WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk

Episode: Atlantic War: Norwegian Interlude (Part 2)
Hosts: Al Murray and James Holland
Release Date: November 20, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode continues the deep dive into the early phase of the Atlantic War during WWII, focusing on the events surrounding the Norwegian campaign, U-boat operations, and the impact of shifting strategies and miscalculations by both the German and British navies in 1940. Al Murray and James Holland blend historical detail with humor and lively debate, exploring key naval battles, personalities, and the broader effects of strategic choices as the war in Norway erupts and reshapes the Atlantic conflict.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Early Atlantic War: U-Boat Numbers & Strategy

Timestamps: 01:47–04:17

• The episode begins with Admiral Karl Dönitz's own summary:
  Germany started the war with 57 U-boats; by September 1940, after losses and reinforcements, operational strength remained at 57. At any time up to July 1940, only about 6 U-boats were actively fighting in the main theatre, highlighting the limited threat they posed at this stage.

  • Al Murray: "The thing about German strategy is it's made up as it goes along, always chopping and changing." (03:54)
  • James Holland: "Plan Z is signed off and abandoned... It's announced in October 1938, abandoned in September 1939. So the Z plan lasts for 11 months." (04:11)

• Speculation on alternative strategies:

  • James: "Imagine if there’d been absolute carnage in the seas… if you’d had a few more 300 U-boats and 20,000 personnel." (05:03)
  • The discussion covers misallocation of U-boat tasks, questioning whether they should have targeted Royal Navy capital ships instead of merchant vessels.

2. Early Engagements and Character Focus: Teddy Suhren & U48

Timestamps: 07:44–13:25

• Introduction of Teddy Suhren, a young and able U-boat officer, and his close-knit crew on U48. James paints a vivid picture of life aboard—a "stinking, fetid tin can," claustrophobic and dangerous.

  • Key Event: In February 1940, U48’s crew attacks a convoy, launching four torpedoes at the SS Sultan Star. They are depth-charged for 13 hours, survive multiple attacks, and escape before launching another attack.
    • Quote from Suren: "We can scarcely stay on our feet. We look for a handhold and hang on wherever we can." (13:25)

• The hosts highlight the psychological and emotional bonds of U-boat crews, their motivations, and the moral ambiguity of targeting merchant shipping.

  • Al: "You've got to really want to do it and you've got to really believe in why you're doing it, haven't you?" (16:25)
  • James: "It's their brotherhood, man." (16:26)

3. Strategic Missteps & Norwegian Interlude

Timestamps: 18:37–24:29

• The diversion of U-boats to Norwegian waters as the campaign unfolds—deploying them "against all experience and common sense" (19:52).

  • Eric Topp’s Journal: Cited as a remarkably insightful and humane look into the U-boat experience; criticism of deploying U-boats in the fjords where they are ineffective.

• Hitler's decision to invade Norway and Denmark (Operation Weserübung) triggered by intelligence that the Allies planned to mine Norwegian waters.

  • Al, on Hitler’s decision-making: "He decides he wants to invade Denmark and Norway, so they have to plan an operation, but they haven't fixed the date. It's the absolute classic Hitler planning, isn't it?" (21:13)

4. Royal Navy vs. Kriegsmarine: Dramatic Naval Actions

Timestamps: 24:29–31:35

• Battle highlights:

  • Glowworm and Admiral Hipper: Glowworm is lost in a gallant action, ramming the German cruiser after coming under heavy fire. Her commander is awarded a posthumous Victoria Cross.
    • Al: "If you want purist traditions, Nelsonian traditions of the Royal Navy, there it is, there you go." (25:49)
  • The Oslo Fjord and Sinking of the Blücher: A key heavy cruiser is sunk at point-blank range by Norwegian coastal batteries; a disaster for the German surface fleet.
    • James: "It's hit at 7:23am and it sinks. 300 of the crew are killed out of 1600... This isn't great." (26:21)
  • Actions at Narvik: The Royal Navy destroys nine German destroyers and several support ships in and around Narvik, crippling the Kriegsmarine’s destroyer force.

• Strategic Implications:

  • These naval disasters make Operation Sea Lion (a planned German invasion of Britain) impossible.
  • On land, the German campaign is a success, but the naval battle is a catastrophe.

5. The Toll on the Kriegsmarine & British Evacuation

Timestamps: 35:40–38:59

• After Norway, the Kriegsmarine’s surface fleet is nearly destroyed; only a fraction of its heavy ships survive, with the remainder out of action for six months or more.
  • James: "The Kriegsmarine as a surface fleet, which is after all the main striking arm of pre-war plans to destroy Allied and particularly British shipping in the Atlantic, is kaput for the next six months. And what a crucial six months." (41:35)
• The British, meanwhile, successfully evacuate over 24,000 troops from Narvik without interference.

6. Paradoxes and Morality in Naval War

Timestamps: 39:17–44:52

• The hosts discuss the shockingly high mortality rates in naval battle—survivor numbers disproportionately small compared to equivalent land battles.

  • Al: "When things go wrong in the open sea that's as likely to be the result as anything else, isn't it?" (38:23)
  • James: "It's chilling, to put it mildly." (39:17)

• With the fall of France, British control of shipping actually increases as neutral and allied merchant fleets join British registry, offsetting German U-boat successes.

7. The French Fleet, Mers-el-Kébir, and British Ruthlessness

Timestamps: 44:52–49:18

• The controversial British attack on the French fleet at Mers-el-Kébir after France's surrender—the hosts debate whether the Royal Navy had any choice and the larger context of British willingness to act ruthlessly.
  • Al: "If you're not going to surrender, then I'm afraid we have to sink your ships." (48:04)
  • James: "The Royal Navy is the best navy in the world and the largest... gotta get past this kind of sort of Captain Mannering view of Britain's war effort." (48:15)
• The British continue aggressive operations, including attacks at Dakar and influential Fleet Air Arm actions, all part of a learning process that will aid later successes (e.g., Taranto).

8. Shifting Strategic Priorities, "The Happy Time," and Growing Merchant Losses

Timestamps: 49:35–51:45

• With increased focus on defending the British Isles and Mediterranean, North Atlantic merchant trade grows more vulnerable, leading to what U-boat crews called "the happy time."
  • Merchant Losses: In June 1940, 134 merchant ships lost; in July 102; in August, losses total over a million tons in just three months.
  • James: "It’s 800,000 in nine months and now it’s a million in three." (51:22)
• The discussed neglect of Atlantic defense amid the Battle of Britain, and the looming threat that will set the stage for future convoy battles.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The thing about German strategy is it's made up as it goes along, always chopping and changing."
  — Al Murray (03:54)
• "If you want purist traditions, Nelsonian traditions of the Royal Navy, there it is, there you go."
  — Al Murray (25:49)
• "Everything we've described so far about the Nazi effort has been disjointed, isn't it? None of it adds up."
  — Al Murray (43:14)
• "He decides he wants to invade Denmark and Norway, so they have to plan an operation, but they haven't fixed the date. It's the absolute classic Hitler planning, isn't it?"
  — Al Murray (21:13)
• "The Royal Navy is the best navy in the world and the largest... gotta get past this Captain Mannering view of Britain's war effort."
  — James Holland (48:15)
• "It's their brotherhood, man."
  — James Holland (16:26)

Conclusion & Next Episode Tease

The episode wraps up by highlighting the convergence of calamity and opportunity in the north: the Royal Navy's successes at sea offset by catastrophe on land, the strategic vacuum after the fall of France, and the looming escalation of the Atlantic convoy battles. The focus will shift next time to large convoy battles and the "harsh winter of 1940–41."

Key Segment Timestamps

• U-boat operational statistics and strategy: 01:47–05:03
• U48’s February 1940 engagement and depth-charge ordeal: 10:40–14:52
• Operation Weserübung and the decision to invade Norway/Denmark: 18:37–21:58
• Battle of the River Plate aftermath and Narvik battles: 24:29–31:35
• Destruction of the Kriegsmarine surface fleet: 35:40–41:35
• Debate on British strategy and ruthlessness: 44:52–49:18
• Rising merchant losses and "Happy Time" begins: 49:35–51:45

For more WW2 deep dives, join their Patreon or check out the next episode for escalating convoy battles and the crucial winter of 1940–1941.