's his calculating presentation of himself or not, is that this guy is a guy that works at this building. I mean, he's a billionaire and he's produced amazing stuff his whole life, and he's a cultural icon and, and the show is. But, you know, just seeing him at this age, you know, wandering the same halls, you know, since the early 70s or mid-70s, it's kind of crazy because he's a guy who goes to work, he's a TV producer.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But like, I had made him into this mythic almost God who decides people's, you know, future, which he is. But it's really. It's not in the sense that he's, you know, vengeful. It's just that, you know, he's got an eye for fucking talent. And, you know, he has, he runs the show, but he is essentially a guy who works at 30 Rock, who.

[Judd Apatow]

Someone gives him 30 sketches and he goes, these eight. He has a job.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. And he's standing there watching it unfold. And so it was humanizing.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah, you're one of 10,000 decisions he's making.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. And it was all very humanizing, you know, but after, you know, all is said and done, I know as a grown person and I've known it for a few years, that I wasn't ready for that job. There was no fucking way, you know, I didn't, I had no control over my talent. I had no, you know, sense of who I was really as a performer. And I was nowhere near ready for the job.

[Judd Apatow]

So Lauren was right again.

[Marc Maron]

He was, yeah. And the way he told me he made the decision was, I thought, diplomatic and it was easy on me, but, you know, because he could have said you weren't ready. And I knew that and I would have took that. But the idea that he's sort of like, there's a lot of things that are happening and, you know, everything has to. I'm like, that was a nice thing for him to do. It's a nice gesture.

[Judd Apatow]

I'm glad we got to do this.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Judd Apatow]

How was it listening to yourself?

[Marc Maron]

It was great, man. I. I think I should go back and listen to a few episodes.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah. I'll tell you the good ones.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, you got. There's like a whole bunch more there. I'll go check them out because I trust your opinion.

[Judd Apatow]

There's a whole bunch more. Maybe we could, we could end on Mr. Norm McDonald.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, please.

[Judd Apatow]

Talking about Norm things.

[Marc Maron]

Aren't you still afraid of everything? I am. I mean, I try, I try to hide it and deal with it, but on a day to day basis, I.

[Barack Obama]

I, no, I'm not afraid of everything. I'm afraid of very few things.

[Marc Maron]

Like what?

[Barack Obama]

Illness, death.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. How'd you get peace of mind out of the other shit?

[Barack Obama]

Well, when I was, When I was very. This is a weird thing that happened to me when I was young.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

I don't know if this means anything. I remember it, but it was a moment I had that wasn't religious or epiphany or anything, but it transformed me to some degree. Is that I was always fucking so afraid of everything. And if I went to a store, I'd have to walk around forever before I could even face a person in the store to buy a pack of gum. I don't know why the. I was like this.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

But anyways, when I was nine, there was a blunt. We lived in rural Ontario and there was a blind friend of my dad's.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

That I had to. He said, take him to the store. I was like, what the. Like, I have to take this blind and I'm already shy. And so. So I'm taking him to the store. And then the Fucker wants me to explain everything, describe everything to him.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

So I'm like, there's some grass over here, and now there's a lamppost. And this guy's all happy. What about the lamppost? I mean, it's just a lamppost. So it goes on and on. But something happened to me during. It sounds bizarre, but something happened to me where I was actually. Instead of always looking inward, which I think I'd always done before. Before that one time I was looking outward. Anyways, while I was talking to him, I suddenly had a sort of a hysteria. Like, I was laughing. I started laughing and stuff, and I don't even know why I'm remembering this, but I started laughing about everything. And everything seemed like very, very funny to me. And then a couple weeks later, I saw a homeless guy and he was talking about. He was. He was talking. He started talking to me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

And he was talking to me about John D. Rockefeller. He's like, I was at John D. Rockefeller's funeral.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

And all this.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

And I was laughing at him, and then he started laughing and I was like, it's all crazy. Like, it's. Something came to me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

Where I. I started. And so now I find everything funny except, like, real serious. Like, I'm no fear of going on stage.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Barack Obama]

About death and.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Barack Obama]

And so. But the other thing I. But the problem with laughing is I will get. It will build to a hysteria sometimes that I have to crank a couple of benzos to prevent a panic attack.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Barack Obama]

Yeah. I can get panic attacks.

[Marc Maron]

You can laugh yourself into an anxiety attack.

[Barack Obama]

Absolutely.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

I start laughing and then it gets out of control, like, hysterical. And I still have extreme sensitivity to. To things like I can not. Not to. Nor not to life things, but to. To, like, literature or art or something like that. I have incredible sensitivity. I kind of have to stay away from it.

[Marc Maron]

Like, what's an example? Like a painting or a. Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

Paintings. Like, I don't know anything about art. Nothing at all, really. But I have had experiences that have been so hard on me. Like, one time I was in New York and somebody dragged me to a art museum, which. I hate art.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

And I was looking at this picture, this girl, and I was, like, falling in love with her. She was so beautiful, this girl in this picture.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

And then the guide was telling me the thing was written, you know, drawn in the 16th century. Obviously, this lady was dead, long dead. And here I am, fucking in love with her.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Barack Obama]

And so I'm like, ah, fuck it. I was like, so hard on me for so many days. So I try not to. It sounds crazy, right? Not really, but I can be very.

[Marc Maron]

It sounds like that's a very good painting.

[Barack Obama]

It was an incredible painting.

[Judd Apatow]

Well, thank you for. For having me. And thanks for doing the show. I enjoy. I enjoyed the show. I was 16 years. I enjoyed it.

[Marc Maron]

I was always thrilled that you were a fan of the show. And we've had conversations and your input and. And excitement about interviews was always something that propelled me in times of doubt.

[Judd Apatow]

I appreciate that. It's my favorite type of thing. And let me tell you the biggest tribute I have for you. My tribute to you is that this show is so amazing that I didn't do a podcast.

[Marc Maron]

I kind of knew you were on the fence for a while.

[Judd Apatow]

I knew it couldn't be topped.

[Marc Maron]

Well, you did it when you were a kid.

[Judd Apatow]

I did it when I was 15. I tried to invent it.

[Marc Maron]

A very early version. Thanks, buddy.

[Judd Apatow]

Yeah, that was fun.

[Marc Maron]

There you go. A lot of stuff. Hope you enjoyed that. You can pre order Judd's book, Comedy A Lifelong Obsession in Stories and Pictures. It comes out October 28th. Hang out for a minute, folks. Hey, you guys, if you want all those old episodes Judd was playing for me, you can get a subscription to the full WTF archives, which gets you every WTF episode ad free, including the first five years, which are not available in the free feed right now, as well as every bonus episode we ever did. There are about 300 of those. Go to supercast.com and put WTF in the search bar. Or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by acast. And here's that new Telecaster. On that beautiful Telecaster bridge pickup, SA Boomer lifts monkey and La Fonda cat angels everywhere.