← WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
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- [00:02]
Al Murray
Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com wehaveways.
- [00:24]
Christian McCaffrey
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- [00:55]
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- [01:22]
Christian McCaffrey
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- [02:00]
Al Murray
Danger old boy. Danger old boy. Welcome to we have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. Best in The West Episode 2 and as you all know by now, well, if you've listened to the first one of these, what we're doing is we're teeing up a fantastic final head to head battle between the best generals in the West. For we have Ways Fest Funf Putting the fun into fun Next month in September, September 12th, the 14th, where we will be finally wrestling this to the ground. Who are the greatest generals of the second World War? Were.
- [02:29]
James Holland
But voting's already open, isn't it?
- [02:31]
Al Murray
Yeah. If you so if you go to the Patreon, if you go to our Patreon, we have ways to make you talk. Patreon. You will see right now Ronald Adam is on 1% Harold Alexander's on 24%, the ORC 1%, Alan Brook 7. Miles Dempsey, 1%, Miles Dempsey.
- [02:46]
James Holland
Only 1%, I think, is a surprise.
- [02:47]
Al Murray
Yeah, it is, yeah. Yeah. Richard gale windy on 5%, Percy Hobart, 5%, Brian Horrocks on 4%, which is interesting because he's sort of famous, Horrocks, isn't he? Thanks to Edward fox, largely. Richard McCreary. Nothing.
- [02:59]
James Holland
Well, this is why we need to spend a bit of time with him.
- [03:01]
Al Murray
Exactly. Manny on 27%, Leslie Moore's head on one, Richard O' Connor on six, Guy Simmons on 2% and Tuka on 15%, which I think has got a lot to do with your.
- [03:11]
James Holland
It's getting in, it's getting through, it's getting.
- [03:13]
Al Murray
It's your advocacy from previous years, Jim. I think that's done that for France, Tuka. But basically what we're doing, we're trying to canter through brief biographies on what we think of these people and then leave it to you to vote. And then, as I said, come to. We have ways fest and watch this finally be put to bed once and for all. So no one need argue about who the best generals are ever again. That's the idea, isn't it, Jim? Well or no, clear, everyone will know. Close that particular book, move on to something else.
- [03:35]
James Holland
Clarity of thought is absolutely essential.
- [03:37]
Al Murray
Absolutely. In the last episode, we looked at Ronald Allen, Alexander Auchinleck, Brooke, Dempsey Gale and Hobart. Percy Hobart. But now we start with another H. Lt. Gen. Sir Brian Horrocks. Horrocks is. I think he's another one of these imperial types, isn't he? He's born in India, he's an army kid, his dad's a gunner. He goes to Uppingham and then he goes to Sandhurst and bang on time. He's born in 1895, bang on time for the First World War in the Middlesex Regiment.
- [04:09]
James Holland
Machine Gun Corps.
- [04:09]
Al Murray
That's right, yes. So that's interesting, isn't it? Becomes a sapper, then he's gassed in 1917 at third eep. And then goes to the Mesh Machine Gun Corps. And, you know, he has a good First World War with a Military Cross and all that sort of thing, but then, you know, he's another one of these people. What do I do now? The Machine Gun Corps, disbanded after the First World War. And what he does then is he comes.
- [04:32]
James Holland
Exactly.
- [04:33]
Al Murray
Yeah. Paris Olympics, 1924. Modern pentathlon.
- [04:36]
James Holland
I know. There you are.
- [04:38]
Al Murray
That is the Chariots of Fire year.
- [04:40]
James Holland
He's just not sprinting. Well, he Is sprinting. But. But he's in.
- [04:42]
Al Murray
Yeah, but he's in the background somewhere. Is he lobbing something as they're running. As they're running around.
- [04:47]
James Holland
Oh, cheese, old boy.
- [04:50]
Al Murray
And. But he goes to the Staff College to go to Camberley, so, you know, he's on his way up and through the army.
- [04:54]
James Holland
Yeah.
- [04:55]
Al Murray
And again, someone else who's an instructor at the Staff College. And if you, you know, listen to our last episode, a lot of these people have not only trained there, but they've taught there. I mean, the other thing, everyone knows everyone. The British army might be one of the larger one of the armies in the interwar years in the world, because it's a big imperial army, but everyone at this level knows everyone else.
- [05:13]
James Holland
Yeah, but like Dempsey, he's only a half colonel in 1939. He's a battalion commander, nothing more. He's not a general, you know. Again, so.
- [05:20]
Al Murray
Yeah, in Monty's third div. So. With the Middlesex Regiment, 2nd Battalion.
- [05:24]
James Holland
So Monty gets to see him.
- [05:26]
Al Murray
Yeah. Sees how he operates.
- [05:28]
James Holland
Likes the colour of a jib, likes the fact that Horrocks doesn't quibble. He's not a bellyacher.
- [05:32]
Al Murray
Yeah. But rather than sort of being sort of incubated under Monty's watchful eye in Britain, in England, he's sent to the Middle east in 1941 and with a brigade command. So. 11th Indian Infantry Brigade, which, after all.
- [05:44]
James Holland
Because of his sort of Indian army background.
- [05:46]
Al Murray
Exactly. That's a sort of reasonable sort of situation to find himself in. But then he's. I mean, it's interesting. Sorocks is wounded at least twice, isn't he, during the war?
- [05:54]
James Holland
Very badly. Very badly, yeah.
- [05:56]
Al Murray
Wounded in the chest during Operation Crusader, November 1941, fighting the Italians. Escapes, rejoins 8th army and then is promoted to Major General. So this is clearly. He's clearly one of the sort of coming men in 8th Army.
- [06:09]
James Holland
And he's now got a bit of experience. You know, he's been in France in 1940. He's done Dunkirk. He's now been in the early years of the Desert War and survived.
- [06:17]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [06:17]
James Holland
And he's. When he's promoted Major General, he gets given command of 9th Armored Division, which. Which is quite odd because he's an infantryman. He has no experience of armor whatsoever.
- [06:25]
Al Murray
Yeah. I mean, this is meteoric, isn't he? Because he's a. As you said, he's a battalion commander in 1940. In 1942, he's promoted to lieutenant general and is commander of 13 Corps under Monty in August 1942. And that is. That is absolute. That is meteoric, isn't it?
- [06:39]
James Holland
Yes. And the reason he gets in is because Monty is absolute sick. The back teeth of all the belly Acres doesn't like them, gets rid of a whole load of them. There's a sort of clear out of eight farmy Top Command. And he thinks, well, I remember Horrocks, he was jolly good chapter. Um. He did what I told him to when I. When we were in third Div. He'd be the man. I mean, it's interesting, though, he doesn't get any higher than Lieutenant General. No, I mean, that's still pretty high, to be fair. But, you know. Although as soon as you get there, he's. He's. He's defending alum Halford Ridge and does so and does a pretty good job, to be fair.
- [07:05]
Al Murray
Yeah. Then he's offered Tencor, which is the corps de chasse, sort of cavalry people. But he declines, doesn't he? Which I think is very interesting because he thinks I don't know enough about armour.
- [07:13]
James Holland
And I think. And I don't want to cock it up and ruin my career.
- [07:15]
Al Murray
But also, that's very Monty, though, isn't it? It's. In the end, if someone thinks they can't do something, Monty would rather know that than say, yeah, I'll give it a go, sir.
- [07:23]
James Holland
Well, he just thinks he needs a bit of a, you know, to see how it all works first.
- [07:26]
Al Murray
Yeah. He does then get given 10 core later in the year. Dempsey comes into 13 core. We talked about Dempsey in the last episode. And is there to the end of the fighting in North Africa, isn't he?
- [07:37]
James Holland
Yeah, but he really fluffs it. At the wadi accurate beginning of April 1943, this is where. Where the 4th Indian Division outflanked the Italian 1st army, which is what used to be the Panzer army Africa under Rommel. But it's had one of its kind of sort of name changes.
- [07:53]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [07:53]
James Holland
The whole point is that they've outflanked them, cut in behind them, and the opportunity is there for 10th Corps to storm through and they're very slow getting going. Instead of going at kind of 10 in the morning, 9 in the morning, it's not till 2 in the afternoon or something, they finally get going, by which point the Italians have retreated and the kind of moment has passed. So he absolutely fluffs that. He then gets transferred to Command 9 Corps temporarily in 1st army because 8th army has been put on hold in Feeder on the eastern side of Tunisia. So he gets transferred into first army. And it is his corps that launches Operation Strike. But it is not his concept. It's Tuka's concept, Operation Strike. But. But he does benefit from the dramatic success of Operation Strike, there's no question about it. But he then gets. He then gets very, very badly wounded.
- [08:37]
Al Murray
He's strafed, isn't he?
- [08:38]
James Holland
Yeah.
- [08:39]
Al Murray
So he's in a very bad way. Basically means he's. He's sort of on hold, isn't he, for a little while, then comes back in Northwest Europe. Basically comes back after he's recovered, is brought in to replace bucknell, who's commanding 30 Corps. Bucknell's fired for being slow.
- [08:56]
James Holland
Operation Bluecoat. The end of Very Beginning of August. Yeah.
- [08:59]
Al Murray
Yeah. Which I think Bluecoat goes quite well, really. So that seems. I think that's a little unfair.
- [09:03]
James Holland
Yeah. They're a bit sticky. But it's Dempsey Sax, him, not Monty.
- [09:05]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The door is held open once again for Horrocks. And he then runs 30 Corps to the end of the war, Northern Germany.
- [09:12]
James Holland
And I think we all know it does very well. You know, you can't hold Wadi Yakura against him forever.
- [09:17]
Al Murray
No. And. Or Market Garden. Because I think the thing we've reflected on is actually 30 Corps are relatively quick, given what's being asked, and also the state they're in by that stage of the war. This is not the start of normandy. September of 1944. If you're guards armoured, is it much more attritted than you at your prime? And then, you know, he's involved in all those big slugging matches in the winter of 44, 45, particularly bad winter. And, you know, gets all the way to the end of the war.
- [09:42]
James Holland
Yeah. And he's liked. You know, everyone likes him. He's approachable, he's warm, he's got sense of humor. You know, he's clearly got a bit of personal charisma. I remember Stanley Kristofferson really rated him, really liked him, thought he was terrific. And he's got a. You know, he's got terrific frontline presence. You know, he's. He's a very visible commander. He goes and talks to the troops. You know, he's not a kind of chateau general by any stretch of the imagination.
- [10:04]
Al Murray
Well. And if people want to sort of get beyond Edward Fox's turn as him in A Bridge Too Far, people want to get us a proper whiff of him. He had a TV series explaining how things worked, you know, and he sat there, it's all on YouTube. And he sat there going, right, so obviously this was a rather sticky day and all that sort of thing with maps and charts and models and all that sort of thing.
- [10:21]
James Holland
You know, he was. He was, he was very good, very competent, very good. I mean, he wouldn't ever say he was a sort of great tactician, a great thinker or anything like that.
- [10:29]
Al Murray
He.
- [10:30]
James Holland
He's famous, isn't he, because of A Bridge Too Far and because of his TV series and because of his books and because Monty called him Jorux. It's not because of his immense talent. I mean, he's, he's very, very good. He's not top rate, is he?
- [10:42]
Al Murray
No. And I think, well, he's a good corps commander, isn't he? But he would never be an army commander.
- [10:46]
James Holland
No. Why isn't he go beyond lieutenant general? Because that's his level.
- [10:49]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, right.
- [10:50]
James Holland
General Sir Richard Dick McCreary, who's got Nilpoix at the time of recording.
- [10:54]
Al Murray
Well, go for it, Jim.
- [10:55]
James Holland
He's a. He's a. He's a remarkable guy. He is supremely competent, this guy, in a number of different roles. So he's, he's young. 1898. He does get into the First World War. Gets commissioned into the 12th Royal Lancers in 1916. Serves on the Western Front, does very well. Wounded in action, 1917, ward of the MC, leading patrols under fire. Develops early expertise in cavalry maneuver reconnaissance, you know, and this translates very well into armored warfare later on. Right, right between the wars and obviously into the Second World War. And, you know, as you say, he's another of these guys, he's just, you know, ticks all the boxes, you know, he's been in the British army of the Rhine, he's been in India. He's done staff college. Tick, tick, tick. He served Brigade Major major of the 2nd Cavalry Brigade, then in mechanized units. And by the outbreak of the Second World War, he's already, even though he's still very young, he's only 41, he's considered one of the Army's most capable cavalry to Armour Transitional Officers.
- [11:51]
Al Murray
Yeah. Because they know they need them. And so if you're specializing that, you've got a bright career ahead of you, haven't you?
- [11:55]
James Holland
Yep. He's a staff officer in the BEF in 1940, but then is involved more directly in the rear guard and evacuation operations. Do you remember all those forces that get made Mac Force and all the rest of it. So suddenly it's kind of staff suddenly having to kind of hold a front. So he's Involved in that. Then he goes over to North Africa.
- [12:12]
Al Murray
Yep.
- [12:12]
James Holland
And again becomes a brilliant staff officer. So he understands about planning. He's meticulous, all the rest of it. He serves under Neil Ritchie. He's a key planner for Operation Crusader, which after all is a great success when it happens in November, December 1941. This is one in the areas is under General Cunningham as Army commander. Takes over 8th Armored Brigade, then 7th Armored Division, serves under Montgomery in 8th Army. Commands a corps later in the North Africa.
- [12:38]
Al Murray
But he.
- [12:38]
James Holland
But he's. He is Chief of Staff to Alexander. Yeah, in Tunisia. So he's suddenly seen the kind of top level. He's seen absolutely the top. He sees how this Army Group commander works. I mean, to be Chief of Staff to Alexander at that time is a really, really promposing. Then he gets promoted to command 10 Corps during the Italian campaign. So this is Salerno in Operation Avalanche. So it's very well under Mark Clark, very collegiately, very good as coalition commander. Yes, he's been a staff officer, but he's also seen tons of action as well. By this point. He is very well placed to be given a corps of his own. He understands how a Kymania corps works. He understands about armoured warfare, he understands about combined arms warfare. And he's very successful as 10 Korps commander. You know, this is Operation Avalanche, invasion of Salerno. Landings at Salerno in September 1943. All the way up through that. Very tricky stuff. He's in 5th army, so he's an American Army, British, you know, 2 Division, sometimes 3 Division Corps. He's at the lower half of the Gustav Line, you know, this is first and the Bernhard line. So this is Monte Camino and all that kind of stuff in November to December 1943. Then it's the Garrilliano front down on the southern end, you know, the southwestern end of the front. Eventually he gets promoted to 8th army commander when Lees is moved bumped upstairs to the Far east and does it very, very well. I mean, you know, he is Army Commander during operation Grapeshot, the 1945 spring 1945 offensive breaks through the graphic line, defences, crosses River Po, bounces up the Alps. You know, he's really seriously good. He could easily have been Army Group Commander rather than Clark. He is supremely competent, deserves to be far better known than he is.
- [14:20]
Al Murray
Even some of our more dedicated listeners might not be able to direct you towards who he was. You know what I mean? He's. We do run into these names occasionally, and in particular even more on the American Side, we think, never like general.
- [14:32]
James Holland
Call it, or people like that, you know, who are they now?
- [14:34]
Al Murray
Who are they now? Exactly. Yeah.
- [14:36]
James Holland
So, you know, he's right up there as among the very best, most competent senior commanders that the British have in the Second World War. And his range of. His range of jobs and tasks and talents is, you know, he's super bright.
- [14:50]
Al Murray
And he accepts the German surrender in Italy on the 2nd of May. So it's him taking that surrender.
- [14:55]
James Holland
Yeah, he's pretty good. He deserves more than. No percent.
- [14:58]
Al Murray
No.
- [15:03]
James Holland
Well, maybe he doesn't, because, you know, now we're on to Monty, Manny in lots of ways.
- [15:07]
Al Murray
I mean, we've talked about Manny a lot on the podcast. I think what's really interesting is there is a mold emerging, isn't there, of the kind of people that get to the top of the British Army. And Monty's completely typical of this. You know, he's born in the 1880s, 1887. He's Anglo Irish. His dad's a vicar, becomes Bishop of.
- [15:24]
James Holland
Tasmania, briefly lived next to the Oval Cricket.
- [15:27]
Al Murray
Yep. And he goes to St. Paul's which was in Hammersmith, and then to Sandhurst. In his memoir, he tells all these stories about I came last in my class at Sandhurst and all this sort of thing, but, you know, those. The records of that don't exist. They were lost. So there's no way of actually checking. I remember talking to a historian at Sandhurst who's going, well, you know, I think that might be Monty saying, look, you know, I was brilliant but misunderstood.
- [15:48]
James Holland
I was a maverick. Like Ulysses S. Grant.
- [15:50]
Al Murray
Exactly. I'm a maverick. Exactly. And, you know, there's a story of him burning, setting fire to someone's britches or something.
- [15:56]
James Holland
Is that his shirt tails?
- [15:57]
Al Murray
Shirt tails, isn't it? That's right. In a sort of prank.
- [15:59]
James Holland
Yeah. I mean, what could be more fun?
- [16:01]
Al Murray
Well, you know, it's hijinks, isn't it? And he ends up in the Warwickshires. And then the First World War comes. And this is the thing, like all of these people. But Monty's First World War experience is very interesting, isn't it?
- [16:10]
James Holland
Because he. Shot in the chest.
- [16:12]
Al Murray
Yeah, shot in the chest. Early in October of 1914. The guy who goes out to go and get in, the sergeant, is killed on top of him. And the sniper, the rifleman, shooting at them, fires loads more rounds at them and into the pair of them. And, you know, he thinks he's going to die. He's rescued and recovers, but basically he can't go to the Front. He can't be a frontline soldier anymore. It's deemed his health isn't up to it. So he gets into staff positions because he loves the army. He particularly starts to love the army once there's some fighting as well. It's the interesting thing about Monty, he really loves the fighting and he understands how the British army works sort of under the bonnet, doesn't he? He understands the planning. And again we come back to planning, training, discipline, this sort of axiomatic stuff.
- [16:51]
James Holland
Staff garage Camberley, late service instructor, but he commands the 1st Battalion of the Royal Warwicksh Regiment in action in Palestine during the Arab revolt of 1936-39.
- [17:01]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah. Writes the infantry manual as well at one point in the 30s. He's very tied into what the army thinking is if he doesn't like you, he's abrasive. If he does like you, he's not. What it comes down to, isn't it the people who think he's abrasive, basically, because he doesn't rate them and the people who think he's great, it's because he rates them. It's quite simple. It's quite simple. So transactional thing with Montgomery, isn't it, on some level. He's called back from Palestine when war breaks out. He has a moment on the ship where he has pneumonia or something and thinks he's not going to be to get himself together and be healthy enough to go to work in France, but recovers.
- [17:32]
James Holland
Yeah. And he loses his wife as well, which is a great tragedy.
- [17:35]
Al Murray
Yes. Loses his wife to sepsis or something, you know, she's bitten by an insect and they amputate her leg and she dies anyway. And she is a bohemian and an artist and Percy Hobart sister, interestingly. And so he's got this whole. This hinterland of sort of artistic people that he hung out with who found him hilarious.
- [17:51]
James Holland
Yeah. And wasn't really reflected in his Desert island discs.
- [17:55]
Al Murray
No. But basically he has a good BF campaign.
- [17:59]
James Holland
Very good BF campaign. And where he. I mean, he is the standout divisional commander because he executes this 50 mile route march overnight, 45 mile route march overnight, the whole division leapfrogging behind to fill the gap of the vacating Belgians. And it saves the day. I mean, you know, there's absolutely no question about this, an incredible feat. And okay, he's got lots of planners and other people and staff and all the rest of it to do it, but it comes down from the top, it filters down from the top and you know, it's brilliant operation and I don't think there's many people in the BEF who could have done that.
- [18:31]
Al Murray
No, Brooke of course, who's his direct boss in France, recognizes this in him and sees that although Monty's sort of tricky to handle, so he's given two corps and then southeast of command preparing for invasion, but basically combing through the army and bringing up to scratch is what it comes down to, isn't it?
- [18:48]
James Holland
And he's also earmarked for first army, isn't he? Yeah, first of all it's going to be some guy who's something like Stibitz or something like that. I can't remember his name, it's someone sort of German sounding. Then he's not fought right. Then it's Alexander. Then Alexander gets moved to Commander in Chief of the Middle east. So then It's Monty, he's third choice. Then he gets moved over to 8th Army. So then it's Anderson. So Anderson is actually fourth choice.
- [19:09]
Al Murray
Yeah, but basically his big break comes when Organleck's removed and Gott is shot down, killed. And Monty ends up with Alex as his actual boss with the job of getting hold of 8th army and turning it round, getting it ready to fight the battle. It's going to have to fight at second Alamein. You know, I think one of the problems with Monty's after the war he says, well it was all my idea and I wasn't I brilliant? But actually what he's quite good at is taking suggestions and taking other people's ideas on board.
- [19:38]
James Holland
Cue back to an earlier bit where Alexander kind of puts him right for Operation Supercharger. It's the second half of the Alamein battle plan. Yeah, but, but you know, he does very, very well. You know, it is he who is transforming 8th army and their morale and self belief is just so important. And what he understands absolutely instinctively what can be expected from his men, you know, as a tactician I think he's okay. I mean he's no great shakes, but so what? What he is brilliant at is he understands a strategic picture. He knows how to get what he wants and get what he wants done. And he's a brilliant operational commander and frankly in the Second World War by this point where they're not going to lose operational commanders is what you really want. You know, it's all very well having flair, but what you really want is people that can manage their resources, whether it be mechanical or human, as well as possible. And he's exceptional in this. He does very well in Sicily it is him who says, this plan ain't working. And let's face it, you know, above him are Eisenhower and Beedles Smith and Alex and Patton and various other people. And he's the one who says. And Tedder and Cunningham and all these senior commanders. He's the one who actually says, these are the issues we need to bear when we're thinking about the plan. This cannot fail. That has to supersede everything. All other considerations doesn't matter. You know, obviously we want to win in two weeks, but it doesn't really matter. What really matters is that this doesn't fail. That's our start point. Work backwards and that's our plan. And it's very successful. You know, Sicily has taken in 36 days. And yes, okay, they get a bit bogged down in the Catania play and all the rest of it. Who cares? It doesn't matter. The point is they're going to win. It is going to be a triumph. It is going to knock Italy out of the war, all the rest of it. He then does perfectly well in Italy in very difficult circumstances. I mean, it's not his finest moment. But that's nothing to do with him. You know, he does as well as he could possibly have expected. His big thing, though, is the planning overlord, because it is a team effort. It's tri service, it is international. But the buck stops with him. The buck, I suppose, stops with Eisenhower, but it is not his plan. But he is giving the shape and direction to it. And I totally disagree with Carlo d', Este, who wrote an entire book about the Normandy campaign about how bad his plan was. His plan is the best possible plan that could have been put in place for the 6th of June, 1944, bar none. And I'm just not having it. There is no alternative to that point of view.
- [21:56]
Al Murray
Yeah. And his ability to then adapt when it isn't working and all that. He is actually far more flexible than even he gives himself credit for.
- [22:04]
James Holland
Yeah, I think so. And, you know, Normandy is 1 in 77 days, not 90, which was what was predicted. It is a monstrous victory. I mean, you know, two German armies completely smashed. I mean, okay, a few remnants get through the Falaise Gap, who cares? I mean, the point is, it is a walloping victory and he is one of the chief architects of that.
- [22:27]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [22:28]
James Holland
And you know, and his management of the rest of 21st Army Group, where at the end of the war, Britain has to have a seat at the top table. They have to minimize casualties, but they have to be really absolute the forefront of all the major actions. His part in that is a masterpiece. Tick. Yes. They do have a seat at the top table. Tick. They do get the first unconditional surrender in northwest Europe. Tick. They do have huge swathes under his direct command. Tick. He does have huge influence so you know hats off. And you can say oh well you know Patton got across the Rhine quicker than you know with less fast or rest of it balls to that. You know Varsity was a brilliant plan. Plunder was a brilliant plan and you know all his major operations enhance British military power for the post war rather than detracting. That is his remit.
- [23:12]
Al Murray
Who did the Germans come to surrender to first?
- [23:14]
James Holland
Quite. Yep. Rest of the case. So he so he's exceptionally good.
- [23:17]
Al Murray
Okay well we need to take a quick break before we do our last couple of candidates and I mean you know there's some strong views there and go and vote. Please do. We'll see you in a moment.
- [23:28]
James Holland
Put us in a box.
- [23:30]
Christian McCaffrey
Go ahead.
- [23:32]
James Holland
That just gives us something to break.
- [23:34]
Christian McCaffrey
Out of because the next generation 2025.
- [23:37]
James Holland
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- [24:09]
Al Murray
3.
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James Holland
No big contracts. 4. I use it. 5. My mom uses it. Are you. Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com she's made up her mind to live pretty smart Learn to budget responsibly right from the start she spends a little less and puts more into savings Keeps her blood pressure low and credit score raises she's cutting debt right out of her life she tracks her cash flow on a spreadsheet at night Boring money moves make kind of lame songs but they sound pretty sweet to your wallet BNC Bank Brilliantly boring since 1865.
- [25:01]
Al Murray
Welcome back to we have ways of making you talk Best to the West Episode 2 of 6 There's a Lot of this stuff to get through as you're probably realizing.
- [25:09]
James Holland
Yeah, so I'm Afraid we're gonna have to rattle through the next three. But it's important that you do Alexander and Monty in a big way, because they're huge.
- [25:14]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Lieutenant General Sir Leslie Moore's head, Jim.
- [25:18]
James Holland
Well, he is, again, he's. He's extremely competent. I mean, you can't really fault what he does, I guess the most famous of all the Australian generals.
- [25:26]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [25:27]
James Holland
But, you know, you cannot escape the fact that Australia's contribution is less than Britain's in terms of numbers because it's a smaller country. And also, he's only in the west for a very small bit. You know, actually, his greatest efforts really come in the Far east, you know, when we do the best in the Pacific, Best of Aries, whatever we want to call it, you know, he's going to have to go in again, I think.
- [25:47]
Al Murray
I mean, the Australian effort is also tempered by the politics of the collapse of Singapore and all this sort of stuff, and Australia turning to the Americans, as it were, as a result. You've got to love it. His mantra. No one ever won a battle by sitting in their foxhole. You've got to love that.
- [26:02]
James Holland
And he's. And he's the commanding officer for the siege of Tobruk, which resists all efforts by the Germans and Italians to throw in the towel. And he's pretty darn good in the battle of Alamein as well. I mean, it is the Australians who do the breakthrough in the north that unlocks the whole position, you know, so is the Aussies, So, you know, he's pretty good.
- [26:19]
Al Murray
Yeah. And what he's good at is aggressive patrolling. He's good at combined arms. And I mean, again, it's combined arms attack. It's the thing, isn't it?
- [26:27]
James Holland
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's done the First World War and he's been wounded and he's kind of got his dso.
- [26:32]
Al Murray
And, you know, I do like his nickname, though. Ming the Merciless.
- [26:38]
James Holland
Yeah. But no, it's not for his brutalities, that's. He's keen on turnout, but, you know, he can't seriously be considered as the best in the west because he's. He's out of the picture by 1942.
- [26:49]
Al Murray
Okay. So that's all we've got time for for him.
- [26:53]
James Holland
Sorry, mate, but it's fair dinkum svetinka, mate. Well, and now we've got Dick o'. Connor. Now, he is a key player. I think he's one of the. You know, he. He would have been an army group commander. I'm sure. And he absolutely would have commanded 8th army, but, you know, he goes and gets captured. But okay, let's go back to him. Born in 1889, Srinagar Kashmir, British India. You know, here we go. Yeah. Wellington College, Royal Military College, Sandhurst. Commissioned into the 2nd Battalion, the Cameronians, Scottish Rifles, 1909. He's right there at the start in 1914. Sees action, first battle of the Somme. Aras Battalion Command. Award of the Military Cross. Dso, five mentions in dispatches. Ends the war as Brigade Major. So he gains operational planning experience alongside frontline command. So, you know, that puts him in very good position, you know, again, you know, between the war, he. Stuff college, Camberley, blah, blah, blah. Serves India, Egypt, Middle East. Hull's battalion and Brigade Commands. Promoted to Colonel in 1935, Brigadier, 1938, during the Arab revolt. So he's in place in the. In the Middle east, yeah. And at the outbreak of war, he's appointed General Officer commanding of the 7th Infantry Division. But anyway, he's. He's in France in 1940. Demonstrates flexibility and maneuver and ability to coordinate rear guard actions. So another huge tick. But after returning home from France, he's then promoted to Lieutenant General Quite early on.
- [28:15]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [28:16]
James Holland
You know, so he's again earmarked, sent out to Egypt, a commander of the Western desert force under General Archibald Wavell's Middle East Command. And it's only two divisions, 7th Armored and the 4th Indian Division, plus a few sort of, you know, supporting engineers and artillery and all the rest of it. And he absolutely whips the Italians ass.
- [28:36]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [28:36]
James Holland
Operation Compass, December 1940. Absolutely. Jock columns. This is maneuver warfare, mechanized warfare in the desert. Runs absolute rings around The Italians. Defeats two entire armies. Puts 133,000 out of 170,000 in the bag. I mean, it is absolutely extraordinary. Gets all the way through Sarniak to el Agala by April 1941, by which point Rommel's there and, you know, he's got his overextended lines of lines of supply. You know, the problem is he's just at the point where he really has an opportunity to kick the embryonic Deutsche Afrikakorps into the touch. A load of his troops get withdrawn for Greece right in March 1941. So at the moment of highest momentum, when he really could have cleaned up Libya once and for all, his forces are reduced. And at that same time, him and Philip Neame, they're captured. They actually accidentally drive into a roadblock and they're captured. And suddenly at a trice, you know, one of the most successful, brilliant, experienced commanders that Britain has, who's absolutely got it. He understands all arms warfare, he understands mobile warfare. You know, he's our very own Rommel. Gets put in the bag, which is terrible. And he spends the next couple of years in a prisoner of war camp near Florence, constantly trying to escape. Does escape at the Italian armistice. You know, the doors are. Get the. You know, the guards just go. And he makes his way back through the Apennines to reach Allied lines in via Switzerland.
- [30:01]
Al Murray
Incredible.
- [30:02]
James Holland
And returns to duty.
- [30:03]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [30:03]
James Holland
And in early 1944, with his strength recovered, he's appointed GOC of General Officer Kamani of VIII Corps, which is going to be part of Second Army. Bimbo Dempsey's Second Army. You know, he could have, should have been commanding that army. I mean, you know, Dempsey's really, really good, but that. The writing is on the wall. For that to be o', Connors, there's no reason why not. The only reason why not is because he spent two years in a prisoner war camp, you know, but just think where he could have been. I mean, he, he, He's a brilliant commander and his performance in Normandy is exceptional. You know, he's brilliant in Epsom, brilliant in Goodwood, I think brilliant in Bluecoat. You know, it is Bluecoat, after all, that is the great breakthrough for British second army. And it is. It's a two core front. It's 30 core on the. On the east and left side. O' Connor's eight core on the west and right hand side, and it is eight corps. That goes something like 16 miles on the first day.
- [30:54]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [30:55]
James Holland
Absolutely wipes the floor compared to 30 core, which is, of course, what leads to Butnell being sacked and horrors taking over. He doesn't really put a foot wrong.
- [31:03]
Al Murray
Yeah. And then again, he's there till the end in Germany, that liberates Brussels, holds the northern flank of the Battle of the Bulge. He's part of Plunder. You know, I think. I think it is really interesting, isn't it? Because as you were saying earlier on, you know, you'd be in the right place, right time. You were saying that about McCreevey. You know, you've got to be in the right place at the right time. Basically, if you're in post, when you're winning, you're going to go to the top. And o' Connor's problem is he just disappears essentially from the. From the cogs.
- [31:30]
James Holland
I think more power to him for keeping up to speed and getting. I mean, he just slots straight back into eight Court, he gets it. And this is kind of frustration with him because of what might have been. But, but even so, despite those two years as a, as a p. Just think about what he's done. He's been in the Middle east, he's been in France in 1940. He's done a very good job in 1940, you know, albeit part of the BEF that has to evacuate from Dunkirk. But he does, he then does an outstanding, a truly remarkable effort. It's one of the great British achievements of the war. A force of 36,000 men to overrun two armies of 170,000 men. That's something that not even the Germans do. It's not even what, you know, the Japanese, even Japanese don't barely do that. It's exceptional. Then he comes back and he just doesn't really put a foot wrong at all in Northwest Europe. So he's there in. He's in Europe, he's in the Middle east, he's in North Africa. Then has the personal courage to get out and escape and get back to the lines, but he's still there at the end doing a superb job. You know, he is, he's. He's one of the great generals that we've never, you know, army commanders that we've not had. And he really deserves very serious contention. He's an outstanding commander and I put him above pretty much all the others, you know, the McCreary's and Dempsey's. I think, I think he's. I do think he's in a different caliber.
- [32:44]
Al Murray
Okay. After all, we're being inclusive of our dominions, colleagues, friends and allies. Our next candidate is General Guy Simmons.
- [32:52]
James Holland
Of course, Simmons Simons. I never know how to pronounce.
- [32:54]
Al Murray
You know. You know what, I don't know. And I think it's a name I've only ever read rather than heard anyone say out loud. Isn't that interesting?
- [33:02]
James Holland
Because I always kind of think with a wire be Simon's.
- [33:04]
Al Murray
Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, now he's one of the real youngsters in this bunch. He's born in 1903, which means he doesn't have the First World War in his career.
- [33:12]
James Holland
He's British, emigrates to Canada as a, as a 16 year old, doesn't he?
- [33:16]
Al Murray
Yeah, from Bury St. Edmonds. He's a product of Canadian military system. So. Royal Military College of Canada, Kingston, Ontario, graduating in 1925.
- [33:26]
James Holland
Hasn't served in the First World War II. Young.
- [33:28]
Al Murray
No, exactly. So that's quite, that's quite an interesting time to Join the army if you're Canadian, isn't it? Maybe you think, well, we won't be doing that again, thanks very much. We'd rather not, if it's all the same to you. He's interesting, isn't he? So he's a gunner, he's another artilleryman and he's sharp, he's analytical, he's got a strong work ethic. And sort of in between the wars, although it sort of doesn't really count as in between the wars, this is just his career because he's not a wartime soldier who's, you know, a brevet major who's been busted back down to whatever. You know, it's this thing of. He's got various artillery postings in Canada and Britain. He comes to Camberley to the staff college, which is of course where he gets to know everyone and gets to see the sort of temperature in the British Army. And he's interested in mechanization, mobile warfare theory. So he's keeping up with the coming thinking and then again, here we go, he becomes an instructor. So I think what's so interesting about so many of these people who go through this interwar period of new thinking and modernization is that a lot of them, like they drink the milk and then they distribute it themselves, if you see what I mean. They then spread the word at the outbreak of the war. He's in the Canadian 1st Infantry Division as a general staff officer. And of course they come to Britain, don't they? And they're there forever waiting for something to do. Bad run of the things for the Canadians in that regard. He's involved in the planning for Sicily and then the big job comes in. So he gets the 1st Canadian Infantry Division for Husky and you know, he does well there. And this, I mean, basically the stuff the Canadians do in Sicily is absolutely incredible, isn't it?
- [34:53]
James Holland
Yeah, it is. It's very impressive. Acero and all the rest of it and Neon Forte and Agera, a wild.
- [35:00]
Al Murray
Terrain and incredible things that they do. And then he's in early 44, he gets the two Canadian Corps job back in Britain, which is for the invasion of northwest Europe. And they're going to be the sort of as fundamental part of the invasion as anyone else. The Canadians, they're not a bolt on in any. In any way. And he runs Canadian 2 Corps battle operation Totalise, which is using all sorts of new ideas, APCs and stuff for kangaroos, which are defrocked priests, you know, the self propelled gun without the gun. He's really, really pushing hard to try.
- [35:33]
James Holland
And he's innovative, isn't he? Yeah, he's willing to sort of think outside the box, try and do things in a slightly different way. And although some of his tactics are a little bit controversial, you know, for the most part they're pretty effective.
- [35:44]
Al Murray
Yeah. And the other thing is, his is a more political command. These Duke Generals also have their own governments to sort of answer to and accommodate depending on how the battle's going. And you, the Canadians, of course, they're all volunteers. There's been resistance to conscription anyway. They're not going to conscript French Canadians, for instance. There's a tension in running a Canadian army in Normandy under British command. There is a political aspect to the job that I think is part of what Simmons is also having to deal with at the same time and can't be forgotten. You know, that's why he's innovating. He's trying to save the lives of his men. A lot of the time, you know, if you've got guys in APCs, they're not blundering around in the night trying to keep up the tanks, the tanks, you know, getting left behind or the tanks separated for the infantry, it's about taking care of people and making sure things run properly. And I think there's that little grain of the, of the political element of his command in what he's doing.
- [36:32]
James Holland
Yep. And he, and he does get a little. He gets a little whiff of army command because Harry Crowe is, is out the action for a bit in the autumn of 1944. So he's briefly kind of commanding it during all that shell campaign. You know, he's the first Canadian army commander. So he then reverts back to Tuko. But I mean, he has terrible temper, doesn't he? He's got. He's bad tempered. So. So, so his men don't love him. No, they respect him.
- [36:52]
Al Murray
Yeah. I think his temper might be because he's really clever and no one is. His frustration of having to explain things to people don't quite get it. I think it probably comes from that, doesn't it?
- [37:00]
James Holland
Yes, you bloody fool.
- [37:01]
Al Murray
Yeah, exactly. You bloody fools. Another very, very clever general is the last of our best in the West. And this is a particular favorite of yours, Jim, and someone I'm very, very interested in, which is Lieutenant General Sir Francis Ivan Sims. Tuka.
- [37:16]
James Holland
Yes.
- [37:17]
Al Murray
A born Tucker. Changes his name for some reason. Quite interesting. He's imperial. Born in Tobago, goes to school in Brighton, then goes to Sandhurst just before the First World War and goes into the Gurkhas via the Royal Sussex Regiment in 1914. So finds himself in India. He fights in all sorts of sort of bordery stuff. The kooky punitive expedition in the Assam hills, not far from where you know, the battles that then come in the 40s in Burma. And he's, he's a thinker, He's a.
- [37:47]
James Holland
He'S a, he's a terrific intellectual. He's, he's a very learning man. He's a, he's a great reader, he's a great tactician. He, you know, he knows his Hannibal, he knows his great wars. He's, you know, very, very dedicated student of warfare. He's also a very talented artist and actually nearly gives up frozen tower of the army in the 1920s, become a professional artist, decides not to stays and stays in the Indian army, but. But finds it very frustrating because, you know, he's just thinking, you know, what's the future of warfare? What's it going to be like? You know, what can we do? How can we be innovative? How can we get, you know, a steal a march on, on future enemies? And no one's really interested.
- [38:19]
Al Murray
Well, and also the Indian army's never gonna have to do any of that. The Indian army's job is border policing.
- [38:24]
James Holland
Well, yes, except that, you know, he can see the writing on the wall because, you know, he's learned and reads papers and listens to the news and all the rest of it. So he writes lots of articles under pseudonyms and things. And he's, he's actually running the staff college at Quetta at the start of the start of the war. And I think the big thing about him is he's very clinical, he's very future forward thinking. You know, when he comes over, before he takes over command of 4th Indian Division, he's sent, posted to the front and you know, it's he who the kind of the idiocy of the Gazala Line, for example, and says, you know, this is crazy, you just need to do this because X, Y and Z, you know, if you just reinforce to Brook, you know, Rommel can't isolate that. He has to confront it and then you'll beat him. Whereas, you know, if you have a line, you're strung out with all these boxes and stuff, you're stuck where you are. And literally everything that he suggests, he's right about. He's a meticulous trainer and he trains his men not just only in conventional, you know, ground warfare, but mountain warfare. That all super fit. They know how to kind of do different things, you know, whether it's dusty plains, whether it's desert, whether it's mountains. He puts them to their task in the Mat Martha Hills. And back in the Marath line, his big moment is at the Wadi Akarit, which Horrocks fails to exploit when his men, he says, well, I can go get up these mountains and turn the Italian line. And they do. And as we said before, you know, Operation Strike is his concept. And this is so successful, it's no longer famous because it happens so completely according to plan. And that's because the planning of it, the clarity of what everyone has to do, is so clear that it can't possibly fail. And he's absolutely spot on. In Italy, I'm a huge admirer. I think, you know, his, you know, like o', Connor, he's, you know, he's the great British army commander that we never had. I mean, you know, had you given him command of 8th army in 1942, it could have been, you know, it could have been him commanding. But he's ill, you know.
- [40:09]
Al Murray
Yeah, well, he's ill. And I think that, you know, Is he ill because of the stress of it? I think probably, yes.
- [40:15]
James Holland
No, he has rheumatoid arthritis.
- [40:16]
Al Murray
I know, but you know what I mean? Or he's tired, and that's why it can get him. I think probably part of his problem, the reason he doesn't ascend to such a lofty height in wartime, is that he's not very good at disagreeing with people and coping with disagreement and certainly, you know, doesn't really suffer fools, even fools higher rank than him is the problem that may be the impediment to Tuka's army career is that he's. Is that he is so brilliant. But I mean, it's very interesting after the war, he's involved in, you know, he wrote an amazing book about partition and about reorganizing the Indian army into two armies. He was the architect.
- [40:46]
James Holland
Architect of that, yeah. Yes, he was. He is quite clearly an absolutely brilliant man. His clarity of thought, his understanding of what the troops can do is comparable to Monty, I think, you know, that limitations and how far you can push them. His clarity to kind of read a situation in a position and work out what needs to be done. His forward thinking, his embracing of modernity and all the possibilities that modern warfare can bring an army commander and bring a commander, I think is, you know, he's very perceptive on that front. You know, what stops him from Being the very best of the west, is that he doesn't achieve high command, that he gets ill at absolutely the wrong moment. Had he not got ill at Casino, had Casino been a great victory, which it could have been, you know, he'd have ended up commanding corps. It could have been him in charge of 8th army rather than McCreary. You know, who knows?
- [41:35]
Al Murray
Anyway, those are this episode's best in the West Duke candidates. And don't forget to go to the Patreon and vote. So that was, of course, Horrocks, McCreary, Monty O', Connor, Simmons and Tuka. And there's some people we've not included. For instance, General Wavell has not come up, has he?
- [41:53]
James Holland
Well, famous, but not included.
- [41:55]
Al Murray
Phil Marshall, Gort, Jumbo Wilson, Oliver Lees. I mean, if you've listened to our recent Burma episodes, you know what we think of Oliver Lees. Poor old Freiberg.
- [42:03]
James Holland
Well, just because they all got sacked or they didn't do very well, really. I mean, Wilson did pretty well, actually, but he was a staff officer and, you know, he's not going to be a above Brooke, is he? So you can't include him, then. A few honorable mentions.
- [42:13]
Al Murray
Yeah. Hastings is me.
- [42:15]
James Holland
Yep.
- [42:15]
Al Murray
Sidney Kirkman. Edward Spears, of course, who did very well, you know, had an interesting war in 1940. General Sir Adrian Carton de Wyatt, who people always say, why don't you do a thing about him? Because he's quite clearly bonkers.
- [42:27]
James Holland
Yeah, I know. Well, we should do it one day.
- [42:28]
Al Murray
Alan Adair, Pitt Roberts, all these big names.
- [42:31]
James Holland
Ginger Hawksworth.
- [42:32]
Al Murray
You know what we want you to do, though, ladies and gentlemen? We want to vote on the Patreon. What we want is a top three of Duke from you, Jim. What's your top three, Duke?
- [42:42]
James Holland
My top three would be Alex. Monty o'. Connor.
- [42:45]
Al Murray
Okay. Mine would be, well, Manny, I'm gonna go. Here we go. Monty, Brooke, Percy Hobart.
- [42:54]
James Holland
You can't not have Alex.
- [42:56]
Al Murray
I'm not having Alex if I've got Brooke and Monty. As far as I'm concerned, they're the dream team. And supplying the hardware, Percy Hobart. But basically. So Hobart, obviously, is my wild card. So basically, we'd like you to vote and come to that kind of conclusion yourselves for us. And we will be talking about the Americans in our next episode of we have ways of making you talk best in the West. So we'll see you then. Cheerio.
- [43:20]
James Holland
Cheerio. Expedia. Vivimos paraviajar.