Podcast Summary: "Hiroshima: VJ Day"

WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk – August 18, 2025
Hosts: Al Murray, James Holland
Guest: John McManus

Episode Theme & Purpose

This episode commemorates the anniversaries marking the end of WWII, focusing on the Japanese surrender aboard USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay (September 2, 1945). The hosts and guest historian John McManus offer an in-depth, story-rich discussion of the event’s military, political, and human dimensions: from the symbolism of location and the personalities involved (MacArthur, Nimitz, Wainwright, Shigemitsu), to the choreography of the surrender ceremony, its aftermath, and enduring lessons about magnanimity in victory.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Symbolism of USS Missouri & the Surrender Ceremony

• The team sets the scene: The surrender aboard the Missouri is described as a "self-contained event," nearly theatrical in its precision and emotional resonance.
• Historical Synchronicity:
  • “The war begins with battleships in the sense of Pearl Harbor… And now it ends aboard a battleship. There’s a kind of neat synergy to the whole thing.” – John McManus (04:06)
  • The choice of the Missouri (Truman’s home state, modern battleship) symbolizes the scale of American wartime transformation and postwar aspirations.
• The host notes the irony: the Missouri is “absolutely state of the art,” equipped and stocked for both battle and peace—and the very same ship would serve into the Gulf War, a testament to both durability and evolving technology (04:54; 14:15).

Notable Segment

[10:01-12:30] The Scale and Armament of Missouri

• “This has got 9, 16-inch, 10, 5-inch… 49, 20-millimeter cannons on it. That is some firepower. And… it looked like a giant hedgehog bristling with cannons.” – James Holland

2. The Ceremony: Planning, Stagecraft, and Participants

• MacArthur, deeply invested in the ceremony’s symbolism and order, delegates Colonel Whipple as “showrunner” (16:36), mapping every officer’s exact position, rehearsing the Japanese delegation’s entry (including a role-play of Shigemitsu’s ascent with an artificial leg), and planning logistics for over 200 reporters.
• Inclusivity: All the major Allied powers are represented: US, UK, China, USSR, Australia, Canada, France, the Netherlands, New Zealand.
• Noted tension between inclusion (show of allied unity) and the American desire to “shove [the Allies] out of the occupation, especially the Soviets” (33:22).

Notable Segment

[18:03-18:36] The Canadian Signatory Mishap

• “Even the Canadians and the Canadian representative… signs in the wrong place. They have to kind of scratch it out and are worried what’s going to happen with the Japanese…” – John McManus

3. Personalities and Human Moments

A. General Jonathan Wainwright

• Wainwright, who surrendered the Philippines in 1942 and was thought likely to be disgraced or tried, is instead hailed as a hero: “He thought he was going to be sent home in disgrace… instead, of course, he gets the Medal of Honor, which he richly deserved.” – John McManus (06:14)
• The reunion of prisoners (Wainwright, Percival) and commanders (MacArthur, Halsey) is highlighted as fraught with deep emotion, “Halsey almost broke down weeping when they saw each other… he looked pretty threadbare.” (21:32)

B. MacArthur’s Moment & Tone

• MacArthur suffers an upset stomach from nerves—a rare humanizing detail. “He went into… the head… and retched. His doctor says ‘Are you ok?’… MacArthur’s like, ‘Yeah, this happens to me.’” (18:36)
• Contrast in diaries: Stillwell, upon arrival, wrote, “took a crap and then went up top.” (19:33)

Notable Segment

[27:13–28:30] MacArthur’s Address (Read by Host)

"It is for us, both victors and vanquished, to rise to that higher dignity… my earnest hope, and indeed the hope for all mankind, that from this solemn occasion a better world shall emerge out of the blood and carnage of the past, a world dedicated to the dignity of man and the fulfillment of his most cherished wish for freedom, tolerance and justice." – MacArthur (read by Al Murray)

4. The Japanese Delegation: Dignity and Humiliation

• Led by Foreign Minister Mamoru Shigemitsu (“formal morning coat, stiff collar, top hat… looks so anachronistic”) and diplomat Toshikazu Kase (Harvard alum, fluent in English, later revealed as Yoko Ono’s uncle—34:15), their entry is described as “being subject to the torture of the pillory... I felt them sink into my body with sharp physical pain…” (30:11).
• Allies aimed to make the loss unambiguous without total debasement, mindful of Versailles ("Part of this must be after Versailles… you've really got to let them know they have lost…" – Al Murray, 31:37), while also ensuring Hirohito’s retention to stabilize occupation (35:03).

Notable Quote

“If we had won the war, if it had gone the other way, I don’t think it would have been this noble… The reason is moral, that they had the moral high ground and we didn’t.”
— John McManus relaying Toshikazu Kase’s words (33:21; 34:04)

5. Ceremony Details & Aftermath

• The exact signing order and mechanics: Delegates come aboard at 08:56; ceremony starts at 9:00. MacArthur’s “hands were shaking a little bit” (36:01). Japanese sign first—some confusion about where to sign, resolved by MacArthur snapping, “Sutherland, show them where to sign!” (36:31)
• By 09:08, signing is completed; MacArthur signs copies for Allies, passing pens to Wainwright, Percival—deeply appreciated gestures for these recently liberated officers.
• Aftermath for Wainwright: Returns to hero’s welcome but struggles with the burden of fame and trauma, “isolated in his hero’s cage… always a big drinker… eventually drank himself to death.” (38:38)

6. Legacy: Tone, Magnanimity, and Memory

• The ceremony, despite its display of massive Allied might (battleships and spectacular air flyover), is ultimately framed as a “triumph for the Americans”—their willingness to be magnanimous, to look ahead rather than purely avenge (42:07).
• “It’s easy to be magnanimous when there’s B-29s blanking out the sun…” – Al Murray (43:17)
• The flyover itself is described as a precursor to today’s American tradition at major events (43:21).

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “I simply could not believe that anything could be so huge and so, so studded with guns.” – Jonathan Wainwright, on seeing USS Missouri after liberation (05:54)
• “At the order of the captain, the crew recovered the body of the kamikaze pilot and buried him with full military honors.” – John McManus, on an act of respect aboard Missouri (11:06)
• “Wainwright and Halsey had known each other for many, many years… Halsey almost broke down weeping when they saw each other.” (21:32)
• “The Japanese are certainly feeling cowed… it’s all set up to… completely humiliate the Japanese. I think it sort of succeeds pretty quickly.” – James Holland (23:17)
• “There had been a concern they would come in and slash and burn… this ceremony sets a different tone… MacArthur basically says… now it’s time to put war behind us…” – John McManus (23:31)
• "If we had won... I don't think it would have been this noble..." – Kase via McManus (34:04)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:34–04:54: Setting the context and symbolism of USS Missouri
• 06:14–07:49: Wainwright’s story, liberation, and inclusion in ceremony
• 10:01–12:30: Detailed description of Missouri’s capabilities
• 16:36–18:36: Planning and orchestration of the ceremony (the “wedding planner” analogy)
• 18:03–18:36: Mishap with Canadian signatory
• 21:32–22:43: Emotional reunions among Allied commanders
• 27:13–28:30: MacArthur’s speech (read aloud)
• 30:11–34:04: Japanese delegation’s experience and Kase’s reflections
• 35:53–37:08: Ceremony step-by-step and timing
• 38:38–42:07: Wainwright’s fate and reflections on postwar America
• 42:07–43:39: Legacy and “triumph” of American magnanimity

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a vivid, balanced, and accessible account of one of WWII’s signature moments—funneled through archival anecdotes, witty banter, and sharp analysis. The hosts and guest historian bring history to life: not just as a sequence of events, but as a tapestry of individual stories, cultural shifts, and moral choices that shaped the modern postwar era.

Highly recommended for listeners intrigued by the personalities and symbolism behind the end of WWII, the unprecedented American capacity for transformation, and the curiously human stories woven into moments of world-historical consequence.