Episode 1684 - Matt Groening

Summary

WTF with Marc Maron: Episode 1684 – Matt Groening

Date: October 6, 2025
Guest: Matt Groening (Creator of The Simpsons, Futurama, Disenchantment)
Host: Marc Maron

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Episode Overview

In one of the final interviews recorded in his iconic garage, Marc Maron welcomes Matt Groening—the legendary creator of The Simpsons, Futurama, and Disenchantment. Their sprawling, candid conversation traces Groening’s creative influences, his path from Portland to LA, the origins of The Simpsons, his passions for underground comics and unusual music, and how shows like The Simpsons became cultural institutions and writer workshops. The episode is loaded with never-before-shared stories, personal reflections, and reflections on the meaning of subversive art in a shifting America.

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Key Themes and Discussion Highlights

1. The Origins of Homer Simpson

• [08:15] Matt Groening reveals for the first time the original inspiration for Homer Simpson:

  “It was from a 1982 documentary on PBS… about a guy who had a Shakey’s Pizza franchise. And… I thought, this is a man, a sweet man who’s getting kicked in the ass by life. I want to write about that. And that’s where Homer came from.”
  — Matt Groening [09:01]

• Marc reacts:
  “That’s the big news on this episode.” — Marc Maron [09:19]

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2. Empathy, Documentaries, and the State of American Discourse

• [09:32] Groening recommends the HBO documentary Which Way Home, describing it as the most heartbreaking thing he’s seen and a remedy to the “empathy deficit.”
• Discussion pivots to how propaganda and the narrowing of media have eroded empathy and made dialogue more difficult, especially intergenerationally (e.g., Trumpism, Fox News).
• Groening:

  “It doesn’t even get acknowledged. The things to be empathetic about... Everything is so narrow, and everything is replaced by the next thing.”
  — Matt Groening [10:23]

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3. Influences: Growing Up in Portland and Counterculture

• [11:27] Groening tells stories from 1960s Portland:
  • Being usher at a Billy Graham revival, sneaking away to discover the Psychedelic Shop, seeing a Grateful Dead poster, and buying his first records.
  • His parents’ progressive streak and their magazine subscriptions exposed him to political and psychedelic ideas early.
• [19:09] Many Simpsons street names and characters named after real places and people from Portland (e.g., Lovejoy, Reverend Lovejoy; Kearney, etc.).
• Matt’s father:
  • Canadian-born, grew up a Mennonite, teacher, and WWII B-17 bomber pilot—a rich, complex figure who influenced Matt’s worldview.

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4. Underground Comics, Zines, and Artistic Rebellion

• [28:27] Groening discusses being raised surrounded by cartooning books (Punch, Saturday Evening Post), underground comics like Crumb, and imitating Dr. Seuss and Peanuts as a child.
• [31:01] The origins of Life in Hell (his breakthrough zine):

  “I hated [LA] so much… I made my own little magazine, my own little zine called Life in Hell. And it was all about Los Angeles and living here and how much I hated it… Most humor has hostility in it, but you can’t be so blatant with it. You gotta lure people in.”
  — Matt Groening [31:01]

• Life in Hell became popular after Matt shifted from “ranting” to making protagonist Binky a victim—people love an underdog.

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5. Music Obsession and Punk Scene

• [39:02] Marc and Matt list favorite “weird” musicians: The Residents, Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, Bonzo Dog Band, avant-garde classical composers (John Cage, Terry Riley, etc.).
• [42:38] Groening lands a job at Licorice Pizza (record shop) during punk’s LA explosion and distributed Life in Hell there.
• Decision to avoid drug use heavily influenced by Zappa's anti-drug stance.

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6. The Break: From 'Life in Hell' to Hollywood

• [44:35] Success of Love is Hell and Work is Hell attracted Art Spiegelman, who introduced him to Pantheon Books and mainstreamed his work.
• [49:16] Polly Platt buys a Groening piece for James L. Brooks, leading to a life-changing meeting (after Matt walks to Paramount because his car was towed).
• [51:05] In 1987, Fox asks for short cartoons for The Tracey Ullman Show. He resists giving up Life in Hell rights, so invents The Simpsons in the waiting room.

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7. The Simpsons: Conception and Philosophy

• Groening based Bart on a blend of his brother Mark, himself, and his mischievous childhood friend Joe (“the kid with the finger up his butt”).
• [51:51]

  “The most memorable cartoon characters you can identify in silhouette… that’s what I try to do.”
  — Matt Groening [51:51]

• Inspiration for Bart visually drawn in part from a Diane Arbus photo that led the boy in the photo to write Groening a letter (53:05).

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8. Creative Process, Influences, and Writer Culture

• Simpsons' early days: Studio (Klasky Csupo), casting (Dan Castellaneta, Julie Kavner, Nancy Cartwright, Yeardley Smith), and the chaos/limits of network TV—censorship stories (“Bart cannot hold a shotgun up to the Easter Bunny and say, in five minutes…”).
• National Lampoon, Mad Magazine, Monty Python, underground comics like Zap comics cited as crucial influences for both Matt and the comedic culture that shaped The Simpsons.
• [64:08] Groening credits Sam Simon’s talent-spotting for assembling a legendary writers' room (e.g., Conan O’Brien, Greg Daniels, Dana Gould, John Schwartzwelder).

• “It provided a space for them to really take it out there … with a cartoon, I mean, you can literally do anything with jokes.”
  — Marc Maron [65:13]

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9. The Art of Subversion and Longevity

• Groening on the show's attitude:

  “What’s at the heart of what the Simpsons has become is there’s a healthy amount of fuck you in it.”
  — Marc Maron [26:04]

• On blending emotion and rebellion:

  “[Simpsons’ mission was] to make people forget they’re watching a cartoon, to go for moments of real emotion. We know it’s going to be cartoony, but let’s go for real, real emotion.”
  — Matt Groening [58:03]

• Admits maintaining originality with 800 episodes is “impossible”—but values that it’s still not a “ghost ship” (show running on inertia).

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10. Family and Personal Life

• [67:31] Matt is a father of ten (with two women), including two sets of twins and children ranging from adult to toddlers; describes his daily “line up for school” tradition; emphasizes making time for family.
• Funny cat stories: Purina Cat Chow wanted his obese rescue cat Frosty as a “before” ad model.

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11. Reflections on Creation, Legacy, and Moving On

• [72:16] Groening draws a parallel to Maron's pending end of the podcast: after 32 years, ending Life in Hell was a relief, not a loss.
• Advice on quitting and creative transitions:

  “Don’t be afraid. It’s gonna be great. You can honestly do it again.”
  — Matt Groening [72:28]

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Origin of Homer:
  “That’s where Homer came from.”
  — Matt Groening [09:01]

• On empathy:
  “I think it would change people’s minds who have no empathy for immigrants if they could see this documentary.”
  — Matt Groening [09:54]

• On anti-hero artistry:
  “Most humor has hostility in it, but you can’t be so blatant with it. You gotta lure people in.”
  — Matt Groening [31:01]

• On Mad Magazine writers:
  “He’s the best drawer in the business… I think [Eric Gonies] is the top, yes.”
  — Matt Groening [63:46]

• On writer development in TV:
  “It provided a space for them to really take it out there… with a cartoon, I mean, you can literally do anything with jokes.”
  — Marc Maron [65:13]

• On ending projects:
  “To not have that one extra deadline. … Don’t be afraid. It’s gonna be great. You can honestly do it again.”
  — Matt Groening [72:18, 72:28]

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Memorable Anecdotes

• Matt drew The Simpsons characters in a Fox waiting room minutes before their pitch meeting, intentionally using human figures to avoid losing rights to his animals from Life in Hell ([51:13]).
• Buying his first Zappa album at a grocery store record bin ([24:00]).
• The real-life inspiration behind many Simpsons names—drawn from friends, family, and Portland locales.
• How Bart’s look is partly inspired by a Diane Arbus photo—Matt later receives a letter from the grown-up boy from the photo ([52:38]).
• Cat “Frosty” becoming a dieting icon in a Purina Cat Chow ad, but only as the “before” model ([70:57]).

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Takeaways for Listeners

• The episode is a treasure trove of creative origin stories, the alchemy of influences that birthed a cultural juggernaut, and a meditation on how subversive art and emotional sincerity can populate even the brightest, zaniest animated worlds.
• Groening’s candidness offers insight not only into his work, but into the driving obsessions, anxieties, and relationships behind truly long-lasting creative projects.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [08:15] Origin of Homer Simpson
• [09:32] Which Way Home doc & empathy in media
• [17:36] Matt’s father as cartoonist and influence
• [19:09] Portland street names as Simpsons characters
• [24:00] Zappa and music obsession
• [28:27] Underground comics, Crumb, early influences
• [31:01] Life in Hell zine and comic strip journey
• [39:02] Musical weirdos and avant-garde influences
• [46:45] LA punk scene, Gary Panter, and comic community
• [51:05] The Simpsons created in a Fox waiting room
• [53:05] Diane Arbus story and Bart’s look
• [58:03] Brooks’ vision for Simpsons: emotional resonance
• [64:08] Building the legendary Simpsons writing staff
• [67:31] Matt’s family life and his 10 children
• [70:57] Cat story and Purina Cat Chow ad
• [72:16] Quitting lifelong projects and creative renewal advice

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Tone & Language

• Conversational, intimate, irreverent; both Groening and Maron blend humor, candor, and a certain sentimental, late-career wisdom.
• Deeply personal reflections sit right alongside pop culture minutiae and comic-nerd glee.

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Perfect for fans of The Simpsons, animation history, and anyone interested in the intersections of American pop culture, rebellion, and creative durability.

Transcript

[Matt Groening]

Lock the gates.

[Marc Maron]

All right, let's do this. How are you? What the. What the Buddies. What the Knicks. I'm Mark Marin. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. We're coming down to the Wire here. Only a few more shows. I hope you're all right. Are you all right? Today on the show, Matt Groening is here. He's the creator of the Simpsons, which means he's responsible for a global phenomenon and an American cultural institution. I was on episode 653 of the Simpsons. That's season 30. He's also known for Futurama Disenchantment. And he got him right under the wire here. He will be the last guest recorded here in the garage. I'm going to do one more and that'll be me talking to you directly. Just me. Just us. It's going to be just us. And then we have one more after that. This is the longest goodbye ever. But it's important. It's important. I have to go in the house now. I think, what is it with being sick and you want toast? You just want peanut butter and toast? Is that a childhood thing? I don't know. I hope it doesn't upset you that I don't talk for a really long time today. I will on Thursday, but I am under the weather and I have to go run around the fucking city of Los Angeles now and DO Q&As at two screenings of my doc. Let's talk about that. Couple of things. The special screenings is a documentary. Are we good around the country? They happen Wednesday, October 8th. It's currently playing in New York and LA. I'll be at a screening at the arrow here in LA next Friday, October 10th. You can go to arewegoodmaren.com to see where else it's playing and get tickets. I'll be back at Dynasty typewriter in LA for two shows. Saturday, October 11th and Friday, October 17th. I'll be back at Largo on Tuesday, October 14th and Tuesday, October 28th with the band. You can go to wtfpod.com tour for tickets. Also, you guys, if I'm going to talk certainly in the near future, I will do it on Instagram. So you can go follow me on Instagram if you haven't done that. Also, our friend Brian Jones, who makes all the cat mugs I give to my guests, will be part of the Hudson Valley Pottery tour this month. That's October 18th and 19th. Admission is free to all the studios on the Tour. Go to HudsonValley PotteryTour.com to learn more I've been doing a lot of work around the house trying to make it funner for Charlie, make it more fun for Charlie when I have him locked upstairs. It's so dumb waffling about what I'm gonna do with this cat. Eventually, we'll move him into his own house out here. But until then, I put Toget. I was sick yesterday, and I put together a cat tree and I opened the window. I took a shade off with the screwdriver from, you know, screwing screws out of wood and took that down. Want to take it down? Anyways, then I screwed the window shut to make sure he couldn't fuck with it. And now he can perch on his new cat tree and look out the window. Yeah, that's. That's what. It's so ridiculous. It's so ridiculous how much I tweak out about these cats. Scrambled to the vet today. That was a whole other thing, man. You know, Buster's been acting weird, and you kind of feel like, you know, when they're sick or. And he was marking everywhere. And I don't know, I thought it was Charlie and, you know, but it comes and goes. And I found, like, you know when you're looking for pee and all of a sudden you're like, oh, my God, there's way more pee than I ever imagined possible. Jackson Galaxy told me to get a black light. I'm afraid to even use it. He just fucking peed all along the inside of the curtains, all around the rooms. I was like, what the fuck? And he's on Busporin. I'm on that. I'm on the Busporin. I no longer pee on the wall around the house. I mean, why isn't it working for him? Yeah, I was a big peer in corners. No more. It should be working for him. But then I thought, maybe he's got a uti. So I took him to the vet. I'm scrambling because I got some things to do out of town and, you know, I'm scrambling to get everything. I'd brought Charlie to the vet to see if he might be fucked up with a pee thing because he's peeing in the sink, but he's always peed in the sink. Then I took Buster in, they did tests, and, you know, she didn't think it was UTI because he's marking, but Buster always pees vertically. He always marks. I've never seen him pee normal. The Busporin should be working for that, right? Anyway, so yesterday I get a. Or the day before yesterday, I Get a email from the vet. He's got bacteria in his pee. And I'm like, well, I gotta go. So I drag poor Buster in there and get him, give him the shot. And then I had all these errands to run yesterday and wasn't working out. This is not. None of it's important. We should be here kind of easing out, but it's so weird. I know I've talked about this before, but when I get sick and my body just slows down, I can really tap into stuff. I can tap into vibes I felt a long time ago about places. I guess it's sort of like a deja vu of sickness maybe. Like, I think that when your body sort of shut down a little bit and you're a little sick, it remembers other times you were sick. I keep thinking about college and about, you know, kind of walking through always feeling exhausted and just feeling the fall in Boston and just sort of like. Kind of like totally tripping out on it. I guess the word now is vibing on it, and it's just almost like time travel. When I get a little ill, I hope it doesn't get worse. Kit's got a bronchial thing. You don't want that, man. Keep it out of my chest, please. Please keep it out of my chest. I know this is not the kind of thing you want to be talking about as we head into the last few shows, but this is who I am right now. And I'll say it again and again. I'm so happy you guys hung out, man. I'm so happy you guys all hung out. A lot more people hung out than I even thought of. Every time I have a guest on, it's like, there were, like, so many people told me that they heard me. I'm like, oh, my God. But I'm glad you hung out. I hope I didn't get anyone sick. Oh, my God. Do I have to keep talking through the sickness? You guys going to be okay until Thursday? That's a big talk. I just. Oh, so much work to make one cat comfortable. It's so fucking crazy. It'll all level off. Everything is so important to me in the moment. I do not have adhd. What I have is when I realize something is up, I have to deal with it immediately or else I'll forget it. But, you know, I gotta give this cat thing a rest. God damn it. All right, look, this is. This is the way I'm going out.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Wow.

[Marc Maron]

Today, with only a few shows left, sick and worked up about cats that makes sense. All right, look, Matt Groening is here. Season 13 of Futurama is now on Hulu. The Simpsons just began its 37th season, and the 800th episode will air in February. And this is me talking to the great Matt Gr. What have you never mentioned.

[Matt Groening]

I've never mentioned the original inspiration for Homer Simpson. And it was from a 1982 documentary on PBS. It was part of the Middletown series about Muncie, Indiana. And one of the episodes was called Family Business. And it was about a guy who had a shaky's pizza franchise.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And he was going nuts. He couldn't make his monthly do. And. And. And it was just about him trying to make pizza and have the straw hat on and playing the piano and running around and stuff. And he had his kids working there.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And his kids loved him, but he didn't have enough money to pay his kids.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And one. One moment in this. In the documentary, the kids just can't take it, and they go to a movie instead of coming to work.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And he's there by himself. And of course, the camera crew is there documenting this guy going crazy. And I thought, this is a man, a sweet man who's getting kicked in the ass by life. I want to write about that. And that's where Homer came from.

[Marc Maron]

From that guy. From the shakies guy.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's good information.

[Matt Groening]

Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

And it's never been out there.

[Matt Groening]

Nope.

[Marc Maron]

That's the big news on this episode. Do you have an outline?

[Matt Groening]

I just have some little things if I want to mention something that I get the. Yeah, get the thing right.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You did some work beforehand?

[Matt Groening]

Well, there's a. You know, there's a few. There's a documentary that I love that I want to mention. It's called which Way Home? It's an HBO documentary from God. I don't remember where.

[Marc Maron]

Which Way Home?

[Matt Groening]

Which Way Home. It's about immigrant children coming up from Central America, Mexico to the United States. And it is the most heartbreaking documentary I've ever seen.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Okay.

[Matt Groening]

And I think it would change people's minds who have no empathy for immigrants if they could see this documentary. It just blew my mind.

[Marc Maron]

The empathy deficit. I don't completely understand, but I've grown to believe that through massive pummeling by propaganda, that I think it creates a manic state. And I don't think they can see past it until they see people face to face.

[Matt Groening]

Well, it doesn't even get acknowledged. The things to be empathetic about, you know, on the news. I mean, you know, everything is so narrow, and everything is replaced by the next thing. The next thing. The next thing.

[Marc Maron]

Whatever the news is.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah. Whatever it is. It's all about.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I had that conversation with someone the other night about their parents, you know, getting, you know, brain fucked into. Into Trumpism. And it's really. Because that generation, you know, your age, a little older, when they watch Fox News, they think it's the news, Right.

[Interviewer/Producer]

They.

[Marc Maron]

And these are people that watched Cronkite, you know, for half their life, and they just don't make the adjustment. They're like, well, that guy's sitting there behind the desk. It's the news.

[Matt Groening]

Well, one way in which I'm not surprised by Trump is that growing up watching television evangelists blatantly being crooks and con artists.

[Marc Maron]

Oral Roberts.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, Oral Roberts.

[Marc Maron]

Billy Graham.

[Matt Groening]

Billy Graham.

[Marc Maron]

Oral Robertson.

[Matt Groening]

When I was in the Boy Scouts in the late 1960s, our scoutmaster volunteered us to be ushers at a Billy Graham revival.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Wow.

[Matt Groening]

In. In Portland, Oregon.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And we got on a bus and we drove over there. And on the way, I drove past something called the Psychedelic Shop, which is a brand new emporium.

[Marc Maron]

How old were you?

[Matt Groening]

I was 12.

[Marc Maron]

Okay, so you're driving home from the.

[Matt Groening]

No, no, I'm driving on the way.

[Marc Maron]

To the revival, to the Billy Graham.

[Matt Groening]

Revival, and I see the Psychedelic Shop, and I go. I got to go there.

[Marc Maron]

1960.

[Matt Groening]

67.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, so early, early, early. First psychedelic show.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Matt Groening]

And I snuck out of the revival after handing out tracts, and I walked across the bridge across the river, Willamette river, to the Psychedelic Shop, and there's where I saw the thing I remember most, is that Grateful Dead poster with the Skeleton and the Roses.

[Marc Maron]

That's the best record.

[Matt Groening]

The best.

[Marc Maron]

That's like late 60s, right? So that's 67 live.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah. The very first Grateful. Very first record I ever bought was the Grateful Dead record.

[Marc Maron]

Which one?

[Matt Groening]

The first one. The first album.

[Marc Maron]

What else did you see in there?

[Matt Groening]

Well, the only thing I could afford at the time was the first Country Joe on the fish 7 inch EP.

[Marc Maron]

So it was a record shop, too.

[Matt Groening]

Well, records and posters, right?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So you got Country Joe and the Fish, which one?

[Matt Groening]

The Rag Baby ep. It's a seven inch ep.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Matt Groening]

But see, I had very hip parents, and my father was in advertising, and we subscribed to. We got free subscriptions to every general interest magazine in the country. And I had just read an issue of Ramparts magazine, which was this political.

[Marc Maron]

Back when. When Horowitz Was the other way, so.

[Matt Groening]

Yes, exactly.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Matt Groening]

Anyway, they talked about psychedelic music in this magazine, which I'd never heard, I just heard about. And so I wanted to hear what it sounded like. And it turned out it was rock and roll. Sure.

[Marc Maron]

It was like, is all kind of country driven rock.

[Matt Groening]

Right, right, right.

[Marc Maron]

It's interesting. Ramparts magazine that Horowitz. What's his first name? David. That he went so dramatically the other way that he was part of the Ramparts magazine. And then something broke in his brain and he is cited as the mentor of Stephen Miller. It's crazy, that story. Like, I try. I know his son and I'm like, that's gotta be a movie. The arc of that. Because Ramparts was an important lefty rag, right?

[Matt Groening]

Yes, it was.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then this guy becomes the architect of the mindset that creates a Stephen Miller. Isn't that a fascinating movie?

[Matt Groening]

Yes, yes. But, you know, other thing about Stephen Muller that I don't get? How could you go to Santa Monica High School and turn out like him?

[Marc Maron]

Because he was clearly annoying and hated. And it seems to me that the only way he could push back on it was leaning into it. And then he began to enjoy it.

[Matt Groening]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

He liked being a fucking iconoclastic cunt. And it gave him in his own space. And they didn't like him anyways.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And then he locked in. And this is what we get, a Jewish Nazi.

[Matt Groening]

Yes, you were. I remember you said that on your special, which I just watched. That was great.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, thank you so much. You know we met, right? At. At the Zappa house. Yes, I remember that.

[Matt Groening]

Do you remember what year that was?

[Marc Maron]

Holy shit. Well, it was. It must have been maybe. Maybe a year before she got cancer.

[Matt Groening]

So it was a party.

[Marc Maron]

It's a yearly Christmas party at the Zappos. I'd been dating moon for about 10 minutes, and I'd gotten invited to this very Dug in tradition of the Zappa Christmas party. And going over there was just mind blowing to me. That was the first time I'd been at the house.

[Matt Groening]

Oh, wow.

[Marc Maron]

And we only dated for like six months, but it was long enough to be able to go to that thing. And her giving the tour of the Frank studio and then the new studio. And for some reason, Moby was there because him and Moon are friends. And he was dragging along on the tour. It ruined it. He kept stopping and playing every fucking instrument in the place. I'm like, dude, just have some reverence, dude.

[Matt Groening]

That was amazing. So you asked me to do your podcast then.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Then yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And what happened?

[Matt Groening]

And I said, I'll think about it.

[Marc Maron]

And now you're doing the last one.

[Matt Groening]

This is the last one?

[Marc Maron]

Well, no, the last one is also going to be an interview. And then the one before the last one is gonna be me just talking about the podcast. And then the third to the last one is gonna be you.

[Matt Groening]

Wow.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

I'm honored. So if you recall, at the time, I promised you that I would do your podcast and you would be the first podcast that I would do.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And I kept that in my mind all those years. But I did. I have to confess, I did do two other podcasts. I did a Simpsons podcast because it was the last episode of the Simpsons podcast called Round Springfield.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Matt Groening]

By Ali Gertz and Julia Prescott. And then I did a. Jay Kogan, who was a Simpsons writer, he had a. He had a podcast. So those are the only two I did. And that's good.

[Marc Maron]

Myself for you, because, you know, as long. As long as you covered all that Simpson stuff elsewhere, then maybe we can have a good conversation.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Who.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I don't want to talk about anything Simpson related.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean, it's interesting because, like, generationally, like my producer, who's, you know, a good deal younger than me, he's in his mid-40s. I mean, the Simpsons informed his entire existence. There's a whole generation of people who. The Simpsons, you know, it just gave them all the intellectual and comedic and, you know, cultural education that enabled them to move through the world with a sense of humor, intelligence. I believe that.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Wow.

[Marc Maron]

Do you believe that?

[Matt Groening]

Well, I have to be a little bit more modest.

[Marc Maron]

No, you don't.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

So. No, but what I. What I will. I push back, and I'll push it away from me, is say that one of the great things about the Simpsons, I always wanted it to be funny.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And I always thought it was going to be a success, but I didn't know that it would be that crazily successful. And I didn't understand what. What the possibilities are. I thought there were boundaries and rules in animation that I knew in my head, and I was wrong.

[Marc Maron]

Animation, not.

[Matt Groening]

Not in comedy. Whatever.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And. And there were so many things I liked and so many things that influenced me from time. I was a little kid. My father, Homer, was a cartoonist in the 1950s.

[Marc Maron]

Is that true?

[Matt Groening]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know why I just said it like that. Like you'd be lying to me about that. Let's go back to that, then. So you grew up where I grew up.

[Matt Groening]

In Portland, Oregon.

[Marc Maron]

So Portland, Oregon, you know, war torn.

[Matt Groening]

Portland, Oregon.

[Marc Maron]

Sure, yeah. Where it's impossible for people to live there right now. The war is ongoing.

[Matt Groening]

Exactly.

[Marc Maron]

I just. I just talked to. I have friends up there. I just talked to somebody the other day. It's just all. That's ridiculous. But Portland, for me, when I've gone there, I've always felt a seeping darkness that.

[Matt Groening]

I mean, because it rains so much.

[Marc Maron]

Well, there's that, but it also felt not ancient quite, but maybe 1800s kind of darkness. Like I felt that there was something about that town and whoever discovered it and whatever rules were put into place that made a darkness. Is that possible?

[Matt Groening]

Possible, yeah. Well, you know, it was always rainy. The town was named by a coin toss. It was Lovejoy and I can't remember the other guy. And they tossed a co.

[Interviewer/Producer]

If.

[Matt Groening]

If one had won, it would have been Boston, Oregon, and the other one was Portland.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, we got Portland.

[Matt Groening]

That's why we got Portland.

[Marc Maron]

But the racial laws were kind of rough for a long time.

[Matt Groening]

Racial laws were very bad.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

In Oregon, like that, literally there were no black people allowed.

[Matt Groening]

Right.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Up until like a couple years ago. Right. No.

[Matt Groening]

Things loosened up. I did go to an all white grade school.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Oh, yeah?

[Matt Groening]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Was it called that all white?

[Matt Groening]

It was called. It was called Ainsworth, after Captain Ainsworth.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Oh.

[Matt Groening]

In fact, you know, there's all these streets in Portland that I named Charact after.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Matt Groening]

So that's. Yes. So Lovejoy, Reverend Lovejoy.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Kearney is named after the Kearney Care center where I used to work as a. In high school, washing dishes.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Okay. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

What was it? The Kearney Care Center?

[Matt Groening]

It was for old people.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, so you were a nice kid.

[Matt Groening]

I was. Well, when I wasn't washing dishes, I had a. They tasked me with wheeling old people around the neighborhood. And I remember it was a couple of. Of my dishwashing buddies and we were wheeling these guys and they pointed up at this theater, marquee of the movie theater on the corner. It was the stewardesses in 3D, which was a softcore porn movie. And we did. We coughed up our own money to take the old people.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, you brought them?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And did they enjoy it?

[Matt Groening]

Yes, they did.

[Marc Maron]

Was there any commentary afterwards?

[Matt Groening]

No.

[Marc Maron]

All right, so that. So you're growing up in Portland. So your dad was a published cartoonist?

[Matt Groening]

Yes, in little magazines, you know, Pageant and Argosy.

[Marc Maron]

Single panel stuff.

[Matt Groening]

Single panel? You know, the prospector crawling across the desert looking for something to drink. Those kind of things. Guys on desert Islands.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And. And he was also an advertising person.

[Matt Groening]

He got into advertising, but before that, he's got a really interesting story because he grew up in Kansas. He was first. He was born in Canada because his parents were Mennonites and they were pacifists, and they didn't want him to be an American citizen. So they drove up to Canada. So he would not be born in the US and he would not have to serve in the military.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Matt Groening]

And so he was born in Saskatchewan, and then they came back and lived in western Kansas, where he did not speak English. He spoke German till the age of five. The family did not have a car. They had a wagon. Wagon. Horse and wagon.

[Marc Maron]

And Mennonites.

[Matt Groening]

Mennonites.

[Marc Maron]

And they made it to Portland.

[Matt Groening]

They made it to McMinnville, which is south of Portland, where. I don't know this part of the story, but was it part of that.

[Marc Maron]

Wave of Germans and I think, like, some parts of Russia where they wanted people to come to farm the land in the Midwest because it was so hard.

[Matt Groening]

I guess so.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Okay. Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah. And my dad's mother was from Russia, and her family escaped from Russia, and then they somehow hooked up, met in, got married in Kansas, and then moved to Oregon, where. I don't know how this happened, but both of them became all college educated. And my grandfather was a physics teacher at Linfield College and then Lewis and Clark College for the rest of their lives. And my grandmother taught Russian. And these were men. These were ex Mennonites.

[Marc Maron]

These are your mother's parents or your.

[Matt Groening]

My father's parents.

[Marc Maron]

He was a physicist.

[Matt Groening]

My. He was a physics teacher.

[Marc Maron]

A physics teacher.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

But I didn't understand how. Where do you get the connection from being a Mennonite to. To Einstein? I.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I think that, you know, not unlike you walking into the psychedelic shop, somewhere along the line, his mind got blown.

[Matt Groening]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And he's like, I'm going to figure this out.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah. So my dad was a stalwart, obedient kid who was obsessed by basketball, and he wanted to be a basketball player when he grew up, and he just played basketball all the time. And he realized when he got to college that he was never going to make it in the. In the basketball.

[Marc Maron]

That's an important realization.

[Matt Groening]

So he decided to perfect a basketball shot that only he could do. And so starting in college, he turned around, faced away from the basket to the other, looking at the other basket, and over his head, he would shoot. And he moved out an inch a month for 30 years.

[Marc Maron]

Well, this Explains how he got interested in physics. The answer's right there. That was the seed of it.

[Matt Groening]

The FBI came to the house at the beginning of World War II and said, because my father had joined Red Cross, in fact, he taught life saving at a Japanese internment camp in Southern California. I said, how could you cooperate with such a racist thing? And he said, yeah, it was racist, but I wanted to be good to the people that were locked up, so I taught life saving. Anyway, so the FBI came and they said that if my dad didn't join up, he would go to prison.

[Marc Maron]

Join up in the forces.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, join the forces. And my dad joined the Air Force. Ended up being a B17 bomber pilot.

[Marc Maron]

Come on.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Matt Groening]

And then he gave me the book Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. And I went, oh my God, that's what it was like. He said, no, but it's a really good book.

[Marc Maron]

How old were you when you read that book?

[Matt Groening]

12.

[Marc Maron]

This 12 year old thing, this is where it all starts.

[Matt Groening]

That's right. That's exactly right. Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Grateful Dead.

[Matt Groening]

Grateful Dead. Zappa. Zappa, yes.

[Marc Maron]

Where'd you find Zappa at 12?

[Matt Groening]

That I found Freak out at the grocery store.

[Marc Maron]

At the grocery store? In the record bin.

[Matt Groening]

Record bin at the grocery store? Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I bought Jethro Tull's aqualung at Skaggs Pharmacy. They only had like one little bin of records. And Freak out made it in there.

[Matt Groening]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Isn't that wild when the record companies, they try. And that's a great record to have.

[Matt Groening]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And that was the beginning of your relationship with Zappa?

[Matt Groening]

I followed every album since that first record.

[Marc Maron]

All 900.

[Matt Groening]

Yes. And they still. The amazing thing, like he's been gone since 1993 and they're still putting out new fresh stuff, you know, Ahmed is a few times a year. Ahmed is doing such an amazing job.

[Marc Maron]

At keeping the archive alive.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

They find, I guess they like once they unloaded that house and went through that, all those tapes downstairs, they're like, oh, my God.

[Matt Groening]

Well, when. When Frank was alive, he in invited me over once and. And he said, do you want to. Do you want to see the. The basement?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Where all the tapes were?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And I said, yeah. He goes, well, you got to put on the spelunking helmet. And I. And I had to wear a helmet with a. With a headlamp on it.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And go down into the sub basement. And there were just racks and racks and shelves and shelves.

[Marc Maron]

Did you spend a lot of time with him?

[Matt Groening]

Yes, I did. Well, yes, on a regular basis. A small amount of time. Every day? Every. Every week.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Matt Groening]

Every Friday?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And like, what'd you guys talk about?

[Matt Groening]

Music and politics. And he was. You know, I think he. I think he liked me because I. First of all, he was a big Simpsons fan. So that was. That was good. In fact, he. He said, you know, if you want, I'll come down and mumble into the microphone for you. And. Never got around to it. And he got too sick.

[Marc Maron]

Really? You didn't get him on?

[Matt Groening]

No.

[Marc Maron]

Did you have to approve me being on?

[Matt Groening]

No. Oh, by the way, thank you very much. Thank you very much. What's that? 2018. You were on with Krusty the Clown.

[Marc Maron]

Krusty the Clown. I interviewed Krusty the Clown. I think it's the episode 653 of the Simpsons.

[Matt Groening]

Wow.

[Marc Maron]

That's my episode.

[Matt Groening]

Wow. I'll never forget Crusty saying to you, that's off limits, soul patch.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I think in the tradition, like, in terms of you're gravitating towards Zappa outside the music, I think that what's at the heart of what the Simpsons has become is there's a healthy amount of fuck you in it.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, I would agree with that.

[Marc Maron]

And that art with a healthy amount of fuck you is necessary, more so than ever. But it's hard to get to a broader audience with it, I think now.

[Matt Groening]

Well, I learned. So I moved to Los Angeles after college in 1970.

[Marc Maron]

So. Wait, now, let me just ask you before we get there, because I watched. I've had this. I don't know if it's a catharsis, but a sort of re realization. I watched the documentary Crumb for, like, the second time recently. I saw it when it came out, and I watched it again. And not unlike you, although I'm probably 10 years younger than you, you know, I went into. I had an experience with underground comics that changed my life, completely reconfigured my brain. I was at a B. Dalton bookseller in Wenrock shopping mall in Albuquerque, New Mexico, in the humor section. And they had the history of underground comics. And in that, they was broken into categories like sex, violence, and a few other categories. And I saw there's that one panel by Spain Rodriguez, I think, with the two constellation of two people fucking in space. And then there's all the Crumb stuff. All the fucking. All the fucking. Just like. And I'm sitting there, you know, in this bookstore with a fucking boner, you know, wondering, like, what the fuck is this? They didn't even know what they had changed My life. So. Because it reconfigured the possibilities of. Of comics and of, you know, what you could get away with. But I watched the Crumb documentary again and I realized that if you look at everything through a crumb lens, you will feel better about life. That if you look at. If you look at people and then just crumb them, it humanizes everybody because it's just this, like that slightly strange kind of caricature that shows their flaws. And even if they're grotesque, they're. They're more human than they would be.

[Matt Groening]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And it's really helping me right now. Now, did you have experience with. Before you left, you know, when you were a kid with the. With comics in general?

[Matt Groening]

Well, again, my dad was a cartoonist, so the house was full of cartooning books of how to. Well, how to, but also collections of. From Punch magazine and Saturday Evening Post. And again, we got every magazine in the country delivered to the house. So I read my job was to stack them up in piles in the basement.

[Marc Maron]

Where's Gahan Wilson factor in again?

[Matt Groening]

Wilson was in Playboy.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So where does he factor into your mental.

[Matt Groening]

He's definitely. He's definitely up there, right?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

How do you pronounce his first name?

[Matt Groening]

Gayan.

[Marc Maron]

Gayan. Okay.

[Matt Groening]

I think.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Did you watch that talk?

[Matt Groening]

No, I haven't.

[Marc Maron]

There's a talk about him. That's great. Those ones. Those ones killed me. And the Crumb killed me.

[Matt Groening]

Oh, my God. So I was at Escalate Wilson. Do you remember Meltdown Comics?

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Matt Groening]

On. On Sunset Boulevard. I was in Meltdown Comics. Hawaiian shirt and shorts.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And this guy came in and he said, are you Matt? And I go, yeah. He goes, do you know anything about Playboy? I go, yes. And he said, come with me. And across the street there was an auction of all Playboy. Old Playboy memorabilia from the magazine.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And I came over there and was all people much, much longer. Younger than me.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And they had no idea what they were looking at, nor did the people who ran the auction house. And so I said, that's gay. And Wilson. And that's, you know, so and so.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Groening]

It was amazing.

[Marc Maron]

Do you, you know Esquay Wilson? His stuff?

[Matt Groening]

I met him a couple times. I interviewed him.

[Marc Maron]

He's great.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Can I.

[Matt Groening]

Can I do an interview? Ask me a question to Skull Wilson.

[Marc Maron]

So where did you come up with the Checkered Demon? He was sick already.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's too bad.

[Matt Groening]

I met him. I interviewed all of the Zap comics cartoonists.

[Interviewer/Producer]

A bunch of them.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah. They Did a new issue and they came to la and so Spain.

[Marc Maron]

Robert Esclay.

[Matt Groening]

Esclay. Rick Griffin.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

When was that?

[Matt Groening]

I can't remember.

[Marc Maron]

Were you already doing the Simpsons?

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, no, no, that was before the Simpsons.

[Marc Maron]

Ah, so I think. Yeah, but so when, like, when do you start, do you start doing cartoons before you come down here?

[Matt Groening]

Oh, yeah, I was doing cartoons. I was drawing from the first day of first grade. I was so bored in school that I just remember constantly I did that.

[Marc Maron]

Too, but I didn't stick with it.

[Matt Groening]

Well, I stuck with it, but I didn't think I was going to do anything with it. I just thought, this is. I'm doomed to, to wiggle the pencil.

[Marc Maron]

What were your early styles?

[Matt Groening]

I would always. I would imitate Dr. Seuss and Charles Schultz. Peanuts.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, so that makes sense.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Groening]

So that's why my line is all curvy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's definitely. The peanuts are in there, huh? Right, Dr. Seuss.

[Matt Groening]

And then later when I, when I moved to la, I hated it so much that I, I got a job working at a, a Xerox place and I made my own little magazine, my own little zine called Life in Hell. And it was all about Los Angeles and living here and how, how much I hated it. And, and, and that's one thing that, that, that I learned that hostility only goes a little ways there a lot. Most humor has hostility in it, but, but you can't be so blatant with it. You gotta, you gotta lure people in.

[Marc Maron]

So you had to temper your life from hell.

[Matt Groening]

Well, what I did was at first I would make the, the, the little bunny rabbit that was the star of the, of the comic. Yeah, you just rant. Yeah, you just rant and rant and rant. And people didn't like it.

[Marc Maron]

Single panels?

[Matt Groening]

No, it was like a little comic book. But then in. Well then I got a job at the Los Angeles Reader newspapers. A weekly paper.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And they let me have a comic strip in the back of the paper in the classifieds.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And I called it Life in Hell. And I made it square.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Because that, that was the same shape as a record album.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And, and the, for the first six months I just had. It was very angry and nobody liked it. And then I just made Binky the rabbit.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

A victim.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Matt Groening]

And bad things happened to him and people seem to really like that.

[Marc Maron]

So you switched from the lovable loser existential rants to a existential self hating rant. Right. To underdog.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes. Oh.

[Marc Maron]

And that changed everything.

[Interviewer/Producer]

That did change.

[Marc Maron]

But so when you, what'd you, what'd you study in college?

[Matt Groening]

I went to a college called the Evergreen State College of Washington.

[Marc Maron]

I know that place.

[Matt Groening]

No grades, no required courses.

[Marc Maron]

A lot of patchouli oils.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

A lot of white kids with dreads.

[Matt Groening]

A lot of hippies.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

So what year was that?

[Matt Groening]

That was 73 to 77.

[Marc Maron]

So still pretty full hippie. 73.

[Matt Groening]

It was all hippies.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Matt Groening]

All hippies? Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Were you political? Were you part of it? Were you like, what were you doing? Were you.

[Matt Groening]

Well, I consider myself pretty progressive, but back then I was.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

To them I was, I was, I was.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Right of center.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But what was the scene there? Was there. Did you do poster art or anything?

[Matt Groening]

I, I, I worked, I worked at the school newspaper and I ended up editing the paper and that's all I did. I just would do work on the school newspaper.

[Marc Maron]

Do you have friends?

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's when you have friends. I mean, this is what I tell kids who are miserable in high school.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Grow up, graduate from high school, go to a college and you're going to meet like minded people. Right. You know?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

You know, it's when you're crummy town in your crummy school that you're in now, get away right away and meet and meet creative fun.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You better do it soon before all the colleges turned into just exactly what your high school was.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

When I was in high school it was in downtown Portland and it was during the anti war protests and stuff. And, and the high point of being in, in, at Lincoln High School in Portland was that when the, when the protesters came up and surrounded the school.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And they, and the principal freaked out and he dismissed school.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Immediately. And that meant everybody in the school was out on the street with all the protesters. It was fantastic.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It was exciting.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And it, it probably helped. It might have worked a little bit.

[Matt Groening]

I don't know about that, but. Yeah, well, it's just, you got to do it.

[Marc Maron]

Yes, of course. But it's interesting to me now that what is happening with the right in general, it's just, it's pushback that you know, started just post the 60s, you know, that, you know, and the New Deal, they're still trying to dismantle the New Deal and dismantle any sort of cultural progress that was made in the late 60s. And they're doing it very quickly.

[Matt Groening]

They're feeling their oats.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

But they were. I mean, there was always. There was always this sort of right wing, you know, trying to. Trying to worm their way in. And for the longest time it didn't work. You know, and then it would work here and there and, you know, I mean, in 68, you know, George Wallace ran for president, you know, totally blatant, right wing, racist Democrat.

[Marc Maron]

Were you doing any art relative to that?

[Matt Groening]

I would. I would attempt to do bad psychedelic art. Oh, yes, yes. What form? You know, the psychedelic lettering that you can't really read. Sure. You know.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

You know, and then kind of art nouveau with my. My friend Joe.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Who was my lifelong friend. I met him in the first grade. He was a kid that came up to me and said, smell my finger.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Not first grade. Kindergarten. First day of kindergarten, Joe came up to me and said, smell my finger. I smelled it. It was a bad smell.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, right.

[Matt Groening]

And then he stuck his hand down the back of his pants and go up to everybody else, and that was his thing. Really funny kid.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

So then a month later, the kindergarten teacher marched us all down to the boys restroom and pointed, said, who did that? And there was. There was. Somebody had dumped in the. In the urinal.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, sure.

[Matt Groening]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

And you knew.

[Matt Groening]

And we were shocked. And we were kindergartners, except for Joe, who laughed his ass off and they grabbed him and took him away.

[Marc Maron]

And that was the last you saw of him?

[Matt Groening]

No. The rest of my high school I spent with Joe. We had. You asked about psychedelic posters. I did psychedelic posters for our band that never played. Oh, we had a little band and I wrote the lyrics.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Funny, undulating, circling, kaleidoscope yellow, omnipresent universe. Which is our version of Lucy in the sky with Diamonds. But that spells out fuck you.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, see, the fuck you.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, There you go.

[Marc Maron]

You're right about it. Fuck you. Is there?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And the art wasn't cartoons per se.

[Matt Groening]

It was. Yeah. There were car. It was cartoony.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And Joe, did he let go of the shit angle eventually?

[Matt Groening]

Yes, he did. Yes, he did. And he became a fantastic guitarist and he was a brilliant kid. And he. And then in the. In the height of hippie dom in the late 60s, he shaved his head. And I said, why? He said, I want to be goon worthy. And I don't know exactly what that meant, but he would march around and put up. He put up posters of cartoon robots saying obey, and so on. And my senior year in high school, every month they would give the boy of the month award in The Girl of the Month award. And for the month, that humor was the thing Joe won. Joe won for humor. And he got up on stage and he said his joke. And you have to understand, Lincoln High School is made out of brick.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Okay. So he, he got up in the, on stage and said, why is Lincoln High School so red? Yeah, well, if you had eight periods a day, you'd be red too.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Wow.

[Matt Groening]

And that got him kicked out of school.

[Marc Maron]

So that was it.

[Matt Groening]

And by the way, so my 50th high school reunion, I, I, I told that joke via, via video because I couldn't make it. And people, the kids I went to high school. Oh, no, don't say it. They knew what was coming.

[Marc Maron]

And did they? They all knew, Joe.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And did you play music then, or.

[Matt Groening]

No, I, I wanted to, but I have no skill.

[Marc Maron]

But you're a big music fan.

[Matt Groening]

I was a big music fan. I was in a band. I've been in a band with Stephen King and Dave Barry and Amy Tan and all these other writers. The Rock Bottom Remainders.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Matt Groening]

We were called the Remainders, but it turns out there was another book band called the Remainder.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

So we were the Rock Bottom Remainder.

[Marc Maron]

So how far out did you, do you have a huge record collection?

[Matt Groening]

Yes, of course.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Did you ever. Where'd you start collecting?

[Matt Groening]

Well, I mean, I don't know if collecting. They piled up.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Groening]

You know, from the time I was, you know, in high school. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Just kept coming.

[Matt Groening]

You used in. I think I had incredibly good luck at guessing by album covers what was good.

[Marc Maron]

And you just kept up?

[Matt Groening]

I kept up, you know.

[Marc Maron]

Do you like you jazz guy?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Are you a weirdo music guy?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Marc Maron]

Who are the favorite, who are your favorite weirdos?

[Matt Groening]

Well, how weird do you want to get?

[Marc Maron]

Like, Residents weird?

[Matt Groening]

Oh, yes, I, I know the Residents.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And I wrote a little bit about them back in the day.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

The Residents. Let's see, who else? That universe, that universe of weirdos, obviously. Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, the Bonzo Dog Band from England.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Huh.

[Matt Groening]

And then, and then classical music in avant garde. Classical music. Like Stravinsky. Not so much avant garde, but pretty amazing.

[Marc Maron]

John Cage.

[Matt Groening]

John Cage. George Crumb, Toru Takamitsu.

[Marc Maron]

Terry.

[Matt Groening]

Olivier Messian.

[Marc Maron]

No, I don't know them.

[Matt Groening]

Terry Riley. Terry Riley, yes, of course.

[Marc Maron]

Great.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

All right. So you graduate with a degree in hippie?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And you moved to LA for what?

[Matt Groening]

It was either LA or New York. And so for cartoons? Well, to be a writer.

[Marc Maron]

Okay, so. To be a writer.

[Matt Groening]

Because I never thought, you know, nobody was saying, hey, your cartoons are great.

[Marc Maron]

Okay, so you moved down here to be a writer?

[Matt Groening]

Well, I went to New York to see what it was like.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And I. And there were. There were hypodermics on the stairwell of the apartment I was staying at, and I said, I'm going to lay.

[Marc Maron]

What's your mom do?

[Matt Groening]

She was a schoolteacher, and then she raised five kids.

[Marc Maron]

Five of you?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Are y' all weirdos?

[Matt Groening]

No, I'm the weirdest. But, yeah, they're all weird.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And by the way, they're. You know. So I have a sister Lisa and a sister Maggie. The characters in this show are named after them. And. And my father's Homer, obviously, and my mother is Margaret. But. Yeah, I shortened that to Marge. I was slightly funnier.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And I do have an older brother named Mark.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And. But I was afraid he'd hit me if I. If I named Mark.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

[Marc Maron]

But. So your parents were okay with your choice of life?

[Matt Groening]

No, no, no. They. When I went to Evergreen, they said I was throwing my life away. They. They were very unsupportive. They don't recall. They don't remember it that way, but they. And from my recollection, they were. They. They thought I was wasting my time. In fact, they. I sent them the newspaper that I was editing, the campus newspaper. They showed it to journalists at the Oregonian in Portland.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And they said, he will never get a job in journalism in the Pacific Northwest. And my parents said, you know, we've never. We've never considered disowning you.

[Marc Maron]

But they were progressive people.

[Matt Groening]

They were. But it was like the weirdest thing, because, again, my father was. My father made movies, surfing movies in the 60s. He was very hip and. And very adventurous, but he had this military backbone that was kind of harsh.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but he was an artist.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, he was. And he was a cartoonist. And. But I didn't understand. Well, one thing he said. He said, you can't draw.

[Marc Maron]

He said that?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And then later. Later, the Simpsons takes off, and my mother says, look, look, you did exactly what we told you to do. And look how it turned out.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, of course.

[Matt Groening]

And I said, you didn't tell me. You didn't tell me to do this. You told me. You told me that I should drop out of school and enroll in a community college and learn how. Learn a trade.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

She goes, no, we didn't. I said, you told me to learn how to run a lathe.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And my mother said, no, we would never do that. You know, you're clumsy. You'd slice your hands off.

[Marc Maron]

They want to take credit.

[Matt Groening]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

So when you got here, you're. You were miserable. You worked at the Xerox place.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Where else did you work?

[Matt Groening]

I. Shortly after that, I got a job at Licorice Pizza, a record store right across the street from the Whiskey a Go Go.

[Marc Maron]

So that must have been a life changer. What year was that?

[Matt Groening]

77. So that was the beginning of punk.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah. So. Yeah. So I. Wait, when. When there were 500 people at Tower Records down the street, there would be five people at Licorice Pizza, and you.

[Marc Maron]

Guys are selling mostly punk records?

[Matt Groening]

No, it was. Yeah, there were. There was a punk corner.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And that's where I put Life in Hell, my little magazine. And the punks used to rip it up, which I felt was like a badge of honor.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So that's where you were doing the magazine at the Xerox store, and then you kept going.

[Matt Groening]

We also sold drug paraphernalia.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Matt Groening]

You know, bongs. Bongs. And little coke vials and. And toy footballs that they made into bongs and all this stuff.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And like a jerk, I always. When people would come in and buy 500 vials, I'd say, what do you think? What do you do with these? What do you. What do you do?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So that was the place.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So the dealers used to.

[Matt Groening]

And I just thought it was so obvious that that's what it was. Sure, whatever.

[Marc Maron]

But you never did the drugs?

[Matt Groening]

No. You know why? Two reasons. One, I was afraid of losing control. But the other reason was Frank Zappa said not to.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

You know, and I said, okay, that's good enough for me. And I liked his stuff.

[Marc Maron]

So he didn't mind eating cigarettes, basically.

[Matt Groening]

Well, yes. He was totally into nicotine and. And coffee.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

In fact, one time he had to go back east and he was flying private and they asked, would you be willing to go with him? Because nobody in the family wanted to be on a plane with Frank.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Across the country while he smoked incessantly in the back.

[Marc Maron]

I remember that.

[Matt Groening]

And I said, yeah, I'll do it. But then he got too sick and he didn't know.

[Marc Maron]

That's so sad. And did you hang out with Beefheart?

[Matt Groening]

Very little. Very little.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I bet you knew all the kids and everything, Gail, and everything.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, I love all the kids. I love all the kids.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So when do you make the break? I mean, when does it start taking off with his wife in hell? Right.

[Matt Groening]

Well, life in hell. I self published the book Love is hell in 1984, and it was a little. It was. It was the size of a record album because again, that's where I thought, oh, they could stock it at record stores.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And it was called Love is Hell. And then I did a book called Work is Hell in shortly thereafter, and they sold so well that I got the attention of Art Spiegelman of Mouse fame. And he introduced me to Pantheon Books. And Pantheon Books published Mouse and My Life in Hell books.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, Spiegelman's like. He's like a comic savant.

[Matt Groening]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

He's like.

[Marc Maron]

He's the history of comics.

[Matt Groening]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

He knows him reference it and everything.

[Matt Groening]

Yes. He's brilliant.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. He smokes a lot, too.

[Matt Groening]

Yes, he does.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

But now it's whatever, vape, vape. I think.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, my God. I think he was smoking those Camel straights.

[Matt Groening]

Speaking of Crumb.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Crumb was supposed to come to LA and I was supposed to interview him on stage.

[Marc Maron]

Me, too.

[Matt Groening]

Really?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Here? Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Oh, they asked me ask for.

[Marc Maron]

No, not on stage. No.

[Matt Groening]

Okay. Anyway, I was supposed to interview him on stage to promote the book, the biography by Dan Nadell. And Crumb backed out. Bailed, bailed. And then Art Spiegelman said, I'll go. And Art Spiegelman came out.

[Marc Maron]

How was that?

[Matt Groening]

That was amazing. Did you know, as you said, he was. He was. He's the. He got history.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Amazing, right?

[Matt Groening]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

What do you. What do you make of Ralph Bakshi?

[Matt Groening]

When I met Ralph Bakshi, he said, you got to get out of this animation thing. It's a complete rut. It's a. It's. You're wasting your time.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

You know. And then I went, oh, okay, okay. And then I. And then, like the next day, he was announcing a new movie.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Oh, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Who's the other guy? Like, was it. What's that guy's name? Vaughn Von Bodie?

[Matt Groening]

Von Bode or something like that.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Cheech Wizard.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

This is the greatest.

[Matt Groening]

That's wild, right?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, he was great.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So when you come down here, when you start to take off as a. As a cartoonist, do you meet other cartoonists with that outside of Spiegelman, or did you have contemporaries?

[Matt Groening]

Well, I started. I started. I was on the. On the fringes of the punk scene.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Scene. And there was a. There was a newspaper called Slash. Slash Magazine.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Matt Groening]

And there was a comic strip in there called Jimbo by Gary Panter.

[Marc Maron]

Gary Panter's. Great.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Pee Wee's guy.

[Matt Groening]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And so Gary wrote me a letter in this scrawled handwriting, and I thought because of the style of his work and everything, I thought he was a Japanese punk.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

His letter.

[Marc Maron]

Also a great painter.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah. A brilliant painter.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And then it turned out he was a very sweet Texan.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And we became really good friends, and we used to hang out together and we used to scheme. Like, how are we gonna break into pop culture?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And we'd sit at. At Astro Burger.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Matt Groening]

On. On Melrose and split a burger because we had so little money.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And. And. And scheme. And then he. He caught Peewee's Playhouse, you know.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Matt Groening]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

It was like.

[Matt Groening]

Oh, my God.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Did you go see those things earlier?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like before they were the show.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah. When it was at the ground. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

That was great. Did you see those?

[Marc Maron]

No.

[Matt Groening]

Oh, that was before your time.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It's great.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, it's great.

[Marc Maron]

What about Linda Berry?

[Matt Groening]

Linda Barry I met in college.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, really?

[Matt Groening]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

In Portland?

[Matt Groening]

No, in. Well, in. In Olympia.

[Marc Maron]

Evergreen.

[Matt Groening]

And I met her because I found out there was another girl in the dorms who had written to Joseph Heller.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Who had written and gotten a reply from Joseph Heller. So I had to. I had to track down the girl who had corresponded with the writer of Cat 22.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And I tracked her down, and it was Linda Barry.

[Marc Maron]

Wow.

[Matt Groening]

And she was unbelievable. And what she had done is she had written a fan letter to. To Heller and. And written on the return address, Ingrid Bergman. Because she thought that way he. He would actually open it up and read it.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

She proposed marriage to him. And did he read it? Yeah, he replied to her, and he said, I don't think there's room for the both of us in your dorm. So we became friends, and she surfaces.

[Marc Maron]

A very good comic artist.

[Matt Groening]

Oh, she's the best. Yeah, she is. My. She and I have gone around. Around the country and. And into India and to Australia, talking together, and I'm the straight man. She is so funny.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's great.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

All right. So the books come out, all the inhale books.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And you're starting to make a living.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

And you like LA better, Right? And how does. When did the Simpson panel start happening?

[Matt Groening]

Well, what happened was Polly Platt, the movie producer who used to be married to. Brilliant. Underrated. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Apparently wrote most of his stuff.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah. So she bought James L. Brooks an original piece of art by me called the Los Angeles Way of Life or something like that. In it. And it. And it was very dark.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And. And he had me come over to Paramount where he was located at the time, to see if we. There was something we could do together. And at the time, I lived in a little apartment house across the street from Paramount.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And my car had been towed away.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

So I had no car. So I, I walked over to Paramount.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And they wouldn't let me on the lot because I didn't have a car. Right, right. They said, go get your car and we'll let you on. I go, I don't know.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, that's. This is the meeting that's going to change your life. And you're at the gate and you can't get in.

[Matt Groening]

That was in 85, in 87 that the, the, the Fox network started, and they hired me to work on the Tracey ullman show.

[Marc Maron]

By 85. Did you have the meeting?

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, I had the meeting, but it didn't go anywhere.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Okay.

[Matt Groening]

You know, who was it with? James L. Brooks.

[Marc Maron]

So it was the first meeting with Brooks.

[Matt Groening]

It was the first meeting with Brooks.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But it didn't go anywhere.

[Matt Groening]

Well, I mean, you know, took two more years, and then he had a new show, the Tracey Ellman Show.

[Marc Maron]

And he remembered you.

[Matt Groening]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that's something. So it did go somewhere.

[Matt Groening]

No. Yeah, exactly. No, I talked to Jim Brooks.

[Marc Maron]

And you did the interstitials.

[Matt Groening]

Yes. And first they, I went into this meeting and they said, can you do two minute cartoons every week? And I said, no. Two minutes? That's too short. What can you do in two minutes? And then I said, well, I'll try. Oh, I've left out a part of the story. They wanted the life and Hell characters, but I found out that if I signed a deal that I would lose control.

[Marc Maron]

They don't know.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And so I, I made up the Simpsons in the waiting room. To meet Jim Brooks at Paramount? No, at Fox.

[Interviewer/Producer]

At Fox.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, so the second meeting.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, the second meeting. And. Yeah, the Simpsons was. And what do I do? I. I drew humans. I used to only draw animals.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And I. My dad, my mom.

[Marc Maron]

You know, where did, where did the inspiration for Bart come from?

[Matt Groening]

It's a combination of my older brother Mark and me.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And. And Joe Vermilia. The, the guy Joe. The kid with the finger up his butt.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But the, the way he looks. You just, you just came.

[Matt Groening]

Well, that was based on this, this idea that I had that the most identifiable, the most memorable cartoon characters are cartoon characters. You can, you can identify in silhouette.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

So if you look at the Simpsons, they're all identifiable in silhouette. And in fact, that's all what I try to do.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I heard somewhere that, you know, you pulled from that picture by Diane Arbus.

[Matt Groening]

Oh, yes, yes. So there's a picture of Diana with a kid. Of a kid.

[Marc Maron]

I was just looking at that last week. I sent it. I literally. I had no idea. And I sent that picture to a photographer friend of mine to make sure she had seen it. Because I was going through that book, that first Diana Arbus book. And that kid is so memorable.

[Matt Groening]

It's a very skinny kid in Central park with. Wearing shorts and. With one strapped kind of down. And he's holding a toy hand grenade.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And. And his hands are kind of. Kind of.

[Marc Maron]

And he's got that face of.

[Matt Groening]

He looks very agitated.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Okay. So I said in an interview that it was based on that as kind of a goof.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And I got a letter from that kid.

[Marc Maron]

Come on.

[Matt Groening]

Yes. Obviously, he was a grownup.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And he wrote. He said, thank you. That was me in that photo. I grew up. I became normal. I was. I'm a fine person. And he goes, the reason why I was making that face and I was so unhappy is because I had just lost my GI Joe doll. And so that's why. So there's the rest of the story.

[Marc Maron]

Isn't that something?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

But was it true that you had seen that and it wasn't?

[Matt Groening]

Of course.

[Marc Maron]

Were you Diane Arbus person?

[Matt Groening]

Of course.

[Marc Maron]

The best, right? The best. Same as Crumb. If you look at everybody with a Diane Arbus lens, it's a little sadder than Crumb, but there's a humanizing element there.

[Matt Groening]

Do you know the photographer? Vivian Meyer?

[Marc Maron]

Of course.

[Matt Groening]

Unbelievable.

[Marc Maron]

Unbelievable.

[Matt Groening]

Unbelievable. A nanny who took photos in her spare time.

[Marc Maron]

My late partner loved her. Lynn did. And, you know, and she had bought all the. I have the books, you know, she introduced me to her.

[Matt Groening]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

I studied a lot of photography. It did have a profound impact on me. Taking pictures became too complicated.

[Matt Groening]

You don't take pictures?

[Marc Maron]

Well, at the time when I was into it, it was before digital. So, like, if you wanted to take pictures and process them, There's a lot of math to it, in a way. Apertures and chemicals and papers and film speeds. It was too much for me. Now I've been told I should just get a little Leica and go for it.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You shoot my iPhone.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, you know, but. But learning about photography had a profound effect on me.

[Matt Groening]

Photography is great.

[Marc Maron]

That Richard Avedon book, the American West. Yeah, that's a killer.

[Matt Groening]

Right?

[Marc Maron]

But all those Arbus is great. Nan golden, too. I love her. Right, all right, so. So you've got your Bart, you've got your family, you've doodled it. Waiting to see Jim.

[Matt Groening]

They say, I come in, they say, can you do two minute cartoons for the Tracy show? And I'm thinking, that's impossible. But of course I say yes. And they call me up and they say, by the way, it's not two minutes, it's one minute. Oh, no. And then they say, oh, by the way, it's not one minute, it's two 30 second cartoons.

[Marc Maron]

So it's basically an animated single panel.

[Matt Groening]

And then. Yeah, and then they cut it even more. They said it's 415 second cartoons. So the beginning of the Simpsons is all based on 15 second little.

[Marc Maron]

And they're like one exchange.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, well, yeah. And I realized the only way to make people remember what they were seeing is if it had very, very heavy mayhem. Slapstick, physical, you know, so that's why Homer strangles Bart.

[Marc Maron]

And what was the experience in working with moving pictures?

[Matt Groening]

That was a blast.

[Marc Maron]

Did they just set you up with an animator or like, with. How did it work?

[Matt Groening]

Well, we, we made. We went through the motions of. Of contacting various animation studios, and it turns out that they chose the cheapest one.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Matt Groening]

And that was Klasky Chupo in Hollywood.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And they had. They were struggling and they hooked me up with three animators. David Silverman, he ended up creating the rules for how to draw the characters.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Matt Groening]

You know, so I didn't know, like, I would draw a bunch of spikes. And David S. Said, no, there are 10 spikes.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Oh, okay.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Was it always 10, even though you didn't know?

[Matt Groening]

I didn't. Well, it is. I think it is now.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

I don't count.

[Marc Maron]

So that's interesting. So he was the. He created.

[Matt Groening]

He. He made the rules.

[Marc Maron]

So from that, you know, what's the next turn?

[Matt Groening]

Auditioning? So I was assigned Dan Castlenetta. You said you have to work with Dan Castlenetta and you have to use Julie Kavner, who are. Who are members of the cast of the Tracy Ullman Show.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And. And. And then. So that only gate left two people to cast, and that was for Bart and for Lisa. And I think we saw maybe 10 people total. And Nancy Cartwright came in to audition for the part of Lisa, but she was Bart, so she became Bart. And Yardley came in to audition for Bart and she was Lisa. Okay, so that's it.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Matt Groening]

And their. They've been fantastic ever since.

[Marc Maron]

Forever.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

When did they say, like, we want to do a full show?

[Matt Groening]

They would show. As the Trace Hillman show went on, they would show these little short cartoons to the audience at the Tracey Ullman show while they were filming it on Friday nights. And they were a hit with all the people sitting in the bleachers. And the Fox executives were there going, this is actually getting laughs. And so they said, would you like to do a special? And Jim Brooks. And I said, no, we want to do 13.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And they said, how about four?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And the reason we were opposed to doing just one is because if it was successful, it'd be another year before we'd have another.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, exactly.

[Matt Groening]

But if we had 13 and they greenlit the show without a pilot.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

So there you go. That was.

[Marc Maron]

And what was on Fox at the time, that was what. Before it was just starting to do programming. Right. Really?

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, they were. They were not in the entire country.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

There was a lot of Forgetful Beans Baxter, I think, was one that.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Okay, yeah.

[Matt Groening]

They think of. And then Married with Children.

[Marc Maron]

That was a huge, huge.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And so in the early, kind of developmental meetings about 13 did Brooks bring the sitcom sensibility to it?

[Matt Groening]

Jim was brilliant from the beginning, very beginning. And he. And he basically said, okay, our mission is to make people forget they're watching a cartoon, to go for moments of real emotion. We know it's going to be cartoony, but let's go for moments of real, real emotion. And I agreed with that. I think that was a great idea. So that's what our mission was.

[Marc Maron]

So the assignment was emotion. You brought the fuck you. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Groening]

The underground Snarly.

[Marc Maron]

Right, right. I mean, like. But like, were you a malcontent your whole life?

[Matt Groening]

No, I was, you know.

[Marc Maron]

When you were a kid, did you get into trouble?

[Matt Groening]

I did get into trouble, but if there was another class clown in the room, I was fine.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

But if there wasn't, then I had.

[Interviewer/Producer]

To take that thing.

[Marc Maron]

Did you do any other performing, you know.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

You know, little things.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Oh, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Nothing that.

[Matt Groening]

When I was in. At the end of high school, my friends and I created a political party. We ran for office.

[Marc Maron]

What was the platform?

[Matt Groening]

It was. We were called the Teens for Decency.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Oh.

[Matt Groening]

And our. And our. And our slogan was, if you're against decency, what are you for? And because at the time, there was a Christian group called Young Life.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Who had Just started at our high school, and they're going around telling all the Jewish kids they were going to hell. So we created this parody group to make fun of them, and we all won. Oh, good.

[Marc Maron]

That's good.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So. Okay, so where did Simon come in?

[Matt Groening]

Sam. Simon was. Sam was. Was one of the writers and producers of the Tracy Ullman show, and he was the only one who had experience in animation. He had worked on the Fat Albert animated show.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I interviewed him when he was sick.

[Matt Groening]

Oh, you did?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Oh, I haven't heard that one.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it was good. You know, I interviewed him when he was, you know, pretty sick.

[Matt Groening]

He was incredible. One of the funniest, smartest guys I've ever. I've ever met. I work. He and I butted heads eventually, but at the time.

[Interviewer/Producer]

About what?

[Matt Groening]

Partly because of the amount of attention that I was getting. Yeah, I think that really bugged him because he was.

[Marc Maron]

He was functioning as head writer.

[Matt Groening]

He was the showrunner.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And he was great.

[Interviewer/Producer]

And he.

[Matt Groening]

And he knew everybody.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And. And brilliant. And he. He. He and I. But he and I used to be really good buddies. We'd go to the Lakers together.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

You know, and. And then it's an ego thing. There was. Yeah. But he was also very cynical about the show. So while we were doing the first 13 episodes every day, he'd say, 13 and out. 13 and out. He was absolutely sure the show was gonna fail. And he. And by the way, his judgment was probably astute and correct. The idea of it working was, you know, unlikely.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Why?

[Matt Groening]

Well, because there had never been an animated show in 25 years on. In primetime.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Matt Groening]

And that everybody said, this can't. You know, you can't have animation in prime.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Except for Garfield special. Right.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

But there. But I think one of the reasons why the Simpsons got on the air is because there were finally TV executives who were young enough to have remembered the Flintstones and the Jetsons and Johnny Quest. And so they said, oh, yeah, there can be animation at night.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And were you aware that you wanted to cross lines in pushy envelope?

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, yeah, of course. A little bit.

[Interviewer/Producer]

You know.

[Matt Groening]

You know, I wanted to be friendly enough so. But that people would. Would watch and. But I figured that kids would watch. I knew that we called it an adult show because if you called it.

[Marc Maron]

You wanted kids to watch.

[Matt Groening]

Well, we knew kids would watch no matter what it was.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

But if we called it a show for adults, then we could get away with more. With more wild jokes.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

But back at the very beginning, it was amazing how uptight even a network is, as loose as Fox was. We had a line, I think it was in the first episode, one of the early episodes, in which Homer says to Marge, hey, Marge, tonight will you wear your blue thing with the things?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And they said, you can't say that. We said, well, what does it mean? They couldn't say why.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And so did it have to be cut?

[Matt Groening]

No, it didn't.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, good.

[Matt Groening]

So we. Yeah, so we got. There are hilarious sensor notes that we.

[Marc Maron]

Did you keep them?

[Matt Groening]

I. I have them. A file of them. And they make great jokes. Reading on stage.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Have you done that?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Bart cannot say. Bart cannot hold a shotgun up to the Easter Bunny and say, in five minutes, either your eggs or your. Or your. Your brains are going to be in this basket.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, he can't say that.

[Matt Groening]

You can't say that. Yeah, he did.

[Marc Maron]

How much did the Lampoon have an effect on you?

[Matt Groening]

Huge. Huge. Yeah. When I was in high school, National Lampoon started, and that just reminded me.

[Marc Maron]

Of the dog cover.

[Matt Groening]

Oh, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Buy this magazine, shoot this dog.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

National Lampoon and Monty Python, I was only aware of in the form of record album.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

So, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But the Lampoon, because I kind of got hip to that in high school, too, and I was like, what is happening? This is where it's at.

[Matt Groening]

The Lampoon was amazing. And before the Lampoon, of course, there was Mad. Mad magazine.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Matt Groening]

Mad magazine. But even before that, Mad comics by Harvey Kurtzman.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Matt Groening]

Unbelievable.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, they're great.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah. Yep.

[Marc Maron]

But like Mad Magazine. Al Jaffee.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yep.

[Marc Maron]

And Don Martin.

[Matt Groening]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

The best.

[Matt Groening]

The best.

[Marc Maron]

Eric Gonies. Did he like. His were really good.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, he was great.

[Marc Maron]

Like, you know, he was dark.

[Matt Groening]

He was good. He was the best. He's the best drawer in the business.

[Marc Maron]

How. What was the name of the strip in.

[Matt Groening]

In Mad? He did these little. These little things in the margins.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And then he did other stuff. He actually. He actually did Simpsons comics at one point.

[Marc Maron]

He did, yes.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

He. Oh, you think he's the best, huh?

[Matt Groening]

I think he's the top, yes.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Oh, wow.

[Matt Groening]

As far as drawer.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Were you Al Jaffe guy?

[Matt Groening]

Yep. He came to. He visited the Simpsons. Yes.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That must be.

[Matt Groening]

That was huge.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, it was huge.

[Marc Maron]

How did the Simpsons become sort of a training ground for all these amazing comedy writers again?

[Matt Groening]

Was that Sam Right time? Yes, Sam. And Sam hired so many of them, you know, and he recognized talent, and Jim Brooks was encouraging of new talent. And you know, I don't know. How did we get Conan o'? Brien? How did we get Greg Daniels? How do we get all these guys?

[Marc Maron]

Dana Gould.

[Matt Groening]

Dana Gould. John Schwartzwelder.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Just unbelievable.

[Marc Maron]

Rob Cohen.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yes, yes.

[Matt Groening]

And. And David X. Cohen, who went on to do Futurama with me.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Groening]

So many. I actually thought, you know, I'm going to try to mention as many writers as I can. It's going to be boring. I'll mention their names. And then I looked it up. There's 142 Simpsons writers.

[Marc Maron]

I think one of the reasons I can't do it is not unlike what's going on, I think, in horror films today is that it provided a space for them to. To really take it out there. Like, you know, when you have to have humans talking and you're confined to what's possible with humans on a sitcom, you're fundamentally limited, no matter what you can do. Even if it's an elaborate sitcom like Seinfeld where you can change sets and you have all this money, but with. With a cartoon, I mean, you can literally do anything with jokes.

[Matt Groening]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

So why wouldn't they want to do that? I mean, it's like the best thing in the world for a writer, right?

[Matt Groening]

No, it's amazing because, you know, if you. If you actually filmed a Simpsons episode in live action.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And just depicted what we depict in. In animation form, you couldn't do it. It would be hundreds of millions of dollars.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So all these guys must have been living their best lives.

[Matt Groening]

No, it's the greatest thing. And also, very early on, we realized that. That this was a forum for different comedy styles. So there's all sorts of. There's puns and parodies and.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, whatever.

[Matt Groening]

Into whatever. We can break our own rules all the time.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

All you got to add is a little self consciousness to it.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Right. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's interesting. Right. And it keeps going. So in Futurama came when?

[Matt Groening]

Around 2000.

[Marc Maron]

And they're doing more of those now.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah, we're on our. In the middle of our next season. Whatever.

[Marc Maron]

And you're still actively engaged with all of it?

[Matt Groening]

Well, you know, you can't be in more than one place at one time. So I get to tell the people at the Simpsons, I'm going to work at Futurama.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Matt Groening]

And then vice versa. And then I just go home.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

So.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, But Jesus, it's like south park is getting there as well, but it just.

[Matt Groening]

Hundreds of episodes. Yeah, yeah. With South Park, I think with south park, certainly with With Futurama and Simpsons is almost 800. We're going to hear 800th. 800.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

Episodes too many.

[Marc Maron]

But you don't.

[Matt Groening]

But it's not. What I like about it is it's not a ghost ship. It's not. It's not. It's not. I love the Office. I love Seinfeld. But there are no new ones. There's no new ones.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but sometimes they become zombie ships before they're over.

[Matt Groening]

That's true.

[Marc Maron]

That's true.

[Matt Groening]

And sometimes you recover or the zombies come back. That's what I'm gonna stick to.

[Marc Maron]

But how much do. I mean. It becomes difficult for a group of writers to make sure that something hasn't been done before when there's 800.

[Matt Groening]

Oh my God. It is impossible. Yeah. We, as we do inadvertently repeat ourselves.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Groening]

It's. It's really hard.

[Marc Maron]

And what do you do? Are you in kind of tapped into what the audience is now or, or is it just.

[Matt Groening]

No, I'm.

[Marc Maron]

I just wonder.

[Matt Groening]

I'm. As a parent, I am because I have all these little kids.

[Marc Maron]

You have many little kids. You got.

[Matt Groening]

I had. Well, I have a. I have a couple of adult children.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And then I have a 12 year old. I have two 9 year olds, 2 and 27 year olds. So I have two sets of twins. That really kicks the number up. And then I have a five year old, three year old and a one and a half year old.

[Marc Maron]

How many total?

[Matt Groening]

Ten.

[Marc Maron]

Really?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

With how many different women?

[Matt Groening]

Two.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, okay.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So. And everybody gets along.

[Matt Groening]

Do your cats get along? Not right now, no. But by the way, just one bad one.

[Marc Maron]

One bad one.

[Matt Groening]

I have, I have my friend Colette who follows your.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

The story of your cats and, and, and, and is very proud that you're making a special home for Charlie out here.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I was going to give him to somebody else, but then I realized like. Well, I guess he could live out here.

[Matt Groening]

My friend Colette wanted me to tell you that she has pigs. She rescues pigs. And that's what she did with her pigs. And so she's, she thinks that you should treat your cats the way she treats her pigs. Separate them.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

All right.

[Matt Groening]

Well, you know, I also have three cats.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Uh huh.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

This one just went bad on me. I don't know what the hell happened. He was okay and then he just started beating up on the old guy and it's just like there's no stopping it. He's just beating up on this old cat. He's not even that old. He's nine and Charlie's three and fucking. The old guy's got. He's nine, he's got one kidney. He's a sweet guy. And Charlie just can't not think about beating the shit out of him.

[Matt Groening]

It's really hard to herd cats. It really is.

[Marc Maron]

No, they're fucking monsters. I got two good ones. The one I thought was a moron turns out to be the best cat I have.

[Matt Groening]

I had these three cats that were all rescues, and one was a gray tabby named Frosty. And he spent a lot of the time outdoors. And it turns out he was going over next door and eating other people's food. And he grew enormous. Just really fatty waddling around. And then I got a call from the purina Cat Chow Co. Co. And they said, do you have any cats? We're doing a Purina Catch House celebrity calendar. And I said, yes, I do. And they came over with a photographer and I hid the other two normal looking cats. And they didn't want to do it, you know, they had to have a consultation. And so they did it and they posed them on the kitchen counter in front of a frame portrait of Bart trying to hide his body. It did not work. It's. And if you look at the calendar, you see all these beautiful cats, and then you see mine and everybody bursts out laughing. And then the other thing was, they asked me to write a little bit about my cat and everybody else wrote, mittens is more than a cat. Mittens is my best friend. Sure. And I wrote, we try to keep Frosty on a diet, but it's really hard when he sleeps inside the cat food bag. They wouldn't print that.

[Marc Maron]

It's so funny that there's a beauty standard with cats, too.

[Matt Groening]

Well, and then. Okay, so, right. Your cats are beautiful and wonderful and they should be famous. Right. Well, I got a call a few months later saying, we saw your cat in the Purina Cat calendar. We'd like to use him as a model for an ad. And I said, fantastic, you know, it's about time, but yes. And they said, well, before you say yes, we just want you to know it's an ad for diet cat food and he's the before picture.

[Marc Maron]

Did you let him use them?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yep.

[Matt Groening]

Of course.

[Marc Maron]

You got to get the cats their star time. What's the big plan now? What are you doing with your life?

[Matt Groening]

I spend most of my time trying to make sure that my kids, you know, know I'm there.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And, and, you know, take them to school every Morning.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Matt Groening]

I line them up in front of the garage every morning and. And take their photo. So I've got their entire lives.

[Marc Maron]

So it's like documented. Eight that are still.

[Matt Groening]

I'm. I'm only taking six to school.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

That's crazy. How'd you get two pairs of twins?

[Matt Groening]

The magic of fertility drugs. Yes. And. And they're a blast. They're so much fun.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And they, you know, like. Who wants to hear about other people's kids? Well, yeah. You know, they're great.

[Marc Maron]

I don't have any.

[Matt Groening]

They're great.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah, they're great.

[Matt Groening]

They're. I. My three year old went through a phase where he just was saying, why? Why, why everything. Any answer, Say why?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And so finally I learned to say, why not?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Oh, good.

[Matt Groening]

And that stopped him.

[Marc Maron]

Throw the wrench in.

[Matt Groening]

Right. Why not? And he just, like, pondered that for a while. And then later I said, why'd you throw your milk on the floor? And he said, why not?

[Marc Maron]

Well, it's great talking to you, Matt.

[Matt Groening]

Thanks, man.

[Interviewer/Producer]

You feel good about it?

[Matt Groening]

I do. Thank you. So you're quitting?

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

So I did my life in hell strip. For 32 years.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

For, you know. And it was such a relief.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

To stop.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

To not have that one extra deadline.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Matt Groening]

And you think, oh, I'm gonna lose everything.

[Marc Maron]

No, you get time.

[Matt Groening]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I just got to not be afraid of it, you know?

[Matt Groening]

Don't be afraid. It's gonna be great. You can honestly do it again. Sure.

[Marc Maron]

I'll take your word for it.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, I. I do not feel regret about it.

[Matt Groening]

Right.

[Marc Maron]

Thanks, man.

[Matt Groening]

Thank you.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Wow.

[Marc Maron]

There you go. Futurama season 13 is now on Hulu. The Simpsons airs Sundays on Fox and streams on Hulu. We're back on Thursday. No guest. I'll make up for what I didn't talk about today. I feel. I think I'll feel a little better. And now just. The guitar is just sort of like. It's all. It's all falling apart now. Good timing. Boomer lives Monkey and La Fonda Cat angels everywhere.