Podcast Summary: WW2 Pod – We Have Ways of Making You Talk

Episode: How To Remember The Holocaust

Date: January 16, 2026
Host: Goalhanger (with appearances by Al Murray and guest historians)
Main Speakers: Unnamed Holocaust memory expert ("B") and Alex Moore

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the complex subject of Holocaust memory and remembrance. The discussion explores how the Holocaust is remembered, forgotten, and presented in various national, institutional, and personal contexts. Drawing from European case studies (especially Germany, the Soviet Union, and Poland), and touching on the UK and the US, the speakers analyze the factors shaping collective memory—from museums, laws, and trials to culture, education, and family stories. The conversation is both deeply informative and candid about the challenges of remembrance.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Memory and Why Does it Matter?

• Memory as Meaning-Making:
  • "What is memory? Right? You're doing it right now...memory is, it's an academic word...but really it's how do we make meaning of our past in our current time?" (02:00)
  • Memory isn't just sterile recollection; it's about understanding ourselves in the present.
• Memory vs. Remembrance:
  • The distinction is debated—remembrance can be an active process, while memory may exist passively or be selectively forgotten.

2. Institutions and Official Memory

• Museums as 'Memory with a Thesis':
  • "Museums have a thesis. They're making an argument to you...they have a point they're trying to tell you, and that's a way of shaping memory." (04:00)
  • Institutions (museums, tribunals, government ceremonies) frame particular narratives about the Holocaust.
• Legal Trials:
  • Nuremberg defined SS as a criminal organization, but not the Wehrmacht (making forgetting and selective memory easier for some Germans).
  • "Trials are a huge part of our cultural meaning making...because in some way, it's not only the perpetrator that's on trial, but what we think about the event..." (05:00)

3. Holocaust Memory Timeline & Milestones

• Early Survivor Interviews:
  • David Boder interviewed Holocaust survivors in 1946—earlier than many assume.
• Eichmann Trial (1961):
  • Served to put "the Holocaust on trial" in a mass-media sense, with survivors’ testimonies.
• Neo-Nazi March in Skokie, IL (1977):
  • Sparked the foundation for Holocaust education programs in the US.
• Popular Culture:
  • The 'Holocaust' miniseries and 'Schindler's List' dramatically raised public awareness, especially in Germany via mass media consumption.

4. National Case Studies

a) Germany

• Vergangenheitsbewältigung – Coming to Terms with the Past:
  • "There’s no great American or English definition for it. It means coming to terms with the past. And I think that’s a fantastic summation of what memory work really is." (11:27)
• Willy Brandt’s Kneeling in Warsaw (1970):
  • A turning point for German official acknowledgment of guilt; spontaneous, deeply symbolic, and memorialized in both Germany and Poland.
• Family Memory vs. National Memory:
  • Sociological studies show generational storytelling changes—grandchildren rewriting or sanitizing family narratives.
• Wehrmacht Exhibition (1995):
  • Forced public confrontation with Wehrmacht complicity. Provoked strong reactions—including attacks by right-wing extremists.

b) Soviet Union

• Initial Investigations:
  • Soviets began documenting and interviewing survivors during the war.
• Official Narrative:
  • "We don't divide the dead." Jews were buried under the broader category of "Soviet civilians"—erasing (or suppressing) specifically Jewish suffering.
• Memorials:
  • Plaques in Belarus initially omitted any mention of Jews; later (in 2014), new markers and menorahs recognized Jewish victims explicitly.

c) Poland

• Complex Victim-Perpetrator Memory:
  • Poland celebrates its victimhood by the Nazis, but many want to ignore uncomfortable truths about Polish collaboration.
• Plaszow Camp and Local Memory:
  • Ancient camp sites now serve as parks; monuments to Polish police (including collaborators) receive more attention than Jewish victim memorials.
• Historical Censorship:
  • Laws threatened prosecution of historians exposing Polish complicity.
  • "A famous Polish Holocaust scholar named Jan Grabowski...has actually been brought to trial on these charges." (18:05)
• Grassroots Education:
  • Local Jewish museums and educators work hard to inform mostly non-Jewish communities about Jewish history and the Holocaust.

d) United States

• Chronology of Museums:
  • The Holocaust Museum founded 40 years post-Holocaust; African American history institution took nearly 300 years.
  • Reflects America’s readiness to embrace narratives as liberators (of Jews during WWII) versus those of oppression (slavery, racism).
• Selective Memory:
  • "In the American narrative of the Holocaust, we're the heroes, right? ... In the story of the United States and African American history, white Americans are not so much." (20:00)

5. Forgetting as Part of Memory

• Suppression, denial, and selective memory are not passive but active parts of how societies process the past.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Museums as Argument:
  "Museums have a thesis. They're making an argument to you..." – Speaker B (04:00)
• On National vs. Family Memory (Germany):
  "Even within families, people begin to sort of edit what the memory looks like." – Speaker B (12:50)
• On Soviet Memorials:
  "Buried here are 1,975 Soviet civilians brutally murdered by the German fascist occupiers. No mention of the fact that they're Jewish." – Speaker B (15:55)
• On Polish Memory Laws:
  "There was a law that was passed that threatened prosecution for historians who really brought up the fact that there were Poles that individually might have collaborated or individually chose to victimize Jews." – Speaker B (17:55)
• On American Narrative:
  "In the American narrative of the Holocaust, we’re the heroes... But of course, in the story of the United States and African American history, white Americans are not so much. This is not a comfortable topic for us." – Speaker B (20:00)

Key Timestamps

• [01:24] – Introduction to memory and its meanings
• [04:00] – How museums, law, and commemoration shape collective memory
• [09:30] – Major milestones in Holocaust memory, educational movements
• [11:27] – Discussion of German “Vergangenheitsbewältigung”
• [12:50] – Generational shifts in family Holocaust memory in Germany
• [13:50] – The Wehrmacht exhibition and societal backlash
• [15:55] – Soviet-era memorials and suppression of Jewish identity
• [17:55] – Controversies in Poland over memory and history laws
• [19:30] – Grassroots Holocaust education in modern Poland
• [20:00] – US memory; comparison between Holocaust and African American museums

Summary & Flow

The episode provides a thorough, layered view of Holocaust memory across countries and social strata. It candidly examines not only official narratives but also grassroots efforts, generational tensions, and the challenges of public education. By sharing specific examples, controversial laws, and evolving memorials, the speakers illustrate how remembrance is always a process—never static and never free from political and emotional struggle.
The tone combines scholarly insight with plain, sometimes stark language—reflecting the seriousness and complexity of the subject, but without losing sight of the real, living implications for societies today.

For the full, unabridged discussion and audience Q&A, subscribe to the We Have Ways Patreon.