WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk

Episode: The Case Against General Patton

Hosts: Al Murray & James Holland

Date: September 3, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Al Murray and James Holland continue their ongoing quest to identify the “Best of the West” when it comes to American generals of World War II. Centering on the contentious legacy of General George S. Patton, the hosts weigh his strengths and major failings, before moving through a who’s-who of lesser-known but critically important US commanders. Throughout, their signature blend of humor and expert analysis keeps the discussion lively, accessible, and deeply informative.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Challenge of Comparing Generals

• Main Theme: Comparing generals is inherently difficult because of differing roles, battlefronts, and responsibilities.
• James observes, “You compare an army group commander to an armored division commander... there are big differences. And in a way, George C. Marshall sits above the fray almost literally, doesn't he?” (03:36)

2. George C. Marshall: The Architect

• Marshall’s Background: Chief of Staff from 1939-1945; pivotal in expanding and modernizing the US Army.
• Strategic Influence: Integral in spotting and promoting key leaders like Eisenhower and Bradley.
• “He is without question the architect of U.S. grand strategy...” – James (05:19)
• Noted for exceptional calm, organizational brilliance, and political acumen.
• Exclusion from "Battlefield Commanders”: Despite being a “titanic great man,” Marshall is excluded from the hosts' shortlist because of his more political, rather than direct battlefield, role. (06:48)

3. Assessing Forgotten Commanders

Troy Middleton

• Background: Rose from private; known for adaptability and tactical judgment.
• Key Role: Orchestrated the defense of Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge.
• “I don't give a damn about his knees. I want his head and his heart, and I'll take him into battle in a litter if we have to.” – Eisenhower on Middleton (09:43)
• Middleton’s understated, decisive nature earns high praise: “He's not a show pony, but he's kind of decisive, isn't he? He's clearly got great tactical judgment...” – James (12:49)

Alexander Patch

• Pacific and Europe: Served in Guadalcanal (Pacific) and later led in Southern France.
• Coalition Warfare: Skilled at integrating multinational forces, including French colonial troops.
• “He's another one of the few American generals that has to do proper coalition warfare.” – James (15:45)

4. General George S. Patton: Bold, Brilliant, Flawed

Early Life & Career

• Older Generation: Born in 1885, saw action in Mexico and WWI.
• Image and Myth: Instantly recognizable, subject of films, famous for flamboyance.
• “Be wary of any man who designs his own uniform.” – JRR producer, quoted by Al (18:55)
• Known for operational brilliance and “cut and thrust” maneuver tactics, but always rooted in meticulous planning.

Operational Achievements

• Tunisia, Sicily, France: Learned quickly, adapted, impressed superiors with both speed and soundness.
• “He’s a very, very good operational commander. And actually, it’s his operational brilliance… that makes him really, really stand out.” – James (19:29)
• Leadership Style: Presented as impulsive and bold, but behind the facade lay exacting control and planning.

Personal and Ethical Failings

• Postwar Conduct: Alienated from political realities; opposed denazification, openly expressed antisemitism.
• “He doesn’t agree with denazification. He wants war with the Russians... He's openly antisemitic.” – Al (21:20)
• “It doesn't matter how cut and frost he is and how much charisma he's got... That is a big stain. You just don’t behave like that.” – James (21:59)

5. Other Noteworthy US Generals

Matthew Ridgway

• Airborne Pioneer: Vital in developing and commanding 82nd Airborne; famed for direct leadership and toughness.
• Nicknamed for his presence: “He's always carrying a carbine and grenades in his belt. You know, he's always at the front line.” – James (26:36)

William Simpson

• Coalition Champion: Led US 9th Army through complex operations; notably effective working with Montgomery.
• “He’s a brilliant coalition officer. Works incredibly well with Monty and also with Bradley. He’s got very even temperament... Tactically, he's very astute.” – James (29:29)

Lucian K. Truscott

• From Cavalry to Mechanization: Did not attend West Point, but instrumental in forming the US Army Rangers and commanding the 3rd Infantry Division.
• Praised for dynamism, innovativeness, and effective command in challenging Italian and southern French campaigns.
• “He is not as well known because he's not an army commander in northwest Europe.” – James (32:16)

6. The Elusive “Best” and the Pain of Exclusion

• Personal Lists: The hosts struggle to finalize their favorites, recognizing the difficult trade-offs and the overshadowing of lesser-known but outstanding leaders by the likes of Patton and Eisenhower.
• Humorous self-awareness: “These are the agonies. What you're hearing here is the sheer weight of responsibilities. We settle this argument once for all.” – Al (34:37)
• Decision: Eisenhower and Marshall set aside for being “above the fray”; focus remains on those with direct battlefield command.

Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “You compare an army group commander to an armored division commander... there are big differences. And in a way, George C. Marshall sits above the fray almost literally, doesn't he?” – James Holland (03:36)
• “He is without question the architect of U.S. grand strategy...” – James Holland (05:19)
• “I don't give a damn about his knees. I want his head and his heart, and I'll take him into battle in a litter if we have to.” – Eisenhower, quoted by Al Murray (09:43)
• “He's not a show pony, but he's kind of decisive, isn't he? He's clearly got great tactical judgment...” – James Holland (12:49)
• “Be wary of any man who designs his own uniform.” – JRR producer, quoted by Al Murray (18:55)
• “He’s a very, very good operational commander. And actually, it’s his operational brilliance… that makes him really, really stand out.” – James Holland (19:29)
• “He presents the guy pissing off the bridge at Remagen or whatever... but under the internally... it’s all about getting the dead right operationally.” – Al Murray (19:55)
• “It doesn't matter how cut and frost he is... That is a big stain. You just don’t behave like that.” – James Holland, on Patton’s antisemitism (21:59)
• “He is a brilliant coalition officer... Tactically, he's very astute. Operationally, he's spot on.” – James Holland (29:29)
• “These are the agonies. What you're hearing here is the sheer weight of responsibilities... Isn’t that right, Jim?” – Al Murray (34:37)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:03 | The “Best in the West” concept; apples and oranges problem | | 03:51 | George C. Marshall’s biography and impact | | 07:10 | Troy Middleton’s unique rise and battlefield legacy | | 11:51 | Middleton and the Battle of the Bulge | | 13:20 | Patch and coalition operations in the Pacific and Europe | | 18:23 | Patton’s myth, image, and operational leadership | | 21:20 | Patton’s ethical failings and ultimate downfall | | 22:41 | Matthew Ridgway and the rise of US Airborne | | 27:27 | William Simpson’s coalition command | | 30:13 | Lucian K. Truscott, US Army Rangers, Italian Campaign | | 32:44 | Final lists, honorable mentions, the agony of choice | | 34:37 | The challenge of reaching a verdict; call to action |

Memorable Moments and Tone

• Humor and Candor: The hosts keep the tone light even as they tackle serious analysis (“Lord Jimmyland joins us now…” 03:22), openly mock their own inability to agree, and deliver punchy takes on “forgotten” generals and overrated legends.
• Depth and Fairness: Both give Patton his operational and inspirational due, but refuse to whitewash his moral failures and lack of postwar adaptability.
• Engagement with Listeners: Repeatedly invite listener participation (“Go to the Patreon, please, and vote…” 32:26).

Conclusion

This episode provides a nuanced, entertaining, and expert breakdown of the case for and against General Patton as America’s top WWII commander—ultimately showing just how hard it is to rank such disparate and complex figures. The hosts give ample credit to lesser-known but formidable US generals, encouraging history buffs to look past the Hollywood myths and appreciate the full roster of leadership that shaped the Allied victory.

For a full, lively debate and additional perspectives, join their Patreon and watch for the upcoming wrap-up at We Have Ways Fest!