← WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
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- [00:02]
Al Murray
Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams, and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com wehaveways.
- [00:24]
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- [00:54]
James Holland
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- [01:17]
Al Murray
Equivalent to $15 per month required new.
- [01:19]
James Holland
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- [01:36]
Al Murray
Gatorade is it in you? Watch out there buddy. Watch out there buddy. Welcome to we have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. And in a strange way it's episode three, but part two, isn't it, Jim?
- [01:59]
James Holland
Yes, because we've got to the Americans now.
- [02:01]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's best in the west, of course. And you probably know by now how this works, but if you don't, here's a brief summary for we have ways Fest on the 12th, 14th September. What we thought we'd do is finally drive a stake through the heart of this endless arguing about which general's better and come up with a definitive answer on that exact question. Isn't that right, Jim? Yeah, because you know, so much time that could be spent on other historical aspects of the Second World War is burned off with people having these weird arguments where they disagree about which generals are best in the Second World War on different sides. So very simply, what we thought we'd do is first of all discuss it amongst ourselves, then put it on our Patreon for people to vote, decide, discuss and finally settle the question. Because, I mean, you know, if people are arguing about this, how are they going to argue whether spitfire mark one is better than me? 109.
- [02:53]
James Holland
Yeah. And the bottom line is, you know, this is obviously definitive.
- [02:55]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [02:56]
James Holland
And the exciting news is that overnight, since we were last recording, Howard Alexander has gone into top place than the British ones. He's a percentage point ahead.
- [03:04]
Al Murray
How many bogus accounts are you using today?
- [03:06]
James Holland
Dick McCreary still got.
- [03:11]
Al Murray
I mean, what are you gonna do, Jim? Are you. Have you actually set up a click farm in Sri Lanka where you've got lots of people clicking on Alexander? Is that what's going on? But this episode, these next two are about. Are noble allies in the coalition against evil, against Adolf Hitler. And you know how this works. Basically, we've got 14 names in the. Thrown into the. Into the helmet.
- [03:35]
James Holland
So we're gonna rattle through seven, aren't we, to start off with in this episode. And then another seven, and then that's the Americans done. And at the end of it, we'll have a top three.
- [03:43]
Al Murray
So where do we start? And these are in alphabetical order, by the way. Not in order of preference, though. It was weird how Alex was so high in the. Could have done them from when they were born, of course, but no, we're alphab.
- [03:56]
James Holland
He could have done it on first.
- [03:57]
Al Murray
Names, in which case this fellow would be lower down the list because our first American general, this is one of the biggies, actually. Yet in a strange way, I think somebody's often not overlooked because he's always in the mix, but he sort of really get. Actually gets assessed because he's just sort of part of how things happen. And that is General Omar Nelson Bradley.
- [04:18]
James Holland
He's the man who kind of looks a bit like Marlon Brando in the Golf of. He sort of looks like he's got cottonwell stuff down his front lip.
- [04:23]
Al Murray
Yes, he does, doesn't he? Just rarely a smile, really.
- [04:26]
James Holland
Occasionally.
- [04:27]
Al Murray
Occasionally. I mean, what's interesting is he is a product of the U.S. army as the sort of American, kind of American dream thing where it lifts people out of their background.
- [04:36]
James Holland
Yeah.
- [04:36]
Al Murray
And gives them an opportunity to shine. Which is interesting about the US army in this period of history. So he's born in 1893.
- [04:44]
James Holland
Meritocracy.
- [04:45]
Al Murray
Exactly. Son of a schoolteacher. He's from Moberly, Missouri, briefly works as a boilermaker. That's right, yeah. You know, isn't that interesting?
- [04:53]
James Holland
He's been there, done it. He's got the oil on his fans.
- [04:55]
Al Murray
Yeah. And then gets a place at West Point. And he's in this. There's the class of 1915, the class of stars fellow. Yeah. And two graduates reach five star general, two a four star seven three star lieutenant generals, 24 two star major generals, 24 brigadiers.
- [05:13]
James Holland
Shut the front door.
- [05:14]
Al Murray
Yeah. And it includes Bradley.
- [05:16]
James Holland
Eisenhower.
- [05:17]
Al Murray
Yep, Eisenhower. I think what's interesting about it's on the cusp of America's entry into the First World War and it's full of people who are really, really ambitious and really, really, really, really good.
- [05:26]
James Holland
Yeah. Doesn't see service in the First World War, does he?
- [05:28]
Al Murray
I know he has, he has a very weird career. You know, he does very well at West Point. He goes into the infantry in 1915 and his job is to guard copper mines in Montana. Yeah, imagine.
- [05:37]
James Holland
Yeah, it's amazing. But he stays in the army after the war. He sees service, you know, within the US but also Hawaii.
- [05:43]
Al Murray
Does it.
- [05:43]
James Holland
He's an instructor at the Infantry School, Fort Benning where he serves under George. Yes, that's important link. He's then an instructor at West Point and he then graduates from the Command and General staff School in 1934, in the Army War College in 1938. And that's sort of a bit like being the Imperial War College over in the UK. It's marking you out, you know, so. So 1941, he's only a colonel, but he's recognized as a highly skilled trainer of troops and as a kind of, you know, deep thinker on tactics and stuff. So he's all marked out the American army in 1941. You know, no one, none of them have been tested really. This is the thing, you know, someone who makes a good peacetime officer doesn't necessarily make a good combat officer.
- [06:23]
Al Murray
No, but what he then does is he. And he's done the Civilian Conservation Corps thing at the end of the 30s where it's been involved in training civilians to sort of undertake park maintenance and all that sort of stuff. So he's had contact with the American public rather than necessarily just with soldiers, which is going to serve him well when civilians start coming into the army in large amounts after the Americans bring in the draft. And I think what's really interesting is he's then commandant of the infantry school at Fort Benning and then he's given 82nd Infantry Division. Right. And he radicalizes how Fort Benning's done. He irons it out. He standardizes the training because you've got in the South You've got regiments being raised by colonels in the sort of traditional Southern style where it's the local boss hog type person who puts together his own battalions or whatever. And he irons this out and he takes on 82nd Infantry Division and trains them up. Then they're taken away to be made into Airborne because that's a mark of how well organized he's got them and how good they are. And he's sort of troubleshooting really, isn't he? So.
- [07:17]
James Holland
Because he gets sent over to North Africa, doesn't he?
- [07:18]
Al Murray
He. Yeah, that's right. Under Ike.
- [07:20]
James Holland
Yep.
- [07:21]
Al Murray
As advisor to George S. Patton. I mean, imagine giving him advice. Yeah, I'm not sure that's a good idea.
- [07:30]
James Holland
Yeah, exactly. Where are those goddamn aircraft?
- [07:33]
Al Murray
And so on? And then he takes over command of two core from Patton.
- [07:37]
James Holland
Well, yes, because Patton gets brought in after Fredendall is sacked after Kasserine Parson in the middle of February 1943. So he is then, you know, reinvigorating two corps throughout March, but then gets sidelined because he is going to be overall commander, American commander for the invasion of Sicily and needs to be, you know, he can't be doing two things at once. So that's when Bradley is given his chance. And so for April and capture BIZERTA and Hill 609 and all the rest of it, it is Bradley who is commanding two corps and he does a really good job. And he takes two corps into. Into the Allied invasion of Sicily and works very well under Patton's overall 7th army command. He's just steady Eddie, you know. You know, he just does it all perfectly well. There's obviously this cloud over pattern at the end of the Sicily campaign, so he's kind of earmarked out. Then there's a whole load of commanders which are sent over to Italy, you know, Clark Lucas, you know, Keyes and so on. And so he's the kind of the spare man, effectively. And he's done enough to really mark himself out. And he's got the patronage of Marshal.
- [08:37]
Al Murray
You know, that reflects in Montgomery, has the patronage of Brook, is brought back to Britain. And what you need is people who've done a landing, big landing. They fought the Germans a lot. And Bradley, relatively speaking, for an American general, has fought the Germans a lot and done well. And you need those people for Overlord, because Overlord has to be too big to fail. And it needs the smartest and most effective people on it. And Bradley very much falls into that category, doesn't he?
- [09:01]
James Holland
Yes. And there is this sense that here you've got someone who's not going to flap. He's clear thinking, he's safe pair of hands, just going to be a very kind of solid hand at the tiller. And so he gets made first army commander. And he does very well, you know, you can't really argue with it. I mean, you know, we've talked a lot about first army in Normandy and how that campaign plays out. And we're broadly pretty impressed, aren't we? I mean, you know.
- [09:25]
Al Murray
Well, yeah. And how else do you do it?
- [09:28]
James Holland
And how else do you do it? And, you know, let's not forget that Operation Cobra, when It's launched on the 25th of July, 1944, is the first major breakthrough of German positions in Normandy. And again, that's Bradley at the helm. And he's already been earmarked to take command of 12th Army Group when Patton's 3rd army comes in. So he hands over command of 1st army to Hodges, and 3rd army is Patton. So having been subordinate to Patton, he's now superior to Patton because he's now the army group commander. And that's because he hasn't slapped anybody. He's not the kind of sort of mercurial type that Patton is.
- [10:03]
Al Murray
He sort of gets things wrong in the Ardennes, doesn't he?
- [10:06]
James Holland
He finds himself a bit isolated. He's kind of stuck in Luxembourg, and he can't get to the northern part, you know, so that means he's in the southern part of the Bulge and he can't get to the northern part of the Bulge because there's this big dent in the line.
- [10:17]
Al Murray
Yeah. The night he starts, he's playing cards with Ike, isn't he?
- [10:20]
James Holland
Yeah. But you generally get the sense that he's sort of out of sorts. Yeah, he sort of found a little bit wanting.
- [10:25]
Al Murray
Yeah, exactly. But then so's everybody.
- [10:27]
James Holland
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [10:28]
Al Murray
To be fair, that's the truth.
- [10:30]
James Holland
But there is this sense that he refines his, Discovers his mojo in March 1945, I think, you know, the Rhine crossing, you know, he's pretty impressive.
- [10:36]
Al Murray
Goes all the way to the Elbe and then becomes an incredibly important post war soldier in Germany. If what you want as a soldier is a safe pair of hands at the top, he kind of falls squarely into that category, doesn't he?
- [10:48]
James Holland
Yeah, yeah. And I think he's a good coalition team player.
- [10:50]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [10:50]
James Holland
You know, he's not as cut and thrust as Patton, but good. I think that's sensible. I'm all in favor of being a bit cautious and saving lives personally. And you know, he was much liked by his men. You know, he was modest, unostentatious.
- [11:03]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [11:03]
James Holland
Although actually he's not that modest post war. I mean, you know, his, his autobiographies are quite self serving and definitely got an ego, there's no question about it. You know, his feathers get ruffled quite easily, but he doesn't sort of chase the headlines particularly well.
- [11:15]
Al Murray
That might be because there are bigger personalities who've grabbed some of the limelight and he's thinking, well, hold on a minute, I was Patton's boss, do you mind?
- [11:21]
James Holland
But he's pretty good, isn't he?
- [11:22]
Al Murray
Yeah, he's pretty good. He's pretty good. Our next fellow though you in the last couple of years have come to rate extremely highly as a result of research. Again, this is Mark Wayne Clark.
- [11:32]
James Holland
Well, yeah, I mean, the interesting thing about him is, you know, when you're judging, he know who's the best commander. He has done such a huge range of roles. I mean, he has served in the first World War, he's been wounded, he's won a medal for gallantry, he stays in it army in between the war, tends the infantry school at Fort Benning. He's ambitious, he's got energy. You know, he graduates from the Command of General Staff School, the Army War College. So, you know, ticking all those things again. Serves in a series of staff positions and is spotted by General Martin Marshal who picks him out. And he also forges a very close professional friendship with Dwight D. Eisenhower, Ike, which is going to be significant. And you know, by 1942, he's one of the youngest US generals to hold a major Allied operation role. And when Eisenhower is asked to go over and organize the American troops in Britain in I think it's May 1942, so only six months after Pearl harbor, he takes Clark with him. And when Eisenhower is appointed commander for Operation Torch, which is going to be the Allied invasion of Northwest Africa, it is Clarke who is overseeing the planning of that.
- [12:35]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [12:35]
James Holland
And you know, you can't get away from the fact that three different invasion forces, one coming 3,000 miles, one and two coming 1,000 miles, all land pretty much exactly where they're supposed to, pretty much on time. And the invasion is a huge success. And one of the reasons for that is because he personally has gone in a British submarine, HMS Seraph, been dropped clandestinely on the North African coast near Algiers and had meetings ahead of the invasion, nearly being caught. The police turn up, they have to hide in the cellar. They then have to take A canoe out, clapper boats, you know, Falberts, these, these collapsible canoes out to the sub waiting submarine. The surf is really high, they can't do it. They have to take all their clothes off and basically paddle in their pants and eventually second attempt they make it. I mean it is high risk, high tension stuff. And he pulls it off.
- [13:21]
Al Murray
No one we've talked about in any of these roundups has done anything daring do like that, have they? No, that shows incredible personal bravery. I'd also say it's pretty stupid sending the bloke who's planned the invas into enemy territory. You know, if he'd been picked up and they'd applied the thumb screws, who knows what he'd have given away, you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm not saying that Mark Clark would have succumbed, but you know what I mean? It's, that's incredibly hairbrained but it's tenacious.
- [13:45]
James Holland
You know, he does it and he pulls it off and it's a success. So you know, you can only praise people for successes, not for the failures that might have been.
- [13:52]
Al Murray
No, I guess, but there's a quantum of risk there.
- [13:54]
James Holland
Well, his autobiography is called Calculated Risk.
- [13:56]
Al Murray
Well, there you go, there you go.
- [14:00]
James Holland
Anyway, he then gets some. He pushes Eisenhower to give him the opportunity for field command and he gets given 5th army which he creates from scratch. It's the first army ever in the US to be formed outside of the United States. And he raises it, forms it, trains it and although he sets out the Sicilian campaign of course, you know, he then lands at Salerno, Operation Avalanche in an incredibly under supported operation, you know, facing directly. He's the first time ever that a fibius landing has been made directly against German troops.
- [14:32]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah. And with Nothing like the 3 to 1 leverage that you're supposed to have and all that sort of thing. No.
- [14:36]
James Holland
And the situation is so desperate at this point that every single one of his battalions is used, there's none in reserve. And he personally oversees the organization of the defences and the artillery against the major armoured counter thrust.
- [14:49]
Al Murray
What I want to do before we end up doing his entire campaign in Italy is say that we have extensive episodes about the entire tally campaign of Mark Clark's.
- [14:57]
James Holland
We don't need to spend any more.
- [14:58]
Al Murray
Time on him, so we don't need to do anymore. But your thing about him is he's running this campaign that's always resource poor, that's always politically poorly resourced. In other words, it's a second thought he's Running a campaign that is, that is in the shadow of tyranny of Overlord, where, as we, and we just said it, experienced people are being taken back to Britain because Overlord has got to be too big to fail. There's a sense that, you know, for the invasion of northwest Europe, we've got our best people on it. So what we've got in Italy is what we can spare. And he runs this incredibly complex, challenging campaign because of the terrain, because of the weather, because of the coalition forces he's got because of the weight of expectations, weight of expectation. And also because it's one of those campaigns the Allies are running largely through strategic momentum. You could argue they've got themselves into this situation, so now they've got to see it through and he, he pulls it off.
- [15:45]
James Holland
You know, Rome really is his victory. It's Alexander's victory too, to a certain extent. It's less so of 8th variable because 8th variation of Johnny Come lately's to that front, to the casino front. And there's no question that when Rome is captured on 4 June 1944, it is the biggest Allied land victory of the war to date. And you know, he has played a massive, massive part in that. He is. There is no American general at any point in the Second World War that has more men under his command as an army commander. And there is no American general that has such a polyglot force as well, of different nationalities as well. Yeah, you know, I mean, he has as well as all the North African Algerians and Moroccans and Tunisians. He has French, New Zealanders, etc. Etc. Indian, you know, all under his command.
- [16:27]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah.
- [16:28]
James Holland
When Alex is bumped up to Army Supreme Ally Commander in, at the end of 1944 in the Mediterranean, he has to choose an Army Group Commander. And the really obvious choice for him would have been Dick McCreary, who is 8th army commander at the time, who he's known very well. He used to be his former Chief of Staff and who is British in a predominantly British theater. He doesn't do that. He chooses Mark Clark. Why does he choose Mark Clark? Because Mark Clark is the best man for the job. So he ends up an Army Group Commander, you know, so there's only three American Army Group commanders in the European theater. There's Bradley, Clark and Devers. And I just think he's a better general, more complete general with more challenges which are overcome than Bradley.
- [17:05]
Al Murray
Great. Our next candidate fighting Joe Collins.
- [17:09]
James Holland
Yeah, well, I love Lawton Collins.
- [17:11]
Al Murray
Yeah, Lightning Joe as well. Now, Joe Collins Quite interesting this. He again, he's one of these West Point people, graduates in 1917 and he's in a wartime accelerated class.
- [17:21]
James Holland
Same class as Clark.
- [17:23]
Al Murray
Yeah, exactly. And he's with Norman Cota as well, and Matt Ridgway and Ernest Harmon. So another one of these star studded classes, full of potential. He's the first lieutenant in May 1917, temporary captain, but he's not sent overseas before the war's over. So he's into war service. And let's not forget this, the Americans do have an imperial commitment.
- [17:42]
James Holland
They do.
- [17:43]
Al Murray
Even though they don't have an empire very much so. And they're anti imperialist. They don't have an imperial commitment. But he's in the Philippines in the 1920s again. He goes to the Staff Command, General Staff School, Army Industrial College, Army War College, and then he's at Fort Benning. All these people are swimming in the same water, aren't they? Because the U.S. army is relatively small and it has this cadre of people who all know each other. But I think what's interesting is then he's Chief of staff of 7 Corps in 1941. So he's gone straight to the heart of where things are important, isn't it? That's the point.
- [18:18]
James Holland
Yeah. The other thing about him, Collins, is. Collins sees action across the globe. Yeah. His first major commanders are. Well, first of all, he has a very important staff job. So he gets that bit out of the way. Chief of staff at 7 Corps in 1941 then. And he's working alongside Admiral Bull Halsey. And I think that kind of tri service by service kind of approach, I think is really, really important to how you, you're shaped as a commander. I think it's important to understand how air power works, how naval power works and all the rest of it. He's promoted to major general in May 1942, and then he takes command of the 25th Infantry Division or Guadalcanal. So he's sent out to Guadalcanal. You know, he wraps up the island, basically cleared of all Japanese by February 1943 is his incredibly dynamic and aggressive approach to generalship. And this is where he gets his kind of, you know, his reputation. Yeah. And also he's seen as a very good combined arms guy. You know, he understands how to coordinate infantry and artillery and air support. And this is where he gets the nickname Lightning Joe.
- [19:15]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [19:15]
James Holland
And he also posed amazing courage. And I think it is just worth quoting this. So this is. He gets the major gong, I think a silver star for this, and he goes to visit the command post of an infantry battalion of the division commanded by him. General Collins walked through some 800 yards of recently captured ground infested with enemy snipers. Upon arriving on Hill 52, to gain better points of observation, he voluntarily exposed himself to intermittent rifle, machine gun and mortar fire without regard for his own personal safety. From here, he located an enemy machine gun nest and personally assisted in placing mortar fire on it and other areas likely to be occupied by the enemy while BURSTS of enemy machine gun are hit many times. But three yards away. Yards. His calmness and fearlessness under fire was an inspiration to the officers and men of the infantry regiment in that sector. His example and words of praise and encouragement, with which he continually encouraged the men in the forward units, spurred them on and contributed materially to the success of the offensives of operation. I mean, that's amazing, isn't it?
- [20:08]
Al Murray
But.
- [20:08]
James Holland
But he really pushes to have a European command. He knows where that's at, that's where action is. He wants to be part of that and gets his way. And so he's commanding seven Corps on Utah Beach. Operation Overlord.
- [20:19]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Straight in at the sharp end. In the other theater, they do very well again, VII Corps do very well in Normandy, capturing Cherbourg, of course, breaking out as part of Cobra.
- [20:31]
James Holland
He's decisive about that. He's sacking the commanders that don't come up to scratch and replacing them in. 90th Division becomes one of the great infantry divisions of northwest Europe. It starts so badly and ends up an absolute machine.
- [20:43]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [20:43]
James Holland
And that's also being filtered down from him. So I think that really, really counts. And I think the thing that really is important is the key part he plays in Operation Cobra, which is a breakout. He's very involved with the planning for that. And it is his decision to send in his armor earlier than anticipated on 26 July, when he sniffs a breakthrough. It's also him who's pioneered this idea of taking infantry on the tanks, so armour and infantry kind of moving together forward to the front. And it is a huge, huge success and a huge amount of credit for that goes to him, I think.
- [21:15]
Al Murray
And then they're into Belgium by early September, the Siegfried line in the. In autumn in the Hurtgen Forest, which is a slug. A slug fest, isn't it?
- [21:22]
James Holland
Yeah.
- [21:23]
Al Murray
The thing is with Collins is he's one of these people who sort of, if it weren't for better known people, he'd be better known. You know what I mean?
- [21:29]
James Holland
Yeah, yeah. I Mean, you know, in terms of his drive, tactical nous, operational awareness, big picture stuff, you know, there's nothing between him and Pat. There's nothing. But he's not patent, but he's not Pat. But he's a good looking fella, you know, he's got so film star good looks and all the rest of it. And you know, again, he's liked by his men and he has a fantastic post war career. I mean he is absolutely tip top, this guy. He's one of the very best, I think.
- [21:53]
Al Murray
Okay, and now we move. And you mentioned his name a moment ago. We'll do one more before the break. And this is someone, it's the third army group commander in the northwestern European theater that people will, the people do. Stubbornly refused to have heard of.
- [22:08]
James Holland
Yeah, he's an army group commander. He's one of three. He's one of three army group commanders.
- [22:12]
Al Murray
Exactly. But people still haven't heard of him. Right? They've heard of divisional commanders and army commanders and corps commanders. But Divas, General Jacob Divas tends not to be on people's radar, which I think is extraordinary, really, isn't it?
- [22:24]
James Holland
Yeah, it is. I mean, I suppose so. I think the thing is, is he's not involved in the early parts and you know, he's a staff officer for much of the other. He's older, you know, he's born in 1887. He's a West Point graduate of 1909, not 19, 1915 or 1917. Like, like the stellar guys. So there's almost a sense that he's kind of, you know, almost sort of missed it, you know, but he's attended, you know, he's done all the usual, usual stuff he doesn't see. He doesn't, for example, he doesn't see any action in Europe in first World War. He's a trainer. He's an organizer of artillery units. Artillery is his background. He's at Commander General Staff School, Army War College, blah, blah, blah. Yes, tickle, ticking, all those boxes. But he is the chief of the armored force from, from May 1941 to May 1943. So he's a pioneer of that.
- [23:05]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [23:05]
James Holland
You know, and I think that's, you know, he's a big advocate for improved tank designs. You know, he's one of the pushers for the Sherman. You know, we can all thank him for that. He was responsible for training, developing training doctrine at Fort Knox, which is a sort of armor center. He's a lieutenant general by August 1942. But then he does get sent over to the ETO. He's a planning guy, He's a staff guy. Becomes Deputy Supreme Commander in the Mediterranean under Jumbo Wilson. So this is from early 1944, rather. So Eisenhower stops being Supreme Allied Commander in the Mediterranean, goes back for Overlord Jumbo Wilson, who's British, takes over. He's his deputy. Devers is. He's just a bit older. He's just a bit more of an old man. You know, he's great diplomat. He's a good coalition officer. He's not spiky.
- [23:51]
Al Murray
Well, you do get the sense here that what he does is he comes in and takes over once the sort of. The high winds have passed, if you see what I mean, a little bit. Once. You don't need a young energetic man who's gonna, like, burn himself out to get this done. You get him in next, possibly as a deputy, a safe pair of hands to sort of steady the ship and straighten lines and stuff, right?
- [24:08]
James Holland
Yeah. I mean, you know, like Clark, he's got. He's a multinational, so he's got, you know, he's got the French first army under Latre de Tassigny, who is prickly, like all the French, and tricky to deal with. And he deals with him pretty well. I think his move up the Rhine, you know, and into. Into southern Germany and Bavaria is extremely competent. You can't fault him at all. You know what he does, he doesn't have the kind of obvious chutzpah, kind of dynamism, and he doesn't have the wealth of frontline experience that some of the other, you know, that Bradley has or Clark has. You know, he just doesn't. So I think that's what works against him. I think the fact that he's, you know, just a sort of. Just, as you say, you know, coming in after the kind of heavy winds have blown through is the sense of. And that's not his fault. It's just the way it is.
- [24:56]
Al Murray
This is the guy who's in charge of Dragoon, which is an overlooked campaign. So the fact that you have an overlooked general in charge of an overlooked campaign, these things sort of sit together, don't they? It shouldn't be much of a surprise. Anyway, we're going to take a break, and we're going to return with three more American candidates for Best in the west here on we have ways of AQ talk. We'll see you in a moment.
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- [26:45]
Al Murray
Welcome back to we have ways of making you talk now. Our next general is Ike Eisenhower. General Dwight D. Eisenhower. So I mean we don't really need to say that much.
- [26:55]
James Holland
Humble beginnings goes up staff officer. You know, he's done all sorts of interesting things. He's the guy who's kind of written, helped write the official history of the first World War. So he knows Northwest Europe, for example, been all over those battlefields.
- [27:07]
Al Murray
Marshall MacArthur.
- [27:08]
James Holland
Yep. Served in the Philippines, blah blah blah. You know, gets picked out by Marshall to take because we've already talked about him in Torch. Yeah. Okay. Let's just say it. He's absolutely brilliant. He is incredible. I mean he's incredible political general. I think he does have a nose. I think he for military strategy. I think the way he grips the final end of the in 1945, you know, from the bulge onwards is really, really impressive. That decision alone on D day and the 4.15am on 5 June, sitting in the library at Southwark House looking up and going okay, let's go. I mean, you know, for that alone he deserves, you know, a huge amount of praise. The pressure on his should is just immense.
- [27:47]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [27:48]
James Holland
Has he been really tested as a battlefield commander? No, because he's been in these series of staff jobs. I mean no, but has he been.
- [27:55]
Al Murray
Tested as the coalition leader of an enormous polyglot? Rats in a sack, arguably competing interests, Coalition, Yes. And no one else has. This is the thing, it's all very well saying, oh, Ike's not a battlefield soldier. Yeah, but you're not a diplomat soldier. Monty, for instance, you know, if, if that's the way we're going to do it. What's fascinating about Ike is he's the sixth of seven sons. What did the other lads do? What did the other I. Eisenhower get up to? Is that a family of incredible fecund potential that was only, only one son was tapped.
- [28:25]
James Holland
Brother of the more famous Dwight.
- [28:27]
Al Murray
Yeah, but I mean, his career is sort of. They pick him early. I think what's really interesting about this is that the American army marshal really decides on him very early on that this is the guy who's going to end up running these things because as you say, he's picked for Torch six months after Pearl Harbor. They know immediately who they want running their big campaigns and they're difficult campaigns that they've not done before, amphibian campaigns. And it's him, and it remains him right to the end. I think that's really, really interesting in itself. How good they are at finding the right guy and how they stick with him and back him is a mark of his talent. Right.
- [29:00]
James Holland
Well, there is this moment where the Tunuza campaign isn't going very well and sort of, you know, and it's, and it's now January 1943 and it's the Casablanca conference and he gets called in and, and Ruser has a one on one with him and he's really nervous about it. He thinks he's going to be fired. Ruser immediately reassures him, says, no, no, no, you're doing a great job. But he says, but just tell me, you know, how long do you think it's going to take week for the Tunisia campaign to be over? And he says 15th of May, and it's over on the 13th of May. From then on he's fine.
- [29:26]
Al Murray
He's fine. It's golden.
- [29:28]
James Holland
You know, one of the reasons why the allies are so. Western allies are so successful in the war is because of that singleness of purpose, that sense of coalition, that sense of coordination, cooperation, unity. I'm not deviating from the kind of main aim and that is really down to him. He's a towering figure.
- [29:44]
Al Murray
From a towering figure to a figure who leapt off towers. It's jumping Jim Gavin.
- [29:49]
James Holland
Yee haw.
- [29:50]
Al Murray
Yee haw. And Again, if you're a regular listener to this podcast, you know that we have a very soft spot for Jim Gavin. And even soft enough to forgive his great howler at an I Mugen perhaps. Now, Gavin is an American dream soldier, isn't he? Let's be honest. Now he's orphaned in early life. He's placed in an orphanage, born in 1907.
- [30:08]
James Holland
So he's young.
- [30:08]
Al Murray
Yeah, he's young. A youngster in Brooklyn. He grows up in very modest circumstances, lies about his age to join the army and manages to get in and the coast artillery in Corregidor in Philippines. He ends up then gets himself on service merit, gets himself into West Point.
- [30:24]
James Holland
Well, and on. On coaching, you know, teaching himself. So he gets the academic qualifications by learning in his own free time with no teachers.
- [30:31]
Al Murray
Yeah, very, very. He's athletic, he's strong, he's very, very pushy, gung ho. And he's done Fort Benning, Infantry School, Command General Staff, College school. So this is a guy who's going far, whatever happens in the American army. And then he goes to the cole superior de guerre in France in 1939 as an exchange officer. But what he does, and we talked about Windy Gale in this context, he's one of these people who sees a future avenue of warfare in the German airborne successes in 1940. He immerses himself in studying this stuff. And of course, the Soviets have been showing off that they could, they could throw people out of airplanes in the 1930s. He's right in at the very start when the Americans set up their airborne program and becomes Mr. Airborne, basically carves outer space for himself because he's so bright and because he's so sort of assured who writes the manual. So I mean, I think what's, what's really, you know, the airborne manual, FM3130. I think what's really amazing about him is this is a guy who is self taught, self taught, then teaches, writes manual, carries out operations based on manual that he wrote himself. That, you know, it's, it's a sort of. If you believe in people being able to master their own destiny, then Jim Gavin is a person who.
- [31:41]
James Holland
Yes, I mean, I've got a copy of his, of his own personal notebook that he kept on inspiring generals throughout history. And it's just a little notebook which is handwritten in his own, you know, own hand. And it's sort of notes on Hannibal at canine and stuff like this. It is absolutely amazing. So he's incredibly well read. You know, he just, just hooves it all up. He's a real thinking man, like Tuka, you know, he just doesn't stop thinking about, you know, what possibilities. How can you do things better? You know, he's constantly jumping into action as well. In North Africa, in Sicily, in Italy, Salerno, he did a daylight jump. Then he's in Normandy. I mean, no, he's just amazing.
- [32:17]
Al Murray
Well, and he experiences the thing that airborne people may have written a manual about airborne operations. He experiences the things. The truth of them is, once you land, you can be a doughboy or a brigadier, but you're going to have to find other people, fight probably with your own personal rifle or carbine or whatever, and get into it long before you can make any command decisions. And Gavin understands that intrinsically, doesn't he? He knows right from the start, because that's what happens to him in Sicily. That's what happens to him in Italy. It's what happens to him in Normandy. It happens again and again and again.
- [32:48]
James Holland
And he's. He is just immense at Lafayette. And you know, that. That hold. Holding that line on the murder rate, you know, that. That's him. You know, he's doing that for kind of three days, you know, two and a half days or whatever it is. I mean, it's just. He's absolutely incredible leadership.
- [33:01]
Al Murray
And then Market Garden, of course, I mean, he's clipped his back, hasn't he, when he lands. So, yeah, so he's. He's in agony for the whole thing. And afterwards says, of course, it was a perfect Ebon show. We do all do it again.
- [33:11]
James Holland
Yeah. So you might have got that a little bit wrong.
- [33:13]
Al Murray
But.
- [33:13]
James Holland
But what he does get right is he says to Lingvist, he says, when you attack, attack from the eastern side along the river.
- [33:19]
Al Murray
Oh, dear. No, of course, Lindquist doesn't do that.
- [33:21]
James Holland
No. So had he done it, then, he would have got the bridge on the first day.
- [33:24]
Al Murray
But Gavin then goes on. Then goes on to have a fascinating career as ambassador to France under. Under Kennedy and stuff like that.
- [33:30]
James Holland
He's a really impressive man.
- [33:32]
Al Murray
He's a very, very impressive man. And he's also, I mean, without being sort of too rosy about the. The US army, he's an example of. Of how it, at that stage in American history is taking people from any background and giving them the opportunity to turn themselves into sort of gleaming, influential and important people. So far, so many of the people we've talked about have been examples of that, which I think is really, really interesting.
- [33:54]
James Holland
Yeah.
- [33:55]
Al Murray
And finally, Best of the West.
- [33:57]
James Holland
This is your Doppelganger. When you had, when you had your, your, your mustache, your King Charles moustache and put a helmet on, you look just like Ernest Harmon. Look at, look at the pictures of him. It's just uncanny.
- [34:09]
Al Murray
Let me just, Let me just pull him up. We'll leave this in. Am I to be insulted, ladies and gentlemen?
- [34:14]
James Holland
No, not at all. He's a, he's an absolute legend.
- [34:16]
Al Murray
Oh, yeah, yeah. Bang on. Yeah, absolutely right. OLD GRAVEL voice yeah. I mean, look at him, you know, he's fantastic, isn't he? That is you.
- [34:27]
James Holland
I'm looking at the picture of him of his M43 with his binos around his neck. That one. See that one?
- [34:33]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [34:35]
James Holland
Bring it on. Or standing in the tank. His tank.
- [34:38]
Al Murray
Very strong.
- [34:39]
James Holland
He's gravel voice so he's. So he was. Okay, man, we gotta get forward.
- [34:44]
Al Murray
He's one of these guys.
- [34:45]
James Holland
We gotta get through the Hurricane. I know it's a shit show, but we gotta do it, lads.
- [34:51]
Al Murray
Cavalryman though, right? That's the thing. And I don't think we've had an American cavalryman yet, actually. We've had armored people, people who become armored people.
- [34:57]
James Holland
I rate this guy really highly, by the way. I think he. I think he's the absolute must nuts.
- [35:02]
Al Murray
Well, go tell us who he is.
- [35:03]
James Holland
Well, he's just, he's just fantastic. He's. He's just like. He's a proper fighting general. He's tough as old boots. He's a cavalry man. So he gets the whole kind of mobile warfare picture. He's done a bit of staff stuff as well. He's in the same West Point graduates as Clark and Ridgeway & Co and Cota. And he very much calls a spade a spade. There's no getting around that. But, but he's absolutely key to kind of development of armour warfare. And by May 1942, he's brigadier general and then he takes command of 2nd Armored Division's combat command A, you know, they're divided into combat commander, you know, effectively brigades, and then he's part of the Western task force for Operation Torch. And he's sent in to act as a troubleshooter after setbacks of Kasserine Pass. He's very good at kind of kicking out crap commanders and putting new guys in and reporting back to Eisenhower and, you know, he's an ass kicker. He then takes over the 1st Armored Division in April 1943 for the final stages of the Tunisia campaign. Does really, really well in that. Then commands first armoured in Sicily, then is involved in the war in Italy later on. And then he's moved over to take second Armored Division, which, of course is hell on wheels. It's the best name.
- [36:12]
Al Murray
It's the best.
- [36:13]
James Holland
You know, and they have an. You know, they have incredible reputation. They're hugely effective. You know, they're the guys in Operation Cobra and all the rest of it. In July 1944, and he plays a key role in the Ardennes counter offensive, you know, second Armored Division. Then they kind of come and come and rescue everyone. And then he's promoted to take command of 22 Corps in January 1945. And again, you know, he just does really well. He's. He's fast speed convoys. Let's go. Absolutely visible front. You know, he's riding in a tank. You know, he's, you know, everything. You imagine a kind of, you know, from the war movies that an American armored general is, you know, He's. He's great.
- [36:50]
Al Murray
Yeah. I think it is fair to say not someone that everyone might have heard of. Right. And I think because had he got higher, we'd probably know sooner. We'd probably know his name, wouldn't we? More. More readily anyway. Well, there we go. There's seven of the best in the West. U.S. generals. We hope you've enjoyed that. In the next episode, we will be working our way through another dirty half dozen and a bit, and. And then after that, the Germans. Thanks very much for listening. If you want to listen to all these in one go without adverts, then of course, you know, we don't like the hard sell on this podcast, but if you want to not bother with the adverts. Are you on a special diet still? I can't remember.
- [37:26]
James Holland
No, no, no, no, no.
- [37:27]
Al Murray
Okay.
- [37:29]
James Holland
Pass the biscuits, will you?
- [37:32]
Al Murray
If that's what you want. Patreon is a place to go so you can vote for your favorite generals. And then we will thrash it out. Finally put to rest who the best of the west is at we have Ways Fest. And the way to go to we have Waysfest, of course, is we havewaysfest.co.uk tickets still available. It's the best weekend of war waffle you could possibly hope for. We will see you soon. Cheerio.
- [37:52]
James Holland
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- [38:18]
Al Murray
Hard route to the top of the Eiffel Tower.
- [38:21]
James Holland
Oh, we were made to easily bundle your trip expedia. Made to travel flight inclusive packages are atoll protected.