Books, Balls, and Bismarck

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Books, Balls, and Bismarck"

Podcast: WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
Hosts: Al Murray, James Holland
Episode Date: February 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this "war waffle" episode, Al Murray and historian James Holland catch up on recent WWII research, share naval history anecdotes, discuss WWII songs and cultural memes, and take a lively, humorous sprint through "the Februarys" of the Second World War. This episode blends deep historical insight with the hosts’ trademark camaraderie and irreverence, offering both vivid storytelling and reflections on how WWII stories—both grand and granular—continue to fascinate.

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1. Naval Research & The Atlantic War

James Holland’s New Book Research

• Focus: The first stage of the Atlantic War, drawing on previous podcast episodes about the Hood and Bismarck.
• Key Sites: James lists archives he’s frequenting—Kew, Imperial War Museum, Greenwich, and possibly Chatham and Halifax (Canada).
• Telling Statistic:
  • “There isn’t a single HX convoy... from Halifax to Britain between June 1941 to September 1942—not a single ship is sunk in convoy.”
    (James Holland, 05:12)
• Interpretation: While histories focus on the devastating losses, most convoys actually arrived unscathed—an underappreciated fact (05:31–05:39).

The Power of Air Patrols

• Britain’s innovative use of air power over the Bay of Biscay forced U-boat captains to dive and diminished their operational effectiveness—even before technological breakthroughs like the cavity magnetron.
  • “Sometimes the sort of technical breakthroughs get lent into too much in the story. But actually... planes in the sky is enough to put the willies up the U-boat captains.”
    (Al Murray, 06:32)
• Strategic Impact: Even U-boats not sunk were severely limited; their operational window shrank, leading to greatly reduced shipping losses.

Family Stories & U-Boat Performance

• Example: U358—despite expert commanders, sank far less shipping than early war aces, underlining how Allied successes weren’t just about kills, but thwarting operations (08:50–09:24).

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2. Naval Archives: Anecdotes & Relics

• Naval Historical Branch Visit: James shares highlights from a recent visit:
  • Access to Bismarck survivor interrogations, technical reports, and even the German U-boat command’s (BdU) war diary.
    • “They’ve got the war diary of the BDU. They’ve got Dönitz’s war diary.”
      (James Holland, 11:24)
  • Relics galore: Nelson’s signature, battered Zeiss binoculars from a destroyed S-boat, and artefacts from the HMS Hood.
  • Plans for a Royal Navy trophy “roadshow” at We Have Ways Fest 6.

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3. The Hunt for Bismarck and Life at Sea

The Human Experience

• Al and James reflect on navy memoirs and how ferociously demanding North Sea operations were:
  • Vivid accounts from George Wally and Ludovic Kennedy convey the psychological and physical toll of fighting—and simply enduring—the cruel sea.
    • "Meals that would scarcely stay on the table long enough to be eaten." (Al Murray quoting George Wally, 16:04)
  • Weather as an adversary, not just the enemy.

Outreach & Storytelling: WWII for Kids

• Al recounts his “outreach” efforts, teaching year six pupils about the Bismarck sinking—using Lego Sink the Bismarck as a learning tool.
  • “One of the kids goes, 'I never knew Lego could be so intense, bruv.'”
    (Al Murray recalling student reaction, 19:12)
• Key Quote:
  • “Never dumb down to school kids. No.” (James Holland, 20:21)

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4. Songs, Culture, and Wartime Humor

"Hitler’s Only Got One Ball": Song as Wartime Meme

• Al deep-dives into the origins and variants of the infamous propaganda song.
  • Academic analyses highlight its value as a morale boost and vehicle for ridicule (31:10–32:31).
• Notable lyric variants include:
  • “Hitler has only got one ball, the other is in the Albert Hall...”
  • “Goebbels has no balls at all.”

Transmission

• The hosts muse on the pre-internet (and even pre-radio) virality of such songs among troops, their persistent presence in British schoolyard culture, and what that reveals about popular history.

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5. Books, Character Studies, and Ironies

Recent Reading

• Al’s focus: Eugene Esmond and the Air Force’s dual role—military and “empire-connectivity” pilot training (25:20–27:33).
• James’s focus:
  • Into That Darkness (Gitta Sereny) and how ordinary, sometimes even initially apolitical men (“forks in the road”) became complicit in atrocities at Sobibor (27:33–28:45).
• Both discuss how bureaucratic, cultural, and personal decisions compound to sweep people into the vortex of history.

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6. The "Februarys" of WWII: Year-By-Year Lightning Review

• A rapid-fire exploration of key (often overlooked) events each February of the war (35:28–42:55):
  • 1939: Hungary joins Anti-Comintern Pact—shifts in alliances, pre-war maneuverings (36:21).
  • 1940-41: Hitler’s grand speeches and naval priorities; Chamberlain's diplomatic entreaties; scarcity of U-Boats in the Atlantic.
  • 1942: Internment of Japanese Canadians/Americans (not Germans or Italians), raising thorny issues of racism and historical apologies (39:10).
  • 1943: Sinking of Royal Navy and German submarines; operational dangers for all navies.
  • 1944: Continued Allied anti-submarine successes; Pacific theatre advances.
  • 1945: HMS Duckworth sinks its fifth U-boat; Soviets gearing up for the Berlin offensive; operation Veritable, destruction of towns like Cleves, controversial bombings (42:16–42:55).

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7. Lively Tangents & Sign-Off

Notable Quotes & Banter

• On Early Education:
  • "Why was I doing Latin when I could have been learning about Bismarck?" (James Holland, 20:32)
• On German Navy Tradition:
  • “The German Imperial Navy, then is reborn as a Kriegsmarine. They very much saw themselves as like maintaining the imperial tradition. And if the Third Reich is one thing, it's an imperial venture.” (Al Murray, 34:48)
• On Potential Plot Twists:
  • “What if amongst those U-boats was the one with Hitler on, that was trying to get to South America, never got there, and he got blown up by an atomic test?" (Al Murray, 34:14)

Future Topics Teased

• Audie Murphy, Japan’s road to war, the Bruneval raid, and more Allied "visionaries."

Outro

• Upbeat “cheerio” as the hosts promise more detailed series and We Have Ways Fest content, maintaining their signature mix of history, humor, and warmth.

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Episode Timeline (Key Timestamps)

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |---------------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 02:03 | Show proper begins, naval focus | | 05:12 | Convoy stats: Halifax–Britain, not a ship sunk | | 06:32 | Air patrols and U-boat countermeasures | | 09:47 | Impact of air and family history contributions | | 11:24 | Naval archive treasures: Bismarck, trophies | | 15:07 | George Wally, Kennedy & life at sea | | 17:50 | Teaching kids with Lego Sink the Bismarck | | 19:12 | Hilarious student reaction | | 27:33 | Recent book readings: Into That Darkness | | 28:45 | Cultural analysis: "Hitler's Only Got One Ball" | | 35:28 | "Februarys" of WWII year-by-year flash review | | 42:16 | Closing thoughts, future episode teasers | | 43:55 | Membership pitch and sign off |

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Memorable Moments

• Al’s account of classroom engagement with WWII:
  “One of the kids goes, 'I never knew Lego could be so intense, bruv.'” (19:12)
• Philosophical aside on education:
  “Never dumbed down to school kids. No.” (20:21)
• Song analysis: “This song’s itemized taxonomy of malformed German genitalia—the monorchid, the micro orchid, the anorchid—was particularly forceful…” (Al Murray, 31:10)
• Alternate history plot twist: “What if...Hitler...got blown up by an atomic test?” (Al Murray, 34:14)

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Tone & Style

Witty, discursive, and unafraid of tangents, the show remains deeply rooted in rigorous historical inquiry. The interplay between Al’s comedic instincts and James’s historian's precision keeps the episode accessible, informative, and often laugh-out-loud funny, even while handling dark or complex subject matter.

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For Next Time

• Expect deep dives into Pacific and European theatres, stories from both grand strategy and the personal, and continued behind-the-scenes access to archives and cultural legacies of World War II.

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Transcript

[Al Murray]

Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com we haveways.

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[Al Murray]

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[Al Murray]

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[James Holland]

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[Al Murray]

Actor act soon. Welcome to we have Ways of Making Talk with Me, Al Murray and James Holland, the Second World War podcast of choice for those people with taste and sophistication and an interest in the greatest story ever told. That's basically the way to tee the show up, isn't it, Jim?

[James Holland]

Yeah. You don't need to say anything else.

[Al Murray]

Exactly.

[James Holland]

That is the perfect intro. I have nothing to add. We cover everything. We even cover naval matters these days.

[Al Murray]

I know, I know. We've gone Navy crazy and today we're having a basically a war waffle chat. A kind of a catch up talking about some things that have grabbed our attention. What we're up to. We've got a timeline for February, February 24th across the war. You've now embarked. Let's start there. You've just embarked, Jim, haven't you, on your next round of research, as you're preparing to write about the first stage of the Atlantic War? Is that right? Or the second stage? Just the first, yeah.

[James Holland]

Basically all the stuff we've just covered in the podcast from September 1939 on the Atlantic War series, then the eight episodes we've done on the Hood and the Bismarck collectively, that's what I'm covering. The only bit we haven't covered, and maybe we should do a two part special is the capture of U110 or U110 because, you know, I don't think we can have enough Navy. And U1110, of course, is Ulyss Lemp, who sank the Athena on day one in U30. But he's been promoted and he's got a bigger. He's got a bigger U boat by this point, and that's the one with the Enigma machine captured. And it's quite the epic story, I can tell you.

[Al Murray]

Well, I was going to ask actually tangentially to that, you know, naval. Naval intelligence is one of the main players. It's Bletchley's most important client for a long stretch of the war, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Well, there you go. This is the game changer, really. And the other thing is one of. One of the destroyers involved in that action was commanded by a chap called Captain Funj. Smith.

[Al Murray]

Come off here.

[James Holland]

It's really funny. What's really funny? I've got his account of the capture of U110 and in all his signatures it's just Captain Smith. F U N G E Funge. Fung.

[Al Murray]

Fungi, fungi, fungi. Imagine the ribbing, the ribbing he received at Dartmouth. God blimey.

[James Holland]

He decided to just go for plain old Smith.

[Al Murray]

Old Smith, rather.

[James Holland]

For the rest of his life.

[Al Murray]

That must be. But that must be some previous relative thinking, well, I'm not called Smith.

[James Holland]

We're.

[Al Murray]

We're better than just plain Smiths. We're fun.

[James Holland]

We're Sponge Smith. Chalky Fun Smith.

[Al Murray]

So, I mean, question to ask, where are you going for this research then? So you're going to Greenwich or are you going to Portsmouth to the Historical branch? You're going to scap a flow.

[James Holland]

Oh, boy. I'm going all over. I'm going all over.

[Al Murray]

So where is it all?

[James Holland]

Kew Imperial War Museum? Yeah, Greenwich. Haven't been to Chatham yet, but probably will. Steve Prince and I were talking about going to Halifax. Big Museums there. And although the Canadians weren't really kind of hundred percent in here at this point, you know, it was quite a, you know, it's still a major, major port. One thing I noticed yesterday, this is absolutely amazing, there isn't a single HX convoy, which is one coming from Halifax to Britain between June 1941 to September 1942. Not a single ship is sunk in convoy. Wow.

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Wow.

[James Holland]

I kid you not.

[Al Murray]

That's quite something, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Not one. So, you know, this whole thing about kind of, you know, over 80% of convoys came through unscathed. They fricking did.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

There's the proof. It just underlines, doesn't it, that in the narrative all we do is focus on the terrible ones, you know, the ones that are kind of, you know, three day battles in which sort of 14 go to the bottom and all the rest of it. But that's not normal.

[Al Murray]

Did you read that piece by John Buckley about air power in the Atlantic War?

[James Holland]

No, I haven't yet, but I really want to.

[Al Murray]

It's so interesting. He looks at the operational research, right, because they get like across the board in the British services. They get the operational research, gets going after a couple of years where they start looking actually, you know, they set up an operational research unit, they start looking actually how they're doing stuff and trying to sort of crunch the numbers. And there's the whole thing about the, you know, the Bay of Biscay air patrols that the British run to suppress the U boats. And they're doing this before they've got the cavity magnetron, before they're able to strike at those U boats. But what it actually does is forces the U boats under. So by the time the U boats get further out to sea, they haven't got as long legs, they aren't able to engage as easily. And he points out that simply aeroplanes in the sky is enough to put the willies up the U boat captains. And so they have to resort to countermeasures that are costly to them. The point John makes is how are you going to weigh this? A sunk U boat is obviously top of the shop, that's what you want. But a U boat that's hindered, that's restricted, that's held up, that can't do what it's supposed to achieve. That's great, you know, that's pretty good. And he talks about the air contribution is much more successful earlier than is generally like perceived because, because, because of this patrolling the Bear Biscay and there's you know, there's some criticism that says, well, why are they only pat? But that's all they can do with the aircraft. They've got the range to go anywhere else. So they're making the best use of the equipment they've got at the time. They've got the equipment and it is making life much more difficult for the U boat crews, which is leading to them having, you know, the tap turned off, or at least they're being throttled back by aggressive air action. All it takes is for them to see a plane, for them to dive, and then that basically ruins their morning.

[James Holland]

Well, yes, because of course, they're just going so much slower when they're under the water. I mean, they're going, you know, third quarter of a speed and too slow to catch convoy.

[Al Murray]

And burning more fuel. And burning more fuel and not charging the batteries.

[James Holland]

They're burning their batteries, aren't they? That's the point.

[Al Murray]

Well, so they then need recharging, which is going to cost them more fuel. And he makes this really interesting point. He says sometimes the sort of technical breakthroughs get lent into too much in the story. But actually, when you look at what Coastal Command are achieving with what they've got, because they haven't been prioritized either. It's really, really interesting because in the First World War, Ayre had been instructive in dealing with the U boat threat. They'd actually been able to use it effectively. And that kind of get. That fell out of people's perception the start of the war. The Navy thinks they could do it without. Without that. It's just so interesting. And again, you've got to look at where are the gains? It's not just sunk U boats. Where are the gains? So, for instance, we've just done some family stories, just recordings of family stories, and one of them was about, from a lister called meredith was about u358. If you look u358 up on the U boat.

[James Holland]

U boat.

[Al Murray]

U boat net, whatever it's called. How many tons of shipping did you. 358 sink across the war, Jim?

[James Holland]

Don't know. I mean, if 358, that means it's later one. So it's only going to be coming in in 1942, 43.

[Al Murray]

Well, it's 19,000, 20,000 tons of ships shipping.

[James Holland]

Okay, that's not very much.

[Al Murray]

There's peanuts. That's nothing like enough, is it? No.

[James Holland]

When you're thinking sort of Schepka and Kretschmer and Preen and company. They're all, you know, they're 170,000, 200,000, that kind of stuff.

[Al Murray]

And her top ace captain is Otto schuhardt, who commanded U8, U25, U29.

[James Holland]

Okay, so he's an old boy.

[Al Murray]

So he's an old boy. He's responsible for sinking something like 90,000 tons of shipping. Nothing like enough. 12 ships, one warship. Nothing like enough. That's because they're being, they're being throttled, they're being held back, they're being held up. And if you go to, you know, as you say, this Halifax, this period, I mean, there's a happy time in reverse, isn't there? That's a convoy happy time.

[James Holland]

Yes. Well, it's interesting yesterday because I was at the Naval Historical Branch, which is where I saw Steve Prince, great friend of the show. Of course, the Naval Historical Branch is brilliant because they've got, you know, they've got Aidan Butler, who spoke at the. We have Wastefest in the past and I think he's coming back again this year. Oh, yes, yes. He is doing sea over sand. He's doing swordfish operations over the desert.

[Al Murray]

Oh, come on.

[James Holland]

Thought you'd be happy about that.

[Al Murray]

Charles Vlam writes a lot about that.

[James Holland]

Yeah, he did. I might have to also include albacores. And I said, that's fine. As long as the swordfish, I'll be happy.

[Al Murray]

I mean, fairy aircraft in General Fulmar's albacores, swordfish, we're good with it.

[James Holland]

Okay, you're fine with all of that?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

Okay, so that's good. So I thought that'd be okay. Anyway, so I reassured him on that front. Then also Kate Brett, who is a kind of German speaking Yubo expert, she wants to talk about coastal, German coastal defenses. Bring it on.

[Al Murray]

Why not?

[James Holland]

Anyway, so I was there yesterday and they've, they've got some amazing stuff. So they've got, they, they after, if they ever capture any U boat crew, they interrogated them and they then do these reports. So you don't get verbatim interrogations. But what you do get is precis and a whole loads of technical information on the, on, on the various U boats and also details about morale and what they're up to and what they were doing in the mission while they're doing previous raids, all that kind of stuff. It's all fascinating right down to the kind of what type of cigarette they're smoking. And as you can imagine, it's all pretty juicy stuff. And then you get to, you know, Interrogation of prisoners from the sinking of the Bismarck. And you think, wow. And guess what else they've got. Yeah, really, really good. I'm just absolutely amazing. But guess what else they've got. They've got the war diary of the bdu. They've got donuts. War diary.

[Al Murray]

Really?

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

So absolutely every day.

[James Holland]

Every day.

[Al Murray]

Goodness me.

[James Holland]

And they've also got after action reports of people who have claimed to have hit U boats. And then there's the sort of western approaches and intelligence sections kind of deciding whether it did get sunk or not. You know, it's really funny. It's like, nah, this one got away. It's really obvious, really. That's amazing. But regardless of that, that you've got quite detailed accounts of the attacks and how they go about doing the attacks and all the rest of it. So it's really, really, really incredibly interesting. And then Steve gave us all a tour of the Royal Navy's trophy cabinet, which is a sort of storeroom in the historic dog cars. And you've never, I mean you've never seen more silver in your life. And there on a shelf is a letter from, from Nelson, signed also by Lady Hamilton for example, going please make sure you give her £100 every month from now on. It's just, it's just absolutely incredible. And they had, they had the relics of, of. Of. I think is it is S111, something like that or 311, I can't remember which. Which S boot it was. They had the guys Zeiss binoculars which were absolutely butchered with shrapnel marks.

[Al Murray]

Wow.

[James Holland]

You know, they killed 11 of the crew in the attack. Still had its ensign and all this kind of stuff. Steve's thinking about doing a second World War Royal Navy trophy store roadshow which he's going to bring to. We have Wastefest 6.

[Al Murray]

Oh wow.

[James Holland]

That would be cool, wouldn't it?

[Al Murray]

That'd be super cool.

[James Holland]

Which is a gun barrel cover which washed up a year later in Norway.

[Al Murray]

What they call a condom.

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Wow.

[Al Murray]

Amazing.

[James Holland]

Absolutely amazing. Because the guy said, well this is here we've got frame. We just had it recently framed. This is the ensign from HMS Panel Penelope, better known as. I went pepper pot. And he went yeah, absolutely right. And he said we got loads of stuff here, you know, got relative hood. I said what do you mean you got relic of the hood? I didn't see that. It was amazing. Anyway, so, so yeah, very fruitful day yesterday. But, but we did. Steve and I did think that probably unfortunately we'd have to go to Halifax. But obviously coming up I've got Narvik and, and Scapa Flow. So it's good to hear that there's a museum that we heard from family stories that's worth seeing.

[Al Murray]

Have you started to cast it yet?

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, just, just, just starting that, just starting that. Don't worry. There's some amazing people probably good of which Peter Gretton, he. Of being thrown overboard and back again will definitely be a star.

[Al Murray]

That account of George Wally's that you sent me that we quoted in the Bismarck series.

[James Holland]

Yeah. How good is that?

[Al Murray]

It's really, really good, isn't it? I, I do. It is interesting because he, he, he says in it, he says, you know, we're not supposed to write about this but every now and again there's an event where it seems silly not to put down how you feel about it because everyone knows about it, it's public knowledge, so you might as well.

[James Holland]

Yeah, can't argue with that.

[Al Murray]

And then he goes to write this extraordinary sort of florid, florid, beautifully written account of chasing the Bismarck down and the feeling of the feeling, you know, because he is doing night watches or he's in the WT room and he's. So he lives in the sort of extraordinary twilight world of night and at the signals desk and all that sort of stuff and in absolutely punishing c. It is interesting, isn't it, that the whole action takes place in diabolical weather. You know, we talk about the weather getting a vote in land actions, right, or air actions, but on the sea it's like a, it's of a different order, isn't it? Because you can have a thunderstorm but the earth doesn't move, does it? You might get, you might get flooded on land but you're, you're not thrown about by gigantic rollers and, and having to stay upright in the colossal surf. I mean the idea of all those, you know, he paints a picture of like the physicality of being on a ship. It's incredibly hard work, isn't it?

[James Holland]

I think so. And I think what I'm doing. I've been thinking about this a lot. You know, when are you doing the book? You really got to get your, your prose hat on and summon all your descriptive juices and really give it two barrels worth for the weather. Because there's a reason why it's referred to as a cruel sea. I mean, I mean it's, it's just brutal. Absolutely brutal. Particularly on a destroyer or even worse, a corvette. I mean, you know, it's a total tint up being tossed about all over the place. Do you remember those. That line from vine where he just goes, you know, several people were washed overboard but we couldn't stop. It's very much sort of. This is part and parcel anyway. So it's all really good and I'm having. I'm having fun thinking about it all and plotting it and just starting to piece it all together. I'm definitely going to do a thing on Mirza Kabir because, you know, Mercel Kabir, you know, had the fleet of French fleet, that would have changed everything for the battle. Well, not change everything. We would have had a big impact on the Battle of the Atlantic, I think. I think the British were absolutely right to shut down the French fleet. I mean, really were.

[Al Murray]

They had no choice, I think is the truth of it.

[James Holland]

No, no choice. No choice at all.

[Al Murray]

Because you can't control, you can't engage in the Mediterranean if the French fleet is, you know, and if you're drawing on your imperial resources, you need to be able to control the Mediterranean. Everything knocks on from everything George Wally says. I mean, stuff he says about the physicality of being at sea is really something, you know, he says, I've lost track of the days, it seems in looking back that were like one long twilight day punctuated by meals that would scarcely stay on the table long enough to be eaten. What it's like being keyed up all that time is extraordinary.

[James Holland]

And of course, he's serving one of his fellow officers is Ludovic Kennedy.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. And it's interesting actually how Kennedy's prose is sort of the next level up in terms of sort of vivid prose style. But Wally's quite capable of batting that kind of average as well.

[James Holland]

You know, people were taught how to write in those days.

[Al Murray]

Well, it did. It did make me think of a literate age on the subject of sinking to Bismarck, though. I had to speak to year six at Daisy's primary school yesterday to talk about the Second World War.

[James Holland]

Fantastic.

[Al Murray]

So you know, what's the Second World War, everyone? Oh, it's a big war, like a long time ago. Right, okay, great. Any idea when it was from?

[James Holland]

1930, something black and white?

[Al Murray]

Well, not quite 1930. Something to 8 May 1945. One of the kids said, oh, that's quite good.

[James Holland]

Was that Daisy?

[Al Murray]

No, no, no, no. Year six. She's not year six. It's the older kids. Anyway, I did this last year and so we handed round bits of twisted parts of a hurricane that I've Got. And then my para helmet. And then we watched London Can Take it, which for a thing for kids to watch is like, yes, brilliant. Because, you know, there's enough. There's enough of the city in it that's still the same, you know, St. Paul's and then I thought, but we've got to do something to entertain them. We watched Lego sink the Bismarck.

[James Holland]

Yeah, brilliant.

[Al Murray]

Which I'm sure many of our regular listeners will have had a look at. I thoroughly recommend it. If you've not seen Lego sink the Bismarck yet.

[James Holland]

I haven't, but I want to.

[Al Murray]

Oh, God, it's so good. It's a condensed, Condensed. It's the Swordfish attack. So kud's attack. So the second one where they. Where they strike the rudder and then it's, you know, lots of Lego men going, bismarck can no longer maneuver. We will fight to the last shell.

[James Holland]

Fantastic.

[Al Murray]

Then, you know, kg, kg 5, the Prince of Wales appear on the horizon and sink the Bismarck. And at the end she turns over the. The Bismarck and you've got little Lego men swimming away in the foreground, which is. But we watched that and the kids were completely invested in it. So when the, you know, the first torpedo for the swordfish goes in and it misses, the whole class went, oh, like that. When it went past this guy's bows. Yeah, yeah. Then the second one goes underneath it like that. Right.

[James Holland]

Oh, brilliant.

[Al Murray]

And then the third one hits the rudder and the screws and there's this great big cheer from the. Yeah, from the class. Right.

[James Holland]

No, that's amazing.

[Al Murray]

It was brilliant.

[James Holland]

Well, it sounds to me like you're doing very valuable and important work here.

[Al Murray]

This is essential outreach, Jim. Essential outreach.

[James Holland]

Essential outreach. Getting them. Getting them young. Small seeds.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. And then one of the kids, one of the kids goes, oh, I never knew Lego could so be so intense, bruv.

[James Holland]

In years. Ex. That's just super, like, jackpot. Wow.

[Al Murray]

I've done it.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, well done. That's fantastic. That's really good. I'm proud.

[Al Murray]

But that's really funny. Really funny. After I said, so, any. Any questions? And I'd said, you know, the Bismarck's the biggest battleship and the. The British have got to sink it. They absolutely have to, to protect their own shipping, you know, like, laid it all out for them. I didn't say, by the way, that Swordfish is not obsolescent in this set of circumstances anyway. But the point, the point is. Any questions? One of the boys puts his hand up like, yes. And he goes, I've done. Age 14. Lego, actually.

[James Holland]

That was his. All right.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. That's great. Well done.

[James Holland]

What did you say to that?

[Al Murray]

I said, well, that's that. Well done.

[James Holland]

Can I suggest that you move on to tamiya? And what you'll need is a spray gun. And then one of the kids.

[Al Murray]

Then one of the kids goes. That kind of shooting with those big guns, that must have been extremely difficult. How did they do that?

[James Holland]

Tell you what. Never dumbed down to kids. Never dumbed down to school kids. No.

[Al Murray]

Then you're onto plunging fire. You're onto a sighting.

[James Holland]

Computer zones of invulnerability.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. It's absolutely amazing. Wow.

[James Holland]

God, I'd have died to have known all that stuff when I was that age. Why was I doing Latin when I could have been learning about Bismarck?

[Al Murray]

Why you were doing Latin or why I was doing Latin was never sufficiently explained to me at the time and has never been sufficiently explained since.

[James Holland]

Explain since.

[Al Murray]

There never was a reason, was there?

[James Holland]

No. Caesar had some jam for tea.

[Al Murray]

Pompey had a rat. Exactly, yeah. Gerunds and gerundives. No, thanks. Not interested.

[James Holland]

I don't want to know that. I want to know about Bismarck.

[Al Murray]

Exactly.

[James Holland]

Plunging fire.

[Al Murray]

Plunging fire.

[James Holland]

My career could have been so different.

[Al Murray]

Well, you'd have got started a little earlier, basically.

[James Holland]

That's my point. I'd have had early background knowledge rather than having to start from scratch. Age 30.

[Al Murray]

You've made up a lost time, Jim. Don't panic.

[James Holland]

Quite resentful sitting here now.

[Al Murray]

Should we take a break and then look at what was going on in the Februarys of the second world war? Should we do that? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

Yeah, let's do that.

[Al Murray]

We'll be back in a second.

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[Al Murray]

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[Al Murray]

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[Al Murray]

1,800contacts.

[Dominic Sambrook]

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Book Club, a new podcast from Goal Hanger, hosted by me, Dominic Sambrook, and me, Tabitha Syed.

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As some of you may know, I have been Dominic's producer on the Rest Is History, and we even did a miniseries last year about all things books.

[Dominic Sambrook]

And since we enjoyed that so much, we have decided to roll it out as its own show. So it'll be coming out every Tuesday. We'll be doing a different book each time and digging into all the stories behind them.

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And we are going to be talking about the historical contexts behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time. We're going to be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unraveling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story.

[Dominic Sambrook]

Now, you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we hope that by the end of each episode you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them. That is the key thing. And either way, whether you read them or not, we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating, fascinating facts. You'll be lots of great stories and maybe Tabby the odd laugh.

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We will be looking at thrilling gothic bodice rippers like Wuthering Heights and Frankenstein, as well as iconic stories like the Great Gatsby or Little Women, and then also some more modern stuff. So Game of Thrones, Normal People, the Hunger Games, Hamnet, all manner of exciting stories.

[Dominic Sambrook]

So please join us on our journey into all things books. Wherever you get your podcasts, just search for the book club every Tuesday and hopefully we will see you there.

[Al Murray]

Welcome back to we have Ways of aq Talk with Me. I'm Murray and James Holland for a warm waffle episode strewn with regret. That last part that James didn't have someone come into primary school to explain plunging fire to him.

[James Holland]

I am regretful. Like, where were you when I was in Year six? Well, I suppose that was called the. That was called like the fourth form or something.

[Al Murray]

When I was at school, I was in the remove. I think when you were in Year six, I was in the. Or the lower six.

[James Holland]

I'm not sure in the remove. What is the remove?

[Al Murray]

I never really understood that. Just like the Latin. That was never explained to me sufficiently at the time. It's never been explained since.

[James Holland]

The other thing is. The other thing is really funny is at our school you could be rusticated, which meant you were sent home, but to be rusticated actually means Going into the country, which I think is really funny. The assumption that anyone who is at a minor public school in the south coast of England wouldn't return to somewhere urban, would return to their country seat. So just before we get on to what happened in February. February during the war. Third week of February in the war. You've been reading some interesting stuff recently, haven't you?

[Al Murray]

I've been reading all sorts of stuff. I've been. I mean, I've been channel dashing, mainly. That's the thing I've been looking at. And Eugene Esmond and his career. What's quite interesting about that is that one of the RAF's jobs, as well as providing an air force, seems to be to produce a surplus of pilots in order to connect the empire together. You know the way. Now, if you join the Royal Air Force and you fly the Airbus at the end of it, you're kind of almost ready to go as a. As an airline pilot. It feels a bit like that because that's what happens to Esmond. It doesn't get a commission, permanent commission, so ends up, you know, massing. I mean, what is five thousand 550 hours in his logbook before the war starts?

[James Holland]

Yeah, it's just nuts, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

It's completely insane. And that's eight or nine years after he leaves the raf, gets a job with Imperial straight away. And there's a great account of a guy who flew with him, who'd come from British Airways, who sort of says that the lads at Imperial, they're all like seat of the pants flyers because they're all so madly experienced. And the first time he flies with Esmond, it basically scares him witness, because Esmond's just like completely confident with the Aircra aircraft, you know, like totally knows every possible permutation of what the plane will do. And there's all sorts of stories about him flying. Flying in disgusting weather off Burma, you know, getting caught in a thermal, having to bring it down, flying at sea level, all this sort of stuff. So flying that's as hardcore and as adventurous as anything you'd ever do in the services, but. But in these float planes and then in all sorts of different aircraft and he's sort of. He's basically a sort of. By the. By the end of his civilian air career, he's basically a float plane expert. It's just a genius, a genius pilot. You see that quite clearly. That's one of the sort of secretions from the Royal Air Force. While it may be taking care of the Sort of people like Barda because, you know, it takes them a while to fire Barda. After all, let Barda go. Or him to let himself go. But basically they're producing pilots as well. And so you, again, come away from just, you know, the defense aspect of what the Air Force is for. Plug it into an imperial quotient. You know, there's a virtuous circle there, isn't there? Of you're producing pilots for the empire because the empire's as important as anything else in British strategic thinking. I was really, really, really struck by that.

[James Holland]

I've been reading up about Philippines, and I've been reading. I'll tell you what else I've been reading, which is absolutely brilliant. I read it years and years and years ago and haven't looked at it since, is into that Darkness by Gitta Sareni. Oh, God, what a book. Have you ever read it?

[Al Murray]

No, but I read her Speer book. It's absolutely incredible.

[James Holland]

Okay, well, the Fran Stangle one, Into that Darkness is really short. It's not a big book at all, and it's just amazing. So he was the guy who ended up as commandant of Sobibor, the death camp.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And it's forks in the road. It's forks in the road, Forks in the road. It doesn't start off a bad guy at all, you know, and every time there's just this. Just this comes to this fork in the road, and he takes one decision rather than the other decision, and it sends his life down a completely different, you know, before you know where you are, he's running the T4 euthanasia program, and then he's commandant of Sobibor. It's just amazing. And he wasn't even really a Nazi. I mean, you know, it's sort of. He does this, then this happens, and because of that happens, that makes him then do the next thing, which then makes him.

[Al Murray]

But.

[James Holland]

And he's. And he's constantly feeling compromised, and he doesn't know what to do. And he. And he. And he then wrestles and thinks it's okay because such and such is treating it like it's okay. And, you know, I've got to look after my wife and my kids, and I've got to think about my career. And, you know, oh, my God.

[Al Murray]

It's just.

[James Holland]

It's just the descent. It's just incredible.

[Al Murray]

Anyway, one of the things I was looking into was. And I read a very, very funny paper about this, about Hitler, the Hitler's Only Got One Ball song, because, you know, last Year, just before Christmas. There's a thing about where they.

[James Holland]

Oh, yeah, yeah. They came out, that he might have had only one ball.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. And where that song comes from, how it emerged, there's someone who claims his father wrote it, that he was working for the government in propaganda and that he'd written it. Right. But that's probably not true.

[James Holland]

Might be, might not be, might be, might not be.

[Al Murray]

Right, but very hard to tell. But what's so interesting is there was an earlier parody. There was an earlier parody from the First World War that goes. That's all the band could play. They played it every day. Tarara, tarara, like that. So it's in the sort of military mind.

[James Holland]

The tune is there.

[Al Murray]

The tune is there, right? And then it changes to bollocks. And the same to you. Bollocks. They make a damned good stew. Bollocks mixed up with scallops and a nice tasty asshole or two, right? And sometimes instead of bollocks mixed up with scallops, it's knackers go well with crackers. Right? These are the versions that are bubbling under before the Second World War, right? And then by 1939, Hitler has only got one ball going as two very small. Himmler is rather similar, but poor Goebbels has nobles at all. That's. By the time the war starts, that song has got its boots on. Right, but this paper. So can I read you some of this academics?

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, please do.

[Al Murray]

A means of ridiculing the Nazis. Hillo's Only Got One Ball became immensely popular among both British and American troops, who, in transmitting this song, were exercising something of a wartime convention by demeaning the sexual faculties of enemy leaders. But the mockery extended further. Since the 1920s, the words balls or ballsy had come to denote notions of courage, nerve and fortitude. In that sense, defective testicles rendered the Nazis defective soldiers. This song's itemized taxonomy of malformed German genitalia, the monorchid, the micro orchid, the anorchid, was particularly forceful and satisfying to Allied soldiers in that it scattered satiric buckshot across the whole Nazi high command. Hitler, Hermann Goering, Commander in Chief of the Luftwaffe, Heinrich Himmler, Reichsphere of the SS Goebbels, Reichs Minister of Propaganda. I mean, imagine sitting down to explain that.

[James Holland]

Yes, I mean, put that in suede's corner.

[Al Murray]

There's a play called Dear Dr. Goebbels from 2001, which is a story about. That goes with the song, that supposedly the song tells you what happened then There's, I mean, some really interesting stuff about how, you know, culture studies people have argued about, you know, jokes belong to the black market. Popular humor operates independently of any strategy that the official controllers of wartime propaganda would like to impose on it. I think that's definitely true, but. Did you know. Do you know the other verses?

[James Holland]

I can't remember.

[Al Murray]

Rommel has four or five. I guess no one's quite sure about Rudolph Hess. Schmeling is always yelling, but Poirot, Goebbels has no balls at all.

[James Holland]

Goebbels gets it, doesn't he?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, Goebbels gets it every time.

[James Holland]

Is there another verse?

[Al Murray]

Well, no, there's a longer British version. Hitler has only got one ball. The other is in the Albert Hall. His mother, the dirty bugger, chopped it off when Hitler was small. She threw it into the apple tree. The wind blew it into the deep sea where the fishes got out out their dishes and ate scallops and bollocks for tea. And sometimes instead of Albert hall in Manchester, it's Free Trade Hall, Leeds Town hall in Glasgow. The variant is Kelvin Hall, Northern Ireland, the Ulster Hall. And that this, this guy says, you know, it's the civic participation involved in immortalizing Hitler that. That's what that's telling us, rather than just famous places. People have got that rhyme with ball.

[James Holland]

That's absolutely amazing. I had no idea, but I remember seeing it a lot when I was kids. It seems to. It seems to have moved away from. From popular common knowledge these days.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And there was a Mitchell and Webb sketch about it, I think. Or Armstrong and Miller sketch. I can't remember one of the. One or the other. Armstrong and Miller did a sketch about. They're decoding something and it comes through

[James Holland]

that, you know, really, really funny.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[James Holland]

Maybe we should do the whole. All verses, all verses that we have Waze Fest with a little bit of a twist.

[Al Murray]

I think we could. We could, we could add to them.

[James Holland]

We could do at the end of the show. Can't we bring everyone in for the grand finale?

[Al Murray]

Grand finale of Hitler's Only Got One Ball. I think there's a lot to be said for that. But I think what's. What is really interesting, though, is that those songs can transmit themselves in an age really pre. You know, you're not. That's not on the telly, it's not on the radio, it's not being put on Tick Tock, it's not on Instagram, it's not how that's transmitting itself across the whole Army. You're pretty certain that everyone in the army would have sung or heard that at some point. And the Air Force and the Navy at some point it would have. The way these things would spread, I think is really, really interesting.

[James Holland]

Well, I, I' you remember it. I mean, it was, it was 100% a part of the vernacular when I was a nipper.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, of course it was.

[James Holland]

Everyone knew that.

[Al Murray]

It's a little surprising when people don't. Anyway, there's a rabbit hole. Hitler's only got one bull rabbit hole.

[James Holland]

It's a gray rabbit hole.

[Al Murray]

It's a tremendous rabbit hole.

[James Holland]

Yeah, I've enjoyed that.

[Al Murray]

And of course that they did that test that proved he might have some sort of, some sort of problem, didn't they?

[James Holland]

Some reduced testicle.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. From the blood taken from the sofa where he blew his brains out. Thank you very much. I mean, what was quite interesting is when that story came out, it didn't result in a load of pushback from people going, well, he didn't kill himself, but, you know, they used his blood for that test.

[James Holland]

He went, south America. Maybe everyone's just got bored of that story, the whole South America rubbish.

[Al Murray]

But when we were talking to Matt Tressida, right, the other day about swimming on the wreck of the Prinz Eugen in the nuclear testing area at Bikini Atoll, this thought crossed my mind, you know, because they build that fleet and it's all U boats. What if. Here's a plot twist for you. What if amongst those U boats was the one with Hitler on that was trying to get to South America, never got there and he got blown up

[James Holland]

by an atomic test. He got nuked. That's a, that's a great thought, isn't it? After all that.

[Al Murray]

After all that.

[James Holland]

And as he was thinking, he just went, oh, scheisse him and Lutchens.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, he wasn't a Nazi either, Jim. I mean, it is interesting. The German Imperial Navy, the Kriegs before you know that, then, is reborn as a Kriegsmariner. They very much saw themselves as like, like maintaining the imperial tradition. And if the Third Reich is one thing, it's an imperial venture. It's a Reich, it's an empire. Right. So the idea that you could be an old school imperialist, but the new one wasn't quite your taste. That's quite a bendy concept, isn't it?

[James Holland]

It's a ridiculous way. It's a ridiculous concept. It's so nuts. I mean, the whole thing is so nuts. It's so mad. But then, you know look around the world at the moment. Don't want to get maudlin about it, but you know, cheapers.

[Al Murray]

Should we look at the Februarys of the war?

[James Holland]

Well, should we rattle for it? Because we were, we were supposed to do that in the first 10 minutes and here we are 40 minutes in with testicular rabbit holes and we haven't quite got around to it.

[Al Murray]

Right, okay. So we can include 1939. In 1939. February. So not quite the second world. Well, of course that depends on your point of view. Of course. Because you know, if you are in the Sudetenland, the war has started, right? Because you've been invaded, you've been gobbled up already by Nazi expansionism, by this Reich that isn't like the old Reich. So Hungary joins the anti Comintern pact which is initially signed by Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany back in 1936. Yeah, 36. So Spain and Hungary signed the agreement against the Communist International in 1939. And the puppet government the Japanese got in China signs later in the war. So I mean there's a pretty firm signal of intent for the Hungarians, isn't it that they don't like the Soviets, but also that they are going to align with the Germans.

[James Holland]

Don't like commies, just don't like commies.

[Al Murray]

If you're a British Communist, how must the Nazi Soviet Pact, how did you deal with that?

[James Holland]

Psychologically crushing, absolutely crushing.

[Al Murray]

The blow that must have constituted. Because, you know, you're paid up, aren't you? You're in as an anti fascist. And lots of people are communist because they're anti fascist, aren't they? Because it's one or the other.

[James Holland]

But you have to, you have, one has to think of all these countries, you know, Hungary and all the rest of it. All these countries that have just been for centuries, they've, they've been ruled by the Habsburgs and Empire and imperialism and militarism. Suddenly in 1919, all that's gone. And now just to make matters worse, everything you thought you knew and everything you thought was solid and secure and kind of, you know, part of the ancien regime is given a further threat by the advent of lots of Bolsheviks, which is, you know, the last thing you want. So I think you can understand, you know, why there is this split and why it feels so shocking to the

[Al Murray]

traditional ruling class when the Nazis embark on Barbarossa and they frame it as a crusade against Bolshevism and their European allies join in. A lot of them are paid up in that regard.

[James Holland]

They Believe it.

[Al Murray]

And the Finns certainly are and have reason to be. That's the thing. So the next February, Hitler celebrates the 20th anniversary of the Nazi Party of Munich with a speech calling, of course, for the inevitable victory of Germany in the Second World War. Although it's quite a different war in February 1940 to the one he ends up getting.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And also he's not interested in what's going on at sea, is he? He's not interested in that.

[Al Murray]

No, he's not worked that out. Neville Chamberlain upholds the independence of Poland by doing nothing, of course, and calls upon Nazi Germany to reject might is right.

[James Holland]

Well, that's going to count for a lot. You can see that Hitler's likely to be swayed by that. 1941. Then suddenly everything is kicking off and it's now the 21st anniversary of the founding of the Nazi Party. And Hitler, now his tension is turned to the U by war and he announces that it's going to intensify against the Allies in the coming months. Well, that says maybe, but not with. Not with 8U boats it isn't. Or however many he's got in February, I think there's only eight in the Atlantic in February 1941.

[Al Murray]

Is this when he sent a load to the Med as well? So it's not good if you're doing it, is it? Running. Trying to run that thing from a tiny headquarters, you know, with a small staff and all that. It's not being taken seriously at all, is it? It HMS Dainty. Look, you write to your mum and dad, you say, I'm on HMS Dainty and your mum and dad are. Oh, no, you want to be posted to Invincible, not Dainty.

[James Holland]

What's happened to Ted?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. He's on. He's on Dainty.

[James Holland]

It's not what we. We. We'd hoped for our boy. We'd wanted him on the Ramillies.

[Al Murray]

She sunk by a ju88. I think it's quite interesting, isn't it? Because one of the things that emerges about air power in, in naval warfare is that it's difficult to hit ships with bombs, isn't it? It's hard, but when you do it, it's really effective, isn't it? It's the thing.

[James Holland]

It's worth an awful lot of effort, but if you can do it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly, Exactly. So in 1942, an order is issued for the internment of Japanese Canadians, which affects about 90% of the Japanese Canadian population. How big that population is, I don't know. And they weren't granted Full freedom of movement again until 1949. Crikey, that's a bit stiff, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Well, this is a big one and this is a very controversial one with. In America as well.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, hugely controversial.

[James Holland]

Yeah, because Roosevelt does the same, but he doesn't do it for Italian Americans and he doesn't do it for German Americans, but he does for Japanese Americans. And it's got the whiff of racism there. It just has the whiff big time. I mean, it's a big black. It's a bit. It's a black mark against Roosevelt, there's no question about it.

[Al Murray]

But also, if you had to, if you were going to return all German Americans, I mean, how big are you a prison? Have you got to build camp? Have you got to build.

[James Holland]

Well, quite. But it's unedifying and it's not good, it's rotten.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they get an apology in compensation for the Canadian government in 1988 for their treatment.

[James Holland]

Yeah, just amazing, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

And in Norway, this is good stuff. Norwegian bishops mass resign in protest rather than swear fealty to the Quisling government. Wonderful stuff. And I mean, of all things, the Soviets are trying to bump off Franz von Papen in Turkey and they fail to do so.

[James Holland]

Can you believe it?

[Al Murray]

What's that all about?

[James Holland]

And then a British submarine in 1943, in February, third week of February, the U class submarine, which the same ones, of course, that Upholder and Urge and all the rest of it, HMS Vandal is lost with all hands just four days after commissioning, which is the shortest career of a submarine in the Royal Navy's history.

[Al Murray]

That's awful.

[James Holland]

Meanwhile, U649 sinks during her training after a collision with U232 in the Baltic. And then not long after that, U232 is then sunk in early July 1943 on her third patrol by a Wellington in the Bay of Biscay with no survivors. So again, your point about bombers dropping bombs on vessels are darn effective if you can make it work.

[Al Murray]

That was the other thing that happened this week is Jamie Heffer, who looks after Norham Burcham. He's found my friend Dominic's dad in all the records and posted photos of him and everything because he got in touch with his brother. It's just absolutely amazing. And the photo he posted, he is his father is the absolute spit of Dom. It's actually a bit like, oh, my God, it's him in the photo, but in an RAF uniform and without a goatee with Like a natty with a natty beard, you know. Quite extraordinary. Quite extraordinary, yeah.

[James Holland]

That is.

[Al Murray]

He met his wife on the station, you know, and she was a. She was a Waf. And there's some photos of the Waffs hanging out.

[James Holland]

Oh, that's brilliant.

[Al Murray]

Then the next February 1944, U257 is sunk on her six patrols.

[James Holland]

Sticking with a naval theme in this one, aren't we? In the third week of February and

[Al Murray]

she's sunk by the river class frigate Canadian river class frigate HMCS Waskissieux. And the Americans and the Australians capture Irawe in New Britain as part of the much larger Operation Cartwheel.

[James Holland]

God, that's two of the unpronounceables, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

It's all quite difficult that in 1945, February 1945, HMS Duckworth, which is a Captain class frigate, it sinks its fifth U boat, U1208, with HMS Rowley in the English Channel. Crikey. The Soviets declare victory in the Lower Silesian offensive and start their start line, forming their start line for the Battle of Berlin. That's to come.

[James Holland]

Yes, of course, in February 1945 is also operation Veritable. Don't leave that out. Still thundering away. Capturing cleave, etc.

[Al Murray]

Well, cleave's basically completely flattened, isn't it?

[James Holland]

There's also, of course, the bombing of Dresden and Fort Sime and Varisoft things and Wurzburg. It's all that, that neck of the woods, isn't it? Plenty going on. That's the truth of it.

[Al Murray]

Plenty going on. Immense sets of meanwhiles, anyway. Well, I think we've. I think we've war waffled to great aplomb here, Jim. I wish Junior luck in coming up with a title for this show.

[James Holland]

I can see it's official. Hitler's only got one ball.

[Al Murray]

Surely we've got tons to come. More series. We're going to be looking at Audie Murphy's extraordinary career in the Second World War, Japan's road to war. We're going to be looking at the visionaries, the thinkers and the movers and shakers on the Allied side of the Second World War and how they arrived. The global security apparatus that maybe is unraveling little at the moment. And the Bruneval raid.

[James Holland]

Yes, can't wait for that unequivocally successful

[Al Murray]

operation of the Second World War.

[James Holland]

Meanwhile, the Channel Dash.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Oh, God, we'll have had the Channel Dash by now. Thing is, I think you can explain it. It's easy to explain.

[Stephen Fry]

If you want.

[James Holland]

We will do Singapore one time.

[Al Murray]

We will.

[James Holland]

One day.

[Al Murray]

One day we'll get around to it.

[James Holland]

We'll probably record our lowest ever downloads. No one wants to listen to it. It's too depressing, right?

[Al Murray]

Our last membership live stream was on Monday the 23rd. The next one is scheduled for March 9th. They're fortnightly live streams on a Monday and they're exclusive for our Patreon subscribers. So please do sign up now. If you go on the Patreon you get live stream membership. You get chunks of audiobook and stuff that I've been reading to go with the series that we've been doing. And you've also got ticket offers and stuff for we have ways Fest 6, which is of course that weekend proper of September later in the year. Thanks very much for listening everybody. We hope you've enjoyed this slab of war waffle. The other is in the Albert Hall. We'll see you soon. Cheerio.

[James Holland]

Cheerio.

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[Al Murray]

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[Empire Podcast Host]

Troy, the Odyssey, the Iliad. All of these great ancient epics depict a monumental collapse that destroyed the interconnected empires of 3,000 years ago. And to understand the Bronze Age apocalypse that homer wrote about 400 years after it happened, subscribe to Empire Where World History A fellow goal hanger podcast where we are deep diving into the biggest imperial collapse in ancient history. To get a flavor of the series, here is a clip from our episode with none other than Stephen Fry.

[Stephen Fry]

It is one of my favorite subjects. The story of the Greeks and the siege of Troy and Odysseus return home. Of course I say Greeks. Homer called them The Achaeans, the Danaans, the Argives. The word Greeks is a much later one, but it refers really to the Mycenaeans, a warrior aristocracy essentially obsessed with honor and reputation that would give them an eternal glory. A kleos, as they call it. It's the kleos that's in the name of so many Greeks. You know, Cleopatra and all, the Socrates, Heracles, who's Hercules, you know, Hera's glory. He was actually named Heracles because she hated him, because he was a love child of Zeus. And she never liked Zeus's love childs. Her husband, her errant husband. And so, as an attempt to placate her, Teiresias, because he was born in Thebes, suggested that he change his name as a baby. This was, to Heracles, the glory of Hera.

[Al Murray]

It didn't help much.

[Stephen Fry]

It didn't help at all. Athena even put her on Hera's breast when Hera was asleep because it would bond them if he suckled her milk. But she. She woke and saw it and tossed him away, and her breast milk spread across the sky to form the Milky Way.

[Al Murray]

I didn't know that story because Galaxy,

[Stephen Fry]

of course, is from the Greek for milk, Galactic, as in lactic. So the chocolate makers are right. Anyway, this is completely separate.

[Al Murray]

Funnily, though, Cleop, keep going. Don't start. Well, we really hope you enjoyed that clip. To hear more on the Bronze Age

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apocalypse and how it shaped the ancient Greek epics, just subscribe to Empire wherever

[Al Murray]

you get your podcasts.