← WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
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- [00:02]
Al Murray
Thank you for listening to we have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com wehaveways.
- [00:26]
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- [00:55]
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- [01:24]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [02:04]
Al Murray
Hey buddy, watch out. Hey buddy, watch out. Welcome to Way of Ways of Making you talk with me, Al Murray, James Holland. As you're probably aware, this is we are actually at the halfway mark in our Best in the west or Best of the West Point. Is that what we're talking about?
- [02:15]
James Holland
Sounds good. And we're talking in Best of the West Point and where we're talking about Americans.
- [02:19]
Al Murray
Yeah, Americans. And we worked our way through seven of our American top candidates. And of course it's not just up to us. You can go to our we have ways Patreon and vote and we're going to use your votes and the response to this to guide us to a resolution for this argument about who the best generals of the Second World War were.
- [02:36]
James Holland
We'll never have to confront it ever again.
- [02:38]
Al Murray
It'll be settled at we have Ways Fest, and no one shall speak of this topic ever again. That's our. Our core aim here is to finally shut this down forever, you know, because so much ink has been spilled over, over so much of this that just didn't need to be. You could be arguing about T34s and Shermans and you. You're busy arguing about Patton and Monty. Anyway, our Americans continue. When we talked about Alan Brooke rather than Alan Brook in the British episodes.
- [03:07]
James Holland
Almarie.
- [03:08]
Al Murray
Almarie. Jimmyland, so weird.
- [03:13]
James Holland
Never got to the bottom. No one's ever explained to me why he chose to call himself Alanbrook.
- [03:19]
Al Murray
Lord Albury, Lord Almiry, Lord Jimmy.
- [03:23]
James Holland
It's got a kind of ring to it.
- [03:24]
Al Murray
Well, I think Jimmyland is definitely. Lord Jimmyland joins us now.
- [03:29]
James Holland
Come on, let's get on with it. We've got to talk about Marshall.
- [03:32]
Al Murray
Well, we've got to talk about George C. Marcel, but when we talked about Alanbrook, we very much said, you know, how do you actually, you know, because lots of this is apples and oranges is what we've been talking about. You know, you compare an army group commander to an armored division commander. They're not poles apart, but there are big differences. And in a way, George C. Marshall sits above the fray almost literally, doesn't he?
- [03:52]
James Holland
Yep.
- [03:52]
Al Murray
And he's such a big figure and he's so important to the American conduct of the War Office. Basically, nearly everyone we've talked about in the last American episode, at some point, the person has come into Marshall's orbit and been spotted and been sort of had their card mark. Right. He's core. A core person in the process that the Americans undergo as they put the war effort together. So he's from Pennsylvania, born in 1880.
- [04:16]
James Holland
Yep. So, you know, he's. He's old.
- [04:18]
Al Murray
He's old. That's right. Yeah. He's a senior person. He, you know, graduates the Virginian military institute in 1901. So, you know, well before the all the sort of starry generals we've been talking about. But he's known, he's very dedicated, he's calm, he's exceptional organizational skills. So it sounds quite unlike me. And he served in the Philippines in 1902, 1903. He's a turn of the century active soldier, isn't he? Goes to France in the First World War as part of the American Expeditionary Force. He's involved in the Meuse Argonne Offensive. And he's spotted by General John J. Pershing, who's the sort of previous generation for his organizational brilliance. And then, you know, it's the interwar period, it's the same thing. But the point is he's that much older than all the people we've been talking about so far. Fifteen years older than most of them.
- [05:05]
James Holland
Well, he becomes, and he also, he becomes Chief of staff in 19. In September 1939.
- [05:10]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah.
- [05:10]
James Holland
And he's still Chief of Staff and you know, in August 1945.
- [05:14]
Al Murray
That's actually the, the really important thing.
- [05:16]
James Holland
And that doesn't get, get in until end of 1941.
- [05:19]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [05:20]
James Holland
You know, he is there for the whole thing. He, he is without question the architect of U.S. grand strategy. You know, I know Philip's place. No, Brian would argue for Leahy and having a greater role. Who's the direct advisor to Roosevelt. But again, Marshall is this towering figure. You know, he is the guy who along with Roosevelt has overseen the transformation of America as the 19th largest army to, you know, biggest in the world. The balancing of political constraints, inter allied relations, which he has to manage. His role as a talent spotter I think is really important. You know, he is the guy who spots Eisenhower.
- [05:56]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [05:57]
James Holland
Clark Bradley. I mean these are all his appointments. Yeah.
- [06:01]
Al Murray
What is really striking about that is it's when he's appointed Chief of staff on the 1st of September 1939. And that's the day him and Roosevelt decide they've got to turn the army around, you know, before the war in Europe or the day the war in Europe has begun. You know, the prescience and, and then also political capital that has to expend on that is, you know, critical to the development of the American army. And you know, this is the high point of isolationism and they decide to.
- [06:28]
James Holland
Expand the army and he is also. And post war, he's also arguably the most successful Secretary of State ever.
- [06:33]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [06:34]
James Holland
I mean, you know, he's so obviously a titanic great man, but he's not a battlefield commander. So you know, I just, I'm just going to exclude him from my own personal list of this. Although I think he is, you know, I think he's one of the great figures of the Second World War.
- [06:48]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [06:48]
James Holland
Because it is, it's just this problem of sort of comparing a battlefield commander or even an army group commander with someone like him, which is much more political role, let's face it.
- [06:57]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [06:58]
James Holland
But in that political role, managing the armed forces, you know, he is supreme. I mean he is incredibly good. You know, and aren't we lucky the Americans appointed him in September 1939.
- [07:10]
Al Murray
I think we, we can say that we are. Next on our list, though, Lieutenant General Tri Middleton. Now, I'm a bit of a fan of Troy Middleton. Yeah, me too, because again, he's born in 1889.
- [07:20]
James Holland
Brave as a lion.
- [07:21]
Al Murray
Yeah. Hillsborough, Mississippi. Grew up on a farm, attended Mississippi Agricultural and Mechanical College, and then joins the army as a private on 3rd March 1910 because he's unable to enroll at West Point. Still too young. He's only 19 and too young to apply for commission. Promoted to corporal after 27 months. Passes the exams to become an officer in 1912, but not commissioned until 1913 to teaches himself.
- [07:45]
James Holland
He's like gammit, you know, he just goes, right, I'm going to do this. He's incredibly sporty, he's a brilliant American football player, but he's good at all sports, even though he's sort of, you know, in later life when you see pictures of him, he's kind of got round spectacles. He looks a bit bookish. Back in the day, he was like, Mr. Hunk.
- [08:00]
Al Murray
Yeah, well, so then he has a. He's involved in the hunt for Pancho.
- [08:04]
James Holland
Villa in Mexico, because that's the other.
- [08:07]
Al Murray
Thing to remember about the American armies. They're doing that stuff like that as.
- [08:10]
James Holland
Well, which we seems to sort of belong to the kind of days of the American wet. You know, revolvers and things, and. Do you know what I mean?
- [08:16]
Al Murray
Yes. And that there's a whole thing where Patton uses motorcars for that, which blows everyone's minds. And, you know, he picks up a Distinguished Service Cross, a Silver Star in his time in France, and then grinds his way through all these regimental and staff assignments. He's an instructor at Fort Benning. We're slipping into the sort of the axiomatic. He's an outstanding trainer, he's a great.
- [08:37]
James Holland
Tactician, but he sees time in the Philippines.
- [08:41]
Al Murray
Exactly.
- [08:41]
James Holland
He becomes good friends of Eisenhower, but he retires from the army in 1937 as a half colonel. That's it, I'm done. But then after Pearl harbor offers to rejoin and so does as a lieutenant colonel on the 20th of January 1942. Within six months, he's a brigadier general and posted to 45th Division. And before the summer is out, he's promoted again to Major General and given command of the 45th Division. And this is part of the old clearing out of the old guard, which might seem odd for someone who's already retired from the Army. Once he's actually pretty dynamic, you know, and he's clever and he's been there and he's got the T shirt and he's actually seen lots of action. And he commands the 45th Infantry Division on the stateside. He's not involved in North Africa. Posted North Africa in April 1943 for planning for Husky. But he's not, in part, he doesn't actually take part in the Tunisian campaign. Then leads the 45th Infantry Division in Husky. So the invasion of Sicily again, does really, really well, you know, does really well at Salerno.
- [09:37]
Al Murray
Yeah. And then. And we talked about this, he has a problem with a long term chronic knee injury.
- [09:42]
James Holland
Yeah. Which has suffered during, you know, his football days.
- [09:44]
Al Murray
Yeah. And he's. So he's. He' in hospital in Naples. By late November 1943, it looks like his war's over. He's sent back to the US to recuperate. There's this really brilliant thing, Eisenhower saying, I don't give a damn about his knees. I want his head and his heart, and I'll take him into battle in a litter if we have to. And you're like, that's how they rate the guy.
- [10:04]
James Holland
Yeah. And if Ike rates him, then who are we to kind of disagree?
- [10:07]
Al Murray
Well, but also if Ike writes him, who's anyone else to disagree within the American, you know, Ike gets what he wants. Right. So he's sent back to take command of 8 Corps in February 1944 with a physio in tow, Sergeant Physiotherapist to take over from a General Emil F. Reinhardt. Sounds like he might be on the other side. Who's brought eight corps from the US but has no combat experience. And then is part, obviously part of the second wave with First army in Normandy. Comes on the 11th. They land on the 11th of June and, you know, fights at the Ko Tatan Peninsula.
- [10:44]
James Holland
You know, there's a sense that he can sort of nurture people and take them on and he can turn sort of, you know, not great divisions into really good divisions and so on. And late July, he's also, along with Collins, seven corps. He's in part of Operation Cobra. And again, they do really well. Incidentally, he's personally warns General McNair to keep away from the bombing. That obviously kills him.
- [11:07]
Al Murray
That kills him.
- [11:09]
James Holland
John man is killed on the 24th in the 1st.
- [11:11]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [11:12]
James Holland
And originally he was, you know, 7, 8 Corps. Rather is supposed to be part of 3rd Army. Gets moved into 1st army just before D Day and now gets moved back again on the 1st of August, when 3rd army comes into being and he has two armored divisions, two infantry divisions, and he is at this moment at the beginning of August with Patton now in charge. He is momentarily a bit thrown by the kind of cut and thrust of armored warfare, but he adapts, that's the point. And he does very well in Brittany. You know, he kind of mops everything up from criticizing him. Seven weeks later, Patton gives him the Distinguished Service Medal, Says, you know, you're the man. So, yeah, there's a sense of adaptability in Middleton, I think, which is the.
- [11:52]
Al Murray
Moment he really shines, though, is in the Battle of the Bulge, isn't it? When it's his core that are holding the thin defending sector of the Ardennes, including Bastogne. He recognises for what it is, organizes 101st Airborne to Garrison Bastogne as a strong point, block that nodal point for the Germans. He runs all the delaying actions, defensive withdrawals to buy time for people. It's him deciding to hold. Who decides to hold Bastogne. I know everyone knows it's Easy Company who do that. I'm aware that everyone knows that, that Easy Company make that decision to win the Battle of the Bulge on their own, but it's actually, it's Troy Middleton who's the decisions and his ability to react as the German cascade of offensives comes at him and to stay cool. And again, cooperating very closely with Patton to enable the relief of Bastogne. And I think because he's come through the army as a private, because he's self taught, you get this feeling that it's not about a career, it's about what it means to him somehow. I like the guy.
- [12:49]
James Holland
Yeah, me too. You know, he. Boyd's flamboyant, he's not a show pony, but he's kind of decisive, isn't he? He's clearly got great tactical judgment, he's composed, he's smart as anything. You know, a good man in a crisis and a good man not in a crisis, frankly. But Patton calls him one of the ablest corps commanders in the U.S. army. And that's the point. He doesn't get beyond core.
- [13:11]
Al Murray
But the question is, though, because this is the name of the game, is he better or worse than General Alexander Patch? Well, yes, that's what, that's what we're doing here.
- [13:21]
James Holland
Well, Patch is another of the forgotten men, isn't he? Because largely because he's in, in 6th Army Group, he's Dragoon, he's been in.
- [13:27]
Al Murray
The east, he's Been at Guadalu Canal, Solomon Islands. He's been the other end of the world.
- [13:31]
James Holland
Yeah, well, I think that's to his massive advantage in my book.
- [13:34]
Al Murray
Yes. But it also, it's one of the reasons you end up, when you get to the west, you may be that little bit lower down the pecking order. Not quite as well known. You haven't been in the spotlight because the, the European theater is an easier place for journalists to go. For instance. You know, one of the things that Bradley does is he makes sure he's talking to the press, keeps them ticking over. Patton is very good at delivering the public focus is on those Western, on the European theater battles, isn't it?
- [13:55]
James Holland
Yeah, yeah.
- [13:56]
Al Murray
And so if you've spent two years in Guadalcanal and the Solomon Islands, you might not be on the tip of everyone's tongue.
- [14:02]
James Holland
Right.
- [14:02]
Al Murray
And I think that partly patches problem, isn't it?
- [14:04]
James Holland
Yeah, well, let's just very quickly. He's born in 1889. He graduates from West Point in 1913. He's with the 18th Infantry Regiment, part of the 1st Infantry Division, which of course the 18th infantry land on Omaha on D day. And he sees plenty of action in France, fights in key battles at Cantonese, Soissons, Meuse, Argonne Offensive. Gets the Distinguished Service Cross for heroism, inter war service, mixture of regimental and staff posts, you know, instructors, graduates from one general staff school, Army War College. Tick, tick, tick. And you know, by 1940 he's a colonel commanding 47th Infantry Regiment. He's a little bit older than the others, most of them, you know, he just is a bit. Promoted major general in May 1942. Signed to the South Pacific, takes command of 14 Corps in December 1942 during the Guadalcanal campaign. And he replaces the Marine general Alexander Vandegrift, big figure in the Pacific War as the overall ground commander on the island. So, you know, Lawton Collins, for example, who we've talked about already, he's serving underneath him at this point. So directs joint Army Marine operations, you know, which I think is important, and gets high praise for his ability to coordinate Army Marine and allied units. So, you know, and in challenging jungle warfare conditions. So pretty impressive New Georgia campaign.
- [15:15]
Al Murray
Then returns to the US Is reassigned to the European theater. Promoted to lieutenant General in March of 44. He's given 7th army who are training in North Africa for the invasion of Southern France. So for Dragoon.
- [15:27]
James Holland
So this is after Patton's been sacked.
- [15:29]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yes. So when we talked about divas, you know, you know, if you are part of Dragoon, you are not top of everyone's list, are you? Adventure and excitement. You can advance briskly into the Alsace if you want. But people don't. Don't know about that, do they? Or care less about that.
- [15:46]
James Holland
But again, you know, he, again, he's another one of the few American generals that has to do proper coalition warfare. Because I think, I think, you know, it's one thing doing it with the British, I think it's another thing doing it with the French with different languages and stuff. And particularly when the French have got, you know, troops who are not all French. They're also Tunisian, Moroccan, Algerian and all the rest of it. You know, it comes with a series, you know, a certain amount of challenges. And he's very good on that and very good on the welfare of his men. You know, his combat experience is extensive and that puts him in a. With him and Collins, you know, he's in a very, very small band of people that have seen service throughout the globe. And I think that puts him on a different pedestal, to be perfectly honest. You know, I think that makes him pretty good.
- [16:29]
Al Murray
Okay, but the question is, does that make him better or worse than our next candidate? Who after the break, ladies and gentlemen, we will be coming to talk about.
- [16:39]
James Holland
Oh, well, it's time to do it. We gotta talk about Georgie, we gotta talk about George.
- [16:44]
Al Murray
We'll see you after the break for George S. Patton, who we are going to cant through, which is what he'd appreciate. He wants things done quickly. See you in a moment.
- [16:54]
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- [17:26]
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- [18:23]
Al Murray
Welcome back to we have ways of making you talk. Best in The West Part 2.5. I don't know. Look, it's.
- [18:29]
James Holland
Yeah, whatever. It doesn't matter. Second part. Okay, I. I don't think he would appreciate the cantering through. I think he wants to spend lots of time on him.
- [18:36]
Al Murray
He wants lingering consideration. General George S. Patton, I think we don't really need to say much about. Patton is someone. If you've heard about the Second World War, then you've heard of him, right? It's. It's kind of that it's a movie about him. Exactly. As JRR producer says, be wary of any man who designs his own uniform.
- [18:55]
James Holland
Except Alexander in his hat.
- [18:59]
Al Murray
Every rule has its exception, Jim, and you have just found it.
- [19:03]
James Holland
But also, he's older than most. You know, he's 1885. You know, he graduates from West Point in 1909. So he's a little bit older, but let's face it, he's seen action in Mexico. He's been in the First World War. He's been there, done it, North Africa, you know, he's a man of destiny. He slaps a guy at the end of a Sicilian campaign, having done really well. And we have also said that he's not just a cut and thruster. He's a very, very good operational commander. And actually it's his operational brilliance, I think, that makes him really, really stand out.
- [19:29]
Al Murray
You can't do cut and thrust if you're not operationally sound. It's impossible. You end up off balance, you end up running into trouble. And it's the sort of. When people talk about German cut and thrust, you know, Guderian said, logistics is the ball and chain of armoured warfare. George Patton might say that to a journalist, but he wouldn't believe it for a moment. When Patton's talking about, we'll improvise this, but he's not improvising at all. He's there' public face. He presents the guy pissing off the.
- [19:55]
James Holland
Bridge at Remigan or whatever.
- [19:56]
Al Murray
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, the general with the shiny helmet. Better way of putting it. You know, he's basically, he's presenting that, but under the internally, in terms of how he's running his armies, how he's running his staff. It's all about getting the dead right operationally. And I think. I think one of the things we talked about is over the years is how quickly he learns as well. It's one of the interesting things about Patton.
- [20:16]
James Holland
Well, yes, because he's not. He's certainly not the finished product. In Tunisia, for example, Alexander keeps him on a very tight leash and kind of changes his orders six times to him in just over a month, which is absolutely the right thing to do because he knows he's a firebrand and he's worried that he's going to get ahead of himself. And he learns and he absorbs those lessons. And the operational battle he fights in Sicily, when he kind of sweeps westwards, which is an easy battle in terms of the combat, but a difficult battle in terms of operational movement, is really, really impressive. And also, he's an incredibly good, useful learning tool for all those troops that are involved in that. And don't forget, you know, some of the subordinate commanders there are people like Bradley and others.
- [20:56]
Al Murray
One of the things that's very strange, though, once the war fighting ends, and this happens to a lot of big general protagonists in the Second World War, once the fighting ends, he doesn't really know what to do with himself. And he's given the job of being military governor of Bavaria by Ike, which is a rotten appointment, really. He doesn't agree with denazification. He wants war with the Russians. He says, you know, what we ought to do is be getting on with killing Russians and all this sort of thing. And he's openly anti Semitic.
- [21:20]
James Holland
I mean, really, really badly. I mean, you know, he doesn't even hide it. You know, he refers to them as the stinking mass of humanity, as locusts. And at one point, he even calls Jews lower than animals. You know, refuses to have Jewish captains. Eisenhower is really shocked by this. You know, he's known Patton a long time. He's resuscitated his career a number of times. You know, having sacked him after Sicily, don't forget he's sacked. You know, there's a reason why he's not an Army Group commander. He's an army commander, and he doesn't get any higher than that. And he relieves him of his command of military governorship and of the command of the 3rd army in October 1945 because of this.
- [21:59]
Al Murray
Yeah. Yeah.
- [21:59]
James Holland
And, you know, it doesn't matter how cut and frost he is and how much charisma he's got and how Brilliant. He is. As an operational commander and tactical commander. That is a big stain. Yeah, you just don't behave like that. You know, Monty can be abrasive and tricky and cussed, but he doesn't talk like that.
- [22:17]
Al Murray
No, he doesn't.
- [22:18]
James Holland
It's disgusting. And it was disgusting at the time.
- [22:21]
Al Murray
Go vote for someone else. Therefore, is what Jim's trying to say to you on our Patreon next, General Matt Ridgway, and we talked about Jim Gavin earlier as a sort of airborne pioneer. This is. Ridgeway is one of the people who also spots airborne as an opportunity and gravitates towards it and is tangled up in the sort of airborne shenanigans of the Second World War.
- [22:41]
James Holland
And Ridgway and Jay Mack absolutely loves him. John McManus loves this guy.
- [22:45]
Al Murray
He's a really impressive character, though. Really, really impressive character. He's at West Point in 1917 in this accelerated class. He's born in 1895. His dad's a soldier, Tellerman, a gunner. And so he knows the Army. He's grown up on army postings and doesn't see combat in the First World War, but goes to China and Nicaragua. That's how we say it now, isn't he? He serves in the 15th Infantry Regiment, stay there from 1925 to 1927. So he's, you know, he's been around the block Commander, General Staff school, Army War College, 35, 37, respectively. It goes into the War Department. He's an instructor at West Point.
- [23:22]
James Holland
He's also, see, he, he's also kind of, you know, the classic American, isn't. He's sort of square jawed and kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Looks tough and looks like, you know, he's an amazing sportsman. And if you looked at him, you would, you would know it couldn't be any other way.
- [23:36]
Al Murray
I mean, there's, there's lots and lots of images of him sort of staring into the middle distance looking sort of decisive and, and, yeah, and he's got.
- [23:43]
James Holland
Sort of two lines either side of his, either side of his mouth. And his jaw is about as square as a breeze block. And, you know.
- [23:50]
Al Murray
That's right. Yeah. And they're, you know, there's a Life magazine cover. You know, there he is.
- [23:55]
James Holland
He looks like an American general in a way that no Brit ever could.
- [24:00]
Al Murray
Exactly. Right. There's great pictures of him with sort of field dressing on his, on his jump on, on his webbing, on his jumpsuit. And, you know, but he's so integral. He's integral to the U.S. army's 1st Airborne, which is 82nd Airborne. And we talked about how Gavin's involved in writing the manual. It's Ridgeway, who is, who takes 82nd Infantry Division from Bradley. I mean, this thing, all these people tangled up together and creates the US 82nd Airborne. And it's all about, you know, physical being fit, unit cohesion, small dispersed combat teams, all this sort of stuff. Does he learn to parachute? I can't remember. He's always arrived by glider, I think. He does learn to parachute, doesn't he?
- [24:39]
James Holland
Yeah, no, he does learn to ride.
- [24:41]
Al Murray
He's there doing the stuff that airborne commanders have to do, where he's grabbing them in husky, he's grabbing together the guys he can find, scattered landings, all this sort of thing. He's very, very good at being that counter attacking, aggressive airborne officer and running those sort of operations. And then again, avalanche, they drop again. 504th Parachute infantry are dropped in daylight. It's the hallmark of his style that people are aggressive, they're fit, they're tough as nails, they're salty and all that sort of thing. And this the sort of trademark of the fighting that US 82nd Airborne engage in. And then because they've been so successful, he is sent upstairs after Normandy, isn't he, to command 18 Airborne Corps, which is basically 82nd, 101st Airborne. They're part of 1st Allied Airborne army for Market Garden. It's quite interesting because he turns up, doesn't he, Ridgeway? He shows up and comes in and tries to sort of coordinate the British and the airborne people during Market Garden. And he's, you know, successful in that. I always think during Market Garden, he feels a bit like a, like a spare prick. You've got the generals on the ground who are doing what they can to run the battle. And he sort of turns up wanting. Wanting to get his thumbprints on a victory, perhaps, maybe a bit. What he really wants to be doing is running one of these divisions, you know, and then of course, he's away for the Ardennes, isn't he, and has to return from a conference.
- [26:09]
James Holland
Yep, yep. But hurry's back. He gets there in time, but he's, he's not there at the crucial bit, obviously, because that's when Gavin takes over from. From him.
- [26:16]
Al Murray
That's right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that both airborne divisions are deployed again, you know, 101st, as we know, Bastogne on their own without anyone else. And us 82nd in the Western side of things in the Bulge battle. He's one of these people It's a bit of a shame he's promoted in a way, because he's just such a fantastic divisional commander. He's just brilliant at it.
- [26:37]
James Holland
Yeah, but I still think he's good when he's 18 airborne corps. I still think he has an ability to influence stuff because people, people listen to him. You know, when he enters a room, people stand up. You know, he has this incredible sort of presence. Everyone knows, you know, you know, he's always carrying a carbine and grenades in his belt. You know, he's always at the front line. You know, there's never, you know, he's never shirking the. He's a very visible commander. He's a true pioneer because he is integrating airborne. He's developing airborne operations. I mean, so is Gavin, but he's senior to Gavin. So he's integrating airborne operations and he's also making them work with more conventional forces. And I think that makes him stand out. And then, of course, you know, he's theater commander in Korea later on.
- [27:20]
Al Murray
Yeah, well, after MacArthur's fired, isn't he? I mean, that's the thing. Takes over, right. General Bill Simpson. Jim.
- [27:27]
James Holland
Yeah. Big fan of this guy. I'm really, really, really big fan. Tall, thin, amazing coalition general. Spends a lot of time serving under Montgomery. Born in 1888, graduates from West Point 1909. So he's a little bit, you know, he's a little bit older. He has served in the First World War, 33rd Division, takes part in the Merser gone offensive, gets wounded, Distinguished Service Cross. You know, these are all big ticks, all the staff appoint, you know, staff schools and stuff and war college, does all that. He's brigadier general by October 1941. But, you know, he is training in the US for much of war, and it's not until September 1943 that he's given command of 12 Corps. 12 Corps initially based in the UK, preparing for Normandy. But then Simpson gets reassigned to command the newly formed U.S. 9th army before it even enters combat. So his first taste of kind of frontline combat since 1917 is in 1944 as an army commander. So it's a huge leap. Now, someone somewhere has seen huge potential because he does an absolutely superb job. He's one of the, for my money, in the Northwest Europe campaign, he is the top dollar U.S. army commander. You know, he really is fantastic. Ninth army has a fantastic campaign. You know, the Scheldt, the Ruhr operations, the Battle of the Bulge. I mean, they're on the edge of that. The crossing of the Ruhr and the Rhine, the encirclement of the Ruhr. You know, this is all him. He is the first person, it's 9th army that gets the furthest. They're the first across the river Elbe. They're all primed to sort of go on and take, take Berlin. But, but Eisenhower calls him back. He is someone who, he's quiet, methodical as a person. Values planning and logistics over showmanship, doesn't seek media attention, which is why he's not really known. But he's, he has a fantastic command technique. He makes sure he, he speaks to his, his corps commanders every single day without failing. Is a brilliant coalition officer. You know, works incredibly well with Monty and also with, with Bradley. He's got very kind of, sort of even temperament. He's smart, he's self assured. He has kind of incredible presence. He's no kind of rollover by any stretch of the imagination. Tactically, he's very astute. Operationally, he's spot on. Strategically, he gets a big thing. So he is a, he is an absolutely complete army commander. You cannot fault him in any way whatsoever. Where he, where he loses points in this is that he's a late entry.
- [30:01]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [30:01]
James Holland
And that's the only thing that works against him because otherwise he's right up there as one of the very best.
- [30:06]
Al Murray
Okay. And then finally, General Lucien K. Truscott. I always think Lucien's one of those, one of those first names. You think? Yeah.
- [30:13]
James Holland
He's a very cool guy, though.
- [30:14]
Al Murray
He is cool. Born in January 1895, Chatfield, Texas. Raised in Oklahoma. Was a schoolteacher before joining the army.
- [30:23]
James Holland
Doesn't go to West Point.
- [30:24]
Al Murray
No. So that's something, isn't it?
- [30:25]
James Holland
Yeah. He's commissioned as a cavalry officer in 1917.
- [30:28]
Al Murray
So he's done border patrol on the Mexican border, cavalry postings in the Philippines. In the non Imperial American empire. It's the cavalry school at Fort Riley in Kansas. Horsemanship and discipline. But he's also, he knows Mechanization's coming. By 1940, he's a lieutenant colonel. By 1941, he's a colonel involved in mechanizing the U.S. army.
- [30:47]
James Holland
Yeah. And he's sent over to Britain. He's one of the first senior commanders to go over to Britain as a brigadier general. Over to the UK in 1942. And Marshall gives him the task of kind of creating a new equivalent to the British commandos. The role of actually commanding them is given to William o', Derby, but he's the guy who instigates it. And they become of course, the U.S. army Rangers. And he's the guy who, you know, he's attached to Combined Operations, then commanded by Mountbatten. So he learns from. Then again, he's very good on coalition warfare, all the rest of it. He commands the 3rd Infantry Division during Operation Torch. 3rd Infantry Division are, you know, to my money, they are. They are the daddy. They are the single Most impressive U.S. infantry Division in World War II. That full stop. You know, they're everywhere and they see the most action. They see more combat, days of combat action than. Than any other. And, you know, that's the home of Audie Murphy, the most decorated serviceman of World War II, et cetera, et cetera. And he. And he commands that until he takes over 6th Corps at Antio after, after Lucas is sacked. And he is just very, very good. So he sees action in North Africa, in Italy, he's Operation Dragoon, southern France. And when Clark becomes the army group Commander in Italy, he takes over command of U.S. 5th Army. So again, he is really, really tip top. And he is not as well known because he's not an army commander in northwest Europe. He's in Italy. He's very dynamic and thrusting. He's skilled in amphibious operations, mountain warfare, combined arms. He's pragmatic, innovative, and everyone loves him. You know, he has a reputation second to none, so he's right up there.
- [32:26]
Al Murray
But his problem kind of is he's fighting in the theater that people haven't got their eyes on quite as much. And so that's why maybe Lucian Truscott is in the top of people's list. Right. So there we are, the best in the West. American edition. Go to the Patreon, please, and vote. And we're going to just do our top one, two and wild card and.
- [32:44]
James Holland
A few famous that not included.
- [32:46]
Al Murray
Yes, it's quite difficult this.
- [32:47]
James Holland
Well, John Lucas, because he got sacked and he wasn't very good.
- [32:50]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [32:50]
James Holland
Hodges, because he was not the greatest. He's an army commander, but he's just not very good. Cota is absolutely brilliant, but just doesn't get beyond Divisional. Friedendahl was absolutely hopeless and got sacked. Quite right. General John Lee was a logistics man. Doesn't really count. Geoffrey Keyes did okay in Italy as.
- [33:06]
Al Murray
A. Jesus Christ himself, Lee. That was his reason, was himself.
- [33:08]
James Holland
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Jesus Christ himself, Lee Jeffrey Keys two core commander in Italy. You know, he. He's serviceable, but nothing, nothing. Other honorable mentions. Terry De La Mesa Allen, brilliant commander of the 1st Infantry Division before he sacked at the end of Sicily by Bradley actually, John Iron Micah Daniel takes over as 3rd Division commander. Charles Caller, who's really, really good, gets sacked for no reason. Do you remember after crossing the Rhine?
- [33:33]
Al Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [33:35]
James Holland
Leonard Garau, Girou Girau. Maxwell Taylor. You know, he's also pretty good, but.
- [33:41]
Al Murray
Who your top one two in your wild card.
- [33:43]
James Holland
Well, what are we going to do about Eisenhower?
- [33:45]
Al Murray
I think unfortunately we have to put him aside because he's too elevated. Because he's too elevated.
- [33:50]
James Holland
This is battlefield commanders really is.
- [33:52]
Al Murray
We want the acridenture cordite. Jim the rat tat tat the bar. So I think I'm gonna go. This is really difficult, isn't it? I like Troy Middleton and I like Jim Gavin. And then my wild card would be. Oh fuck. My wild card would be Collins. There you go.
- [34:14]
James Holland
Okay, well obviously I'm gonna go for Clark. Yeah, I'm gonna go for Clark and I'm going to go for, I think Collins.
- [34:22]
Al Murray
Okay.
- [34:23]
James Holland
And my wild card. My wild card is also Gavin. I mean J. Mac's going to be furious because it kind of should be Ridgeway. Really?
- [34:31]
Al Murray
Yeah, exactly.
- [34:31]
James Holland
No. Okay, I'm gonna change it. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. No, I'm not. I'm gonna stick with that. I'm gonna go Clark Collins, Gavin.
- [34:38]
Al Murray
You see, these are the agonies. What you're hearing here is the sheer weight of responsibilities. We settle this argument once for all. Isn't that right, Jim?
- [34:43]
James Holland
Yeah, it is. The only reason I've taken away from Ridgeway is because he loses that influence in the second half of, you know, 1944 into 1945. You know, he's less of a role, I would say.
- [34:54]
Al Murray
Okay, well, there we go, ladies and gentlemen, that's Best of the west us. Our two editions go to the Patreon vote thing and we will be returning bits of Germans in our next episode. And of course the best way to come to a conclusion of this argument is to come to we have ways fest 12th, 14th of September where you can see finally this put to bed so no one need ever talk about it ever again. Isn't that right, Jim?
- [35:17]
James Holland
Exactly. No one needs to ever argue about it ever more. We can just move.
- [35:21]
Al Murray
It's a public service. It's a public service we're performing here. We're just trying to help.
- [35:25]
James Holland
But I've got to say I think, I think the, the American decisions on the Americans is much harder because I think it's a much tighter package.
- [35:31]
Al Murray
Exactly. We'll see you all soon. Thanks for listening. Cheerio.
- [35:34]
James Holland
Cheerio.
- [35:40]
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