Rommel: Germany's Best General

Summary

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Podcast Summary: WW2 Pod – We Have Ways of Making You Talk

Episode: Rommel: Germany's Best General
Date: September 10, 2025
Hosts: Al Murray and James Holland

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Overview

In this episode, Al Murray and James Holland conclude their comprehensive ranking of German generals who served in the Western theatre during WWII, culminating in a spirited assessment of Field Marshal Erwin Rommel. Through lively discussion, deep expertise, and irreverent wit, the hosts evaluate each general’s strengths, shortcomings, and overall impact. The central question: Does Rommel truly deserve his legendary status as Germany's best general in the West?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Framing the "Best in the West" Debate

[02:13–03:17]

• The episode is the final installment in a mini-series evaluating WWII generals by theatre and nationality.
• Al and James explain that their methodology mimics a "Booker Prize" longlist-shortlist format, culminating in an in-person debate at the We Have Ways Fest.
• The goal is, humorously, to "settle for once the argument about who the finest commanding officers of the Second World War were" so “no one need ever argue about this again” (Murray, 02:58).

2. Critical Appraisal of German Generals

[03:35–47:17]

• The hosts work through influential German commanders, mixing biographical backgrounds, command critiques, and moral judgments.
  • Notably covered: Kesselring, Manstein, Manteuffel, Model, Senger und Etterlin, and Student.
• Each general’s performance, particularly in terms of tactical, operational, and strategic skill, is scrutinized with candor and wit.

Notable Discussions:

Albert Kesselring – "The Smiling Albert"

• Kesselring is depicted as a man "broadly seen as a good Nazi and a jolly good chap" (Murray, 03:51) but whose strategic capabilities are debunked.
• "He's a good tactical air force commander... but nothing more than that." (Holland, 11:33)
• The hosts sharply criticize his record in Italy, both for military decisions and for sanctioning brutal reprisals against civilians (10:23).

Erich von Manstein

• The myth of Manstein’s originality is dismissed.
• "There is nothing original about von Manstein's plan at all. Nothing at all. What is original is the execution." (Holland, 14:32)
• His contributions to the "Best in the West" argument are minimized—“he’s irrelevant to this because his only contribution is in 1940...a bit of a non event.” (15:46)

Walter Model – "Hitler’s Fireman"

• Model is praised for his defensive brilliance and adaptability, particularly when the tide of war had turned against Germany.
• "A leader who is placed in the most critical position will never disappoint. Personally exemplary in bravery, ruthless towards himself..." – von Kluge on Model (24:18)
• Humanized as both “unspeakably impressive” and capable of great speed and coordination in a crisis (22:50, 24:03).

Hasso von Manteuffel

• Respected for his tactical acumen and thoroughness, but regarded as lacking charisma or true vision (18:24).

Fridolin von Senger und Etterlin

• Described positively as a humane and principled officer, but not in the running for “best” due to command level and impact (41:01).

Kurt Student

• Recognized for innovation in airborne warfare; credited with influencing the Allies' own strategies (45:17).

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3. In-Depth Assessment: Erwin Rommel

[29:14–39:17]

Early Life and WWI

• Rommel is introduced as non-Prussian, dynamic, and creative—traits underpinning both his military and public persona.
• WWI exploits: heroics in the Alps, use of stormtrooper tactics, authorship of Infanterie Greift An (30:59).

WWII Campaigns

• 1940 France:
  • Blazes the path in the 7th Panzer Division, crossing the Meuse ahead of schedule, outmaneuvering opponents.
  • "Epitomizes the values of the new form of warfare. It's a poster boy for it in lots of ways" (Murray, 32:03).
• North Africa:
  • Takes command in 1941, quickly demonstrates audacity and tactical flair.
  • Greatest victory at Gazala and the capture of Tobruk, though hosts note British strategy blunders play a major role.
  • Overreaches at Alamein, failing to account for logistical realities and Allied air power.
• Tunisia & Later War:
  • Rommel’s late war activities—planning counterthrusts, dealing with command confusion, and advocating operationally sound strategies in Italy and France.
  • "His plans for Italy are the best plans and are ignored. And his plans for Normandy... are the correct plans and also ignored." (Holland, 38:12)

Command Philosophy & Legacy

• Hosts highlight Rommel’s front-line leadership, learning ability, and eventual understanding of operational and air power factors.
• Suggest his “greatest moments” may be in adversity rather than in his early, meteoric successes.
• "I've now come around to the view that actually he was really, really good... his vision, his leadership, his concept are the right ones. It’s just that he's not allowed to enact them." (Holland, 38:09)
• Points made about his moral standing: Rommel “doesn’t have to compromise himself on the Eastern front” and is ultimately forced into suicide after July 1944 (Holland, 39:09; Murray, 39:17).

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4. Final Rankings and Reflections

[46:13–47:58]

• The hosts offer their top-three Axis “best in the west” picks:
  • Murray: "Guderian, Student, Model" (Murray, 47:34)
  • Holland: "Rommel, Model, and Guderian" (Holland, 47:43)
• Both agree Model stands out for his ability to manage crises and marshal effective defensive resistance when Germany was in retreat.
• They note Rommel’s strengths as rooted in adaptability, learning, and practical leadership throughout many phases of the Western war.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Kesselring’s optimism:
  "His optimism is actually la la land. I mean, that is the truth of it." (Holland, 07:59)
• On Manstein’s “originality”:
  "There is nothing original about von Manstein's plan at all. Nothing at all. What is original is the execution. And that is down to Guderian..." (Holland, 14:32)
• On Rommel’s growth:
  "I think his greatest moment is his extraordinary victory, the Gazala Line... but he overcooked it. He doesn't really understand air power at this point, but he learns." (Holland, 32:23)
• Reassessing Rommel:
  "I've flip-flopped with Rommel...I've now come around to the view that actually he was really, really good." (Holland, 38:09)
• On Walter Model’s command style:
  "A leader who is placed in the most critical position will never disappoint... Performs very well." – von Kluge on Model (24:18)
• On German command dysfunction:
  "You can have brilliant people and you can have bad people... but the Allies still have someone in charge." (Murray, 35:32)
• On the futility of some campaigns:
  "The Ardennes is after all, a fool’s errand... a massive shower from start to finish." (Holland, 18:18)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:13] – Series structure and debate format outlined.
• [03:51] – Introduction to Kesselring; critique of tactical vs. strategic leadership.
• [11:18] – Assessment of Kesselring’s wartime crimes and postwar fate.
• [14:15] – Deconstructing Manstein’s reputation.
• [18:18] – Manteuffel's role in the Ardennes: "a massive shower from start to finish."
• [22:50] – Discussion of Model’s speed, initiative, and role in halting Allied advances and Market Garden.
• [24:18] – von Kluge’s evaluation of Model, read by Holland.
• [29:14] – The Rommel deep dive begins.
• [32:01] – Rommel’s North African campaign and its turning points.
• [38:09] – Holland’s revised judgment: Rommel’s ideas and vision were correct, even if ignored.
• [41:01] – Assessment of Senger und Etterlin’s limited strategic impact.
• [45:17] – Recognition of Student’s innovations and their impact on Allied doctrine.
• [46:13–47:58] – Final top-three rankings for “Best in the West” German generals.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a comprehensive, entertaining, and incisive assessment of Field Marshal Rommel’s true military value amidst a broad discussion of German generalship in the Western theatre. Challenging myth with nuance, Murray and Holland show that while Rommel’s reputation is not entirely unearned, Walter Model emerges as an underrated master of defensive warfare. The hosts’ banter and detailed debate offer fresh perspectives, making this an essential listen for anyone interested in WWII command, myth-making, and military history.

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Transcript

[Murray]

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[Murray]

Conditions applykenmachen I'm in a German mood, Jim.

[James Holland]

Yeah, no, no, no. Well, it's always funny, isn't it?

[Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

I mean, it wasn't back then, but it now is with the distance of time.

[Murray]

So welcome to the final part of Best in the west, which is our our definitive roundup of all the generals generally in the western theatres. Although some of these Germans have sort of been a bit peripatetic moving around because that's the nature of the mess they got themselves into.

[James Holland]

Yeah, let's, let's just, in this final episode, let's just remind everyone what's going on. So we've got 14 generals in the long list. This is like the kind of Booker Prize, isn't it? So there's a long list, then there's going to be a short list and then there can be only one. So, so how is this going to work? Is there's going to be three put forward from each category, which is then going to be debated at. We have waist fest. So there'll be a best in the West Duke, best in the West American, best in the West German, and then the final. The winners of each of those rounds will be debated in the final event, which will be on the Sunday morning. I think it's the last thing we're doing, isn't it?

[Murray]

I think it's the last thing we're doing. As the hangover's clear, we settle for once the argument about who the finest commanding officers of the Second World War were so that no one need ever argue about this again.

[James Holland]

I mean, obviously you've got strong views, I've got strong views.

[Murray]

But I can see university departments shutting down, publishing houses collapsing as a result of the death of the trade that we are about to bring about.

[James Holland]

You, Max Hastings, Anthony, Carlo d', Este, all losing influence as at last, last it is decided and agreed who is the best in the West.

[Murray]

If you find yourself making a TV program about the Second World War and trying to. The answers are here. They're here. And we have ways to make you talk.

[James Holland]

And I like to think already that we're steering people in a mildly different direction from the age old narrative. Let's change the age old narrative because our first guest on today's episode is none other than Generalfeld Marschall Albert Kesselring. Smiling Albert.

[Murray]

Smiling Albert, who is broadly seen as.

[James Holland]

A good Nazi and a jolly good chap and just a nice, decent, smiling, optimistic fellow in a world of mayhem and brilliant.

[Murray]

Fought a brilliant campaign in Italy, Jim. A brilliant campaign.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And all that. So he's born in 1885 in Bavaria. He's not from Prussia, he's from lowly, lowly, lowly stock. He initially pursues a civilian engineering career before joining the army in 1904 as a Fern rich in the Bavarian artillery. You know, where's the fun in that?

[Murray]

Yeah. Then works his way up commissioned staff.

[James Holland]

Roles, field batteries, frontline stuff. Ends a rank as a Houtman, a captain remains in the post war Reich fair, of course, but then leaves to become. He joins the newly created Luftwaffe in 1935. Yeah, despite having an artillery background. Because they think this is going to be forward artillery effectively. So they want artillerymen, they want people who understand about fire plans and all the rest of it. He rises up the ranks pretty quickly, you know, General Maillard in 1936, General Leutnant 1937, General der Flieger in 1938. By 1938, on the death of General Wiefe, who had been the chief of staff of Luftwaffe he gets killed in a flying crash and Kasserine takes over and doesn't do terribly well. He's in line with Jodl and Udet in favouring dive bombing over heavy bombers, which was very much Wiefa's plan and very much the kind of, you know, what, what Erhard Mihl is after. He has spats with milk, you know, so he, he moves out of the Luftwaffe general staff and gets a, gets effectively an air command lufte1 in Poland does pretty well. Where he really comes to the fore though is in France and Low Countries where he's commanding Le Flotta too. And he's really good at that.

[Murray]

But what's interesting, Jim, is the, the point at which he falls out with Milk. However we say it, we never did resolve it.

[James Holland]

Well, actually I've just been listening to you reading Ballabron and you go, Mish Milch.

[Murray]

Yeah, apparently it's milk. It's the most accurate way of pronouncing it. Anyway, the point is what he falls out with milk about is that he has no strategic sense. He's a tactical thinker and this is actually what characterizes the way things go forward in Kesselring's career. Yes, he does. Well, when Lufte I are a tactical air force, he's your man. When he's making tactical decisions, he's really, really good. The same in fal, Gelb, France, the Low Countries. You know, when he's with Lufte too, he's good at that. He's good at making tactical decisions. It's when he has to be strategic that he starts to sort of unravel. And I think, you know, the Battle of Britain, where he's intimately involved with trying to make that work. When we've talked about that on the podcast, and we shall again, trust us, is the Germans problem is they have no strategic sense of what they're doing at all.

[James Holland]

No, and he doesn't either. He absolutely doesn't.

[Murray]

And so it's interesting that at a time of strategic cluelessness, someone who is strategically clueless might obtain elevation. He's a general feld marshall in July of 1947. I mean that's amazing.

[James Holland]

Whole load of field marshals kind of created. And this is when Goering becomes a Reichsmarschal, the world's only six star general. And that's part of the kind of the flush of success of this huge great victory. As I, you know, Hitler to a certain extent is just sort of handed him out willy nilly. I mean, he's probably at this point, not really deserving of it, you know, Battle Britain is a failure and he has the largest air fleet and he should shoulder some of the burden of that, but he doesn't, you know, someone else's fault and it's not really considered the fault of the Luftwaffe particularly. And he does really well in Barbarossa where again, he's in a tactical role, a tactical air force again, and supporting ground operations. And that's all great. And also there's this feeling that he's genial and he gets on with people on the rest of it, which is why he's then appointed to be Oberfelschabe in the sud, Commander in chief of the south in the Mediterranean in 1941, which basically means that he is now the Wehrmacht commander in chief rather than specifically Luftwaffe. But to start off, he keeps his Luftwaffe 2 staff. And it's not actually until January 1943 that he finally creates a tri service hedge quarters in Rome. But anyway, he is the man who is responsible for blitzing Malta, you know, which is, after all, is not really a strategic operation either. It's a tactical operation and trying to support Rommel's Afrika Korps. And, you know, the truth is he has enough air forces to hammer Malta, but not enough to support Rommel at the same time.

[Murray]

Well, as ever, they can't do all the things they've committed to.

[James Holland]

And he is ridiculous in Tunisia. I mean, you know, when it comes to Tunisia campaign, he is telling Hitler what he wants. He's known as an optimistic fellow, but his optimism is actually la la land. I mean, that is the truth of. So Rommel is reporting a very, very clear picture of the situation. What can be achieved, what can't be achieved, what they need to do. And his best advice, he persuades the Italians, then Catherine goes, oh, no, no, it's all going to be fine, I'm going to do this. And, you know, I've got a much, much rosier outlook, which is what everyone wants to hear. And Hitler, of course, always goes at that. And so they get themselves into this terrible pickle where they're massively over committing to Tunisia in a situation where they can't possibly hope to win. And as a consequence of that, because it's across the sea, they lose all that material. I mean, they do something like 2,700 aircraft between November 1942 and May 1943 in North Africa, in the Mediterranean. I mean, that's a huge, huge number. All their ships are gone. You know, huge amount of a huge amount of war material.

[Murray]

Jimmy does a really great job as commander in Italy, everyone says so.

[James Holland]

Wow. Yes. But again, he's incredibly optimistic in Sicily. And you know, he does this really weird decision which is moving forward 15th Panzergrenadier Division from the centre of the island where they're very comfortable and know the ground, and replacing them with the Hermann Goering division which have just arrived and don't know it at all. I mean, why would you do that?

[Murray]

But Jim, all the history books say he fights a really great defence in Italy. Jim.

[James Holland]

Well, then we get to Italy and he makes a catastrophic decision at Salerno because he chucks all his eggs in one basket to try and push the Allies back into the sea, which is fine if you succeed. But he doesn't succeed, you know, by doing that, he leaves the back door open and that means he loses a fodge of airfields, which is an airman. He should know that.

[Murray]

Yeah, yeah. But Jimmy fin a really great defense. Everyone knows he fights this really great defence in Italy.

[James Holland]

The problem with that is then the Hitlerian spotlight is on him, which then means that, you know, he's then got to fight for every yard. And while every single German commander in Germany is going, this is nuts, we need to pull back to the Pisa remedy line, which is what eventually becomes the Gothic line. He goes, no, no, no, no, no, we need to fight south. And you know, his handling of his troops along the Gustav line In January and February 1944, yes, it prevents the Allied breakthrough, but these units are on their knees. And you know, what he is doing is sacrificing huge numbers troops when they haven't got a chance. I mean, it is cruelty to Kesselring or a naivety or just a sort of slavish devotion to Hitler, which is frankly disgraceful.

[Murray]

Are you saying he doesn't fight a good defensive campaign in Italy then?

[James Holland]

German? No, he fights a terrible one. And on top of that, he is the man who decides that there should be 10 Italians executed for every one German armed troop. Hitler wants to do 50. And he goes, well, I think if I can persuade him to go with 10. So 10 does it. And so on his watch is the Argentina cave massacre where 335 are Italians are killed in retribution for the 33 SS police troops that are killed in the Via Roselli. And you know, his, his campaign in Italy is marred by unspeakable numbers of civilian atrocities. People being strung up by lampposts, executions, rastroelementi, these, these clear up operations, all of which are on his Order. Incidentally, not Wolf's, who is the SS police chief. And you know he is sentenced to death at the end of the end of the war for war crimes. And only that is only commuted on the lobbying of his advers. It has to be said of one of which I'm afraid is Alex.

[Murray]

So Jim, if you were to. How many votes would you like there to be for Albert Kesselring? If it came to.

[James Holland]

I would prefer to see more points for Dick McCreary than he wouldn't get a single vote for me.

[Murray]

Okay. You think he should? He's a plain straight zero. Because he's no good.

[James Holland]

He's crap. He's a good tactical air force commander. Luftflotter. Fine, you know, in a ground coordination role, but nothing more than that.

[Murray]

But it demonstrates no strategic sense in Italy because if he'd shortened his line pulled but he'd have bunged up Italy forever. And he doesn't do do that. And in order to kill allied soldiers, he kills tons of his own. So, you know, well done. Slow hand clap. Right. But is he in the same league? And I think we're going to say no as Field Marshal Eric von Manstein.

[James Holland]

No. But I also think Eric von Manstein has been slightly over trumpeted.

[Murray]

Fantastic.

[James Holland]

If I'm honest.

[Murray]

Look, if you're driving listening to this, you need to pull over because I have some breaking news about Eric von Manstein.

[James Holland]

In that he was Prussian. He's got Vaughn in his name.

[Murray]

It's a proper marmalade drop of that, isn't it? He's Prussian. You're spluttering into your cornflakes if you're listening to breakfast. I hope you weren't doing a DIY task that have drilled through your hand. As a result of that shocking news.

[James Holland]

He comes from a long Prussian military tradition.

[Murray]

Exactly. He goes to the Prussian war Academy in 1913. What do you want? Eastern and Western fronts. No news on his Iron Cross. First and second class though here.

[James Holland]

Yeah, I think he gets them, stays in.

[Murray]

It's part of the Reichswehr, the hundred thousand strong army that's allowed after Versailles. Up he goes. Steadily rising through the ranks. He's a major general by 1936. He's deputy chief of Staff to General Fedorf Von Bock.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Murray]

And then he's part of the planning for the annexation of the Sudetenland, which.

[James Holland]

He doesn't think it's gonna work, so he's wrong on that. It works brilliantly.

[Murray]

I mean this is actually a major contribution that isn't a sort of battlefield thing is it's him that says we gotta get into the stug, the assault gun to support infantry.

[James Holland]

Okay, that's a tip for him, I'll give you that.

[Murray]

Yeah, you gotta give him that really. You know, he's living the stug life in Poland. He's von Runstead's chief of Staff, Army Group South. He does well, doesn't he, in Poland at that level. But the Manstein sort of footprint on history and the. And as you say, the sort of the bone of argument really as to was it. Was it really his idea or whatever is the von man, it's the von Manstein plan, right? Yeah.

[James Holland]

And you know, the von Manstein plan is the whole idea that this is his genius, is what delivers Victory in 1940 is just absurd. Because the sickle cut plan, this idea that you send Army Group A through the north and the obvious bit where the Allies are expecting, which he knows because of the Venlo incident, not the vent. Yes, it is Venno incident plans are handed over to the Allies for the Blitzkrieg in the west is that they will just go through the Low Countries. And so they don't just do that last time, they also do a sickle cut in 1914, because not only do they go through the London countries, they also try and go through the Ardennes and they go to Sudan and they cross across the River Meuse at the drapery Sedonaire, just as they do in 1870 in the Franco Prussian War.

[Murray]

I mean, this is a thing we talked about in the last episode, is a big thing that contributes in 1940 to the. The German genius is the absolute plum wittedness of their opponents, who in an attempt to win the war the same way, again, fail to notice how it was fought last time when it started.

[James Holland]

So I just want to be absolutely clear about this. There is nothing original about von Manstein's plan at all. Nothing at all. What is original is the execution. And that is down to Guderian and it is down to Halder for recognizing it is the only chance of success and presenting it in such a way to Hitler that Hitler is always going to go for it, and he does. So that's the key for things. So disabuse yourself of this fact.

[Murray]

And also, let's not forget there's lots of people fighting for credit at that particular moment, including Hitler himself.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And also. And also the plan that comes forward from von Manstein is also the plan of Gunter Bloementritt and Henning von Tresco. It is a tri planned thing.

[Murray]

I mean, I don't know. Von Manstein's easier to say than Blumen, Tripp or von Tresco, isn't it? I mean, it's something like that.

[James Holland]

But the bottom line is, and I think we can, we can swizz past most of this. He then spends the rest of the war on the Eastern front, you know, and we're not. This is best in the West. So he's not actually commanding any troops in the west at this point. He does in Poland, but he doesn't in the west battle. He's, he's got G Corps at this time. So he's not actually commanding anything in 1940. And you know, he's also responsible for war crimes. And he's a very skillful armored maneuverist and all the rest of it and a wily tactician, blah blah blah, and very learned. But he's irrelevant to this because his only his contribution is in the west because of 1940, which as we've just been talking about, is a bit of a non event.

[Murray]

Okay, next up, General Freiherr Hasso von Manteuffelop.

[James Holland]

The diminutive Hassle von Manteuffel P is for Prussian. You know, knee high to a grasshopper. Should have been a jockey.

[Murray]

Yeah, exactly. He's from Potsdam and he's from an.

[James Holland]

Aristocratic Prussian military background.

[Murray]

Yeah, I know this is all a bit of a surprise to the listener.

[James Holland]

I'm sure, but he's a bit younger. So he's born in 1897.

[Murray]

Yes, he's a little younger, isn't he? And he's a Hussar during the First World War, so.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Murray]

Which can't have been much fun.

[James Holland]

And he only wins the Iron Cross second class.

[Murray]

Yeah. But stays in. In the cavalry, in the tiny rifle.

[James Holland]

And guess what? He develops expertise in reconnaissance and mobile tactics and attends the Kriegs Academy. Guess what else he does? He transitions from traditional cavalry to mechanized units.

[Murray]

I mean, you've not got much choice. Right. If you're into horses at this point, you can either stay towing artillery pieces or you can join the tank people. And if you're a cavalryman, you're not interested in towing artillery pieces, are you? No matter. No matter how much you like the horses.

[James Holland]

But he is a. He is a consensus battalion commander in 1939 in Poland and also in France, where he serves in the 7th Panzer Division, which of course is under Rommel. So he's only a half colonel at this point. And then he spends lots of Time in the Eastern Front. So he's leading reconnaissance units in Barbarossa. He takes Command of the 7th Panzer Divisions, Panzer Grenadier Regiment 6. He's Colonel in 1942. Knights Cross for leadership he is given. Yes. He then eventually takes Command of the 7th Panzer Division, temporarily transferred to the Tunisian front. So he does see a bit of West End. Awarded the Oakleys for the Knight's Cross for his division successes. But really where he comes to fore is when he's given command of the Gross Deutschland Panzer Grenadier Division. And that's one of the most prestigious Panzer divisions in the Wehrmacht, even in the kind of sort of much depleted Wehrmacht of 1944. And he's given an army command as a General Leutnant. You know, it's ironic that Fritz Berlein is a General Leutnant and is commanding the Panzer led division at this point. Hasse von Manteuffel is given an army, so he's given the 5th Panzer Army. And he does much better than the SS Panzer army in the north.

[Murray]

Yes, he's regarded as having good finger touch, isn't it? That's what they say about him in the way that he handles his troops. He does do some patrolling, doesn't he? So he knows what he's getting himself into and make sure he knows what he's dealing with when he comes to attack the Americans rather than sort of saying, well we're all going to go, we're all going to just march across a great big open field and get cut down as in the northern sector. I think we're right. We could discount his eastern time. He's best in the west. He does best in the Ardennes of the crew that are involved in commanding the Ardennes. But then the Ardennes is after all, fool's errand.

[James Holland]

A massive shower from start to finish.

[Murray]

Yeah, exactly. Total wasteful shower of nonsense.

[James Holland]

So he, but he's, he's got a good reputation, I would say. He's also very, he's very helpful to the Americans in their foreign military studies project they do after the war. So there's lots of accounts from Manteufel. I've got them all, read them all. You know, he's clinical, he's a technician, he's very thorough. He's a, he's a detailed planner. He's just, is he kind of, you know, he's not a Guderian, you know, he's not even a balk. He's not visionary, he's not, he does, doesn't have the charisma of the kind of the great leaders, I would say.

[Murray]

No, but I mean, our last one before we take the break, though, this is, this is another one of these. He's a big name.

[James Holland]

He's a giant. He's. This guy is unbelievably good and he.

[Murray]

Is really, really good. He spends a lot of time on the Eastern Front. But we're going to have to talk about Volta. Model.

[James Holland]

General Feld Marschall. Walter Model.

[Murray]

Now, you'll be delighted to hear that the modals were middle class. Yep. His father was a music teacher.

[James Holland]

No, Von Insight.

[Murray]

They were from Prussia. They're from Prussia, ladies and gentlemen.

[James Holland]

They're from Saxony.

[Murray]

Yeah. Thing is, Jim, if you're one of those sort of Western politicians who literally believes in a Prussian military class that has dragged Europe into the abyss, you've got quite a lot to be working on here. Right, haven't you? If you're Winston Churchill, the Prussian menace must be finally extinguished. The Prussian flame of militarism. But these people do rather indicate that there is a military caste. Class of 1909. Joins the Imperial German army as a cadet in 1909.

[James Holland]

Yeah, 1909 is the daddy year.

[Murray]

Yep. First World War, Iron Cross, first and second class.

[James Holland]

Wounded several times. Gets a reputation for bravery and tactical skill. Stays in the right sphere.

[Murray]

Stays in, yep.

[James Holland]

And guess what? He distinguishes himself as a staffers officer and committed advocate of mechanized warfare.

[Murray]

He has a good interwar year. He knows the right people. He's close to Guderian and then he does well in Poland. Right?

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah. He's the staff officer. He's Chief of staff to 4th Army Corps. You know, it's quite a big deal. And you know, operational planning, movement coordination, logistics at core level really impresses with his meticulous staff work, willingness to visit the front, personally assess situations, talk to troops, see what's going on, you know, and he's energetic. You know, this is a guy who's, who's decisive, you know, he's, he's aggressive, you know, his staff work is second to none.

[Murray]

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because again, we're talking about best of the West. He has a good Barbarossa, doesn't he?

[James Holland]

Yes, very much so.

[Murray]

Basically in charge of 41 Panzer Corps.

[James Holland]

Well, by November. Yeah. He's a division start off with and then.

[Murray]

Yeah, but, but you know, he's doing really, he does really, really well in Barbarossa.

[James Holland]

Well, so much so he's got, he's in command of 9th army by, by January 1942. And that's Army Group Centre, which again is the kind of, you know, the main event for much of the time. So.

[Murray]

Yeah, but his thing, his thing though is he starts to have to fight defensive battles. And this is a sort of pattern of his career as it emerges, isn't it? There's a defensive battle in 1st Rev Cheviovska. Yeah, I think I've got that right. And he, he thinks it's fortified lines of strong points. You've got to defend in depth, you've got to trade space for time, counter attack at the right moment to restore the line, you know, very, very like a measured way of defending, you know, not, not actually a. Hold every position to the last round thing. Like a much more, a much more delivered and organic stuff. And he's very, very good at holding off the Soviets even when they've got superior numbers. And this is his reputation as it, as it develops, which means, you know, so in 43, he's holding the Rzhev Salient. There's this fantastically named operation, Operation Buffalo Bivigan, the buffalo movement, which is like a withdrawal from, you know, but, but without got, you know, a credible withdrawal.

[James Holland]

The buffalo's horns, but, but in reverse. So, so you, you pull back in the center, suck them in and you're, you're tritting your enemy as they're following up from the sides. It is good.

[Murray]

That is very, very good, Walter. And then, you know, this is involved in Kirsk and this is, this is how he develops this reputation as Hitler's fireman, right? He's the guy who's gonna come and solve the problem. So he's moved back to the west eventually by the end of 44, isn't he? Basically, August of 44 he's back in the Western Front having dealt with Bagration, having dealt with all sorts of disasters. And it's him who then is given Army Group B replaces von Kluge and it's his job to deal with getting back over the Seine. So post Falaise, what to do in the great sort of scramble out of France and Belgium. And of course Merdel, who stops Market Garden by realising that what you got to do is pump it full of troops again, not on this occasion, not worry about your own losses.

[James Holland]

And let's face it, you know, when it, when he moves, he moves with unspeakable speed. I mean, it is incredible how quickly, you know, railway lines held open, you know, no one else allowed to use them until these panzers have got there. And, you know, it's incredible. The scale of cooperation, coordination, and speed with which reinforcements are sent there. You know, particularly when you're thinking, this is September, this is only, well, a month after Normandy. It's very impressive. And I think, you know, one of the things to consider, for everyone to consider is when you're considering who is the best in the West. We know there's plenty of German generals who do well when they're winning, but who is doing well when they're losing. Yeah, yeah. And actually not many of them because they're losing, but you could not deny that Modal does a brilliant job when he's.

[Murray]

He does a heck of a job and, you know, doesn't like the Bulge battle plan much, but, you know, nods it through.

[James Holland]

When I was in Freiburg, I looked at all his papers, which are voluminous, and they're in the. They're in the. In the military archives in Germany. They're just fascinating. And I've got to say, he comes across as. As a much more humane person that I than I. Yeah, Really. I mean, he's actually devoted to his wife. Writes to her all the time. She writes letters, too, back to him. She keeps a diary. She's worrying about him all the time. He's, you know, he comes across as, you know, is strikingly impressive.

[Murray]

But he's loyal to the regime, though, isn't he? Islam's regime tied up in that. And that's why. Probably why, I mean, he kills himself for 21st of April, 1945 to avoid capture, because he's encircled in the rear pocket and won't surrender.

[James Holland]

Puts on all his best togs.

[Murray]

That's right. Goes off into a wood. You sent me a thing when. When you were looking at these documents. Yeah, yeah. Which is Colonel General Model 9th Army. A very strong, sometimes headstrong personality. His urge for activity is not always easy for subordinates to bear. But one thing is certain. A leader who is placed in the most critical position will never disappoint. Personally exemplary in bravery, ruthless towards himself. He demands the same from his troops, who, after initial grumbling, soon recognize who was leading them and who they have before them for higher command. A man of inestimable value when it comes to expressing a very particular vil in a decisive place. Performs very well. Signed von Kluge.

[James Holland]

That's early on in the war. That's in 1930, 42 or something, but. But, yeah, sort of impressive. Yeah, he's. He's quite a man. There was also a description of him killing himself by the witness to it.

[Murray]

It's just.

[James Holland]

It's actually quite moving, weirdly.

[Murray]

Okay, right, we're gonna take a break right now and what we have for you when we return. Well, do you like desert foxes?

[James Holland]

I'm sure you do the best foxes.

[Murray]

We will see you very, very shortly for the big one. Oh, Gold, it's Rommel. See you in a moment. This episode of we have ways of making you talk is brought to you by Ledger Battlefield Tours. Because some stories deserve more than just a page.

[James Holland]

Well, quite right. With Ledger, you can actually walk in the footsteps of heroes on expertly guided tours across the key battlefields of the Second World War.

[Murray]

Normandy, Arnhem, Monte Cassino, all the big ones. And you're not just wandering about with a pamphlet?

[James Holland]

No, these are fully escorted tours led by proper historians. People who know the campaigns, the regiments, the stories and where to get a decent pike near Pegasus Bridge, which, let's.

[Murray]

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[James Holland]

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[James Holland]

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[Murray]

The books, walk in the footsteps of [e-mail] WHWF.

[James Holland]

This episode is brought to you by Osprey Publishing. Even in the thick of a battle account, the sharpest details can vanish under fire.

[Murray]

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[James Holland]

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[Murray]

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[James Holland]

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[Murray]

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[James Holland]

Visit ospreypublishing.com or drop by their stand at the HQ tent.

[Murray]

Right, Jim, a quick one before we crack on. And this is 100 we have ways, isn't it? It?

[James Holland]

Yes, it is, yeah, yeah, yeah. The 1941 British denim smock has been remade properly by our little company, Avri Industries, isn't it?

[Murray]

Yeah, that's right. And the thing is with these as well, they're not inspired by these, actually. They're handmade in Greenwich and the original mill has done a new run, rewoven the cloth for this run. So this denim is made exactly as it was made in 1941.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And it is absolutely gorgeous, isn't it? It's such a lovely feel to it, honestly. I just absolutely love it.

[Murray]

Anyway, when I'm all mine, I thought, this is. My male modeling career had begun, basically. I looked so sharp in it. Yeah, simple.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a very, very, very strong look. Anyway, here's the important bit. We are opening Pre orders on 12 September. 250 jackets only, £349 each.

[Murray]

You pre order and you will get your smock. Simple as that. Could be any easier, could it, James?

[James Holland]

No, it absolutely couldn't. If you want one, just go to avriind.com that's a V R E I N-D dot com right now and register. And if you have registered, the information will be winging its way to your inbox.

[Murray]

There we go. 12th of September, 250 only. Avriind.com do not dither, do not delay. Welcome back to. We have ways of making you talk. With me are Murray and James Holland with the definitive breakdown of the German generals of the Second World War. It's Best of the West, Part 6 or Episode No. God, I can't do it. I can't do it. Jim, we've done six of these. This is part two of the sixth, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, something like that.

[James Holland]

6.2, 3.2. It doesn't matter.

[Murray]

Don't worry about it. Just don't worry about it, because here he is.

[James Holland]

And should we just reveal to everyone should we reveal to everyone what his full name is? Erwin Johannes Eugen Rommel.

[Murray]

Rommel.

[James Holland]

He's born in 1891 Wurttemberg.

[Murray]

He's not Prussian, which might mean he wins this.

[James Holland]

He's Swabian Schwabian.

[Murray]

Look, he's initially interested in engineering, but with all of these people, there's no one we've had, is there, who's like, been conscripted in the First World War and thought, actually, I like the army life. I'm staying in absolutely every one of these People is a soldier. They're into it for being a soldier. Right. That's fair to say. He joins in 1910. He enters the Royal Wurttemberg Cadet Corps. He's a lieutenant in the 124th infantry in 1912. Energy, athleticism, tat creativity. Yeah, all the things you need.

[James Holland]

And he fights all over in the First World War, you know, he's, he's Romanian, France, Western Front, Italian France wins the Paul a Marie, you know, the Blue Max equivalent of the vc. You know, no one else has that we've talked about. Leads a small force to capture 1500 Italian troops. Lon Garrone in the Alpine fighting, is a stormtrooper effectively. You know, he's developing stormtrooper tactics. This idea of. Is very much in line with Guderian. This idea that you have, you're forward leading, you just go for it. You don't worry about your flanks, you just smash through. This is very much what he's. What he's into. Remains in the post war Reichswehr famously teaches at lots of infantry schools and publishes a book called Infanteria Ger Greif, which is his infantry attacks in 1937. Does very well, read very widely both in Germany and abroad. And in 19 comes to Hitler's attention because of his. Because he's dynamic and charismatic and good looking and all those sort of things. And so from 1938 to 1939 he's commanding the Fuhrer Berglet Battalion, just Hitler's personal escort from the Wehrmacht, not the ss. And. And he gets on very well with Hitler, Sotoff. And initially he's very admiring of him, but of course, you know, this is Hitler before he's, you know, he hasn't revealed just how base he's become by this point.

[Murray]

Yeah, he commands Hitler's headquarters guard during the Polish campaign, so he doesn't do any front line combat, but he is part of that campaign. And then he's given 7th Panzer Division in February 1940 and has a spectacular.

[James Holland]

Run first across the Meuse. You know, his troops do get across at 11:30pm just north of Dinant, there's a weir and they get across there at 11:30pm roughly on the 12th of May. So, you know, supposed to be three days to Meusa Cross in four, he's three days and across in three and.

[Murray]

Then rounds up lots of French British troops, gets across the Somme, reaches the Channel coast ahead of Shed. Yeah.

[James Holland]

And he has this fantastic battle, the armored Battle of Dene, where he is largely responsible. It's also the fifth Panzer Division but he's a guy that kind of absolutely outsmarts the French 1st Armoured Division and he uses tanks not as to lure the much heavier French armour into a trap of anti tank guns.

[Murray]

Yeah. As a scare at Arras, the improvised.

[James Holland]

Counterattack using 88 millimeters in an anti tank role.

[Murray]

Yeah. He has a fantastic 1940St.

[James Holland]

Valerie destroys the 51st Harlem Division.

[Murray]

Exactly. Epitomizes the values of the new form of warfare. It's a poster boy for it in lots of ways, isn't he? And you know, it's a mark of how bright he is that he's come from the infantry, but he's figured out how to do this sort of stormtrooper thing essentially, but with, with mechanization, he's a clever operator and he gets the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross for his leadership. Then he goes to North Africa, February.

[James Holland]

1941, takes command of the embryonic Deutsche Afrika Korps. His instructions are to basically hold the line at Elag, don't, don't do anything else. But he tears off into Cyrenacre, captures o', Connor, Dick o' Connor and General Neame, goes all the way back across Cyrenacre and so become the sort of Benghazi stakes, as they're called by the British, this sort of toing and froing back and forth across the, across North Africa. And you know, there's no question that he's a highly charismatic, leading from the front kind of guy. And I would say that in the first part, you know, actually, you know, his greatest moment on one level is his extraordinary victory, the Gazala Line and the capture of Tobruk on 21 June 1942. But in actual fact there's problems of that because that is a bit like 1940. It is 50% the deficiencies of the British command and the British defensive system and just everything. And 50% his, his tactical brilliance and you know, they get caught out when they, in the pursuit. He thinks he's got this great opportunity and you know, they get hammered by the desert air force of the raf and he's reached his culmination point by the time they get to the Alamein line, which is after all is only 60 miles to the west of Alexandria. And it seems he's so close, but actually he's not. It's like a number of occasions, it's a bit like the kind of armored frost at Salerno. It looks like it's really, really close, but actually it might as well been a million miles away for all the good it was going to do it. And Alamein is a terrible experience. You know, this is where the Panzerroom in Africa gets destroyed. They get destroyed. Logistically, they get destroyed because Rommel has overreached himself. He's staying where he is on the Alamein Light at Hitler's assistant, to be fair. But, you know, he's overcooked it. And I think one of the problems is he doesn't really understand air power at this point, and he doesn't really understand the operational level, but he's still quite a young general and he learns. And. And actually, the experience of falling back along the North African coastline and through Libya, Egypt and Libya all the way to Tunisia again is huge in his development. He really understands now what it is like fighting the British, you know, what the advantage of air power is, what he can do and what he can't do. And actually, ironically, although he's perceived by Hitler and the OKW to being declined first part of 1943, this is actually one of his finest moments. I mean, his counter thrust in southern Tunisia is brilliantly executed. Executed, yeah. And had he got his way, I mean, his big problem then is there is no Army Group command at this point. So he is on a level with von Arnim, who is the Fifth Panzer army commander. And von Arman goes, no, I'm not going to do what you suggest. And he's got no recourse. And he's also got to answer to the Commando Supremo and the Italians, and he's got to answer to Kesselring and he's got to answer to the AKW and the chain is too heavy, it's too top heavy. He is the best place to judge what should and shouldn't be doing, and he's not allowed that freedom. But all his suggestions are spot on. And I think if they ever had a chance to completely set back the Allies plan that he comes up with for this separation, it is stretching what can be achieved. But rather like the Japanese, his intention is to live off the spoils of overrunning the Allies. And there is no question that they are very, very badly spooked. And that had he got his way with his plan, rather than von Ahnim rebutting it, he might well have achieved quite a lot. And I think he's pretty impressive at this point.

[Murray]

But what that shows, though, is that the German command system is a nonsense. There's no one in charge. If there is anyone in charge, there's someone who doesn't know they're doing in the form of the Fuhrer. It's. It's just everything's a mess and that. You can have brilliant people and you can have bad people and, you know, the Allies. The Allies have enough slow coaches and enough sort of mercurial people, but there's. There's still someone in charge.

[James Holland]

Yeah, there is. Well, there is, but. But this is at the same time, at the same time that the Allies are coming to the conclusion what you need is a supreme ally commander and you need an Army Group commander.

[Murray]

The.

[James Holland]

The Axis are late on this and they do come up with an Army Group commander, but only once. There's too late. Once the counter thrust into Tunisia, which is designed by Rommel to go into Algeria, once that comes a cropper because of the dispersal of his forces and because he's not concentrating enough. Von Arnim won't play ball. They then make him the Army Group Commander, but it's too late.

[Murray]

This is the thing, though. What he's then next known for is his role in preparing the defence of Normandy. You know, building the west wall just quickly.

[James Holland]

He's Army Group B in northern Italy and he's the one who says, this is where we should stand. We should do, you know, we should hold the line on the Pisa Rimini line up in the north, where our lines are, you know, because I've experienced defeat at the hands the Allies and I understand their air power and this is how we can do it. And this would be the best way. And he's right. He's absolutely right on this.

[Murray]

Yeah, but he's also saying we should do things my way rather than anyone else's way.

[James Holland]

But I say the other way is wrong. I mean, I think he's right on this.

[Murray]

But there's also a complete failure in the German. There is no collegiate effort here at all. By the time he's getting things ready in Normandy, German command is so collapsed and malfunctioning and sclerotic and you know that he can be. He can be as right as he likes. That the fact that you will end up with this argument. Do you fight on the. Do you. Do you push the Allies back to the sea immediately? Do you have an armoured reserve? In a way, those arguments are purely academic, because what's coming. The Allies have considered essentially all possibilities and their invasion is built for both possibilities. It's built for the Germans trying to defend the shore because of the naval gunnery. They've got their disposal. And it's built for if the Germans withdraw to a proper defensive line, because that's what they want them to do so they can build up their own forces.

[James Holland]

Totally agree. I totally. I agreed. But the plan that he's suggesting and the focus on the Normandy area, which I think makes most sense, he's right, you know, and he is the one person who's looking at it logically rather than trying to sort of COVID every which way. And, you know, he's trying to be much more focused and much more clinical. And he's right. I mean, you know, I flip flopped with Rommel. You know, I thought he was really good. Then I thought he wasn't quite so good. I've dissed him a little bit. I've now come around to the view that actually he was really, really good. I think. I think, funny enough, I think where he was less good as an army commander was in his days of glory, because I think it went to his head and he got ahead of himself.

[Murray]

He's using excellent intelligence at that point, and he.

[James Holland]

Excellent intelligence. But I think, you know, what he does in Tunisia is really impressive. His plans for Italy are the best plans and are ignored. And his plans for Normandy and defense of Normandy in the Normandy area either side of the Seine are the correct plans and also ignored. So I think he was pretty good. And, you know, he has spent more time fighting troops in the west than any other at senior command. And he is an army group commander.

[Murray]

If we're talking best in the west, he's the most experienced in the West.

[James Holland]

Yeah. But he's also really good. In 1940, he has incredible successes in North Africa, albeit over overstretches himself. I mean, that's his weak point. You know, he's really good in Tunisia, really good in Italy, and I think he's pretty impressive in Normandy. It's just that he can't do what he wants to do. But had he been given, you know, the point is his vision, his leadership, his concept are the right ones. It's just that he's not allowed to enact them.

[Murray]

And even then, when, if there were a change of heart at the top, it's too late because he's injured in July, 17th of July, strafed by a load aircraft.

[James Holland]

And effectively they're murdered by the regime, you know.

[Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And he doesn't have to put his compromise himself on the Eastern front. So, you know, he is a decent, fair man. I mean, you know, there's no getting away from that.

[Murray]

Okay, our next general. Now we've done Rommel. I mean, what is there to say about Fridol and Fonsengo and Dettoling him.

[James Holland]

Well, let's, let's rattle through him because we talked about him a lot when we were talking about Italy. You know, he's, he again, he's always liked Massively and got a very good press and considered a good German. He's, he's very Catholic, he hates Hitler, all this sort of stuff. He's a fight. He's a Rhodes scholar, speaks English, he's a deep thinker all the rest of it. He's actually, actually from Baden near the Swiss border. He's aristocratic, very clever, very intellectual, studying law and languages, fluent in English and French and Italian, all the rest of it does. Has his First World War service, gets his Iron Cross first class, remains in the Reichswehr, blah, blah, blah, cavalry officer. But he does reject the ideology of Nazism and goes up the chain despite this. I mean, he never makes any bones about it that he's not. But he still fights for Germany, you know, he still fights for the 3rd Cavalry Regiment, Invasion of Poland, captures Cherbourg just ahead of erwin Rommel in 1940. He does lots of staff jobs because of his languages and all the rest of it because of his sort of, you know, charm and all the rest of it. So he ends up spending a lot of time in Italy. He is the kind of sort of chief liaison officer to the Italians in Sicily and then takes command of 14th Panzer Corps after, after Huber gets moved on. And obviously he's a big player in the, in the casino back battles. He does do his level best to kind of keep Cassino out of the firing line. It's not his decision to put the Gustav line where it is. He's a good bloke. Let's not get away from it. But he remains in Italy for the rest of the war.

[Murray]

So, I mean, the thing is, and I think one of the things that marks the end of his war is the fact that he's under suspicion for the July plot.

[James Holland]

He is, but he stays, he stays in. He stays in Italy.

[Murray]

Yeah, but he's not sufficiently enthusiastic as a Nazi. And I think that's why you're able, why you're able to say he's a great bloke. Right. I mean, this is the problem.

[James Holland]

He's not great bro. He's a good bloke. Yeah. So he does very well, you know, you know, in a defensive role. He does as well as can be possibly expected. He's a clear tactician. He, you know, in all his writings and stuff, it's very clear that he has an appreciation of what's going on. He's very against staying at the Gustav Line. He's very against, you know, wholesale slaughter of all his troops. You know, he's a very, very, very competent commander. You know, he's right up there. Is he the best in the West? No, he's only a corps commander. He's not an army commander. He's certainly not an army group commander.

[Murray]

But is he a Kurt Student? Our final candidate for Best of the West, General Oberst Kurt Student. Someone who went to the Prussian main Cadet Lichterfelder.

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Murray]

Which may amaze some of you. He joins the army in 1911. Prussian Infantry Regiment. The 2nd Prussian Infantry Regiment. He has a First World War that involves the Iron Cross first class and.

[James Holland]

Second class and the second class.

[Murray]

And he's a pilot though, so it's quite interesting. He's a fighter pilot and a recce pilot. He's done infantry fighting and then he's been an airman, which I think is why probably, you know, he's one of those people. He's forward thinking. He's involved in the clandestine aviation training between the wars in the tiny non existent air force is in. Then goes into the Luftwaffe in 1934 and is fascinated by what the Soviets, the Italians are doing with parachutes. And he becomes a massive, massive advocate for using parachutes and gliders as a strategic offensive weapon. And certainly, I mean the thing is, is the glider, when you think about it. If all you've got to do is cross a border at dawn and you're coming from the east, the glider is the most ideal weapon imaginable, isn't it? You're coming out of the rising sun. You've got no distance to travel. You haven't got to cross the Channel or any of that nonsense like. Or a Chun of the Med. It's a brilliant way of landing people. He's a General Mayo in 38 and then he's involved in the. Germany's first dedicated airborne division. He forms the 7th Air Division. They're not doing anything in Poland, but they're getting ready. They're training. So pretty squiffy, iffy stuff in Norway. Some disasters at Norway, but they do also succeed.

[James Holland]

Donbass, for example.

[Murray]

Exactly. But they succeed. They seize airfields and then he's involved in. I mean they're headline grabbing, but they're pretty disastrous. Again, airborne operations in Rotterdam where they really. They're the. The crap kicked out of them. He's shot at them.

[James Holland]

Yes, but they're very much a symbol of the victory in the west and the blitzkrieg in the west and. Yeah, and everyone else is so dazzled by them that they adopt it too. British, Americans, all the rest of it. But the weird thing is he's actually accidentally shot in the head by a German soldier during the Dutch campaign. So he's out of the action by kind of 14th of May.

[Murray]

Yeah. And then, I mean his high water mark is Crete. So he's given command of 11 Fleeker Corps as a General Leutnant. And this is Operation Mercury, the airborne invasion to Crete. You know, this is an extraordinary operation which is sort of the British, it's for the British to lose, although the Germans have air superiority, which is a big, a big factor in it and a big reason why they're actually able to press their advantage. In the end it's hugely costly. 4000 Falchion Jager are killed although they succeed in seizing Crete. Holding Crete as a sort of. Then what for the Germans?

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Murray]

Can't do anything with it. And this means that Falchium Jager, from now on their ground troops and their mobile reserve, basically they're being brought in as and when they came can. And I mean his last hurrah really is Market Garden where again his men pay a big, big, big part in defeating the airborne effort. And he winds up captured by the British after surrendering in the, captured by.

[James Holland]

The, by the Americans.

[Murray]

But he's then, then picked up by the British and placed on trial for war crimes.

[James Holland]

Yeah, but the thing about him, okay, so he also, he also liberates Mussolini from, from the Gran Sasso in the Bruzzi Mountains in the southern part of the Apennines. The other thing is he's in the west whole time. I mean he's a western based commander. So if you're talking about the best in the west, I mean he's right up there. Falchion Jager, the poster boys of the Wehrmacht, they're all German, they're all highly motivated. You know, there's no one who would deny that the falchion Jager are in terms of infantry, the best troops. Now you know, we've had debates about what that means. You know, they weren't that good, but they are highly motivated. Seen as elite troops, all the rest of it. And they're definitely the ones that cause the Allies the most headache in terms of determined defense and all the rest of it. You know that, that guy that you interviewed all those years ago, worst day.

[Murray]

Of his life has been Capt.

[James Holland]

I think he deserves quite a lot of credit for that.

[Murray]

Yeah, me too. And in fact and for everything he sets in motion on the other side is the truth. When the enemy copies you quite so comprehensively, you must be doing something important. So that's Kurt Student.

[James Holland]

And that's our 14.

[Murray]

14, our dirty dozen plus two of German generals. Best of the west rogues gallery of. It's hard to judge them, isn't it? Because after all, they lose. Yeah, you know, there's that to consider. I mean, I think what's been good about this Jim though is to actually step back and look some of these people and, and it means you're telling the history of the war as much as of these people's lives of the sort of progression that the high watermark for Germany and then the lessons learned and the lessons demonstrated being learned by the Allies really and then the high water mark for the Allies is the, you know, once the stuff arrives and things get much more difficult for the Germans. I think it's been, been really, really interesting this and I think it's also, I think everyone is going to thank us for having done this one way or another for having finally put to rest who the best in the west is.

[James Holland]

Well before we get to the, the we have ways fest where if you want to continue with this debate, that's where you're going to need to be. Who is your top three for, for the Axis generals? Who are you going to go for?

[Murray]

Cripes. Well, you made a very strong case, you see. You made a very strong case for Rommel. But I think much of what he gets up to in the desert is actually us being a bit rubbish and him reading, him reading our emails. So I, I just, I just don't.

[James Holland]

Jude Barnaby, he does really well in 1940 and then he does. And I think he's really good after that. I think that's the point.

[Murray]

All right, okay. I think you've got to say Guderian. Let's just, let's just, if we can possibly for one moment try. Although of course it's impossible to park how political some of these people were because after all Rommel bent with the wind. He was a trimmer on that particular topic, wasn't he? Yeah, I think Guderian, Guderian Chase. It changes although those we've said he adapts and builds on Prussian tradition of warfare. He changes and rewrites the.

[James Holland]

He's responsible for the strategic earthquake changes the world. You know, he, he is the pioneer of armor tactics. Everyone's copying him for the rest of the war. You know, Patton is copying Guderian.

[Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

Lots of radios, lots of, you know, all arms combat.

[Murray]

You know, Weightman would tell you at West Point there were people who would refer to their tanks as Panzers and were basically obsessed with 1940 Blitzkrieg. It's got to be Guderian.

[James Holland]

Although there are massive kind of crosses for his performance later on in the war.

[Murray]

So Guderian, I think Student, just because I like the air airborne thing and because he's a villain for defeating market garden Modal.

[James Holland]

Yeah, okay, well, I am definitely putting Rommel in. I'm definitely putting modal in. For me, it's a toss up between Guderian and Student, but I think it has to be Guderian. So I'm going Rommel modal thing. And I've got to say, I mean, I think, I really think outstanding one is modal.

[Murray]

Yeah, I think so. Anyway, thanks everybody for listening. We know that you think something, but we don't know what it is. So get over to the Patreon please, and let us know. Vote. Take up the cudgels on social media if that's what you need to do. And we see you very soon with more. We have ways to make you talk, though not always quite so argument settling as this.

[James Holland]

No. Well, come back and join us for our epic Battle of Britain series. But also if you want to see how this all plays out, please do come to we have ways fest. 12th to 14th September. It's coming up. Tons of stuff to see. Vast amounts of hardware, some really rare hardware. There's warbirds flying over, there's all sorts. It's going to be absolutely fantastic. There's an insta review. You see all your favorite historians and guests of the show. Much rare read. Besides, if this is your bag, then that is the festival for you and you can do it. You can geek out to your heart's content.

[Murray]

We have wastefest.co.uk, we'll see you there. Cheerio.

[James Holland]

Cheerio. Chassis. Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just four $5 only at McDonald's for a limited time. Prices and participation may vary.

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[Anthony Scaramucci]

Offer hey, it's Anthony Scaramucci from the Rest is Politics US. If you're looking for something to play next, Katty K and I just launched a new miniseries about Ronald Reagan. We're digging into the real Reagan story, the rise, the drama, how his world has been turned upside down in the.

[Narrator]

Age of we trace his rise from Hollywood to the White House, from his role in ending the Cold War to reviving the economy. And we also confront those scandals, Iran Contra, his assassination attempt, and his failure around the AIDS epidemic.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

Just search the rest Politics Us Wherever you get your podcast, here's a clip from the series.

[Murray]

Ronald Reagan knew how to go big and go bold.

[WhatsApp Advertiser]

He truly was the great communicator.

[James Holland]

Together we're going to to do what has to be done. He regrounded the GOP and conservative principles.

[Narrator]

Free markets, small government, and an unshakable faith in American exceptionalism.

[James Holland]

Mr. Gorbachev teared down this wall.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

Ronald Reagan shook the country.

[James Holland]

People keep looking to government for the answer, and government's the problem. President Reagan was shot in the chest by a gunman outside the Washington Hotel. We did not trade weapons or anything else for hostages.

[WhatsApp Advertiser]

Uncomfortable as it is to admit, the 40th president inadvertently prepared the ground for the 45th.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

It's not Reagan's party anymore.

[James Holland]

Donald Trump destroyed Ronald Reagan.

[Murray]

I thought he was great. His style, his attitude. But not great on trade. Will we be the party of conservatism or will we follow the siren song of populism?

[James Holland]

Only one man has the proven experience. Together we'll make America great again. Thank you very much.

[Narrator]

We hope you enjoyed that clip. To hear the full series, just search the Rest Is Politics US.