The Battle Of Taranto Ends: Stringbags (Episode 3)

Summary

Podcast Summary: WW2 Pod – We Have Ways of Making You Talk

Episode: The Battle Of Taranto Ends: Stringbags (Episode 3)

Hosts: Al Murray (comedian), James Holland (historian)
Date: December 16, 2025

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Main Theme / Episode Overview

This episode concludes the story of the legendary Fleet Air Arm raid on the Italian fleet at Taranto in 1940. Al and James dig deep into the second wave of the Swordfish attack—nicknamed "Stringbags" for their versatile biplane design—shedding light on the perilous mission, tactical innovations, individual acts of bravery, and the broader naval and strategic repercussions. The tone is a blend of historical analysis, personal storytelling, and trademark banter, as they explore why Taranto mattered and how this daring night attack paved the way for modern naval air power.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recap and Setting the Stage

• Swordfish and Pocket Battleships: The hosts begin with reflections on the surprising capability of the open-cockpit Swordfish biplane, both technologically and for morale.
• James Holland (05:20):
  "It's an open cockpit biplane. I mean just absolutely amazing, the bracing wires and struts. It's a reminder, isn't it, that they're not in Spitfires, they're not in Mosquitoes..."
• Importance of battleships as strategic capital ships and the shift towards air power in WWII naval operations.

2. First Wave’s Courage and Ordeals (03:29–12:48)

• The first wave's harrowing experience: flak-filled skies, deadly odds, and remarkable airmanship.
• Memorable Quote by Charles Lamb:
  "I'm a bit worried we may be the only survivors. I should be very surprised if we're not..." (09:41)
• Observers’ plight versus pilots’: Navigating in the dark, fear of the worst, and the challenges of returning to carriers at night.

3. Second Wave Preparation and Launch (12:48–18:58)

• Introduction to key figures: Lieutenant John Wellem and the standard of Swordfish crews.
• Unique problems: collision on carrier deck, delayed launches, and the desperate attempts of crew (notably “Going”) to join the attack despite damage and odds.
• James Holland (17:34):
  "Anyone who's that keen going on a really dangerous mission is just destined not to make it."

4. Second Wave Attack Execution (19:11–32:36)

• Tactical Accounts: Planes approaching at varying angles to confuse gunners, harrowing low-level torpedo runs, near-misses, and “needle-in-a-haystack” carrier recoveries.
• Flak intensity:
  "He dives steeply through an inferno of flak...The Italians are firing into a box barrage."
• Al Murray (22:33):
  "His undercarriage hit the water... amazing that he didn't just flip over, isn't it?"
• Heavy losses and escapes: Some aircraft shot down, most (even the delayed Clifford and Going) making it back against expectations.

5. Outcomes: Damage Assessment and Strategic Impact (32:36–44:28)

• James Holland (34:11):
  "Ammunition expenditure is extraordinary…12,800 rounds fired."
• Ships hit, Italian casualties, and “marvel of understatement” in the British after-action signallings:
• Al Murray (33:18):
  "Illustrious maneuver well executed."
• Discussion on why a follow-up raid was cancelled due to crew exhaustion and poor weather.
• Italian repairs: Ships run aground to prevent sinking, eventual partial repairs, but only one returns to service.
• Allied morale: Churchill, The Times, and King George VI amplify the event's significance for the wartime public.

6. Long-Term Significance and Lessons Learned (44:28–End)

• Influence on future naval warfare: Japanese study of Taranto ahead of Pearl Harbor (mass and surprise as takeaways).
• Limits of the strike: Absence of a fully decisive blow (no magazines destroyed), no immediate “fleet-in-being” elimination, but psychological and tactical effects were profound.
• Italian Navy’s psychological blow, subsequent caution, and parallels to other naval episodes (the Belgrano, Cape Matapan).
• Missed opportunities: Room for greater exploitation by the Allies post-raid, but operational novelty made them cautious.
• Legacy: Enduring place of "Taranto Night" in Fleet Air Arm tradition and the mythos surrounding the Swordfish.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On How Daring the Pilots Were (05:42):

  • Al Murray: "Some buggers got to get in an open cockpit biplane and fly into a horseshoe shaped harbor and drop torpedoes with a box barraged to guide him by."

• On the Luck and Casualty Rate (33:27):

  • James Holland: "That’s a light kind of casualty, this, really, though, isn't it?"

• On Dramatic Scenes In-Flight (28:38):

  • Al Murray: "He narrowly misses the northernmost balloon in the eastern barrier before attacking the Vittorio Veneto from the east."

• On British Understatement (33:18):

  • James Holland: "Illustrious maneuver well executed…It's a marvel of understatement, isn't it?"

• Churchill’s Take (43:42):

  • Al Murray: "Winston Churchill says the result affects decisively the balance of naval power...and carries with it reactions upon a naval situation in every quarter of the globe."

• Italian Reaction (45:06):

  • James Holland (as Mussolini’s son-in-law Ciano): "These ships will remain out of the fight for many months. I thought I would find the duchy downhearted. Instead, he [Mussolini] took the blow quite well and does not at the moment seem to have fully realized its gravity."

• Fleet Air Arm's Place in History (52:52):

  • Al Murray: "This has got absolutely everything you could possibly want in it. It's got pluck, it's got grit, it's got an unlikely hero in the form of the swordfish..."

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:29 – Opening dramatic account from John Wellem; sensory detail of flak and chaos over Taranto.
• 05:20–09:41 – Discussion of danger, first wave, and the psychology of Swordfish crews.
• 12:48–18:58 – Prep for the second wave; deck chaos, personal stories of the pilots.
• 19:11–24:33 – Second wave’s harrowing low-level approaches, torpedo attacks, losses (Bailey and Slaughter).
• 27:26–32:36 – Near-misses, evasive flying, and the concluding strikes of the night.
• 33:18–34:40 – Aftermath: Casualties, Italian defensive fire, and British signal of success.
• 38:09–40:14 – Enemy damage assessment; fate of the Italian battleships.
• 44:00–45:06 – National reaction: The Times, Churchill and King George VI.
• 47:03–49:24 – Italian Navy’s status post-Taranto, and debate on the true decisiveness of the strike.
• 50:13–52:06 – Japanese lessons, parallels to Pearl Harbor, Allied missed opportunities, and the fleeting nature of the British air-naval advantage.
• 52:49–End – Final thoughts, legacy, and tease for the next episode (Stringbags on the Arctic convoys).

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Tone & Style

The episode mixes rigorous historical research with humor, awe, and admiration for the men involved. Al Murray brings a comedic yet reverent edge, and James Holland delivers both dramatic reading of first-person accounts and clear, detailed analysis. The mood is respectful but lively, often punctuated by British understatement or self-deprecating wit—particularly when reflecting on luck, risk, and the stupefying odds faced by WWII aircrews.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• The Battle of Taranto marked a pivotal shift in naval warfare, heralding the age of the aircraft carrier.
• Extraordinary courage, innovation, and luck defined the Fleet Air Arm's success—and its cost, though lighter than feared, was never trivial.
• The psychological blow and strategic precedent set at Taranto resonated worldwide, directly influencing later actions such as Pearl Harbor.
• Despite its limitations as a “decisive” victory, Taranto proved the value of air power at sea, set new doctrines, and cemented the Swordfish and its crews in British military legend.

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Next Episode Teaser:
More “Stringbag” action awaits—with the Fleet Air Arm in the Arctic!

Transcript

[Al Murray]

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[Al Murray]

Merry Christmas everyone. Ah, the little Drummer boy. Everyone's favorite at this seasonal time of year. It's me, Al Murray, co host of the WW2 pod. We have ways of making you talk. The world's finest Second World War podcast.

[James Holland]

And you know what?

[Al Murray]

At this time of year, it's important to think about what's important, isn't it? Spending time with loved ones, looking to the year ahead, enjoying the finer things in life. And of course, the most important thing of all, the question that irks so many at this seasonal time of season. What exactly is a Pocket Battleship? Now, we all like to say, of course, that it's just the thought that counts when it comes to gift giving. But actually, why not have a good thought, right? It can't just be a thought. Go for a thoughtful gift. And the best gift, of course, is a subscription to WW2 pod. We have ways of making you talk With a subscription to we have ways you Know what? Your loved one, Your loved one, or even someone you only like a bit could enjoy. Ad free listening, priority access to new series and ticketed events, regular live streams, a weekly newsletter with book and model discounts. Oh, yes, you know, the kind you glue together. And bonus episodes. In fact, why not give yourself a membership this year? Go on, you deserve it. Santa says you should. Ho, ho, ho. So head over to we havewayspod.co.uk and you too can present the very best gift that they'll ever get this year or any other year. Even as you remember on the way to dinner that you forgot to get them anything. Yeah, exactly. You can do this just like that. Go to the website. We have wastepod.co.uk and put that in your Christmas string bag. Merry Christmas and a happy New Year. Meine Lieblingen. Auf Wiedersen.

[James Holland]

Untrussy Truss. I followed the leader as he lost height. Suddenly there was a burst of light to the eastward as the first flare ignited, followed by others until they hung in the sky like a necklace of sparkling diamonds. Ahead, there seemed to be a partial hole in the flak, just where I wanted to be. The slipstream was screaming through the struts and bracing wires and past my ears. My nose was filled with the stench of cordite. There was Tracer above us, Tracer below us, and Tracer seemingly passing between the wings. There was a tremendous jar. The whole aircraft juddered and the stick flew out of my hand. We were completely out of control. It was no time for finesse. I applied brute force and ignorance. It moved most of its travel to the right, but only partially to the left. Buildings, cranes and factory chimneys were streaking past below us. Then we shot over the eastern shore of the harbour and were level over a black mirror speckled with the reflection of flowers, flames and bursting shells. A quick glance round to my right and slightly behind me was a massive black object covering most of the horizon. A battleship. And that was Lieutenant John Wellem in his account with Naval Wings. And we'll be coming back to John Wellem later as he arrives in Toronto.

[Al Murray]

In fact, we'll join John as he as he loiters, waiting for the operation to start. Welcome to we have ways to make you talk. Part two of the raid on Taranto. If anyone is of a nervous disposition, right, if you don't like cliffhangers, if you don't like relentless tension, then you've come to the wrong podcast, I'm afraid.

[James Holland]

But. But a reminder in that opening quote, I think of. Of what they're flying, you know, it's an open cockpit biplane. Yeah. I mean just absolutely amazing, the bracing wires and struts. It's a reminder, isn't it, that they're not in Spitfires, they're not in Mosquitoes or even Beaufighters, they're in Fairey Swordfish.

[Al Murray]

But what they're in, Jim though, is the right plane for the job. As we saw in the last episode, the first wave have completed their attack, their strike on Taranto and only, only one of the aircraft has been shot down, flown by Lieutenant Commander K.N. williamson, who's the, who's the commanding officer 815 naval escortion with his observer Blood Scarlet, whose banter is of an extremely high quality. And they have struck two battleships, the Littorio. And in our introductory episode to this story we talked about how the fleet Air arm are sent to strike the Richelieu in Dakar, which was built in response to the Littorio class of Italian battleship by the French navy. So what we're talking about here is absolutely top line ships. And the thing to remember as well, so much of the interwar to and fro treaty to and frozen that goes on is about battleships, battleships, their war winning potential. What they can do to naval traffic and trade is at the forefront of everyone's minds. And while the Royal Navy has come to this idea that actually the next war, this war is going to be one of increment and attrition and chipping away and buttoning down the opposition rather than great big climactic battles. If you can do what Nelson did and strike the enemy's fleet in harbour.

[James Holland]

As he did at Copenhagen and at.

[Al Murray]

The Nile, that's the place to get the other guy. That's exactly what they're doing here. Rather than the climactic battle, the strike on the fleet and you knock the other guy out before he can even turn up. And that's what this is all about.

[James Holland]

Equally, they're doing this with the use of aircraft carriers which are about to use up the battleship as the premium capital ship of any navy.

[Al Murray]

Well, just as the Germans demonstrated in, in May 1940 with the use of tactical air, it's air that is going to open up the way this war is fought and won simply. Simply that who commands the air controls the, not just the airspace, the land space, but the sea space, what people would call a battle space. Now you know the thing that they've done to enable the Taranto strike to be successful because after all the Italians have shut down their sig in the British aren't, aren't inside the Italian naval cipher at all. So they're relying on photo reconnaissance and they're relying on their own fighter cover to chase away spotter planes. And they've been incredibly successful in that, which is why this carrier fleet, this carrier force, at the end of the great big diversionary operation that also includes actual operations, this, you know, ABC's genius, he's kept the med running, as it should be, and slipped into that, this carrier force, into Mike Bravo 8.

[James Holland]

Yes, the deception plan for Taranto is fascinating, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

I mean, it's really clever and complicated and there's lots of moving parts, there's many levers and any one of them could go wrong, but it doesn't.

[Al Murray]

So to the point, as we said in the last episode, an Italian naval officer after the war said, if the British hadn't explained to us after the war that what they're up to, we would never, ever have gleaned it. We'd have never worked it out. So, I mean, it's incredible. Here's the thing, and I think this is a thing that sometimes we circle back around to on the podcast is, yes, the Allies here are being. Or the Royal Navy here is being super organized. They're being dominant and all that, but still, some buggers got to get in an open cockpit biplane and fly into a horseshoe shaped harbor and drop torpedoes with a box barraged to guide him by. You know, Williamson uses the box barrage flak as his navigation beacon. He goes, oh, well, there's the, there's the reception over there. You know, when the Japanese strike Pearl harbor, they do do it by surprise. There isn't a night sky lit up by flak for them to steer towards. And you think of these crews strapped into that swordfish droning along at 80 knots like, dear God.

[James Holland]

Anyway, anyway, it's absolutely unbelievable. We've done the first raid. This is, this is the culmination of the first raid. And yeah, on his way back, Charles Lamb, who we met in the last episode, didn't we? He was, he was basically just observing. That was his job. He said, I had a, I'd never had a less dangerous, dangerous mission. You're still over. Yeah, I mean, it sounded pretty dangerous to me anyway, but it's on his way back because he'd been dropping flares, he says to his observer, grieve. He goes, I'm a bit worried we may be the only survivors. I should be very surprised if we're not. I doubt whether any of the torpedo or bombing pilots got away with that. And I saw nothing of Kiggle's aircraft after he dropped that last flare on the far side of the harbour. I'm afraid you're right, said Greave, but we can't do anything about it now. They're in the Stokes Society, aren't they?

[Al Murray]

And this is the first time they've spoken. Well, just before the raid, when he says, oh look, they're expecting us, he says something like that, oh, jolly good. Well, and then they don't speak until this point and they have a discussion about what on earth are the top brass going to say now? Because everyone's been killed except us and what do we do now? I mean, it's just remarkable.

[James Holland]

I love that reply from Greave. Oh, well, you're probably right, but we can't do anything about it now. Best foot forward.

[Al Murray]

80 knots. It's not like he can step on it. It's not like Greave can say, well I come on then, open the throttle and we'll be home in 10 minutes.

[James Holland]

None of that.

[Al Murray]

They fly on through their night and Greave of course has to navigate because the observer is the navigator as well in the Fleet Air.

[James Holland]

And they've got to go back to Y, not X.

[Al Murray]

Yes, they've got to. Exactly. They've got to go back to position Y. It's been incredibly nerve wracking and Lamb's been throwing the plane around evasively and he says in his memoir, this is yet another one of those times where I was glad to be the pilot and not the observer because I at least knew what was coming at us. At least knew what I was. What was going to happen next. Whereas the observers in the back just being thrown about. Right? Well, yeah.

[James Holland]

I mean, clearly being a pilot in this circumstances is vastly superior to being an observer.

[Al Murray]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[James Holland]

I mean, evil's not great, is it, right now?

[Al Murray]

No, but it's a really short straw being the observer. But Greave is now navigating, taking star shots, looking for Cephallonia on. Cephallonia's on their starboard wing as they leave.

[James Holland]

That's their way mark, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Kind of, yeah. So he's looking. They're looking for the dark shape of the island as they return, or near enough. Because of course lust is steamed onto somewhere else. This is needle in a haystack stuff. And then they've got to. They've got to put down, land on, as they call it, successfully on the aircraft carrier. I mean, this is needle in A haystack stuff, isn't it, Jim? You know, it really is.

[James Holland]

And just a reminder, it's at night, people, and they've got a new location to find in the middle of the Mediterranean, which, trust me, when you're flying over it is a pretty big place.

[Al Murray]

Everything that's asked of these pilots is truly extraordinary. And the fact that they think, oh, well, everyone else has been killed, they will deal with that when they get back to the aircraft carrier. I mean, this is extraordinary stuff.

[James Holland]

Yeah, we've got other things to think about right now. Let's not blot our minds with morbid thoughts.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. But there's the second wave, of course.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

That's just the first wave and the fleet arms experiences. The second wave usually gets the short end of the stick because the enemy have woken. Up. Now, of course, one of the interesting things about Taranto is the fact that the Italians have been alerted to the presence of naval aircraft by their listening devices because the Sunderland is going around looking for Italian ships to make sure that no one's at sea to bugger up the attack. So the Italians were alerted in the first place and now they're really on super alert. So flying with the second wave, which is about to depart, well, which is by the. Obviously by the time Lamb and Grieve are flying back, the second wave is already. But, but let's not, let's not, let's, let's, let's go back to just before the second wave leave. Because this is the problem with these overlapping events, of course, in, in the telling is that John Wellem, who we met right then at the start with his account, now he's with the second wave and he's an ex, as experienced as a Fleet Air Arm Swordfish pilot as anybody. He's, he's part of the strike flown from Eagle in the attack on Sidi Barani on 22 August. It's a wildly successful torpedo strike on Italian ships that sunk four vessels with three torpedoes because one of the ship's magazines had gone up and it was Wellem's torpedo that strikes the depot ship, the magazine that goes up. They destroyed two subs, one destroyer and a depot ship.

[James Holland]

That's a good night at the office, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

It's pretty good. And no one believes it. No one believes it. They're like, that can't be true. And then, and then, you know, the, the losses, the losses confirm it and the number of torpedoes loose and all this sort of thing. So he has his ankle nicked by A bullet in that attack. Right. So that's how up close you've got to get to do this stuff. And he's come over from Eagle because, after all, Eagle suffers this fuel problem because she's been damaged in previous fighting and has a fuel issue that they can't fix in time. So when he gets to Illustrious, legal, of course, is. Is one of these ships in the First World War. That is. That's a converted ship. It's not a purpose built aircraft carrier. Yes, Hermes is the purpose built aircraft carrier from the First World War. And he's absolutely boggled by Illustrious.

[James Holland]

What, because it's so state of the art.

[Al Murray]

State of the art. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you say? What does he say, Jim?

[James Holland]

He says we were in a different world. Illustrious was huge and full of equipment that we'd never seen or even heard of. We also appreciated the atmosphere on board. Every member of the ship's company was dedicated to the operation of the aircraft and proud and enthusiastic about her. I mean, yeah, I guess it is, because this has got armored deck, hasn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, it's the armored deck. The box. Yeah. This I think is really interesting is that the Royal Navy, which had been skeptical about the application of air power, is now absolutely, totally into it. And obviously these are air power advocates who want to make this work, who want to prove their worth and to show that they're where the money should be being spent, where the, where the, you know, should be the operational center of gravity of the Royal Navy. And, you know, as we said earlier in the episode, this is how it pans out as the war runs. So before the attack, he'd watch planes being prepared, torpedoes, 250 pound bombs, four and a half inch fares being loaded up. The bombing planes, because we talked about how for this raid they need to extend the range of the Sawfish. And that for the. So for the torpedo aircraft, what they do is they put a fuel tank in the observer's seat. The observer moves to where the telegraphy's gonna sit for the, for the bombing planes. They mount the fuel tank on the torpedo, mount the, the cradle torpedo. So. So he's watching that go on. So at 21:20, the second wave sets off, led by Lieutenant Commander J.W. hale. It's 43 minutes after the first wave, and they're just like the first wave. They're under the. Under orders to use their initiative in taking on the target, which is what we saw in the last episode in is not everyone's approaching from the same direction. They're picking their, picking their route in so that the, so that the Italian gunners. There's one over here, there's one over there. You know, where are they, where are they coming from? And the first seven planes get away. Okay. And they're starting to form up. Right. Then the 8th LVF l means it's an Illustrious aircraft. E. The E in the tag means it's from Eagle comes up to the center line. This is a disaster. The 9th LVQ begins to move forward at the same time into the same part of the deck. Their wing, wingtips strike each other. Both engines stopped as they're pulled apart. Yep. The shut down L5Q was thought to be undamaged. And after a brief discussion between Captain Boyd, who's the commanding officer on Illustrious, and Commander Robinson, streamline Robinson, who's the guy who's running the aircraft. They clear L5Q for takeoff. Off you go. But L5F, which is crewed by Clifford and going. And you remember going, do.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

He's the guy who puts down and begs to be flown by Walrus back to Illustrious because he has to go on the raid.

[James Holland]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I've got a bad feeling about this. I always did right from the beginning. Reminds me of Darvin Nobody. Do you remember coming and going?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, of course. Well, Goey, they've two broken wing ribs, they've torn fabric. So they're taken down into the hangar for repair. Going. Goes to the captain, he goes to Boyd and begs to be allowed to fly. This is the second time, right, that he's had to do this, right?

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

He get. When, when his engine fails and he puts down because of the fungus, he goes to Captain Boyd. Boyd says yes. All right. Okay. So L5F takes off about 24 minutes behind the others.

[James Holland]

I've got a really bad feeling about this. I just want to say that right now, don't, don't spoil it for me. But anyone who's that keen going on a really dangerous mission is just destined not to make it.

[Al Murray]

But at 5 past 10, 2205, one of the bombing aircraft. More which is flown by Morford in L5Q, which is the, the first aircraft in that collision has to turn back when its external fuel tank detaches. Right. So this is the, the other plane.

[James Holland]

So they're man down again.

[Al Murray]

And this is the only failure of a, of, of a fuel tank. And it's not. It was knocked off its moorings. And maybe that happened in the accident. Maybe, you know, the Shock has dislodged the fuel tank. It's the thing they didn't spot.

[James Holland]

You could see how that would happen.

[Al Murray]

To be fair, you could see how that would happen. So the rest of the second wave proceeds to Taranto, basically, otherwise without incident. But with Cliffordon going, trying to catch up at 23:55.

[James Holland]

Five to midnight. Five minutes to midnight.

[Al Murray]

Hale, who's running the operation, running this wave sends off the two flare droppers to illuminate the harbour from a line to the east of the eastern shore and then leads the torpedo planes into attack from the northwest. Right, so here we go again. Right. They don't know anything about the first wave. This is the thing. We are completely in the dark. They don't know.

[James Holland]

They have no idea whether it's been success, what they're going to get, what reception is going to be there. No idea.

[Al Murray]

They know nothing. They don't know who's been shot down or if anyone's been shot down. And they know what damage has been done to the ships. So over the coast, 5,000ft, well north of Cape Rondinella, they follow the north shore to a position south of the canal. Oh, this is rather. This is hail.

[James Holland]

Yeah, and we should just say. We should just say al that. Taranto. If you think of the boot of Italy, it's the heel and it's on the western side of the heel. So Cape Rondinella is on the kind of, you know, it's the bottom kind of eastern side of the heel of the boot of Italy. Yeah, that's what we're talking about here.

[Al Murray]

And if you're the Italian navy, it's the. It's the perfect mooring, isn't it? It's absolutely perfect because you can get out nice and quick. You can force project all the way down to Alexandria. You can. You could dominate the Adriatic from there. You can, you can, you know, get to Sicily in no time at all. So it's, it's. And Malta. So it's, it's an ideal spot for mooring a navy. So no wonder they're. They're holed up there. Anyway, he's 30ft above the water. He drives, flies straight at the Littorio, drops his torpedo at a range of 700 yards, then banks steeply to starboard and narrowly missing the cable of a barrage balloon, safely makes his escape.

[James Holland]

Hooray.

[Al Murray]

This is like a video game, isn't it? But they only have to do it once, you know, in they go. So then L5K, which is flown by Lieutenant FMA Torrance Spence, Royal Navy as pilot and Lieutenant AWF Sutton as the observer. They follow the other aircraft over Cape Rondinella and they dive steeply through an inferno of flak. Because this is the thing, you know, we had that, we had that with Wellem's description at the start. There's just flak everywhere. The Italians are firing into a box barrage. And you know, in the. In the previous episode, Charles Lamb described the problems with this, which is that the Italians can't depress the guns. If you fly low enough, they can't depress the guns. They're also shooting at each other across the harbor, shooting into the town of Taranto.

[James Holland]

Yeah, but that.

[Al Murray]

So what? Right, you know, like. Yeah, there's enough going on, isn't there? Yeah, right. So he dives down into the harbour and he's aiming for position 5 cables, which is 914 meters. So I mean, look, we got. The thing is with the sea, isn't there, Jim? There's miles, nautical miles, knots, miles per hour cables.

[James Holland]

It's all confusing.

[Al Murray]

It's another world. Take your pick. Yeah, exactly. He's coming in south of the canal entrance, the canal that leads, that leads.

[James Holland]

Through into the Maripiccolo, into the Mario Piccolo.

[Al Murray]

And he nearly collides with E4H, which is flown by Bailey and Slaughter, who we'll come to in a minute, finds himself in the midst of just loads of ships. Confusing, a martyr of ships, you know, because the harbor is packed full and we'll find a graphic to stick up to go with the episode of just how busy the harbor is. Picks the Torio as his target, drops his fish. His torpedo at 700 yards. He's undercarriage hit the water.

[James Holland]

Oh, my goodness. Amazing that he didn't just flip over, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

It is absolutely amazing. But that's how stable and solid the swordfish is and slow, you know, cope.

[James Holland]

With just skimming the water. I mean, they're all picking on the littorio. What about the other battleships?

[Al Murray]

Well, that's the interesting thing, isn't it? Because they don't know that the first wave obstruct the Littorio, but they don't know about anything about the first wave. So you're going to pick the biggest, plumpest target, aren't you?

[James Holland]

Yeah, I guess so.

[Al Murray]

You know, and this is also one of the issues with, in the end, quite a reduced force of. Of swordfish coming in is that in the end they aren't really. And we'll talk about, we'll talk about this later. You know, have they got mass to actually deliver the body blow? They. They want to. Anyway, he pulls up between two balloons and he gets out. Two floating batteries suddenly loom up in the water ahead. Too late to be avoided. He pulls back the joystick. The aircraft flips up, passes over them. As the guns open up. They can feel the hot blast of the guns firing.

[James Holland]

Oh, my goodness me. And they escape with just one bullet hole. One bullet hole in the fuselage. So the littorio is hit, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, that's right.

[James Holland]

Hit by a single torpedo on the starboard bow, which then detonates at one minute past midnight.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Wonder whose it was.

[Al Murray]

It's unknown that the Italians afterwards find one undetonated torpedo in the mud. And it's been impossible, looking through the records and the infantries and everything actually to work out whose torpedo it was.

[James Holland]

Team effort. There's no I in team, Al. There's no I in team.

[Al Murray]

Well, exactly, exactly. But E4H, which is the. The. The plane that Torren Spence nearly collided with, flown by Bailey and Slaughter, is on a southerly heading from a position halfway between Cape Rondonnel and the town of Taranto and is shot down. And so Bailey and Slaughter are both killed. They aren't fortunate in the way that Williamson and Blood Scarlett were. They both. They are both lost. And at that moment, goodness, I'm still.

[James Holland]

Very worried about going.

[Al Murray]

Well, join us after the break to find out if the going is good.

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[Al Murray]

You coming where? To the North Pole, of course.

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[Al Murray]

Did I burn down the joy? I don't think so.

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[James Holland]

I think we're all in for a.

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[Professor Hannah Fry]

Hello, I'm Professor Hannah Fry.

[James Holland]

And I'm Michael Stevens, creator of Vsauce. We thought we would join you for.

[Al Murray]

A moment completely uninvited.

[Professor Hannah Fry]

We are not gonna stay too long unless you want us to.

[Marketa Sponsor]

Of course, we're here to tell you.

[James Holland]

About our brand new show. The rest is science.

[Professor Hannah Fry]

Every episode is gonna start with something that feels initially familiar, and then we're gonna unpick it and tear it apart until you no longer recognize it at all. Yeah, Banana flavor doesn't taste like bananas.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, what is that about?

[Professor Hannah Fry]

So it is supposed to taste like an old species of banana that was wiped out in a bananapocalypse and now you will only find it in botanical collections in the gardens of billionaires.

[James Holland]

Wow.

[Al Murray]

Banana candy is actually the ghost of a long extinct banana.

[Professor Hannah Fry]

So if you like scratch, scratching the surface thinking a little bit deeper or weirder. Yes, definitely that too. You can join Michael and I every Tuesday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts.

[Al Murray]

Welcome back to Way of ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. And we left you with E4H, unfortunately being shot down as the, as the second wave go into Taranto Harbour. The harbors in Taranto. So Lee in L5H, that's again, that's another aircraft from Illustrious. He comes over Cape Rondinella and dives along the northern shoreline at a position only two and a half cables south of the canal. And I'm guessing, well, if five cables is 914 meters, then two and a half cables is going to be what, half that?

[James Holland]

2,000 something? Yeah, half it, yeah.

[Al Murray]

All right. He's amazingly sanguine that he can, that he can say how far it was. He turns south and aims at the Duilio, releasing his torpedo at 800 yards. And he hits her on the starboard side abreast the B turret. And lee flying at L5H, gets away to the west because I guess your.

[James Holland]

Time over here, Al, I mean, you know, when you're flying in. So, so by the time you're going to Cape Rondinella to the target, what is that, like a couple of minutes? Something like that. And then, and then you're in. And I mean, you know, 80 knots is still quite fast. Quite fast. I mean, yeah, this is all going to be over in about three or four minutes, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. You're not, you're not there very long. And in fact, again, this comes back to the advantage of being of the advantage of the, of the Swordfish flying slow and stably. You know, you're flying well below the stall speed of, you know, the strike aircraft to come, right. So you've got plenty of time to, to line yourself up and point yourself at a big battleship.

[James Holland]

I mean, but Still, Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Yes. So. Well, John Wellem, who we met at the start of the episode, he's an E5H, so he's from Eagle. He again, he coasts in over Cape Rondinella and then flies furthest to the north, crossing over the Mar Piccolo and the town of Taranto at low level. Because in that description earlier we had chimneys and stuff.

[James Holland]

I can completely picture this, by the way. It's low ground around there. There's no hills or anything.

[Al Murray]

He narrowly misses the northernmost balloon in the eastern barrier before attacking the Vittorio Vineto from the east.

[James Holland]

If you think that Taranto is on the. Is on the. On the western side of the heel and you've got the Mar Piccolo on the eastern side of the town you're crossing over, that he would have then circled around from the north. He'd have circled eastwards and then come back in.

[Al Murray]

We left him where. Where there was a massive black object covering most of the horizon. A battleship.

[James Holland]

Yeah. Because the main bulk of Taranto is on this finger between the sea and the Maar Piccolo.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, so he says. I leveled out after turning 180 degrees and pointed towards the great black hulk of the ship. Height okay, judging from the level of her deck. Air speed dropping nicely. Angle of attack, not ideal, but the best I could do. Aircraft attitude for dropping, rotten. The only way that I could achieve a straight line was skidding with some left rudder and the right wing slightly down. Strings of lights prickled along her decks and multiple bridges and grew into long colored pencil lines drawn across the sky above us. So as he described, he temporarily lost the control of the aircraft where the 40mm shell hits the port wing and explodes, shattering some of the ribs and making a large hole in the fabric. But he takes control of the plane, launches his torpedo without a steady tracking run from a position of about 500 yards onto the battleship starboard bow. Unfortunately, it misses.

[James Holland]

But no, after all that effort.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, he still gets away despite the damage to his swordfish.

[James Holland]

Yes, there's slightly. A few hairy moments there.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Meanwhile, anyway, last time he went out, he sunk two ships for the price of one.

[James Holland]

So he's got credit in the bank.

[Al Murray]

He's still in credit. So the two flare dropping aircraft. So this is, this is what they've been doing. Two aircraft have been held back and illuminating the scene so that people can make these choices and decisions down in the harbor. So There's Hamilton and L5B. He drops his line of flares at 5,000ft, 15 second intervals on a line southwest to northeast. And that you know, loitering, because the, because the swordfish can loiter. And this is what, this is what we. Charles Lamb's description was in the last episode where they're firing at the flares and not at him, you know, because the flares illuminate after they've dropped a few, a couple of thousand feet. So it's okay up there. But they then. But they are armed with bombs. So he then goes in and bombs the oil storage depot in the harbour. And Skelton, who's an L4F behind him, he follows suit. But the last aircraft, Jim.

[James Holland]

And he hits. And they hit the oil storage depot, don't they?

[Al Murray]

But Jim, the last aircraft to attack, it's Clifford and It's going an L5F, who as we all know, departed illustrious 24 minutes after his colleague. And you think of those, those lads in the hangar patching that plane up so it's airworthy. Yep, in 24 minutes or 20 minutes, I mean, it's on grill. It's absolutely remarkable. I mean, and you could do that with a fabric aircraft can't do that with an F35, can you? If you bend one of those. And they arrive literally as everyone else is leaving, they fly again. They use the flak as the marker to fly towards. And they see oil streak water below, fires burning brightly. The flak has actually died down. And Clifford, unheardly, he circles, he drones around the harbour, picking what to bomb. At 500ft, he levels off and aims his six bombs at two cruisers. But there are no explosions and he thinks he's missed. In fact, one of the semi armor piercing bombs has gone through the thin plating of the cruiser Trento, but doesn't go off. He then turns north, crosses the mar. Piccolo turns to starboard out over the coast, five miles east of the harbour. So it's okay, you still gotta make it back to the carrier.

[James Holland]

Okay. Yeah, but so far so good.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, okay.

[James Holland]

But if this was Hollywood, he wouldn't. He would have been killed.

[Al Murray]

No, Going would be the guy who would be gone. Exactly. If this was Hollywood. But Going survives.

[James Holland]

Well, thank goodness for that.

[Al Murray]

I know, What a relief, right? 0250 hours on the 12th of November, all of the surviving aircraft landed have landed on, as they say in the Fleet Air Arm, had landed on an Illustrious. And a task force including Clifford are going, yeah, it's brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. And she steams away, thank goodness, and.

[James Holland]

She'S all that worry and I need to be worrying at all.

[Al Murray]

We'll get to the. How Successful they've been in a minute. But Illustrious is then greeted with a signal hoist from the flagship that reads, illustrious maneuver well executed.

[James Holland]

Don't make a fuss. It's a marvel of understatement, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Absolutely, absolutely. Because two aircraft lost.

[James Holland]

That's a light. Light kind of casualty, this, really, though, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. And only two crew killed, so. Because Williamson and Scarlett have both been. Have both been picked up.

[James Holland]

Well, you'd have taken that beforehand, wouldn't you? You would.

[Al Murray]

You would have taken that beforehand. And for all the light we're, you know. You know, we started this episode with Charles Lamb saying, well, obviously no one's coming back. Obviously, they're all dead. Yeah, obviously everyone's. I can't see how anyone wasn't shot down. I think that's pretty good, isn't it?

[James Holland]

Yeah, amazing. Yeah. So the ammunition expenditure is extraordinary. So this is from. This is the Italian gunners. Okay, so 125 millimeter cannons. 1430 rounds.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

107 millimeter cannons, 313 rounds. So not many of them. 88 millimeter. 6854 rounds. So that's your heavy flak machine gun. 40 millimeter. 931 rounds. Well, that's not so many. 20 millimeter. 26. 35 rounds. 8 millimeters. 637 rounds total. 12,800 rounds.

[Al Murray]

It's absolutely extraordinary when you. Could you consider that what you're looking at is sort of, I don't know, 10 minutes over target both times. I mean, it's something like that. It's quite extraordinary. And of course, I mean, the other thing, though, is the following day, because Operation Judgment, the idea of Operation Judgment is they're going to go back again.

[James Holland]

They've got.

[Al Murray]

They're going to go back again and finish the job, is the idea. And this is partly to do with the fact that it's a reduced strike force. So. So, you know, when I was looking at this, I thought, well, this reminds me of the dam busters, because people often say, why don't they go back and bomb the dam repairs the next day? Why does Bomber Command never attack that target again? Or not immediately attack it, like, further in. Bugger. The German war effort or whatever. They are preparing further strikes. And ABC and Lister's reasoning is that they should get in again before the Italians can improve their defenses. And there's tons more targets to strike. You know, in a way, they've. In a way, it's been the tip of the iceberg and there are repair efforts to disrupt. But at about 1600 hours, ABC wonders whether it wouldn't be too. Asking too much of the crews to make them go back. One of the crews is said to have remarked, after all, they only asked the Light Brigade to do it once. The decision is then left with Lister. And remember, it's Lister's plan from before the war to strike the Italian fleet in harbor.

[James Holland]

Right. I mean, the point is about this is. Is. Is they've got off lightly, haven't they? Let's face it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. They got away with it. Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, when, When Charles Lannister saying, you know, I can't see how anyone could possibly get out of this alive. What's that effect? I mean, it's not wrong.

[Al Murray]

No.

[James Holland]

I mean, it's just that they do.

[Al Murray]

And the crew's appetite for doing it again, I imagine, was pretty slender. And at 1800 hours, they get a bad weather forecast and they call it off. So really relief all round.

[James Holland]

Few. Relief all round. Everyone's sort of decision made.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the next day you won't be able to do it because after all, the task force has to steam on. You can't stay put. You can't be static flying. This sort of, you know.

[James Holland]

Yeah. Second strike has got to happen the second day or not at all, hasn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right. Yeah. So. And the thing is, of course, surprise was not achieved. The Italians were alert because of. Because of other aircraft activity. Even without radar, they've managed to put up a defense. So it probably would be tempting fate to try it again because some, you know, there's going to be an Italian gunnery officer going, right, okay, lads, is here. This is here where we went wrong, right. It's got. It's gutsy flying and a modicum of luck mean that the Fleet Air Arm have achieved its. Its first greater decisive victory. So you could stick that in your Swordfisher obsolete pipe and smoke it. Right.

[James Holland]

Yeah, you absolutely can.

[Al Murray]

And the other thing I think this is, this also is in the. It is of a piece with. Is the Belgrano. When the Belgrano was sunk in the Falklands War, the idea was to say to the Argentinian Navy, go back to your harbor and do not. Do not return to our seas. And this has kind of got the same message in it. We'll come and find you. We'll come and get you. And I think that's the. That's Royal Navy aggression, right. Writ large.

[James Holland]

And to be honest, it works pretty well it works pretty well. I mean, the Italian fleet is remarkable in Second World War for completely underperforming.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And you know, you have cape Matapan in March 1941, where they get another trouncing. That's basically it.

[Al Murray]

The threat's the threat's the threat. Right. And that's the thing that. That's the thing that Cunningham is concerned about. So Cunningham receives his signal, which is that. Which is the. From. From Naval Intelligence about looking at the photographs in Taranto. And. And the signal says, have examined Toronto photographs carefully and until enlarged. I do not wish unduly to raise your hopes, but it definitely appears that A one Littorio class is down by the bows with forecastle awash and a heavy list starboard. Numerous auxiliaries alongside. B1 Cavour class breached opposite entrance to graving dock. Under construction. Stern including Y turret is underwater. Ship is heavily listed to starboard. C in a harbor, two cruisers are listed to starboard and surrounded by oil fuel. D2 auxiliaries off commercial base in the pit of stern underwater. Hearty congratulations on a great effort. So that's the. The initial assessment from photographic evidence.

[James Holland]

Well, so the Littorio is hit twice on the starboard side and once on the port Stern. Starboard 1 is a. Is a 10 by a 10 meter by 7.5 meter hole, another 11 by 5 meter hole near the bow and the port side, a 7 meter by 1.5. So these are big holes, you know, that's not being repaired anytime soon. Yeah. The Cavour, the starboard side is. She's hit on a keel. The Duilo is similarly damaged. Repairs do begin immediately, and because they've been struck in such shallow water, the ships are with a. You know, they've got a chance of being saved. A bit like the ones at Pearl harbor when that happens. But by early morning on 12 November, Littoria's bow was resting on the bottom between 0400 and 0627. She had been towed through gaps in the torpedo nets across the Mar Grande to the west and grounded on the Mermaid bank in a position with a water depth of about 45ft. But the long and short of it is this Conti di Cavour, subsequently raised, partially repaired and transferred to Trieste for further repairs and upgrades. She was still undergoing repairs when Italy surrendered, so never returned to full service.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. How about that? Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

The Duilio had only a slightly smaller hole, 11 meters by 7, which is 36 foot by huge hole. Saved by running her aground. Le Littorio was repaired with all available resources and was fully operational again within four months. Even so. And at the same time there was a cruiser raid into the Strait of Atranto.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And this is HMS Orion, Sydney and Ajax, together with Nubian, the destroyers Nubian and Mohawk under Vice Admiral Priddham Whipple. And they run into an Italian convoy quarter past one in the morning on the 12th of November. They engage it. Minutes later they sink four merchant ships. They drive their escorts off in an action that ABC calls a boldly executed operation into narrow waters. So it's a terrible, terrible night for the, for the Regia Marina. Right. No, you know, there are those that argue that, you know, it's not a decisive blow and also it's still, it's still, it's terrible. Right. And one of the interesting things here on the Allied side, on the British side, is that credit for Taranto goes to the Fleet Air Arm. Up to this point, right, credit for torpedo strikes has been going to the Royal Air Force because the Royal Air Force are involved in prosecution, this sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah. But they've been getting the credit because up to this point it's been decided to keep the news of the success of the carrier force under wraps.

[James Holland]

Right, right.

[Al Murray]

Because, because it's new and will it work and, and what's it actually capable of?

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you don't want to be hoisted by your own petard, do you?

[Al Murray]

Precisely. You don't want to overclaim. The Italians know perfectly well what's gone on, of course. And there are, there are strategic consequences and morale consequences. So that first of all, interestingly, for all the heroics we've written about, I don't think it's a particularly well garlanded operation for the crews. Four DSOs, 16 DSCs.

[James Holland]

Yeah, but it's a success.

[Al Murray]

It's a success. Exactly. If half of them had been shot down, you'd have to, I think you'd have three crews with Victoria Crosses, Right. Going. Would have got one just for wanting to go.

[James Holland]

Right.

[Al Murray]

If he'd been shot down.

[James Holland]

Yes, but. Yes, I should have, I should have realized that.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Holland]

It was going to be okay.

[Al Murray]

It's going to be okay. But the crews, the crews were jubilant, you know, because this is the thing. And the Fleet Air Arm, don't forget, the Fleet Air Arm is brand new or has only just gone back into Navy control. Has been at the back of the queue for kit. You know, the Air Ministry doesn't believe in it. They're fighting the Air Ministry tooth and nail for every Improvement they try and make. And the Royal Navy leans right into its history. And Charles Lamb, I mean this is just fantastic. He reports, doesn't he, Jim?

[James Holland]

As the captain said in a talk to the ship's company, we have achieved our aim. He went on to say that in one night the ship's aircraft are achieved a greater amount of damage to the enemy than Nelson achieved in the Battle of Trafalgar and nearly twice the amount that the entire British fleet achieved in the Battle of Jutland in the First World War. What was more important, it was the first good news to reach the bomb wary British since the war began. It will cheer the entire free world, he said. I mean, he's got a point. I mean, don't forget this is, this is the night of the 11th 12th of November, you know, and what happens a couple of nights later, it's Coventry.

[Al Murray]

You know, so all that is going.

[James Holland]

On back home while this, this daring, yeah, tenacious raid.

[Al Murray]

And we mentioned earlier on the idea of over promising. Winston Churchill says the result affects decisively the balance of naval power in the military region and also carries with it reactions upon a naval situation in every quarter of the globe. You know, he's leaning into it.

[James Holland]

Even the Times goes mad, doesn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, the Times goes crazy.

[James Holland]

The Times goes mad. The congratulations and gratitude of the nation are due in their fullest measure to the Fleet Air Arm who have won a great victory in the largest operation in which they have yet been engaged against enemy ships. And to Sir Andrew Cunningham, who is the first flag officer to handle the new weapon on such a scale and has used it triumphantly.

[Al Murray]

There we go. Even the King gets involved. Al the King gets stuck in and writes to Cunningham, sends him a message.

[James Holland]

I know I've got to do this one, don't I? Because I'm George the 6th. The recent successful operations of the fleet under your command have been a source of pride and gratification to all at home. Please convey my warm congratulations to the Mediterranean Fleet and in particular to the Fleet Air Arm on their brilliant exploit against the Italian warships at Taranto. Literally could be in the room.

[Al Murray]

Well, it literally could be in the room. And if the Stoic club is going to have a, like a. What would he be called? King Stone, totemistic leader the other side of the hill or the other side of the bay. Mussolini is perhaps not so bothered.

[James Holland]

I do not care about my ships.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, well, Ciano goes to see him, the Foreign Minister, who's his son in law, of course, goes the same a Black day. The British, without warning, have attacked the Italian fleet in anchor in Taranto and have sunk the dreadnought Cavour and seriously damaged the battleships Littorio and Duilio. These ships will remain out of the fight for many months. I thought I would find the duchy downhearted. Instead, he took the blow quite well and does not at the moment seem to have fully realized its gravity.

[James Holland]

Okay, well, we just worked out who's going to be Chano from now on.

[Al Murray]

I thought it was similarly.

[James Holland]

I'll do king George the Fi6. You do Chano.

[Al Murray]

Okay. Okay.

[James Holland]

So I'm King George VII and Goering.

[Al Murray]

I'm Hitler and Ciano. Okay. And Churchill.

[James Holland]

And I'm Roosevelt.

[Al Murray]

It's quite the portfolio. But. But for all this, a Fortnight later, on the 27th of November, Admiral Capione with his remaining battleships, the Vittorio Veneto, which. Which they kept trying to strike, and the Giulio Cesare fight a running battle with Somerville south of Sardinia around the usual east west British convoy movements. And this is an action sometimes known as Cape Spartivento or Capo Teolada or Operation Collo. So it's not like, yes, the Italian fleet does decide to decamp to Naples where it feels less exposed, but it's still prepared to mix it and only a fortnight later. So the idea that this is an overwhelming strike that changes everything isn't quite right. And there's bits of the Italian Navy that still have that, still, that are still well, up for it, I think it's fair to say. And they have their advantages, which is they're fighting in their home waters, that they are reading British ciphers and the navy can't read theirs. They've shut them out. So they are.

[James Holland]

I just don't. I never get the impression at any point in the war that the Italian Navy is really up for it, though they get hammered at Cape Matapan, and we should do a whole episode or series on that because that's a. That's a great action, you know, and. And they don't venture out much. Remember in 1942, in. You know, they get chased away, don't they?

[Al Murray]

Yeah. But their. Their philosophy is to have a fleet in being. The idea is that you're a threat. There's a fleet in being. That the fleet exists, that. And that's. Its function is to be like a deterrent, essentially, rather than actually mix it up too much.

[James Holland]

Rather than aggressive.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, rather than necessarily aggressive. It's the simple fact that it exists a fleeting being. And so if you're if that's your, if that's your attitude, then going back to Naples, well, it's inconvenient, but it's, but it's not the end of the world, which is how.

[James Holland]

Even so, I think the psychological blow of being hit by carrier borne aircraft at night, out of the blue, I mean, okay, they can say that they're, they're awake and coming, but they're not awake until they pick up that, that, that one recce plane. But early on in the evening, you know, I, I think that must have been absolutely devastating for the Italians because they're suddenly thinking, yikes, we don't have any carriers.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, we've missed out on that bit. And, and, and they must, they must be thinking we slightly kind of missed the boat on this one. We, we've, you know, you know, it's great that we've got all these cruises and stuff but, but we don't have. This is what carriers can do and we're kind of behind the, behind the ball here.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. But the clue in it is application of air power means control of sea power. And it's only January when, when, when the Germans enter the air power war in the Mediterranean when Illustrious is struck, it's only January, it's only two months later. So this is, it's quite a short air window that the Fleet Air Arm has actually. I mean one of the things, one of the questions that's worth asking is why aren't, why isn't it a big, why isn't it a bigger strike? Why doesn't ABC insist on more sawfish? They don't do the follow up raids. Well, don't forget this is the first.

[James Holland]

Time they're doing it, isn't it? I mean, you know.

[Al Murray]

Well, yeah, yeah. Lister really regrets that Eagle wasn't able to, to join properly. He thinks a great, a greater weight of attack would have made it actually devastating for the Italian Navy and rather than put the Italians into a, you know, fleet in being posture would have, would have actually struck.

[James Holland]

Right.

[Al Murray]

You know, if you hit, if you hit all the battleships and you sink them properly or you blow up a magazine because it's one of the things about this strike is they don't blow up a magazine like Wellem, like Wellem at Sidi Bahrani where he does blow up the magazine on the depot ship and destroys a submarine as well. Yeah, they don't blow a magazine. Which is also why the Italian, the Italians treat Williamson and Scarlet, the prisoners of war who are taken in this operation, they treat them well because basically they haven't killed a thousand people on the littorio.

[James Holland]

Yes. And it is interesting to think, isn't it? What would have happened if they had really totally destroyed say two of the, or three of the battleships and a couple of cruisers, then that really, really would be a blow, wouldn't it?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Holland]

But don't forget it is, you know, this is still, this is still only November 1940, you know, and it's brand.

[Al Murray]

New that, you know, they tried it, they tried it on the, done a little bit of this in Dakar, but not so deliberately as they do here at Toronto. And the Japanese are watching, of course, and their main lesson that they draw is mass and surprise. And that's why you have six aircraft carriers committed by the Japanese 353 day aircraft in their strike on the 7th of December the following year. But yeah, they sink four battleships, right, with all that mass, four damaged other vessels damaged. Is that worth it in terms of bang for your buck, particularly as at Pearl harbor, you have the same problem as at Taranto, which is shallow moorings means ships can be pumped out and recovered, which limits the effect of your strike. Full surprise.

[James Holland]

Well, and also it launches Japan into a war which they're ultimately not going to win.

[Al Murray]

Well, exactly. But if they really wanted to strike a greater blow, they should have struck American ships at sea, which would have been unrecoverable in a way. The thing, the thing the Japanese learn is the wrong thing, which is that. Which is that striking a, Striking a fleet in harbor only gets you so far. These aren't. Would you know. Unless, of course, you hit a magazine and the whole thing goes up. Right, but they don't.

[James Holland]

Right, yeah.

[Al Murray]

This is interesting. And how big a window does it give, Cunningham? How long is the strategic effect? And like I said earlier, as the, as the, given the games the Italians are playing, which is keeping the fleet intact, living on the threat, rather than too much interdiction, you know. And obviously the thing that's coming, which is the air war, because everything we talked about with Malta is about the effect of air on the sea rather than sea sticking up for itself. Particularly. Is this the window, though, where you populate Malta with Spitfires, Jim, and use it in an aggressive posture?

[James Holland]

Yes, it is. That's exactly what you do. There's missed opportunities, aren't there? We're always getting at the Germans for their missed opportunities, but there's definitely some missed opportunities.

[Al Murray]

There are, but I think part of that is tangled up in the novelty of this attack. They're experimenting, they're trying something so the consequences aren't strategically factored in. You've tried something novel tactically to try and deliver strategic effect. And the strategic effect actually is a thing you're not prepared to follow up on. And once this has succeeded, then the Italian Navy will bugger off for a bit and we'll invest, multiproply, we'll get investing multiple, properly bringing the Spitfires and can be aggressive. And this is the window, I think, because as I said, it's January when Illustrious is struck and loads of the men who flew in judgment are lost in the. In. In the strike on Illustrious.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

So there we are.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah. Amazing.

[Al Murray]

Nevertheless.

[James Holland]

Well, what a great story, though. I mean, it's amazing, isn't it?

[Al Murray]

I know. There's still Taranto night in the roll in the Fleet Air arm, of course, November 11, where they. Where they raise a glass to their predecessors, because I think this is. This has got absolutely everything you could possibly want in it. It's got pluck, it's got grit, it's got an unlikely hero in the form of the swordfish. It's got all these fabulous stoic fellows flying in. It's got the. I'm just. I mean, pick picture the scene of the Italian effort to drag the littorio out through this, you know, Mamma mia.

[James Holland]

I mean, just imagine it as a story. What's not to like? And the good news is, is that our great friend of Roland White is. His next book is on Toronto.

[Al Murray]

So everyone, thanks for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this story. We will be returning for a little bit more string bag action at the other end of the spectrum with stringbags on the Arctic convoy. In our next episode, Open Open Air.

[James Holland]

Cockpits in the Arctic.

[Al Murray]

Go to our Patreon subscribe or go to our Apple podcast channel and become a officer class member. A Fleet Air Arm officer class member. Because I'm beginning to think these are the. These are the greatest pilots of all time. And we will. We will see you for our next episode in the Arctic. Thanks for listening, everybody.

[James Holland]

Cheerio, Cheerio.

[Al Murray]

Limu and Doug, here we have the Limu imu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[James Holland]

Cut the camera.

[Al Murray]

They see us.

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[Al Murray]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty Savings Ferry unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.

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