S3 EP 7 - Consciousness of Guilt

Summary

Podcast Summary: American Nightmares – Gardens of Evil: Inside The Zion Society Cult

Episode: S3 EP7 – "Consciousness of Guilt"
Host: Paul Wagner (Gamut Podcast Network)
Release Date: November 15, 2022

---

Episode Overview

This gripping episode delves into the crucial turning points in the investigation of Giles Warrick, the man identified as the Potomac River Rapist and the accused murderer of Christine Mirzaion in 1998. The narrative moves from the detectives’ pivotal DNA collection at Warrick’s South Carolina home—an event now fiercely debated in court—through his arrest, interrogation, and preparations for trial. Wagner exposes the raw details of law enforcement’s strategy, explores evolving legal and ethical challenges around forensic genealogy, and brings victim and survivor stories powerfully to the fore—all while reflecting on the painstaking road to justice.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Critical DNA Collection and Defense Disputes

• Detectives obtained Giles Warrick’s DNA under the pretense of a casual interview (03:24–08:54).
• Warrick stated:

  “Yeah, I have no choice.” – Giles Warrick (06:18)

• Defense claimed coercion, arguing that Warrick didn’t feel free to refuse the swab. Prosecutors countered that consent was freely given.
• Detective Williams clarified during the recording:

  “You do have a choice. I don’t want you to feel like we’re holding you down doing it.” – Det. Todd Williams (07:18)

2. Judge’s Decision and Legal Ramifications

• Judge Milton Lee ruled the DNA was obtained voluntarily; the evidence would stand at trial (11:58–12:59).
• Judge Lee noted Warrick’s lack of surprise at the detectives’ visit and explained the legal rationale for admitting the evidence.

3. Search, Arrest, and Discovery of the ‘Consciousness of Guilt’ Letter

• After the DNA matched, Warrick was placed under overnight surveillance while police readied arrest and search warrants (13:40–18:44).

• Arrest followed unusual activity at Warrick's home early in the morning.

• Police found a 1998 Washington Post and a heartfelt letter to his fiancé, read in court to demonstrate his awareness of impending consequences (17:44).

  Excerpt from the letter:

  “I am so sorry things ended this way. ... Please forgive me. ... I hope you don’t hate me. Love you.” – Giles Warrick, letter to fiancée (17:44–18:44)

4. Interrogation Post-Arrest: Denial and the Good Cop Tactics

• During interrogation, detectives pressed Warrick for confessions (18:44–31:39).

• Detectives explained the overwhelming DNA evidence and suggested he could lessen the burden for his family by confessing.

  Notable Moments:

  • “How can you explain your DNA on 10 cases, man?” – Det. Todd Williams (30:44)
  • Warrick repeatedly denied any involvement:

    “I didn’t do this, so I’m not guilty on any of this stuff.” – Giles Warrick (28:33)

  • Detectives invoked empathy with:

    “You honestly could change the course of this for everyone in your family if you sat in here and took responsibility...” – Det. Todd Williams (30:08)

  • Warrick ultimately asks for an attorney, ending the interview.

5. Suppression Battle: What Evidence Stays In or Out

• Judge suppressed the letter found in the search (the ‘consciousness of guilt’ letter), but ruled that DNA evidence stands (31:41).

6. Forensic Genealogy and Legal Innovations

• The episode details how detectives used a relative’s DNA in public ancestry databases to identify Warrick, with expert input on ethical and legislative oversight (37:57–42:47).
• Chief John Fitzgerald:

  “A genealogy investigation ... is using simply public records, ... and sometimes that DNA tells us exactly who the bad guy is, because that guy’s DNA is already in some database somewhere. ... So for those who get anxious ... we have no access to and no interest in anything that any information DNA may hold outside of identifying the bad person who did a bad thing.” (37:57–42:47)

7. Discovery Details and Insight into Witnesses

• Review of court discovery letters reveals evidence streams, including work records, grand jury transcripts, and communications with women linked to Warrick by DNA (42:47–48:59).
• Revealed ‘Witness 11,’ mother of Warrick’s children, initially denied he could be guilty, expressing confusion, fear, and a sense of betrayal by law enforcement.

8. Victims Remembered: Honoring Christine Mirzaion

• Emotional testimony from Christine’s close friends and family underscores the personal toll of the crime (48:59–54:58).

  Notable Quote:

  “I know there are things all around our house that are from Christine. ... It’s something I think about a lot, that we’ve talked about a lot when we first met. ... I feel strongly that she needs her day in court.” – Lauren Gillespie (Christine’s friend, 49:25–50:28)

• Christine’s legacy: Her scientific fellowship now bears her name, bringing young scientists to D.C.—a poignant reminder of her lasting impact.

  “She was a really unusual, interesting person... She lived life with the highest level of passion ... It’s just so sad her life ended the way it did in this kind of meaningless way.” – David Gillespie (Christine’s partner, 52:31–55:00)

9. Trial Outlook & Reflection

• The trial was set for late November 2022, expected to rely on DNA, forensic genealogy, and testimonial evidence from a wide cast of professionals and victims’ family members (55:29).

---

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Giles Warrick on being asked for DNA:
  “Yeah, I have no choice.” (06:18)
• Detective emphasizes consent:
  “You do have a choice. I don’t want you to feel like we’re holding you down doing it.” – Det. Todd Williams (07:18)
• Paul Wagner’s observation on Warrick’s demeanor:
  “What I find extraordinary about this tape is that Giles Warwick never seems surprised by the detectives’ visit. ... It’s almost as if it’s a visit he’s been expecting for years.” (11:58–12:59)
• On the importance of the letter (in court):
  “The letter the judge in the case called a consciousness of guilt.” (46:59)
• Victims’ advocate Lauren Gillespie:
  “I feel strongly that she needs her day in court.” (50:22)

---

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Start of DNA collection interaction: 03:24
• Crucial swab exchange (“I have no choice”): 06:18
• Judge’s decision on evidence admissibility: 11:58–12:59
• Police discovery and contents of the letter: 17:44–18:44
• Interrogation and confession attempts: 18:44–31:41
• Expert explanation of forensic genealogy: 37:57–42:47
• Discovery review and witness context: 42:47–48:59
• Victim remembrance and emotional impact: 48:59–54:58
• Closing reflections and look ahead to trial: 55:29

---

Tone and Language

Throughout, Paul Wagner maintains a careful, factual, and empathetic tone, letting the voices of detectives, witnesses, and family come through authentically:

• Persuasive and detailed when discussing legal and scientific challenges.
• Raw and compassionate in sharing the voices of survivors and the loved ones of the murdered.
• Introspective and questioning when considering how justice is pursued and achieved.

---

Summary

This episode of American Nightmares immerses the listener in the long pursuit of justice for Christine Mirzaion and other victims, laying bare the intricacies of detective work, the evolution of forensic techniques, and the deep, enduring impact on those left behind. With audio from interviews and court proceedings, expert insight on forensic genealogy, and heartfelt remembrances of Christine, "Consciousness of Guilt" offers a richly layered narrative that is both investigative and profoundly human.

Transcript

[Steven Deaner]

Let's face it, more people are seeing UFOs, and some of these sightings completely defy explanation.

[Paul Wagner]

You have things that going hundreds of knots under the water, anti gravity, but

[Steven Deaner]

it has to be something like our own secret tech or maybe even adversarial, right?

[Paul Wagner]

So the claim that it's our tech

[Detective Todd Williams]

or that it's an adversarial tech. No, it is not.

[Steven Deaner]

This is Steven Deaner from the hit podcast uap. And I have conversations like that every week as I keep up with all the latest relating to UFO topics. Just search UAP, wherever you get your podcasts. As we continue to ask the question, are we alone in the cosmos?

[Detective Allison Dupois]

We are recording.

[Paul Wagner]

At the beginning of the last episode, I told you about what happened down in Conway, South Carolina, on the day detectives showed up to question Giles Warwick, the man they suspected of being the Potomac River Rapist. As you know, that day was critical. Warwick agreed to let detectives swab his cheek for DNA, which finally linked him to Christine's killing and the rapes of several other women years before that. But in the time I've been working on this podcast, I learned a lot more about what happened that day, down to exactly what Warrick told police when they showed up at his door. As they got out of the car that morning, the detectives turned on a tape recorder. That's what you're listening to now.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

Yeah.

[Detective Todd Williams]

How you doing, sir?

[Paul Wagner]

Hey, you Mr. Wark?

[Giles Warwick]

Yes.

[Paul Wagner]

How you doing? I'm taking Seattle County Police. Take a pull from the poi. I'm Detective Williams.

[Detective Todd Williams]

How you doing, sir?

[Paul Wagner]

They'd like to speak with you. Anyone stepping out?

[Detective Todd Williams]

Is it possible to like to find somewhere to sit down and talk for a minute and explain what's going on?

[Giles Warwick]

Sure.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

Do you mind? Come on in.

[Detective Todd Williams]

Thanks.

[Paul Wagner]

Giles Warrick is set to go on trial later this year as the case has gotten closer to picking a jury. This first conversation with Warrick is the subject of an intense argument between the defense and prosecutors. Warwick's lawyer is a man named Stephen Mercer. I'll tell you more about him later. Mercer argued the evidence collected by the detectives that day, that is the DNA from a buccal swab, should be thrown out because the investigators, D.C. police Detective Todd Williams and Montgomery County Police Detective Allison dupois used a ruse to enter the house and that Warrick felt he didn't really have a choice with whether or not to give up his DNA. Now, prosecutors obviously saw things differently. They said there's no doubt Warwick consented to the swab of his cheek and that Warwick was not coerced into giving up his DNA. The detectives were cordial and calm. In September of 2022, during a motions hearing in D.C. superior Court, prosecutors played the interview so the judge could hear exactly what was said. Since it was introduced as evidence, Judge Milton Lee agreed to release it to me. And now you can hear the conversation as well.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

So we're down here. We've got Detective Scales here with Horry County. We're from Montgomery County, Maryland. At least I am. And Detective Williams here is from D.C. and we just wanted to talk to you just about some things, you know, way back in the day, things like that. So did you. I don't know. Did you ever live in Maryland? How long you been down here in South Carolina?

[Giles Warwick]

I've been here almost a year now.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

Almost a year. Okay. Where'd you live prior to that?

[Giles Warwick]

In Frederick County.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

In Frederick. Okay. All right.

[John Fitzgerald]

How about.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

Where were you? Are you from Frederick County?

[Giles Warwick]

I'm actually from Oxon Hill.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

Okay. Oxon Hill. All right.

[Paul Wagner]

The interview is taking place in Warwick's living room. Detective Todd Williams is sitting on a love seat next to Warrick and the other two detectives, Allison Dupois and Horry County Detective Brian S.C. are sitting together on a nearby couch. Detectives spend a few minutes asking Warwick about where he grew up and where he's lived since the early 90s. They want to know where he worked and whether that work took him into Georgetown and other parts of Washington, D.C. warrick tells them he worked at utility systems installing electric cables underground, and that he also had a landscaping business in the 90s. Then the conversation shifts. You'll hear some rustling on the audio. The recording was done secretly. South Carolina is a one party consent state, meaning Giles Warwick didn't know he was being recorded.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

So I guess just explaining a little bit why we're. How we're. How we got here and why we want to talk to you. Okay, so we had a series of incidents back in the 90s.

[Paul Wagner]

Okay.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

We had some sexual assaults back in the 90s. And what we do is we take whatever DNA may have been in the case, and it's been cold, right? We had no more leads. We had nothing. So we've used a technique that's kind of like forensic genealogy. And we've come to a bunch of people that may fit in our. Where we need them to fit in this family tree. Okay? And when I say bunch, it's a bunch, okay? So, you know, we're talking to a lot of people and we're just. We're here to Just talk to. Talk to everybody that may or may not fit. You know, like, we have to narrow down. Right.

[Detective Todd Williams]

So what we're trying to do is just eliminate people.

[Paul Wagner]

That's D.C. detective Todd Williams.

[Detective Todd Williams]

And so the easiest way to eliminate people is we have DNA. It's just to take a sample from whoever we talk to. We test it against what we have. It takes a couple, six, eight weeks, and then we'll know one way or another. And it's easy just to eliminate. If you're willing to give us a sample, it's just a Q tip. We put it in a box, we send it in. It takes, like, a couple months. We'll call you, we'll eliminate you, and then we just move on about our business. If you're willing to give us a box, we can just do it, and we'll be out of your hair.

[Giles Warwick]

Yeah, I have no choice.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

Okay.

[Paul Wagner]

Warwick says I have no choice. But this is a crucial part of the tape. Warwick's defense attorney has argued to the court that it shows coercion. Listen closely. Here's the rest of the exchange.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

So, like, it's just a Q tip. I'm gonna go one cheek, the other cheek. And Detective Scales is gonna do it just because we're in his jurisdiction. So it's like we just have to cover all of our.

[Paul Wagner]

The detectives don't immediately respond to Warrick saying he has no choice. Instead, Detective dupois explains how the swab is going to work and says another. Another detective with Horry county is going to take one, too, since it's his jurisdiction.

[Detective Todd Williams]

Can you give us, like, a good number to call you?

[Paul Wagner]

The audio gets a little muffled here. That's Detective Williams asking for Warwick's phone number so he can call him with the results. And then Detective Williams says this when

[Detective Todd Williams]

you said you don't have. You do have a choice. I don't want you to feel like we're holding down doing it.

[John Fitzgerald]

We just.

[Paul Wagner]

If you.

[Detective Todd Williams]

If you're volunteering, it's.

[John Fitzgerald]

That's.

[Detective Todd Williams]

It's the easiest way to do it. But I'm not, You know, I just. You know, I don't want you to make it seem like we're twisting your arm. We just, you know, if you're willing to do it, we appreciate it, and so it's the easiest way to do it.

[Paul Wagner]

So.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

Ms. Warwick, can you spell your first name for me?

[Giles Warwick]

Giles. G, I, L, E, S. Okay.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

And your middle name?

[Paul Wagner]

Daniel.

[Giles Warwick]

D, A, N, I, E, L and

[Detective Allison Dupois]

W. A, R, R, I, C, K. Yes.

[Paul Wagner]

As the investigators Prepare to swab Warwick's cheek. They engage in small talk.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

Well, get out of your hair.

[Giles Warwick]

Just dressed and just start to get hot in here.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

It's gonna be cold this week, I think, right? Cold snack you guys are getting. I think we're getting that up north, too.

[Paul Wagner]

But tomorrow morning, supposed to be freezing. Our version of freezing.

[Giles Warwick]

Yeah, I'm trying to figure this one out. Wait a minute here. This is not cold.

[Paul Wagner]

It'll get cold in a few years.

[Detective Todd Williams]

That's part of the point of moving down here is the weather, right.

[Giles Warwick]

Well, I'm 60 years old, you know, need to slow down.

[Paul Wagner]

I'm just gonna swab the inside of both sides of your cheek. Then the detective from Maury County.

[John Fitzgerald]

That's it.

[Paul Wagner]

She's gonna do one as well.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

The time

[Detective Todd Williams]

at a 48.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

What's the date today? Where are. I don't even know what day it is.

[Giles Warwick]

It's. What?

[Detective Allison Dupois]

Thank you.

[Paul Wagner]

After they swab Warwick's cheek, the detectives continue to ask a few more questions. They ask about his family. Remember, investigators knew from the work of Officer Steve Smugareski that the unknown subject they were looking for was the son of a man named Daniel Parker Swann. Detective Williams was curious whether Warrick could tell him who his father was.

[Detective Todd Williams]

So you said your mom's still alive and your dad had passed.

[Giles Warwick]

I've never met my dad.

[Paul Wagner]

Have you hadn't?

[Giles Warwick]

No.

[Detective Todd Williams]

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Your mom never told you who your dad was or do you know who he is?

[Giles Warwick]

They, you know, when you're younger, they tell you, you hear these stories, but then after you get older, you get something you never had.

[Paul Wagner]

The audio gets hard to hear. There's some shuffling of papers. Warwick says he heard stories about who his dad was when he was younger, but he says you can't miss something you never had. The investigators ask a few more questions about where he lived in Montgomery county and about his family. The interview is winding down.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

Any questions for us?

[Giles Warwick]

No.

[Detective Todd Williams]

So we got your phone number. It's like I said, it's probably going to take, you know, six, six, eight weeks. Once we know what we got, then we'll, we'll give you a call and, you know, just as a courtesy to let you know the results are because what we do with everybody.

[Paul Wagner]

So.

[Detective Todd Williams]

Okay, but just, just, you know, expect a call and, you know, at some point and it'll either be a her number or 202 number and just let you know what's going on.

[Giles Warwick]

Okay.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

I'm going to leave you my card.

[Detective Todd Williams]

Can I write my number on the

[Detective Allison Dupois]

back of it, too? I'm sorry.

[Paul Wagner]

According to the full tape, the whole visit lasted no more than 24 minutes. At the end, you heard Detective Williams say it was probably going to take six to eight weeks to get results. But as we told you in episode six, Officer Smugareski and another officer were already in Conway waiting to rush that sample back to the lab in Montgomery County. Now, just weeks before the trial begins, I can tell you who won the argument on the DNA. On November 4, I was the only person in the courtroom gallery when Judge Milton Lee issued his ruling. It was just after 2 o' clock in the afternoon, and everyone in the courtroom was wearing a mask, including the judge. Giles Warrick was sitting next to his attorney, dressed in a jail issued orange jumpsuit. And as he began to explain his decision, Judge Lee sat back in his chair and put his hands together. To me, it appeared he wasn't relying on any notes as he told Warwick's attorney, Stephen Mercer, that he was convinced the detectives had not coerced Warwick into giving up his DNA. From the recorded interview, Judge Lee said it was clear Warrick had done it voluntarily. In particular, he said Detective Williams had clearly told Warrick he had a choice. Judge Lee also said Warrick was not in custody at the time, and the detectives were under no obligation to tell him they were also investigating the murder of Christine Mirzaion. What I find extraordinary about this tape is is that Giles Warwick never seems surprised by the detective's visit. He doesn't immediately demand to know what they're doing at his door so early in the morning. And when they tell him they were investigating a string of sexual assaults, he seemingly has no reaction. And at the end of the interview, when the cops ask him if he has any questions, he says no. It's almost as if it's a visit he's been expecting for years.

[Steven Deaner]

Hey, it's Steven Deener from the hit podcast uap. And you never know who might show up to talk to me about the alien topic. Like Snooki from the Jersey Shore.

[Paul Wagner]

You literally are my favorite UAP alien UFO podcast.

[Steven Deaner]

Or Nick Pope from the popular show

[Paul Wagner]

Ancient Aliens from the temple walls in Egypt. The way in which there are similarities between that and how scientists now think we might open a wormhole.

[David Gillespie]

It's uncanny.

[Steven Deaner]

Find out why millions of others have already downloaded uap and listen now. Just by searching uap, wherever you get your podcast,

[Paul Wagner]

You already know what happened after detectives got the DNA sample at Warwick's house in South Carolina. But thanks to hundreds of pages of court filings. Now we also know exactly how the arrest went down, what police found when they searched Warrick's house, and what he told detectives Du Poy and Williams when he came face to face with them again, this time handcuffed, in a police interview room in Horry County, South Carolina. Here's some of what I learned. By midnight of the day police first interviewed Warrick, the DNA evidence that had been rushed to Montgomery county had come back a match. An arrest warrant was written up. But detectives also needed another warrant, a search warrant for Warwick's house. And at 1:15am Woke up a judge in Conway for his signature. For hours, ever since Smuggs and another officer left with the swabs, Warrick and the house on Oak Log Lake Road had been under covert surveillance. At around 2 o' clock in the morning, not long after the judge signed off on the arrest warrant, one of the officers keeping an eye on the house noticed a light come on. Then they saw a man come out of the house carrying something in his hand and walking toward a tan pickup parked in the driveway. The man went into the driver's side door for a few minutes, but then he went back into the house. Now, I've learned that after police got the warrant, they had planned to arrest Warwick at around six o' clock the following morning. At around the time they knew he usually left for landscaping jobs. But the fact that he was up and about in the middle of the night caused police to rethink their plans to move up the arrest. Police from Horry county sprang into action, returning to the house in Conway with their blue lights flashing. It's now about 20 hours after the detectives first knocked on Warwick's door. Police surround his house on Oak Log Lane. From near the front door, one of the detectives sees Warwick inside the house in the kitchen, reaching into the cabinet above the oven. Detectives knocked and announced themselves. Now, it's unclear if police forced their way inside or if Warwick opened the door for them. He seemed to be right at the door when police made entry. Maybe he was getting ready to leave. Then there's some kind of a scuffle. One of the officers takes Warwick to the ground. Some glass figurines by the door get knocked over. During the arrest, Warrick is in handcuffs and taken outside. Then the search begins. Three detectives and two sergeants go through the house, with a sergeant from D.C. telling the others what they're looking for. In the kitchen, the officers say they found a Washington post newspaper dated 1998, as well as a Separate newspaper article from the same year. We don't know the specific date of the paper or what articles it contained, but 1998 was the year Christine was killed. They also found that letter. I've already told you about the letter Giles Warwick wrote to his fiance. It was found tucked between two boxes of freezer bags inside a cabinet. During Warwick's preliminary hearing, Detective Williams read parts of it from the stand, but I'd never seen the whole thing, and I've always wondered what it said. I found it buried in one of the documents filed in the case last spring. Remember, this is what Warrick wrote to his fiance just moments before he was arrested. It reads in full, I am so sorry things ended this way. I left you in a mess, money and house. But I never meant for this to happen. All I wanted to do is love you, marry you and be happy. Please forgive me. Please. You are my love and it's been that way since the day we met. Please don't cry and take care of yourself. All my junk is yours. Please sell it to help pay something. I know it's not enough, but there's nothing that I can do. Love you so much. All the titles have been signed, so a couple of grand is better than nothing. Missing you, all the mess you are about to go through. I hope you don't hate me. Love you. Meanwhile, Giles Warwick has been taken to a nearby police station where Detectives Allison Dupois and Todd Williams are waiting. At this point, it's a little after 3am.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

All right, man.

[Paul Wagner]

Giles?

[Giles Warwick]

Yes.

[Detective Todd Williams]

Are you right handed or left handed?

[Giles Warwick]

Right hand.

[Detective Todd Williams]

Well, we have to. We'll get through this. Obviously know who we are from this morning.

[Paul Wagner]

This recording comes from an interview with police after Warrick was arrested that night when he came face to face with Williams and Du Pois again, this time handcuffed in a police interview room in Horry County, South Carolina.

[Detective Todd Williams]

We want to continue to talk to you a little bit more in depth about what we were talking about this morning.

[Paul Wagner]

That's Detective Williams.

[Detective Todd Williams]

At this point, you obviously realize that you're under arrest. And before we go into stuff and talk to you, we have to read you your rights. And we hope that you want to talk to us because we kind of want to get through this thing and kind of explain what's going on. Maybe there's some stuff you can talk to us about. But just so we, you know, so you know that, you know, you are under arrest and I'm going to read you your rights and then we'll go from There. Okay. You are under arrest. Before we ask you any questions, you must understand what your rights are.

[Paul Wagner]

Detective Williams reads him his rights. It's a long list.

[Detective Todd Williams]

Do you wish to answer any questions?

[Giles Warwick]

I need to know what is going on.

[Detective Todd Williams]

And so. And this is. And that's what, we're going to explain everything to you. And so if you're willing to talk to us, we're going to lay it all out for you. And so you just have to be willing to talk to us. So if you, you know, at any point, if you decide you don't want to talk to us, that's cool, we'll stop and, you know, we'll go about our business. We want to be able to explain this to you. So are you willing to answer any questions without having an attorney present? Yes or no? If you can just do me a favor and sign right there. You're at the tiger, Callie.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

Yep. 3:05 on the 13th.

[Paul Wagner]

That's 3:05 in the morning or 21 hours after they first knocked on his door.

[Detective Todd Williams]

And again, if you don't remember my name from earlier, my name is Todd Williams and this is Allison Dupois. Obviously, we're the detectives who came and spoke to you this morning and, you know, understand the nature of the circumstances. I hope you can understand that, like, what we told you about the. It might take some time, six to eight weeks or whatever was, you know, we, we expected to get the results from the DNA test a little bit quicker, but we didn't, we didn't know what kind of mind frame you were going to be in, so we just wanted to, you know, we just kind of wanted to keep. Leave it kind of low key like we did, and so that you wouldn't be, you know, if it did come back as a, as a match, which obviously we're back here and you're under.

[Paul Wagner]

Warwick tells the detectives he was not trying to escape when he was leaving the house that night. Instead, he says he needed to go to Frederick, Maryland, for a worker comp claim he had made. Detective Williams seems surprised and mentions the letter they had found in the house, the one addressed to his fiance.

[Detective Todd Williams]

I mean, you don't mention anything like that. It seems like it was a surprise that you were leaving just kind of abruptly and like, you know, like, like, honestly, like this, this whole thing, we want to, you know, understand what's going on and we want to, if possible, save like, your family, your, you know, her, everybody, like, like, embarrassment and like, the hardship that they're going to go through behind this, and we're willing to do whatever we can do. We're hoping that you're willing to talk to us about what was going on back then and why maybe some of these things were happening. But the reality of this case is that it's, it's, you know, there's DNA that links all the cases together that we're talking about. And my DNA with all of this. Yeah, well, yeah. And so, you know, like, like I said, it's, you know, this, this is going to be a very hard road for you. It's going to be a difficult time for your family.

[Paul Wagner]

Then the two start asking about Warwick's family again, specifically his father. The 60 year old again tells the detectives he never knew his father and was never curious about who he was. The questioning appears to be important to the detectives since the familial link, according to an affidavit in the case, came from Warwick's father, Daniel Parker Swann, a married man who apparently had an affair with Warwick's mother. Warwick says he heard rumors growing up from kids in the neighborhood about who his dad was, but he said he never knew for certain. That would mean the detectives, using forensic genealogy to build the family tree that would eventually find the accused Potomac river rapist may have known more about his own background than he did. The irony is striking. The two detectives then asked Warwick whether he followed news coverage back in the 90s of what police were then calling the North Potomac Rapist. Warwick said he had not. He also denied knowing anything about the 1998 murder of Christine Marzion and said he hadn't heard about it on the news. Detective Du Pois then asked Warrick how his DNA came to be at so many crime scenes.

[Detective Allison Dupois]

So, like Detective Williams was saying, you know, we have these cases and I'm just gonna just kind of briefly explain what the Montgomery county cases were and how we. Why we know that we have your DNA. Okay? These are cases that person broke into a residence, okay, When a woman was home and sexually assaulted her. And. And that's where we're getting this DNA, okay? We're not getting it from outside, we're not getting it from a car door. We're not getting it from anything like that. So it's very clear to us where we found this DNA that is linked to you, okay? Like, that's not really up for discussion. It is what it is, okay? But these are cases that really have affected people, especially women in Montgomery County. And it's like, this is why we do this. And I think looking at that letter that you wrote. I mean, you clearly, you know, love your fiance. I know you've got kids, and I can see that, you know, you're a different person than you were probably back then. I mean, I didn't know you back then, but these things that happened back then doesn't seem to me the same guy that I'm looking at right now and the person that wrote that letter. So we're sitting here, we're trying to find some way, some reason to say, okay, he did these awful things, but, you know, he was going through a terrible time, or there's something in your past that prompted this, you know, and maybe something has changed since then. You've gotten a hold of it, and it's just. It's part of that. You know, everybody has that. We need to know why. And I think. I mean, right now you're sitting here, and I'm sure a lot's going through your head, you know, but this is. This is why we want to sit down and talk with you, because we may not have another chance. Okay? And this is. This is what we're here for. This is why we came down to South Carolina for it.

[Paul Wagner]

Okay?

[Detective Allison Dupois]

So I don't know if there's any one particular incident that you remember that you can talk about.

[Giles Warwick]

No, I didn't do this. I'm not gonna say. I said. I'm not gonna sit there and say I did this. No, I did.

[Paul Wagner]

Is there.

[Detective Todd Williams]

Is there? How are we gonna explain that your DNA is.

[Giles Warwick]

I have no idea.

[Detective Todd Williams]

I get it. There was one scene there. Maybe there's some happenstance that would explain.

[Steven Deaner]

But it's.

[Detective Todd Williams]

You know, it's a lot of scenes.

[John Fitzgerald]

It's.

[Detective Todd Williams]

You know, Montgomery county had, I think there was like, six or eight cases or something. In D.C. we had two cases, and ultimately it ended with something bad happening to the final woman, like she was killed.

[Paul Wagner]

Detective Williams then seems to shift tactics, taking more of a sympathetic tone. He mentions how this is going to impact his family. He mentions the letter Warwick left for his fiance. You're essentially saying, I'm sorry for what you're about to go through. Detective Williams says, it sounds like you knew this was about to happen. Williams sticks with the sympathetic good cop tone. He tells work they want to understand what he was going through back in the day. You're obviously a different person now. Maybe what happened in D.C. was a little bit out of character. But 27 minutes into the interview, Warrick is giving up nothing and maintains his innocence.

[Detective Todd Williams]

I've talked to a lot of people. She's talked to a lot of people. And it's the hardest thing for people to do is to get over the hump of accepting and acknowledging what things they might have done that were wrong. And it's really, most of this is about people judging them and whether they're bad or good or, you know, this is about things that you did in your life that was, you know, that was. There were bad things. But is this the person you're going to be defined as? Or is there an explanation that you can tell us about? And it, you know, I mean, you're the only person who knows your mind.

[Giles Warwick]

Well, I didn't do this, so I'm not guilty on any of this stuff.

[Detective Todd Williams]

So how can you explain. How can you explain your DNA?

[Giles Warwick]

I have no idea.

[Paul Wagner]

The detectives keep probing more specifically about the murder of Christine.

[Detective Todd Williams]

Did you know Christine Mirjan? Do you know the name?

[Giles Warwick]

I have no idea who you're talking.

[Detective Todd Williams]

She was a woman. The woman that is the murder that I'm dealing with in dc. She was a woman that was walking home in Georgetown and she was abducted, not really abducted, but was taken off the sidewalk. She was sexually assaulted and she was killed during the sexual assault. And you know whose DNA came back on that? You. And so you don't know Christine, you didn't meet her at a party, you didn't have consensual sex with her?

[Giles Warwick]

I don't know Christine. I have no idea.

[Detective Todd Williams]

In 1998, 8-1-98, were you ever in Georgetown at a party or anywhere, and ran into Christine Mirjan and had had a sexual encounter with her, a consensual sexual encounter, and then went about your business?

[Giles Warwick]

I've never been to a party.

[Detective Todd Williams]

Did you ever run into a girl named Christine or did you ever run into a girl in August of 98 that you had a consensual sexual encounter with and then went about your business?

[Giles Warwick]

No, because in 1998, I was sleeping with one person and that was my kid's mother.

[Detective Todd Williams]

That was a leader.

[Giles Warwick]

Yeah.

[Paul Wagner]

Then this exchange, it comes more than an hour into the interview. Detective Williams starts talking about Giles Warwick's family again, the difficult position they're going to be in.

[Detective Todd Williams]

You honestly could change the course of this for everyone in your family. If you sat in here and took responsibility for the things you did, then we wouldn't have to go talk to any of them. You know what? Yeah, I did some fucked up things in my life and I regret it. And I'm a different man at 60 and now I Don't want my family to have to do this. They're going to suffer through this with me.

[Lauren Gillespie]

Me.

[Detective Todd Williams]

And that's like. Like, honestly, this happened now. Now you got to do something to be a bigger man than this for them. And I'm not. I'm not BSing about this, man.

[Giles Warwick]

I understand that, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you I did something. I didn't do it.

[Detective Todd Williams]

Well, explain your DNA on. On 10 cases, man.

[Giles Warwick]

I don't know, right?

[Detective Todd Williams]

How you can't explain it because your DNA is on 10 cases. And like I said, like, dude, there's a lot of people who do bad stuff in life. You did some bad stuff. There's no getting around it. You did some bad stuff. And maybe all. Maybe whatever happened in 98 with that woman in Georgetown was a. It was an anomaly, obviously, because she's dead and the rest of the women are alive. But. So what happened that night that. That caused you to do what you did? I don't know. I wasn't there. But it's.

[Giles Warwick]

Can I have an attorney with this? Because this is like you now. You're. I mean, I didn't do this.

[Detective Todd Williams]

So you. You. You're certainly entitled to an attorney. And if you decide you wanted to stop, we're gonna stop the interview at any point. Just think about what we're saying. Okay?

[Giles Warwick]

Okay.

[Detective Todd Williams]

You need some water or anything?

[Giles Warwick]

No, thank you.

[John Fitzgerald]

Okay,

[Paul Wagner]

the interview is over. Now, before I go any further in this story, I have to tell you that the jury will not be seeing that letter Warrick left for his fiance. Judge Lee threw it out the same day he ruled the DNA was lawfully obtained. Defense attorney Stephen Mercer had argued that the search warrant giving police the authority to search Warwick's home that morning was overly broad and anything taken from the house that day should be suppressed. Judge Milton Lee agreed, saying the detectives should have been more specific about what they were looking for. If they thought there might be evidence Warwick planned to hit the road and leave behind the life he had built with his fiance. And they should have said so. In addition, the judge said if they were looking for evidence tying Warwick to the Washington area, they should have included it in the warrant. Now, since there are other references to the letter, specifically in the interview with Warwick after his arrest, we will have to see if that makes it into evidence at trial. On September 9, 2021, nearly two years after he was arrested in South Carolina, Giles Warrick was indicted for first degree premeditated murder while armed. About two weeks later, he was arraigned in D.C. superior Court, where he pleaded not guilty. I watched the proceedings that day from my computer. COVID 19, was still wreaking havoc on the court system and the judge had limited the number of people who could attend. The camera never zoomed in on Warrick and I could not get a good look at him. By then he'd been in the D.C. jail for nearly two years. In the years since the indictment, there's been a flurry of court filings in anticipation of the trial. The date has been set for November 29th. If you're listening to this podcast the day it's been posted, that's exactly two weeks from today. The court filings provide clues about what evidence will come into play in the trial. I've already told you about the fight over the DNA swab. It's also expected that prosecutors in D.C. will bring in evidence from all of those rapes in Montgomery County, Maryland, even though Warwick has yet to go to trial on any of those charges. I'm also curious about how genetic genealogy will play out in the courtroom. It's been used in plenty of other trials across the country, but to my knowledge, this will be one of the first cases in D.C. that brings me back to Warwick's attorney, Stephen Mercer, who filed that motion seeking to have the DNA evidence against Warwick tossed out. Mercer is based out of Rockville, Maryland, and he specializes in DNA evidence. I've twice asked Mercer for an interview, but he's declined a biography on his law firm's website. Says From 2010 to 2017, Mercer was the chief attorney of the Forensics division of the Maryland Office of the Public Defender, nationally recognized as a model of excellence in forensic science litigation. The biography goes on to say, Steve is passionate about the particular issues related to DNA mixtures, touch DNA, the continued expansion of law enforcement DNA data banks, and emerging law enforcement techniques such as using the similarities of DNA between related persons to identify family members of individuals in a DNA data bank. The firm's website also contains clips from newspaper articles and TV shows where Mercer has given his opinion on DNA. One of the clips is from NBC News in a segment called Think, where Mercer looked into the camera and gave his opinion in a piece that lasted just over two minutes. During the trial, now scheduled for November of 2022, it is entirely possible the defense will bring up the issue of forensic genealogy. We don't yet know for certain, since Warwick's attorney has not tipped his hand on how he will mount a defense in court during the preliminary hearing in February of 2020. Detective Todd Williams testified the DNA that ultimately led investigators to Warwick came from a cousin who had entered it into an ancestry database. John Fitzgerald is a former commander with the Montgomery County Police. He retired after serving as the chief's chief of staff. He's now in charge of the tiny police force in the village of Chevy Chase, Maryland. I recently sat down with Chief Fitzgerald after learning he was an expert in the way forensic genealogy is being used in the state of Maryland, which is where Warwick will be tried for the rapes he's accused of committing. He told me he became a champion of the investigative technique after learning a state senator wanted to ban it. After months of negotiation and lobbying with proponents and opponents, he and others managed to convince lawmakers in Annapolis that forensic genealogy can be used responsibly and ethically by detectives hoping to find suspects in violent crimes. It's now law in Maryland. Detectives must first notify a judge before searching ancestry databases.

[John Fitzgerald]

A genealogy investigation. The word genealogy just means figuring out who's related to who. It's building a family tree. So a genealogy investigation or a genealogy hobby can involve finding out who your ancestors are and how far away they live and who you're related to and what their history is. So there's a lot of hobbyists that do this. It's not a new thing. Genealogy is using simply public records, like marriage records, birth records, death records, to sort through the history of a family and who's related to who. So who's the mother, who's the grandmother, who's the cousin, who's the child? Well, in a criminal investigation, sometimes we have DNA from crime scenes, from blood or other bodily fluids that have DNA. And sometimes that DNA tells us exactly who the bad guy is, because that guy's DNA is already in some database somewhere. Well, that doesn't always work out so neatly. So when we can't find the murderer who left his blood on the scene through a DNA check, what that sometimes requires that we do is taking that blood and seeing if we can find a relative of the murderer. Let's suppose it's a second cousin. And that second cousin from California has placed her own DNA voluntarily in a database to find her own relatives, and she has agreed to allow the police to take a look at it. So the police will take the bad guy's DNA, and we only ever have any control over DNA that came from a crime scene. We don't see anybody else's DNA. So that DNA is made into a file, so electronic file, so it can look at other similar electronic files. And if we find that the closest relative of this person who voluntarily allowed her DNA to be sort of matched, we say, we never get her DNA. What we get as a response is Sally McGillicuddy from Irvine, California. And my phone number is 1, you know, 5551212. That's what we get. We never get Sally's DNA. We never figure out if Sally is tall or short or has blonde hair or has a propensity for any disease. We never have any of that information, nor do we care. We just want to know who she is and how closely related she is to our suspect.

[Paul Wagner]

It's a lead.

[John Fitzgerald]

It's a lead. It's a lead. Exactly. And so from there, we just use public records to build a family tree, starting with Sally McGillicuddy, and we figure out who her ancestors are. And then skilled family tree builders, they call them genetic genealogists, but just they're family tree builders. They use their laptop computer and they sort through records that are publicly available, and then they find the common ancestor between Sally McGillicuddy, an innocent third cousin or whatever, and the perpetrator. They go, they build the family tree upwards and then back downwards until they can say, oh, look, here is our suspect, or suspects, maybe it's two brothers. And from there, the investigation is narrowed. And then police do normal police work to investigate the one or two suspects that this lead has given them. So for those who get anxious when somebody says, oh, your DNA was used, we have no access to and no interest in anything that any information DNA may hold outside of identifying the bad person who did a bad thing.

[Paul Wagner]

In the summer of 2021, I went down to the criminal clerk's office at D.C. superior Court and downloaded the case file. It didn't take too long. There wasn't much there at the time. The most intriguing, intriguing documents are what's called discovery letters filed by the Prosecutors in the U.S. attorney's office. Discovery is a legal term used in court and covers everything the government is expected to turn over to the defense. The letters give reporters like me just a little bit of insight into what's going on with the case as it heads toward trial. For example, in one letter, there's a line that says utility systems, subpoena response. Utility systems is where Warwick worked beginning in 1997 or 98. Another line says grand jury transcripts from VD. VD are the initials investigators have used to identify the woman raped on MacArthur Boulevard in the District. The letter also says it was turning over to the defense grand jury Transcripts from witnesses 1 through 40. On June 18, 2021, prosecutors filed another discovery letter. This one is 10 pages long and lists what appears to be everything that was done to solve the murder of Christine and the rape of vd. For example, the letter says it was turning over to the defense a Georgetown university memo dated 62 1998, regarding harassing calls made to the library. Another line lists quote, broadcast from Alexandria Re possible rape bag recovered on 8 14, 1998, about two weeks after Christine was killed. On page 9, there are a few other intriguing entries. One says 3231991 Report of Burglary for Kettler Brothers Incorporated. The suspect is Warwick. And then the letter lists a text conversation with Witness 11. Witness 11 appears to be a woman who knows Warwick very well. The document says on November 18, 2019, six days after the arrest, Witness 11 corresponded with Detective Williams. During the text conversation, Witness 11 said, you have me worried. I don't know anything and I don't believe he did these things. You got it wrong. I already see big problems with your case and I am an amateur. The Washington Post contacted me. I'm confused and scared and don't know who I can trust. You guys already told the media before he has been charged. Someone is manipulating this case, but you don't want to tell me who told the media. When witness 11 was told that the detective was not going to discuss the details, Witness 11 stated, then I will probably talk to the media. Two days later, the document says Witness 11 texted the detective again asking, can you run some records for me? I am trying to get some dates verified. Can I ask that of you? The detective asked what witness 11 was trying to verify and witness 11 responded, he was in jail several times around my pregnancies, so I am trying to trace things in my head. I called one detention center and records are too old. The detective we're talking about is Todd Williams, who then told Witness 11 it would be discussed when she came in for the interview, to which she replied, but if you don't have them already, you aren't going to help me. I'm going through all the stages of grief as the only way to explain it. In a text message exchange with me, Aleda, the mother of three of Giles Warwick's children, confirmed she is witness 11. She did not go to the media as she claimed. She's never spoken publicly about the case and would not give me an interview. In the same document, Warwick's fiance, the woman he was living with in South Carolina, told police that after the arrest, two relatives of Warwick's pointed a finger at a cousin and said the man resembled the composite sketch of the Potomac River Rapist. Police looked into the claim and ruled the man out. Police also asked her if any relative had offered up an alibi for any of the crimes Warwick is accused of. And she replied, I mean, just the fact that children were being born, but no, I mean, nobody's saying, you know, he was here at a birthday party for my 12 year old son. There's nothing definitive like that. She was then asked about that letter found inside her home the day Warwick was arrested. The letter the judge in the case called a consciousness of guilt. She told police she believed Warwick had an upcoming workman's compensation appointment in Maryland, but did not believe he was heading there the morning of his arrest. The discovery letters are full of tantalizing bits of information like that. As the case got closer to trial, the prosecutors were releasing more and more evidence about the case. Most of it you now know. As I wrote this episode, I remembered a moment in my interview with David that I wanted to share with you. It came right at the end of the second time we talked. I was thanking him for the time and he was telling me about his thriving career as a scientist and life on the West Coast. His wife Lauren was standing in the background. She's a bit off mic and so some of what she says is hard to understand. What's crystal clear, though, is the emotion in her voice. You got a busy life. I really appreciate it very much. Thank you very much for talking. David,

[Lauren Gillespie]

question or request? Actually, yeah, I just wanted to say, you know, I appreciate it too. That's really hard to talk about, that there's justice for her. And we talked about going to Washington, D.C. to stand for her because

[Paul Wagner]

her

[Lauren Gillespie]

family's from Vancouver and someone needs to be there for her.

[Paul Wagner]

That's true.

[Lauren Gillespie]

I listened to the whole thing and then as soon as I asked you a question, I was like, oh, no, I'm crying. Because I know there are things all around our house that are from Christine. The plates we eat dinner on every night and this or that or a piece of furniture or whatever, and photo albums at their wedding. And it's something I think about a lot, that we've talked about a lot. We talked about a lot when we first met.

[Paul Wagner]

Yeah.

[Lauren Gillespie]

Fragility of life and not taking anything for granted. But it was a pretty emotional time. It was almost eight years, like 11 months ago.

[David Gillespie]

Right.

[Lauren Gillespie]

We found out in the middle of November and they called my cell phone too And I knew right away some, some movement on the case. DC phone number came in. I was like, oh, they called him next. And you know, they were on a schedule to talk to him before the new day.

[Paul Wagner]

We're gonna break the news.

[David Gillespie]

Right?

[Lauren Gillespie]

But I, I feel strongly that she needs her day in court.

[Giles Warwick]

Yep.

[Paul Wagner]

Yeah.

[Lauren Gillespie]

And we can do that on her behalf.

[Paul Wagner]

I hadn't thought about it until Lauren mentioned it, that maybe there wouldn't be anyone in the courtroom to represent Christine. She was only in D.C. for that one summer 1998, and her family doesn't have any ties in the area and now they live in Canada. David and Lauren want to make sure there's someone who remembers Christine in the courtroom in D.C. when her accused killer goes on trial. This is a case that's been in my head now for 24 years and almost daily for the last two years as I conducted interviews and wrote this podcast. The trial is now set for the end of November in D.C. superior Court. A case like this will likely go on for weeks with testimony from the medical examiner, detectives and DNA experts. Christine was a scientist, and it's not lost on me that major advances in science, notably DNA technology, eventually led to an arrest in the case. At the end of the day, the case was solved in a lab, a place Christine spent a great deal of her academic career. The National Academy's fellowship program Christine never got a chance to finish is now named in her honor. It's considered one of the most prestigious fellowships for recent science graduates. Each year, the Christine Merzaion Science and Technology Fellowship brings young scientists to Washington D.C. for a 12 week hands on program to learn about science and technology policy and the role that scientists and engineers play in advising the nation. It's the kind of thing Christine was passionate about, something she may have made her life's work if she hadn't been murdered in August of 1998. In my interview with David, he reflected on the life of a woman he loved and admired. She was, he says something else.

[David Gillespie]

She was a really unusual, interesting person in terms of her personality, she was very passionate. She lived life with the highest level of passion. And she, she kind of had this attitude like, you have to live life to its fullest every day. And she believed in this philosopher, Albert Camus, a French famous French philosopher who had a philosophy that, you know, life is meaningless and you might as well just kill yourself because life is meaningless, but the only reason to live is because you have a passion for life. You know, that life itself is meaningless, but it's still Amazing, right? Something in me kind of like that type of. And she really lived by that, that kind of philosophy. She was very. She was very outgoing, I would say very smart, very brilliant. No doubt about it. She was filled with life. I mean, amazingly filled with life compared to the average person, I would say. And one of the things I talked about at her eulogy was that she was also part of her passion was to sometimes do things that were kind of dangerous. Like, I remember. I remember the story where we went on. She had a friend who was also kind of shared her personality in the Bay Area, Mario. And we all went on this rafting trip once and they just basically. Mario just basically bought a raft, you know, a blow up raft at some. At Target or something like that. And then we went to this river and I was like, are we sure this is safe? You know, we put the raft in and we just started going down the river. And I was like, really nervous. But, you know, Christine was kind of like, you wimp. You know, we have to live life to its fullest. We're living life to its fullest right now. And then we like passed some people that were like on the side of the river and they said, oh, by the way, there's a. Watch out for the waterfall.

[Detective Todd Williams]

Oh, boy.

[David Gillespie]

So I was like, oh, that doesn't sound good. But yes, she had that personality. She definitely lived life to its fullest. So it was really, really just so sad that her life ended the way it did in this kind of meaningless way.

[Paul Wagner]

Now, keep in mind, the trial starts at the end of November and we will be covering it. So future episodes will be coming in early December as we follow this incredible story to the end. Season three of WTOP's American Nightmare series has been written by me, Paul Wagner, with editorial assistance from Jack Moore, Julia Ziegler and Craig Schwab. This series would not have been possible without the help of Dean Combie, Joe Madonna Kelly, David Hakos, Brad Garrett, Gary Gill, d' Arcy Spencer, John Fitzgerald, David Gillespie, Jeff Stouffer and Steve Smugarevsky reporting. And production of this podcast was supported by a grant from Spotlight DC Capital City Fund for Investigative Journalism. For grants, Please apply to spotlightdc.org Our show relies on people like you leaving ratings and reviews on Apple to help us climb the podcast charts and attract new listeners. We hope if you like what you hear, you will take a minute to do so. If you have questions or comments about the show, send us an email through through our website, American Nightmare podcast.com we are also on Twitter and Facebook at AM Nightmare Pod. The music in the show is Ethereal Thoughts by Olive Music and steadfast by moments. And as always, thanks for listening. Sa.