S5 E6 - Tell Me Everything

Summary

Podcast Summary: American Nightmares – Gardens of Evil: Inside the Zion Society Cult

Season 5, Episode 6: "Tell Me Everything"

Date: March 10, 2026
Host: Aaron Mason, Gamut Podcast Network

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Episode Overview

In "Tell Me Everything," Aaron Mason explores the fraught aftermath of the 1991 law enforcement raid on the Zion Society—a secretive, abusive cult hidden in a quiet Utah suburb. The episode focuses on the immediate efforts of police to protect and interview the rescued children, the psychological and emotional barriers those children faced, the strategy behind apprehending cult leader Arvin Shreve, and the extraordinarily brave survivors whose stories began to reshape the pursuit of justice. The episode’s narrative is interwoven with firsthand accounts, ethical dilemmas, and police interrogation tactics, culminating in Shreve’s tense confession.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The 1991 Raid and Its Immediate Aftermath

[01:05 – 03:51]

• Police raid multiple Zion Society homes, removing children and seeking evidence of abuse, specifically a videotape used as a tool for indoctrination.
• Cult leader Arvin Shreve is missing during the raid; only one arrest warrant had been issued initially, highlighting law enforcement's caution and complex prosecutorial strategy.

2. The Community and Cult Dynamics

[04:41 – 08:08]

• Reporter and cult expert Mike Watkis describes the striking contrast between the outward perfection of the neighborhood and the dark reality within.

  “You realized, I’m in the Emerald City. I mean, it really was like from a black and white movie to full technicolor.” — Mike Watkis [05:07]

• Watkis equates Shreve with typical cult leaders, analyzing manipulative tactics and warning against sensationalizing cult crimes at the expense of survivor stories.

  “The real heroes ... have always been the brave women who get the hell out and then say hell no. And they've changed history.” — Mike Watkis [07:10]

3. Survivor Accounts and the Challenge of Disclosure

Anessa’s Story
[12:10 – 15:55]

• Anessa, who was 11 during the raid, recounts the confusion and loyalty-driven silence instilled by the cult.

  “I didn’t say anything because I was supposed to protect people.” — Anessa [13:15]

• Only after realizing others had spoken out did Anessa feel compelled to share some of what had happened to her, though she still protected her primary abusers.

The Children's Justice Center Approach
[15:55 – 19:21]

• New methods—CJC interviews in child-friendly settings—offered hope of reducing trauma, though the scale of brainwashing and coaching limited immediate breakthroughs.

Carrie’s Story
[19:21 – 25:54]

• Carrie, deeply attached to her mother, demonstrates the emotional manipulation and forced separation tactics used to indoctrinate children.

  “I had to be with her every second. … I was so afraid that I wasn’t gonna see her again. … It was like this super bad anxiety every time I wasn’t with her.” — Carrie [23:42]

• Carrie ultimately commits, years later, to breaking the silence and reclaiming her power:

  “I think that when something is hidden, it gives it power. … It took away the power that it had over me by talking about it.” — Carrie [21:02]

Patterns in Testimony
[25:54 – 26:30]

• Detectives recognize that many disclosures (and denials) from children were nearly identical, revealing the depth of group coaching and manipulation.

4. Finding Arvin and the Lead-Up to His Arrest

[29:13 – 33:53]

• For decades, the details of Arvin’s escape were unknown—until Carrie reveals she was with Arvin, her mother, and others, in hiding in Mount Pleasant because of a tip-off.

  “Yeah, I was with him.” — Carrie [30:05]

• The cult’s paranoia was stoked by seeing an undercover PI on TV, triggering frantic document destruction and dispersal of members.

5. The Interrogation and Confession of Arvin Shreve

The Trip to Cedar City
[34:01 – 37:58]

• Detectives Mike King and Dave Lucas drive 290 miles in haste to collect Shreve after he turns himself in, strategizing to use the car ride for rapport-building.

Interrogation Tactics
[38:11 – 50:53]

• Lucas takes a “honey over vinegar” approach with Shreve, who at first invokes his right to an attorney, but later waives it and agrees to talk.
• The detectives carefully craft the conversation, eventually getting Shreve to agree to a taped confession.

Shreve’s Rationalizations
[53:00 – 56:08]

• Shreve shifts the blame onto children, claiming his acts were about “bonding” in a “family unit.”

  “May I emphasize ... there was never any element of force, coercion, or persuasion. All contact was initiated by the children in a very natural and casual manner.” — Arvin Shreve (as reported by Mike King) [53:00+]

• When confronted with evidence, Shreve confesses to 30 felony sex abuse charges, though he accepts no moral responsibility.

A Chilling Final Admission
[57:58 – End]

• Detective King asks how often the abuse occurred:

  “It was a daily thing,” [Arvin Shreve said flatly]. “If I asked you what you had for breakfast last Thursday, you wouldn’t know. You would know you had breakfast, just not what or where.” — [58:36]

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Mike Watkis:
  “You realized, I’m in the Emerald City. I mean, it really was like from a black and white movie to full technicolor.” [05:07]
  “The real heroes ... have always been the brave women who get the hell out and then say hell no. And they've changed history.” [07:10]

• Anessa (Survivor):
  “I didn’t say anything because I was supposed to protect people.” [13:15]
  “I totally wish that I would have said something at the time. That is the only thing that kind of eats at me because I don’t know where they went. I don’t know if they hurt anyone else.” [15:45]

• Carrie (Survivor):
  “I think that when something is hidden, it gives it power. … It took away the power that it had over me by talking about it.” [21:02]
  “Looking strong made me feel safe in the world. … I take back my power … I still have nightmares, but I’ve had them my whole life, you know. But in my later, you know, in life, like recently, I’m taking the power back.” [21:44]

• Detective Mike King:
  “He built this entire religion to satisfy his pedophilia and then convinced others of it to fuel his fantasies and his desires. … the spots on this leopard are not changing.” [56:08]

• Arvin Shreve (as paraphrased by detectives):
  “May I emphasize ... there was never any element of force, coercion, or persuasion. All contact was initiated by the children in a very natural and casual manner. The purpose of such contact was not lust or sexual gratification, but bonding in the building of a closeness within what was perceived as an eternal family unit.” [53:00+]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:05] – The Raid Begins: Raiding homes, searching for evidence, and rescuing children.
• [04:41] – Journalists Arrive: Mike Watkis’s first impressions and cult expert commentary.
• [12:10, 19:21] – Survivor Testimonies: Firsthand accounts from Anessa, Carrie, and others on CJC interviews and family dynamics.
• [30:05] – Arvin’s Whereabouts Revealed: Carrie recounts hiding with Arvin before the raid.
• [33:47] – Shreve Turns Himself In: Police scramble to fetch Arvin and prepare for an interrogation.
• [38:11 – 54:55] – The Confession: The car ride, tactics, and Shreve’s justifications on tape.
• [56:08] – Chilling Admission: “It was a daily thing.”
• [End] – Preview and Reflection: The impact of survivor testimony and what’s next in the story.

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Memorable Moments

• The role of brave women: Multiple survivors and supportive relatives—Erin Anderson, Aunt Judy, Cheryl Naugle—are spotlighted as essential to breaking the cult’s hold and bringing truth to light.
• Interrogation as performance and manipulation: The detectives’ nuanced strategies contrast with Arvin’s chilling, blame-shifting rationalizations.
• Coping with trauma: Carrie’s powerful description of using strength and honesty to reclaim her life stands out as a beacon for other survivors.
• Shreve’s final confession: His cold, detached description of daily abuse exemplifies the depth of his moral bankruptcy and the persistent challenge of prosecuting such cases.

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Episode Tone & Language

The episode is sober, introspective, and direct, balancing methodical investigative detail with respectful, unflinching survivor testimony. Language is empathetic when discussing survivors, grave when exposing Arvin’s justifications, and professional throughout the detectives’ tactical discussions.

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For further resources on sexual violence, listeners are directed to RAINN.org or the National Sexual Assault Hotline (800-656-HOPE).

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Next Episode Preview:
The focus shifts to another pivotal survivor whose courtroom testimony became the "heart of the entire case" against Arvin Shreve and the Zion Society.

Transcript

[Aaron Mason]

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[Narrator / Host]

some of the subject matter in this podcast is difficult, including sexual abuse of adults and children. While the more graphic details will be left out, the specifics can be triggering. Please take care when listening

[Aaron Mason]

Ogden police raided five homes and took nine children

[Detective Mike King]

into protective custody today after allegations surfaced

[Aaron Mason]

that children were being abused.

[Narrator / Host]

Minutes after law enforcement raided a number of Zion Society homes on the morning of August 2, 1991, the media descended on the Northwoods subdivision, among them KSL News reporter Larry Lewis.

[Detective Mike King]

Neighbors describe the people on this street as a tight knit group. Some call them polygamists, an accusation they deny. We don't consider ourselves a cult, a

[Detective Dave Lucas]

church of any kind.

[Aaron Mason]

According to court records, someone within that

[Detective Mike King]

very group came forward complaining that the

[Aaron Mason]

adults were showing children a pornographic videotape.

[Detective Mike King]

The tape was described as sexually explicit and and used as an instructional tool for the children. This morning's search focused on finding that

[Aaron Mason]

tape and other evidence of child abuse.

[Detective Mike King]

Police won't say much about the case and won't confirm if they found the alleged tape investigation still ongoing and it

[Narrator / Host]

substantiates the allegations that were made. The cops were tight lipped. They were still in the process of gathering evidence from inside the homes. And with the case being so far cloaked in secrecy, law enforcement had to be extremely careful about keeping information from getting out that might tip their hand. After all, the man they went in to apprehend the group's leader, Arvin Shreve, was nowhere to be found.

[Detective Mike King]

Police have made no arrests.

[Narrator / Host]

On the day of the raid, Detective Mike King had an arrest warrant for just one person, Arvin we wanted to

[Detective Mike King]

focus on the head of the snake first and foremost, but we already had been building cases against other members of the group.

[Narrator / Host]

So far there was evidence to support arresting several of the adults in the Zion Society. But in a sensitive case like this with so many layers and moving pieces and so much at stake, the ramifications of every decision had to be considered.

[Detective Mike King]

You look at a patrol officer who sees a guy inside of a business burglarizing it at 3 o' clock in the morning, it's pretty easy to put the handcuffs on him, take him to jail and charge him with burglary.

[Narrator / Host]

But this case was not so cut and dry.

[Detective Mike King]

For instance, we still questioned how much coercion was occurring in the adult women, even though they were involved in predatory behavior, how much of that was coercive and placed on them because of Arvin.

[Narrator / Host]

There were also prosecutorial strategies to think about.

[Detective Mike King]

If they could take a negotiated plea and offer testimony against Arvin. It proved much more valuable than immediately going in and putting them in the adversarial role of being a defendant right from the start.

[Narrator / Host]

So the pursuit of the other adults would remain on the to do list. Now, in the immediate aftermath of the raid, Mike had two urgent tasks. One was unexpected. He had to find and apprehend the now vanished cult leader. The other was to talk with the children who had been removed that morning from their abusive environments and and placed into protective custody. As Mike headed off to where the children were being interviewed, the news media continued to arrive at the once quiet neighborhood of Northwood. One such reporter was Mike Watkis, a broadcast journalist and cult expert who grew up in northern Utah. He worked in local news early in his career and in 1991 was living in New York City producing stories for the popular syndicated show A Current Affair.

[Mike Watkis (Reporter / Cult Expert)]

Because of my link to Utah, whenever one of these kind of stories would come up, that was my beat. I got on a plane and, you know, got back to Salt Lake and hooked up with a crew that I knew, and we went up to that neighborhood.

[Narrator / Host]

As he entered the Northwood subdivision, even knowing about some of the rotten things that happened inside of the cult's homes, Watkus said their outsides, those gardens, were breathtaking.

[Mike Watkis (Reporter / Cult Expert)]

It really was mind blowing. You know, it was like the wizard of Oz. You were in Kansas at one moment and you turned around a corner and suddenly you're in this. In this cul de sac. And you realized, I'm in the Emerald City. I mean, it really was like from a black and white movie to, you know, full technicolor.

[Narrator / Host]

But unlike Dorothy and her companions, Watkus and his crew weren't exactly welcomed in.

[Mike Watkis (Reporter / Cult Expert)]

As soon as we get there, we're confronted by some, a male follower, I think it may have been Arvin's son.

[Detective Mike King]

You Want me to destroy that camera for you?

[Mike Watkis (Reporter / Cult Expert)]

Not very much.

[Detective Mike King]

Then get it out of here.

[Mike Watkis (Reporter / Cult Expert)]

So yeah, that was our greeting.

[Narrator / Host]

Watkus was not intimidated. This wasn't the first abusive cult he'd set his sights on, and it most certainly wouldn't be his last.

[Mike Watkis (Reporter / Cult Expert)]

I've been chasing, covering, tracking down, trying to find guys like Arvin Shreve for better part of 45, nearly 50 years.

[Narrator / Host]

When I sat down to interview him, Watkis very quickly mentioned something I think is an important takeaway from this whole story. Abusers, whether they're cult leaders or bad bosses or abusive boyfriends, they all use the same playbook. Arvin, he told me, was nothing special.

[Mike Watkis (Reporter / Cult Expert)]

I mean, you strip it away, it's Koresh, it's Jim Jones, it's separating people from families. It's telling them, I am your only way. Anybody else is wrong and evil. You know, all of this is cult

[Narrator / Host]

101, he said the embellishments will differ. From cult leader to cult leader, Arvin had his sweet old man facade and carried out his perversions right under his suburban neighbors noses. Others buy Bentleys or orchestrate drug fueled orgies, or convince their followers to drink cyanide laced flavor aid. But those provocative details, the ones that often grab our attention, are really just empty calories.

[Mike Watkis (Reporter / Cult Expert)]

It's the interesting part, but it does such a great disservice. We tell the stories and I've done this. We tell the stories of Arvind Shreve and Warren. Jim, these Lauses are just nickel and dime con men. They just all got a shtick going. The stories that are to be told are the always women who get out and start raising hell. A few reporters have told their stories, a few cops have taken their stories seriously. But over the course of time, not nearly enough has been done. But the real heroes in this, it ain't John Wayne riding in and saving the day. That is a false misogynistic narrative of this story. Imposing some, you know, great male figure saving it. You know, there have been a few men who have stepped up. Mike King took it seriously, made a difference. The heroes have always been the brave women who get the hell out and then say hell no. And they've changed history.

[Narrator / Host]

Women like Erin Anderson, who first brought this case to light by walking into a police station and at great risk to herself, exposed the horrors occurring inside the Zion society. Erin's aunt Judy, who was relentless in supporting her niece and encouraged her to tell her story. Cheryl Naugle, the private investigator's wife who went undercover into the belly of the beast to gather evidence that not only got Jeff Peterson's kids out of the cult, but helped open the door for all the other children to be saved from their abusers. And there are more, many you haven't been introduced to yet because so far they've been locked away inside the cult's homes. But now they've been rescued from their captors and can speak to those of us in the outside world. So as we move forward, you'll hear from more of the survivors of the Zion Society, their stories in their words, as the quest for justice and the absent Arvin Shreve continues. I'm Aaron Mason and this is Gardens of Evil Inside the Zion Society Cult Episode 6 Tell Me Everything.

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[Aaron Mason]

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[Narrator / Host]

The children were in protective custody. For now, law enforcement only had a short amount of time to gather as much information as they could about each child's experience in order to use that evidence to charge and arrest their abusers and to keep the kids from going back to them. Remember, in nearly all of these cases, it was their own parents who either committed or facilitated the sexual abuse. But if the kids wouldn't talk, their abusers might escape retribution, perhaps entirely. Meet Anessa, one of the Zion Society children.

[Anessa (Zion Society Survivor)]

I haven't said anything. I'm not saying anything. And things are a lot worse than anybody knows.

[Narrator / Host]

We spoke in May of 2025. Me in my office in Seattle and Anessa in her home that she shares with her family and a couple of Great Danes. On the morning of the raid, Anessa was 11 years old. One moment she was asleep in her bed and then in a flash she was shepherded into her living room, then a Child Protective Services van, then driven away to where she and the rest of the children there that morning were to be interviewed.

[Anessa (Zion Society Survivor)]

And I remember just saying, where are my sisters? Where are my sisters? You know, what are you doing with them? Where are they? I need to know they're safe. I need to know that everybody's okay.

[Narrator / Host]

Anessa was confused and disoriented. As a child of the Zion Society cult, she had been warned something like this might happen. Babylon, the outside world might try to interfere with their way of life. But in the moment, all she felt was her duty.

[Anessa (Zion Society Survivor)]

I didn't say anything because I was supposed to protect people.

[Narrator / Host]

Anessa's mother and father joined the Zion Society when she was around five years old. She was quickly introduced to Arvin.

[Anessa (Zion Society Survivor)]

He still tried to do a few things to me, but I was too small at the time. I actually almost cried when it didn't work for me.

[Narrator / Host]

Separated from her parents and apparently of no use to Arvin, Anessa was relocated.

[Anessa (Zion Society Survivor)]

I was separated into a household that was outside of Arvin's.

[Narrator / Host]

She became one of the spiritual wives in the sister council of another family who lived across the street Caddy Corner from her own parents and younger sisters.

[Anessa (Zion Society Survivor)]

So I lived with them and the sexual and other abuse. Most of what happened to me was from that family versus from Arvin.

[Narrator / Host]

As 11 year old Anessa sat for questioning. She didn't offer up much information. She did as she had been taught.

[Anessa (Zion Society Survivor)]

We were told that the outside world would never understand us and that we had to keep that, all that stuff private and we had to protect our leaders because, again, we were being persecuted. It wasn't that anything wrong was going on. They were being persecuted and that we would wind up being saved in the end for being strong.

[Narrator / Host]

Anessa and the other children were scared. They assumed, correctly, that they wouldn't be in protective custody forever. As child and family service workers were figuring out how to get them settled into foster care, their parents were actively trying to get them out. So if you're a kid being questioned, maybe you're thinking, what if I go back home in a day or two and didn't perform like I was told to? That might mean some serious trouble.

[Anessa (Zion Society Survivor)]

You just have to keep your mouth shut, don't say anything.

[Narrator / Host]

It wasn't until a couple weeks later, after subsequent interviews, that Anessa finally discussed some of the abuse she had experienced. But specifically only the acts committed by Arvin Shreve, which had begun to happen with more regularity as she aged into double digits.

[Anessa (Zion Society Survivor)]

And the only reason I did that was because they had already told me that other people had already said stuff and, oh, okay, then I might as well tell you what happened.

[Narrator / Host]

When it came to the family that she lived with, the ones responsible for the majority of abuses committed against her, Anessa insisted on protecting them.

[Anessa (Zion Society Survivor)]

I totally wish that I would have said something at the time. That is the only thing that kind of eats at me because I don't know where they went. I don't know if they hurt anyone else.

[Narrator / Host]

Anessa and the other children were taken to a child advocacy center, or as it's called in Utah, a Children's Justice Center. A CJC is a building set aside for doing interviews with kids who are victims of or witnesses to crimes. And it was a brand new concept back in 1991. Here's County Attorney at the time, Reed Richards. That was maybe one of the first cases we had in a children's justice center in Utah. And it was set up to be able to allow us to interview the

[Detective Dave Lucas]

kids in a place that they'd be comfortable somewhat.

[Narrator / Host]

Up until that point, the legal system was anything but child friendly. In order to see their abusers pay for what they'd done, children were put through a process that more often than not, actually added to the trauma they were already experiencing. These children were having multiple interviews over and over. In different locations. The prosecutor's office, the doctor's office. That is the voice of Joan Hellstrom. They sometimes had to go to very scary environments.

[Sponsor / Advertiser Voices]

The police station, people were coming in, being arrested.

[Narrator / Host]

Joan Hellstrom was our main advocate for

[Detective Dave Lucas]

children at that time, and she took

[Narrator / Host]

charge of making sure that the kids felt comfortable and taking care of any. I think she even made cookies for them. It was kind of supposed to be like a grandma's house originally. Find an old home or something that could be remodeled. So we moved forward, got it decorated.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

Great.

[Narrator / Host]

The interview rooms were age appropriate for the children. I mean, it was just a safe, private, wonderful place. And in 1991, it was the grand opening. The children's justice center was still in its nascent days, and the Zion society kids were, for lack of a better term, the guinea pigs. Joan and her team would sit with the children and try to be a comfort to them while all of the necessary legal wheels turned. Interviewers, medical examiners, attorneys, and legal advisors could all come to them. It was just incredible how we could take some of these. I don't want to call them victims, but these children and have them tell their stories. And the one thing they'd always say was they could come in to this children's justice center, be interviewed and be believed. But it was an intense and often difficult opening run with the Zion society children. You might expect them to be relieved and grateful to be saved from such unconscionable and unrelenting abuse, but they weren't. Like Andrea said in the last episode, it didn't feel like a rescue. It felt like the bad guys had gotten us, had found us out. Many of the children, especially the teenagers, outright refused to cooperate. Not only had they been brainwashed into believing that anyone outside of their group was evil, but they had actually been coached on what to say if ever questioned by law enforcement. This is carrie. She was 15 on the day of the raid.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

We had these interrogation sessions where they would pretend like they were in the interrogator, and they'd be like, well, has anybody ever touched you? And I'd be like, what do you mean? I get hugs all the time. Of course people touch me. You would act like you didn't know what they were talking about when they were asking the question. Right. And we were also told the tactics that they would use and the questions that they would ask, and they were right on, like they knew. And when Mike shows up, in my mind, he was. He was bad, and he wanted to hurt us.

[Narrator / Host]

Mike's strategy was to Be invisible. He'd stay back and let the caseworkers create the emotional attachments with the children and start to build trust with them,

[Detective Mike King]

rather than trying to get a child to trust the police officer in uniform that just ripped them from the arms of their parents.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

I was a very stubborn child.

[Narrator / Host]

Carrie is today, as she was then, very intelligent and fiercely determined.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

I think they could have kept me in that center for days without food and without sleep, and I wouldn't have broke.

[Narrator / Host]

That strength of will has served Carrie well in her time since the Zion Society. She decided at 17 that she was tired of making up stories about her past whenever people at school wanted to know where the new girl was from. So from that point on, if anyone asked her any question, no matter what it was, she would tell them the truth.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

And if people asked, it made them uncomfortable. That's on them, she said.

[Narrator / Host]

It was hard at first, but it was important to Carrie that she didn't keep her trauma in the dark.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

I think that when something is hidden, it gives it power. And I think that what happened is it took away the power that it had over me by talking about it.

[Narrator / Host]

But child abuse always leaves scars.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

I have had nightmares ever since I left there. I still have them. They're usually involving Arvin. Sometimes he's chasing me. And I've developed this, like, need to feel and look powerful.

[Narrator / Host]

We'll learn later what life has been like over the last 35 years for many of the Zion Society's survivors. But I want you to hear Kerry's response to her trauma now, because it's visible the moment you meet her.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

Looking strong made me feel safe in the world. And looking intimidating, especially to mention made me feel safe in the world in a way that I never had. And I'm tall as well, so having muscles, having tattoos. And so in my dreams, sometimes Arvind is trying to do something to me that I don't want him to. And I'm afraid. And I stand up to him and I have a jacket on. I take. And this sounds so ridiculous, but I take my jacket off so he could see my tattoos. Like, he could see that I. I take back my power. I have power, and I have my own strength. And I'm not gonna take it. I'm not gonna let him abuse me. And, yeah, I still. I still have nightmares, but I've had them my whole life, you know. But in my later, you know, in life, like recently, I'm taking the power back.

[Narrator / Host]

Back at the Children's justice center, everything they asked Carrie about, she Denied sexual abuse, sexual activity of any kind, the sister councils. She even disavowed the existence of the group itself. According to interview reports, Carrie's sister said Carrie often got phone calls from their mother during this time reminding her not to talk about the things she did. And those calls concluded with a promise to her daughter that, quote, we will be together soon. It was a promise that meant a lot to Carrie. Her mother took her and two of her siblings to live in the cult when she was 7. She had, to use her words, a severe over attachment to her mom that began when they moved to Northwood and her entire family was taken away from her overnight. That meant her father and three siblings who refused to join the cult and her two brothers who came along, but she hardly ever saw because they lived in different houses. Everyone had disappeared. Everyone except her mother.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

And I got super attached to her to the point where I would freak out whenever I couldn't be with her. I had to be with her every second. And I would call her mommy. And so I would be like, mommy. If I was gonna leave her presence, I'd be like, mommy, I love you. I love you, Mommy. I love you, Mommy. I love you, Mommy. I love you, Mommy.

[Sponsor / Advertiser Voices]

I love you, Mommy.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

Like, I was so afraid that I wasn't gonna see her again. And so it was like this super bad anxiety every time I wasn't with her.

[Narrator / Host]

One day, after about three years in the group, when Carrie was 10, her mom took her to the house across the street from Arvin's, where a bunch of his wives lived.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

My mom took me there and dropped me off, and she's like, you're gonna live here now? And they had to physically restrain me.

[Narrator / Host]

She knew what this meant. Carrie began screaming and kicking, lashing out any way her little body could to try and stop the one thing she feared more than any other from coming to pass.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

And then I never lived with her again while I was there. And they wouldn't let me see her again until I could show no emotion. And I couldn't call her mommy anymore. I had to call her Laura. And I couldn't. Couldn't cry. So I don't know how long it was. I think it was months before I could even see her. We were always occupying her time, sewing, cooking, cleaning, gardening. And so if I passed her on the street, she would just nod and smile and say hi to me like I was an acquaintance.

[Narrator / Host]

Carrie remembers exactly how she felt during that time.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

Panic, Sheer panic. I was destroyed emotionally. Like, I was completely abandoned. I had nobody and the way that they treated me was super emotionally abusive. And you had. If you didn't do what they wanted, you basically got ignored and not paid attention to. And so it was just a lot of not having people who really seemed like they liked me.

[Narrator / Host]

Carrie didn't say any of that to the people asking questions at the cjc. She dug her heels in, and there her heels were going to stay. But not everyone was defensive or combative. And Mike and his partner, Dave Lucas, began to see a pattern among some who did talk. Here's Detective Lucas.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

A lot of them would tell us things, and the way they said it did make it sound like, oh, these kids have been coached on what to tell us because they were all saying basically the same thing.

[Narrator / Host]

Not just similar answers, but in some cases, exactly the same wording. But there were literally thousands of instances of child sexual abuse believed to have taken place in the cult. And with so many occurrences, it's reasonable to think the children could have many similar experiences. So how could you tell the difference between saying the same thing and experiencing the same thing? Things were getting intense and emotions were running high. And the one man Mike King, had the legal authority to apprehend, had vanished. Mike thought if he could just find Arvin, then maybe the Zion Society, as cults like it often do, would crumble without their profit. Perhaps with Arvin locked away, his consequences would no longer be a threat, and members and ex members would begin to open up about what went on under his leadership without fear of retribution. But the man could be anywhere. And then, three days after the raid, while Mike was watching an interview from a secret room behind a one way mirror, he got an emergency alert on his pager saying to call the county attorney's office. He did, and you're not going to believe what they told him.

[Aaron Mason]

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safe, and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. For nearly 35 years, Arvin's whereabouts on the day of the raid have been unknown. There were theories. Maybe he was hiding in one of the homes that didn't have a search warrant. Maybe he was holed up in this huge reinforced bunker they had in one of the backyards. But no one knew for sure. Not Mike King, not Reed Richards, not any former cop or cult member. No one. So imagine my surprise when, during my interview with Carrie, she told me this.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

Yeah, I was with him.

[Sponsor / Advertiser Voices]

What?

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

I was with him, basically. I don't know who did it, but someone had leaked to Carla that there was gonna be a raid.

[Narrator / Host]

It could have been days, it could have been weeks. She can't recall. But at some point before the raid, a teenage Carrie got into a car with her mom, Arvin, Arvin's lieutenant, Carla, and a woman we'll just call Jane. And the four of them drove two hours south to Mount Pleasant, Utah, to a mobile home owned by Jane's parents.

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

And we stayed in that mobile home. That's where we were living. I had a cat. Duchess is her name. White cat. We had to put this cat in the car on his drive down. And we stayed there until the raid happened. But we were told about it. We saw it on the news. We were also, I think people in the group had called and told us as well that had happened. And then we knew that there was a warrant out for Arvin's arrest, and so he left. I don't know what he did after that.

[Narrator / Host]

Now, who in the cult was where? Gets very complicated in the days surrounding the raid, especially the kids, because many were shipped off to a number of different places in a handful of states all around the country to stay with friends, relatives, what have you. Kerry actually wasn't among the first van full of Zion Society children. She was interviewed, but it was several days after everything went down because she was with Arvin on that actual day. So how did they know the raid was coming because most cops didn't even know it was happening until that morning

[Carrie (Zion Society Survivor)]

they saw me on the news.

[Narrator / Host]

That is Cheryl Naugle. Cheryl, you'll remember, was the private investigator's wife who went undercover as lingerie buyer Suzanne Behrens. Not long before the raid, the Naugles PI business was featured in a story on the local news. And someone in the Zion Society was watching. And I guess one of them ran in to Arvin and said, Suzanne Behrens

[Detective Dave Lucas]

isn't who she says she is.

[Narrator / Host]

She's a private investigator. So I guess they started burning, shredding, getting rid of as fast as they

[Mike Watkis (Reporter / Cult Expert)]

could

[Narrator / Host]

before they were able to get in.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

Wow.

[Narrator / Host]

Wow. I didn't know that.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

Yeah, that's.

[Detective Mike King]

I didn't know that either.

[Narrator / Host]

Back to our main timeline of events. It had been three days since the raid, Arvin's whereabouts unknown. And Mike King couldn't exactly start a manhunt in the midst of trying to manage all of these interviews at the cjc. As one of the only investigators privy to the facts of this case that was heretofore classified. He was one of the only investigators who knew what information they even needed from the kids who they could only keep in protective custody for a limited amount of time. But then he got that notification from the Weber County Attorney's office to call them immediately. It was urgent. So he did. And the receptionist who answered told him that the man he was looking for had just turned himself in.

[Detective Mike King]

And I remember holding the phone away for a moment and looking at Lucas and saying, we got him.

[Narrator / Host]

Arvin turned himself in and was being held at a police station in a town called Cedar City.

[Detective Mike King]

And that was a very exciting moment. But at the same time, you have to think about this fact that as an investigator, it was now, what are we going to do with him?

[Narrator / Host]

Mike explained the situation to his partner, Dave Lucas.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

I just recall we got in Mike's car as fast as we could, told everybody what we were doing, said we're going to go down to Cedar City and pick him up.

[Narrator / Host]

Cedar city is about 290 miles from Ogden. It's in southwest Utah, not too far from Zion National Park. The trip from Ogden to Cedar City usually takes four hours.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

Mike had a little bit of a

[Narrator / Host]

heavy foot, but Mike was determined to do it in less than that. He happened to have a yellow Camaro with T tops from his cartel busting undercover task force days.

[Detective Mike King]

I didn't even think to ask Lucas if he wanted to drive one of the busted down city cars to go and get arvin, which would have been a much better idea given the fact there's actually room in the back seat. But I just said, because of the haste of the moment, grab your gear because we're on the road.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

He's probably going close to 100. But he was going pretty fast because we wanted to get down there as fast as we could.

[Narrator / Host]

Soon enough, the two detectives found themselves on the other side of the flashing lights.

[Detective Mike King]

At one point, as we were into rural utah, we passed a trooper heading the other way and we saw his lights flip on and the dust coming up as he was trying to get turned around and get in behind us. Dave said I something to the effect of, hey, buddy, I think we got a little problem.

[Narrator / Host]

So they radioed the statewide dispatcher to let them know who they were, what they were doing, and that unless there was a particular reason to, they weren't going to be pulling over.

[Detective Mike King]

Then we slowed down just enough that the highway patrolman could pull alongside us just long enough for Dave and me to flash our badges and to see him kind of give us that look of, oh, you've wasted my morning. We continued on, and he became smaller and smaller in our rear view mirror. As we raced our way toward cedar city to pick up arvin.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

Probably only take us three hours rather

[Narrator / Host]

than four to get down there in that truncated time. The two men came up with a game plan. The first thing to do was cover the basics. Make sure arvin knew he was under arrest, advise him of his rights, and make sure he understood what those rights were were Then the real detective work would begin. Their goal was to get arvin to confess. It was crucial that every I was dotted and every t crossed, because if arvin talked but then later claimed he didn't know his rights, anything he said could be thrown out of court.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

But we didn't want to question him there at the jail. I said, let's don't question him there. Let's just get him, get him and go.

[Narrator / Host]

I asked lucas, why? Because the environment, even if you've never been in one, you can imagine police stations and jails are terrible places to hang out and chat. Bare walls, maybe a table and a couple of uncomfortable chairs, not very conducive to conversation, and they needed arvin to talk.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

We knew that we was going to have arvin in a car for four hours. You know, he can look out the windows, he can see. It's more of a relaxed environment. If we went to that jail and tried to interview him there, odds are he's Going to clam up. Why take that chance? Four hours is a long time and he's going to want to talk. He doesn't want to sit there and be quiet the whole time.

[Narrator / Host]

Mike and Lucas entered the Cedar City police station where the chief was waiting for them. He quickly ushered them back into one of the holding cells. There, sitting in a chair, was Arvind Shreve.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

Looked like a nice old man. If you saw him out on the street, you'd just think he was somebody's grandpa.

[Narrator / Host]

When it comes to interview tactics, Dave Lucas firmly believes that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

If you treat a person nice, nine times out of ten, they'll treat you back the same way. And so that's how I approached Arvin. This is Mike King. I'm David Lucas. We're in law enforcement back up in Ogden City, not yelling at him.

[Narrator / Host]

There were three options for what could happen next.

[Detective Mike King]

One is that Arvin would choose to speak to us, which would be preferred, and that he would give a confession and we would be able to move on and solve this case more quickly. Number two is that he might start talking but then realize that he's getting on incredibly thin ice and say, hands off, I don't want to go any further. Or third, that he flat out says, I want a lawyer and I don't want to talk to you guys.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

We told him now, Harvin, you're under arrest. So you've probably seen this on tv. They'll say you are under arrest. And then they give them their Miranda rights. So we gave him his rights and immediately said that he had obtained a lawyer.

[Narrator / Host]

Arvin then invoked his right to an attorney, which means the detectives could no longer ask questions or discuss the case against him in any way whatsoever.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

Then we said, okay, no problem. So let's, let's go ahead and get you in the car and take you back up to Ogden.

[Narrator / Host]

It would be extremely uncomfortable and might even cause a 61 year old man like Arvin some injury to ride for four hours in the rear seat of a Camaro with his arms handcuffed behind his back. So to accommodate him, they put a special belt around Arvin's waist that handcuffs can be attached to so he can be cuffed with his hands in front of him, but still not move his arms around. So with his restraints in place, Mike and Lucas led Arvin to the door.

[Detective Mike King]

As we walked out of the jail, we were immediately confronted by a host of photographers. Somehow they had figured out, and I don't know, to this day how they figured out that Arvin was detained in the jail there. Shreve walked into the police station and

[Aaron Mason]

told officers he was a wanted man,

[Narrator / Host]

wanted to find the quickest way back to Ogden. And of course, we've been in contact with the Ogden Police Department. They're happy to provide him with that transportation.

[Detective Mike King]

And we realized at that point how big this thing was becoming, because, you know, when you're in the middle of a case like this, you're not watching the news. You don't. You don't care what's going on on TV because you're just trying to interview children and get evidence in place and everything else.

[Narrator / Host]

They dodged the photogs, got Arvin in the car, and headed back out on the highway for the long drive back to Ogden.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

We knew we couldn't ask him any questions, so therefore we didn't.

[Detective Mike King]

What you can do, though, is listen. And if they provide admissions or utterances that are unsolicited, you can use that and say, I didn't ask him anything. But he said this or that, so you're still able to have conversation.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

We kind of talked to him in a way that he would talk as well. You know, he'd say, yeah, I like to do landscaping. And that was his thing. And we're just chit chatting.

[Narrator / Host]

Mike wrote in his book Deceived that Arvin was a bit curt in his conversational contributions. He would occasionally chime in, but it was polite small talk, energy. The detectives talked about their families, they talked about religion. Lucas told Arvin it seemed like he had a strong belief in God. And Arvin responded that he did.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

Both Mike and I says, yeah, we do, too.

[Narrator / Host]

Both men were members of the LDS Church. That's the same religion that Arvin grew up in and from which he was excommunicated. They knew he considered himself an authority on scripture and church matters and probably wouldn't be able to keep his mouth shut if he overheard the two of them waxing philosophical. Mike asked dave, how do you deal with people in your congregation who stop coming to church? And that clearly hit a nerve because Arvin blurted out with great gusto, you keep trying and hoping. He said, you need to understand where they are. It's like those of us who live by each other in Ogden. We're friends and never neighbors who help each other, nothing more. We can't talk to you about this. Mike reminded him, you asked for an attorney. This is a gospel discussion. It doesn't have anything to do with what you charged me with. He argued, as he leaned back in his seat, deflated. Detective Lucas decided it was time to change the mood and began to tell Arvin the story of Mike getting pulled over for speeding on their way down to Cedar City.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

And I just laughed. I said, yeah, Arvin, you should have seen it. You know, he's flying down the old interstate, and the police officer pulls up, and he's really got him a good one here. Mike shows him the badge and he goes, oh, I told Arvin says, you can't believe it. I said, you know, even police make mistakes. You know, everybody makes mistakes.

[Narrator / Host]

Arvin laughed at the story. Yeah, we all make mistakes, he said through a smile. Lucas turned around to look at him. I don't care who you are, he said, nobody's perfect.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

Well, Arvin then started opening up to us, and he started to tell us some things. And I distinctly remember Mike going, arvind, you asked for a lawyer. We can't talk to you. And Arvin says, well, I really want to tell you now. I'm thinking about. Oh, man, be careful how you say this next part, Mike. And Mike goes, well, we would like to have you tell us, too. Maybe we ought to call the lawyer and see what he says, see if he'll let you talk to us. And Arvin says, yeah, let's do that.

[Narrator / Host]

A task that proved to be much more difficult than either of them expected.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

We tried to call this attorney, and we couldn't get him. I mean, this guy is ready to talk. I mean, he's ready to bust a bubble and let us out have it. We gotta find this lawyer.

[Narrator / Host]

It turned out that finding Arvin ended up being easier than finding Arvin's lawyer. While they kept trying to get him on the phone, dispatch sent cops to the lawyer's office to see if he was in.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

We even had a police officer go over to the lawyer's house and try to get him, but he just was not home.

[Narrator / Host]

So Mike made a call to Weber County Attorney Reed Richards.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

And Reed asked Mike, so what have you done? And Mike told him what we've tried to do. And Reid says, you know what? If he wants to waive the attorney, you've exhausted everything. Go ahead and do it.

[Narrator / Host]

If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H Vac and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win call 1-800-granger visit granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. Arvin Shreve was ready to confess. As they neared Ogden, Detective Lucas notified the dispatcher that they would be arriving shortly and asked that a room in the jail be prepared. The dispatcher told them that there was a huge gathering of press outside the building waiting for his arrival. They quickly decided they didn't want to risk escorting Arvin through a phalanx of flashbulbs and shouting reporters. So they called an audible and pulled into the parking lot of the Utah Highway Patrol in South Ogden, several miles short of the media frenzy. They had taken a mobile phone with them, a relatively uncommon item in 1994, which Lucas used to call dispatch so their new location wouldn't be broadcast over frequencies that could be monitored by journalists or inquisitive citizens. Mike then checked in with Arvin and reminded him of the charges he was facing. Are you sure you want to do this? He asked.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

He said, yeah, I want to tell you.

[Narrator / Host]

They had gotten Arvin to let down his guard.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

We said, okay, what do you want to tell us? And so he just opened up.

[Narrator / Host]

As they sat in the parking lot waiting for a highway patrol sergeant to arrive, the bright orange sun reflected off the Great Salt Lake to the west as it slowly drifted across the cloudless summer sky down to meet the horizon. The two men mostly just listened as Arvin began to break down the broad strokes of life among his neighborhood group, taking mental notes every now and then, asking for clarification about who in his story was who. Then Lucas proposed an idea.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

You know, Arvin, this is really good, what you're telling us. He says, Yeah, I says, but the judge doesn't want to hear it from Mike or me. He'd rather hear it right from you. He says, yeah, I said, we ought to get a tape recorder and tape record your voice. That way the judge gets to hear it. He says, what do you mean? I said, well, normally we go back, we type everything down, you read it, you sign it. But I says, can you imagine having a tape recording of everything you did? The judge is going to hear that. He's going to go, man, this guy isn't really that bad of a guy. And he said, okay.

[Narrator / Host]

This was a play to Arvin's ego, an offering, albeit a hollow one, to use the full force of his silver tongue to convince people to see things his way. He gets to control the narrative, but truthfully, it was better for the prosecution.

[Detective Mike King]

I. I think it's probably pretty easy for everybody to understand if a jury could listen to him saying, I do not want an attorney. I want to tell you guys what happened. I think you'll understand. Versus me just saying in a report, yeah, he waived his right. I think it's just so much more compelling for a jury to hear him in his own voice with us in the background saying, are you sure you want to do this? For that jury to hear him trying to justify why it was all right and that these little children were promiscuous and really kind of pushing him into having these sexual encounters, all of that is incredibly compelling for a jury.

[Narrator / Host]

I really wish I could play that audio for you, but unfortunately, it's standard practice for that kind of evidence to be destroyed so many years after an investigation ends. Anyway, after a few minutes, the sergeant they were waiting for arrived and he walked everyone into a room in the highway patrol office where they got a tape recorder set up and asked the sergeant to stay with them for a minute so he could be an independent witness to Arvin waiving his right to counsel.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

We turn on the tape recorder and we say, okay, Arvin, go ahead and tell us, you know, what you want to explain to the court. And then we just let him talk. And of course, we asked questions and he gave a full confession.

[Narrator / Host]

As Arvin spoke, Mike King and Dave Lucas, who were both highly experienced interrogators, utilized every tool in their tool belt against the cult leader. Mike began by constructing a sort of mental lie detector in his head by asking questions he already knew the answers to, and then observing Arvin's non verbal responses, changes in facial expressions and body language when he was being dishonest. Mike noticed a twitching in Arvin's neck and a subtle shifting of the eyes revealed his discomfort as he answered.

[Detective Mike King]

And in Arvin's case, after going through all of this, of having him talk about his first kiss and how it felt to fall in love and what his children were like, and all these beautiful flower and puppy dog moments. I then said, have you ever had experiences with sex workers? And his response was immediately, well, absolutely not.

[Narrator / Host]

But Mike knew something about Arvin that Arvin didn't know. He knew Mike had checked his background and knew about his arrest for an encounter with a sex worker years earlier.

[Detective Mike King]

And I said, I know you're lying about that because I have that arrest record in my hands. And at that point, I leaned back and I said, the choice is yours. Because frankly, Arvin, I don't care if you die in prison or If I'm able to go to the judge and say you really were repentant and trying to tell the truth, it's up to you.

[Narrator / Host]

Both detectives took turns asking Arvin about his beliefs and his community. And Arvin responded with different degrees of deception. They weren't a church, he wasn't a prophet. He even claimed he didn't know his neighbors all that well and pretended to struggle with names. While Mike would express a little bit of saltiness at Arvin's lies, Lucas doubled down on the sweet. He reiterated that what they wanted to do here was give him a chance to explain himself and show the judge who he really was by taking responsibility for his actions.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

I had told him, I says, you gotta remember some of those things that you did isn't really conducive to being proper. In order for us to get a warrant, you must have done something that was not right.

[Narrator / Host]

He didn't use strong wording like illegal and against the law, opting instead for softer phrases like improper and not right.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

You gotta watch the wording as you're talking to people because if you say the wrong word, boom. They can clam up so fast.

[Narrator / Host]

Then they dropped the bomb. For this next bit, I'm going to read directly from Mike King's book, An Investigative Memoir of the Zion Society Cult. It was time to begin interrogating Arvin on the charges of child sexual abuse. I reached into my briefcase, pulled out a stack of file folders, and placed them on the table. Arvin, we have been very busy over the last few days interviewing the children from your neighborhood, and I want you to know that we have overwhelming evidence against you. Enough to put you in prison for the rest of your life. I paused and watched him closely. Lucas said, what we're trying to do here, Arvin, is give you a chance to show the judge who you really are. Now is the time to tell the truth. We both stopped talking and waited. Then it happened. In his holier than thou demeanor, Arvin began. My understanding of the offense you are charging me with is that of illegal sexual conduct with children. May I emphasize from the beginning that there was never any element of force, coercion, or persuasion. All contact was initiated by the children in a very natural and casual manner. The purpose of such contact was not lust or sexual gratification, but bonding in the building of a closeness within what was perceived as an eternal family unit. I realize that such is outside the norm of society's accepted standards. I realize also that due to the tendency that some in society have to abuse children or use them for personal gratification that laws must be formed to protect children from such behavior. However my actions are perceived, I recognize that I am subject to such laws.

[Detective Dave Lucas]

I helped him understand that you can't break the laws of the land and not have to pay a penalty. He kind of understood that. Yeah, you're probably right. I shouldn't have done it.

[Detective Mike King]

Part of me hoped that he might drop his head in shame and say, I'm sorry I did this. But the person that I had studied for a month now, at this time, I did not expect him to do

[Narrator / Host]

anything different than he did during his entire interrogation. At no point did Arvin take any responsibility for his actions or admit that he was doing anything wrong. Mike and Lucas went through every accusation from each child one by one. After hearing each name and the details of their assaults, Arvin blamed the child every single time. According to Mike's book, Arvin said one child in particular acted, quote, risky and after detailing his assault on the girl, claimed that it was only bonding and said she, quote, seemed to encourage the contact.

[Detective Mike King]

He built this entire religion to satisfy his pedophilia and then convinced others of it to fuel his fantasies and his desires. And to me, it was a perfect way to end the interview by realizing that the spots on this leopard are not changing.

[Narrator / Host]

Disgusted and exhausted, the detectives wrapped up the interrogation. Although Arvin would never admit to any assaults on boys, and there were several on young boys, after more than three hours, he confessed to 30 felony sex abuse charges. It was midnight when they left the highway patrol office and drove the last few miles of the day's journey to Ogden. Even at that late hour, there was a mob of media ready to greet them. Shouting and taking photos. They ushered Arvin into the building and booked him into jail. There was still a lot of work to do if they wanted to keep him there. But would any of his victims speak out against him and the other abusers in the cult? Mike told me there are two people without whom there would not have been a case against the Zion Society. One is Aaron Anderson, whose confession blew the doors open and kick started the whole investigation. The other you'll meet in the next episode, a 15 year old girl who stood up in front of her tormentors and whose testimony became the heart of the entire case. As Mike swung close the steel bars on Arvin's cell, he asked one final question. Arvin, how often did these kinds of things happen? His answer gave the seasoned officer chills. It was a daily thing, he said flatly. If I asked you what you had for breakfast last Thursday, you wouldn't know. You would know you had breakfast, just not what or where. If you or someone you know is experiencing sexual violence, contact the Rape, Abuse and Incest national [e-mail] that's R A I N N. O R G. Or call the National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800-656-HOPE. Both services are free, confidential and available 247 gardens of Inside the Zion Society Cult was written, narrated and audio produced by me, Aaron Mason. Original music by Alison Leighton Brown. No generative AI was used in the writing or production of this podcast. My sincere thanks to the entire Gardens of Evil editorial team. Your feedback was invaluable. Gardens of Evil is based on the book An Investigative Memoir of the Zion Society Cult by Michael R. King. Available at profilingevil.com on Amazon or IngramSpark. Mike donates all of his proceeds from the book and this podcast to fund child advocacy efforts and criminal justice scholarships. Check out Mike's podcast, Profiling Evil, where he explores unsolved criminal cases from around the world and dives deep into the minds of predators. Find profiling evil on YouTube or wherever you get podcasts executive producers John Goforth and Jeremy Seinen. Gardens of Evil is a production of the Gamut Podcast Network

[Detective Mike King]

SA.