B (3:14)

It absolutely is, yeah. I mean, it's an extraordinary paragraph that, isn't it? Because it really does underlie just how few U boats there are at this absolutely most critical of moments. I mean, the time to strike is. Is at the beginning. You know, just imagine what 100 operational U boats would have done the Atlantic, you know, when. When Britain is uncertain, doesn't have its allies in place, particularly after what follows in May and June 1940 on the continent and, you know, where people are kind of worrying about, you know, can Britain hold on? And stuff, you know, and it's all a bit, you know, Halifax is having his spat with Churchill and beginning of, you know, the end of May 1940 and all the rest of it. Just imagine if there'd been absolute carnage in the. In the seas.

A (3:54)

The thing about German strategy is it's made up as it goes along, always chopping and changing. They never stick to anything, do they? So. So their real problem is, even if you've decided on one thing, another thing is going to be what happens, right, Plan Z is signed off and abandoned.

B (4:09)

Literally less than a year later.

A (4:11)

Exactly.

B (4:11)

It's announced in October 1938, abandoned in September 1939. So the Z plan lasts for 11 months.

A (4:17)

Exactly. So anyway, at the end of the last episode, we left things with the Royal Navy, having had a success against the Graf Spee in the Battle of the River Plate. But however, having lost courageous and of the absolutely ghastly business of Preen in his U boat, getting into Scapa Flow and showing great vulnerability, actually the Royal Navy, it's a proper prestige blow on the balance sheet. Doesn't really matter. Right. But these things do matter, these things do count, particularly at this stage of the war where Britain has got to display competence against its adversary. And the Germans, they look rather good at this U boat business and it's quite clearly a threat. So that's where we left you at the end of the last episode. Where are we as 1940 gets going, Jim, in January?

B (5:03)

Well, one of the supply ship for the Altmark, because you have to remember that these pocket battleships and cruisers and what have you, they need supplying because they don't have any overseas bases, so the supply ships have to come with them. And one of them is the Altmark, who has managed to make it all the way back over Kind of north of Iceland from the South Atlantic in January and is caught near Trondheim on the Norwegian coast. It's boarded by sailors from the destroyer HMS Cossack and found to be armed and holding 299 prisoners of war. So it's an infringement of Norwegian neutrality. But the Americans don't care about that and certainly nor do the British and frankly nor do the Norwegians really, so they get away with it. So everyone's starting to infringe upon these pre war agreements of neutrality and, you know, conditions on which you stop merchant vessels and all the rest of it. But think what would have happened if you'd had a few more 300U boats and 20,000 personnel. I mean, obviously, you know, it's impossible to know because Britain still has 12 and a half thousand merchant vessels. And at any one time, on any hour on any given day, There are about 2,000 merchant vessels sailing the globe on behalf of the British or under British flag. That's a lot. And that's a lot for U boats to defeat. But I think the loss of the Courageous, the loss of the Royal Oak is really, really interesting. And I think what, what is also interest is that this surface force that the Kriegsmarine has developed, which is a fraction of the scale of the Royal Navy's surface force, is designed to attack merchant vessels. But actually, what if the U boats had been given the task of attacking capital ships and warships rather than merchant vessels? The focus is all about cutting the sea lines with insufficient forces rather than thinking, okay, we've got insufficient forces, so how can we best use these to our greatest advantage and make sure that when we do attack merchant vessels, we're doing it with the greatest of ease. Clearly the way to do that is to destroy the warships that are going to protect those ships, what, sink as.

A (7:06)

Many aircraft carriers as you possibly can. I mean, they start in the right place with Courageous, deal with the anti submarine assets.

B (7:12)

How about this for a plan? You get all your U boats together in the North Sea.

A (7:15)

Yeah.

B (7:15)

Between, between north and Iceland, all around there with Shetland, Orkneys and all the rest of it.

A (7:20)

Yeah.

B (7:20)

You get them all ready, you get them in a line and you send out the Admiral Sheer or the Prince Eugen or whatever it is, or the Admiral Hipper.

A (7:28)

Yeah.

B (7:28)

And you send them out as bait. Out come all the warships straight into the U boat line.

A (7:33)

Well, that way, I mean I could, I could see that working.

B (7:36)

Do they think of his plan?

A (7:38)

Of course not, Jake.

B (7:39)

No, sir, no.

A (7:40)

There's a wolf pack, there's A wolf pack to be getting on with, isn't there? This is the thing.

B (7:44)

Yeah. And I thought it'd be fun to kind of in this series and in future series when we go back to return to the, to the Atlantic war. Be interesting to follow a handful of characters and one of the characters I want to us to follow is Teddy Surin. He's a fascinating fellow. Has an incredible career in the U Boat arm but obviously is at the beginning of his career in 1939, 1940 and at this time he is one wo the first watch officer which is basically second in command. The equivalent of the British number one or XO in American terms on the U48 has to be borne in mind that nine U boats have been lost by the end of 1939. So that's quite a lot. You know all of these are men who have been skippered. You know these are all boats that have been skippered by men of long experience. They're all over the age of 25. They're very very hard to replace quickly. But U48 is still going strong. And this is commanded by Capitaine Lightnant Herbert Schulze who's been skippering this particular vessel since April 1939 is part of the now renamed Snorting Bulls seventh flotilla of U47 and Fame and all the rest of it. And U48 has had a pretty good start. It sunk 12 merchant vessels by the end of 1939. And Teddy Surin is, is the, is the second in command. You know he's only 23 years old. He's really called Reinhardt but everyone's always known him as Teddy. You'd also have the other officers you'd have on these, these U boat Mark VII's be a second watch officer and the LI who's the engineering officer. Suren has joined the Kriegsmarine in 1935 but the BDU, the Befellschabe de Jo Boten only in, in 1938. But you know he's another of these guys who's absolutely born to the sea. He's grown up with the Hanseatic yachting school. He loves sailing, he loves the sea in the Navy. He's smart, he's competent, he's imperturbable. He's got a terrific sense of humor. He absolutely totally imbued with the sense that your boat is a band of brothers and you're all in it together. He completely gets all that, loves the camaraderie of being around like minded blokes and is aware by the beginning of 1940, that already the sea, the war at sea is becoming a little bit tougher. You know, the convoy systems made it harder to strike ships. The merchant vessels are now armed. The winter is absolutely brutal. And of course he's starting to lose friends as well, you know, and this is the point about the bdu. It's such a small force that everybody knows everybody. And I think it's really important to understand that for merchant vessels and in our mind's eye, U boats are dark, sleek, stealthy killers. But for the crews, they're claustrophobic, they're damp, they're stinking fetid tin cans and of course, they're potential death traps. And, you know, Sren for example, loses one of his best mates. When U41 is sunk. On the 5th of February and 14th of February, off the coast of Ireland towards the Bristol Channel, they surface. It's early morning fog and suddenly the outlines of ships are looming in front of them.

A (10:40)

And so it's alarm, alarm. Our first alarm, alarm moment of this episode. It's a convoy heading straight for them. They dive, they dive immediately, but only just below the surface. Small crew, so everyone has a very specific delineated role. Schulze is the skipper. He's in the conning tower on the periscope, S below in the control room, Lightning Zern is the engineering officer, the ally, he's on the trim. The captain makes every decision in the attack when to fire, what angle, when to dive. And S is at the torpedo attack computer, the tdc, which is the thing calculating the offset of the shot and all this sort of stuff. And he's waiting and he's listening, listening to the captain's instructions. Obviously it's quiet on the boat. Everyone's concentrating. Schulz angles the boat to 180 degrees and warns everyone that in five minutes they need to be ready to fire. Soren says march in survey of escorts. Schulze replies, enough. Five minutes. Pass Schulze. Tubes one to four, standby. Tube one, fire. Tube two, fire. Three, fire. Four, fire. So off all four torpedoes go. And then they wait. Torpedoes swim away from them, counting on a stopwatch because they know how fast they go. They do 30 knots once they're up and running, so they know the distances. It's 1800 meter distance, that's 120 seconds. Two minutes on the stopwatch. Everyone just absolutely tense, waiting to hear the result of the firing the torpedo. They're doing what they can to keep the sub periscope depth.

B (12:03)

Yeah, that is really really difficult because you've got to keep it below the surface, but you know, if it's slightly choppy, you're being moved around all over the place.

A (12:09)

Yeah. But there's a thud. A dull thud. They've hit. Schultz orders a turn to starboard. They've struck the SS Sultan Star, which is an 11, 300 ton freighter full of Argentinian beef. Just the sort of thing you need to be striking. They've been spotted by an escort, though. Schultz orders a deep dive. Two more explosions. Two more torpedoes have hit. U48 is creaking and groaning as she dives, as the pressure ratchets up on the. On the boat's iron hull. Interesting. They get 120 meters. There's a fuselage of 8th depth charges really, really close. She bounces about, lurches and rolls. They can hear the ping of the Asdic and the low of propellers, of screws above them.

B (12:50)

Our sound effects department's good today, isn't it?

A (12:52)

They're explosions. The thud of the. Of the depth charge all around you, the explosions of the depth charges. Water starts coming in and someone takes a hydrophone from the radio operator and he can hear the convoy disappearing. But then the really overwhelming sound of the escorts looking for them, which sound like a nail being drawn across a plate. I won't attempt that one. More depth charges. There's another explosion. She's rocked again. Then five more in quick succession. But somehow U48 remains in one piece. They haven't actually. They haven't split a hull, not yet.

B (13:25)

And so drops a little further. More depth charges and explosions. They seem to be getting closer and U48 is creaking and groaning once again. They go down to 135 meters, which is as deep as they can go. Suddenly, you know, they're on the seabed and they reckon they're now on the Cockburn bank and another destroyer's raking over them. The ping of Asdic is quite audible. More depth charges ping, wang, ping, wham. The U48 is rolling. And that wasn't very good, was it? And tossed off the seabed and thumped back down again. And Surin says, we can scarcely stay on our feet. We look for a handhold and hang on wherever we can. I mean, you can just imagine all these men kind of sort of staring around. You know, you would stare at the ceiling, wouldn't you? But of course you can't see anything but dials and oh, my goodness. I mean, it's so tense and no one is daring to speak and no one's barely breathing and more attacks. An hour passes, then another. There's still no let up from the escorts and you know they've attacked the merchant ship at around 7am but they're still being attacked at midday. And Surin calculates that depth charge is falling at 4 meters per second and explosions after 28 seconds. So they're detonating at around 110, 120 meters, so only 15 to 25 meters above them. And Schwarzer wonders whether they should release some oil, but Suren urges him not to. He says much better just play dead. Instead they stay there, there all afternoon. I mean, can you believe it? So last Friday of depth charges, eight of them at 8pm so this has.

A (14:52)

Been going on literally all day. 13 hours of this being harried. Finally the destroyers call it off. They wait another half hour. When their pumps start up, it's with a high pitch humming that CERN can't bear because after all, noise, noise is everything. They'll give themselves away. They slowly lift up off the seabed. They begin moving forward and gently climbing and eventually break the surface. They open the hatch, go onto the bridge of the conning test. Soren feels his eardrums throb with the change in air pressure and the tension and the noise and the, the whole thing. To their horror, they find themselves surrounded by bright lights. They're encircled by 20 fishing boats off Cockburn Bank. But it's night, there's nothing stirring. They, half submerged, they use the electric motors to toddle away in isk. And they do escape. Or do they? They just clear, they spot more merchant vessels. They start immediately, start firing. They sink another 100 seconds after the firing. That Salvation Schulze says, there you are, sir, and attacking again and getting hit as the best medicine. I mean these guys are rock hard.

B (15:51)

They're rock hard, aren't they?

A (15:52)

Well, well, you know, and this is that, this is the thing. When we were talking about the British U boat effort in the Med, you think how motivated you have to be to do this kind of fighting, right? So all those Royal Navy chaps, it was all about sort of phlegm, wasn't it? And it was all about imperturbability and, and obviously for the raw nave of King country and all that sort of stuff, right? It's how, it's how you'd express, expect them to express themselves, right? No one spinning a line on themselves and all that sort of thing. What's motivating these guys? These are guys are very dedicated to the Kriegsmarine to the U Boat Service, to the Third Reich.

B (16:25)

It's their brotherhood, man.

A (16:26)

Yeah, it's very interesting, isn't it? Because this is so awful as a way of life. You've got to really want to do it and you've got to really believe in why you're doing it, haven't you?

B (16:36)

Yeah. And you got. You got to. You're living for your crews. You're living for your crew and you're living for the kind of getting back off patrol, aren't you? And you're looking for the excitement. It's the cut and chase. It's just the adrenaline surge of it.

A (16:47)

All the moral baggage of sinking merchant vessels.

B (16:50)

Right, yeah. No, you're not thinking about that. I mean, do you remember we had Toby Crawford? I said, you know, how did you feel about killing all these people? And he said, well, you know, you do feel about it, but. But it's war.

A (16:58)

Yeah, I know, but isn't that interesting that submarine crews and it's like bomber crews attacking cities, got to be able to make that moral distinction that it's part of a bigger war effort? And there we are. You're not shooting other lads in uniform is my point. You're into that bit of gray area of the war, aren't you, with this campaign?

B (17:16)

Yeah, you are. And I think, you know, I mean, do you remember when, you know, Tubby Crawford said that, you know, after sinking of the Conte Rosso or one of the, you know, there was a faint flicker of a smile from Wanklin? You know, there's not a huge amount of difference between Schultz's There youe Are sure, and attacking again and getting a hit are the best medicine. It's cut from the same cloth, aren't they, really?

A (17:34)

They are, really, yeah.

B (17:35)

But, you know, the bottom line is this the most there are operational in the Atlantic at any one time? Of 10U boats? Atlanta is a big old place. It's not very many. They sink 56 merchant vessels but lose three of their own, so only seven of those survive. Donitz has been working on the assumption that his U boats need to sink half a million tons of Allied shipping a month to bring Britain to its knees. Now, I just want to point out that this is based on absolutely nothing. It's been plucked up there, pulled down and that is the figure. But actually, half a million tonnes is not going to bring Britain to its knees. That is a lot of shipping, but it isn't going to bring us to its knees. It's just a guesstimate. But the Point is, so far they're not achieving anything like that amount. Yes, for all the pain that's being caused, they're not getting close. What's more, the Atlantic war is about to take an enforced break because on the 4th of March, just as Donitz is preparing to send all his wolf packs out into the Atlantic again, he resorted to stop all further sailings and instead they're told to head to Norway.

A (18:37)

So this is far from ideal. Donitz isn't happy about this, of course, because. Because this isn't a good thing. Donitz isn't happy. The crew's unhappy. Erich Topp, for instance, is the first watch officer on U46. His best mate is Engelbert Endrass is also the first watch officer on Prien's U47. Topp's 25. He's volunteered for SEA back in 1934. He's not from a naval family. He joins at the U boat arm with Endras in 1937 and they both pass out the following year in 38. In June, they join U46 at the same. At the same time as Endras joins U47. But U46 isn't having a great run. They've only sunk a couple of ships, one of the sort of runts of the U boat litter. Topp is very bright and capable and he writes this journal, as you say, Jim, it's a fine write.

B (19:19)

Oh, my God, he's amazing. One of the greatest bits of literature to emerge from the Second World War, which comes at his pen when he's returning from a long patrol. He writes this homage to his friend. It's absolutely heartbreaking. You know, we should get you to read it out and put it, post it on the Patreon because it's so good. Eric Topp does not require a ghostwriter and he keeps this diary where it's more like a journal. So it's, you know, he jot stands his musings at various points. They're always very thoughtful and very considered and actually very, I have to say, humane for the most part.

A (19:52)

But it points to the nub of the problem of what he thinks is the problem of deploying U boats to Norway. A submarine is designed to be a commerce raider and it requires vast areas of sea space to be effective. Deploying U boats in Norway's narrow fjords, however, vent against all experience und common sense. They're perfectly good reasons for the Germans that make excellent sense, actually, which is the iron ore supply line from northern Sweden and also to stop the Allies taking a foothold in northern Europe.

B (20:18)

And it's plus one, minus one thing again, isn't it?

A (20:20)

Exactly. Exactly. And Norway remains very much on Hitler's mind for the rest of the war, to the point where he's convinced to station hundreds of thousands of soldiers there who twiddle their thumbs while the war plays itself out in northwest Europe? Hitler, ideally. And again, here we go. Here's a strategy that's cogent one minute, ditch the next. Actually, what Hitler really wanted to do is keep Norrie and Sweden neutral. But Raeder convinces him otherwise. To invade and conquer Admiral Raeder. And the sinking of the Altmark accelerates this change in the planning.

B (20:49)

Do you think the Fuhrer is happy when he hears the news about the Altmark?

A (20:51)

I'm going to go. No.

B (20:52)

Do you think the Fuhrer goes into a rage?

A (20:54)

I'm going to go, yes.

B (20:57)

And do you think that Hitler then decides that what he really needs to do is invade Norway?

A (21:00)

Yes, I'm going with that. Yes. I'm also going to say, Jim, coming back at you, do you think he's going to want to do a two for one, a twofer and scoop up Denmark as well, knowing Hitler as I do?

B (21:11)

Yeah.

A (21:13)

So Operation Weser Ruben, and this is a classic. He decides he wants to invade Denmark and Norway, so they have to plan an operation, but they haven't fixed the date. It's the absolute classic Hitler planning, isn't it?

B (21:25)

When are we going to do this, boss? Oh, I don't know, whatever.

A (21:27)

But this tumble of events that change his mind, that literally make him up as he goes along, and other people having to keep up with him, make up as he goes along. But then Goering's Forschungsamt, which is his intelligence service, they pick up Finnish diplomatic.

B (21:39)

Traffic, his own private intelligence service, they.

A (21:42)

Realise that from Finnish diplomatic traffic that the Allies are going to mine the shipping lanes. And so it's announced on 2 April that Weser Rubing will go ahead at 5.15am on 9 April, so that, as ever, they've got a week to stand up and go.

B (21:58)

And by the way, can I just say that we will be doing Weser Ruben at some point.

A (22:01)

At some point, yeah, exactly. So the German. Off they go. The Germans set sail on the 7th of April. They're spotted by the Allies immediately. 30 Allied bombers, RAF bombers attack the naval groups heading for Trondheim. But it's early in the bombing war, so what do they do? They miss that same evening, Admiral Sir Charles Forbes, Commander Chief Home Fleet he puts his ships to sea. Destroyers and mine layers are already in Norwegian waters, but they're planning for the planned mining of the Leeds, which is at the mouth of the Vestfjord, the gateway to Narvik, and a bit further south at Alesund.

B (22:32)

This is part of the Allies strategy which Churchill first suggested back in September 1939. The French and the British governments can't agree on this. French are really nervous about it. They don't want to provoke the Germans, all the rest of it. So the decision isn't finally made until this point in the war. So the idea is to. If you mine the leads, the leads are the fjords which lead through northern Norway and lead to a railhead, a port and a railhead through which the Swedish iron ore fields then take their loads, put them onto ships, sail through the fjords and come back down again. So the problem is that both Sweden and Norway are neutral. So if you mine Norwegian waters, you're effectively acting very aggressively against them. But this is to prevent the Germans from successfully getting their iron ore down to Germany and down the Norwegian coast. So this is the whole point of this and the reason everyone's been doing deliberating it is because to do so is going against Norwegian neutrality. But anyway, they finally agree it. But at this point, so this is. They are there to finally do this minelaying operation when Wesergrubung is launched. So. Sorry, I should have added that little background.

A (23:40)

Yes, but for the Royal Navy's point of view, it's a happy coincidence that they happen to be in town when the Germans gonna show up, is what I mean. So, yes, you are sending the Home Fleet, but you've already got a presence there anyway. I think what's interesting about this though, this is, this is the aggressive spirit that Churchill has brought very much to the Royal Navy. The Chamberlain government, not quite sure, and the British and French governments at this point, they've considered entering the war on Finland's behalf, helping the Finns out against Soviet Union, but they, they basically chicken out of that. There's a role of your counterfactual dice. And, and I think what's, I mean, obviously what's interesting about this is in the end, this entire, this entire, entire daybacle results in Churchill becoming Prime Minister because of his taste for aggression, because he's determined to fight the war rather than try and trim.

B (24:29)

I think there's a really strong case for doing it in September 1939, but there isn't one by April. That's the point.

A (24:34)

Yes, exactly.

B (24:35)

You Know if you're going to do it, be decisive and do it, but don't faff around.

A (24:38)

Admiral Forbes orders the Home Fleet to try and bring German capital ships to battle. Churchill in the meantime without a consultation has ordered four cruisers at Rosyth packed with troops to disembark them and then ahead with full speed to seek battle as well. So Churchill isn't talking to Forbes about what he's got planned and there's a proper clash. The following morning, the 8th of April, the destroyer HMS Glowworm intercepts the German heavy cruiser the Admiral Hipper, commanded by.

B (25:03)

Keperten Hayer, the forementioned hire, the guy who's prepared the pre war strategy.

A (25:08)

Glowworm is part of the Westfjord force that's been left behind though to look for a sailor lost overboard to start with. Glowworm thinks well we'll get out of here but then thinks no, we're forced to fight. Hit repeatedly but keeps firing back. And this is a real, there are some real, the finest traditions, the Royal Navy stuff coming, ladies and gentlemen, by the way, she's hit repeatedly but keeps firing back. With her decks on fire, skipper Lieutenant Commander Gerard Rupe gives the order to ram the Admiral Hipper. God save the King, Jim. Glowworm goes down, she rolls over, she blows up and sinks killing all but 38 of the crew. And Rupert posthumously wins the Victoria Cross. But there you go, I mean if you want purist traditions, Nelsonian traditions of the Royal Navy, there it is, there you go.

B (25:49)

Ramming a. Ramming a heavy cruiser.

A (25:50)

Yeah, come on. Meanwhile the battle cruiser HMS Renown and nine destroyers are ordered to prevent the German ships reaching Narvik. Bad weather. So it's not until the next morning, the 9th of April that German battlecruisers, the Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst and that destroyer force are spotted. Both starts shelling each other, slugging out and despite the swell and the weight of raw navy fire, the Germans, they're basically convinced they're facing a stronger opposition than they really were. And Gneisenau's main fire support systems destroyed so the Germans just sack it off meanwhile.

B (26:21)

This is amazing, this is just ridiculous. So the heavy, the German heavy cruiser, this is a heavy cruiser, okay, so this is like the Scharnhorst, okay, that is the scale you're talking about. This is one of their very precious heavy cruisers. I think they have four heavy cruisers didn't then two battleships which are still not complete, the Tirpitz and the, and the, and the Bismarck. So this is you Know, the Bluker is one of their big guys. This is more valuable to them than the Royal Oak is to the Royal Navy, because I haven't got enough of them. It's commissioned in September 1939 and is, oh, it's one of only five in the Kriegsmarine. It's sailing down the Oslo Fjord when it's hit by batteries on an island in the middle of the fjord at almost point blank range. And I've been here and I've seen that you can still see bits of the Blucher on the side of the side of the Oslo Fjord. And when I was sailing down the Oslo Fjord last year, I looked at this and I just thought, what on earth were they thinking? Yeah, I mean, it's one thing firing, you know, being hit by a lucky shot at 13 miles, it's quite another being hit at 200 yards. I mean, seriously, this is absolutely nuts, you know, so. So it is totally bonkers that the Bluka has been there. It's hit at 7:23am and it sinks. You know, 300 of the crew are killed in action out of 1600. And another cruiser, the Lutzol, is also badly damaged. So, you know, they are taking some seriousness. You've had a chunk of the Knysnau. Knysnau's been hit. The Admiral hipper has lost 40 meters. Yeah. So the admiral hipp has lost 40 meters. The Knisenhaus had its firing gears knocked out. The Bluk has been sunk completely. One of five heavy cruisers. This isn't great. I mean, Wetter Ruben, which we will come to in due course on this podcast, is a great success for Germans on land. You know, Denmark swiftly capitulates, of course, and German troops, both from ships and from false. From the air, as well as heavy support from the Luftwaffe. You know, that means they can take Oslo very quickly and they kind of surge northwards up through the central valley and go through Lillehammer and all the rest of it. But at sea it is an entirely different matter. And on 10 April, the German naval forces are surprised at narvik. And at 5.30am on 10 April, a British destroyer, HMS Hardy, unleashes torpedoes and blows up the German flagship, the Wilhelm Heidkamp. So this is in the fjord, the Vestfjord, running into Narvik, because these ports on the Norwegian, the western Norwegian coast, they're not on the absolute facing the ocean, they're not facing the North Sea, they're down these little narrow inlets that run roughly kind of sort of west to east, they blow up the German flagship, the Wilhelm Heidkamp, killing 81, including the force commander. Another German ship is hit and set on fire. And then as more Royal Navy destroyers arrive, a second German destroyer is sunk and the action continues down the Westfjord. Hardee is sunk in turn, but a German supply ship with all the Bergja's guns are sunk. So this is, you know, General Dietel's mountain troops which are being sent to Narvik. So they've lost all their guns. And over the next two days, the Royal Navy continues to get the better of the Kriegsmarine. Five of the remaining German destroyers are trapped at Narvik. And three days later Warspite turns up, which is a battleship, of course, and nine Kriegsmarine destroyers are sent to the bottom. You know, when you've only got 30 odd in the first place, that's a blow.

A (29:25)

This is why Sea Lion. These encounters are why Sea lion is a bad bet on any level. Because after all, the Kriegsmarine has had a real. Taken a real kicking in Norway. And not only that will take a further real kicking look at the way the Royal Navy is determined to deal with the Kriegsmarine if it comes to it. This is in, you know, a battle that the Navy has chosen in Norway rather than an existential fight in the English Channel or the North Sea. Whatever would have come with Sea Lion. When you're considering the counter faction of Sea Lion. Look at the way the Royal Navy dispatches the Kriegsmarine and also commits to dealing with the Kriegsmarine in Norway. I think that's the. This is the sort of Battle of Britain. Elephant in the room is what happens in April in Norway. The Germans know this perfectly well because they've taken an absolute kicking. Nine destroyers sunk with that encounter with war spy. It's incredible.

B (30:14)

Yeah. And they do have opportunities to get their own back with their U boats. But of course the U boats are operating in these incredibly narrow confines of the fjords and this is not the place to operate with U boats. You know, Eric Topp is quite right about that and, and he is in U46 still and U48 with, with Schulzer and, and Teddy Soren. They're at the mouth of Fjord U47 with Gunther Preen also joins them, but none of them sink single ship because they've got really dodgy torpedoes. All the magnetic pistols which are the detonation devices, they're all duff and so don't work. U46 never gets a chance to fire. It's a completely unlucky U boat. Just can't get its mojo at all. They're repeatedly bombed and depth charged. U46 spends a week between the 10th and the 18th of April dodging attacks, and they're completely impotent. But the Royal Navy and the RAF are able to take the toll on the Germany surface fleet. So the cruiser Konigsberg is also sunk, and so too the Karlsruhe. So after the Lutzow hit on the 11th of April, that has to be towed back to Kiel. So by the end of the Norwegian campaign, half the German destroyer force has been sunk, as were one of two heavy cruisers, two of six light cruisers, and six U boats. So, you know, the others have been badly damaged, leaving the Kriegsmarine much depleted. Now, on top of this, the Luftwaffe has also lost 242 aircraft in the campaign. So it's not an insignificant amount, but, you know, there's no getting away from it. It's a complete crushing of the Allies on the.

A (31:35)

On land, in terms of other assets, a disaster. I mean, that's a disaster for the Kriegsmarine. And no two ways about it, what we'll do is we'll take a quick break and we'll come back to further disaster on land, which will have ramifications on sea. See you in a tick.

C (31:52)

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A (32:47)

Hi.

C (32:48)

I'm here to pick up my son, Milo. There's no Milo here. Who picked up my son from school?

B (32:53)

Streaming only on Peacock.

A (32:57)

I'm gonna need the name of everyone.

B (32:58)

That could have a connection. You don't understand. It was just the five of us.

C (33:02)

So this was all planned. What are you gonna do? I will do whatever it takes to get my son back.

B (33:08)

I honestly didn't see this coming.

A (33:09)

These nice people killing each other.

B (33:12)

All her fault. A new series streaming now only on Peacock.

A (33:21)

Welcome back to. We have ways of making you talk. I mean that epic battle in Norway, the Royal Navy, Absolutely. Why is that not thing that's up there with Kate Matapan and all that? Is it, is it simply, you know, ABC is better at publicity?

B (33:34)

No, no, no, it's not that at all. It's because, because it's overshadowed by the catastrophic defeat in Norway. That's, that's the truth of it. And there's no hiding that. Except that, you know, Britain's a maritime power and you know, that's where strength lies and that's where its strength is going to be. And in the all important battle of the Atlantic, these early signs that the German, the Kriegsmarine surface fleet is not all that it cracked up to be. When they put most of their eggs in that particular basket, I would say.

A (33:59)

Augurs, but very, very often when we've talked about Germany and its understanding of naval warfare, we say, well, they're landlubbers, of course, so they're never going to be good at it. But you could flip that and say that the reason the British are bad at land warfare is because we're a naval power. So like, of course we're going to be bad at it.

B (34:14)

I think what one has to remember about Norway, just very briefly while we're on this subject, is that Norway is, you know, the main effort of the regular British army is in France. Okay? There was no intention whatsoever to ever send troops to Norway until the last minute. Suddenly you're having to get all those fifth Batt and the fifth Battalions are the TA battalions, which have only been called up in August. So they're now regular soldiers, but they're not your top draw, they're your weekend soldiers. And yeah, suddenly they're in Norway. And one of the problems is in the haste of getting all their shipping together to send this expeditionary force, they made an absolute schoolboy error of putting too much in one ship. So, you know, all the guns are in one ship. And that was because of speed, the need for speed. So you put all your artillery in one ship, off you go. But the trouble is if that then gets sunk on route, you're in a spot of bother, which is what happened. So the British in Norway end up going there with insufficient firepower and without enough ref support. So it's not like their individual soldiers are too bad. If anyone wants to find out a Little bit more before we get to a series. By the way, there's an absolutely fantastic novel called the Odin Mission, which is the first of the Jack Tanner series, which is all about the battle in Nokia. Oh, and a rip snorting yawn it is too.

A (35:29)

I don't doubt that for a moment.

B (35:30)

Right. Everything you need to know in fictional form or fictionalized form, I should say. But anyway, we're not here to talk about campaign. That's for later. We want to talk about Britain's naval glories.

A (35:40)

Yeah. But after Norway, the fall of France, and this is the thing is there's suddenly this tumult and tumble of events that follow. The other reason this naval encounter may fall into sort of the overlooked file is because of what's to come immediately after it, which is the sudden collapse of the Netherlands, of Belgium and ultimately of France. But what you have at the same time is an evacuation from Norway. 24,000 British and French troops need extracting from Narvik, not a small number, and they do this without the Germans knowing it's even happening. And yet again, the Kriegsmarine is late to the party there, or doesn't even realize there is a party. I think it's fair to say Raeder eventually sending a naval force to block Narvik, but it doesn't work. I think what's really interesting though is what is left of the Kriegsmarine after this encounter and their active surface fleet is watching Jim go.

B (36:31)

It is, it is now only 1 out of 2 heavy cruisers, 4 destroyers, 2s boats full stop, plus a few U boats, of course, but, but that's it. Scharnhorst and destroyers are on route when the carriers. I mean, this is, this is a bad moment because the, the Scharnhorst and these destroyers are en route to Narvik when they spot HMS Glorious ship that's converted into, into an aircraft carrier. And you know, since April, naval engagements had all but stopped in the North Sea. So the Glorious is sort of steaming back to Scupper Flow at a sort of leisurely 17 knots with no aircraft, armed already and not expecting to hit anything and suddenly run straight into the path of the Scharnhorst, you know, which, which fires its 11 inch guns and absolutely pummels it. The flight deck is smashed, the whole ship goes up in flames. The destroyers and HMS Ardent and Acosta surge forward through their own smoke screen. Ardent launches eight torpedoes before being pummeled and sunk. And the Acosta then managed to get a torpedo into the side of The Shahn Horse. So the blast kills 48 of the of the Scharnhorst crew and reduces their speed to 20 knots. Glorious is a blaze and sinks soon after as does Acosta. But the destroyers attacks have put their only heavy battlecruiser out of action. I mean it's terrible for the British because out of those three ships only 40 men from 1,559 crew survive. I mean it's another battle, there's no getting away from it. But the Scharnhorst is out of action again. Limps back to Trondheim, repeatedly bombed by the RAF and Fleet Air Arm. But of course, you know, they all miss apart from one bomb which doesn't do an awful lot of damage. Eventually heads back to Germany on 21 June again it's attacked by Swordfish and Beauforts but they're driven off. Reaches Stavanger and then to Kiel, but it's out of action for the next six months. The Gneisenau is also hit by the torpedo on 20 June from a British submarine. Also limps back to Kiel where again it remains for the rest of the year. So that's the surface fleet gone effectively, effectively it's pretty much out of action.

A (38:23)

It is striking in these naval encounters, isn't it, how you will have a set of circumstances where only 40 men of 1600 survive when things go wrong in the open sea that's as likely to be the result as anything else, isn't it?

B (38:37)

I mean even think about the numbers that were lost on the Royal Oak.

A (38:40)

Yeah, it's very unusual when you're talking about, you know, two battalions going in, say that's the equivalent of number men in infantry uniform that only 40 would survive from an attack put in by 1600 men, isn't it? You know, the way the butcher's bill works at sea is really very dramatic, isn't it? And what that must mean if you're.

B (38:59)

On a ship and sudden and brutal.

A (39:01)

Yes, yeah. You know, as you say, Glorious is just toddling along, they're thinking nothing of it and suddenly under Scharnhorst's guns. It's a shocking thing when we get.

B (39:10)

Onto our next series which will be on the Hood and the Bismarck. Yeah, There'll be plenty of opportunity to go into this particular point in greater detail.

A (39:17)

Death.

B (39:18)

Because that's exactly what happens.

A (39:20)

Yeah.

B (39:21)

And you know, there's no question from, you know, testimonies of people on the Prince of Wales which was accompanying the Hood at the time and so on, and from the Three survivors of the Hood. It's absolutely clear that everyone is keenly aware of the risks. Yeah, that, you know, as you are steaming into battle, you know, you're going into battle, everyone's like, okay, you know, the countdown is on. You're getting closer and closer and closer to your enemy. You know, any minute now, the first shells are going to hurtle over. Any one of those shells could be catastrophic. And you as a of the crew are keenly aware of what that can mean. It's chilling, to put it mildly. It's also worth pointing out that the mighty Bismarck and the mighty Tirpitz are still not complete. You know, they are not the finished article yet. So they are not at sea. So I think there is the Admiral Hipper is still around and possibly the sheer. But I mean, that is it. The Kriegsmarine as a surface fleet, which is after all the main striking arm of pre war plans to destroy Allied and particularly British shipping in the Atlantic, is kaput for the next six months. And what a crucial six months. I mean, you know, this is the summer and autumn of 1940. You know, this is where Germany has to force Britain to its knees. Reminder of that quote that we had from Churchill in the Battle of Britain series. Hitler knows he must defeat Britain or surely lose the war. The stakes could not be higher. And yet again, you know, you're starting to see this early stage of the war, opportunities for the Germans that have gone begging through bad planning, Hitler accelerating entrance into war, all those sort of things. I mean, you know, no one is expecting in the summer of 1938 when the Z Plan is announced that they're going to be at war the following, you know, within 11 months, you know, they're expecting to be at War in 1942 or 1943 or something like that, in which case the Z Plan has a sort of, you know, you know, the tiniest chances of coming into fruition, but not within 11 months. And suddenly Hitler's impatience, that urgency to get Germany into war, that has absolutely put the Kriegsmarine very much on the back foot because they're not ready for this battle which is so important for them. And that is the truth of it. And over and over again you see the little successes they have, the Royal Oak, the illustrious, the glorious, whatever it might be, they are accentuating those successes, but covering over the enormous cracks in the entire strategy of the Kriegsmarine and indeed the whole strategy of Nazi Germany. It's really, really important when you consider that, that for all the successes the individual, like momentary successes they have, they are not really, really adding up to a hill of beans when it comes to bringing Britain to its knees by crushing its sea lanes. That is the problem anyway. There is the fall of France and of course, and during the first nine months of the war, from September 1939 onwards, Germany makes absolutely no effort whatsoever to bomb ports in the uk. Not at all. There's no bombers going over Liverpool or Southampton or anything.

A (42:11)

Yeah, but that's tied up with the idea. That's a red line, isn't it, that once you start bombing ports, you're bombing cities and then they might do it back to you. There's a squeamishness, isn't there, about bombing what are effectively civilian targets, isn't there? Even though they're happy to sink merchant shipping, there's a feeling that, you know, you can't quite do that.

B (42:28)

Yes, I suppose so. But at the same time, I thought the whole point was that Hitler was supposed to be a ruthless bastard. He didn't care about these things.

A (42:33)

Yeah, but he's not, is he, though? Because. Well, no, because he prevaricates and he's. And he's playing politics also.

B (42:37)

He's not very good. Well, there's that too many makes the wrong decision.

A (42:42)

He's not very clever.

B (42:44)

If it's all out war, it's all out war. Right, yeah. You know, and he does say, you know, so they're laying mines around the coast. That's. And that does destroy a number of vessels. And U boats are told from the out outset to attack without warning all ships identified as hostile. Well, you know, you can identify anything as hostile, can't you? You know, as a merchant vessel can be identified as. And so they continue to flagrantly disregard the engagement rules. So on the one hand you're squeamish about hitting a port, but you're not squeamish about going against kind of, you know, for example, the Athena on day one, you know, so there's sort of double standards here.

A (43:14)

It's kind of odd, but it's all odd, isn't it? This is the point. Everything we've described so far about the Nazi effort has been disjointed, isn't it? It's. None of it adds up. And also, if you've got done, it's trying to make his point. He' what he wants, isn't he, via his U boat arm. The thing is, by the fall of France, although 800,000 gross tons of shipping have been lost in the first nine months of the war, British tonnage on the register is the same as at the start of the war. Essentially there is a squeeze on how organized shipping is, but when France falls, as we've said before, you get this sudden rush of merchant vessels from the rest of the world, from the rest of Europe, Belgium, Norway, Denmark, France, etc, and this, actually, this increases Britain's shipping capability, capacity, increases Britain's control of shipping. You know these ships sail to Britain, don't they?

B (43:58)

Yeah, exactly. They're dancing to Britain's tune. And I think the interesting thing is, you know, 800,000 gross tons of shipping, you know that in the first nine months. That sounds a lot, but do you remember that, that figure that Donuts has plucked from the sky, which means absolutely nothing, but it was 500,000 tons a month. They're not even close to that.

A (44:14)

No, no, no, no, no. So what this means is, although the Germans are sinking shipping, British Britain's shipping capacity has increased with the fall of France, although the knock on also is that the Germans have control of the Atlantic coast and that. That's a different factor.

B (44:28)

Yeah, but even so, 3rd of September.

A (44:30)

3Rd September, you do have 18,710,000 tons of dry cargo shipping above 1600 tons. But after the fall of France, it's 21 million, which is a lot. So the U boat arm is a lot to bite off, hasn't it? Is the truth, isn't it?

B (44:45)

Well, it does. And then if you think again, you go back to that 500,000amonth to get, get 21 million tonnes worth is.

A (44:52)

You've got to get your finger out, haven't you? But with the fall of France, as well as, as well as, as you also have this issue that there's the French fleet now who's going to take control of it and the Italians entering the war. So the Mediterranean becomes another focus of Royal Navy effort, is the thing suddenly. Because at the start of the start of the series, we said, well, you know, the Royal Navy at the start of the war is three things to worry, worry about the Far east maintaining a China station, but that's all right, the Japanese aren't at the threat, the Mediterranean, but you can plug either end and the Atlantic. But if, if, if the French fleet falls, that changes. And if the Italians come in, which they do, it changes things also, doesn't it? This is what happens is now what's going to happen with the French fleet and so some do defect to the Allies.

B (45:34)

You know, I mean, my own thoughts on the, on the notorious Attack on the French fleet at Mirz El Kebir is, you know, this has to be put into some kind of context. I mean it's, it's always sort of made out that, that you know, Britain is the bogeyman here and sort of war criminals for launching their attack on the French fleet. But there's plenty of French ships that do come over to the British side as Frenty, you know, they defect into British ports from France. All the, all the French fleet in Alexandria hand over, they go, okay, fine. And you know, Admiral Rental at in Mers el Kabir is given the choice, you know, surrender or come over on our side or get blown to pieces. You know, if I was him I would have, you know, I, well obviously I'd have come over onto the Allied side. But he has consigned those sailors to their deaths, not the British. He had a choice. Yeah, sit out of the war in a prison camp or get killed.

A (46:26)

And a big hello to all our French listeners.

B (46:30)

Well.

A (46:33)

I think the Royal Navy has little option in that situation. They have little option but to do what they do at Moza Kebir. But we were saying a moment ago, it's all out war, isn't it? You need to be ruthless. And Hitler's, the Germans are being peculiar and ruthless about some things and soft on others. And here's the Royal Navy going well, okay, you're not going to allow flags and surrender to us. That's that. I'm afraid it is in the traditions of British ruthlessness in the Royal Navy, isn't it? Let's be honest now, let's not pretend that we're gentlemen.

B (47:01)

But it's not like they turn up and just open fire on them and kill lots of French sailors. There is a choice. That's my point. But if you're an infantry, you know, if you're a French infantry battalion and you're faced with the Germans overwhelming your battalion Italian, what do you do? Do you, do you fight on until you die like, like, like a Japanese troops on Iwo Jima or do you put your hands up and get put in the bag? Explain to me what the difference is here.

A (47:26)

Well, the difference is it's, it's Britain versus France. That's the difference. This is a thousand, this is a chapter in a thousand year history, Jim. That's what it is.

B (47:35)

I did not surrender to those last leaves. I mean exactly.

A (47:39)

Often we've touched on this in, in the podcast is Britain is extremely ruthless about prosecuting its second World War. We are not jolly cricket playing Gentlemen, that is not what. That is not the story of the Second World War, of us muddling through and saying, oh, dear old chap, I'm awfully sorry we don't have the facilities to take you prisoner. And all that. That idea, that sort of self image. No, you're not gonna. If you're not going to surrender, then I'm afraid we have to sink your ships.

B (48:04)

And then the Royal Navy is the best navy in the world and the largest, you know, and it's just, you know, gotta get past this kind of sort of Captain Mannering view of Britain's war effort.

A (48:15)

We've got past it, Jim. We've expressed it out loud. More than Mers El Kebir, there's the attack on Richelieu in Dakar. In Dakar, which I think is very, very interesting because. And that's a prolonged battle that the Navy can't quite make stick and the Fleet Air army involved in that. And what's very interesting about that is that's an attack on a battleship in a harbour with Swordfish. That then leads us to lessons learned for an attack on battleships in a harbor later in the year year at Taranto. And the Richelieu encounter is incredibly important to how they formulate the plan for Taranto. And it's seen as a. Well, there's this continuity. Exactly. This is continuity in the way the Navy's doing things. There aren't just these standout moments that pop up, there's this grinding, relentless continuity of operations at sea that is actually the sort of hallmark of how the Royal Navy goes about its war. There's this permanent continuity and continuum and particularly in the Fleet Air Arm who are having to work it all out and learn it, figure it out and design, design tactics and strategy. You know, you've got the Canal Kampf in July. So this is the other thing that's going on all at once, isn't it?

B (49:18)

Yeah, this is a Channel battle. For those of you who haven't listened to our Battle of Britain series, this is a sort of the prelude, the start of the Battle of Britain. We decided actually it started on the 1st of July, didn't we? God, we've really sorted out some, some big, some big historical issues this year. Who's the greatest general when the Battle of Britain started?

A (49:35)

But at the same time, this means the Home Fleet Fleet's being kept home, which means Atlantic trade is very vulnerable. And although the Royal Navy is the largest navy in the world and the most ruthless in effective, it's. These are a lot of plates for it to spin. If it's protecting the Channel with the Home Fleet. And it's got this stuff going on in Mediterranean and Africa, you know, after all the richness in Dakar, there's lots to do. And this means that the North Atlantic is much more. Or the Atlantic is much more vulnerable.

B (50:03)

Yeah. And Admiral Forbes, who is the commander in chief of the. Of the Home Fleet, he's furious about this because, you know, he thinks it's absolutely inconceivable that the British wouldn't know about an invasion attempt less than 24 hours before it's going to be launched. And also inconceivable the Germans would launch it while the RAF is still going strong. And he's absolutely bang on the money. And his point is, there is not a single part of Britain that can't be, you know, that can't be reached within 24 hours by one of their warships. So why do they need to be, you know, all in the Southeast? They don't at all. They should be protecting the Western approaches. They're not. He's overruled by the Admiralties, overruled by Pound, and that's that. And what this leads to, of course, is what the U boat crews come to term the happy time. And, you know, there's no question about it that although everyone in Britain is keenly aware of the importance of transatlantic trade, the focus in that summer of 1940 is very firmly on the skies above southern England and the Battle of Britain that's raging, actually. And this, in a funny sort of way, suits the Ministry of Information quite well, because it means they can sort of, you know, sweep onto the carpet the kind of growing loss, losses, you know, of merchant vessels which are heading to the bottom of the sea west of Britain.

A (51:14)

Yeah, it's bad, isn't it? In June, it's 134 merchant vessels. In July, it's 102,91. In August, it's over a million tons in all.

B (51:22)

So it's 800,000 in nine months and now it's a million in three.

A (51:26)

Yeah, that's absolutely boggling, isn't it? In our next episode, we'll be looking at some big, big convoy battles and the winter, which is going to be very harsh, of 1940 to 1941. We'll see you soon. And if you want to listen to all of this, of course, go to our Patreon. You can listen to it without ads or our Apple podcast channel and become officer class. We'll see you soon. Cheerio.

B (51:45)

Cheerio.

A (51:53)

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Fascinating.

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It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Limu. Is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

B (52:11)

Cut the camera. They see us.

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