← WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
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- [00:02]
Al Murray
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- [00:25]
James Holland
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- [00:54]
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- [01:24]
James Holland
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- [02:00]
Narrator
From Ukrul A track had been used.
- [02:01]
Al Murray
Before the rains as a main supply.
- [02:03]
Narrator
Route by the Japanese. This narrow road wound along hillsides, dropped into valleys and climbed pretty steeply up through forests. Never wider than a single vehicle, it had been transformed by the rain into a glissade of mud. Bridges were washed away and under the weight of abandoned Japanese vehicles the road collapsed in places in a slither of mud and shale down the hillsides. Everywhere the ravages of disease and starvation were apparent from the large jungle camps lining the road. From mullahs and valleys lived in by the Japanese rose the stench of putrefaction.
- [02:33]
Al Murray
At the side of the road or.
- [02:34]
Narrator
Full on down the hillside lay vehicles drivers dead at the wheel or lying beside their vehicles. Embedded in the foot deep mud of the road were dead Japanese and The carcasses of mules worked to death in the frantic endeavor to escape people. Equipment lay everywhere as evidence of a rout. That was Major John Shipster, who I.
- [02:51]
Al Murray
Imagine spoke a little like that. 7th 2nd Punjab Regiment of the 7th Indian Infantry Division. And welcome to. We have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland and our series about Burma 45. The Unforgotten Army. Jim. Right.
- [03:06]
Expert
The Unforgotten Army. We haven't forgotten them. They're very much the forefront and in time, older fashion. This is about Burma 45, but obviously we're starting in 1944. Well, you know, you have a bit of context, and I think one of the things that I really, really hope comes across particularly strongly in these first two episodes in this series, well, throughout the series, to be fair, is that anyone operating in Burma has got two enemies. You know, one enemy is the actual enemy, the Japanese, or in the Japanese case of Anglo Indian Army. But also the conditions and the weather. I mean, this is just an unbelievably remote part of the world in 1944 into 1945. It's unbelievably brutal. It's absolutely just ringing with disease and horrible and insects and all sorts of other kind of horrors. And of course, it is subject to the most torrential monsoon for kind of half the year, basically from sort of May to November every year. And we left the last series, Burma 44, at the end of the Battle of Imphal and Kohima in July 1944. But those who know have a sort of vague understanding of what happens in Burma. Is retreat out of Burma in 1942, then attack again in the end of 1942 into the beginning of 1943 in Arakan. That goes horribly wrong. Then triddle their thumbs while the monsoon's going on. Slim Cut comes in, revolutionizes things a bit. Then there's the Battle of the admin box in February 1944. Then there's a big Japanese attack into Northeast India, the Manipur State and Nagaland, which culminates in the Battle of Imphal and kahima, which Slim's 14th army win spectacularly. Then nothing really happens again until early part of 1945. Again, you've got another strike in Tarakan. You've got the sort of crossing of the River Chindwin and the River Irrawaddy. Then you've got Mandalay and Miktina before finally getting to Rangoon. But of course, it's nothing like as simple as that. And Kahima in fall ends in July 1940, 44. So what the heck are they doing between July and the beginning of January 1945?
- [04:59]
Al Murray
The thing is there's only so much they can do, as you said, because of the monsoon. I mean this is what's really peculiar about the Burmas. The campaigning season isn't like in northwest Europe or in Italy that they fight through the traditional campaigning season. So you never used to fight in the winter. The Second World War. There's major offensives and stuff going on in the winter in Europe but here the climate, the weather is actually much more restrictive and it creates a kind of campaigning season that everyone's really bound to that in the heavy rain it's extremely difficult to do anything meaningful, isn't it?
- [05:28]
Expert
Which doesn't mean that they don't do things and they are doing things because you know Imphal is quite a way into, into Northeast India, into Manipur State, you know, it's another kind of sort of 100 miles or so to you know, towards Tiddim which is just over the other side of the, of the border with Burma to the south and to Tamu which is again the other side of the border in Burma but you know, is south east of, of Imphal in the plain of Imphal, through the hills, through the Chin hills and you know, they're all exhausted. You know, they've been at it since March so this has been a long battle. The rain's been coming down since May. You know, everyone needs a bit of a breather but at the same time they do need to still press on. And one of the units which is doing the pressing on is the seventh Indian Division. So I thought just to start off with, let's stick with Major John Shipster because you know he's part of the 7th Indian Division which don't forget that's the division which has been at the admin box. So not only have they been at the admin box fighting that one, they've then been involved in the battle of Kahima. So they've had a terrible time of it. Shipster himself, immediately after the battle of Imphal is given some leave in Calcutta and he stays in a lot. Large hotel requisition for officers which is sort of, this is one of the sort of constant problems. It's notable for lack of any kind of female company whatsoever. You know, requisition hotels really the only option for these sort of places of leave. So you know, it's all about the mess and clubs and drinking and sport and all the rest of it. But you know Be that as is made there's convivial company and refreshment and chance to sort of, you know, to recharge yourself a little bit. So he has his little bit of leave and then he returns to his battalion, the 7th 2nd Punjabs and they're pulled back for a bit so they're retraining and it's no longer for jungle training that they doing and more of this in a future episode but, but what they're really doing is readying for all arms combat in the open plains of central Burma. You know, so it's farewell jungle, hello pagoda and rivers. That's what it's about. And this is about all arms combat. This is artillery, infantry and armor and motorized vehicles. You know, this is in how do you cooperate together. And of course you know they've all been training about jungles and how to make the jungle your friend and all the rest of it. So this is quite a departure and that's needed and this is something that Slim has, has recognized but he's back from mid December. So new roads have been constructed into Burma for the first time in a long while. They're transported south to Tamu on a newly resurfaced road in trucks. And this is just incredible this how they deal with this. And again more of that in a, in a bit.
- [07:51]
Al Murray
Yes, the sappering effort's amazing, isn't it?
- [07:53]
Expert
Absolutely incredible. Yeah. And they're now operating in independent company groups so they're protecting the left flank of the division. So what this means is in, you know this was split up into platoons and they're operating on foot with mules but they're completely self sufficient so they're scouting and clearing the area ahead of them of any Japanese rear guards. So they're just sort of combing their way through the hills. But Shipster's loving it. You know, he feels fit, well morale sky high. They're beating the Japanese. You know, he's enjoying this new role. You know he points out in his memoir the only blight is the ulcers on his legs. You know these are sort of the perennial jungle sores. I mean I've got to say that would drive me absolutely do lally and I don't think I'd be feeling fit and well and with high morale if I had jungle sores. But you know, yes, it's just as.
- [08:38]
Al Murray
Well as morale is good, isn't it? They're on the front foot because that, that would easily, very easily get you down and this can be anything. This is Basically a cut on your leg. And the. It's so humid and so hot that it becomes infected. And this is a thing that basically everyone, everyone suffers with jungle sores one way or another. You've got to be careful you, you cut or graze yourself, it'll go bad. It's the simple business of it, isn't it? It's a horrible, horrible notion, isn't it?
- [09:03]
Expert
Horrible. Absolutely horrible. And again, I go back to my early point. You know, this is. You're fighting two enemies here. They'd move on. They sort of clear the hills occasionally run into some Japanese rear guards. They'd disappear off into the. Into the jungle because we're not in the open plains of the Shui Bow Plain at this point. And so they're still in the jungle. And every night he and his company would take shelter near a small stream or river. So they've got water and stuff. Before the sun goes down, they would hear the unmistakable cry of this bird, which sounded like fuck you, fuck you. You know, in the evening air. And so they called it the fuck you bird. It was always heard every evening but never seen. And so one night, you know, this starts to sort of grate on his nerves. So one evening after his O group, which is the orders group, which where they're sort of discussing what they're going to do the next day with his senior NCOs and officers, Shipster offers 15 rupees about quid for anyone who could locate this bird and get rid of it. And eventually a young Punjabi returns saying, I got him Saab and Shipster go shabosh. But where is it? The soldier explains it wasn't a bird at all, but a large lizard.
- [10:11]
Al Murray
Amazing, isn't it?
- [10:12]
Expert
Yeah, really good.
- [10:13]
Al Murray
I think what's remarkable about this is that two years previously, the British and the Indian armies have got no answer to the Japanese at all. In this theater, you say that the jungle's another enemy. What they've actually come to understand isn't it, is that the Japanese are also dealing with the jungle, that it's in essence the jungle has a vote and as picked neither side in the way that the weather gets a vote. But this is like on another level completely. But the fact that they're operating so confidently and so competently, I mean, it's a rout in Burma in 1942, isn't it? There's no other way of looking at it. That whole catalog of chaos as they're withdrawing, Alex turning up and sort of trying to rally people, Slim making sure his men march in in good order with their heads held high so they don't come home feeling defeated. All that stuff, it's miles behind them. And the way they've put that behind them. And as you say, 7th India Division have had a hard year's fight.
- [11:03]
Expert
What they've discovered in 1942 is that they are not equipped, trained, or in any way supplied for the battle which is confronting them. So they've got to learn those lessons. And, you know, that's obviously instigated to a very large extent by Slim, you know, when he's acting Eastern army commander in the second half of, you know, in the late summer and early autumn of 1943. And, you know, he, with Mountbatten's support, manages to turn that around in pretty quick order. And, you know, but there are other factors. There's air power, which is completely dominated by the Allies now to an overwhelming amount, which means you can all sorts of complicated things which you couldn't do in 1942, such as supply John Shipster and his men by airdrop. And what they've discovered also is, is that the Japanese can only move fast when they can steal it from them. So if you deny it to them that, you know, they start to get in trouble pretty quickly. And the kind of superhuman Jap, you know, that myth has been well and truly punctured. And the Japanese are now having all the problems that the British had coming out of Burma, which is poor supplies, running out of everything, no air power, and not having the equipment and supplies to be able to resist what the Anglo Indian army is bringing.
- [12:11]
Al Murray
And the enemy being inside your decision loop, because that's the other thing, is that the Japanese in 42 completely get inside the British way of thinking. They get completely inside. They're making decisions days ahead of the British response to those decisions. It's completely the other way around now.
- [12:26]
Expert
It's completely reversed.
- [12:27]
Al Murray
It is quite extraordinary. And one of those things that what Slim's able to do is sort of boil off the people who are no good and draw clever people to him and draw people with jungle experience and pool thinking with. With the Australians, with the, you know, with anyone who's talking about jungle warfare. They're all drawn in together to put the Jungle Book together. But as you say, he's also looking beyond that now to combined arms operations in the Burmese plains, which is, I think that he's thinking a campaign ahead. The Japanese can't think about what happened to them yesterday, and he's thinking into next year is quite remarkable.
- [12:58]
Expert
There's a lot of forward thinking here. But just get back to Shipster. So he's in a, in an Indian WR regiment. And so how these, just a reminder how these Indian divisions work is in it you have three brigades. Each of those brigades had three infantry battalions of sort of, you know, 870 men each. You would have. Of those battalions, one would be British, one would be Indian army, you know, or, or Indian and one would be Gurkha. So this is Shipsters is the Indian version. So what that means is, you know, that they're being supplied by the air. He's a British officer, he has to speak to all his men in Hindi. The result, no English spoken whatsoever. None of his men, only his fellow officers speak English. So it's all Hindi. And that, that's how they speak and that's how they communicate. You know, obviously different rations as well. Hindus have no tin meat, so that's got to be different. They also need fodder for them, for the mules. You know, really the only time shipsters speaking English is on the rear link radio. I mean it's just amazing. And only once do they run into a Japanese ambush. They temporarily lose some of their mules and a few of his men are wounded and these are evacuated by light aircraft in a jungle clearing which again is another sign of how the, you know, they're really their act together because Kazavak casualty evacuation is really, really important. At one point even his mail reaches him, including a box of golf balls from his mother, because he said, you know, I quite like to play some golf when I'm on leave and obviously it's come too late. But he just throws him away. One night he pauses, enjoys an especially good mug of tea using water from the stream, only later to discover a rotting elephant in the water a little bit further on. And in this way, Shipster and his company March 325 miles from Tamu to Pakoku on the Irrawaddy. You know, we're jumping ahead of here. That doesn't happen till a little bit later until February. But each day they moving forward in silence. They stop at dusk, they prepare food, dig defensive positions and then repeat over and over and over again. And by early 1945, the seventh second Punjabis are part of a far, far bigger enterprise for the reconquest of Burma. And this is all part of a daring plan which, as you were mentioning, has been hatched by General Bill Slim, but which had taken a heck of a lot longer to get authorized and signed off at the Highest level than you frankly might have expected after amazing and emphatic victory at Imphal. But as ever with these things, nothing is quite as straightforward and very often not quite what it seems.
- [15:15]
Al Murray
And always the thing to bear in mind is that what makes this all the more remarkable is that they're at the back of the queue in terms of material logistics. They're doing all this not with one hand behind their back. I don't want to give that impression. This campaign isn't the priority. And in fact, when the Infa Kohima campaign, you know, successfully concluded, London don't really know, the penny doesn't really drop with them as to what he's actually achie and what he set out to do and what he's achieved. Brook doesn't quite get it, which is quite fascinating. You know, obviously Brook's looking at northwest Europe, that's where, that's where his eye is. They don't quite understand it in London, do they?
- [15:49]
Expert
No.
- [15:49]
Al Murray
What's interesting is Slim is actually order combat in July during the height of the monsoon, isn't he? Because he's broken his own rules and taken a bath after sunset and he's got malaria. Slim's view on malaria is he'll fire battalion officers if they, battalion commanders if they don't abide by his malaria rules. You know, he only has to sack three of them. But here he's broken his own rule and as a result he's laid up and the, the weather, that time of year, I mean, and he notes the weather, the weather's made it very, very difficult to pursue trying to chase Japanese 15th army down.
- [16:18]
Expert
But it's difficult, it's just a nightmare. And also, you know, he's got to rotate his troops out. He's got to rotate them out, A to give them a rest, B to retrain them. So that's going to kind of necessarily slow them down. And you know, just the conditions, the non existent tracks, the non existent roads, all these sort of things. I mean, you know, it's just, it's just very difficult. It's a sort of slow business. But it's also important to be methodical because you do need to clear India completely of Japanese troops. And you also need to clear those hills and the Chin Hills in the north of Burma as you crossing over sort of Tidim and Tamu, that area of northern Burma. You need to, you need to make sure that that is also clear so that you've got, you know, you absolutely know where you are. You've got no surprises, no One's going to come up and sort of, you know, sneak out of the jungle and so you need to blow up, you know, a supply train or something like that. All of this is important. He writes, hill tracks in a terrible state.
- [17:09]
Al Murray
He's from Birmingham, Jim. They want him a brummy. Come on.
- [17:12]
Expert
Hill tracks in a terrible state. Farther. So slippery the men can hardly walk or knee deep in mud. I don't think we can pull that off. Junior has just put a note in the. In the psycho, We've lost Bourneville. Okay, I'm gonna go back and do it in how I imagine Slim talks. Hill tracks in a terrible state. I was so slippery that men can hardly walk or knee deep in mud. Administrative difficulties considerable. Half a company took 10 hours to carry two stretcher cases four miles. A party of men without packs took seven hours to cover five miles.
- [17:49]
Al Murray
I know which I prefer, but I mean, the crucial thing is it's all about sickness, isn't it? 9th Brigade of 5th India Division. They lose five, they lose nine killed in action, 85 wounded in action, action. But 507 to sickness and disease.
- [18:02]
Expert
Yeah, that's just in July 1944.
- [18:04]
Al Murray
Yeah. Essentially everyone at some point has malaria. Basically, they have to completely rejig how they deal with it. And I think what's really interesting is it sort of echoes how they deal with combat fatigue, is that they do it as close to the front as they possibly can, that you're not on a train, sent all the way back to India. You're dosed up, you're given the rest you need, and then you're turned around and sent back. Because the other thing is, the other thing they don't want is the impression that malaria is your ticket out. The people don't think, well, you know, Jack got malaria, he's gone now, he won't be back for six months. That's a big part of the way they decide to deal with it. But it's interesting, isn't it, what Slim says about when they do capture Tamu and it's 11th East African Division, so this is a completely duke effort. That's the other thing to bear in mind. He says it's always a disappointment in the Burma campaign to enter a town that had been a name on the map and a goal for which men fought and died. My soldiers walked warily alert for booby traps and snipers through a tangle of burnt beams, twisted corrugated iron, with here and there rising among the squalid ruins, the massive chipped and stained pagodas and chinthis of a Buddhist temple in Tamu. The place was a charnel house of a macabre eeriness, hard to describe. 550 Japanese corpses lay unburied in its streets and houses, many grouped grotesquely around stone Buddhas which looked blandly out over the sacrifices huddled at their feet. Dozens more, over a hundred, lay in indescribable filth, dying of disease and starvation amongst the corpses. Everywhere they go, the Japanese armies in this state, and this is the Japanese, you know, the famed Japanese army that can advance through the jungle on a, you know, on a pocket full of rice or whatever.
- [19:37]
Expert
Yeah, yeah.
- [19:38]
Al Murray
They've been completely eviscerated by Slim's campaign and their method has failed them. And their method is to move forward, capture supplies, restage, move forward, capture more supplies, and to live not off the land, but off the British. And it's failed. And so they've got nothing left, have they? But I mean, it's. It's all about disease, isn't it?
- [19:57]
Expert
Yeah, and you can't help it. I mean, it's great, great that Shipster and his men are so, you know, gung ho and full of morale, high morale, but, you know, I mean, imagine you've just done this amazing victory and it's kind of. All right then. So shall I put a kettle on? I mean, you know, I mean, there's no victory march, there's no triumph. There's no kind of people patting them on the back. There's nothing whatever kind of sort of cheer you might have felt in the summer, by the end of this sort of long period, if you haven't had sufficient time out of the line, you know, people starting to suffer from bad diet and exhaustion and illness, as we've already talked about. But, you know, one of the things they've discovered is that because of the stress of combat, food passes through the system, the body, body system quicker than normal. And that's making the body increasingly inefficient at extracting the necessary vitamins and minerals. So, in other words, the sort of bodies are becoming so traumatized by battling conditions, you know, and in the first six months of 1944. So this is up to some, you know, up to the end of the battle, Southeast asia Command lost 40,000 killed in action and wounded in action. But 282,000, I mean, that's a problem.
- [20:59]
Al Murray
This is how it goes.
- [21:01]
Expert
This is how it goes. I mean, it's the same for both sides, to be fair, but. And actually it's worse for the Japanese because they've got less of the medication that the allies have. This saps speed and energy and efficiency. Everything that is achieved in this time and going forward into 1945, which is obviously what we're mainly talking about, you have to put it in the context of the debilitating conditions, which I think makes the achievements all the more remarkable.
- [21:26]
Al Murray
But there are other people with big plans in Burma, though, aren't there?
- [21:29]
Expert
Yes, and Mitkeena is a name that kind of sort of crops up time and time again in the narrative of the Burma campaign. And although this is a predominantly, not entirely by any stretch of imagination, American command does need to be kind of mentioned, I think, because it has an enormous impact on the decision making for the Burma campaign.
- [21:48]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [21:48]
Expert
So this is Vinegar Joe's Stillwell.
- [21:51]
Al Murray
Well, because I was gonna say, if the forgotten army have forgotten and the Chinese army fighting in Burma is even more completely forgotten, this is the thing that doesn't get talked about at all, really. And this is an American equipped, trained and organized commanded Chinese army, isn't it?
- [22:06]
Expert
Yes. So it's the Northern Combat Area Command, which is a sort of. Is an area rather than an organization as such. And, you know, the northern part of Burma, you've got part of the border is with. With Manipur, what is now Manipur state in India, but the other part of the border is with China. This is so important because from the Burma road, going from Rangoon up through sort of M and then Mandalay and on into the supply route for Chiang Kai Shek's nationalists against the Japanese. But obviously that was then blocked when the Japanese overran Burma in 1942. So they then been trying to build another road, which is the Lido Road, which is sort of led by Stilwell's engineers. And that is created. And that is literally a long, straight road straight through jungle. It's just, you know, it's an extraordinary engineering feat. So they're just about in there. But the whole point about this operation south is to improve. You know, Stilwell is very against the notion of the hump. The hump is the kind of the air supply to the Nakcha Chang's Nationalists, which is going over the Himalayas from airfields in Assam. And this is something that the Americans are very keen on, particularly Roosevelt. And also, you know, Stillwell, Beijit Chungking has constant battles with Claire Cheno, who is the American Air Force commander there, who is very much kind of, you know, air power, is it. And he's also battling Chang, who is unspeakably corrupt and is just squirreling away money and funds and all the rest of it, and add that together, the ineffectiveness of air power to be able to kind of defeat the Japanese on its own, combined with the grotesque corruption of Chang's Nationalists and Chang himself makes Stillwell very against this. Sort of costly in terms of aircraft, air crew and of course, you know, economically in terms of the supplies that are being brought. Thinks it's a waste of time, this is not the way to do it. Thinks the way to do it is to try and open up Burma and create that route, put pressure on the Japanese that way and open a land route again. So he's all in favor of this and is, you know, it's just a constant struggle, you know, because even where he is, he's very remote from. From the seat of power in Washington and all the rest of it. And not many people are coming there. So, you know, and Shenow is saying one thing, Chang is saying something else. You know, Stilwell is saying something completely different. And everyone knows that Stilwell might be a brilliant commander, but he's, you know, he's rough and ready and calls a spade a spade, and not necessarily the most diplomatic. And so his judgment on a diplomatic, political level is not quite taken at face value. So anyway, that's the background to all of this. And so what he's trying to do is trying to sort of open up the Lido Road and open up a route into that northern area of Burma, put greater pressure on the. On the Japanese from the northeast of Burma. So he's got the Chinese Expeditionary Force, which is commanded by General Wai Lai Hung, with the new, developed, new equipped, newly retrained First Army, First Chinese Army. But because of the corruption of the Nationalists, it's still under trained, under equipped, but they do have now mostly British and American kit, so US helmets, British small arms, American small arms, British 25 pounders and so on. And this operation is also supported by Merrill's Marauders, which commando group, I suppose, for want of a better term, under Stillwell's command. And also the Chindits, now commanded by Mike Calvert, who later becomes a sort of SAS legend post War in Malaya. The operation begins with the Chinese First army starting its march from China on the 15th of March, and they're pushing back the Japanese all the way. But of course, you know, as we know, in May, the monsoon begins and it all starts to. Starts to sort of slightly peak her out on the 17th of May, with the rain absolutely hoofing down First army with Merrill's Marauders supporting Them, you know, they attack the airfield at Makina and the Japanese are completely caught out by surpr. They manage to take it swiftly and largely intact. And United States Army Air Force sky trains then fly in 89th Regiment of the Chinese 30th Division. So they're starting to get pretty used to this and pretty good at flying in infantry units. They then attack the town, but two Chinese units mistakenly start fighting each other and the Japanese kind of hold up one part of the time and a sort of stalemate follows. And June sees the town of Mackina besieged. But at the end of June, Calverts Chinditsu are attacking, attacking independently from the first Chinese army from the southwest. They capture a small village called Magong, which is 30 miles west of Makina. And that means the Chinese and the Japanese are now isolated because they've no longer got that. That's cut off their supply line from, you know, Mandalay Miktila further to the south. But the Chindits are also struggling with supplies and disease. So Stillwell then sends the British 36th Division Division to take the railway corridor between Magong and Indore on the right flank from Mitkina. And pressure sort of gradually, slowly but surely builds on the Japanese defenders. And on the 3rd of August, General Genzo Mizukami, who's holding McTina, orders his troops to abandon the town and of course, in time on fashion, takes his own life at the same time. So it's been this sort of, you know, it's, you know, we're now August and so it's, it's five months of pretty tough fighting. We've sort of broken down into sort of three minutes summary and interesting that.
- [27:06]
Al Murray
The Chindits are involved because after all, this is Calvert's Chindits. Ord Wingate's killed in a plane crash at the beginning of this Chindit insertion operation.
- [27:13]
Expert
So it's already taking a different shape.
- [27:14]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I mean it's, it's interesting, isn't it, because there is some. There's considerable grumbling about them having to do what Stillwell wants, but actually it's all, it's successful and it's not proof of the original concept, but proof that these guys can, can be very, very effective if they're tied into something else.
- [27:30]
Expert
Actually, actually, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what, what that means is, is that they now have McTina with another airfield which again, it's this sort of plus one, minus one. You're, you're getting it, you're, you're getting the benefit of yourself and you're denying it to the enemy. It basically means you've got that important chunk of North East Burma is now in, in Allied hands. The Lido Road is still not entirely open. It's sort of, you know, you've taken a big step in the right direction. So that does sort of change things. But, but I think it's also, also fair to say that the absolutely enormous victory in Imphal is just not really appreciated. Back in, in London and Washington, they don't really understand what it means because it's just so freaking remote. So the combined Chiefs of Staff, you know, they're still pretty in the dark really, you know, and at this point, you know, in his diary, you know, General Alan Brooke, who's the Chief of the Imperial General Staff, is still sort of sweating about the threat to Assam. But you know, that had gone back in April.
- [28:22]
Al Murray
Yeah. What's also happening is Brooks fixated on using shipping, assault shipping, and doing an amphibious landing to sort of get round the Japanese, isn't he? But, but actually that there's going to be no need for that if Slim can do things the way he wants to.
- [28:36]
Expert
You can only really understand the kind of fighting in, in this, this terrain. If you're out there, you can be of a mind that is open and aggressive and, you know, and keen to absorb new ideas, but you've got to get out there and see for yourself. And I think what, what. You know, back in London, you know, Brook is visiting, you know, North Africa. He's visiting the battlefields of Sicily. He's, you know, event into Italy and looks around and sees for himself. But he's not getting out to Burma, you know, he's not coming there. You know, if the bigwigs need to discuss with the Chiefs of staff, they go to the bigwigs, they fly to London or they fly to Quebec or wherever it might be. There's no kind of reverse trip. And so they're just looking at maps and pictures and looking at the kind of terrible terrain and lack of roads and jungle and hills and just thinking, well, it can't be done. But that's because they don't understand the evolution, the revolution almost, that's been taken in 14th army under Slim stewardship and under Mountbatten's overseeing and facilitating, you know, that just means that they're not really in the best position to make the right decisions.
- [29:34]
Al Murray
Well, and if you're in London with V2s, V1s falling in London, you've got.
- [29:38]
Narrator
A more immediate fish to fry, haven't.
- [29:40]
Al Murray
You right is really what's concentrate mines back in the uk. Right, we'll take a quick break and we'll come back to see what Slim's.
- [29:46]
Expert
Plan is because needless to say, he's got one.
- [29:48]
Al Murray
Of course he has. And how he's going to do this without maybe resorting to a great big amphibious spectacular for which there isn't shipping. Anyway, we'll see you time next a second.
- [30:00]
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Expert
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- [31:06]
Al Murray
You broke the Internet for a snack?
- [31:09]
Expert
Snack wrap is back.
- [31:19]
Al Murray
Welcome back to Weird Ways of AQ Talk. We left you dangling there with the prospect of Slim's plan to retake Burma. But before that, let's dangle another prospect in front of you. We have wazefest. Wait three months away now, Jim, isn't it? In September 12th to the 14th at Black Pit Brewery, go to we havewaysfest.co.uk to look for tickets. You can get day tickets, weekend tickets. There's camping, there's beer, there's war waffle of the highest order. Under 16s are free. Come and say hello. We'd love to see you there. That's that enticing prospect. But now, Jim, Slim's plan is to not just pursue the Japanese. Well, Into Burma, because after all, as you pointed out in Fakahima, that's in India. Right. We're now looking to actually retaking Burma completely, and maybe even Rangoon.
- [32:04]
Expert
And Rangoon is quite as on the coast, is on the west coast of Burma and quite a long way to the south. So, you know, that's why this seems like a big word. Whereas Mandalay is on the Irrawaddy, and it's. And it's kind of further up to the northeast of the. Of the country. Yeah.
- [32:17]
Al Murray
But basically everything's changed. They know they can beat the Japanese. How? They've revolutionized training, but the training's worked. It's one thing revolutionizing the training, it's. The training then works. And that's how you create confidence. It's that Mobius strip. Yes, you improve the training. But if the training's no good, you know, there's no benefit in it, is there? But there's this. This feeling of growing. Growing confidence because they have changed their way of doing things and it's delivered. That's why, you know, people are feeling. Even with jungle sores. That's John Shipster's feeling. Feeling good about things, isn't it?
- [32:49]
Expert
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. You know, and all these things, you sort of get used to your environment. I mean, that's, that's the truth of it. And actually, you harden to this stuff pretty quickly. I mean, you know, what seems absolutely intolerable to us now. You. You just do. You. You adapt. And I think the other thing is, of course, is. Is air power is. Is the really big game chamber. It's such an enabler of ground operations because you, you know, you're. You're. You can attack ahead. You can shoot up enemy positions, you know, with a combination of bombs, bullets and cannon shells, and also now napal reconnaissance. But also you can hide yourself, you can hide your ground operations because you control the sky. So, you know, anytime a Japanese reconnaissance aircraft comes over, it gets zapped. You know, they've got radar now, they've got ground controllers. They've got all sorts of stuff. You know, they really know what they're doing, and they've got a way of. A way of winning. And I think the other thing is, is that Slim, you know, he understands what he can do with what he can do, and that you can make do and mend and that you can't rely on, you know, Washington and London to give you all the kind of supplies that you could want. So you just have to kind of get on with it. But on the other hand, there's an advantage that, because you're out of the spotlight and you can get on with things without people meddling from high above. So this is why he, you know, he starts thinking about a plan which he knows he's pretty sure he's going to be able to implement. It just takes quite a long time to sort of get that. Do not underestimate the huge scale we're talking about here, you know, but, but because to supply 14 farmee at this point, supplies still have to be flown or sent by rail to Assam, you know, which is way too north. This is north of Nagaland, north of Manipur state. It's well into India, you know, we're talking about kind of, you know, by the time you get to Indian border, you know, the Burma border, kind of, of sort of several, a number of, you know, 300 miles away or something like that. And as you get further into Burma, even more than that, you know, so it has to cross the Brahmaputra river to the railhead at Dimapore, then south via one road or then it has to be flown to Assam and then on to Imphal and then on by the very sort of limited road network which of course is in a bit of a state during the monsoon anyway. And along the Indian Burma border, you know, as we've already sort of intimated, there are hundreds of miles of jungle clad hills and these run that then run down to the river Chindwin, which is huge, I mean, huge, huge, huge. I mean this is like a thousand yards wide. So what's that a kilometer wide? Then beyond that is the central plain of Burma, which is more or less flat, which runs roughly north south and is bordered on the eastern side by the even larger river, which is of course the famous Irrawaddy, which in places is kind of several miles wide. So Mandalay lays beyond that and the Irrawaddy then runs roughly south southwest until it reaches Rangoon right on the coast. And this area between the Chindwin and the Irrawaddy is open, dusty. There's trees, of course, but it's not jungle. Is where most of the, the habitation of, you know, most of the settlements, largest, biggest settlements in Burma. This is where they are. This is the area of, you know, Hindu temples and Buddhas and, and all the rest of it. It's kind of much more like the plain of Inf Far but you're clear of jungle. But any advance they do has to be along extremely limited lines of supply and covering huge distances or it has to be provided by air power. And so this is why the kind of the gestation of the plan takes a long time to come to fruition, because although Slim knows what he's got to do, he's got to persuade the people higher up the chain that this is the way forward. So as early as May 1944, Mountbatten, who is the supreme Allied Commander, Southeast Asia Command, has been badgering the combined chief of staff for a decision about what to do after their victory in Northeast India. And obviously by May 1944, it's only. It's a matter of when, not if, that's going to happen. You know, the turning point has happened in the third week of April 1944, when Khima has been saved. And the answer doesn't come until June 1944. And even then, it's a bit of a fudge.
- [36:37]
Al Murray
Well, because there's the political business of keeping Nationalist China on board, isn't there? Which, after all, again, we tend to not to think of that as a moving part in the thinking around this theater. And that, you know, getting aircraft, supply aircraft over the Himalayas. I mean, just that, just that in itself in the 1940s is absolutely incredible. But FDR is doing his thing of saying yes to people, isn't he? And then. And that includes the Chinese.
- [37:04]
Expert
Well, you know, the Chinese strategy has always been driven by him. You know, this is something that he. He's very, very keen, keen on, you know, and I think he's a bit sort of myopic about this.
- [37:13]
Al Murray
Yeah. Yes. I mean, I suppose because it didn't work out for the Americans, maybe he's being myopic, but if it had worked out, he'd be a visionary.
- [37:21]
Expert
Well, yes, I suppose.
- [37:25]
Al Murray
You know, but.
- [37:26]
Expert
I think the sign. The signs are there earlier and there's no kind of sort of, okay, this hasn't worked. Let's back down. You know, they've committed to it and they're going to see it through. And I think that's. That's the point. Whereas, you know, a shift of emphasis. You know, you can still make huge use of all those airfields in Assam and all that, those traffic transports, by supporting a much more sort of consolidated campaign in Burma and clearing it. But of course, there's other stuff going on here, which is, you know, FDR being anti imperialist and worrying that, you know, all the Americans to do is supporting the British reconquering, you know, one of their imperial assets.
- [37:56]
Al Murray
Seac. Save Empire at all costs is what the American joke about.
- [37:59]
Expert
Right.
- [38:00]
Al Murray
Southeast Asia Command is, isn't it? And after all, Stillwell's thinking in terms of the Burma Road. He's not thinking in terms of Burma, he's thinking in terms of his strategic picture involving China in. If in the tumult of that, then Burma's reconquered for the British Empire, he's not going to pat himself on the back for that. He's thinking purely in terms of America's own strategic picture. That's clouding the issue in the decision making, isn't it? But then of course, the other thing is, as you touched on with Slim, is actually they're a long way from London. Mountbatten can really, as long as Slim knows what he wants and they know what they can do, he's going to back him, isn't he? And they have a kind of freedom of movement. It's not like shot safe internal politics breathing down the General's necks in Normandy, is it? It's not on that level at all, no.
- [38:44]
Expert
So anyway, so eventually they get an answer in June which is a little bit kind of wishy washy and it's. And Mountbatten is ordered to press advantages against the enemy by exerting maximum effort ground on air, particularly during current monsoon season. So, you know, it's clear that SEAC 14th army is not going to get an awful lot more in terms of resources, horses. You know, at the same time they, they, that kind of woolly message is giving them a comparatively free hand. I think. You know, the orders don't tell Mountbatten to invade Burma, but they don't. They don't say don't invade Burma either.
- [39:19]
Al Murray
Yeah. And again, they're a long way from London so they could get on with it, can't they?
- [39:22]
Expert
Yeah. So on the 9th of June, Mountbatten orders General Gifford, who, let's not forget him, he is the 11th Army Group Commander commander who is senior to Slim. So there's Mountbatten at the top, then the service, there's three service chiefs, there's Somerville, Admiral Somerville, who's the naval guy, there's Pierce, who is the airman, and there's Gifford who's the 11th Army Group commander. And 14th army is within 11th Army Group. And so Mountban orders Gifford to exploit across the River Chindwin after the monsoon. So from around November onwards, in other words, this is not an emphatic chase to destroy General Mutaguchi's remnants of his 15th army, but, but merely a requirement at this stage to just clear all the areas north of the chindwin. But on the 2nd of July, Slim meets with Mountbatten and not Gifford and tells him that 15 army could mount a full bloody defensive into Burma and he could do so with no more resources than those already allocated for the defence of India. And he also tells him he could launch an offensive by the 1st of November 1944. And so this is catnip to Mount Battle Patton, who's all for kind of, you know, being gung ho and driving the enemy clear and getting greater glory than anyone expects, you know, that reflects well on him. I don't think he's just doing it for his own vanity, but it plays a part. I would say. Mountbatten becomes convinced after this that 14th army could, could reach the Schweibo, which is a town and as well as the name of the plane or of Mandalay, which are two key towns. But Gifford is way more cause and he doesn't think that a largely land based offensive is possible logistically. And Mountbatten is very annoyed by Gifford's negativity. And actually Mountbatten has already sacked Gifford. He sacks him in May but he hasn't got a replacement at this point. So Gifford is staying on, but obviously that's not a particularly good grounds from which to kind of forge a good ongoing relationship.
- [41:15]
Al Murray
Oh, that's eggy, isn't it?
- [41:17]
Expert
So what tends to happen is Gifford to a certain extent is just sort of kept out of the decision making cycle. And Slim is definitely disappointed by Gifford's negativity, but he likes him and gets on with him but. And Gifford does back him to the hill. But also Slim knows that Gifford is on his way out, so he thinks, well, sorry, I'll just go ahead and plan anyway.
- [41:38]
Al Murray
Yeah, well, and you need to make plans, don't you? Regardless.
- [41:43]
Expert
So while all this is going on, this sort of, you know, there's a start of a shape of something to cut, you know, Slim is suggesting that they can get into northern Burma without any extra resources. Mountbatten's keen to back it. So he then presses the Combined Chiefs of Staff for more concrete plans for the recapture of all of burma. And on the 23rd of July he submits two separate plans to London and both are designed to be conducted on their own or independently altogether. So the first one is Operation Capital. This is to take Sims 14th army south across the Irrawaddy to Mandalay and their link up with the US US Still Wells Northern Combat Area Command troops coming down from Lashio in the northeast and coming down from, from you Know the midkena direction. And the second one is Operation Dracula.
- [42:30]
Al Murray
Yeah. Which is a set piece, amphibious assault, paratroopers as well and everything, the whole, the whole nine yards. But next year. And of course that means you've got to get the shipping and all that sort of stuff, haven't you?
- [42:43]
Expert
Yeah, yeah. So you. So that's, that's an assault on Rangoon, but then from Rangoon you then drive north eastwards towards Mandal, rather than coming Manderley from the north. That means you've got to ship your entire force, presumably all of 14th Army.
- [42:58]
Al Murray
Yeah, exactly.
- [42:59]
Expert
So that sounds like La La Land to me.
- [43:01]
Al Murray
Yes, exactly. You're not starting from where you are with that, are you? That's the problem, isn't it? Whereas Slim is at least talking about starting where they are from where they are on the ground rather than completely reconfiguring things.
- [43:13]
Expert
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Manbatten, he gets a pretty kind of poor response, you know, they're not very enthusiastic about either. And again, they haven't really understood the scale of the victory in fall. And they're wary of going back into a country where they had such a terrible defeat in 1942 and failed Arakan Campaign of late 42, early 43, etc. But then the capture of Makina kind of changes things a bit. And Mountbatten, because they're not going to come to him, he goes to them and he flies to London on the 5th of August. There's a big conference on the 7th of August, August in which Brook agrees. You know, Brook is convinced now that actually a land campaign in Burma is worth doing and opening the Lido Road is a game changer. So he now supports Mountbatten's ambitious plans to take Rangoon. There's then a further all day conference on 8 August, which is also attended by Churchill, Eden and the US General Wademayer. And Eden is also there, and Eden is a big supporter of Mountbatten's plans to capture Rangoon. But the problem is that Churchill is very keen on a sideshow which is an attack on Sumatra, which is just complete non starter, but you know, he's got it in his head and he keeps banging this drum. So then Bambam flies back to Ceylon, you know, to Kandy, which is his headquarters on what is now Sri Lanka. And the chiefs of staff then sail to Quebec for a second conference. And at the second Quebec conference, the US are predictably lukewarm about Dracula and kind of go, okay, but. But it's predicated on Germany being beaten by the end of 1944. So Dracula is sort of approved in principle, but kind of left hanging, subject to. A number of historians have been quite critical about Mountbatten, that he's so keen on Rangoon because, you know, he then he can get the glory rather than 14th army. But I've got to say I think that is really not the case. I think the Mountbatten has been brought in there as a combined operation, you know, with his naval power, with his understanding of amphibious assaults and all the rest of it. And this is a way of doing it without all the hassle of having to kind of slog your way through central Burma. I don't think it's really about glory. I think it's about what is the most sensible way to do this. And unquestionably, if they had the assault shipping, Dracula is an absolute slam dunk. But the truth is they don't have the shipping. So Slim is pretty sure this is going to be the case and which is why he's continuing his own plans for an overland invasion of northern Burma, which of course is his operation capital.
- [45:39]
Al Murray
Yeah, he knows what 14th army are capable of in Burma. They've tackled the challenges rather than take on a whole new set of challenges. And he also knows that you've got to do is beat the Japanese emphatically, that it's, that this is a different, that they're not going to surrender. So you've got to beat them, you've got to destroy them. So he basically Slim, you know, is going to interpret the orders he's been given. He knows Dracula's unlikely to happen and even if it does happen, it's a long way off. So what he decides to do is essentially eventually, with a new directive on 16 September from Mountbatten, recapture Burma at the earliest date.
- [46:14]
Expert
I mean, that's a wonderfully open ended, isn't it? Just whenever you can.
- [46:17]
Al Murray
Just whenever you can, as long as you don't prejudice the security of the air supply to China. I mean, and that's an interesting point because after all, air supply is key to this entire thing. So he can carry on and essentially his continuance will merge into the capital plan.
- [46:30]
Expert
For those of you who listened to us, when we were talking about Italy, we were talking about the Anzio operations and we were saying that, you know, when Alexandre backs Anzio, he does so knowing that if it gets sticky, they will find the assault craft for him because they've got these other plans which are, you know, for Operation Anvil which is going to become Dragoon invasion of southern southern France. So there are going to be some landing assault craft there, and if they need to be used in the case of disaster, they will. And. And I think Slim is thinking the same thing. If they're suddenly on a ride in Burma and it's looking good and he urgently needs some air transports, Mountbatten will do that job for him.
- [47:03]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. He's got his back, basically.
- [47:06]
Expert
He's got his back and that's what he's banking on.
- [47:08]
Al Murray
That's the other thing. They want to get it done. This sort of idea that, oh, well, we'll wait until the. Until the circumstances are ready. You want to get it actually. You want to get the war over with, don't you? This is the way to do it.
- [47:19]
Expert
There's also a very good argument for having a separate operation in the Arakan as well. And this is. This is a third operation which is called Operation Romulus. And the key for this is capturing the island of Axe Kyab. Got a separate operation, all of its then called Operation Talon and a further couple of other islands, not least Ramree, because they have airfields. And again, you're denying them to the Japanese, you're getting the benefit of them for yourselves. And the further you can push south, the pressure you're putting on the Japanese, the further space you're gaining for yourself and you can use them as bases to operate, to support Operation Capital. So this is actually really, really key. And 15th Corps is still in the Arakan. This is under General Philip Craig Christensen. And, you know, the idea is, is that. That as front lines are pulled out for retraining, spearheads are pushing southwards, monsoons pushing, you know, absolutely pounding down. Slim in those final months of. Of 1944 is once again finding himself furiously planning and in this case, for an operation which is far more ambitious than anyone in London or India for that matter, has been considering. You know, he. He is always prepared to kind of push things as hard as he possibly can, but with this separate operation in Arakan happening at the same time.
- [48:34]
Al Murray
Yeah, but there's. Because what we've talked about here is a sort of cooperative command set up where, you know, the guy at the top is giving leeway to his subordinates. And even if they have their differences, they chime along. Mountbatten and Slim, they get on fantastic. Slim and Gifford have a good working relationship, even though Mountbatten doesn't really rate Gifford. He thinks he's too, as we said earlier, too negative. There's plenty of anti Mountbatten feeling as well.
- [48:58]
Expert
He doesn't want bellyaches in the Monty tradition.
- [49:01]
Al Murray
There's enough naval grumbling about Mountbatten because after all Mountbatten you could argue is coming out of nowhere and is connected and that's how he's got these jobs. You could, if you're a long serving admiral of the Royal Navy you might feel that like Admiral James Somerville and Richard Pierce. Sir Richard Pierce. But basically then what happens? So he, you as you said he sacked Gifford. There's been no one to replace him back in May. I know but incoming is Lieutenant General Sir Oliver Lees who's come from Italy.
- [49:32]
Expert
Where he's just made an arse of things basically.
- [49:35]
Al Murray
Yeah, he's been kicked upstairs. He doesn't know about the war in Southeast Asia like so many don't. What's truly incredible about the British army is the stuff it has to take on wildly differing campaigns. It takes on, you know, this is nothing like the desert, this is nothing like Italy. And he's appointed on the 14th of September has to finish his first his current battle in Italy before he can can come arrives in November and it's not 11th Armagoute anymore it's allied land forces Southeast Asia. Alf Sea and Slim does not like Lys. There's a great thing where he says they've all got Lisa's people have all got too much sand in their boots, doesn't like them and Lyse wants to show who's boss.
- [50:10]
Expert
Well he just thinks he knows it all. He comes in there, I'm the kind of the big guy. I'm from, I'm from the main campaign, you know, so I'm superior to you. You've just been fighting this little jungle campaign. I'm going to show you the sort of latest modern way of doing things from our very modern mechanized war over in. And it doesn't occur to him that Slim actually is far better than he's giving him credit for. And it doesn't occur to him that Slim knows exactly what he's doing. In fact quite the opposite because on the 15th of December he writes to General Brooke. He goes there's a good deal of ignorance and senior officers in 14th army about the employment of modern arms and equipment. It is for this reason that I'm so anxious to get officers with experience in Europe. Otherwise when we come to a fight on the beaches and in the plains by Mandalay we may get in unnecessary tangles. I mean you're just going ah, no, I mean this is just, you know, he's got it all wrong. He's just an absolute disaster. At the same time, Pierce is. Is replaced by another person that we hold in high regard. Air Chief Marshal Trafford Leigh Mallory. I mean, I wouldn't say fortunately, but he's killed immediately and then replaced by, phew, Air Chief Marshal Keith Park.
- [51:14]
Al Murray
Always waiting in the wings, Keith.
- [51:16]
Expert
Always waiting in the wings, isn't he? Somerville's replaced by Admiral Bruce Fraser, but then Fraser's quickly moved on again to command the British Pacific Fleet. So Pownall is also retired as Chief of Staff. You know, he of Dunkirk fame as well. So a new Chief of Staff now, and that's Boy Browning. I mean, can you believe it? So it's a completely new team and at a very crucial moment. But that's not all because Stillwell has also been fired. You know, having been made a full general on the 4th of August. You know, everyone think he's done really, really well. His increasing criticism of Chang is starting to work against him. You know, he writes that Chang has stolen the equivalent of $380 million from the Americans, which I'm sure is absolutely right. You know, Stilwell is still in favor of taking Burma as quickly as possible and gets on well with. So that's all good. But of course, you know, he's still fighting with Shenow and of course with Chang. And the situation is made worse by the Japanese Operation Ichigo, which we discussed in an earlier episode, which is their offensive that they do in 1944, enormous to sort of link up the coast with what is French Indochina now, Vietnam and China. And FDR is that, you know, Roosevelt decided to see the light and sends a humiliating reprimand to Chang. But he also sends an envoy who's called Patrick J. Hurley. And Stilwell thinks, yes, thank God, I've finally got my way with Chang. He's completely tried, triumphant. But Hurley recognizes that Stilwell's not a diplomat, recognizes the Americans are wedded to this, supporting the Chinese and the Nationalists, and thinks that for that reason, you know, Stilwell has to be replaced. So he's recalled on the 19th of October. I mean, he's absolutely devastated by this, just can't believe it. And he's replaced by General Albert C. Wedema, who is very quickly finding Chang no easy to deal with.
- [52:56]
Al Murray
And still he's very pro Chinese and it's disabused of his view very, very.
- [53:01]
Expert
Quickly, very quickly, quickly. But Stillwell's one role is now converted into two because you've got wiedermere who's doing the diplomatic kind of chief of staff bit with Chang. But the Northern Combat Area Command is now being commanded by Lieutenant General Daniel Sultan.
- [53:15]
Al Murray
I mean, that's big musical chairs with lots to come, isn't it? With another phase of the campaign to come. That's an awful lot of changes, isn't it? But what of the Japanese? Because we've heard about this big reshuffle. I mean, this is. The thing is the Japanese are engaged in this gigantic anti. Offensive in. In China. Ichigo.
- [53:31]
Expert
Yeah.
- [53:31]
Al Murray
And at the same time, it's obvious that Mutagochi's attempt to get into northeastern India, which. Which results in the battles and then destruction of the Japanese 15th army, it's obvious that that's been a disaster. But they're still present in Burma and they. They want to. You know, they don't like letting go of the things they've taken, do they?
- [53:47]
Expert
No.
- [53:48]
Al Murray
So Mutaguchi, this is. I mean, this is. This is interesting. He sacks his three divisional commanders and then he's himself sacked. So, you know, at least they've got that right. And he's sent to the General Staff in Tokyo at the end of August in 44, and he's replaced by Lt. Gen. Shihachi Katamura, who's previously the OC of the 54th Division in Arakan, where the Japanese did well in Arakan. So it might be that he has some answers to fighting the British is what they're thinking. Right? Yeah.
- [54:14]
Expert
So Katamura is now Commander of the 15th Army. The Japanese 15th Army. What's left of it.
- [54:19]
Al Murray
What's left of it. The GOC of the Burma Army Area, General Kawabe, he's also been sacked. So sent home. He's gone back to Tokyo. He's replaced by Lt. Gen. Hayatara Kimura, who's previously head of the Ordnance Administration in Tokyo. So basically a staff officer.
- [54:35]
Expert
Well, yes, but he's a supply man. The point is, you know, in an area where you've got comparatively small supplies, this guy knows what he's doing. That's the idea, yeah.
- [54:44]
Al Murray
And he's a part of the political, politically active bit of the army as well, isn't he? He's clearly been sent as a sort of political stiffener, hasn't he, by the army command. And then Lieutenant General Shinichi Tanaka is now his chief of staff. So they' similar command reboot, but they're on the back foot. So they've gone from Mutaguchi's grand plans that seem to involve seizing all India to hanging on Keeping what they've got. Burma, Thailand, the Malayan peninsula. It's interesting Burma's role now for them is to block the Burma road. So the thing Stilwell was bothered about.
- [55:16]
Expert
Yeah and then the fact. So Stilwell's absolutely spot on because the thing that's really bothering the Japanese is the thing that Stilwell had wanted to exploit and quite rightly too.
- [55:24]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [55:26]
Expert
So what's the most effective? What's going to be the most encumbrance to your enemy?
- [55:29]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah. Well everything's about supply. The fact they've sent supply people. Everything's about supply. Kamura's told that he's got to cut the India to China link De Ru Kagiri as far as possible. That's not dissimilar to Slim's orders, isn't it? That right symmetry, isn't it? Yeah, exactly.
- [55:45]
Expert
Symmetry, yes.
- [55:46]
Al Murray
But he's on his own. He's got to plan for Jikotsu Jisen so basically he's got to self sufficient. There's going to be no help from Japan, there's going to be no help from the army in China. His armies are going to have to live off the land where they were and as we've seen that's been a disaster. That policy has not worked for 15th army before. They're really bad at it because the British stand and fight and there will be no withdrawal. Their seaborne supplies into Rangoon are being strangled. Allied bombing is also disrupting the Burma Siam railway. So their own legit, their logistic problems are multiple multiplying at the precisely the moment they don't want them to. And of course Burma's so important to the British is the rice from Burma that it needs to feed India actually that's its strategic significance within the British Empire. But it's not an industrialized country. They can't build tanks or rifles or whatever with bits of Burma they've got, can they? And you know, and with the problems of the jungle, the jungle, the terrain that the climate having its own vote, which is much more difficult for the Japanese because you know their medicine isn't where it is in allied terms. What's their actual strength there Jim?
- [56:44]
Expert
Well it's, you know, they've got three armies which on the face of it sounds like quite a lot. So they've got the 15th which is, you know, Mutaguchi's old patch, the 28th and the 33rd but they're all really badly under strength. So they've got 10 divisions in all which is not very many. Plus one badly reduced tank regiment, two mixed independent brigades. They've also then got lines of communication and admin troops, and they've got Subhas Chandra Bose's INA Indian National Army. But there's a sort of already a feeling that these probably can't really be relied on anymore. You know, they've got about 100,000 troops, you know, so it's not a lot. They've also got seven battalions of the Burma national army under Aung San, but huge doubts about them too. Only 30,000 fresh troops have arrived between June and October 1944. So most divisions have received about 2,000 fresh troops. But this means that pretty much all those divisions are well under 10,000 men, rather than the kind of 16,000 they should be. Supplies are a massive problem. Shortages of absolutely everything, and they're really sort of scratching their heads about how they're going to just sort of make this all work. So the stage is set for the final part, part of the Burma wartime drama with, it has to be said, huge amounts of stake for both sides.
- [57:52]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [57:52]
Expert
So that's it for episode one. And I think we both thought it was kind of important to set the scene, set the stage, do the backdrop, because I've always been slightly bemused by this sort of missing five months between July and 1944 and December, you know, what. What is going on? So I hope that's provided an explanation for that. But actually, in episode two, we're going to be looking at how slim strategy is evolving, but also mainly turning our attention back to the Arrow A Khan.
- [58:18]
Al Murray
Yeah, basically, there's a score to be settled.
- [58:20]
Expert
There most certainly is.
- [58:21]
Al Murray
Well, thanks for listening, everyone. Don't forget, you can subscribe to our Apple Channel as Officer class and get these without adverts and all in one go, or join our Patreon for livecasts, ticket offers and much else besides. My great uncle fought with the 10th Gloucesters at Pinway in part of this, alongside the Northern Combat Area Command. They were flown into Mitakinia as part of 72nd Division. And that's all part of this tumble of stuff that I think in people's imaginations it goes, if it's Dunkirk, D Day, Arnhem, in people, people's sort of sketch version of Northwest Europe. It's. I don't know. What is it? Infohima admin box.
- [58:57]
Expert
Yeah.
- [58:57]
Al Murray
And then the war ends the following August.
- [59:00]
Expert
Yeah, yeah.
- [59:01]
Al Murray
So we need to fill in some of the blanks, I think, a bit. But thanks everyone, for listening. We will see you all again very soon. Cheerio.
- [59:07]
Expert
Cheerio.