← WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
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Strain and tiredness induce a sort of hypnosis. You seem to be moving in a bad dream, persuaded not by terrors but by an intolerable routine. You come off watch at midnight, soaked, twitching your eyes raw with the wind and staring at shadows. You brew up a cup of tea in the wardrobe pantry and strip off the top layer of sodden clothes. You do say an hour's intricate ciphering and thereafter snatch a few hours sleep between wet blankets with the inflated life belt in your ribs, reminding you all the time that things happen quickly. And then Every night for 17 nights on end, you're woken at 10 to 4 by the Boatswain's Mate. And you stare at the deck head and think, my God, I can't go up there again in the dark and filthy rain and stand for another four hours of it. But you can, of course, it becomes automatic in the end. That, of course, was Nicholas Montserrat, not in the Cruel Sea, but in his memoir of his wartime career, Three Corvettes.
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Yes. I mean, the life on the ocean wave. Right, Jim. Jeepers. Welcome to. We have ways of making you talk with me. I'm Murray and James Holland for our fifth episode of the Atlantic War. And this episode is entitled the Turning Point. James, are we getting people's hopes up here? It's still only 1941.
- [03:34]
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Yep, a little bit. I think the corner is being turned. Little bit more of life on the ocean waves later on in this episode. But start off, I think it's worth just sort of considering where we're at. I mean, you know, it's all very well to look at these things dispassionately, as I was doing at the end of the last episode, but just consider where Britain is at the beginning of 1941. You know, it's unquestionably a brutally tough winter for the British and her allies. It's always, obviously tough out at sea in the winter months and, you know, it's not being called the Cruel Sea for nothing. But, yes, Britain's won the Battle of Britain, but the country has taken an absolute pounding. I mean, you'll remember when we were doing our blitz episode, how shocked you and I were al about the scale of destruction and how. I know I, for one, had been a bit kind of, wow, it was nothing compared to what the Germans got later on in the war. But it's all relative, isn't it? No other nation had been hit as consistently by bombing as Britain had. And there was the trauma of defeat in Norway. First of all, that was traumatic. Then there's the defeat in France, even more traumatic, the retreat from Dunkirk, that was very traumatic. Then they're constantly coming under attack. Then there's a threat of invasion. There's the Blitz, you know, which has been going on since 7th September. Some of Britain's greatest cities have huge holes in them, piles of rubble changed forever. And you've got the losses at sea. You've also got the closing of the Port of London and east coast and the chaos of the ports and the railway network. You know, it's a lot to take on board. And Britain is a very different place from a year earlier. Think what it was like at the beginning of 1940 and beginning what it is like in 1941. These are two very different nations and Britain has been bashed about.
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And the swirl of political discourse around this I think is quite interesting. Although the press is tightly controlled, you do have the finger of blame being pointed at people in the public discourse. There's a great deal of blame flying around for what happened in France. We're not at the stage where people are reaching for the cyanide anymore like they were in the summer. But what you do have is a country that, yes, it's resisting and holding on, but where is the way out? Where is the hope? However things go in North Africa, because they obviously they get off to a good start in North Africa. They then go thoroughly pear shaped and Britain's yet to experience that as well. This is a febrile time and I think too often we think of, well, we stood together and we stood alone and we stood up to it and London could take it and all that, but the politics is very difficult here. Churchill just has endless badness news, nothing but bad news to deal with. The government has to manage that within the information sphere, keep people on side. Sid is powerless in the face of the night bombing is the truth. And people know this, the British public know that the government's powerless in the face of the night bombing. That's very difficult to manage as a citizen. The idea that your government's powerless so you're even more impotent. And then it's tough for the government to face up, to deal with, innovate and all these things. It really is worth saying, yeah, we've won the battle of Britain. But even then people don't think of it as a victory, they think of it as a, well, we've staved that off rather than a win.
- [06:27]
E
And I think, you know, what they're doing is they're searching around thinking, okay, how can we turn this around? And obviously you can probe at moments of places of that can be exploited, which is the whole point about the North Africa campaign. Get experience on ground test stuff against the weaker Italians. That's the whole thought process behind that. But there's absolutely no question the number one priority is making sure their supply lines are okay because they do have this advantage of having the world's largest navy and world's largest merchant fleet and they do have access to the world's oceans and the world's resources. But you've got to get them and you've got to get them and you've got to get them back again. But of course, first things first. And it's not just getting goods across the Atlantic, it's also making sure that their onward movement is smooth and as we discussed in an earlier episode, getting them out of the ports when there's just total mayhem. And the whole transportation system around Britain, both in its sort of coastal waters and its rail network and transport network, has been thrown completely into chaos by the changing shape of Europe following the fall of France. That's a huge, huge priority. And being unable to distribute these ports and sort out the ports, and obviously there's so much emphasis has now gone on to Liverpool and Clydeside and Bristol and Cardiff. Being unable to do that is as detrimental at this critical hour as the loss of shipping in many ways. So Britain has to sort out the chaos at the ports because the convoy system has to be made as slick as it possibly can be and so that the distribution of imports once they arrive can sort of move on smoothly. And the previous summer the port emergency committees have been set up, but are completely broken down. And this is because they're made up of well meaning officials, but who have very little power or influence and lack the detailed knowledge of the dock working or how to handle goods. They're just not up to it. And they're also competing with staff from government ministries who are at those ports who are sort of saying, well no, we outrank you so we're not listening to you. And they've got incalcitrant dock workers who are basically flicking two fingers at them. They're just getting absolutely nowhere. It's men with clipboards and pipes types who have no authority whatsoever. And so it's just total mayhem.
- [08:27]
A
And the scale of the task is daunting, whoever you are. Although there is some muscle memory from the First World War of having to do this before. It's nothing like the scale of things in the First World War, the U boat menace in effect, and it's knock on effects. So, so much in the British experience at this stage of the war is being confronted with an enormous complex problem and a first attempt to figure it out that doesn't really, you know, you think of the air raid warning system, lots of people evolved, but it actually then has to figure out the actual set of circumstances it's been set up that bears no relation to the imagined one. And that's what you have here, isn't it? Basically this collision with reality.
- [09:00]
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The truth is, by the middle of December, it's still chaos. They still haven't overcome the problems that have suddenly been thrust upon them by the arrival of the Luftwaffe on the Channel and what that means for the east coast trade and what that means for the Port of London. And so on the 19th of December, the government economic Policy Committee decides to set up a ministerial subcommittee. Sounds all vague quangoish, doesn't it? Which is the Port Clearance Committee. And their task is to come up with a solution and quickly, by no later than the 2nd of January, is how to solve the chaos and mayhem at the ports. The first meeting is on the 23rd of December, and a few days later, on the 27th, Churchill intervenes. And Churchill says, it is said that.
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Two fifths of the decline in the fertility of our shipping is due to the loss of time in turning round ships in British ports. Now that we are confined so largely to the Mersey and the Clyde and must expect increasingly severe attacks upon them, it would seem that this problem constitutes the most dangerous part of a whole front. Would you kindly give me a note on A the facts. B what you are doing. C how you can be helped. That last summary is fantastic. Give me a note on the facts, what you're doing, how I can help. It's just.
- [10:11]
E
This is why he's a genius.
- [10:12]
A
Yeah, Boil the problem down. I think maybe from now on, any meeting, I now say, would you kindly give me a note on the facts, what you're doing and how you can.
- [10:20]
E
Be helped, do you think? Keir Starmer sends this to Rachel Reeves.
- [10:23]
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Would you kindly give me a note? I'll. The facts, what you are doing.
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D
Oh, no.
- [10:28]
A
And how you could be helped. Anyway, so on the 30th of December, the committee decides to appoint what they call dictators to the chief west coast port areas, which I love. Yeah, it's very strong actually, called regional port directors and one's chosen for both Mersey and the Clyde within a week and a third appointment for Bristol a few weeks later. And these guys have been given proper authority and power. They can come in and go, right, change that now.
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E
Total authority.
- [10:56]
A
Total authority, but with it total responsibility. They have this authority. They are responsible now for the ports on a day to day basis. So that swings of roundabouts there, isn't it? They're made the legal employer of all the labor in their area, which is, I think, very interesting, isn't it?
- [11:11]
E
Yeah, but there's no question, you know, they are facing our gargantuan challenge because, you know, there's huge stockpiles of stuff that haven't been forwarded on. There's piles of things that no One knows where to put. They're out in the rain, they're getting, you know, steel going rusty. There's piles of everything. There's aforementioned Dilcalcitran dock workers who are not happy they're being bombed. They've been poorly there, definitely. And you've got to coordinate the arrival of the ships, the unloading of the ships. You've got to have better organization of the ships once they're there. They've got to be unloaded, they've got to know methodically where those goods are going to. They've then got a liaise with, you know, obviously the people that organize the stevedores. Then they've got a liaise with the railway and truck haulage firms and warehousing and so on and so forth. I mean, you know, this is a lot. You're talking about thousands of dock workers who are immorale stockpiles of goods that have been uncleared. You need to have a detailed understanding of how to work with those railway networks and so on. And clearly this is a job that's going to require tact, skill, firmness, sound judgment and, you know, let's face it, it's a tall order, isn't it?
- [12:10]
A
But they're given power as well, so they can cut red tape. They can override the local authority and override government as well if they run into someone from central government who's throwing his weight around. And they're answerable only to the Minister of Transport. This is pretty radical, isn't it? And it works extraordinarily. By March, in both the Merseyside and Clydeside, the dictators, as they're called, have turned things around. And there's some carrot with the stick though, isn't there? So they're offering overtime, they're requisitioning warehouses which people are going to get paid for. They're establishing new systems for everybody. So there's master stevedores, there's port authority ship owners, everyone's being rewarded and new cartridge schemes are being worked out. So no one likes a new broom, but if the new broom's offering incentive and has the power to offer incentive and cut through the things that have been delaying that kind of incentive, it's not just that someone comes in and says, my way or the highway, there's money being spent on this as well, which is very often actually the story of the British war effort.
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E
Yeah, and there's definitely brown envelopes going behind Eno in the back room.
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A
So as a result, there isn't a problem of port Congestion really for the rest of the war. There are problems when things get sort of backed up and it's always when the Luftwaffe have had a go. Liverpool only closes once, doesn't it?
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E
The amazing thing is they managed to sort this out in the nick of time because this is all put in place really by March. And that of course is before the worst of the bombing in Liverpool and indeed in Glasgow as well in Clydeside. And Behrens is the official historian of the. She's the only female official historian and she writes Merchant Shipping and the Demands of War, which is an absolute classic, an amazing book. And she writes one or two months in fact of intensive effort applied both locally and at the center, had been enough to dispel, without any increase in facilities, the danger that the cause of the free peoples would come to disaster in this country's ports. It had indeed been dispelled in the nick of time before a state of congestion, properly so called, had been reached. Hooray. It's impressive.
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A
It is very impressive and it just.
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E
Goes to show what can be done when you're not riddled by red tape, legislation, rule books, etc, etc.
- [14:07]
A
But what it also shows is that very often your first attempt to solve a problem fails because that's what's happened. You need a first attempt maybe to outline what the problems are and that the previous effort to fix it is incompetent or fails, but is well intentioned and actually throws into relief what needs fixing. So it's not that the British are just headless chickens in this set of circumstances. I think it's quite interesting to see that kind of bureaucratic flexibility actually and an ability to identify the problem and fix it. When you're sent a memo that says would you kindly give me a note on the facts, what you're doing and how you can be helped.
- [14:38]
E
Well, I'll tell you what it reminds me of. It reminds me of the Ministry of Aircraft Production, the arrival of Beaverbrook. He does basically the same. He runs around like a dictator, gives his immediate minions dictator status, cuts red tape, gets rid of bottlenecks.
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A
I've been reading a lot about the Fleet Air Arm and how he delays loads of types that they need. I'm sorry, he's in my bad books at the moment.
- [14:55]
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Yeah, no, no, sure the detractors on Beaverbrook are justified in many ways, but what he is very good at is singleness of purpose and sorting out aircraft production in the summer of 1940.
- [15:03]
A
Oh absolutely, absolutely. Another factor though is that the French fleet are done. They're no longer in the picture. And of course there's been the Mazel Kebir, full stop to that relationship, and Dakar, of course, with the Richelieu.
- [15:14]
E
But it is worth pointing out that up until June, the French had been providing half the escorts in the southwestern approaches. That's a. On the other hand, there's help coming from other quarters which I think is interesting.
- [15:23]
A
And the story of Canadian naval expansion in the Second World War is a thing that essentially defies belief because in September 1939 it's 10 warships that are up to date, a complete strength of 309 officers and 2,967 ratings of which only half of them are full time professionals. I mean, they're not trying, are they? In September 1939 and by the early spring of 1941, it's 100 Corvettes in service or under construction. A vast naval base on Newfoundland has been constructed with more corvettes and destroyers being built. Every sailor is a volunteer. It's extraordinary.
- [15:57]
E
Currently being processed by the beginning of 1941. I mean, they're still in training camps at this point. They're not in these boats yet or these ships.
- [16:03]
A
But it's coming. It's coming over the hill, basically. And the chief of the Canadian Naval Staff says to his British counterpart that the Royal Canadian Navy was making bricks without straw because they're just scrambling it together and making it happen. And this is in contrast, of course, to the German effort. And as we said, 8U boats at maximum during the happy time, they have a plan for 20. And you know, we keep coming back to this. The Germans never have enough of anything. Whatever their strategy might be, they haven't got enough to achieve any of it. There's a modest plan for 25 new U boats that's fallen behind because of complacency. And one of the fascinating things about Barbarossa, Adam Tooze talks about this, is that they're so short of ammunition production. People are released from the army to go back to work in munitions factories to make the weapons and ammunition that Germany needs. They're so shorthanded and short of kit. So it's little wonder that they can't build U boats at the rate they need to. If they're short of steel and rifle ammunition, the steel crisis from First World War that everyone in the German bureaucracy and state and government knows about. They're very mindful of that in the Second World War, which is going to add to any holdups in building a thing like a submarine. And they're also thinking they're winning, so why bother building anymore? It's working, isn't it, Jim? They're sinking 300,000 tons of shipping a month. It's working, right?
- [17:13]
E
You got the Canadians working up. They're not really part of this series much because they're not really kicking into gear yet. But it's important to mention them because they are working up to it in a very, very big way. But it's fair to say that at the beginning of 1941, it's still predominantly a British effort and it's up to the Brits and the Royal Navy to sort themselves out. But there's no question that there are now many more escorts and warships available for Western Approaches Command now that the Battle of Britain is over. The threat of invasion is gone. That whole concern that was annoying Admiral Forbes, who at the time had been the commander in chief of the Home Fleet so much. That's past a lot of those corvettes and destroyers that are coming out, and destroyers which already exist, they're now being put into the Atlantic campaign. And smaller escorts are also coming out of the shipyards in great number and corvettes especially. And of course there's those 50 destroyers, the four stacks from America that was done in the deal in the beginning of September 1940. And everyone's a bit sort of risible about that and say, well, you know, they didn't really make much difference in 1940, you know, and they were old and all the rest of it. But they're given refits, they're made fit for purpose and there's still 50 destroyers which can still go at 32 knots or whatever and still be armed and still absolutely fulfill a role. And interesting. They're all now called Town class destroyers and that's because they're all named after towns which are towns both in Britain and in the usa, so HMS Newmarket for example. But corvettes are questionably the quickest and easiest escorts to build. And they're a priority for Canadian shipyards as they're rapidly expanding. But also, you know, there's lots of them coming out of British shipyards as well. HMS Gladiolus. It's the first Flower class corvette still undergoing trials back in 1940, which sort of underlines just how new all this is. They're known as whale catchers, designed primarily for inshore auxiliary work. But they do have the range and the sea keeping ability to roam the Atlantic. So although they're pretty small, you know, they're only about 80ft long, they're not.
- [18:58]
A
A lot of fun the way they Handle in the sea though, are they, is the thing. They're a pretty rough ride when you get out into proper ocean swell. But this is a numbers game in so many ways, isn't it? It's about having ships to respond to U boats, eyes on, asdic on and finding the buggers and sinking them or deterring them. At least that's what this is all about. So yes, the Flower class corvettes are unpleasant, but there's loads of them. Yes, the Town class ships are old fashioned, but as you say, they're being refitted and there's 50 of them. No two ways about it, it's a numbers game. And at the beginning of 1941, the numbers are. The Royal Navy has 126 destroyers, 39 sloops, 89 corvettes covering Western Approaches.
- [19:31]
E
So just attached to Western Approaches, it's not including the Mediterranean Fleet, it's not including the Home Fleet, you know, so you've got those destroyers which are supporting the heavy cruisers and the battlecruisers and all the rest of it. That's not included. This is just for Western Approaches Command. Let's have a look.
- [19:44]
A
And RAF Coastal Command is now also moving its attention from the Channel and into Western Approaches. And they've had an update. They've ended up with the Avro Anson which is now replaced by Hudsons which have a greater range of 350 miles. I mean, it's interesting, isn't it, because they are at the back of the queue. Coastal Command, they get Sunderlands. That's more like it. Sunderland's a serious piece of kit that can fly 600 miles out to sea, can carry depth charges, is a proper submarine hunter killer and it has radar.
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E
And it can ditch in the sea if it needs to.
- [20:12]
A
Yeah, exactly. It has a cavity Magnetron Radar, ASV MK1 that then becomes the ASV MK2 that can pick things up from 20 miles at a range of 2,000ft. So the technology is developing and this also goes on the Escort and very quickly as well. I mean, again, there's a similar tale to the cavity magnetron being taken to America, shown to the Americans explaining how to industrialize it and the Americans grabbing it with both hands.
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E
The Germans never invent it in the war, they never know that we've got it.
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A
Can't work it out, can they?
- [20:37]
E
Yeah, so It's a type 286M and.
- [20:40]
A
This means that the U boats have to operate further west, out into the Atlantic, that coming into Western Approaches. What Western Approaches offers the U boats is there's Lots of ships in it. It's canalized essentially. And if that area is too well patrolled and too well protected, they've got to go further out to sea which makes their lives more difficult. Each of their sort is more wearing and more costly. So I think this is the point where really it tips in the Allies favour, right.
- [21:02]
E
It's a tipping point and you know there's changes to structure. It's really interesting that in February 1941 Western Approaches Command moves from Plymouth where it has been. This was based around Southampton, Portsmouth, port of London. Ocean going convoys were going to go out of London through and the Western coaches Command was on that southern route. The transatlantic convoys were going into the Bristol Channel. In one of the earlier episodes we had Teddy Surin being depth charged and sitting on the bottom of the sea. He's in the Bristol Channel, isn't he? Because that's the route. Because it's early 1940. Well it's not anymore. It's now going up to Scotland, up to Iceland, Denmark, Straits, all that kind of stuff. It's completely shifting to go with that. You've now got Western Approaches Command moving to Liverpool and it's got a new commander in chief who is Admiral Sir Percy noble. He's only 50 years old, quite young, senior Admiral and he's absolutely the business again. He's a sort of ball of energy and clear thinking and dynamic and innovative. And he wastes absolutely no time at all in streamlining the organization both ashore and afloat. Basically just bringing new thinking to how they're going to fight the Atlantic War. And actually Churchill had already lined up Liverpool when he was first Sea Lord. So Derby House has been prepared and you and I visited it not so long ago. It's an amazing place right next to the Town hall in Liverpool. It's quite near the seafront on the River Mersey. And massive, bombproof and superbly equipped operational control room is the centerpiece of this huge two story room which is very similar to the Fighter Command control rooms. Isn't it really huge map on the wall opposite a dais, movements plotted on the map so you can see the progress of convoys and warships. And a massive information can be seen at a glance. And I really would recommend anyone who gets a chance to go to go because it's an amazing, amazing museum, isn't it?
- [22:43]
A
It's extraordinary and the way the information is presented. You've got the whole battleground there right in front of you glance and his Noble's office is on the second store, isn't it up. Looking down through the glass at this incredible information scape, it's really quite something. He has a brilliant chief of Staff, Captain John Mansfield, who he brings in. They build up a team very quickly of a thousand men and women. They're on a secure link by teletype and telephone to London. So 24 hours a day, everyone can update everyone all the time without any hitches.
- [23:12]
E
The thing I think is really interesting about this is when he gets there, they finally move up there in February 1941. So just at this time where you sense that there is this sea change, it's not January, February 1941, really, where everything's starting to kick in, because that's when the dictators at the ports are starting to kind of make themselves felt as well. So you see the sea change happening in the opening months of 1941. Derby House opens in February 1941. One of the first things he does is he goes out into the Admiral Noble goes out into the Atlantic to see for himself how the Escorts are working and what improvements might be made. And throughout the trip he experiences firsthand endless interference from Shaw staff, which obviously is stifling initiative and on the spot decision making. So when he gets back, he goes right, this whole way of thinks is.
- [23:53]
A
Going to be overhauled with Mansfield, he recruits a team of a thousand men and women. And women are a really important part of this, aren't they? Is the thing. They're absolutely integral to how this all works. And they make a point of that. When you go to Derby House, there is a clear point of that made. And as well as this link with London, Churchill then moves Coastal Command. So its main effort is based at Northwest Approaches as well. And this means 15 group, which is commanded by Air Vice Marshal James Robb. His headquarters moves to Liverpool as well and essentially merges with the Western Approaches people. They use the same war room. That's not unlike Cunningham's tent being moved next door to Montgomery's in the desert.
- [24:27]
E
Exactly. And it's breaking down into service rivalry, isn't it? Saying, we're not rivals, we're fellow team members.
- [24:33]
A
Yeah, it collapses it essentially, because if the guy's in the same room with you, you aren't thrust and Russoming. Are you in your tent at what might be going on in the other tent? There's none of that. And then now this is really crucial. Seventeen squadrons on 6 March are transferred from Bomber Command to Coastal Command. That is a major defeat for the Bombermen because. Because this is the thing the Air Ministry has Been run by the bomber guys since the idea of bombing became fashionable. Fighter Command is created with the Air Ministry kicking and screaming and not happy about the creation of Fighter Command and the emphasis on fighter defence. They don't like it because it's all about the bomber. And this is a big moment that this should happen. Coastal Command remains under the control of the Air Ministry, but it's under command of the Royal Navy for operational control, which is actually really important. And there are various phases in the war where things are prized out of the grip of the Air Ministry. Meteor engine production for tanks is finally taken off the Air Ministry, which gets British tank production rolling a couple of years later. These moments we have to prize it off the bloody. Not a fan of the Air Ministry, Jim?
- [25:32]
E
No, I'm slightly with you, to be honest. I mean, you know, it's the Air Ministry that spawns Sholto Douglas and Leigh Mallory. For goodness sake.
- [25:38]
A
There we are. Exactly. And what they lean into is training as well. So Noble says there's got to be relentless training for convoy escorts. And this is this absolutely brilliant bloke, Vice Admiral Gilbert Stephenson, who sort of cracked out of retirement, isn't he, and brought back to run this destroyer training school in Tobermory on Mull in the Inner Hebrides. And he's a proper character, no bullshit fellow, all this sort of thing.
- [26:01]
E
Tough bastard.
- [26:02]
A
Yeah, basically, yeah. But this means that everyone has been through the same training process, everyone has the same set of expectations put upon them. There's a uniform system developing that means that you know what the captains are going to do, you know how they've been trained. So there's going to be less into shore interference or offshore interference, isn't there?
- [26:19]
E
Well, it means that everyone knows what they're supposed to do. It's not sort of hell to scale to just make it up on the spot. There is a system here, there is a process and there is the means to allow you to hone that and get better and learn the lessons and all the rest of it. And also now that you've got this influx of escort ships and the full stack destroyers from America, they're now reorganizing these escorts into escort groups. So typically this would contain up to maybe 10. They'll be led by destroyers, but also include corvettes and sloops and so on. And a ship is now assigned to a single entity. And of course, of course that also fosters teamwork and togetherness and learning from one another and all the rest of it. So you're not just Sort of an escort who's one minute working with one group of ships and the next minute another. There's a sort of consistency there, which.
- [27:06]
A
Of course is what you need.
- [27:08]
E
Yeah, it's what you need. And each of these escort groups would have six to eight of these escorts on readiness at any one time. There's also flexibility there and the ability to kind of respond quickly to situations as they arise, you know, which is also a good thing. But I think the other thing is the dealings with the Naval Intelligence Department Division and the Operational Intelligence center, which is down in London, which we mentioned briefly in the first episode. But the nid, the Naval Intelligence Division, had definitely been atrophied by the start of the Second World War. It just sort of fallen into nothingness. But then Admiral John Godfrey is brought into the picture and he brings in plenty of temporary officers drawn from Fleet street, legal profession, from Cambridge and Oxford. Clever people. Godfrey's very dynamic. This is what spawns the Double X Committee, for example. And Godfrey's dynamic, he's got huge energy and a bit like Noble. He's also a great innovator. And the NID has a central headquarters in a new low ceilinged and bomb proof concrete bunker known as Lenin's ii, alternatively as the Citadel. But officially it's the Operational intelligence center, the OIC. And this is manned 24 hours a day by Godfrey's Intelligence Division under the command of Admiral Jock Clayton. And Clayton has been described, described as a man of unruffled calmness, impossible to rattle and with very shrewd judgment. You know the type, don't you?
- [28:29]
A
Yeah, of course, yeah.
- [28:30]
E
He retires to his club every lunchtime.
- [28:31]
A
Oh, absolutely. And he knows people in high places. Their job though, the OIC's job is to keep tabs on what the Axis naval forces are doing. And they're split up into sections with their relevant jobs. So the German surface ship plot, the Axis submarine plot, the two busiest sections.
- [28:46]
E
There'S an Italian plot and the Axis.
- [28:48]
A
Submarine plots, also known as the U boat Tracking Room. And this is the busiest station and originally it' commanded by Captain Ernest Thring rn, who is kind of old school and a bit past his sell by date, but he has with him a 37 year old lawyer called Roger Wynne who's a reservist. Wynne has had polio in his childhood, but he's a brilliantly clever man and he can work out what the Germans are going to do and he can predict German U boat behavior.
- [29:11]
E
He just has this uncanny knack of being able to sort of with his mind and tune into Donitz. Basically. Just uncanny, you know, he's just got it. He's on his wavelength. So he's sort of thinking how Donitz would think, think thinking how U boats would think. And he's absolutely obsessed with it. And he's a bit of a wizard is the truth of it.
- [29:26]
A
And he's then promoted extraordinarily. He's replacing Thring as head of the U boat tracking room. And because he's a civilian, this decision has to be made by Dudley Pound has to be signed off, but he is promoted at the start of 1941.
- [29:38]
E
So here we go again.
- [29:39]
A
We've had 15 months of the war. The problems are offering themselves and the solutions are squeezing their way through. So by the start of March of 1941, you've got Western approaches sorted, you've got the dictators in the ports, you've got the OIC Revital, you've got ships coming along, the Royal Navy just around the corner. Everything's getting sorted and being organized. So we're going to take a quick break and then we'll come back for some life on the ocean waves. So get a warm cup of cocoa and a sour Wester on for this next part.
- [30:09]
D
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Tis the season for all your holiday favorites like a Very Jonah's Christmas Movie and Home Alone, all on Disney Plus.
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A
Did I burn down the jewelry? I don't think so.
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C
Then Hulu has National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation.
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E
We're all in for a very big Christmas treat.
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- [31:44]
A
Welcome back to we have Ways of Making Talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. Now, Jim, before we get back to the travails of the Atlant, I mean honestly, all I'm thinking of right now is windscreen wipers and rain on the glass and not being able to see a single thing sheeting across. But you know that footage where you see ships pitching and basically the bow goes underwater and then they come out of the Atlantic roller? I mean, all that, Right? Anyway, well, we're doing a live show by the way, just a little nugget of information for you here that before we get back to at the Briny Deep alongside the other goal hanger shows, which are myriad now, of course there's probably going to be more goal hanger shows by the time this event comes around than there are now anyway. And it's a weekend thrilling shows, Q and A's, panels and it's called the rest is fest brackets including way of ways to make you talk. And it's from the 4th to the 6th of September next year, 2026, it's the 4th to the sixth of September next year at the South Bank Centre in London Lake London's swanky South Bank.
- [32:40]
E
Taking over the whole of the south.
- [32:41]
A
Bank, aren't we exactly taking over the whole thing on the 4th of December we have wave subscribers. Tickets will be available because we're going to be on Sunday. We're going to spread across the weekend is the intel I've received. But we're going to do our we have Ways podcast on Sunday, September 6th at 1600 hours. So general sale will be the 11th of December at 10am so basically you've got a head start. If you're a We have Ways member, a patron for early access to the we have Ways live show, become a member@patreon.com Right. Right. Okay, Jim, back to the Briny Deep. Why not?
- [33:14]
E
Yes, get back to the Atlantic now.
- [33:15]
A
We promised you life on the ocean waves in the last part, having got through all the extraordinary operational and bureaucratic and technological changes that the Allies and the British. This is a phase of the war where it's the British doing it, making the decisions, figuring out what to do.
- [33:29]
E
But fascinating, isn't it?
- [33:30]
A
It's incredible. And so many echoes of what the army then does later. Like the training. You standardize your training so you know what you're going to get out of your shop. Ships. That's like standardizing your infantry doctrine and artillery doctrine so you know you're going to get from your battalions and from your batteries and your armor.
- [33:46]
E
Yeah. The tactical air force is working hand in glove with the Army.
- [33:49]
A
So much of it is of a piece, Al.
- [33:51]
E
It's the Navy. Is the senior service worth making that point. And they're leading the way, right?
- [33:56]
A
Well, they're finding their way. I don't know that they're leading quite yet, are they? Because the army is about to have a problem tying its own bootlaces in the desert. But anyway, I'm enjoying this. Let's not worry about the army in the desert. In North Africa right now.
- [34:07]
E
We're in naval mode at the moment.
- [34:09]
A
Yeah, exactly. So we started this episode with Nicolas Montserrat and his description of the conditions at sea. And these young officers on these destroyers and corvettes and so on, they have enormous responsibility, don't they?
- [34:20]
E
And particularly at this stage of the war where there's not huge numbers of escorts. I mean, you've still got convoys with a brace of protecting escorts or half a dozen or whatever. You know, you haven't got tens and 12. Of course, the equipment isn't as good as it's going to be later on in the war. And convoys are big, cumbersome beasts. They're very difficult to manage. And I think it would be a good idea to mention a great friend of the show, Peter Gretton. Later Admiral Sir Peter Gretton. Those of you who've been listening to the podcast consistently over the years will remember that we did a series on Convoy HX231 and featured very heavily a chap called Peter Gretton, who later became Admiral Sir Peter Gretton. But at this point is still a young first lieutenant and he enters the Atlantic story. And in addition to writing his book about that convoy, he wrote a whole lot of other works as well. And up until January 1941, Gretton has been number one first lieutenant on the destroyer HMS Cossack, which in 1940 is commanded by Captain Philip Vyan, later Admiral Vian. Remember, he's part of Task Force west, isn't he, in D Day, part of the Invasion fleet. But anyway, at that point, he's a destroyer flotilla captain and they're part of the Home Fleet and based at Scapa. He's taken part in the Narvik battle, but also they're surface raiders, like the Germans, you know, have been trying to do as well. And they're attacking German coastal convoys running down the west coast of Norway. And they're pretty successful at it, too, frankly. But they're also operating in those just sort of dreadful seas as the winter kicks in. And the big problem, problem for these destroyers is invariably supporting the big cruisers who don't like to let up the speed. You know, we've got to chase the Admiral Hipper, we've got to go full speed ahead, and it doesn't matter about the sea and how big the waves are. And of course, the problem is, in bad weather particularly, destroyers are sort of flung all over the place, made much worse by the speed they're expected to maintain to keep up with the cruisers. So everyone knows that in these conditions, it is incredibly dangerous to be out on the upper deck in bad weather. And I don't know if anyone's ever seen a wartime destroyer, but they are not surrounded by health and safety measures. I think it's fair to say there's basically nothing between the edge of the deck and you. There's maybe a sort of a thin chain or something, but that is literally it. Yes.
- [36:24]
A
They're not that bothered.
- [36:25]
E
No. So in one morning, during the hunt for the Lutzo, Gretton and several others are trying to rescue a lifeboat which is on one of its davits or whatever has come loose next to the foremast funnel. And they're doing this when suddenly four of them are washed overboard, including Gretton. And Gretton wrote, I was lucky enough to be washed back through the midship's guardrails by the next next wave, being picked up by the captain of the Pom Pom, who jumped down very quickly. I was shocked and badly bruised, but had nothing broken. And I went straight up to the bridge to report to the captain D, who issued a reprimand for leaving the ship without permission. But the other three are all lost. Can you imagine how lucky he was over the seas? A wave comes in, shoves him straight back on again. I mean, absolutely extraordinary. But of course, you know, this is winter. It's in the northern part of the North Sea. You haven't got a hope in storm conditions. Absolutely terrifying. And those other three, they're gone. Destroyers don't really ride the waves. They roll the waves just pitching like this all the time, very, very badly. And he says, you know, force of the sea was unbelievable. Heavy steel lockers would be torn from the deck and lifted neatly over the guardrails. No one and nothing was safe on the upper deck. I mean, crikey, absolutely nothing on board is watertight. So everyone is wet the whole time, everyone's bruised and battered because every time you drive move, you're flung around like back and forth. Can you imagine? After his dip in the North Sea, they get back to Scapa. He then has to spend a week in hospital, basically hypothermic.
- [37:48]
A
But he has a career ahead of him now. He's dried out early January, he's given command of the S class destroyer HMS Sabre, which is a First World War ship. But we said in a previous episode, the First World war is only 22 years ago, 23 years ago at this point. It's not that long ago.
- [38:03]
E
Get over it, it's fine, get over it.
- [38:05]
A
And the Navy can update because she's been refit several times, she's gone quick, she's sleek. He goes aboard Sabre in Northern Ireland where she's finishing her refit as an ocean going escort and he thought she looks a bit too small for the Atlantic and has a fortnight to get to know the ship before she sails.
- [38:22]
E
And he goes. This interval had been invaluable for me for I was able to get to know the ship thoroughly, to brush up my sextant sites and to study the problems of ocean convoy work, which were all new to me. I mean, it's not massive preparation, is it, for what's to come?
- [38:35]
A
No, there's a fair deal of crack on old chap at this point, isn't there? Their first job is they're part of an escort group, a three ship escort group, which is two destroyers to corvette and they're meeting convoy HG53, which is 22 merchant vessels coming from Gibraltar and they meet up with HG53, but en route Corvette, the HMS Anemone, is detached to search for survivors of a torpedoed ship. Finds them but doesn't rejoin. This is the sort of alarums and excursions of escort groups, as you could be called away and then you might be diverted to something else. So although there are these groups, they're not necessarily permanently coherent, are they? This reduced escort group now, which is of Sabre and Leamington, join the convoy HG53 on 13th February 1941. But it's February. What's the weather going to be like, for heaven's sake?
- [39:21]
E
Just a bit. It's going to be filthy, isn't it? Let's face it. Yeah.
- [39:24]
A
And two destroyers for 22 merchant vessels, that's a stretch, isn't it? It's a big ask. And convoys, of course. The thing about convoys is you can only go as fast as the slowest ship, making sure everyone's paying attention and received their order and is keeping up and. And all that is extremely difficult, isn't it? So they could be strung out for miles across the ocean, people could get left behind, people can go in the wrong direction. I mean, we had that amazing family story a while ago about a convoy trying to maneuver in fog and half the convoy getting the message, the other half not. And ships colliding with each other. They're complex, difficult things to manage.
- [40:01]
E
Yeah, well, my, my great mate, Chris Gatenby, he's a Merseyside pilot up in Liverpool, he invited me up to do this convoy simulation and it was just amazing because you sat there and you can see all the ships and everything and you're all moving in a line, you're doing the zigzagging and all the rest of it and you can just change the weather conditions. So it's fine when it's sunny, but you start adding in wind and you start adding in rain and cloud. And then night and I mean, you know, crikey, bad weather at night and a blackout. I mean, how do you do it? And Gretton finds night escort work incredibly strong. He says, you know, I didn't really worry about the U boat so much. I was just concentrating on keeping station, you know, and you can well imagine it, can't you?
- [40:41]
A
Just incredibly difficult. After first, his first night, they're still in station, but the weather gets worse and worse and worse. There's a south westerly gale blowing by dusk and she's rolling. Sabre's rolling so badly the gyro compass breaks and the Asdic starts to go wrong and their port beam of the convoy and they choose two ships to keep an eye on, which are tankers, because they're more identifiable in the dark. Gretton says to the officer of the watch, you stick to those tanks like glue. And he comes up to the bridge three times during the night to keep an eye on things. He sees the tankers each time, but at first light he sees to his horror that there are two. They're with the two tankers, but the rest of the convoy has gone.
- [41:17]
E
So they've kept station on these tankers absolutely brilliantly, but the tankers have parted company with the rest of the convoy. So Gret's just going, oh, my God, what do I do? A long worrying Day and night followed. Visibility was still poor and no trace of the convoy could be found. Then at dawn next day we were able to see some stars. So fixing our position and by comparisons with the convoy's position which had been received by wireless, we were able to rejoin with our charges before dark. I mean it really underlines that, you know, this is a pre GPS age.
- [41:51]
A
I mean but the stress involved in that, you know we live in an age where people get upset about having to empty a dishwasher, honestly, I mean. But these troubles aren't over because a wave comes in, floods the fuse box on the bridge, puts all the lights out on the bridge for the rest of the trip. So they can't work the sounding machine except by hand, which is time and labor consuming. The echo sounding machine is also put out of action. Basically all he's got working is the engines. They hold a torch over the compass bowl. I mean it's amazing. They hold a torch over the compass bowl to keep an eye on it.
- [42:23]
E
Try and hold that. I think I can read it.
- [42:25]
A
The boat's being tossed about so the compass is being tossed about and the bloke with the torch is being. I mean it's very, very difficult. And they can't use a chart.
- [42:31]
E
Yeah, you can forget your chart. Chart work. How do you do chart work? Because there's water coming in, starts soaking everything including the maps and attempts to slide a parallel ruler over a wet chart in a heavy sea were not good for the temper.
- [42:42]
A
Oh God.
- [42:43]
E
I mean that's understatement of the year, isn't it?
- [42:45]
A
The trip is just a relentless nightmare. They enter the sheer passage between the Hebrides and the run into the Clyde and he thinks he's going to hit rocks because the visibility is so bad. At one point they miss ramming one of the merchant vessels by a hair's breadth. And the merchantmen don't signal to the standard of the Royal Navy, let's put it that way, or the desired standard. Standard. Gretton realizes this. He orders the escort. Sabre is ordered to escort the Clyde section of the convoy, which is of three ships. Even as they enter the Clyde, sudden heavy rain squall reduces the visibility so much he can't see the ships any longer that he's supposed to be escorting into the port nor the boys marking the channels through the minefields. And when the rain clears they lost two of the ships.
- [43:22]
E
You can't see diddly squat. He can't see a thing and none of his instruments are working and there's no lights on in the bridge.
- [43:28]
A
It's crazy. They find one of them but not the third. And when they finally dock, he learns that the third ship's go to Liverpool but hasn't told anyone.
- [43:36]
E
Yeah because he's expecting to have his knuckles wrapped and he's absolutely despairing. You know, he's sort of crowing around, sort of thinking where the hell is this ship? And it's just, it's just bugging off without letting anyone know. So he says. So ended my first escort in command. It had been free from enemy interference and no headlines would flood the newspapers with our exploits. But perhaps it had not been quite so simple as the report Convoy HG53 arrived safely. Suggested jests. He's definitely in the stoic Society.
- [44:03]
A
It's 100% stoic. Oh I love it. So as you've said in the notes here Jim, the Atlantic war is not for the faint hearted but it's got to be fought. And so you've literally the devil in the deep blue sea here, haven't you? You've got to do it.
- [44:15]
E
But hats off to these guys, don't you think? I mean this requires nerves of steel, imperturbability of steel and just an ability to put up with shit of a threshold which is way beyond anything I'd be prepared to accept, I have to say.
- [44:32]
A
But what's interesting though is the Royal Navy is expanding, adapting, finding solutions, finding people, finding people from Civvie street, which I think is really, really interesting. Finding a way of responding to a campaign imagined it would have to fight one version of. But because the Germans control the Atlantic coast of France, you'd have been able to contain the U boats if, if that weren't the case, if they were coming from Germany. The war was always going to be global if you're in a Roman the Royal Navy. But it's taken on such a different complexion and yet here they are within 15 months of the war from 1939, 1940, the start of 1941, 18 months into the war they found the solutions and they're finding the way to deal with it. It's truly extraordinary that you know an institution can, can do this, can pull this off.
- [45:15]
E
But also al one of the reasons for that is because they're big in the first place. So when you suddenly need to expand a whole load more, the foundation stones are really good. You've got competent, capable people. You don't have to wait till halfway through the war to find out who the good guys are. You've got them on tap right from the word go. And you've got enough of these people like Peter Gretton who can take command of ship and man up and they're equal to the challenge. And allow these RMVRs and RNR types to come in and bolster the numbers. Goodness for the senior service is all I can say.
- [45:45]
A
Well, hurrah for the Royal Navy. Jim, I was just finishing your thought there. I mean, if I had a tricorn hat, I'd throw it into the air right now is how I'm feeling.
- [45:51]
E
But we are actually going to have only one more episode in this series and we're going to see in that final or series because we always want to end on a good night. A dramatic turn in fortunes for the Royal Navy.
- [46:01]
A
Go to our Apple Channel, our Apple Podcast channel. Become Officer class. Subscribe become one of us or go to the Patreon Become even more one of us. Join the independent company, become a weird ways patron and we'll see you again next time for part six of the Atlantic War where, well, turns of fate are multiplying. See you soon. Cheerio.
- [46:18]
E
Cheerio.
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A
And Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
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Cut the camera.
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