How the Navy Learned to Fly: Stringbags (Part 1)

Summary

Podcast Summary

WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk

Episode: How the Navy Learned to Fly: Stringbags (Part 1)
Release Date: December 9, 2025
Hosts: Al Murray (Comedian), James Holland (Historian)

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Main Theme & Episode Purpose

This episode delves into the origins and evolution of British naval aviation, focusing on the Fleet Air Arm and the iconic Fairey Swordfish ("Stringbag") aircraft. Al and James trace the intertwined histories of the Royal Navy and aviation, spotlighting the innovation that led to WW2’s pivotal naval air operations—culminating in the planning for the raid on Taranto (Operation Judgment). With lively banter and deep expertise, they challenge misconceptions about the Fleet Air Arm's perceived obsolescence and celebrate its technological breakthroughs.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Fleet Air Arm and Swordfish

• The episode opens with a tongue-in-cheek sea shanty about the Swordfish, setting a light, enthusiastic tone.
  Quote:
  “If it weren't for King George's Swordfish, where the hell would the Royal Navy be?” — Al Murray & James Holland ([02:08])

• The hosts admit this is their first deep dive into the Royal Navy’s Fleet Air Arm.

• The Swordfish—visually antiquated by WW2—was, in fact, an aircraft with a storied, and surprisingly effective, service history.

2. Deep Roots: Naval Aviation’s Genesis

• Historical Context: The Fleet Air Arm’s roots trace back to the early 1910s; the Royal Navy recognized aviation’s value from the outset—for reconnaissance, submarine spotting, mine protection, and artillery spotting.

• Quote:
  “The Admiralty…from the start…the minute aviation comes along, the Admiralty has its eye on aviation.” — Al Murray ([04:51])

• Early tensions: the creation of the Royal Flying Corps and subsequent debates about whether naval aviation should be controlled by the Navy or an independent air service.

• Winston Churchill’s personal role as First Lord of the Admiralty is highlighted, especially his advocacy for an independent naval air arm ([08:43]).

3. WWI Innovations and Birth of the Aircraft Carrier

• The Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS) in WWI demonstrates innovation: deploying airships, seaplanes, and the world’s first aircraft carrier.

• Daring rescues, the development of aerial torpedoes, and the use of aircraft in artillery spotting are discussed (“eyes in the sky”).

• Britain invents and pioneers the aircraft carrier concept, converting existing ships (including one meant for Italy!) and leading with HMS Argus and HMS Furious ([13:55]).

• Quote:
  “We are the first. We're pioneers. We invent it, we pioneer it, we drive it. And we're the best.” — Al Murray ([13:57])

4. Interwar Challenges & The Swordfish Emerges

• Post-WWI, the Navy briefly loses control of its air assets to the new Royal Air Force, stifling innovation and identity.

• International treaties (Washington 1922) limit naval expansion, but all sides maneuver to maintain naval aviation capability.

• Inter-service rivalry persists: the Air Ministry (led by “Bomber” Trenchard) prioritizes bombing over naval air power, marginalizing naval aviators ([25:14]).

• Despite this, the Fairy Swordfish is developed—praised as rugged, adaptable, and, crucially, “fit for purpose.”

• Quote:
  “What we've got to do is not succumb to the idea that biplanes in the 1930s are some sort of prehistoric relic.” — Al Murray ([27:10])
  “They're damn good on aircraft carriers because they don't need much room to take off and land.” — James Holland ([27:11])

5. Swordfish and Fleet Air Arm on Eve of WW2

• By 1939, the Royal Navy regains operational control over the Fleet Air Arm; new carriers are rapidly being commissioned ([30:12]).
• At the war’s outset, the Fleet Air Arm is small but expanding—13 operational Swordfish squadrons, with new carriers Illustrious, Formidable, and Victorious coming online ([30:43]).
• The role of the Swordfish is reevaluated: not obsolete, but specialized and highly effective in anti-submarine warfare and other naval roles.

6. First Combat Lessons: Mers-el-Kébir and Dakar

• The hosts recount Britain’s attacks on the French fleet after the fall of France to prevent it from falling into Axis hands, notably the action at Dakar.

• Swordfish are used to attack the battleship Richelieu in harbor—demonstrating that slow, maneuverable aircraft are ideal for such strikes ([41:41]).

• Lessons learned: torpedoes run too deep and too fast for harbor attacks; modifications are developed accordingly. The importance of running at slower, more stable speeds for stationary targets is underscored.

• Quote:
  “Proof of concept—attacking ships in harbor with Swordfish works.” — Al Murray ([43:10])

7. Planning Taranto: The Pinnacle of Ambition

• The concept of striking a fleet at harbor (“doing a Nelson,” as Al jokes, referencing historical British naval raids) is deeply ingrained in Royal Navy strategy.

• Long-standing plans for a Taranto attack are dusted off and modernized as the Italian Navy becomes Britain’s main Mediterranean rival ([34:01], [36:24]).

• Extensive operational planning begins for Operation Judgment, with leadership like Captain Boyd and Commander “Streamline” Robertson at the helm.

• The operation requires intricate logistics, surprise, and technological adaptation; setbacks (fires, aircraft losses, mechanical failures) threaten to derail preparations but the plan persists.

• Noteworthy: “Fulmars” (carrier-borne fighters) are instrumental in providing air superiority during these operations.

• Memorable exchange:
  “At the briefing, one of the observers, Blood Scarlet…says, 'Don’t let’s waste valuable time talking about the return journey.' Stoic society, straight in.” — Al Murray ([65:20])

8. The Italian Fleet—The Target

• James provides a detailed inventory of the Italian fleet anchored at Taranto: battleships, cruisers, destroyers, submarines, torpedo boats—a “rich bounty” ([57:16]).
• The upcoming attack’s challenge: keep the Italian fleet in port until the moment of strike.

9. Operation MB8 and the Deception Plan

• Operation Judgment (Taranto raid) is part of a wider operation (MB8), involving multiple convoys and deception moves to bamboozle Italian naval intelligence ([58:41]).
• Even post-war, Italians could not make sense of the British operational intricacies without British explanation.
• The original strike date (Trafalgar Day) is delayed by technical hitches, but is rescheduled for November 11, aligning with favorable moonlight.
• Technical improvisations and last-minute heroics (e.g., Lieutenant George Going’s determination to join the mission) punctuate the buildup to the raid.

10. Cliffhanger Ending

• The episode ends just before the Swordfish launch for Taranto, with the Italian fleet unsuspecting and the British poised to deliver a historic blow ([65:33]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the innovation of naval aviation:
  “Here’s the Navy, inventing what’s going to be power projection for the rest of the 20th century into the 21st.” — Al Murray ([14:20])
• On British naval identity:
  “You declinists…stick that in your declinist pipe and smoke it!” — Al Murray ([14:36])
• On Swordfish Doctrine:
  “It’s the helicopter before the helicopter…what you want is a mixture of different aircraft that can do different things.” — James Holland ([28:24])
• On technical adaptation:
  “The crucial lesson they learn is that the torpedoes are too fast. Right? The torpedoes run at 40 knots and are better off running more steady at 27 knots.” — Al Murray ([43:52])
• On the Royal Navy’s ethos:
  “Gentlemen, I have called you together for—I want your advice on how best we can best annoy the enemy.” — Admiral Cunningham, quoted by Al Murray ([50:41])
• On the sheer scale of the Italian fleet at Taranto:
  “That is a rich bounty if ever there was one.” — James Holland ([57:35])
• Stoic humor:
  “Don’t let’s waste valuable time talking about that [the return journey].” — Blood Scarlet, observer ([65:20])
• On the episode's climatic pause:
  “And if that’s not a cliffhanger, I don’t know what is.” — James Holland ([65:33])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:08 — Fleet Air Arm sea shanty; setting the episode's theme
• 03:55–06:41 — The historical impetus for naval aviation
• 09:01–10:30 — Churchill, the early days of British naval aviation, and WWI lessons
• 13:55–16:31 — Britain invents and pioneers aircraft carriers; pride in innovation
• 24:42–25:36 — The interwar organizational mess and rivalry over air assets
• 27:10–29:04 — The case for biplanes and the attributes of the Swordfish
• 41:41–43:10 — Swordfish strike at Dakar: operational lessons
• 50:41–51:56 — Admiral Cunningham’s “how best can we annoy the enemy?” speech; planning intensifies
• 57:16–58:41 — Detailed inventory of the Italian fleet at Taranto harbor
• 58:41–62:13 — Operational complexity and setbacks before the Taranto raid
• 65:20–65:33 — Observer’s dry wit at the briefing (“don’t waste time on the return”); closing build to the next episode

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Tone and Style

• The hosts expertly blend humor, affection for their topic, and authoritative analysis.
• Frequent playful jibes and references to British naval tradition, stoicism, and dry wit.
• Passion for the technical innovation and underappreciated aspects of military history shines throughout.

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Summary for the Uninitiated

This episode provides an engaging and thorough primer on British naval aviation’s origins and the development of carrier warfare leading up to World War II. Al and James reveal how much of what’s often considered “old-fashioned” was actually revolutionary—and how the much-mocked Swordfish proved vital at a moment of destiny for the Royal Navy. With colorful anecdotes, clear technical explanations, and lively banter, they make the run-up to the Taranto raid both accessible and compelling, leaving listeners eager for the climactic events of Part 2.

Transcript

[Al Murray]

Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com we haveways.

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[Al Murray]

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[James Holland]

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[Al Murray]

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[James Holland]

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[Al Murray]

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[Al Murray]

My string bag flies over the ocean.

[James Holland]

My stringback flies over the sea.

[Al Murray]

If it weren't for King George's swordfish.

[James Holland]

Where the hell would the Royal Navy be?

Ah, beautiful sea shanty to start off with.

[Al Murray]

I think that's the. I think that's the first time in 9 million episodes, Jim, that we have.

[James Holland]

Sung my own view is I think we should be doing it more.

[Al Murray]

And that, of course, that, of course, is the not altogether ironic song of the Fleet Air Arm, who at the start of the Second World War, as I'm sure many the casual enthusiasts for the Second World War, will know, that the Fleet Air Arm was equipped with Fairey Swordfish, which was a biplane that they used for bombing and torpedo dive, bombing, torpedo runs and all this sort of stuff that at a glance appears entirely out of time and yet has a garlanded history in service with the Fleet Air Arm. And the thing is, so welcome to we have Ways of Making youg Talk With Me, Al Murray and James Holland. And we we've gone Navy. And we're not just going. We're going deeper, aren't we, Jim? Because we've never done much Navy, which certainly means we've never done any Fleet Air Arm. Just. We've just not done it, have we?

[James Holland]

Well, we're, We're. We're. We're doing a whole load of Navy now, aren't we? And quite right, too. And I'm. I, for one, I'm very excited about it. I think it's great.

[Al Murray]

The Fleet Air Arm is interesting because where it sits in the history of the Royal Navy and where it then sits in the history of aviation and military aviation on the British side, its roots run deep. And in fact, the thing we're going to end up talking about, which I think is the finest hour of the Swordfish, which is the raid on Taranto, Operation Judgment has deep, deep roots in naval aviation history. And so we're going to look at that. We're going to look at where the Fleet Air Arm comes from, what it is. What the Navy.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

What the Navy wants from it. What then befalls the fleet. The. The Royal Naval Air Service, as it. As it is originally. What then befalls it and then how it returns to the. Its crowning moment of. Of credibility, really, at Taranto in November of 1940.

[James Holland]

In fact, we're having a little bit of a history lesson, aren't we? And, in fact, we're actually. We're going. We're going backwards in time. We're going pre1939. How about that, people?

[Al Murray]

I know, and there may be howls of wrong war, but one of the things.

[James Holland]

Hold on to your horses.

[Al Murray]

Well, but one of the things I think is quite interesting, one of the things we did talk about, we were looking at the. The Atlantic War, was that the First World War isn't that long ago In. In the grand scheme of things. No, it. During the Second World War, It's. It's. What is it? It's. It's only 21 years since the end of the First World War, so its footprint sits heavy.

[James Holland]

Not even that.

[Al Murray]

Not even that. Exactly.

[James Holland]

Not even that.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. It's not even that.

[James Holland]

So not quite 21.

[Al Murray]

Not quite 21 years. So. So which actually, when you think about it, is not very long ago.

[James Holland]

You know, I mean, I've been married for 30. Well, there we are.

[Al Murray]

Well, nine. Eleven. Nine. Eleven is longer ago. So, you know, if you want to place it. Yeah. Sort of temporal context. And so the. The Fleet Air Arm has deep roots, the Admiralty, right from the start. The minute aviation comes along, the Admiralty has its eye on aviation because, of course, The Admiralty would, you know, the Admiralty is job is to defend the home islands. Its job is to extend British power throughout the world. So what we've got to do is dispel the idea that the First World War is old and old fashioned. It's about cutting edge technology and the Admiralty, the mini aviation.

[James Holland]

Well and it particularly is by the way in the navy, isn't it? Exactly, that's the point.

[Al Murray]

Exactly.

[James Holland]

And the Navy, the navy's a senior service, it's always been. But the Navy has always been the part of the, of the, of of Britain's defenses which is at the most cutting edge, I would argue.

[Al Murray]

Absolutely. It has the money to spend and the, and the.

[James Holland]

Always has been open mind since the 17th century. The overhaul of the.

[Al Murray]

Exactly.

[James Holland]

Of the, of the navy in the restoration period.

[Al Murray]

Exactly, exactly.

[James Holland]

And so this is, this is peeps and stuff, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. Well and then through, through, through Nelson and you've got, you know, Harrison defining longitude and all that sort of stuff. The technological cutting edge of. Yes, of the British state is the, you know, nascent British state. Anyway, so when, when aviation comes along, the Admiralty knows what it wants from flying. It wants reconnaissance of enemy ports, reconnaissance of the area surrounding a fleet at sea, location of submarines, protection of minefields.

[James Holland]

Which are now a thing by the way.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And spotting the fall of shot for the guns of the fleet. Because after all the ranges are increasing, you might be firing on a target you can't get a clear look at. So the idea is a plane goes up and does the spotting for you and this.

[James Holland]

Well just, just think about that though, just think about it. Suddenly you're in a navy and you've suddenly got one of your big problems answered for you, which is you've got somewhat, you've got eyes in the sky. Yeah, yeah, bingo.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

I mean of course that's going to be fantastic, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Exactly. And you look at these, these, this shopping list, it's analogous with drones now, isn't it? I mean. Yeah, except that, except they're manned and I mean the last one has changed now I expect spotting the fall of shot for the guns of the fleet. But the other four, reconnaissance of enemy ports, I mean that's a sat. You do that with a satellite now. But these problems remain the same for extension of naval power. And so the fact that the Admiralty right away is onto this. So in 1912 the Naval Air arm begins to emerge. But the Asquith government is responding to the new technology in its own way. And it wants one single Royal Flying Core to make it cheaper. So the pilots will train to the same place, essentially. Trained. They're interchangeable. The Admiralty is not happy with this.

[James Holland]

Wigs, eh?

[Al Murray]

Exactly, exactly, exactly. And also, you know, Westminster thinking, how can we chisel a few quid off this? Because. Because after all, you do. I mean, this is the period where really the Admiralty is in charge of.

[James Holland]

Yeah. So they're. They're thinking economies of scale. Let's just have one.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And the Admiralty, the Amity, is not happy with this. They want control of their own assets and traditionally they've always had control of their own assets. So. So it's quite understandable that they're. That they're not happy about this. And this initial problem then dogs the business of naval air essentially forever. You know, we've got RAF F35 flight or, you know, flying off. Off the carriers now, because who's in charge of the aerial strike is still. Is still a bone of contention within the services. Right. So on the first of July, still is, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So first of July, 1914, the first Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill, decides that the Navy does need.

[James Holland]

As in Winston Churchill.

[Al Murray]

Winston Churchill. Right. Who at the start of the Second World War.

Is also. It occupies the same position. Right. He knows that the Navy does.

[James Holland]

It's only 24 years.

[Al Murray]

It's only 24 years. Right.

[James Holland]

What's 25 years?

[Al Murray]

What's the difference? Right.

[James Holland]

Nothing.

[Al Murray]

He thinks the Navy needs its own air service and you've got to work. It's worth bearing in mind that Churchill has learned to fly himself, so he's abreast of the technology.

[James Holland]

Well. And nearly killed himself as well, by the way.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, nearly killed himself in a flying accident. Right. So at the start of the first world war in 1914, the Royal Naval Air Service has seven airships, 52 seaplanes and 39 aircraft with a personnel strength of approximately 138 officers and 600 men. Right. And.

[James Holland]

And airships are also known as dirigibles, aren't they?

[Al Murray]

Such a fantastic, great word for it. Yeah. But that's. So that's basically at the start of the First World War, it's this nascent service. It's got to figure out what it's about, what it's for, and, and what we'll. What we'll find is, at the start of the Second World War, it's kind of in the same position all over again. But part of the problem that then develops as the First World War pans out is that the Admiralty has also put defence of the home islands on its sort of shopping list of roles. And the Royal Flying Corps job is fighting in France tactically with the army and then an extension of that, tactical air power with the army in France. That means that the Royal Naval Air Service is fatally split between its naval tasks. Has to prioritize. So anti submarine warfare quickly discovers its limits. And you've got airships getting through and they have real problems meeting the competing demands. And that's why you end up in the end with, with Fighter Command defending England, the Royal Air Force having swallowed up that role by the time the Second World War comes around.

[James Holland]

But, but, but, but to be fair, that makes sense by then, doesn't it?

[Al Murray]

Does it? Makes, it makes complete sense. Yeah. Despite all this, that the Navy's air war, it's endless innovation. Right, so with the torpedo in the Dardanelle, which as we all know is synonymous with allied failure, on 12 August 1915, Flight Commander CHK Edmonds, in a short seaplane with a 14 inch torpedo slung under its fuselage, released it against a 5,000 ton Turkish supply ship lying off in Jinburnu and she sinks. So, you know, proof of concept with the torpedo right there.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah. Shape of things to come.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Five, five days later, two more ships. You've also got rescue. Right. So on the 19th of November, when Squadron Commander Arbel Davis is flying a single seater Neuport aircraft, Good name that, isn't it? It's very strong. He lands in enemy territory and under fire, rescues a pilot of another aircraft which has been obliged to force landed. He wins the VC for that. So, you know, breakthroughs, gallantry, spotting.

[James Holland]

But how does he pick out the other guy in a, in a single seater? God knows.

[Al Murray]

Sits him in his lap or sits him on the wing and tells him to hold on.

[James Holland]

I mean, I don't know, straps him to the fuselage. Yeah, you hold on, Chat.

[Al Murray]

We're gonna take off now. It's crazy.

[James Holland]

I'll do my best, sir. Yes, exactly. They're in the Stoke Society.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. You've got me out of a. Quite the jam here, sir. Thank you. I suppose also.

[James Holland]

Yeah, that's all right.

[Al Murray]

If you need a witness for a Victoria Cross, which of course you do. Right, there's your, there's your witnesses.

[James Holland]

Someone clinging to the fuselage is probably.

As good a witness.

Absolutely amazing. And then the spotting isn't there?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

So there's reconnaissance. Yeah, yeah.

[Al Murray]

As we said, spotting for the.

[James Holland]

So off the coast of German East Africa, let's face it, it's a world war, people.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Where the cruiser Konigsberg, that's a German cruiser.

After a brief cruise as a raider in the Indian Ocean, this has taken refuge in the delta of the Rufiji river, beyond the range of the guns of a watching British cruiser. So it's destroyed by fire from shallow draft monitors. A short sea. So this is short, as in the company short seaplane spotting brought from Bombay and flown by Flight Lt. J.D. cullen with Sub Lt. H.J. arnold as his observer. Yeah, I mean that's, that's a stretch, isn't it, coming from Bombay.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, they've flown over, they popped, they've refueled, they've kept coming. It's absolutely incredible, this.

[James Holland]

I mean, Limburg, eat your heart out.

[Al Murray]

I mean, exactly, you know, exact. Well, exactly in the fleet, in the Royal Naval Air Service, you have an observer in the aircraft, and we'll see this late in the next war who's basically the navigator, but it's his job to spot the fall of the shot. Because a shallow draft monitor is a light gunship or it's a small ship with a big gun on it that can come in nice and close and do indirect fire onto a target. And so this is what the Admiralty wanted to be able to do this, you know, for better delivery of its firepower. Then what happens on the. This reorganization starts occurring. So on the 31st of January, 1917, there's an additional member of the board of the Admiralty known as the Fifth Sea Lord, who has responsibility for all matters affecting naval aviation. And this leads directly to the aircraft carrier. Let's just get some things straight because.

[James Holland]

We'Re the first, aren't we?

[Al Murray]

We are the first. Right?

[James Holland]

We're the first.

[Al Murray]

We're the first.

[James Holland]

We're pioneers.

[Al Murray]

We invent it, we pioneer it, we drive it. Right. And, and we're the best. Well, we are the best, Jim. And the thing is, this is. The thing is, this is the first World War, which is seen in people's minds as stuck, as old fashioned, as fuddy duddy. You know, when people talk about the Western Front, the long learning curve of the General Melchett. Well, here's the Navy, like inventing what, what's going to be power projection for the rest of the 20th century into the 21st. You know, the fact that Chinese now have aircraft carriers, it's given people conniptions. Well, here we are more than 100 years earlier with the, with the British. Where's our.

[James Holland]

Thanks for that? Yeah, that's What I want to know exactly.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, Declining. You declinists. Yeah. Stick that in your declinist pipe and smoke it. Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know you can have your. You can stick your. US Gerald Ford.

I mean it may be the largest aircraft carrier in the world, but who invented it?

[Al Murray]

Yes, exactly. And this was our fine friends in the Royal Navy. Our fine friends of the Royal Navy, the Admiralty. Right. And, and they do this. They. And I think there's some irony for Taranto to come is that the first. It's a merchant vessel that's been built for the Italians which is called the Conte Rosso and she's fitted with a flush deck for planes.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

So the future has arrived. She's renamed HMS Argus and she carries on service into the next war. Right. You also have HMS Furious who's an unarmored battlecruiser. Don't ask what that might be. I mean we've got enough of. I've had so many, by the way.

[James Holland]

By the way, just to interject here, of course. Of course. The Italian Conti Rosso was then replaced by a new Conti Rosso which was then sunk by Upholder in May 1941.

[Al Murray]

These. You see this is. I mean what we, what we're showing demonstrating here is the First World War and the Second World were much closer together than did perhaps.

[James Holland]

Everything connects.

[Al Murray]

Everything connects, exactly. So isn't that.

[James Holland]

Was that E.M. forster?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, I think. Yes, it was, yeah. Yes, yes, something like that, wasn't it? Howard's End or passenger. I don't know. But there's a. There's basically she's an unarmed battle cruiser and we don't. Not going to get into battle cruiser pocket battleship stuff this morning.

[James Holland]

We're not having that debate.

[Al Murray]

No, we're not having that debate at all. She has.

[James Holland]

What we're gonna do is we're gonna. We're gonna invite Chris Gattonby to come on on a live stream and put this all to bed for once and for all because he knows. Get. Get Chris and Steve Prince on.

[Al Murray]

All right.

[James Holland]

They could, they can come and explain it to everybody.

[Al Murray]

They can have a. They can have their bun fight. And she's fitted. She has her front gun turret removed and replaced with a flying deck and a hangar. And on 3rd August 1917, Squadron Commander E.H. dunning, DSC makes the first ever landing of a wheel fitted aircraft on a ship at sea. I mean he's killed two days later, trying again.

[James Holland]

Wow. I mean he's killed Tick. Cool day. Oh my God. I'm not laughing I'm just sort of. Well I am laughing but I'm just thinking, just imagine going right then, Dunning, we want you to come and land on this ship. Are you happy to do that? Well, I'll give him my best shot, sir. I bet he was in the stoic society.

[Al Murray]

Well, you know, you've done it. You have to prove, I mean the.

[James Holland]

Whole idea of landing a plane. Plane on a ship.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. And this is the thing that I think starts to come forward certainly in the story of the Fleet Air on the Second World War is these pilots are of quite a different caliber. I think what they're capable of. But it's that thing, isn't it? Now Dunning, prove it wasn't a fluke, do it again. Yes, sir. Jumps in, plane is killed.

You know. Also in 1917 the Admiralty decides to adapt the Chilean battleship the Almiron to Cochrane which is built. Which is being built in Clydeside and she's given a through deck atop everything of course.

[James Holland]

So this is a, you know, that battleship we are building for you. We've decided to cancel that contract. We're gonna keep it ourselves.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. Quite a lot of that going on, isn't there?

[James Holland]

But that's, that's what you can do when you, you know, when you rule the seas and. Yeah, you're the senior service. Yeah.

[Al Murray]

The predominant.

[James Holland]

Just tell the Chileans where to, where to get off.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Predominant global power. We'll build you, we'll build you another one later but we need this now. And, and that's got the through deck on top of everything else. Not an armored deck but a through deck and an island which, which has the bridge and the wheelhouse on the starboard side. It's on the starboard side due to prop torque and drift that an aircraft will turn left as she pulls away with a, with a. The rotation of a propeller and turn to port. So obviously you put the island starboard so that the planes won't fly into it.

[James Holland]

Another British invention, another British invention. Another British design. British design, British innovation that's been maintained ever since.

[Al Murray]

Ever since. British pragma solution to an immediate problem as well. And she's launched on the 8th of June 1918 under the name HMS Eagle. And she will carry on to play a part. Yes. In Royal Navy air operations from then.

[James Holland]

On until August 1942.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Comes HMS Hermes which is a carrier built from the keel up. Yes.

[James Holland]

So this is the first purpose built.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, that's the first purpose built aircraft carrier. That's the aircraft carry folks. And there's look, there's four of them already. The British have invented it. So what are they going to do with it? Well, so it's obvious, the through.

[James Holland]

So what's a through deck? The through deck is just a deck that just goes from one end to.

[Al Murray]

The other, one end to the other. Because. Because, because the Argus only has a flush deck at the front. So a shorter, a shorter through deck. It doesn't have a three deck. Yeah. And stopping the planes when they land however, remains unsolved.

[James Holland]

There goes Charlie off the edge.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Well done.

[James Holland]

Sorry sir, I just didn't apply my brakes in time.

[Al Murray]

Right. And Sopwith submits a design for a torpedo carrying plane. The Cuckoo. So and, and that isn't ready until October 1918. But basically what you see here is this. All the seeds of what the Admiralty are going to then grow and develop when the Second World War comes. They're permanently pushing the idea of aerial warfare, its possibilities and its potentials. Abu Beatty conceives of a mass torpedo plane raid on the German fleet by the time the war ends. His plan for 1919 is basically we'll attack the German harbor at the German fleet in harbor in port with torpedo aircraft.

[James Holland]

Well from, in 19 I think. Is it March 1918, I think it is.

[Al Murray]

That.

[James Holland]

Biplanes fly off from, from Argus and attack the Zeppelin bases in Schleswig Holstein.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[James Holland]

So, so which is now in Denmark but at the time was in Germany.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. So the aspiration, I've been there actually. Really?

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

But the aspiration is to attack a fleet at anchor, you know, which is Copenhagen, isn't it? Which is Nelsonian tactics but delivered by new technology. There's a fly in the ointment here. The Navy for all of this incredible innovation and basically laying the foundations of aerial warfare at sea forever. Right. Is the formation of the Royal Air Force, 1 April 1918 in which the RNAS, the, the Royal Flying Corps, the Royal Naval Air Force Service emerged. Right. And after the, and then the subsequent scaling down, the raf, the Royal Navy loses control of its assets, its pilots with all their sea flying experience. They're simply absorbed into a con, into a competing service as it's as, as it's seen. Right. So that's where, that's where four years hardcore innovation gets you is someone at, someone in Whitehall goes well actually we'll merge you with some other people. I mean even when there's a war on and all that, you know.

[James Holland]

Yeah, then, yeah, yeah, yeah, then it's not a good idea, is it?

[Al Murray]

No. I mean. Or it's strikes me as sort of perverse. Then there's the interwar period. And for those of you who haven't had the opportunity yet to read the Visionaries, James's book that's coming next year. A key feature of international relations is naval power and naval strength. And a lot of this is to do with the. The perception that the naval arms race before the First World War is one of the things that caused the First World War, that this push for battleships, this push for big fleets is one of the drivers that makes the First World War happen. And then the fact that you've had all these battleships and they haven't delivered a result, as far as people see it, there isn't a titanic battle that delivers a result at sea. To win the war makes everyone very, very sort of twitchy about naval power and what it actually means. And everyone's broke and no one wants to spend money on capital ship.

[James Holland]

Except America.

[Al Murray]

Except, Except America. And in America, the main impetus is as long as they can keep the British Navy down, they will themselves sacrifice naval strength if capping the Royal Navy is part of the bargain, which is kind of really interesting way of dealing with a rivalry. So they agree. Britain and the United States in the Washington Treaty of 1922 agree on a total carrier tonnage of 80,000 tons. In addition, any country was allowed, if it wanted to, to build two carriers of no more than 33, 000 tons each. This is so the Americans can convert a couple.

[James Holland]

It's just, it's just amazing that everyone agrees to this, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's, it's fascinating, isn't it?

[James Holland]

And, and it, I mean the Japanese are particularly very, very annoyed about this.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, they're really, they're really annoyed about it because they think, well, we were on the winning side.

[James Holland]

We joined the seeds, the seeds of, of, of ultra nationalism, militaristic ultra nationalism, all come. This is where.

[Al Murray]

Well, and isn't that interesting?

[James Holland]

Versailles and the Washington Treaty.

[Al Murray]

Well, well, but it's interesting, isn't it, because the, the Germans lose the sec. The First World War and the Versailles Treaty is seen as punishment. The Japanese are on the winning side in the First World War and see the treaties that follow as punishment. It, it's, you know. Yeah, you can't. Situations, but they're, they're. So the Americans can build two. They convert two battle cruiser hulls, the Lexington and the Saratoga, into carriers. Carriers. And the Admiralty uses his claws to convert two fast battlecruisers, courageous and glorious, in a similar manner. And they aren't ready until 1928. So there's a gap of 24.

[James Holland]

Big job, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's a big job and there's a gap. There's a gap of 24,000 tons. So HMS Art Royal is laid down in 936 to make up the gap.

[James Holland]

I think it's the second Ark Royal, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

The first Art Roll, I think, is one of the. One of the 17th century Charles II.

[Al Murray]

Yes.

[James Holland]

Ones.

[Al Murray]

Right. Yeah. And then in 1924, the Fleet Air Arm as a part of the RAF is set. Is founded because it's clear that actually the navy needs. The Navy needs its own people. It's a different set of skills, flying off ships and all this sort of thing. That's the first of April again, that. That happens. So April Fool's Day again. But.

[James Holland]

But it's raf, isn't it? So it's RVF working alongside the Navy and, you know, slightly awkward bedfellows, aren't. Aren't they? Yeah, but presumably most of the people in the. In the Fleet Air Arm are people who have been in the rnas.

[Al Murray]

Yes. Yeah.

[James Holland]

So they're more. They're more Navy than rfc.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. But. But you. You know what. What a way to generate a complication. But the elephant in the room is the Air Ministry, who, of course, as we know, are obsessed with bombing. They don't value air parts, air power as part of the Royal Navy's portfolio.

[James Holland]

No. And it's worth saying that this is Boom Trenchard, who's in charge. And Boom Trenchard is absolutely, you know, he's the father of the raf, blah, blah, blah, his first commander in chief. And he is out and out of Bomberman. The bomb will all get through and all the rest of it. You know, he's absolutely, completely in tune.

[Al Murray]

With that concept and not in tune with anyone who isn't interested in that concept. And anyone that he thinks is having.

[James Holland]

A slice of the pie, that's also fair to say.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Anyone who thinks he's having a slice of the cake, he'll. He'll try and stymie them. So. So the. The Air Ministry is always running static on what the Royal Navy thinks it needs in terms of aircraft types and resources and all this sort of thing. So they stagger on adopting new types and among them is the Fairy Swordfish. So this, I think what's really interesting with this is. And obviously it's known as the string bag, and we sang that song beautifully at the start. And I think Jim's your keening tenor at the beginning of the episode I think will stir to many a nautical heart.

[James Holland]

My soft baritone, I think mark more than a keening tenor.

[Al Murray]

And it's called a string bag, not because of its appearance but because it's like a string shopping bag that you could fit everything into. Right. Because, because it's really, you know, we've talked about the Spitfire in terms of it being an open ended airframe and how you could, you know, the Spitfire by the end of the war has double the payload and double the horsepower, basically. The Swordfish is not dissimilar. What they're able to do with this airframe, how they're able to adapt it and it gets up engined a couple years into the war so it's much more powerful and power is really, really important with the, with this aircraft. They fit, they end up fitting anti submarine radar on it and everything. You know, it's an open ended airframe so it works for them. And what we've got to do is not succumb to, to the idea that biplanes in the 1930s are some sort of prehistoric relic. They're just, they're, they're, they're just not, they, they're gonna get superseded but not, but not quite.

[James Holland]

And they're damn good on, they're damn good on aircraft carriers because they don't need much room to take off and land.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. You need, exactly. You need something you can take off and land with a degree of confidence from a moving ship. Ship. Which means you need loads of lift, very low stall speed.

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Al Murray]

Tons of power. And of course with this aircraft, multiple anti submarine payloads and weapons payloads. So torpedoes, dive bombing and lots of low speed loiter range. That's what you really need if you're hunting for something.

[James Holland]

I love that.

[Al Murray]

Right. So the fact that the, the fact that flat out she does 100 knots doesn't matter, you know.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

You need a biplane and there isn't a single engine plane, monoplane aircraft that matches the description of what the, what the Swordfish can do and what it can do is the five things we talked about. The start Reconnaissance of enemy ports. Reconnaissance of the area surrounding a fleet at sea, location of subs. Detection of minefields. Spotting the fall of shot for the navy's guns and the torpedoing that they've, that they've got worked out they know they're going to need. And so the Fleet Air Arm now reverts to naval control. Right. Having had been sort of.

[James Holland]

Yeah, so well. But basically it's like it's doing a lot of the roles that a helicopter could do.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. It's the helicopter before the helicopter, but.

[James Holland]

Before the helicopter's invented.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Holland]

And let's face it, we still have helicopters which don't go as fast as high speed jets.

[Al Murray]

Well. Because it's impossible. Right, and so you accept that it's.

[James Holland]

Well, yeah, but my point is. Point is it's not all about speed and it's about maneuverability. And you know, what you want is a mixture of different aircraft that can do different things. And you're right, you know, you just shouldn't see the Swordfish as something that's antiquated and obsolescent. It's actually exactly fit for what it needs to do.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. It's crap to fly in though, if you're the. Because it's an open cockpit. So it's hard going for the crews. But, but in terms of doctrine and operational, of effect effectiveness, as we'll see, it's, it's, it's as good as anything anyone's got. So in 1937, the Admiralty, thanks to the termination of the First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Ernal Chatfield, his later Admiral of the Fleet, Lord Chatfield.

[James Holland]

Early.

Right, yeah.

[Al Murray]

Well, they regain administrative and operational control of the Fleet Air arm. And in nine, the year before, there's been orders for two more carriers of the illustrious class. Then in 1938, two more. And the 1938, 1939 Navy estimates not hanging around, no provisions made for the construction.

[James Holland]

Do you know what they're doing, Al? They're making, they're making the most of peacetime to do the heavy lifting.

[Al Murray]

Oh, that's an interesting notion. And also not just a white flag appeasement as it seems. This is the high point of appeasement. Right. Yet they're building aircraft carriers like mad.

[James Holland]

And in May they're in the biggest navy you could possibly imagine.

[Al Murray]

No, exactly. In May 1939, this, what's called the In Skip award, the Fleet Air Arm returns directly to the Admiralty. It's back under its control. So it's been coming and then.

[James Holland]

Oh my God.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. 20 squadrons, 232 planes, 191 remaining airframes. Right. Anti submarine expansion begins with the. With Swordfish as the leading edge of what the Fleet Air Arm has for submarine warfare. At the beginning of the war, there are 13 operational squadrons equipped with Swordfish. It is the center of the Fleet Air Arms plan.

[James Holland]

Quite a lot, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

It is actually quite a few, yeah. Exactly. And we're talking about a lot of carriers in terms of carriers. There's six of the six. Six of those ships we were talking about that were being built. Two have been launched. Illustrious on the 5th of April, 39, and 4 formidable on the 17th, while a third victorious launches on the 14th of September. So these things are rolling off.

[James Holland]

I mean, come on.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Serious, isn't it? Yes, exactly.

[James Holland]

So I'm feeling excited about it. I don't know about you.

[Al Murray]

I'm feeling good, good vibes for the Royal Navy and the Fleet Air Arm in particular. So these things are rolling off the production line like. Like hotcakes, aren't they? Jim? What we're gonna do now is we'll take a break and then we'll come back for the origins of Operation Judgment. The Royal Navy Striker Judgment. That's a great operational name. See you in a.

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[Al Murray]

Right. Welcome back to. We have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. And we've stopped talking about the other war now. And we're going to talk about the proper war, Second World War, aren't we, Jim?

[James Holland]

The one that counts.

[Al Murray]

The one that counts. Exactly. And.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And leading up to Toronto. And as we said in the first part, the idea of striking a harbor is very much on the Navy's mind because it's in the traditions of the Royal Navy, isn't it? You know, Nelson strikes the French. French Navy in. In Copenhagen, if it possibly can. Copenhagen, right. And what's really interesting is that actually it's during the Munich crisis that the Mediterranean fleet is weighing its options for actions against the Italians in the Med. And, and in fact, when the, when the Italians go into Abyssinia, there's a lot of chat in the Royal Navy, like, what do we do? What do we do now?

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And Charles Lamb, who famously writes war in a string bag, he says, in his view, that's the moment that the British should have struck and that would have stopped the Second World War in its tracks. So if we'd shown strength against the Italians during the Abyssinian crisis, there would be no. There would have been no Second World War because the dictators would have thought again. Which is an interesting perspective to trip. Trip over while looking at Taranto.

[James Holland]

Well, I suspect it would have made the Italians think again.

[Al Murray]

Well, exactly, but, but, you know, if.

[James Holland]

I think he's got a point about that.

[Al Murray]

Well, yeah, but if.

[James Holland]

Then you'd have no North African war.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, but if the whole thing's a house of cards and Hitler's relying on people not taking action, then he might, he might have thought again and thought, oh, actually, the, The British. The British are more.

[James Holland]

That's a thought, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Cool. That's a discussion point, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

It certainly is. I'll find the. I'll find the right bit.

[James Holland]

Just thinking. I'm thinking of. Okay, so, so we should do a. We should do a panel next year. We have ways fest called how to have Prevented the Second World War.

[Al Murray]

Yes. How do us. How does one avoid the Second World War? Yeah, and he, he, he says, you know, that we should have struck the Italian fleet in Toronto and that would have been the end of that and we'd have stopped that war and we'd have stopped the whole thing in its tracks.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you. Then you can go back a little bit further than that as well.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah.

[James Holland]

Well, let's save that for next. Let's. Let's save that for next year.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So it's Admiral Studley Pound who asks for planning on this. And under Pound in the mad is Glorious. HMS Glorious, which has a squadron of Nimrod and osprey fighters and three squadrons of 12 Swordfish TSR aircraft. Right. And her captain is Captain Arthur Lumley. Sir George Lister, cvo, Royal Navy. He's training these squadrons to a high pitch of efficiency, as they say. Lots of practice. And he's a gunnery expert, actually, but he's an air pioneer in the. In the Royal Navy, and he sees what the Fleet Air Arm offers the Navy, you know, in terms of how it can improve its gunner.

[James Holland]

But I suppose, you know, this is an exciting time, isn't it? If you're, if you're a kind of frosting young kind of naval sort with an aviation bent, then you're going to be excited about this. You're going to think, God, think about the possibilities of all this. We've got this aircraft, this can do this, this, this and this. Yeah, just think what we could do if we could, if we got that in this position. And, yeah, I mean, you can see how you'd feel excited about that.

[Al Murray]

So, anyway, during Munich Pound remembers that in 1935, in the Abyssinian Crisis, there's been an airplane put together to attack the fleet in Taranto. Lister finds a copy in his ship's secret files and taking commander glorious no pound demands, he updates it. Now, of course, come November 1940, it's going to be a different, different situation, but it's in pound enlisted minds before the war, and it's part of what the Fleet Air Arm is thinking about doing. It's. It's blue sky thinking, you know, literally. Interestingly, at this time, one of the skeptics about air power in the Royal Navy is abc. He's not sold on it, but he comes to change his mind. So let's fast forward to the end.

[James Holland]

With bells on, let's face it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, I mean, exactly, let's. Well, yeah, Although there are questions about what more could have been done at Toronto, it's quite interesting. So, on the 8th of July 1940, let's go forward to after the strategic earthquake, Operation Catapult. The Royal Navy has to deal with.

[James Holland]

The French because it's worth just reminding us, reminding everyone that Italy has entered the war on the 10th of June.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Mussolini announcing the declaration from the balcony of the Palazzo Venezia in the center of Rome. And everything's changed, everything's.

[Al Murray]

Everything's changed the situation.

[James Holland]

Bastard.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. Situation. The Mediterranean is now quite different because. Because rather than two navies against one, it's one navy against one and one over which there is a question mark about which way it'll jump. Right, so you get Mayel Kabir on the. On the 3rd of July, Admiral Somerville crying into his cornflakes.

[James Holland]

They had a choice. They had a choice.

But there's one don't see any other Frenchman having a problem with surrendering.

You.

[Al Murray]

Know, just a question of who to. Exactly.

[James Holland]

Quite. Having to surrender to the Germans. Just saying it.

[Al Murray]

Oh dear. But there is one more big ship to deal with and laid up in Dakar is the rich. Yeah.

[James Holland]

Is the Richelieu, the mighty Richelieu battleship.

[Al Murray]

This is a proper battleship and this is a battleship.

[James Holland]

And we know exactly what it looks like and what it is. It's a battleship.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Yes, exactly.

[James Holland]

Not a heavy cruiser, it's not a pocket battleship. It's a battleship. Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And this is the real deal. A crew of 1569 Matlow, I suppose eight 15 inch guns, nine 6 inch guns, 40 anti aircraft guns of varying caliber, four seaplanes. She can steam at 32 knots. At 15 knots she has a range by something.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

At 15 notches, a range of nine and a half thousand kilometers. So she's lots to worry about. And she's built in fact in response to the Italian Littorio class battleship, which is a. Which is one of the ships that. That will feature in the Toronto raid.

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Al Murray]

So she's brand new. She sails From Brest on 18 June 1940 as the Germans attack Brest and she's sent, ordered to go to Dakar and Senegal. She's got French gold reserves on board. So get the gold out of. Get the gold out of France and by the time she gets to Dakar.

[James Holland]

France is quick, we can surrender to the Nazis. But we're not surrendering our gold, we're giving them the gold.

[Al Murray]

And obviously by the time she gets there, the French have. The French have surrendered. Right. Or quit the war, signed an armistice, let's call it what it was. And Captain Marzin, his orders are to stay under French control, scuttle her or head to the us. So he has a sort of moment of indecision, sails for Casablanca, then turns around and goes back to Dakar and arrives on the 4th of, on the 4th of July. So the day after Mayor Zel Kabir, he's gone to Dakar. So the Royal Navy puts together a task force, task force Y, Force Y to strike the Ricia. And that is centered around Hermes, one of the aircraft carriers under Captain RJF Onslow, who's temporarily a vice admiral for this operation. Heavy cruisers Dorsetshire and Australia. And they do the same thing. They issue an ultimatum on the 7th, like Somerville at Mers el Kebia. The French say no. Yep. And Onslow knows that Richelieu is well protected with anti torpedo nets etc and the plan is to knock her out. He wants to knock her out without killing too many French sailors. And there's going to be this.

[James Holland]

A few's okay, but not too many.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. There's go and, and eventually there's this thing, Operation Menace that. It's a great big debacle. Anyway. They send in a fast motorboat attack. These boats zip in and the charges don't detonate. So it's time for the Fleet Air Arm to step up. Six torpedo armed swordfish from 814 Naval Air Service squadron from Hermes attack at dawn on the 8th of July 1940. And it's a narrow passage through the nets and the merchant vessels. And so a slow aircraft that you can control is ideal for striking this kind of target. If you, if you're going too quickly you'll never, you'll never get a bead on the thing. Right. And they strike Richter at 4:15 hours in the morning because she's getting ready to sail. Because, because they've realized the threat. The French one torpedo strikes her aft on the starboard.

[James Holland]

But also. Can I just point something out?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You try hitting something at this going at 90 miles an hour.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. It's really difficult.

[James Holland]

That's pretty fast enough.

[Al Murray]

It's plenty fast enough. Yeah.

[James Holland]

And this, I would say something going at 50 miles an hour is quite hard here.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. At this.

[James Holland]

I.

[Al Murray]

Well, yeah, I mean, you know, if anyone's ever been clay pigeon shooting, tracking a clay and, and offsetting your aim so that you, you strike the clay in the right place, that's really difficult. I don't know how fast a clay pigeon's going, but it's not, it's not doing, it's not going the lick of.

[James Holland]

A sword fish very fast.

[Al Murray]

No. And the ratio is struck on the starboard side on the aft and there's a hole that's 9.3 by 8.5 meters between the propeller shafts. A shock disables the ship's systems. Two of her fire control directors are knocked off their tracks. Starboard propeller shafts are bent and hitting.

[James Holland]

Propeller shafts and rudders is quite a useful technique to stop a really screws things, a very mighty warship from going anywhere.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. And she's flooded. Damage control teams pump out the fuel of the bunk from out of the bunkers to counteract the loss of buoyancy aft. And the ships towed into report port for repairs. So attacking ships in harbour with Swordfish works. Absolute proof of concept. And the other thing to bear in mind is that this is thrown together very quickly. They aren't they aren't standing up for this long term in the way that when, when Operation Judgment comes around, they're preparing for it. And we won't bother with the rest of Operation Menace and the Battle of Dakar that follows in September because it's too depressing.

[James Holland]

No, no. If you want to know about that, just read Sword of Honor trilogy by, by Evelyn War, and I'll tell you all you need to know.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. You know, how do you like your ups? If you. I mean, it's like fantastic balls up.

[James Holland]

You know, the names have changed, Richie hook, you know, etc. But, but yeah, we all know it's real.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Holland]

And also the most important thing is I think it's much easier to. It's. It's much more digestible in fiction form because, you know, it's only a novel when you know it's for real. It's more upsetting.

I would say that. Not a fair point.

[Al Murray]

Absolutely, absolutely right. Absolutely right. But the crucial lesson they learn is that the torpedoes are too fast. Right?

The torpedoes run at 40 knots and are better off running more steady at 27 knots.

[James Holland]

Isn't that interesting?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, well, because a ship at anchor, after all, can't evade a torpedo. Right? So you don't.

[James Holland]

But what about one at sea?

[Al Murray]

Well, one, let's see, it can. So you need the 40 knot torpedo for out at sea to reduce.

[James Holland]

Oh, okay.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Which you don't need a fast torpedo if the things at Anchorage. Right. No, I mean, of course, of course.

[James Holland]

You don't go nowhere.

[Al Murray]

It's going nowhere. Right. And they also realize.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Al Murray]

That they're.

[James Holland]

And then the point of that is it just gives you more chance to, to aim up. And I mean, what's the advantage of it being slower?

[Al Murray]

The advantage of it running slower is that, is that it runs more steady.

[James Holland]

Got it, got it, got it, got it, got it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. They realized that they're running too deep and so they're going into the mud. And that one of the problems with attacking a harbor is that, is that it's really quite shallow.

[James Holland]

Right, Quite shallow.

[Al Murray]

So you've got to, you've got to split the difference between the torpedo nets. So you've got to get under the torpedo, but not so low that you, you go into the bottom. Right. Torpedoes are set to be run at 27 knots at a depth of 33ft and they're to be fitted with the duplex pistol firing mechanism. So the duplex pistol detonates the torpedo magnetically and. Or on contact with striking the ship. And when it comes to it at Toronto, the Italian.

[James Holland]

Does it have a little trick? Does it have a trigger that you set? Do you use either or.

[Al Murray]

No, no, it'll do both. It'll do both. So if it sails up.

[James Holland]

Oh, that's why it's duplex, because it's done.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Because it. Yeah. So if it goes under the ship, it detonates.

But if it strikes it, it detonates too. And so.

[James Holland]

Got it, got it, got it, got it.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. And the Italians don't know about this. Right. When it. When it comes to it. And what's interesting is, as they start thinking about striking the Italian fleet in Taranto, the local RAF boss, Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Longmore, he's commander the RAF in the Mediterranean. He's mad for the idea because as a Squadron Commander in the Royal Navy Air Service, he dropped the first ever aerial torpedo from a British aircraft in July 1901.

[James Holland]

I love that. I love that. So he's gone over to the dark side and gone to the raf, but actually, his heart still, he's like a. He's like the mole inside the raf. He's still gunning for the. For the Fleet Air Arm.

[Al Murray]

Exactly, exactly. So as we build towards Toronto, HMS Illustrious under Captain Boyd, DSE Ronnie joins.

[James Holland]

The Med, which of course was launched in April 1939.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. So she's brand new, so she's been working up in Bermuda, they've been over in the Caribbean, getting there, getting their act together. And he. Boyd is a torpedo specialist and he's learned to fly privately. So he gets it. He's absolutely the right guy to have in charge. And what's interesting about Illustrious is this is an armored flight deck, which is the big innovation that the British bring to aircraft carrier design in the Second World War. It's basically a steel box. So you have the. You have the flight deck. That's an armored flight deck. It's a box that the lift that goes. That the lift goes down to, that contains the hangar and the entire thing is armored. You know, the Americans are flying with a. With wooden flight decks when they first entered the war, that there's this proper serious innovation in the design of the aircraft carrier, an Illustrious.

[James Holland]

So are you saying that the Royal Navy is once again ahead of the game of everybody else?

[Al Murray]

I'm just putting it out there for people to chew on. Right. And so she.

[James Holland]

How low we've fallen. You know, it's just.

[Al Murray]

So she sails.

[James Holland]

Holy moly.

[Al Murray]

She. She rendezvous with ABC south of Malta on the 30th of August.

[James Holland]

There was a time when being in the Royal Navy meant something.

[Al Murray]

We're trying to make it mean something again with this podcast, Jim. And now.

[James Holland]

Yeah, okay.

[Al Murray]

She's flying the flag of real Admiral Lumley Lister, who we met before the war, who's the former captain of HMS Glorious.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Who's been appointed rear admiral aircraft carriers Mediterranean. Right. So on flying his flag, he gets his staff to dust off the Taranto attack plans from before the war. Right. Which means when he gets Alex, he's ready to lobby ABC for this Taranto action. Right?

[James Holland]

Yes. And by this time, ABC doesn't need much lobbying, does he? Because he's, he's had his vault fast. He's, he's, he's a convert.

[Al Murray]

He's completely a convert. And also, he's looking for ways, you know, he's, he wants to bring the Italian Navy to battle the Regia Marina to battle somehow, or have his Nelsonian Titanic moment. And interestingly, Charles Lamb says what he's going to have to do. A Nelson isn't he? Is what they're saying in the wardrobe on Illustrious. He's going to have to do. He's going to have to do a Copenhagen one way or another.

[James Holland]

Isn't it amazing? Isn't it amazing how often Nelson's name gets brought up in. I mean, he is absolutely there, isn't he? Kind of on, on all of their shoulders, all these admirals all the time, whether they're in the Mediterranean or the Atlantic or the Home Fleet, everyone sort of thinks, what would Nelson do? It's really interesting.

[Al Murray]

No, it's, it's on everyone's minds, but they're running ops. They're not. They're not just hanging around waiting for Taranto. Right. And they've got, and they've got some fighters as well, four of which are Fulmars. And, and they actually. The Fulmars, in the end, although they are obsolete in sort of Battle of Britain fighter plane terms, they are, they are really, really. They end up doing an amazing job. So on the 4th of September, every available swordfish from Eagle and Illustrious mount an attack on Italian airfields on roads aimed at those at Calato and Scarpanto.

[James Holland]

Ireland, in the eastern, Eastern Mediterranean, Eastern Aegean.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And they've been. The Italians have been Turkish coast bombing Alex from there. So they destroy hangars and barracks. Aircraft on the ground are on fire. This is for the loss of four of Eagle's swordfish. And what's interesting, she was a quarter of an hour late getting her Strike away because she has to maneuver into the wind to get enough wind going over the flight deck for aircraft to take off. And they Turn up quick 15 minutes late and they're shot down by Italian fighters because they've been alerted by the first strike. So there are these margins of error that, that are on offer when you're flying off ships. And before the carrier is then put into Alex, all of the aircraft come off and they go to HMS Grebe, which is the Royal Navy air station at Dakila, eight miles away. And they, they then fly ops on from a land base while the, while the carriers are sorting themselves out. So the Fleet Air Arm flies tac air in the desert in Egypt against the Italians. From the 13th of September they attacked to brook Benghazi. The dropping mines, torpedoes, they're sinking ships.

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Al Murray]

Right. So. So these crews are all really, really busy and they're honing their skills. They're getting good at it. On arrival in Alex Cunningham calls all his, all his conning officers together and says we want a program of operations against Italian bases and shipping. And he opens with the words, gentlemen, I have called you together for. I want your advice on how best we can best annoy the enemy. And this is when I mean, you know, Stoic Club.

[James Holland]

And Lisa says, well sir, there is some, one little, one little operation that springs to mind.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. And abc, what's interesting is, is that the Italians have, the Italians by this point have shut the British out of their ciphers completely and we don't, we don't know what, what they're doing. Yeah, they've won that, that round of the intelligence war at this point. And sigint's gone completely dark. So ABC says I want more recce aircraft. Right. Because I need to see what the Reggie Marina are up to. And although the Italians, the Italians are behind on radar tech, they're ahead on SIGINT and they're winning. And this is. Then this lack of recce material is remedied by the arrival of 431flight the Marylands.

And of course Adrian Warburton, who we talked about in the multi series, who's a central character in your, in your Malta book. He. And it's Warby who flies to Taranto to get a proper look at the Italian fleet in harbor. Right. So yes, these, all these things connecting in the Mediterranean because that's the thing about the Med is everything connects. Right. So the men in charge of planning Operation Judgment are Captain Boyd from Illustrious, who we met earlier. Commander. Yes, Commander J Robertson, rn. And he's known as Streamline Robertson in the Fleet Air Arm because of his remarkable.

[James Holland]

And he's a. He's a. He's a. He's a total lad, isn't he? Yeah, he's a great. He's a tremendous fellow.

[Al Murray]

Tremendous fellow. And he's known for his ability to speed up any operation connected with the handling of aircraft. That's why it's called Streamline Johnson. And then.

[James Holland]

Man after my own heart. Come on, get on with it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Holland]

No faffing about.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. And this is. This is, you know, the deep. The deep. The deep pockets of experience in the Royal Navy, you know, in a way that the army is sort of having to flush out at this point, figure out who's good. The Royal Navy. Royal Navy, you know, it's full.

[James Holland]

They're already there. They're already there. They've already got. They've already got the A list.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's literally full steam ahead. Now, the assistant Operations Officer is someone called Lieutenant D Pollock, who's a Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Officer. He's a solicitor and he's specialized in photographic interpretation. On joining the R&B PR, and he makes a casual study of Warburton's images and he sees lines of white blobs annotated on the photographs by the RAF as blemishes. But he thinks they're barrage balloons. So he goes to Alex to have another look at these PR pictures and he's not allowed to copy them or take them because they're top secret. So what he does is he steals them.

[James Holland]

He half inches them.

[Al Murray]

Yep. Takes them back to Illustrious, copies them and returns them and no one notices.

[James Holland]

I mean, that's amazing, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

That fantastic. You know, and he's a lieutenant, that Trump.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

But he's also rnvr, so it doesn't matter, you know, he's not got a career to worry about. And they. And at the same time, he's going.

[James Holland]

To go back to the law in Melton Mowbray when he comes back.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Exactly right.

[James Holland]

Come 1945, he'll be back at his pinstripe and bowler and.

[Al Murray]

Exactly right. Oh, I stole color of society.

[James Holland]

They wore thievery.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Who did what? They're then working on night flying. They're working on how do you drop torpedoes at night, effectively, how do you solve them, solve these problems. So that's what the training is. And of course, the prize you really.

[James Holland]

Need is a bit of moonlight, don't you?

[Al Murray]

Well, you need some moonlight or. Or as we'll see. You need some light that you're going to generate yourselves.

Which is a core part of it. So Jim, take us through the prize. The Italian fleet at anchor. What are we looking at here?

[James Holland]

Well, the prize, yes, the Italian fleet anchor. What it's, it's big. You know, the Italian navy is, is one of the largest in the world. Yeah. And the shape of the art is. It's like an, it's like the figure of an 8 sat on its side. So it is. The lower portion is larger than the upper. So you've got the Mar Grande which is, is the outer bit. So this is a bit that faces here. And I've been to Ranto and it's an amazing place. The central part of the town is absolutely lovely as well.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

And there you've got two 15 inch gun battleship battleship, the Vittorio Veneto and the Littorio after the Littorio class battleships. And Then you've got four 12.6 inch or 320 millimeter gun battleships which is the Cavour, the Giulio Cesare, the Cayo Diio and the Andrea Doria. So you've got six battleships.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And also present are the 8 inch 240 mm gun cruisers, the Xara, Fiume and Gorizia and the destroyers Folgare, Bellino, Fulmine, Lampo, Alfieri, Gioberti, Carducci and Oriani. And in the Mar Piccolo, which is this little kind of lagoon, so there's this tiny little narrow canal which separates the city and you go into this sort of this weird lagoon and on the far side it's sort of marshland and it's sort of, you know, a haven of, of seabird and, and, and foul and all the rest of it. So it's this, it's kind of weird little inlet, like it's more like a lake than the sea, but it is connected to the sea. You've got the, the Mar Piccolo and that's where you have your, your 8 inch gun cruisers. So that's 204 millimeters. So that's a Trieste and the Bolzano and the destroyers Granatieri, Alpine, Bersiglieri and Fuchilieri. While moored stern to the jetty are the 8 inch 204 millimeter gun cruisers, the Polar and the Trento. And you can tell, can't you, that I've been doing Duolingo Italian.

[Al Murray]

But this is why I, this is why I threw, you know, once.

[James Holland]

But that's not all, that's not all.

[Al Murray]

Al, it's incredible, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Because you've also got the 6 inch gun cruisers which are 154 millimeter. You've got the Garibaldi and the Abruzzi and the destroyers, Freccia, Strale, Dardo, Saetta, Mestrale, Libeccio, Grecali, Sirocco, Comicianera, Geniere, Lancere, Carabiniere, Carazieri, Ascari, d', Areco, Uzodimari and the Pisano. Wow. I mean that's a good number, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

It's extraordinary.

[James Holland]

And there's more, there's more, there's more because there's also in the Mar. Piccolo, you've got five torpedo boats, 16 submarines, four minesweepers, one mine layer, nine tankers, supply chips, hospital ships, as well as some tugs and MVS merchant vessels. That is a rich bounty if ever there was one.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. I mean it's, it's quite something, isn't it? And so how do you strike?

[James Holland]

This really is.

[Al Murray]

It really is something. So. And obviously the issue is you want them to stay there if you're going to strike them, you want as many of these ships to stick around. So Cunningham has to come up with his absolutely extraordinary, complex. It's a cover story, basically, complex series of operations to keep the Italians guessing and to. And to make sure that they, they don't sail in enough force to diminish the possibilities for judgment and judgment. Judgment, you know, is the Tarantula operation itself, but it's a sub operation of Operation MB8. Right. And this is a vast Mediterranean operation. Six forces all steaming in different directions with different tasks to bamboozle the Regia Marina. It's a huge effort from ships, ships from Gibraltar as well as Alex. There's two carriers, Illustrious and Eagle, five battleships, 10 cruisers, 30 destroyers covering the movements of four convoys. And you've got the sub operations. I know sub operations coat. Crack Convoy MW3 Convoy ME3 Convoy AN6 and judgment itself at the end. So Coat is, as my father would say.

[James Holland]

Gosh.

My father's great. He's a great one. Everything slightly surprises him these days. They spend his whole time going, gosh, crikey, golly.

[Al Murray]

Well this is really funny. I mean Coat. Coat is a, like a reinforcement convoy from Britain to Malta. Troops and anti aircraft guns. Yeah. A bar and barrack and Glasgow and three escorting destroyers and Royal and Art Royal as well. So we. Yes, and the light cruiser HMS Sheffield and three more destroyers.

[James Holland]

Remember HMS Sheffield, people?

[Al Murray]

Exactly.

[James Holland]

And then Sheffield will be returning, Sheffield.

[Al Murray]

Will be returning Then Art Royal then attacks Cagliari with itself and the old.

[James Holland]

Royal, for that matter.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Art Royal then attacks Cagliari with its swordfish as Operation Crack. So there's another airstrike going on as well.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Convoy MW three empty merchant going from Malta back to Alex. Three empty merchant from Malta with an escort sailing from Alex to Malta. Then me three is the. The return journey with HMS Ramillies, Coventry, two destroyers. And then the convoy N6 is another thing with people going in all sorts of different directions to Crete, cruisers involved, HMS Orion going, taking RAF supplies to Greece and Suda Bay and all this sort of stuff. And then at the end of it is Operation Judgment. And the idea is, like I say, to confuse the Italians. And there's an Italian officer after the war who says, of Operation MB8, he says, if the British had not explained after the war what had gone on in those days, the Italians would not have known what these movements had been. So it works.

[James Holland]

Crikey.

[Al Murray]

Now, Judgment is planned for Trafalgar Day, 21 October, when the moonlight's right.

[James Holland]

Another nod to Nelson, of course.

[Al Murray]

And another nod to Nelson. I mean, you know, Is Nelson in the room with you now? It's, it's. It's quite extraordinary, isn't it?

[James Holland]

I'm feeling it. But I've got a portrait of Nelson just here in my.

[Al Murray]

So he is in the room with you now. So one of the things they've got to do for the. To strike Taranto is they've got to. They take. They've got. They take out the telegraphist gunner and they put. They. In the observer's seat and they move the observer. They put a fuel tank in the. In the third seat in the Swordfish. And it's a. It's a. You know, it's a temporary measure. And while they're fitting one on Illustrious, a mechanic slips and falls in his screwdriver, draws a spark from open electrical contacts on the plane, which is a thing in the. In the. In the. And it causes a fire. There's. There's one version of events that they use. Someone was using a metal hammer and it's a spot for metal hammer. From then on, we used rope, rubber hammers. But then. So there's some disagreement about what caused it, but it's probably the screwdriver. Two planes are destroyed in the fire.

[James Holland]

But be that as it may, there's a fire.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, Two planes are destroyed. Five others are soaked in salt water from the fire suppression systems. So you've got this sudden Reduction in the strike force, then that's no good. Yeah. Eagle develops a bug. She's got a defect in her petrol supply system due to battle damage earlier in the year, so she has to sit it out. So five of her Swordfish and eight crew are sent over to Illustrious to create a striking force of 24 planes. They then have further accidents running right up to the last minute with three other Swordfish having to deal.

[James Holland]

It tempts you to think there's. So, you know there's something wrong with his operation, wouldn't he?

[Al Murray]

Well, yeah, that it's jinxed somehow, that there's. They discover a contamination in a fungus in the fuel system and they have to flush all the fuel systems out. Illustrious. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of these plane. Among these planes that's ditched, there's a. They're crewed by Sub Lieutenant Alistair Keith and his observer, Lieutenant George Going. And they get rescued by Gloucester, by HMS Gloucester. Going, then goes to the captain and pleads with him, please, I need to go back to Illustrious, I want to fly the raid. So the captain sticks him in his Walrus seaplane, sends him on his way and Going's described as one of the bravest men I have ever met and we will encounter Going later on. So it's Postponed to the. 11th November, which is the next night with the right amount of moon.

[James Holland]

Hang on a minute, Al. So there's. There's. So there's an incredibly courageous pilot. He's absolutely desperate to take part in the mission. I wonder how it's all going to pan out.

Well.

[Al Murray]

Well, we're going to run into him again, actually.

[James Holland]

One of the bravest men I ever knew.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. So he's post. It's postponed to the 11th of November because there's the right amount of moon. But MB8's moving parts dazzle the Italians. And an important part of this is the full Mars on Illustrious. Basically create local air superiority. And this is what this all in the end, this is the thing that's changing that the control of the air as, as we know from the history of the Second World War, who controls the skies, controls everything. And at this point the fleet air arm control the skies where that wherever they are and they're chasing away spotter planes all the time and they're running combat air patrols in the full man, the full Mars, a twin seater, you know, looks a bit clunky, but it's doing a really good job. And. And it's the. So while the Swordfish obviously get the Glamour of the strike, it's the Fulmars running combat air patrols and creating local air superiority. And they prove the point that you need that and they dominate the Regia Aeronautica completely and give them no chance. So the Fulmar is also not obsolete until it comes up against sharper opposition. And 806 Naval Air Squadron destroy or damage over 40 enemy aircraft during this period.

[James Holland]

That's no small number. That's shades of Muncheberg over Malta, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. They're really laying.

[James Holland]

They're really laying one staple of JG's 27.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. So amazing. Illustrious is steaming her way to within range of Point X, which is the launch point for the strike, of course. Yes. The Italians are befuddled by MB8. The crews on Illustrious. Yep, Crew. The crews also from, from, from both aircraft carriers, from the Eagle as well. They're ready to go. They've got their orders, but they're initially they're being. Their orders are to use their initiative and strike at what they can. They know the risks. At the briefing, one of the observers, Blood Scarlet as he's known when the officer briefing him says, well, let's talk about the return journey. He pipes up saying, don't let's waste valuable time talking about that stoic society.

[James Holland]

Straight in.

[Al Murray]

Exactly, exactly. So it's the evening of 11th November. Illustrious has sailed to her mark. She's turning into the wind. The Italians have no idea what is about to hit them.

[James Holland]

And if that's not a cliffhanger, I don't know what is.

[Al Murray]

There we go. So join us in our next episode for the Strike at Taranto. We hope you enjoyed our potted history of the Fleet Air Arm. We'll have had to leave some bits out, obviously, but I think we've, we've set the that. This is the pinnacle of Royal Navy ambition, warfare.

[James Holland]

It's absolutely fantastic.

[Al Murray]

And here we go. Yeah, start your engines. Join us for the second part of Strike on Taranto. We'll see you soon. Cheerio.

[James Holland]

Cheerio.

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