WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk

Episode: Eisenhower: America's Best General
Date: September 1, 2025
Hosts: Al Murray (comedian, history enthusiast) & James Holland (WWII historian)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Al Murray and James Holland embark on part two of their quest to definitively rank the best American generals of WWII. With their trademark blend of insight and humour, they assess the leadership, achievements, strengths, and quirks of seven American commanders. The conversation weaves historical detail with lively banter, aiming to both inform and finally “drive a stake through the heart” of endless barroom debates about who was “the best in the West.”

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Best General” Stakes

• The hosts explain their methodology: a comprehensive review of top Allied generals to determine, ultimately via listener vote, the best on each side.
• The exercise is part of a broader event (We Have Ways Fest) and plays on the perennial popularity of “who was best” debates among WWII enthusiasts.

2. Omar N. Bradley

(starts ~04:00)

Background

• Called the “GI’s General”—modest, steady, unostentatious.
• Product of the US military’s meritocratic tradition: son of a schoolteacher, briefly a boilermaker, rose through the ranks thanks to skill and opportunity.

Career Highlights

• West Point class of 1915: a “class of stars”—includes Eisenhower.
• Served in various training and instructional roles; recognized as an adept trainer and tactician before WWII.
• Commanded II Corps in North Africa and Sicily after Patton moved up post-Kasserine Pass, earning his reputation as a steady, reliable hand.
• Led First Army for D-Day and Normandy, then commanded the massive 12th Army Group (becoming Patton’s superior).

Strengths & Weaknesses

• “He’s just steady Eddie, you know. He just does it all perfectly well.” —James Holland (08:10)
• Exemplary at managing the explosive growth of the US Army and leading men through complex coalition operations.
• Criticized for faltering during the Battle of the Bulge (“found a little bit wanting”—10:02), but bounced back in the Rhine crossing and beyond.

Memorable Quotes

• “If what you want as a soldier is a safe pair of hands at the top, he kind of falls squarely into that category, doesn’t he?” —Al Murray (10:36)
• “He was much liked by his men. He was modest, unostentatious.” —James Holland (11:00)

3. Mark W. Clark

(starts ~11:30)

Background

• Fought and wounded in WWI, an ambitious and energetic staff officer with a close friendship with Eisenhower.
• Known for tenacity, courage, and willingness to take “calculated risks.”

Career Highlights

• Led planning for Operation Torch; carried out a daring secret mission to North Africa (clandestine meetings in enemy-held territory) to set up the invasion.
• As commander of Fifth Army, oversaw the Salerno landing—the first direct amphibious assault against German troops.
• Managed the complicated Italian campaign with a multinational force, culminating in the capture of Rome (the biggest Allied land victory at that stage).

Assessment

• “He has to choose an army group commander...he chooses Mark Clark. Why? Because Mark Clark is the best man for the job.” —James Holland (16:28)
• Described as a more complete general than Bradley due to his range of roles, challenges overcome, and coalition management.

Notable Quote

• “No one we’ve talked about in any of these roundups has done anything daring do like that, have they?” —Al Murray on Clark’s nerve (13:21)

4. Lawton “Lightning Joe” Collins

(starts ~17:08)

Background

• West Point (1917), saw early service in the Philippines, rose with peers like Ridgway and Clark.
• Gained global experience, especially across different theaters and in combined arms operations.

Career Highlights

• Led 25th Infantry Division at Guadalcanal, renowned for decisive, aggressive approach: “He wraps up the island...cleared of all Japanese by February 1943.” —James Holland (18:18)
• Earned Silver Star for personal courage; pivotal in Operation Overlord (Utah Beach) commanding VII Corps.
• Instrumental in Operation Cobra; decisive leadership turned the 90th Division from underperformers to one of the war’s best.

Assessment

• “In terms of his drive, tactical nous, operational awareness, big picture stuff, you know, there’s nothing between him and Patton. But he’s not Patton.” —James Holland (21:29)

Notable Moment

• “His calmness and fearlessness under fire was an inspiration...” —James Holland reading citation (19:15)

5. Jacob Devers

(starts ~22:08)

Background

• Less well-known; older, staff-heavy background, artillery specialist.
• Pioneer of US armored doctrine, key advocate for the Sherman tank.

Career Highlights

• Chief of the Armored Force, led improvements in training and equipment.
• Deputy Supreme Allied Commander in the Mediterranean before leading 6th Army Group—commanded the overlooked Dragoon campaign in southern France.
• Managed multinational relationships, especially with complex French commanders.

Assessment

• “He’s an army group commander. He’s one of three Army Group commanders.” —James Holland (22:08)
• Described as competent, diplomatic, and a “safe pair of hands”—his relative obscurity quirkily matches the underappreciated nature of his tasks.

Notable Quote

• “You do get the sense here that what he does is come in and take over once the sort of... the high winds have passed, if you see what I mean.” —Al Murray (24:08)

6. Dwight D. Eisenhower

(starts ~26:44)

Background

• Humble origins, staff skills honed in writing the Army’s WWI official history.
• Marshall identifies him early for top leadership; becomes architect of all Anglo-American operations in Western Europe.

Career/Impact

• Supreme commander, led Torch, Overlord, and the campaign through Europe.
• Lauded for coalition leadership, decision-making under massive pressure (e.g., D-Day “lets go” order).

Assessment

• “He’s absolutely brilliant. He is incredible. I mean he’s an incredible political general.” —James Holland (26:54)
• Not a field commander but the ultimate coalition diplomat and strategic coordinator.

Notable Moment

• “Has he been really tested as a battlefield commander? No, but... has he been tested as the coalition leader of an enormous polyglot, rats-in-a-sack, arguably competing interests coalition? Yes. And no one else has.” —Al Murray (27:55)
• On D-Day decision: “For that alone, he deserves, you know, a huge amount of praise. The pressure on his shoulders is just immense.” —James Holland (27:46)

7. James “Jumpin’ Jim” Gavin

(starts ~29:44)

Background

• Archetypal self-made American: orphaned, put in an orphanage, lied about his age to join Army, worked up to West Point via merit and self-study.
• Charismatic airborne commander, hugely respected by both hosts.

Career Highlights

• Architect of US airborne doctrine, wrote the manual (FM 31-130), innovated and led from the front.
• Fought at Sicily, Salerno, Normandy (famed for bravery on the ground), Market Garden (“clipped his back, landed, fought on in agony”).
• Known for deep thinking and constant seeking to improve.

Assessment

• “If you believe in people being able to master their own destiny, then Jim Gavin is a person who...” —Al Murray (31:39)
• “He’s a real thinking man... just hoovers it all up.” —James Holland (31:40)

Notable Quote

• “He’s absolutely incredible leadership.” —James Holland, on Gavin holding the line at La Fière Bridge, Normandy (33:01)

8. Ernest N. Harmon

(starts ~33:56)

Background

• Cavalryman, famed for his raspy voice and no-nonsense approach (“calls a spade a spade”).
• Graduated with the stellar class alongside Clark and Ridgway.

Career Highlights

• Key troubleshooter post-Kasserine Pass; renowned for turning around struggling formations.
• Led 1st and then 2nd Armored Divisions (“Hell on Wheels”)—played crucial roles in Sicily, Italy, Cobra, Ardennes.
• Promoted to corps command in 1945; always leading from the front, usually in his tank.

Assessment

• “He’s just fantastic. He’s a proper fighting general. He’s tough as old boots.” —James Holland (35:03)
• Not widely known due to not reaching higher command levels, but “the must nuts” for sheer fighting spirit and effectiveness.

Notable Moment

• Hosts banter over Al’s resemblance to Harmon (“If you put on a helmet and grow a mustache, you are Ernest Harmon!” —James Holland, 34:13)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Bradley: “He’s sort of part of how things happen.” —Al Murray (03:56)
• On Clark’s risks: “It’s incredibly harebrained but it’s tenacious.” —Al Murray (13:21)
• On Lightning Joe Collins: “His drive, tactical nous, operational awareness, big-picture stuff—there’s nothing between him and Patton.” —James Holland (21:29)
• On Eisenhower: “He’s a towering figure.” —James Holland (29:44)
• On Gavin’s manual: “Self-taught, then teaches, writes manual, carries out operations based on manual that he wrote himself.” —Al Murray (31:40)
• On Harmon: “He’s an ass kicker.” —James Holland (36:12)

Segment Timestamps

• [04:00] Omar N. Bradley
• [11:30] Mark W. Clark
• [17:08] Lawton “Lightning Joe” Collins
• [22:08] Jacob Devers
• [26:44] Dwight D. Eisenhower
• [29:44] James “Jumpin’ Jim” Gavin
• [33:56] Ernest N. Harmon

Tone and Style

The hosts keep the discussion lively, peppered with historical asides, banter about moustaches, and clear enthusiasm for both tactical detail and the idiosyncrasies of each general. They emphasize the meritocratic, transformative nature of WWII’s US Army and frequently highlight traits like humility, adaptability, and the ability to work in coalitions.

Summary: What Makes a Great American WWII General?

• Steadiness (Bradley), daring (Clark), dynamism (Collins), innovation (Devers, Gavin), coalition skill (Eisenhower), and sheer fighting spirit (Harmon) all get their due.
• The episode ends on the note that while some generals (like Ike and Patton) are household names, others made contributions just as vital—and the hosts hope to spark renewed appreciation for these often-overlooked figures.

For further engagement and to vote for your own “Best of the West,” listeners are directed to the show’s Patreon and upcoming festival.

End of summary. This covers the episode’s structure, key personalities, major insights, timestamps, and notable moments, while capturing the spirit and depth of the original discussion.