← WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
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- [00:02]
A
Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com we haveways.
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B
It's a historically hideous season. It's our 100th ugly house. And if these walls could talk do.
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A
You CR cry a lot?
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B
I do. Ugliest House in America Season premiere Wednesday at 8 on HGTV well, the holidays have come and gone once again, but if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift, well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it an early present for next year. What do you have to lose? Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch limited time.
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A
50% off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $1 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy.
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B
See terms oh, such a clutch off season pickup Dave. I was worried we'd bring back the same team. I meant those Blackout motorized shades. Blinds.com made it crazy affordable to replace our old blinds. Hard to install? No, it's easy. I installed these and then got some for my mom. She talked to a design consultant for free and scheduled a professional measure and install hall of Fame son. They're the number one online retailer of custom window coverings in the world. Blinds.com is the goat. Visit blinds.com now for up to 45% off site, wide and free professional installation rules and restrictions apply. On the evening of May 23, 1941, as a junior Naval Reserve lieutenant, I was Bridge Officer of the Watch in the Home Fleet destroyer Tartar. At the time, we were escorting the old battleship Rodney and the line of Britannic across the Atlantic to the westward. At around 9pm the buzzer from the wireless office sounded indicating a signal was ready, and the signalman of the watch, name of Pearson, put his hand into the communicating pipe to haul the box up, containing it. This was the time of day when the Admiralty sent out routine messages such as the nightly U Boat Disposition Report. Interesting and relevant, but nothing to arouse excitement. But when Pearson handed me the signal, I saw it was prefixed most immediate. Below it was the From Norfolk to Admiralty 1 BS 1 CR 66.40 N 2822 W CO 220 SP 30 Pearson. I said, does this mean what I think it means? Yes, sir. One enemy battleship, one enemy cruiser. My position, 6440N 2820 West Corps 220. Speed 30 knots. Thus did we learn of the breakout from Germany of Hitler's giant battleship Bismarck and the heavy cruiser Pinz Eugen. And the next six days were the most exciting of my life. That was written by Ludovic Kennedy.
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A
And welcome to we have Ways of Making youg Talk with Me, Al Murray and James Holland, the Second World War podcast podcast for all your Second World War podcast needs and requirements and desires. And one of the things you needed, desired and required was the story of the Hood and the Bismarck. The Titanic naval struggle of 1941. The late spring, early summer of 1941, when, well, the Royal Navy underwent one of its great surface victories, but also one of its great surface defeats. I think it's fair to say that, isn't it, Jim?
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B
Loss rather than defeat. Loss rather than defeat.
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A
Okay, okay, okay. We're going to slice the onion in that direction.
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B
It is just such an amazing story. It is completely brilliant. There's a reason why people obsess about the Hood and the Bismarck. These were naval giants. Yeah. You know, they're incredibly beautiful, deadly, A kind of manifestation of modernity and enormity and a sort of clash in the icy seas of the northern Atlantic and then a fit further south in the more southern, south central Atlantic in late May 1941. You know, the peaks and the troughs of things that the characters. Oh, God, it's just, it's.
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A
But it's also the end of an era, isn't it? The big fleet encounters that the Royal Navy has during the Second World War tend to be in the Mediterranean. There aren't those big capital ship encounters in the Atlantic. And this is kind of it. The Royal Navy has changed its attitude. It knows it can't have big fleet encounters. That's. That's the thing of the past. The balance is shifting to air. Yeah, but the Kriegsmarine, along the way has tried to, you know, with Plan Z, had tried to come up with having a big surface fleet that would cause all sorts of problems. And it's, it's kept people awake at night at Admiralty. The fruits of plans that even though they haven't actually come to fruition. There's the Bismarck, really, the Prinz Eugen, the Scharnhorst, the Tirpitz. These, these names, I think, yes. These names, I think even now they live.
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B
They live on.
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A
It's A handful of ships.
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B
There's something about the majesty and enormity of these huge battleships, these huge capital ships and then them being sunk and then them being discovered sort of, you know, 60, 70 years later on the ocean floor. That's that sort of tragic, magnificent, romant. Kind of awful.
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A
All.
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B
All thrown into one. And I've just come completely obsessed with this. I. I just. It was, you know, it was a story I was familiar with, but. But not in detail. I'm all for navy. I've never said it.
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A
On 20 May 1941, a phone rings in the flat of Captain Henry Denham rn, in his flat in Riddigarten in Stockholm. The British Embassy's on the line and he's summoned to the embassy right away and a man called Colonel Rochelund has arrived to see him. Now, Denim's the naval attache to Norway. He escapes, he posts and he's posted straight to Sweden via Narvik. So he's. He's the Scandinavian expert and this is. This couldn't be a more important job actually, for keeping tabs on the. On the Kriegsmarine. So he's. He gets there via Narvik, the North Cape and Finland and he's been in Sweden ever since, which is of course neutral, but that means it's a den of, of spying, of information transfer, of the rules being bent because the Swedes, after all, start off pretty, kind of pretty scrupulously neutral, but as the. As the tide turns, realise that that may be not the best situation to be in at the end of the war. But we aren't quite. We're not there yet.
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B
Of course, yes, the Swedish tree stars leaning towards the Allies.
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A
But not yet. But not yet. This is a place that is plastic and that's malleable and where you can. You can talk to military attaches and pass on information. So Lund is the military attache from the exiled Norwegian government and he's a friend of Denham's. He's a pal, very reliable, great contact, including Colonel Petterson, who's head of the Swedish Secret Service.
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B
But.
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A
But they're neutral, Jim.
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B
Anyway, useful contact.
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A
Useful contact.
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B
Useful.
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A
And this is the first time that Lund has called for a special meeting and he's got info from Peterson, who's known as P. It's not the tightest code that, let's be honest now.
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B
Anyway, so he hands over to the embassy, doesn't he? And Rosha Lund shows him a message from P's office.
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A
Uncrackable.
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B
That could be that two uncrackable that two German warships were at sea with escorts. And Denham's initially a bit skeptical about this but drops a telegram to the Admiralty, most immediate media graded B3. And within an hour he's put in this is put into cipher and is on his way to London. And the message is this Katakat today 20th of May at 1500, two large warships escorted by three destroyers, five escort vessels, 10 or 12 aircraft past Mastran Course North West 2058, 20. So that's you know, nearly nine o'.
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A
Clock.
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B
This is of course the two warships. This is the mighty Bismarck, the only battleship the Germans have. Yeah, they've got pocket battleships. We're not going to get into that but this is the only battleship they've got that is currently available and seaworthy and ready for operations. And the Prinz Eugen which is a, a cruiser, they are on their way for part of operation Rhein Ubun which is a plan to break out through the North Sea into the northern Atlantic and there go on a merry spree. Absolutely Pulverizing merchant vessels, plying their trade for the allies across the Atlantic. That is the aim of it. And so why is this such big news? Well it's, it's because Bismarck's the biggest battleship in the world in May 1940 and if it can be allowed to get into the Atlantic then it could potentially run absolutely amok.
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A
Yeah, I mean it's the, it's the sum of, it's the sum of the admiralty spheres isn't it? Surface vessel raiding. And we, we know, we've talked about the business of submarine warfare being only so, only so efficient and in fact actually not meeting even Donitz's poor expectations, you know, unrealistic expectations is the truth.
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B
Well his grab from nowhere, 500,000 tons of money.
- [09:58]
A
Exactly. If you're a battleship that can shell things standing off this is something to be worried about. As small and as the Kriegsmarines actual surface fleet is and as unique as the Bismarck is, it's the biggest battleship in the world and their only battleship that's serviceable. This is a big deal. This is something to be worried about, isn't it?
- [10:16]
B
And as we discussed in our Atlantic War series, you know, back in January 1941, just a quick reminder, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau have broken the British blockade. And you know these are battle cruisers, so battleship level firepower but less armor which means they're lighter and fast. And that's fine because that is their role. Their role is not to engage British Warships, their role is to blast small escorts for convoys and then the convoy itself. And of course a battleship or a battle cruiser with all its firepower can make short work of a convoy. I mean, really can absolutely obliterate it. So these, these battle cruisers are a blend of battleship guns with cruisers. They'd broken out through the Faroese Iceland gap. So you've got the Faroe Islands to the north of Scotland, then you've got Iceland. And so you're coming through the North Sea kind of off the coast of Nor, you know, you're coming out of the Baltic, along the coast of Norway, up to the top of Norway, across into sort of almost into the North Cape and then down into the Atlantic that way. They scarpa after being spotted by the, by the Royal Navy cruiser Naiad. Then they refuel from a waiting tanker before using the mists of the northern, you know, of the northern Atlantic to break into the Atlantic through the Denmark Straits, which is the bit between Greenland and Iceland. So it's northeast Iceland, southwest Greenland, this comparatively narrow channel between the ice pack and Iceland itself known as the Denmark Straits. And it's up to, you know, 50, 30 miles and narrowing to sort of, you know, 10 to 15 miles at point places. So this is your, this is your route into the Atlantic. Commanding this back, this, this trip, this little sort of sea Kampfgruper, this sort of battle group of the Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst was Admiral Gunter Lutjens who signalled. German battleships have today succeeded in breaking through the British blockade. We shall now go forward to success. And they then spent two months at sea and sank 116,000 tons of Allied shipping before then beetling off to Brest. You know, in Britain that's still only.
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A
50, 60,000 tons a month. That's not a bonanza, is it? Let's be honest now.
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B
No, it's not. From a British point of view, you still don't want them sinking human still.
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A
Don'T want that happening. But this points to how actually weak the Kriegsmarine is. They're not big enough to go out and mix it in the, in the North Atlantic for any prolonged period of time. They haven't got the infrastructure, they haven't got the supply system. You know, when we think of the US Navy, the Pacific War the following year, operating thousands and thousands and thousands of miles from its bases and in a self sustaining rolling fleet, supply fleet system, you know that they're miles off. If the Royal Navy is about, part of its power is about Its prestige. We're on this territory, aren't we?
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B
It's the potential threat of the potential kind of damage these Kriegsmarine and surface ships can do, which is winding up the British and getting them in a kind of hot funk. And I think it's the prospect of more than the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Because what you find with these is a lone cruiser can cause X amount of damage. Two can do double what one can do. Four or five or half a dozen can do substantially more than what they can do individually. You know, collectively they definitely add up to more than the sum of their individual parts. So the plan is for all four to work together. So the Scharnhorst and the Knisenau and the new brand new heavy cruiser the Prinze Eugenia and of course the mighty Bismarck. The plan is for them to all work together collectively add up to more than the sum of their individual parts and wreak havoc on allied shipping in the Atlantic. That is the plan.
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A
Right. So before we get to the execution that plan we need to look at the Apfel in the Kriegsmarines Algon, which.
- [14:17]
B
Is.
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A
Which is of course the mighty fabled Bismarck. Join us after the break and we will find out where she was laid down and exactly what she displaced because there might be a bit of rule bending involved. See you in a tick.
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B
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- [15:14]
A
Welcome back to. We have ways of making you talk. Well, we've been talking a lot about the Bismarck or referring to her a great deal. But let's actually, let's have a proper look at this ship launched on Valentine's Day 1939.
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B
You know, and Lutyens, Admiral Lutyens who is, is the commander of this, this surface fleet or surface force I should say is really excited about the possibilities. You know, you know the, the, the, the Scharnhorst and the Knisenau is, is just the starter. It's the amuse bouche of potentially what they can do once they start bringing in the Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen and waiting in the Winds, of course, is the second battleship which is still not ready, which is the Tirpitz. You put them all together, then you know, crikey, just think what we could achieve. And it's that threat that is really starting to play on the nerves of the British. So the British think, well, anytime someone breaks out into the Atlantic, we need to go and stop them and we need to use this opportunity and chuck every, throw everything at it to make sure we sink them and stop them from ever doing it again. Because it's actually very hard to hit these things in fjords or very hard to hit them when they're in, when they're in port actually, because they're so well defended by anti aircraft defenses and all the rest of it. But meeting them out in the oceans when we can bring to bear greater numbers of warships, that's our opportunity. So every time they kind of break out, A, they're affronted by the fact that they've managed to break through the British blockade. B, it's a missed opportunity to sink them there in the Atlantic while they've got the chance. But of course the Atlantic is an absolutely vast place and it's incredibly difficult to catch them. So you need to catch them when you can. And that's basically early when they're confined into comparatively narrow seas like the North Sea or specifically the Denmark Straits. From the British point of view, they've got to react quickly. From the German point of view, they've got to avoid taking on the British fleets which are superior in numbers and firepower at all costs so that they can do what they're supposed to do, which is wreak havoc on Allied convoys.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
But there is of course a massive flaw in all this that, that you've got to get to the killing grounds and you've got to get back from the killing grounds, I. E. The middle of the Atlantic where the convoys are in one piece. And that's, that's the challenge. Every time, every time the Germans try and do something, coordinate this, something goes wrong and it, and it goes wrong again because you know, the Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen have to break free out of the Baltic, which is where they are at the moment, to get out into the Atlantic, then they need to use Brittany as an Atlantic base. And if all four can work together, then they can hammer Allied shipping. But they've got to get to the position where all four are functioning, not in repair docks and are together. And that's quite a challenge.
- [17:58]
A
As if the Royal Navy are just gonna let them do any of this. There's such a heavy, a heavy pinch of wishful thinking in all this. As if the Royal Navy goes, yeah, yeah, you carry on, you know, don't worry about it. Of course we're let you operate at Brest and you know, the fantastical element to the, to the, to the German naval plan, the thinking's pretty half baked, isn't it?
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B
It is. But just think about how many resources the Royal Navy chuck at trying to destroy the Tirpitz before the end of the war. And the Tirpitz never really does anything.
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A
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.
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B
You know, it's just the fact that it exists is, is, is holding down vast amounts of British air and naval resources.
- [18:36]
A
The Bismarck herself then she's built by Blom und Voss in Hamburg and she's launched on St Valentine's Day 1939. Like everything, she's for public consumption, political public consumption. The Nazis declare the launch of state occasion. You've got Hitler, Raeder, Keitel, Goering, Goebbels, Hess, Himmler. I mean your full pack of cards here. Hess, Himmler, Bormann, Ribbentrop. There's bands, there's flags, there's speeches. Dorothea von Lehrnfeld, Bismarck's granddaughter, christens the ship. So she's wrapped up in symbolism. Like everything the Nazis are doing. She's, she's a propaganda statement as much as a piece of military hardware. She's a sixth of a mile long, I mean this fast 120ft wide, which.
- [19:21]
B
Incidentally was pretty much the same length as the Queen Mary 2 that you've just been on.
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A
Of course. Although The Queen Mary 2 doesn't have eight 15 inch guns, doesn't have the six aircraft, doesn't have 13 inch armor of specially hardened Votann steel on the turrets and sides.
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B
I mean if you want, if you want reinforced steel, you're going to call it Votan steel.
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A
Yeah, we've got to call it Votann. Exactly. And what's interesting of course is she's listed at 35,000 tons to comply with, with the London Treaty. Because after all shipbuilding between the wars, it's the equivalent of the sort of the, of the SALT talks, you know, the strategic arms limitations talks. Because battleships are seen as the great, as the great weapon, the great deterrent weapon, the great extending, you know, force extender, aren't they? So, so they're subject to treaty and she's listed at 35,000 tons, but actually she's 42,000 tons in terms of displacement. But when tooled up and ready to go. She's 50,000 tons, which is quite the bending of the rule there. But everyone's doing it, everyone's at it. You're just gonna have to let that go. She's not ready when she's launched in February 39.
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B
Not remotely.
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A
And of course Hitler has started the war before the Kriegsmarine is anything like ready.
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B
Well, yes. And this, this goes back to the kind of fatal flaw of the ZED plan, which is this, you know, we're going to create this great big surface fleet. We're going to have, you know, we're gonna have X and Y and all the rest of it. But then Hitler starts early, before they've done it. So, you know, the Kriegsmariners strategy for the war is, is only, is literally half baked. I mean it's just, it's just not ready up.
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A
They then spend the next 18 months getting her, getting her going, getting her into shape, fitting her out.
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B
Yeah.
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A
She's described as an iron ant heap swarming with dockyard workman. 12 boilers.
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B
Yeah, it's rather good though.
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A
It is rather good. Twelve boilers. Yeah. Four enormous gun turrets. And of course they're not A turret and B turret. C and D turret. No, they're Anton and Bruno Caesar.
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B
Ant hunt. Bruno Caesar and Dora Kaiser.
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A
It makes them sound like, makes it sound like ballroom dancers. You've got Anton Dubeck and Bruno Tonioli.
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B
What gun turret are you in? Arm in Dora.
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A
Oh, really, I'm in Bruno. It's the strictly judges. And she then crews up. In the summer of 1940, with the war well underway and the Kriegsmen are having to adjust to a new world. Volta Lehman is her chief engineer. Wolf Neuendorf is a navigator. Adelbert Schneider is the gunnery commander.
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B
And then the captain. Yes. Captain Ernst Lindemann, who's only 45 years old. He's very experienced. He was at top of his class as a cadet. He's a gunnery specialist. He's a chain smoker and coffee drinker. Blond haired, cool as a cucumber. You know, he's taciturn, you know, he's imperturbable, which is what you want, you know, he's a, he's a good man in a crisis. Very sort of able, competent man. There's a reason why a 45 year old is being entrusted with Germany's only functioning battleship and what has become the largest ship in the world. Battleship in the world. The ship is handed over to his Command only on the 24th of August 1940. I mean remember that launched on the 14th of February 1939. Here we are on the 24th of August. It takes a hell of a long time. The band is playing on the quarter deck. The Nazi ensign is run up and Bismarck is formally commissioned into the Kriegsmarina. But she's still not ready for action because fitting out continues and then you need crews and they need training. Average age of the crews, 21 years old. You know and for vast majority of these Bismarck is their first ship. It just underlines, you know these guys are newbies at this game like the Royal Navy that is brand new in.
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A
Itself, in its new iteration.
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B
Yes, it's brand new, it's brand new. So you know and this, this is reflection of the very, very small navy that Germany had between the wars, you know which people like Lindemann and Luchens and so on and Carls and, and, and higher and all these people that we've mentioned in the last couple of series. Yeah, you're talking about 1400 men, 1500 men on a, on a battleship like Bismarck. So it's, you know, it's a huge recruiting drive that, that has to take place. Like the Royal Navy crew sleeps in hammocks. They ate in different messes. There's no rum ration in the Kriegsmarina but there is a beer ration of course and plus the weekly issue of free cigarettes. And over the next few weeks more and more stores are added. You know, enough to fight battles at sea and keep a crew of yeah, nearly 2,000 going for weeks at a time. And Bismarck only sails for the first time on 15 September 1940. Battle of Britain day. So while those battles are going across this, you know, over London and southeast England, Bismarck is sailing out into the open waters for the first time. Heading down the Elba from dockyard for the dockyard where she was built at Hamburg. And thousands turn out to watch this. They just marvel at what they see. This absolutely enormous, elegant, deadly, seemingly impregnable warship. And someone wrote no German saw her without pride, no neutral or enemy without admiration. You can only gasp at the majesty of this enormous warship. Anyway, the acceptant trials take place in keel bay and she works up to 30 knots. But inevitably some adjustments are needed and Bismarck is then back at Hamburg in the first weeks of December for extensive adjustments. And it's not until March 1941 that Bismarck is ready to take the sea again. So you know, this is a hell of a long time. That's two years after she's launched. Yeah, but there's also a reflection on, on the newness of the Navy, you know that, you know it doesn't take that long to kit out an American battleship.
- [25:07]
A
No, takes like a few weeks.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah but this is all new.
- [25:10]
A
Yeah.
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B
So it's all got to be learned. You know we've got to work out how to do it and the logistics of it and you know, blah blah blah. So, so they do their further trials and kill bay. They're all successful then to the Bay of Danzig, to Gdynia or gotten Halfen as the Germans have renamed it up on what is now the, the Polish Baltic coast. And they do extensive exercises and training and guns are tested for the first time. Arados are catap off the deck to spot the shellfalls and exercises to, you know, to practice mid sea oiling and refueling. And then they're joined by the equally new cruiser, the PRINZ Eugen of 14,000 tons. And the disparity, the kind of, you know, less than half the weight of the Bismarck. You know if you were to see them at distance on the ocean you wouldn't really be able to tell the difference from one to the other. The difference of course is in the armor. Really. Yeah, in terms of sort of scale of display, you know of length, size, width, you know, height off the ocean, all the rest of it that they kind of to the naked eye they look pretty much the same. So the PRINZ Eugen has eight 8 inch guns and could do 32 knots. And the captain is a classmate of Lindemann's, Captain Helmut Brinkman. And one day they practice flooding and steer of the steering gear compartment. And in the Bismarck an ordinary seaman hermit Bloom was on damage control duty and jokes with the, with the lightened asking if he could disobey the orders because if the steering gear compartment was flooded he'd be dead. And the lightner replies quite right, so you had better play dead. Put your caps on back to front, lie down on the deck and everyone will know you are bodies. And after the exercise the lightning says the chances of getting hit there are a hundred thousand against.
- [26:49]
A
Oh dear.
- [26:52]
B
Oh I mean talk about commentators curse.
- [26:55]
A
I mean that's like a thing in a sitcom, isn't it? That's never gonna happen.
- [27:01]
B
That'll never happen.
- [27:04]
A
Now she's basically, she's basically ready. The German naval staff, they issue orders, preparatory orders on 2 April, two weeks after the arrival of Shanhors and Gneisenau at Brest. And so the next new moon period at the end of the month Bismarck Prinz Eugenizing now are to rendezvous for combined attack on Allied shipping in the Atlantic. So everyone's getting their. Yeah, their, their battleship Wet Dreams into fruition. Sean Horst has, however, got.
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B
I am so excited, Admiral.
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A
Exactly. I'm frothing with excitement. Sean Horse has.
- [27:42]
B
Just think what we can do. Such victories we can have on the open seas.
- [27:45]
A
Exactly.
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B
Except. Except there's a big butt.
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A
Yeah. Shanhorse's got a problem with her boiler. Well, they've also got to avoid the Royal Navy and her warships. I mean, that's the. Well, but.
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B
But also the fact that the. Sean Horse is out of action with boiler problem rather sort of, you know, it sort of underlines the lack of. Of wiggle room of contingency in all their plans.
- [28:06]
A
They haven't got any depth to their plans. Redundancy, which is the Royal Navy after all, is like got colossal redundancy built in. Their big problem, the Kriegsmaine, is that they've. They're really vulnerable. You know, you said the. The fjords of Norway and so on are well defended, but breast is. Breast sticks out like a sore thumb at the end of Brittany. And the RAF confined.
- [28:26]
B
Well, it's new as well. It's new. It's another new base.
- [28:28]
A
Yeah. They can find it. They can hit it. The Royal Air Force and. And they're relentless, actually. On the 4th of April, they. They drop bombs on. On number 8 dock where Gneisenau was. Doesn't explode the bomb, but the. But Knysnau is moved to a mooring in the harbor. Then she's struck by RAF Coastal Command. This is Pilot Officer Kenneth Campbell flying a Beaufort. Very, very low.
- [28:52]
B
Amazing.
- [28:53]
A
Despite furious flak. Yes. I discovered his story not so long ago. He gets a VC for this, doesn't he? He goes in very low through the flak, drops a torpedo. Torpedo smashes the propeller shaft, floods two engine rooms and puts Gneisenau out of service for six months. And basically, in order to strike his target, he has to fly in a way that's going to get him killed. So Campbell is unbelievable, incredibly brave and gallant in. That's an extraordinary story that people should go and look up. So now they're down to just the Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen. Tirpitz is almost ready, but not quite. Such is the nature of these things. Raeder could have waited. But the longer you wait, of course, the harder it is not to be struck by the RAF or getting through the blockade. And the Americans might be in the war any minute because pressure's Mounting this actually shows that the really what they've done with these battleships is they put their head in the noose, the Germans, haven't they? In this, the 24th of April, a magnetic mine explodes 100 meters, the Prinz Eugen. It's another two weeks of repairs. So now the earliest they could sail is the new moon.
- [29:56]
B
It's unbelievable.
- [29:57]
A
Yeah, it is, it is. They're not having these problems with U boats, but then the U boats aren't quite delivering. And also, you build a big enough battle, great big battleship, you're going to want to use it. Right. You don't want it skulking in fjords.
- [30:08]
B
Yeah, damn right you are. So raider who is the overall commander in chief of the Kriegsmarine, he wonders whether to postpone, doesn't he thinks, you know, should we, what do we do? Wait for the Tirpitz? Not wait, you know, what do we do? But, you know, we've got this fleet, we've got to use them, you know, can't just keep postponing it all the time. So he consults the fleet commander, who is Admiral Gunther Lutjens, of course. And Lutjens is another of these sort of imperturbable types. He's 51 years old. He's lean, he's clean shaven, cropped hair, looks completely humorless, but actually does have a kind of, a little bit of a dry sense of humor. He's joined the naval college at Kiel in 1908, passes out 20th out of a class of 160. He's in Torpedo boats in the First World War or Flanders in the Channel. And in the summer of 1940, he deputizes for Admiral Marshall as fleet commander during the Norwegian campaign. And despite losing so many ships during the Norwegian campaign, is awarded the Knight's Cross and then promoted. Oh, I mean, yeah. Anyway, he isn't a Nazi. He's not a Nazi party. He's known to kind of not really approve of the regime, and yet here he is doing Hitler's bidding and all the rest of it. So, you know, I've always been dubious of that kind of claim. Yeah. But anyway, he's taciturn, austere, totally dedicated to the German Navy, and he always wears a Dirk of the Imperial Navy, not a Nazi one.
- [31:29]
A
Yeah, yeah, same difference.
- [31:31]
B
He's a sort of hard person to get to know, but he's widely considered very competent, very able, dedicated. Only gets married at the age of 40 and now has two children with third on the way.
- [31:41]
A
Right.
- [31:42]
B
And he's Very, very fatalistic about this operation. He just can't see how, you know, they might get away with one mission into the Atlantic, maybe two. But, but, but you know, he thinks it's, it's a bit like you know, the crew of the, of the B17 in the autumn of 1943. You know, the odds are stacked against you and you're going to come a cropper, you know, they just can't continue to ride their luck and against the might of the Royal Navy. So he, he, he's very sort of fatalistic.
- [32:08]
A
But you got to go because you got to go because you got to go so.
- [32:11]
B
Because he's dedicated, you know.
- [32:13]
A
And he tells Raider to postpone until the Tirpit is ready. But Raider thinks that they're up against it. Time wise ignores his advice. Lutyens tells his friend Admiral Conrad Patsig who's now the head of personnel. He says I realize that in this unequal struggle between the British Navy and ourselves I shall sooner or later have to lose my life. But I have settled my private affairs and I shall do my best to carry my orders with honor. You want fatalism? There it is. That's it right there.
- [32:40]
B
Some of the decisions he makes in Reinubung, Operation Reinubung, you can see that fatalism coming into those decisions. Yeah, I think.
- [32:49]
A
Yeah, yeah. So he, he flies up to gotten Halfen with his staff. His chief of staff is Captain Harald Netzbund who's the former captain of Gneisenau. And Reinubing is going to start on 18 May. Hitler on 5 May and his staff, they go to Gdynia to gotten Halfen to inspect Bismarck and the Tirpitz. The Fuhrer goes aboard the Bismarck. The crew lined up. Hitler's piped on. You can imagine you're enjoying this, can't you? Inspected the crew then visited Lutyen's captain, although he's actually nervous about Bismarck sailing because he's worried about it, what might happen to her. Because it's classic Hitler, isn't it? Isn't it? Is that he wants the toys but he doesn't want them to lose the toys, you know.
- [33:31]
B
Well, and everyone knows about the Bismarck. Everyone's heard of it.
- [33:33]
A
Yeah.
- [33:33]
B
I mean you know, it is internationally famous already because of this huge battleship, this sort of expression of German military might, blah blah blah blah.
- [33:40]
A
Well just we're talking about the Royal Navy in terms of prestige. When you've got a tiny navy and the, and a great big battleship, it's literally a prestige project and you don't want any damage to that. The tangle they get themselves in because they're led not by strategic necessity or tactical thinking in Germany it's part of the endless problem isn't it really that they're never thinking straight. Use this steel for U boats you fools. Obviously he's worried about torpedo carrying aircraft. He wouldn't be as worried if Goering had been more helpful. It's all the usual like na na na. All the usual Hitler, Hitler natter isn't it? If only this and if only that and I've been let down on this and if the graph Zeppelin, if the aircraft carrier was finished things would be.
- [34:26]
B
Better and if only the grass was just a little bit greener on the other side of the fence.
- [34:30]
A
Exactly. As if the Royal Navy would just let an air, a German aircraft carrier tool about and do what it wanted. I mean it's the other thing, you know, the enemy having a vote here. And Lutchin says yes, of course enemy aircraft are a threat. But he assures Hitler that the Bismarck has the firepower to cope. The Bismarck, she has the firepower to cope very well. On the 16th of May 1941 sulky Hitler gets back in his train. Lutyens reports that the squadron is ready to sail from midnight to the 18th and 19th of May, time and tide permitting. Over the next two days support vessels sail from French Atlantic ports and from Norway to take up waiting positions. So they're stringing out the supporting vessels like a sort of daisy chain to get them to where they need to. Two tankers in the Arctic, two recce ships, two more tankers to the Azores. Sunday 18 May. Lutyens holds a final conference in his cabin with a start with his staff officers, with Lindemann and Brinkmann. There's an operational brief from Admiral Karls of Naval Group Command north which recommends sailing.
- [35:35]
B
Remember him?
- [35:35]
A
Yeah. Yes, exactly. Which recommends sailing direct from Korsfjord near Bergen, lie up for a day while the Prinz Eugen refuels and then head for Atlantic through the Pharaoh's Iceland gap. And refueling is such an important part of this story as it is to come. But Lutjens decides against it. He obviously thinks no, there's no point doing that. I'm gonna die. He's not gonna go to Corsfield.
- [36:00]
B
Well yes there's that. But he also knows that the key to getting into the Atlantic is to move quickly before the British can react. That's the point. The Home Fleet is all based up in Scapa Flow. He just wants to go under the radar. And refueling means a pause and a pause means more chance for the British to find out.
- [36:20]
A
And although he doesn't know about Henry Denham, you know, in Stockholm in his flak in Redgarten in Stockholm, it's not.
- [36:27]
B
Rocket science to work out that someone's going to spot you.
- [36:28]
A
Yeah. And especially if you're sailing the world's.
- [36:30]
B
Biggest battleship through very narrow, you know, Baltic Straits basically is what you're doing. I mean, you know why they don't sail from the Kiel Canal and go straight into the North Sea is mystifying. Yeah. Because then you can avoid going around the Kattegat and you know, around the narrow channels between Norway and Denmark.
- [36:49]
A
So the Eugen leaves first. Bismarck follows on the 18th. There's a band playing them off singing Mussi Den Must I Leave on the quayside. They meet up with the destroyers at 11 the next day off the Baltic coast at midday, Lutyens addresses the Bismarck's crew over the last speaker. I give you the hunter's toast. Good hunting and a good bag. This is your captain out.
- [37:19]
B
I'm feeling inspired.
- [37:20]
A
And she set sail. And we will return in part two for her passage through the North Sea.
- [37:25]
B
Yes. Well join us in episode two of the Hood and Bismarck where we will be following the Bismarck's passage up the coast of Norway and what the Royal Navy do in response.
- [37:38]
A
Because the Royal Navy's gonna respond. Come on. The Kriegsmarine. The enemy gets a vote. Jim, I don't know about you, but I'm looking at the tea leaves and I'm seeing a sticky end for the business mark here. I don't want to, I don't want to jump the gun. I don't want to offer spoilers, but I can see it not working out.
- [37:56]
B
Right, well, let's wait and see. We don't want to kind of, you know, spoil it too much for all those, all those comments about steering gear and stuff. I mean it feels like it's tempting fate, doesn't it?
- [38:04]
A
Go to our. We have ways making you talk Patreon where you, you can become a member of an exclusive club of other people afflicted with an interest. The Second World War. You can get offers on stuff, you can get audiobooks and of course a regular live cast with James and me doing this exact kind of Vorwaffel on your screen at home. Usually on a Monday evening. Every other Monday anyway.
- [38:25]
B
And if you just don't want the adverts, you can join the offices.
- [38:27]
A
Exactly. Yeah. On on Apple on Apple Podcast podcast. But good hunting and a good bag. We'll see you soon. With the passage through the North Sea of the Bismarck.
- [38:35]
B
Cheerio Alvida Z. Martha listens to her favorite band all the time.
- [38:50]
A
In the car, gym, even sleeping.
- [38:56]
B
So when they finally went on tour, Martha bundled her flight and hotel on Expedia to see them live. She saved so much she got a.
- [39:02]
A
Seat close enough to actually see and hear them. Sort of.
- [39:07]
B
You were made to scream from the front row.
- [39:09]
A
We were made to quietly save you. More Expedia made to travel savings vary.
- [39:14]
B
And subject to availability.
- [39:15]
A
Flight inclusive packages are atoll protected so.
- [39:18]
B
What'S really going on between Donald Trump and Venezuela right now? I'm Gordon Carrera, national security journalist. And I'm David McCloskey, author and former CIA analyst. And we together are the hosts of the Rest Is Classified. In our latest emergency episodes, we go deep into the inside track of what's really going on in the spy war in Venezuela. And we're looking at how, with the help of the CIA, Donald Trump has managed to oust Venezuela's leader. So get the full insider scoop by listening to the Rest Is Classified. Wherever you get your podcasts.