Al Murray (3:27)

Well, welcome to we have Ways of Making youg Talk, the second part of our short series about death at the mountains. The events at Montessolo in September of 1944. And Jim, in the previous episode, we laid out the origins of the partisan group, the Stella Rossa. We talked about their lack of political affiliation, their great success, their leader Lupo, but also with that comes the German decline in tolerance for such activity. Essential. And at the end of the last episode, we pointed out that the SS were now turning their attention to dealing with the Stella Rossa. And that account, I think, points us in the direction of the tragic events that are to follow.

James Holland (4:07)

Well, yes, and let me tell you a little bit about Cornelia Pacelli. And I have to say, of all the many hundreds of interviews I've done with veterans of the Second World War, the one I did with Cornelia in her flat in Bologna in 2005 is one of the ones that just stays with me with utmost clarity. It was the most extraordinary conversation. But we did talk a lot about. About her life beforehand and mountain life and what it was like being, you know, a sort of working class rural types in Italy at that time. And she and her family were very typical of. Of the folk living in that area at that time. She was 18 years old in 1944. She was born in the aforementioned Gardeleta we mentioned, that little village. Yeah, just south of Vardo on the Setter Valley, on the eastern side of the Montessori Massif. Although she'd been born in Cavaneziani, which is where the Muslesi family home was. You remember, that was. Lupo's family were forced out of their house and their house destroyed in Cavanaziani. And she also knew Gianni Rossi and Lupo and Sugano and the others in the Stella Rossa, all kind of like super localized. And her father, Virginia, worked on the railway, so he did have a tessera, because this is the fascist member card, because he has to for his job. But they're just, again, like a lot of people in these areas, they're very comsy. Com. So about. Or cosi. Cosi, as you would say in Italy, not political, doesn't follow any party. The Pizzelli family is a family of contadino, their contadini, rather, you know, these sharecropper farmers.

Al Murray (5:32)

Yeah.

James Holland (5:33)

And what tends to happen is the oldest son gets the farm and the younger son has to think of something else to do. So Virginia joins the railways, while his brother gets the family farm up in the mountains. And there's lots of farms all along the valley floor, but there's also a lot up in the mountains. And the interesting thing about the Montessori, massive, is it climbs quite sort of steeply to start off with, as it comes either side of the two rivers, and then it kind of sort of flattens out. So there's. It sort of. There's this sort of mountain plain where there are fields and you can farm and you could, you know, grow corn and have livestock and. And so on. And there's these little villages, these little hamlets and little settlements as well, and farmsteads where in a farmstead you'd have the main family farm, a few barns, maybe another couple of houses, something like that. So a handful of families living there. And then you have the peaks, you know, of Monte Soli, Monte Savare and so on, you know, heading along this massive. So that's how it works up there. There is Casalia, where there's a church, San Martino where there's a church. These are small little villages of maybe, you know, only 100 people, something like that. And Casalia and San Martino and Cipiano, they're all half a mile apart. A mile apart, something like that. I mean, it's like super close and tight. This is not a big area. And towering over them all are the twin peaks of Montessori, which is the tallest one in Montesalvare. And these are wooded slopes to the top of Montessoli. It's wooded, you know, so there's a track that you can go all the way. There's two tracks that go both sides of Montessori. You can walk all the way to the top of the Montessoli. And I remember walking up Montessoli for the first time. It was a May morning before breakfast. Suddenly it was this massive clatter and a wild boar just ran straight across in front of me. I nearly kind of jumped out of my skin as you can imagine, but that's the landscape. That's what it's like. Cornelia's uncle Giuseppe, he farms the land up there. And as children, they would have. They would have gone up there for feast days, you know, Pasqua, which is Easter, and Natale, which, of course, is Christmas. Various feast days. The 15th of August is a very big feast day in Italian culture, for example. So Cornelia leaves School at 14. She becomes an apprentice seamstress in Bologna, and she cycles daily from Cavernaziani, where the house is, to Vardo, and then takes a train to Bologna. But once the bombing begins by the Allies in 1943, her boss pleads of her to take her son back to live with her own family. And so Leandro is taken in by the pazolis, reluctantly, because it's another mouth to feed, because they're already quite a big, big family. Angelina, who is Cornelia's mother, has. Their eldest daughter is Cornelia. Then there's Giuseppina, who's 16, and then there are the twins, who are 10 or 12. So with Leandro as well, that makes seven in the entire household. And by June 1944, you know, rationing is pretty severe. And it's made worse because, you know, throughout northern Italy, because only about 70 to 75% of the prescribed rations are actually being distributed. And this, of course, is because of the lack of fuel and lack of transport and cuts to power, and because it's incredibly dangerous to be out on the roads during the day because of marauding Yarbos, you know, fighter bombers and Allied planes. But also because of Partisans, because Partisans are nicking it as well. You know, the Pizzelli family does okay. They have chickens and rabbits, and they've got a pet lamb as well. But these extras are definitely starting to dry up by the kind of back end of the summer of 1944.

Al Murray (8:44)

Yeah. And meanwhile, the Stellarossa have a dilemma, don't they? Because basically, they've been doing well. They've been having quite an effect. Although, as you said in the previous episode, the morale is fragile, or brittle is probably the right word for it. When it's going well, it's going well. But when it isn't, it's not brilliant. There's about 400 of them.

James Holland (9:01)

Well, you can imagine you're Carlo Venturi.

Al Murray (9:04)

Yeah.

James Holland (9:04)

You're sleeping in your cave one night and you're 18, and you wake up in the middle of the night and you suddenly think, what the heck am I doing? My parents don't even know if I'm alive. Or dead.

Al Murray (9:12)

Yeah. And also the whole thing's predicated on the Allies arriving soon. So the longer that takes, you know, we started in May, didn't we, with people joining and the summer's coming and the weather's good. And now we're into September and you're starting to look at another autumn and the weather tailing off and the Allies still aren't here. It must have in May, June, when Rome falls, it must just feel like it's a matter of days, a week, a fortnight if anything. But now you're into the autumn and he has 400 strong. They're split into battalions and companies, although not, as we have talked about battalions before. The battalions are eight to 100 people. Companies are smaller. So really his battalions are companies and his companies are platoons really, but that's how they're organizing themselves. And he calls his battalion commanders together on the 11th of September. And he's finally, the previous month in August, he's given in to the pressure from the political part of the resistance to allow political commissars from the clnar, the cvl, and Kuma because he wants support and he's compromised his merry band of free roaming, apolitical, get the Germans out by any means possible group. And he hates it because they're doing daily political chats. But it's the price he's got to pay. But he doesn't like it. His solution to this is to suggest that the commissars remain at brigade command, but the partisans with difficult political leanings could take the sort of political strain and act as commissars within their own battalions. Because obviously people may have joined his band for different reasons, politically themselves. So he's. Rather than let the it be top down, he's sort of letting it be kind of bottom up from his own movement.

James Holland (10:46)

Well, what he doesn't want is he doesn't want there's suddenly to be a communist battalion and suddenly. Okay, you know, because then they'll all start fighting amongst themselves. So he wants to try and keep it as apolitical as he possibly can. That's basically. And I think he's absolutely spot on about that.

Al Murray (10:57)

No, that's a very elegant solution, isn't it?

James Holland (10:59)

Yeah, but the big problem is, you know, he's trying to kind of create a sense of cohesion and unity, but they're getting short of arms.

Al Murray (11:06)

Yeah.

James Holland (11:06)

And unfortunately this is the all ruthless with partisans. They are in France. You know, either you're, you're useful to the Allies, in which case you'll get arms drops or you're not useful to the Allies, in which case you'll be hung out to dry. Yeah, that happens in France. It happens here as well, but it happens across Italy because the second front's opened and Operation Dragoon has taken place on the 15th of August. So now arms are needed to be dropped to southern French maquis as well. Yeah, and they've also decided that they're going to really focus on Tito's partisans in Yugoslavia, because there aren't any allied troops in Yugoslavia. So if you help the partisans do that, they're. They're doing the job of tying down German divisions there without getting them sent to the Allied front in Italy or the Western Front for that matter. So from a point of view of the Allies, Yugoslavian partisans are more useful to them than Italian partisans. Italian partisans are useful, but as ever with the Allies, it's a matter of choices and priorities. So the amount of supplies that are getting dropped to the Italian partisans is tailed off dramatically. Alexander has had this sort of massive call to arms at the beginning of June 1944, saying everyone should rise up in the north. They've done that and now they're being hung out to drop dry, is the truth of it. Yeah, it's a problem. They're getting low on ammunition because you're quite free with your ammo when you've got lots of it. You're not. You're not thinking, well, I better hold onto this, because you're just thinking, these arm drops are going to continue forever. And they don't. And then on the 17th of September, Kesselring issues his final warning to the Stella Rossa. This is specifically to them. And this is printed in the Bologna newspaper, Il Resto del Carlino. And he talks about the actions of bandits that can no longer be tolerated. And he goes, this battle vivat quarter for the destruction of banditry and delinquency must therefore be carried out by the ent Italian population. You know. So what he's basically saying is, you need to turn in all these guys and if you don't, we're going to treat you all as partisans. Yeah, that's basically what it is. And of course, the truth is the Partisans can only exist in the mountains with the tacit support of the locals. Yeah, same as Robin Hood.

Al Murray (12:59)

Yeah, the same as Robin Hood. And of course, that makes them very vulnerable to reprisal, doesn't it? Is the truth or vulnerable to a German tactic of reprisal? It's what you're going to Resort to if you're the Germans, isn't it? You're going to say, well, these people are dependent on the locals, so we're going to punish them via the locals. It's not a big leap of imagination to know that that's what's going to happen next, is it? But Lupo's attitude is the Allies are on their way. We're not going to quit right at the point of victory. No way. I mean, what do the partisans and the locals, because the front's closing in. What do they know about what's going on? This is the critical thing.

James Holland (13:32)

Well, almost nothing. You know, this is a point. A lot of it is just sort of guesswork and rumor mill and, you know, they can hear the guns going to, you know, from, from the south, getting closer. And someone sort of, you know, managed to get through Allied lines and says, oh, yeah, no, the Allies are coming. You know, they're on them on the march and all the rest of it. And, you know. But Cornelia Pe seeing ever more numbers of Allied bombers streaming over. Well, this is all part of the late summer assault on the Gothic line, you know, and the bombers going over, attacking the Brenner Pass again and hitting those, you know, German lines of supplies and deep in the rear and all the rest of it. Fifth Army's assault has begun. So the Gothic line, they're in the Gothic line. So the Gothic line is, you know, it's in depth, it's sort of 15 miles deep. So to the south of them, the battles for the Jioho and Futa passes is raging between the 13th and 21st September. And the allies do break through. So, you know, it's understandable that on Monte Solo they would think that the Allies are kind of almost upon them, because they literally are. And Stella Rossa are now pretty much all gathered up on around Monte Sole. And Kuma had even asked Lupo to take command of all partisans in the region to help liberate Bologna. And Lupo actually declines this. He feels it's too much responsibility and he wants to be standing shoulder to shoulder with the Allies, not with a bunch of, you know, bedraggled partisans. You know, he wants to enter the city as brothers and arms. This is his great big dream. This is his vision. This is the thing that's sort of sustaining him. And this is why he insists they all suddenly now draw in on the Montisoli massive. So deployment of them all is much easier. But of course, it's a high risk strategy because if the Germans launch A raster elemento. They're all sitting ducks because they're now low of ammo. It's not like the attack on 28 May when they were just flush with guns and they could see them off. And in actual fact, General Clark, who's the commander of 5th army, is continuing the pressure towards Bologna. Originally the main effort was towards Imola, but it's been raining a lot and on the Adriatic General Leese has made a complete hash of Operation Olive. And so the idea of 5th army and 8th army converging isn't quite so clear cut as it was in the pre battle plan. And because 8th army is now bogged down, Clark very sensibly decides to switch the main effort towards Bologna after all and use their control of the Jogo Pass and the Futa Pass as their main kind of axis further north. And this means that the U.S. 85th Division is pushing down Highway 65, which is the Seta Valley. This is the Seta Valley road with the Guards Armored Brigade and the sixth South African Armored Division along the mountain. So the Guards Armored is on the flank of, on the left hand flank of US 85th Division. And then the South African Armored Division, 6th South African Armored Division is along the mountains and up the Reno Valley on the other side of the Montessori massif. And by the 26th of September, the 6th South African Armored Division are in Castiglione di Pepoli, which is only 10 miles as the crow flies from Montessoli. So it is super close. And the road out of Castiglione di Pepoli then goes all the way up to, you know, San Martino and Kasalia and you know, those mountain villages. The South Africa's axis of advance is that same mountain road that goes all the way along the top.

Al Murray (16:28)

Not only can they hear the guns, they're effectively in range of them is the thing, aren't they, if they're 10 miles as the crow flies, yeah. However, on the other side of the Hill, 16th Avaffen SS Panzergrenadier Division have taken over this stretch, the front from the 362nd Infantry Division. So there are some aggrieved and angry Nazis in town and in reserve at Rio veggio with the 16th SS Recce Battalion is a unit that includes Hauptsturmfuhrer Wilfried Segebrecht. And Segebrecht keeps a diary.

James Holland (16:56)

He keeps a diary, yeah.

Al Murray (16:57)

And he sums up how Germans feel about partisans. They know that they're really, really keenly aware of them. In Italy, their attitude is They've got this thing to deal with at the front that's really, really difficult. And, you know, even if they get bogged down one place, they've got an answer somewhere else. They're keeping the pressure and momentum up on the Germans. They've got them in the vise and Sega, basically the last thing we need is partisans in our back. And he's heard that there's 2,000 partisans in the Stella Rossa.

James Holland (17:24)

Yeah. Because of course, everything's always exaggerated.

Al Murray (17:26)

Well, yes, Lupo's reputation is clearly worth 1800 men or something, or 1600 men. For us fighting troops on the Gothic Line, the question of supplies was a question of life. Without regular supplies of munitions and food and without the possibility of moving the wounded back, our positions against the Allies could not be held. So this strategic effect that the Stella Rossa are having, as far as Sagerbrecht is concerned, from his point of view, and it's, you know, bad enough that they're in their rear, but now the lines are pushing onto Monte Solo. They're actually, they're moving through as they retreat through part absolute copper bottomed partisan territory.

James Holland (18:01)

Yep. Either side of the mountains, you know, and they're on the top. Their access to the front is the Reno Valley and the Seta Valley and partisans are looking down on them. I mean, it's completely intolerable. Clearly. And Rio Veggio is only about 2 1/2 miles from Cardaletta.

Al Murray (18:14)

Amazing.

James Holland (18:15)

This is, you know, and three miles from Cavaneziani and maybe four miles from Vardo. They're there. They are. Right. You know, the Star Rossa are looking down on them effectively.

Al Murray (18:26)

Well, they're seeing. And they're seeing the Germans retreat. So they're seeing 362nd Division moving out. So they're seeing this ruined division.

James Holland (18:35)

Well, they think it's retreating. They're not retreating. It's just a changeover. But they're seeing these disheveled German troops, you know, I mean, the 362nd is not a good high quality. You know, this is full of Os battalions and whatnot. And, you know, these are troops in German uniforms rather than German troops. And they sort of stumbling back and they look absolutely awful. And, you know, the guns are booming only a dozen miles away. And they also, they capture the Stellarossa, capture a sack of German post where it's absolutely clear that morale is at rock bottom. There's huge complaints about Yarbo attacks, the weight of Allied firepower. There's plenty of complaints about Partisans as well, by the way. And of Course, word gets out about what is going on, that suddenly it feels like the front is moving. It feels like things are happening. And just imagine if you're a civilian in the. In the valleys below.

Al Murray (19:23)

Yeah, well, you think it's coming, isn't it? But also, you got to get out the way of what's coming, because the ally, if nothing else, the weight of Allied firepower is something to avoid. With that chat we had a while ago with Willems, wasn't it, about Koenigsberg, about Kaliningrad. You know that people are scared of shellfire. Forget that. The politics. They're not scared of anything apart from war. War is coming. So what are you gonna. What are you gonna do? You're gonna get out up into the mountains? Getting away from gunnery is a priority. It doesn't matter which side's doing it, right? There's a storm of steel coming, to coin a phrase. They want to get out of the way. So as a result, the Passelli family, Virginio Pacelli, says, right, okay, we're out of here. We're going up to the mountains. So he takes them all up to the village of Cipiano, which is.

James Holland (20:09)

It'll be safer in the mountains, even.

Al Murray (20:11)

Though the mountains are known to be full of partisans. But what choice have these people got? That's the other thing. What choice do you have when you can Hear the guns 10 miles, you know, less than 10 miles away, the thunder of it. You know exactly what's coming, and you know the Germans are going to fight.

James Holland (20:26)

You got no one to advise you. You can't ring up the local, you know, the local council and go, I'm in a bit of a. You are on your own. You. You can only make the decision that you think is the best with the very, very limited amount of information that you have. Yeah. So he takes them all up to Ciopiano, which is on a spur directly below Montessoli. And there. There is a nun called Sister Antoinetta Benny, and she's arranged refuge in a large church house known as Il Palazzo, belonging to one of the. It belongs to the Diocese of Bologna. And there's a whole load of other people. There's a lot of people there. And each of the families are given a single room. And Cornelia told me. She said everyone was calm, we all knew each other. I had with me a dress and a coat to sew. I thought I could use my time while we waited for the front to pass. There's a sort of sense of false security, I would say, in numbers. You know, they're not the only family that have made this decision to go up into the mountains. They've all have. And you know, well, it must be the right decision then, you know, because we've all done it. So what are the German plans? Well, they're pretty ruthless as you, you can imagine.

Al Murray (21:27)

Yeah, they've decided that they can't have trouble in their rear. So Kesselring knows about Stellarossa, but General Alfred Schlem, who's the officer commanding the 1st Falchenbjerger Corps, which includes 16th SS, he's like, well, we've got to do something about this. I can't. I can't try to deal with two problems at once. So he speaks to Gruppenfuhrer Max Simon, who's the officer commanding of 16th SS, says, Can you chuck me some spare troops? You need to get some spare troops, carry out an action against the Stellarossi. So the people he can spare are the Recce Battalion, 16th SS Recce Battalion under Sturmband Fuhrer Walther Raeder, who's a one armed veteran of the Eastern front. So I think we know what he might be like. They've already done. They're already involved in anti partisan operations. They're involved in an attack at Bardini Saint Terenzo in August where they captured and killed 159 civilians. So these people, they have form. It's as simple as that, isn't it? But Gruppen fear, Simon says, going to need more people for something this big. So Raeder's put in charge and he's given a platoon from the Panzer Regiment 36 for extra firepower and a battalion from an OST regiment, from 334 Infantry Division and Flat Regiment and 105. So it's a, it's a classic German drawing people in different people from different places with different track records and different backgrounds, but one clear aim, which is to sort these partisans out.

James Holland (22:46)

The planning of it is left to. At Obersturm Ban Fuhrer loos from the 16th SS Divisional Staff and his brief is absolutely clear. Clear the mountains entirely. From Grizzana Mirandi, which is on that road. You go from Castiglione di Pepole up to Montevigesi, and then you go to Grizzana Mirandi, which is a little sort of village. And that's on that road, on the mountain road that then leads up to Montessoli to Sasso Marconi, which is that village that we talked about when Carlo Venturi first splits from home. So basically the entire Montessoli massive, which is, as I said, is about kind of three miles like that or three miles by five, something like that. And Loose is helped by a fascist spy, a chap called Lorenzo Mingardi. So he knows that the mass of the Stella Rossa is now on and around Monte Soli and absolutely nothing is to be left to chance. There's going to be no repeat of the kind of 28th of May attack which is seen off. The attacks are going to, the troops are going to attack in a wide encirclement. So the idea is to cast a wide net either side of the valley, you know, both from the Seta Valley and the Reno Valley and just basically go up like that and just, just destroy everything and, and then converge at the top. But the main thrust is going to be coming from raider Walter Raeder's recce battalion. And Wilfried Sebrecht, who is the number one company commander, is fully briefed and he goes, this brigade is known as one of the most radical and fanatical with strong communist tendencies. He writes in his diary. And the partisans, they've been told, will be a mixture of British, us and even German uniforms and include Russian deserters. Hard and desperate battles which could be supported and strengthened by the resistance population are to be expected. And that's the key bit. The resident population supported and strengthened by the resident population. In other words, what they've been told is don't discriminate between partisan and civilian. They're all in it together. Kill the lot is basically the message. Yeah, you know, and it is not spelt out exactly, but they all know that's what they're being told to do, destroy everything. Then you haven't got a problem anymore.

Al Murray (24:47)

But you've had people from the Eastern front anyway where this is absolutely standard. They know all about partisans, they know all about partisans, they know exactly what that means. And strong communist tendencies is enough to set off any stout hearted German who's spent years of indoctrination about communism. So they're going to start at dawn on Friday 29th September. The Rasta Lamento will commence. Then two days prior to that, Cornelius sees Lupo and Gianni at Queen at Caprara. And she's gone to get some look for food and has some apples that she's bought. And Lupo said to her, so you're here, you're safe up in the mountains. So he seems to think things are going to be okay.

James Holland (25:23)

Yeah, he's, he's, he's confident to the last.

Al Murray (25:25)

Yeah, on the 28th, word reaches to Stellarosso that Lagaro is now in Allied hands. They're coming. They're only a few miles to the south of the Grisonda Mirande. Later that afternoon, Lupo disagrees with El Vecchio. And Vecchio worries that he thinks they're sitting down ducks, you know, that they're actually. They put their head in the noose, so to speak, and Lupo's being overconfident is what Ilvecchio thinks. And Lupo and Johnny. Then they want to go down to Cardotto. It's a farmstead halfway up the mountain overlooking the set of valley. But they decide we're going to stay. And Lupo, I mean, it's unbelievable. Lupo says, what's your problem? Let the Germans come. Legaro has already been freed, so he thinks the house of cards is about to fall in. He's not suspecting at all that there is a rush. Lamento coming one bit. And amazingly, Lupo and Gianni, they both have girlfriends at Cardotto and Leone. And one of the battalion commanders says, his wife, sir. So they go down to Cardato late that afternoon to see their partners. It's extraordinary. There is a picket. There are men on duty, squad of men are on duty, but they do stay the night with their wives and girlfriends.

James Holland (26:28)

Well, Ivecchio has been saying you should stay up here in the top of the mountains. We've got our brigade headquartered up here. Don't go down to Kidotto, you know, because if the Germans do come, then at least you can see and you can do something about it. And they go, nah, nah, that'll be fine, you know, but he does, you know, so Lupus sends out some guards and some pickets and stuff, but he's confident and he. And he wants to see his girlfriend. So there's a sort of, you know, Vecchia says, well, go and see them, but then come back. Come back at night and, you know, but it's. But it's dark and it's raining and they just think, what the heck, let's just. Let's stay where we were. They stay in Cadotto.

Al Murray (27:01)

Yeah. And in the next part, well, we'll get to what happens. I think the direction of travel. You might have figured out what's going to happen next. Join us for part two for the attack on Kadoto. Welcome back to. We have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland for. Well, the second half of our second part of Death in the Mountains. The story of what happened at Monte Sole at the end of the Italian war. And actually, it's the fact that there's a little bit to go, the fact that people think it's the end that is precipitated so much of what's going to happen, isn't it, Jim, this feeling that it's coming?

James Holland (27:36)

Well, yes, because actually Bologna doesn't fall until April 1944, and nor does Montessoli. The Guards Brigade are on Montessoli by November, something like that, I think, and they winter there. So the Germans start their attack at 5am they're on the start line. They've crossed the Seta. The OST Regiment is in place south of Marzabotto at Serpicarno. It's a little village as well as a bridge on the Reno valley side. The 16th SS Recce Battalion 5 and number 5 and number 1 companies are between La Quercia and Murazzi, and 3 and 2 companies are further along the valley. So basically they've got the whole stretch of the Monteconi between south of Vardo all the way to Quecha, which is a little hamlet just at the. At the bottom where there's a railway bridge.

Al Murray (28:20)

Yeah.

James Holland (28:21)

And they've all got their defined area where they're attacking. So the plan is to move up systematically and destroy everything. And Hauptsternfuhrer's Wilfried Segebrecht, who we've mentioned in the first half, his one company is attacking up towards the mountain village of San Martino and clearing farmsteads and partisans on the way. And so that means that Cadotto, where Lupo and Gianni and Leoni have been overnight, is literally one of the first farmsteads they come to. And they're there. They're Approaching Cadotto by 6am and it's raining. It's first light and the rain is creating very kind of sort of misty, hazy conditions up there on the mountains. I mean, you can just picture it, can't you? I mean, you know, shapes, ill def. Mind the looming sense of woods and trees and the mountains and, you know, I think the leaves still dripping with. With water and so on. I mean, I'm feeling tense just thinking about it.

Al Murray (29:09)

Well, if people want to picture exactly what. How this operation is going to work and in fact, think about Montessori, it is worth. It is worth popping onto Google Maps or onto Google Earth and having a look, because the challenges of this whole thing just lay themselves bare. If you go and look at the map.

James Holland (29:25)

Well, I've sent you some maps. You can see where Cadotto is on the first one. You know, it's all super, super close.

Al Murray (29:31)

Yeah. And that is actually the thing I think is really striking about this, is how small this area is, really, and how while the terrain worked for the partisans when they were trying to harass German traffic on the railway line and so on, while they were doing that, the terrain worked very well for them. It's now where they are is working completely against them, is the truth. Once they're short of ammunition.

James Holland (29:52)

But you can see from the map how comparatively close Cadotto is to the Seta Val.

Al Murray (29:57)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

James Holland (29:58)

You know, compared to San Martino and Casalia and stuff, you know, this is on the lower of the slopes.

Al Murray (30:03)

Yeah, it's that thing that now they have no ammunition, or right now they're lower on ammunition. They don't have the sort of freedom of movement that they had. And also the start of the season, they were into it, they hadn't been undermined politically and all this sort of stuff. And here they are now with this is a much more serious effort by the Germans than the one they faced earlier in the summer.

James Holland (30:22)

So there's a lone guard on the track, but the patrols that Lupo had ordered, they're nowhere to be seen. SCENE They've buggered off, basically. They're with their own girls or they've just taken. Probably they're taking shelter because it's raining, but anyway, the guard spots figures and he fires two shots and then killed by a volley of fire that starts to wake everybody up. There's the main house at Cadotto. Then there's the stables. Parsons in the stable below the main house, they're woken up first, and two partisans, Reno and colonello, open the stable door and charge out sea. Whole load of German troops only 20 yards away, you know, these sort of gray figures in the. In the mist and the. And the rain. And Reno is hit but not killed, but he's wounded. And colonello manages to fire a magazine of his Sten gun and the Germans pull back a little bit, but with the rest of the BAR now opening fire, the battle has begun, basically, and everyone is now awake. And Gianni Rossi is in the main house and he opens the front door and is met with a burst of machine gun bullets that effectively slices Leone's wife in half. So she's dead. There's a pause and Janny shouts out, and colonello replies that they seem to be completely surrounded. And Janny says, do what you can and we'll try and get to the Command post. And colonello says, but we're surrounded on all sides. You won't be able to make it. And in the farmhouse, pandemonium, as you can imagine, you know, Lupo's raging around about the lack of patrols going, well, you know, where the hell are they? How on earth have we been caught short? But his anger is clearly directed at his own foolishness. You know, he knows that he's cocked up and so he's sort of hurling the blame at others. Jebbers are setting up machine guns. They're firing tracer rounds into the barn, which then catches fire. Lupo and Gianni rush to the top of the house and look out, and they can see Jermaine. German troops pushing on up the slopes either side of Cadotto, towards a place called Steccola and up towards the brigade headquarters at Pronaro di Sopra, which is sort of between the Church of Casalia and San Martino, just further up the mountains to the north. And Gianni says to Lupa, look, I think, you know, and Leone, I think we should make a dash for it. You know, the light is dim, it's raining. They know the mountains, the Germans don't. And frankly, they don't have really any choice.

Al Murray (32:22)

Yeah.

James Holland (32:22)

So the three of them go from a door in the house to the hay loft next to it, and then they jump into a ditch facing a little Caterminae. It's like a farm farmhouse just above Cadotto, and they run for it. And Gianni is ahead of the other twos when they're spotted and they can hear someone shout out. There's a crack of rifle fire. Gianni's hit in the elbow, but he still manages to turn around and fire back, as does Lupo and Leone. And three Germans are dropped to the ground. It's not very far to the COVID And this area here, you have the little. This little open ground around Cadotto and Catermane, but the trees and the shrub are really pretty close. This is, you know, what are we talk about, like, maybe 150 yards. They've got to cover something like that. And there's more firing from the Germans. And Janny's hit again in the other arm, and he falls over into the mud and bullets are whistling over his head. And Leone and Lupo collapse beside him. And Gianni goes, I can't go on. And Lupo says. And it, you know, says stay tranquillo, which means in Italian, means stay calm. Gianni kind of pauses a bit. He managed to get to his feet. They're running blindly, he managed to reach the trees and suddenly the firing stops immediately after. But he can't see Lupo or Leone, and he thinks, where the hell are they? But. But there's some other partisans there. There's a partisan patrol who help him up to Catermene and where his wounds are dressed. And he's able to rest for a while, but there's still no sign of Leone or Lupe, doesn't know where they are. You know, it's all kind of. You can imagine, can't you? You know, it's absolutely pell mell. You don't know what's going on. There's shots firing out, there's a rain, you know, you're wounded, et cetera, et cetera. But it's absolutely clear that the Germans have been very badly hit too. And Wilfried Segebrecht is just below Cadotto and he's tending. A sergeant's been hit in the chest and blood is pumping from the wounds. And he literally sees this guy die in his arms. He can't save him. One of his junior officers is killed too, and he'd only joined a few days earlier. And, you know, there's big firefights going on, and colonello is amazing. He's still holding out. And Il Vecchio are fighting in another farmstead further up at Cadedirino, and Segebrecht is actually quite cautious because he doesn't know the ground, he doesn't know what his enemy is. He doesn't know that they're low on ammunition. All he knows is that they've got machine guns and submachine guns and a few grenades and that's it. So they haven't got heavy weapons and he doesn't want his men to be killed, so he's actually holding off a bit. So the firefight at Kidotto has got quite a long way to run at this point. But by this time, the rest of the Germans are slowly kind of moving up the mountain slopes, burning, setting fire to farmsteads and rounding up the women and children. And of course, course, that includes Cornelia Pizzelli and her family. So you can imagine how terrifying it must have all been.

Al Murray (35:00)

Yeah, well, the kry. Her father says, wake up, wake up. The Germans are burning houses. It's not safe here. Go take refuge in the church. And the description at the start of this episode is from Cornelia's memory of what happened in. In the church. And you'd think that's a safe place to go.

James Holland (35:15)

Well, no, that's the Cemetery. That's the cemetery, which is 100 yards, 75 yards from the church.

Al Murray (35:21)

No, but my point is, you think you'd go to. You'd go to a church sanctuary in a church. These are people who take church seriously. They're not going there to attract attention to themselves. The civilized people respect churches, no matter what the Nazis might be like. You go to the church, you'll be safe. So she goes with her mother, her younger sister and the younger twins. They're all hurried up along the track and it's not far. There's an aunt and cousins with them. They can hear shooting and see fire and smoke. They get to the church at 8 o' clock in the morning. They do what you would do in the set of circumstances that they pray. They all pray. An hour later, there's loud knocking on the door. It's German troops shouting. There's 202 people in all. The rain has stopped. They're huddled outside the church. There's seven or eight Germans from Hauptsturm, Fuhrer's Schmidkunst, 3 company, number 3 company. And they go and talk to the priest. Cornelia watches them talk to the priest, Donobaldo, and she doesn't understand German, but she gets the gist. The Germans have found a cache of arms at Cadizola, which is a farmstead between Casali and Ch Ciapiano. And this was where the 4th Battalion of the Stella Rossa have been, but they've slipped away. Now, of course, the Germans have been told civilians are part of the insurgency, they're organic to the insurgency. So she might think, well, you know, we're okay because we're obviously civilians. But the Germans are under pressure, they're in a hurry, they're barking orders and they're scaring people. Don Al Baldo, the priest, tries to reason with them. And then they're stopped near the cemetery, which is 100 yards or so from the church. A German smashes in the lock of the gate of the cemetery with the butt of his rifle. Another stands guard with a submachine gun. And it starts to rain again. Jim, this is. This is awful.

James Holland (36:56)

Well, just imagine what it was like listening to Cornelia telling us this story she told us, I have to say, she sat there telling us this story with just no emotion whatsoever. You know, she was in her 70s at this point, and she had time to process this, she could talk about it. And that was her point. In the opening bit that we read out at the start of the episode, she said it's not like me telling you this. Now, this was a different. You know, when I was there, I was thinking in a different way. It was like she just, dunno, kind of sort of emotionally switched off something so that she could tell us.

Al Murray (37:28)

You had an interpreter with you, right?

James Holland (37:29)

Yeah, I had one of my great, great mates from Durham with me. Roddy. And Roddy was. Was translating, and he was just. He was just going, jeez, what she's saying. And he said, a couple. Okay. So she just told me this, and I'm just sort of going, oh, it was just. And actually, it was very useful in that circumstance. It was very useful having a translator because it allowed me to process what she was saying and think about what to ask her next. Yeah, so the. The break that the translation allowed me was, was it was just incredible. And anyway, you know, I recorded it all, then had it all properly recorded in Italian then properly translated, so.

Al Murray (38:02)

So the two guards are left for the people at the cemetery, while the others go back towards the church with the priest. 20 minutes pass, and Cornelius thinking about getting away. Her mother's crying. Cornelia says there's only one reason to open the gate. I said to myself, this is the end. There was no reason otherwise for them to have opened the gate. I kept thinking, if only I could move a few meters, I could jump and hide myself.

James Holland (38:23)

They hear a single shot, and that is Don Ubaldo being killed.

Al Murray (38:26)

So the Germans then return without the priest, and they're shouting, raus, raus. Ushering them into the cemetery. Cornelius says there was an old lady with an umbrella, even gave her an arm to help her inside.

James Holland (38:36)

I mean, can you believe it? Can you believe it? She said, I can picture this now. They literally took her elbow and helped her across the threshold of the cemetery. And this cemetery is walled, so the walls, I guess, are maybe 8ft high, something like that. And inside there is a. There's a tiny little chapel. It's really small. Little stone chapel. It's not big at all. And lots of sort of metal crosses. And they were told to go in there and line up against the far end of the wall. And I guess, you know, it's sort of tennis court size, something like that. You know, it's really, really not big. This is just a little village cemetery. That's all it is. You see these walled cemeteries all over the place in this part of Italy.

Al Murray (39:11)

It's quite clear on Google Maps. It's marked out with its walls. You could see it right there still to this day. And now we're at the Point of the start of the episode that Cornelia described to you. So there's been a grenade thrown into the crowd.

James Holland (39:26)

Yes. And this has concussed Cornelia and blown her into the centre. So this actually saves her because she's concussed but she's not wounded. And as machine guns open up, she's still on the ground. So the bodies start falling on top of her and blood is spreading all over her body. And she said, I immediately thought this is other people's blood, but what if they've shot me and I haven't felt it at this point. She then faints and when she comes to, more bodies are piled all around her and she can hear voices and she can hear her mother going, cornelia, Cornelia, are you still alive? And Cornelia goes, mama, be quiet, please, please don't talk, otherwise they'll kill you. And her mother goes, the twins are dead. The twins are dead. You know, she's absolutely distraught. She'd been holding the twins to her. So she's had a row of machine gun bullets has gone across Angelina's legs, Cornelia's mother, but her thighs are the height of her twins chests, so that has killed them. And Cornelia says again, please, Mama, don't talk. And her mother then calls out to Cornelia's sister, Giuseppina. But then another shot rings out and Giuseppina then begins to cry and she goes, my head, my head, I'm hurt. And again Cornelia urges them be quiet. And then her sister calms down. The bullet has only grazed her head. And they then wait there for a long time, several hours. And Cornelia is just listening. She just doesn't dare move an inch or barely breathe. And not until about 4 o' clock that afternoon. Bear in mind this is happening about 9:30 in the morning does she feel it's safe to move. So she's been there well over six hours. And she said to me, dead bodies are really heavy. But eventually I managed to free herself and she was totally, completely drenched, top to foot, her hair, her skin, everything, her whole career. Clothes drenched in blood. And she just didn't know what to do. So Gigi and Maria, the twins were dead. Her mother's legs had been nearly, you know, been shot across. There was no one around. Her sister was traumatized and bleeding badly. With her bullet graze, Cornelia managed to lift her mother and lean her against the wall. And then using some of the material that she'd had to do her sewing, she ripped it up and tore tourniquets around the legs of both her mother's legs, which undoubtedly saved her from a much earlier death. And then she said, I'm going to try and try and get help. And she heads towards Serpiano, but she sees troops around, so she hurries down the other side of the valley to guard a letter instead, and she's barefoot. And unfortunately, the massacre at the cemetery has been repeated all over the mountains, in the villages and hamlets and farmsteads, and they are being systematically cleared, men, women, children, herded into barns and shot or burns. And another guy I got to meet was a guy called Francesco Barini, and he'd been 17 at the time, and his family had lived in the same house in Gardeleta since 1770. When I met him, he still lived there, and I went there and met him at his house, beautiful house. And they had also headed up into the mountains at the very end of August, and Francesco had tried to escape to Monte Soli the previous morning, because he was 17. His family said it's the young men and the older teenagers that they're going to be after, so head to the mountain. So he'd try and go, but he couldn't get away in time. So he was. He was hiding in some sort of woods, a little bit of woods and thick shrubs, shrubbery, close to Ciopiano. And he watched as the troops then spread through the village, clearing all the houses, including the nine members of his own family, who were then led to Circiano's chapel, which is tiny. And then he sees a soldier lob in a single grenade and hears a whole load of screams. But most of them in the chapel are still alive, including Sister Antoinetti. Bene. But troops are guarding them and they guard them all day. And Francesca's kind of frozen to spot the whole of that day, the 29th of September, watching it all, just doesn't dare move, move. And all the rest of that day and into the night, the guards are continuing to watch the chapel, and he just doesn't feel he can move from where he is. And there's 49 Italian civilians inside. But meanwhile, the battle at Cadotto is also over by the evening, but a number of the partisans have managed to escape, but those who haven't, obviously, are all killed, and that includes a number of civilians, including Leone's wife. But as I said earlier, Vilfi's Segrebrecht has lacked the heavy weapons, and so he does withdraw his troops in the evening. And this gives Colonel Cornello, who's still alive, and a few others A chance to escape.

Al Murray (43:27)

Yeah, yeah.

James Holland (43:28)

Cornelia, meanwhile, reaches Gardeletta and sees German, so then goes to the family home in Caverneziani, but it's locked, of course, as it was being had when they left. So she goes to the farm a few hundred yards away, where they got milk and where they'd left their pet lamb, and that they find the lamb dead, but also the farmer and wife killed as well. And at this point, having kept calm all day, she finally loses the plot.

Al Murray (43:50)

What? God, this incident, it is. It is interesting that it's not better known, Jim, because this has got all the elements of all the stories we. You know, that you said it's Orador Ludici, you know, it's got all those elements in it. And yet. And yet, yes, the Italian theaters are forgotten or a neglected theater, but this is as appalling and dramatic and tragic and brutal as anything, anything, anywhere. Right. It's extraordinary.

James Holland (44:13)

Yep. And up on Montessoli, which, from Montessori you can look down on the side. So Virginio, Cornelia's father, has been wandering through the scrub, deranged with grief. He'd seen it all, and he tried to persuade the partisans to do something because they'd seen them being marched down the road from the. From the church. He says, this is what's going to happen. We've got to do something. We've got to do something. The partisans go, it's impossible. We just can't, you know, we'll all get killed. So he sees the massacre and he sees that mountain community, which he's known all his life, being destroyed. Yeah. And at midnight, he scrambles down and goes to the cemetery, but by this point, it's locked up again. The Germans have locked the gate. And he thinks they're all dead. All he can just see in the. In the moonlight are these bodies. And in fact, actually Giuseppina is alive and is tending his wife at that point, who is now, by this point, slipping in and out of consciousness. So Virginia thinks they're all dead and slips back into the night. He's absolutely losing his mind. And this terrible day for this. This centuries old community, it's just horrendous. But the next day, Saturday, the 30th of September, it's not over. Angelina Pizzelli is lying, dying. She tells her daughter Giuseppina that she dreamed her husband had been there. By this point, she's increasingly fretful during her conscious moments and calling out for Cornelia. And Giuseppina goes, no, you know, Papa wasn't here, you know, he wasn't here, but he had been. And it's not clear whether it was just a dream and she just imagined it or whether she really had seen his face in the.

Alistair Campbell (45:32)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

James Holland (45:34)

I just. Oh, it's just. It's so heartbreaking. It's just. It's just. It's so upsetting. But Cornelia is alive. She'd wandered aimlessly and then waded across the setter. And as she's wading across, shots ring out and hit the water. But she calls out and cries for help. And one of her father's colleagues appears and hurries her into a hut in the woods, says, God, just keep out of the way, shut up, you know, and they won't. And Cornelia begs them to help her, but they won't. They go, absolutely no way. We're not leaving here. We're not going to let you go either. So they say, stay the night and the morning will go and help. But the following morning, they're back, you know, they're back clearing it out, combing through the mountain, setting fire to remaining houses. Gianni Rossi is still alive, actually, but still no sign of Lupo. And Gianni is now on Monte Salvaro. His wounds are serious, but they're not life threatening. The troops have also returned to Ciopiano. So Francesco Perini is still stuck in the woods and he's still got his eyes on the chapel. And then more troops, German troops arrive, and the door of the chapel is open and all of them are gunned down. So he sees them just open up with a machine gun at the hip and boom, that's it. And then the men go to the schoolhouse and start playing the piano. And he's just sat in this shrub, clutching his head, you know, having witnessed nine members of his family being killed. And then he hears these tones of the piano sort of trilling out over the air. I mean, can you imagine it? And it's not until Tuesday 3rd October, that Cornelia is finally allowed to leave the hut. So she hurries up to Cirpiano and sees someone scavenging for food. It's a young girl who's covered in blood. And she goes, cornelia, is that you? And Cornelia hurries over and learns that Giuseppina is still alive, but that her mother had died two days earlier on the 1st of October. So, you know, and this is the awful thing is because the tourniquet, that would have probably saved her, you know, she probably. Something could have been done but maybe, maybe she didn't really want to survive after this, I don't know. But anyway, she finds a sister and they go to a refuge in San Mamante, which is a farmstead a few miles to the north. And a week later their father finds them. And Cornelia says, you know, when he saw us, he laughed and cried of pain and of happiness, but he seemed a different person. He said it was painful. I really suffered seeing him like that. And he told them that he was going to try and find some food and left them. But no sooner did he did that, he was picked up by the Germans troops and press gang into the organization Top God. And a few months later he died too, from exhaustion and broken heart, you know, so 772 people are killed over the three days on Montesoli, which, you know, in terms of numbers that trumps ladici and orador. 191 killed in the cemetery at Cassalia, all civilians. And actually, I knew an officer in the Royal Natal Carboneers, a guy called Kendall Brook, and he told me he never, when I interviewed him, he'd never heard of the Montessori massacre. And he said, yeah, it was really horrible. We were on this road, we were approaching this village called San Martino, which had been destroyed, and he said, we came across this barn and there were loads of rotting bodies in there, including pregnant women. And that was. That was in a barn at San Martino.

Al Murray (48:33)

God.

James Holland (48:34)

216 partisans killed. Two thirds of those on Montessoli to Stella Rosso was finished. But if you think about it, you know, that's less than half.

Al Murray (48:42)

Yeah.

James Holland (48:43)

So most of them are able to get away because they know where to go, know they know their targets, so they know to kind of run a mile. They know that hiding in a church isn't going to cut it. And, you know, Germans aren't going to go up to the top of Montessori and they're not going to go out to the Monte Salvare, you know, they're just not. And Gianni manages to sneak through to the Allied lines and packed off to hospital. And later he joins Italian forces attached to the Allies and does help liberate Bologna, just as Lupo had imagined. But of Lupo there is absolutely no sign of at all.

Al Murray (49:13)

And we'll come to Lupo another time.

James Holland (49:16)

We will come to Lupo. Yeah. What happens to him?

Al Murray (49:18)

Yeah, it's a great success for the Germans, isn't it? They've knocked out the Stellar Rossa, so they haven't got that problem in their rear as they prepare to Defend Bologna, there's 174 buildings destroyed, 7ammo dumps destroyed, papers, reports, passwords, typewriters, printing press is discovered and captured. 315 cows are taken, 14 horses as well. And Sega Brecht East. I mean this quote is. Well, I don't know, it's unbelievable. It also feels quite relevant, doesn't it? The battles were made much more difficult due to the malicious methods used by the partisans, such as shooting from ambush positions from holes in cellars, haystacks, dugouts and caves. Some of these places were partly occupied by women and civilians, even by children, in order to trick us into believing they were harmless. I mean, haystacks occupied by women and children.

James Holland (50:01)

Well that's just nonsense. It's a house. Malicious methods of partisans shooting from ambush positions. I mean, you know, it's a war. Since when is hiding and shooting have been, you know, malicious? I mean, you know, it's of course it's malicious. It's a war.

Al Murray (50:15)

When you've people so brutalized the German army, the Wehrmacht and the ss, you know, we're four, we're five years into their Europe wide brutalization. As they take, they took put Europe to the sword and scorched earth everywhere. It is this thing. The Eastern front is the norm, the western front is, is the exception. And so when the east methods from the east visit the west, they feel extra shocking, don't they? It's perhaps part of what's happening here.

James Holland (50:41)

Yeah. Also, but I think it's sort of because this is Italy and, and Italy is the place of the Renaissance and, and it's the place of Florence and the Duomo and you know, Tuscany and, and Venice and you know, all that amazing art and Botticelli and, and, and Michelangelo and sophistication and, and this beautiful food and amazing wine and you know, these are on our doorstep and this doesn't happen here. And yet it does with that.

Al Murray (51:06)

The Germans are the most cultured people in Europe as well. You know, that's the thing that's always the question mark about how does that happen in the. Supposedly the most advanced and clever country in the, in Europe. This last half of this episode I found absolutely harrowing, personally. Harrowing. It's unimaginable for me.

James Holland (51:25)

I find it incredibly upsetting setting. I must just tell you, I'll just end on this thing. I know we're going to talk about this a little bit in the, the next Wash up episode, but I first went there in May 2005 and I got there on an afternoon I was on my own. And it's May, you know, this is, this is a time of birdsong, right? And this, this is an era where birdsong should be plentiful. Not a bird, you couldn't hear a single sound. And I walked up to Casalia and I got into the cemetery. I'd already interviewed Cornelia at this point, so I knew her story. And there was the sound cemetery. And as I got there, there was an old man delivering a. A reef, a green, white and red reef, Italian flag. He asked me what I was doing there and I said, well, I've come to kind of pay my respects. And my, my very, very broken Italian. He was really, really touched. And he said no one remembers much outside of here. And then he left and drove off in his little Fiat. And I was left alone in that, in that spot. And the sun was shining. It was most beautiful, gorgeous afternoon. I looked out of his valley. You could see the set of valley from that sun, side of the mountains, Montessoli above me. And I went into the. I went into the cemetery. The bullet holes are still there. There's metal crosses where you can still see the holes from that moment. It's just unbelievable. And I should also say that Casalia, the church is a complete room. I mean all those villages, Ciopiano, Casalia, San Martino, ruins. It's like San Pietro, they've just gone. They've gone forever. Never rebuilt, never. No one ever lived there again. It's. It's a haunting, haunting place. And more so because it's so beautiful. It's absolutely got me there. And it's the reason why I write a lot about civilians in the war is because of that. It's because it's not military history. This is history of war that we're talking about, that you and I talk about when we talk about this. We do talk about military history, but it's conflict. And conflict, when it's in a built up area like Italy or France or anywhere or Ukraine, affects civilians. And it becomes a story of every, everybody and that he just really, you know, I was young in my career then and I didn't know anything about anything. And it just absolutely struck with me. And the fact that I was lucky enough to interview Johnny Rossi. Carlo Venturi also escaped. Incidentally, Gastoni Scargi, Francesco Perini Janny, of course, it was just amazing. This tough old guy who'd been the second in command of the study Rossa and of course Cornelia. Oh my God. I mean, this stuff doesn't leave you, you know, it is absolutely there like it was yesterday in a way that other interviews have come and gone. This is a very personal story to me.

Al Murray (53:51)

Well, thanks for sharing it with all, all of us, Jim. We are going to return to this a little in our next episode, which will be because in a way what you want to do is have a think about this and come back to it actually.

James Holland (54:02)

Well, and that's what we're going to do.

Al Murray (54:04)

That's exactly what we're going to do. Anyway, thanks everyone for listening. Thanks James, for taking us through that extraordinary and awful story. We'll see you again very soon. Cheerio.

James Holland (54:11)

Cheerio.

Alistair Campbell (54:17)

Alistair Campbell here from the Rest Is Politics. Now we've just released a series on one of the most controversial and consequential people of the past 50 years, Rupert Murdoch.

Matt Forde (54:28)

I think you can argue that he is the most consequential figure of the second half of the 20th century. He holds power longer than anyone else in our time and it's meaningful power. It's phenomenal power.

Alistair Campbell (54:43)

Power without responsibility. The prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages. This is where he becomes not just a newspaper owner, he becomes a major newsmaker.

Matt Forde (54:52)

Fuck Dacre publish. There is always a premium on bringing him gossip.

James Holland (54:59)

I don't know what you mean by down market and upmarket.

Matt Forde (55:01)

They're just so English.

James Holland (55:02)

Class ridden snobbery. When you talk like that, how you.

Matt Forde (55:05)

Get it doesn't make any difference. Actually to be perfectly honest, whether it's true or not doesn't make much difference.

Alistair Campbell (55:11)

There is a massive, massive scandal brewing. This was industrial illegal activity. And that I think is what really cuts through to the public thinks. You people are really, really bad.

James Holland (55:24)

I would just like to say one sentence. This is the most humble day of my life.

Matt Forde (55:29)

There is no Donald Trump without Fox News. His dream was always to elect a president of the United States. The bitter irony is that that turned out to be Donald Trump, a man he detests. He is conquering the world. There is nothing less than this methodical, step by step progress to take over everything.

Alistair Campbell (55:55)

To hear more, just search the Rest Is Politics. Wherever you get your podcasts.