WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk

Episode: Bader, Berets & Apache Helicopters

Hosts: Al Murray & James Holland
Date: October 6, 2025

Overview

In this characteristically lively and discursive episode, Al and James reunite for an old-school “war waffle,” blending sharp historical insight with trademark humor. They revisit the legend (and myths) of RAF hero Douglas Bader, delve into the peculiarities of WWII memoirs, and leap into the modern era to explore the Army Air Corps and the experience of flying Apache helicopters. The conversation then unspools into the quirks of military legend-making, combat kit origins, and a sharp critique of British high command decisions—especially the RAF’s failures in the defense of Malta. Tangents abound: from the "Lost German Girl" footage to the origins of the Denison smock and maroon beret, and finally a passionate debate on wartime leadership and the perennial problem of military mediocrity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. War Waffle Returns & Reflections on “We Have Ways Fest”

• [02:04–02:38]
  Al and James celebrate the community feel from their recent festival, and set the stage for an old-school, free-ranging episode.

2. Revisiting Douglas Bader and “Reach for the Sky” (Paul Brickhill)

• [02:38–08:23]
• Al recounts the over-the-top prose in Bader’s biography, highlighting both comedic and revealing moments from postwar military myth-making.
• The ways in which faults are recast as virtues ("pulverizing dynamism"), and the challenge of drawing real insight from hagiographic memoirs.
• Notable Quote:

  “Yes, my pulverizing dynamism will daunt any civilized...”
  — Al Murray, laughing at Brickhill’s prose [05:41]

• Discussion about Bader's assertion: “I will not yield”—potential T-shirt material.

3. Army Air Corps—Legacy, Modernity, and the Apache Experience

• [09:02–15:37]
• Al’s visit to Middle Wallop (Army Air Corps HQ), reflecting on the heritage from glider pilot regiments to modern combat aviators.
• Description of the immersive Apache flight simulator:

  “Totally immersive for about an hour. We were flying for about an hour and it's completely immersive. You're completely convinced you're doing it as you move around in the cockpit.”
  — Al Murray [12:30]

• Contrast between the simple flying skills of WWII fighter pilots and the multi-tasking complexity of modern helicopter operations.
• Discussion of the Army Fly Museum and historic artefacts (horsas, hamilcars, etc).
• Regimental banter about origins and roles, and the evolution from gliders to rotary-wing.

4. The Social and Banter Culture of the Regiment

• [14:54–15:37]
• Al recounts dinner fun and the tradition of playful nameplate theft and regimental ribbing, including his own “parachute roll” off the table.
• Anecdotes illustrate the strong sense of lineage and pride mixed with friendly intra-Army rivalry.

5. Cold Realities of Postwar: Winding Down, Helicopter Trials, and Service Interplay

• [15:37–16:03]
• Brief mention of the postwar winding down of glider operations and the experimentation with helicopters.
• Reflection on the collaborative spirit (and friction) between Army and Navy in the adoption of new aviation technology.

6. YouTube “Lost German Girl” & Military Iconography

• [16:08–17:29]
• James, housebound with Covid, describes being haunted by footage of the so-called “Lost German Girl.”
• Sparks discussion of how such images become enduring mysteries and points of internet speculation.

7. Mythbusting: The Denison Smock, Parachute Brigade Legends, and The Maroon Beret

• [17:29–19:14]
• David Willey’s research debunks the legendary “Major Denison” (the smock is named for “denim”), clarifies details about other equipment, and the real origins of camouflage.
• Myths about Daphne du Maurier choosing the maroon beret are revealed to be charming fabulations—she herself denied them in a letter.
• Notable Quote:

  “She said it's not true. I didn't pick the maroon beret, but I love the story and I hope people carry on telling it.”
  — Al Murray [19:23]

8. The Perennial RAF–War Office Rivalry: Paratrooper and Glider Pilot Bureaucracy

• [20:37–24:15]
• Al narrates from William Buckingham’s “Paras” the bureaucratic infighting between RAF and War Office over the creation of airborne forces, with comic and exasperating consequences.
• Stories of resourceful figures like Louis Strange, and Churchill’s inability to force through airborne expansion against Air Ministry stalling.

9. The Strategic Disaster of Malta (1940–1942) and RAF Command Incompetence

• [24:27–35:44]
• James passionately critiques the failure to send Spitfires to Malta, the misplaced personnel (notably Hugh Pugh Lloyd), and the appalling combat results (e.g., 43 Luftwaffe victories for zero RAF, [26:12]).
• The inability of high command to recognize or act on vital technical and tactical realities—repeated requests for “more fighters” never specify the need for Spitfires.
• Embry’s lightning visit exposes Malta’s failings and quickly leads to the arrival of Spitfires, but “astonishingly crap” leadership is blamed for the unnecessary delay and casualties.
• Notable Quote:

  “The more I meet of kind of sort of highfalutin, important people, the less impressive they all seem...”
  — James Holland [32:23]

• James and Al agree systemic mediocrity at the top is common—even in wartime—with tragic consequences.

10. Tangents & Wrap Up

• [35:44–36:37]
• A tongue-in-cheek mention of the Royal Navy (“perfect, nothing to say!”).
• Al and James reflect fondly on the homey feel of classic “covid era” podcasting.
• “We block the bad parts from our memory, but the good parts remain.” — Al Murray [36:28]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Bader’s Biography:

  “Yes, my pulverizing dynamism will daunt any civilized…”
  — Al Murray [05:41]

• On Wartime Leadership:

  “The more I meet of kind of sort of highfalutin, important people, the less impressive they all seem…”
  — James Holland [32:23]

• On Military Myths:

  “She said it's not true. I didn't pick the maroon beret, but I love the story and I hope people carry on telling it.”
  — Al Murray [19:23]

• On the Debacle in Malta:

  “Muncheberg is a… group in JG27. They have 43–0 in three weeks against Hurricanes. Jeepers, they don't lose a single… They don't lose a single man.”
  — James Holland [26:12]

• On Institutional Mediocrity:

  “Cream may rise to the top, but as it works its way through, an awful lot of milk…”
  — Al Murray [33:01]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment Description | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:04 | Show proper begins; reflections on We Have Ways Fest | | 02:38 | Douglas Bader & “Reach for the Sky” panned and celebrated | | 07:47 | Bader & Jimmy Doolittle: unlikely postwar besties | | 09:02 | Al’s Army Air Corps visit and Apache helicopter sim experience | | 14:54 | Mess dinner banter & regimental tradition | | 16:08 | James recounts “Lost German Girl” YouTube rabbit hole | | 17:29 | The myth of Major Denison and the maroon beret debunked | | 20:37 | Air Ministry & War Office airborne rivalry; reading from “Paras” | | 24:27 | Critique of RAF’s failure to defend Malta with Spitfires | | 32:23 | Discussion on mediocrity in high command; “cream & milk” metaphor | | 35:44 | Royal Navy banter, pandemic nostalgia, and show close |

Tone and Final Thoughts

This episode is a quintessential “We Have Ways” mix: deeply knowledgeable, irreverent, anecdotal, and passionate. Al and James blend personal stories, serious historical argument, and affectionate mockery of Britain’s many military myths and muddles. Listeners are left with memorable takes on leadership, the persistence of myth, and the eternal pleasures and frustrations of WWII history.

For those who missed it, this episode offers both a laugh-out-loud tour through the odder corners of WWII legend and a sobering indictment of the failures of command that shaped real outcomes on the battlefield.