The Visionaries: A Global War (Part 4)

Summary

WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk

Episode: The Visionaries: A Global War (Part 4)
Release Date: April 29, 2026
Hosts: Al Murray & James Holland

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Overview

In this fourth installment of "The Visionaries" series, hosts Al Murray and James Holland examine the pivotal shifts in US involvement during World War II under Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR) and his succession by Harry S. Truman. The episode explores FDR’s evolving leadership, the embedding of moral imperatives into US foreign policy, the economic and political machinations behind Lend-Lease, and the global ramifications as the US transitions from isolationism to committed participant in a world war. With characteristic insight, wit, and accessible storytelling, Al and James analyze the critical events of 1941—America’s deepening engagement, Hitler's strategic missteps, and Churchill’s dilemma as the Atlantic Charter signals a new world order.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. FDR’s Four Freedoms and Moral Framing of the War

• FDR’s foundational speech (01:53–04:33, 12:00):

  • Quoting FDR’s 6 January 1941 address, Al and James highlight his framing of the conflict as a fight for four universal freedoms—speech, worship, freedom from want, and freedom from fear—as the moral antithesis to fascist tyranny.
  • Notable Quote:

    “That kind of world is the very antithesis of the so-called new order of tyranny which the dictators seek to create with the crash of a bomb... Freedom means the supremacy of human rights.” — FDR (01:53)

• Analysis:

  • FDR's rhetoric is identified as not just pragmatic policy, but a deliberate, visionary laying of the groundwork for the postwar world order.
  • James Holland:

    “He is adding a moral component to his pragmatism of his vision, not only for how they're going to win the Second World War, but also the peace that follows...” (04:56)

2. America’s Shift from Isolationism to Global Leadership

• Background

  • FDR inherits an isolationist America (06:21–06:57). Initially elected on a New Deal platform, his journey toward internationalism is underlined.
  • James Holland:

    “Here he's recognizing that America is the richest nation in the world...it has a global role to play.” (06:39)

• Gradual Involvement

  • Despite technical neutrality, the US is already shaping the balance through economic and material support to Britain, shifting the “priority” of war contracts and aligning moral, economic, and strategic interests (05:13–07:58).

3. The Genesis and Political Craft of Lend-Lease

• Introduction of Lend-Lease

  • FDR's “garden hose” metaphor is quoted (08:06–08:28):

    “If he can take my garden hose and connect it up to his hydrant, I may be able to help put out his fire... You just hand it over and sort it out later.” — FDR (08:06)

• Political Maneuvering

  • The hosts emphasize FDR’s masterful public-first approach—using media to win over the public before Congress and deploying "fireside chats" to explain complex policy simply and personally (09:41–11:45).
  • Al Murray:

    “Lend Lease is... the thing that wins the war [industrially], but... it's sneaky, this thing of laying out his argument before going to Congress...” (08:31)

  • James Holland:

    “It’s brilliant. It’s showing, showing extreme Machiavellian political acumen.” (09:22)

• Impact

  • Lend-Lease is presented as a “game changer,” unifying diverse political and business factions behind the war effort, though the hosts note its realpolitik underpinnings—economic gains for the US, leverage over Britain, and eventual extension to the Soviet Union (12:00–13:46).

4. Britain’s Desperate Position and the Military Reality

• Context for Aid

  • Britain, beset by the Blitz and with national morale at risk, is in dire need of material support. FDR is unwilling to risk arming a "losing side" (16:20–17:38).

• Atlantic Theater Significance

  • The battle to keep Atlantic convoys functioning is framed as crucial—America wants reassurance that supplies won't be sunk (16:45).
  • Once the Kriegsmarine is contained at Brest, it’s seen as a turning point: Britain can “cope on the sea,” but is reliant on American support for the land war (17:03–17:38).

5. Realpolitik—Not Altruism

• US Leverage
  • US aid is made contingent on Britain running out of cash—aid is driven by economic/political leverage as much as moral principle (18:28–19:31).
  • British imperial preference is a challenge: American policies increasingly undermine Britain’s global status (19:00–19:31).
  • Al Murray:

    “It's not altruistic. And I think you can read him in lots of different ways.” (19:31)

6. The Atlantic Charter—A Blueprint for Postwar Order

• Drafting and Content

  • Churchill and FDR agree on broad principles for a postwar world—no territorial aggrandizement, self-determination, economic cooperation, freedom from want and fear, and disarmament (22:48–24:47).
  • The Charter is both realpolitik and idealism; it forces Britain to confront the end of empire even as it preserves hope amid crisis.
  • James Holland:

    “It’s a blueprint for future peace. Yeah. And a future world order.” (24:47)

• Tension and Buy-in

  • Churchill, returning to parliament, faces a restive Conservative party. The Charter's anti-imperial tenets, especially on trade and self-determination, are controversial back home (22:38–23:56).
  • Al Murray:

    “Winston Churchill doesn't want to be the man who presides over the funeral of the British Empire...” (26:13)

7. America’s Inscrutable Visionary—FDR’s Political Genius

• Open-Ended Concepts
  • FDR’s knack for coining flexible terms—“good neighbor,” “unconditional surrender”—grants him “colossal political flexibility” (14:30–14:48).
  • Al Murray:

    “He’s able to formulate these things and boil them down...that allow him colossal political flexibility, as we’re about to see.” (14:48)

8. The Strategic Picture: Hitler’s Blunders and Operation Barbarossa

• Axis Miscalculations

  • The conversation shifts to Germany’s overreach in the Soviet Union. Hitler’s inability to sustain a coherent strategy versus FDR’s “visionary” planning is underlined (30:42–41:13).
  • James Holland:

    “Hitler ... can only look at [the war] through [his own] prism ... doesn't have that geopolitical understanding. At the bottom, a failed artist and a lance corporal from the First World War...” (31:21–31:33)

• Barbarossa’s Failure

  • The hosts detail the scale and logistical nightmares of the Eastern Front—half a million horses, incompatible railways, crumbling morale, and Hitler’s strategic vacillation (31:39–41:40).
  • Al Murray:

    “Changing a strategy like this shows you haven’t got one.” (41:07)

• Soviet Resilience

  • The Soviet capacity to replace losses, outproduce the Germans, and absorb “blows” is framed as decisive (38:08–38:27, 44:50–45:28).
  • James Holland:

    “5 million men are called up in the, in the, in the three months of Barbarossa. 5 million. ...80 new divisions...” (38:13–38:22)

9. The Turning Point: Pearl Harbor and Entering Total War

• America Enters the War

  • The “unforced error” of Hitler declaring war on the US is discussed. Both Hitler and Churchill react with confidence—but “one's right and one's wrong” (46:02–50:08).
  • James Holland:

    “Churchill goes, oh, great, we're going to win after all. And Hitler goes, oh, great, we're going to win after all. But one's right and one's wrong.” (49:53–50:08)

• Industrial Might

  • By late 1941, mass mobilization is already underway due to FDR’s foresight—US naval and air production dwarfs Axis capabilities (48:30–49:30).
  • James Holland:

    “America is producing 344 warships. ... There’s been a lot going on before [joining the war], as we've shown…” (48:30–49:30)

10. Conclusion: A World Remade

• “Everyone’s in the war now”
  • The episode closes with reflection on the sheer scale of the conflict—Germany’s war with all major imperiums, the consequences for the British Empire, and the inexorable ascent of the US as global power (47:34–50:56).
  • Al Murray:

    “It's taken on the three biggest imperiums in the world. ... Biggest empire the world has ever known...the biggest economy...an empire with a ruthless streak in management.” (47:34–48:06)

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• FDR’s Four Freedoms Speech

  "Freedom means the supremacy of human rights. And everywhere our support goes to those who struggle to gain those rights or keep them.” — FDR (01:53)

• Lend-Lease Analogy

  “Suppose my neighbor's home catches fire and I have a length of garden hose... You just hand it over and sort it out later.” — FDR (08:06)

• “Arsenal of Democracy”

  “We must be the great arsenal of democracy.” — FDR (11:41)

• On Churchill Signing the Atlantic Charter

  “Winston Churchill doesn’t want to be the man who presides over the funeral of the British Empire…” — Al Murray (26:13)

• On Hitler’s Strategic Failures

  “Changing a strategy like this shows you haven't got one.” — Al Murray (41:07)

• On World Entering Total War

  “Everyone’s in the war now. Germany now has three main enemies. ... The biggest empire the world has ever known. ...the biggest economy...” — Al Murray (47:34–48:06)

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Segment Timestamps

• 01:53–04:33: FDR’s Four Freedoms and moral argument for US involvement
• 08:06–09:00: Lend-Lease “garden hose” and American public messaging
• 11:41–11:45: “Arsenal of Democracy” phrase and its significance
• 22:47–24:47: Breakdown of the eight provisions of the Atlantic Charter
• 30:42–41:13: German errors and Operation Barbarossa’s failure
• 44:50–45:28: Soviet resilience and counterattack
• 46:02–50:08: Pearl Harbor, Hitler’s strategic mistake, global dimensions
• 48:30–49:30: American industrial buildup in context

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Tone & Style

Al and James blend expert historical analysis with accessible language, humor, and a slightly irreverent tone. The narrative flows with lively banter—mock-summoning FDR to deliver famous lines, gently poking at the grandiloquence of statesmen, and drawing character contrasts between Roosevelt, Churchill, and Hitler. Their conversational but informed style makes complex geopolitics and strategic decision-making relatable and engaging.

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For Further Reference

• Next Episode: “The Visionaries: Planning for Peace”—FDR’s longer-term vision for the postwar settlement
• Recommended Read: The Visionaries by James Holland

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Summary prepared to guide both new and returning listeners through the episode’s essential themes, timelines, and memorable moments.

Transcript

[Al Murray]

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[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

In the future days which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms. The first is freedom of speech and expression everywhere in the world. The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way everywhere in the world. The third is freedom from want, which translated into world terms means economic understandings which will secure every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants everywhere in the world. The fourth is freedom from fear, which translated into world terms means a worldwide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbour anywhere in the world. That is no vision of a distant millennium. It is a definite basis for a kind of world attainable in our own time and generation. That kind of world is the very antithesis of the so called new order of tyranny which the dictators seek to create with the crash of a bomb. To that new order, we oppose the greater conception, the moral order. A good society is able to face schemes of world domination and foreign revolutions alike without fear. Since the beginning of our American history, we have been engaged in change, in a perpetual, peaceful revolution, a revolution which goes on steadily, quietly adjusting itself to changing conditions without the concentration camp or the quicklime in the ditch. The world order which we seek is the cooperation of free countries working together in a friendly, civilized society. This nation has placed its destiny in the hands and heads and hearts of its millions of free men and women and its faith in freedom under the guidance of God. Freedom means the supremacy of human rights. And everywhere our support goes to those who struggle to gain those rights or keep them. Our strength is our unity of purpose. To that high concept, there can be no end save victory.

[Al Murray]

Well, Jim, I mean, you got your jollies there. I don't know about anyone else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's.

[James Holland]

I mean, FDR was in the room, right?

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Well, I mean, it wasn't just in the room.

[James Holland]

He'd taken over my soul.

[Al Murray]

When did he make that speech, James?

[James Holland]

He made that in early January, 1941. And I think it's one of the most speeches that he ever made in his long political career.

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

And it is the point at which

[James Holland]

he is adding a moral component to his pragmatism of his vision, not only for how they're going to win the Second World War, but also the peace that follows and the world order that is going to follow in the democratic West.

[Al Murray]

Okay, well, welcome to. We have ways of making you talk with me. I'm Murray and James Holland, your Second World War podcast for all your Second World War needs. And this is part four of the Visionaries, in which we look at FDR and Harry S. Truman, his successor. And this is. We're calling this a global war, this episode, because America is as. As is made clear from that speech, America is. Is all. But all apart from the actual shooting, now completely involved in the war, as you've outlined this moral imperative being inserted into it, as well as the. We've had the economic imperative where, you know, big, juicy weapons contracts from the French government. Because, after all, although France is out of the war, there are still contracts British have taken on, of course. Right. And the Americans are quite happy for those contracts to. To carry on. The Americans are also rolling out their own procurement, and there's going to, you know, one of the sort of complications that comes is who Gets priority. America aren't in the war, so why would they get priority in these contracts? So there's those complications to shake themselves down. But this is about America pinning its moral colors to the mast in its involvement in the global crisis.

[James Holland]

Well, and it's also America going truly internationalist. Yeah. So if you think, you know, we talked in the early episodes about Roosevelt taking over from Herbert Hoover in the election in 1932, and he's inaugurated in March 1933, just six weeks after Adolf Hitler becomes chancellor. And, you know, he gets in on an isolationist ticket. It's all the New Deal.

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

And it's.

[James Holland]

And it's. And it's all about how. How we can sor. The internal domestic mess from the fallout of the Wall street crash and the Smoot Hawley Tariff Act. But here he's recognizing that America is the richest nation in the world. It's the most powerful nation in the world, and so therefore it has a global role to play.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

It is no longer, you know, isolation has been kicked into the long grass. Even though at this stage, at the beginning of 1941, America is not, strictly speaking, in the war at all. It is still, you know, neutral and at peace.

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

But he's putting his colors to the

[James Holland]

mast in a very, very strong.

[Al Murray]

It's only arming one side, though, or arms. Or supplying arms to one side. It's not. It's not actively arming the British, but. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[James Holland]

I mean, you know, he's about to actively arm the British. Yeah. This is the culmination of what I think are three really, really important speeches, stroke statements. This is the seed of what becomes known as len lease. And he's really, really clever because Congress is in recess in December because it's Christmas holidays. And what he wants to do is sell this to the public first to ensure that it gets through Congress. So he. He just drops it into the conversation during a press briefing at the White House on, I think it's the 17th. Yes, the 17th of December, 1940. And this is where he comes up

[Al Murray]

with the famous, well, let's summon him once more from the. From the other world. Here he comes. FDR is upon us.

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

Let me give you an illustration. Suppose my neighbor's home catches fire and I have a length of garden hose

[James Holland]

four or 500ft away.

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

If he can take my garden hose and connect it up to his hydrant, I may be able to help put out his fire. Now what do I do? I don't say to him before that Operation Neighbor My garden hose cost me $15. You have to pay me $15 for it.

[James Holland]

No, you just hand it over and sort it out later.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so this is basically, I mean Lend Lease is. I think if you're looking at the war from the sort of economic industrial point of view as a war of industries, this is the thing that wins the war. But I think what's interesting about this is the Soviets are not in his view at this point and yet when the moment comes he's going to roll this out to the Soviets as well.

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

Well, of course, because at this point

[James Holland]

the Soviets are still in confuse with the Nazis.

[Al Murray]

The Nazis allies actually, they're allies, let's make no bones about this. But basically it's going to be. They're going to lend American ships, guns and planes and then lend and after the war what's left of them will be given back or replaced. And, and I think it is, it is sneaky, this thing of laying out his argument before going to Congress because he doesn't want.

[James Holland]

It's really sneaky. It's brilliant. It's showing, showing extreme Machiavellian political acumen.

[Al Murray]

I would say possibly unconstitutional, but there we are.

[James Holland]

Yeah, but you know, anyway, but if you're going to be unconstitutional, do it for the moral good, not for personal gain. That's my point.

[Al Murray]

And then after, after Christmas. So this is his, this is his Advent treat.

[James Holland]

Yes, this is his Far side chats.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, Exactly. So on the 29th of December. So in that classic period where people are thinking quite. I'm still stuffed. It's boring, isn't it? Will it never be New Year's eve? So on the 29th of December, he. Let's summon him once again.

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

The experience of the past two years has proven beyond doubt that no nation can appease the Nazis. No man can tame a tiger into

[James Holland]

a kitten by stroking it.

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

There can be no appeasement with ruthlessness. There can be no reasoning with an incendiary bomb. We know now that a nation can have peace with the Nazis at the

[James Holland]

price of total surrender. And this, this. So, so what he's doing is he's so the press conference of 17 December and then his fireside chat. And for those you remember, we talked about this, this mastery of the raging media in the 1930s, which Hitler does very well as well, and Goebbels and so on in Nazi Germany. But Roosevelt is also a master of this and what he adopts, which no one has ever done before him in America is have this cozy, kind of folksy. It's just you and I, we're chatting together in a room. I'm explaining stuff in kind of sort of plain language. I'm not using fancy acronyms and political jargon and business jargon. I'm just talking to you like a fellow American citizen. And this is what he does. So he paves the way for Lend Lease. What's really interesting is he does the more technical bit in the informal press conference and the cosy fireside chat and then does the high morals when he does his State of the Nation address to Congress on 6 January 1941, which was the opening speech that we started this episode with. And I think that's really, really interesting that he does it in that order. And of course, in this fireside chat, it is the line where he says, if we want America to stay out of the war, which we, which I'm absolutely not going to do, but I'm saying we are, then we must harness our industrial power to assist the Allies. And what we can do is we can create lots of jobs and money in America will make us rich on

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

it, but we must be the great arsenal of democracy.

[James Holland]

So that's when he says those immortal lines. That phrase emerges on that speech, that fireside chat, 29 December 1940.

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

And I think the three speeches together

[James Holland]

are really, really important.

[Al Murray]

But, but it also shows though that his, his approach, his approach is, is entirely cross party because he's appealing to the different sectors. He's appealing to American business, make no mistake. Yeah, people are going to get rich off this and, and you know, big

[James Holland]

business, which would be vilified, which have

[Al Murray]

been vilified off the first. And he, he, he's, he's not, he's, he's not, he knows he's got to do that. He knows he's got to present a moral case and he's got to present a political case. Right. And the fact that he's addressing all three rather than just going, hey, we're all going to get rich, everybody, don't worry about it. He's not doing that. He's not just saying it's moral high purpose. It's the fact, it's the fact it's

[James Holland]

a multiple, it's a combination.

[Al Murray]

It's literally a combination. So it can only land as a cross party appeal. And each of the factions in American politics that have grown in the interwar period are being, basically being headed off by, by each of these components.

[James Holland]

But that Far side chat of 29 December 75% of the American population hear it.

[Al Murray]

I mean it's fascinating isn't it? Because it's the boom of the radio age. And 20 years previously an American president wouldn't have been able to do that. And 10 years previously even an American president wouldn't be able to do that. And so it's, the technology is perfectly in line with the way he wants to deliver the message and that he's smart enough to then to lean into that and exploit it I think is a market, I mean he's, his political skill set is, is and a lot of it. Well, but a lot of it. If you've been in for two terms you work out what you're going to need to do and a big part of this is, is you know, if you get into a third term and you aren't, people aren't able to derail you or knock you off course, you can develop all this stuff that actually, you know, he has at his disposal when he needs it.

[James Holland]

Yep. So you've had, you've had that, you've had the kind of the Dangle of Lend Lease in the, in the press conference in the middle of December, then you have the Fireside Chat, then you have the State of the Nation address. What's really interesting is that State of the Nation address was written by him, he wrote it himself. And one of his aides that says, says, you know this is all well

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

and good but, but, but all the

[James Holland]

people of Arkansas going to care about what, what happens in, about the Javans

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

in Java for example.

[James Holland]

And FDR replies I'm afraid they'll have to be.

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

The world is getting so small that even the people in Java are getting

[James Holland]

to be our neighbors now. So he's gone from that good neighbour policy with which he opens his inaugural address in March 1933 to this global position.

[Al Murray]

One of the things FDR is really, really good at is coming up with concepts that are open ended essentially. We'll sweat the details later. Yeah, we're a good neighbor. Well what's a neighbor? Define a neighbor. We're just good neighbors. All right. And then he can, he can extend it to Java, you know, unconditional gives

[James Holland]

him political tactical flexibility.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Unconditional surrender. That can mean literally anything. Right? Because you surrender and then we'll sort, we'll sort the politics data, we'll sort the conditions later. And I think that this is, this is a sort of a mark of his political genius. His skill set across the board is that he's Able to. He's able to formulate these things and boil them down. I mean, boil them down to very, very simple things that allow him colossal political flexibility, as we're about to see. He's going to take a country that's isolationist into the Second World War. And obviously he's helped by his opponents. What happens in politics is your, you know, don't interrupt your enemies while they're making a mistake is a big. A big thing that FDR is aware of as well. But I think, you know, Lend Lease is then drafted on the 7th of January 1941. And then. And obviously Churchill's thinking, well, that's a win, a plain straight win for him. And you've got the. Although there's the Blitz going on, and I think we can't underestimate the moral effect of the Blitz on morale at home in Britain. We cannot underestimate the shock that represents. The army's been soundly defeated in Northwest Europe, has had to, you know, the delivery of Dunkirk. You know, wars aren't won by evacuations. And then there seems to be no answer to. To the Blitz bombing. And it can happen anywhere. You don't know where it's going to happen. You don't know if. If it's you that's going to cop it tonight. But there are. There are reasons to be sort of not cheerful, but there are. There are sort of reasons to be hopeful from a British perspective.

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

There are.

[James Holland]

And particularly from a. From a point of view of America, because you don't want to be producing all these arms if they're then going to be sunk halfway across the Atlantic. You don't want to be. I'm supporting a losing side because. Because if America's going to. Is going to bail out Britain in terms of material supplies, he needs to know that they're going to get there. If you're losing 50%. Yeah, that's a massive down.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

It's another layer of why the Atlantic battle is so important, why those early successes in, in the. In the spring of 1941 and then

[Al Murray]

the Kriegsmarine are contained at Brest for the Kriegsmarine basically throws in the towel in the Atlantic with its surface fleet and heads back for Germany.

[James Holland]

Exactly.

[Al Murray]

It's being contained and they never go into the Atlantic never ever again.

[James Holland]

And so that's a massive win for the British. And what it means, what it shows America, is that Britain can cope on the sea. It's doing all right on that point where it's struggling is on land. And that's where the Americans come in because they can provide lots of tanks and they can buy guns and they can provide lots of aircraft and that's where they can really materially help. So not only are they getting rich, but they're also. Lend leases is a game changer because they are providing that key of unlocking the supply chain for Britain in terms of the land campaign.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, and there is that. I can't remember if it's Anthony Eden that says it. I'd hate to be a general in this war. You have to wait two years for the stuff to turn up and then things work out. And that's basically the timetable we're looking at here, isn't it?

[James Holland]

They're quite ruthless though, the Americas at least. It's nothing's completely free by any stretch.

[Al Murray]

It's a, a real politic opportunity as well as, as well as a moral one. And that's what's so clever about Roosevelt's approach is you can, you, you, you know, he's offering, he's offering the same thing to everyone but for different reasons. And so they're all able that everyone can get invested in it. Lend lease is then passed by Congress in March, signed into law on the 11th of March. So it's passed by Congress, signed by the President. And obviously this stuff's got, got to come in, hasn't it? You know that the, the, that you've got to tool the factories in your.

[James Holland]

America says you're not getting lend lease until you've run out of cash. So you might be running out of cash, but you haven't run out of cash yet. So when you've run out of cash then come, then come knocking and there's also, there's all sorts of issues going on in America. There's all these labor strikes and things. Amazingly, there's more labor strikes In I think 1943 than, or 1942 than any other year in American history.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And British companies are disinvested. So for instance, there's the American Viscous Corporation which is an enormous British business and that has to be basically hand handed over to an American banking consultant

[James Holland]

literally for a kind of, you know, a gold sovereign.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. And there's, there's, there's a fair, there's a fair bit of that British bases and stuff and, and sort of, you know, because America isn't becoming a global empire, not really, but it's certainly a lot like, like looking like it a lot. And, and that Britain needs, Britain needs to be, you Know, imperial preference, after all, is a major challenge to the dollar. And the Americans want that, want that gone. And this is part of the process of chipping. Chipping away at it.

[James Holland]

So not entirely altruistic.

[Al Murray]

It's not altruistic. And I think you can read him in lots of different ways. And people do, don't they? They, you know, if you're a British imperialist, then he's an absolute villain. It's, it's well known that he's inscrutable. He's sphinx, like, no one know, no one knows really knows what FDR ever thinks.

[James Holland]

Really going on in that brain.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. Yeah.

[James Holland]

There is also an implication, I think, that, that America's interest, entry into the war is a matter of kind of when, not if they're lining up for it. They're also in, in the start of the year. Americans have come over. It's actually, it's what's his name, Admiral Gormley, isn't it, who comes over and conducts abc, talks about what's going to happen should hypothetically, America get in the war. You know, is it going to be Pacific first or is it going to be Germany first? Of course, you know, Japan isn't in the war at this point at all. So it is very much Germany first. And the ABC1 agreement, which is signed in late March, clarifies between US and Britain that if the US enters a war, the priority is going to be to defeat Germany as opposed to any future conflict with Japan. Of course, that might change, they might change their mind, but that is the understanding in March. So that's another big tick for Britain, you know, swallows the pain of having to give up the viscose factory and industry and various places in the Caribbean and all the rest of it. And they also agree to help escort Atlantic convoys to Britain. So, you know, they. Roosevelt authorizes the creation of the Atlantic fleet, for example.

[Al Murray]

I mean, they're. But they're patrolling, you know, the Atlantic. The American Atlantic is the 26 longitude, just the west of Ireland. So.

[James Holland]

Yes, so they change, they change it because it was sort of 400 miles off the coast or something.

[Al Murray]

Now it's thousands of thousands and thousands of miles. Yeah. So. And the, and after all, a German sinking of American shipping is one of the provocations in the First World War. And so if you move, if you're moving basically your line of engagement that far east, you're saying to the Germans, you're going to have to behave. And in the summer we have Barbarossa, and as we intimated this is the moment where fdr, what's your neighbor? Well, your neighbor is anyone who's facing aggression from, from Germany.

[James Holland]

My enemy's enemy is my friend.

[Al Murray]

Exactly. You know, I would make a recommendation to the devil himself and all that.

[James Holland]

Right.

[Al Murray]

And so, and so post Barbarossa, Churchill and FDR meet on HMS Prince of Wales on the 9th of August. It's his personal yacht, the Prince of Wales. But basically at this they agree on maths of principle. Why are they fighting this war? What's their common ground?

[James Holland]

Because it is actually drafted in ink pen by Churchill. But it is very much him wanting to get on the right side of Roosevelt and Roosevelt is manipulating him quite dramatically. And Churchill knows this and is allowing himself to be manipulated. But, but, but also Churchill is getting carried away with the, with, with the rhetoric. And it's one of those things. It's a bit like, you know, Wilson with his League of Nations and his, and his great utopian ideals and stuff.

[Al Murray]

Because I mean one of the, one of the byproducts of this is when Churchill gets back to Britain, he has quite a lot of parliamentary management to do as a result of the Atlantic Charter.

[James Holland]

Yes, because.

[Al Murray]

Contents and its contents.

[James Holland]

Well, the eight common pledges, it's worth just going back over them.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, well, no, I think we definitely should because, because you, you can see if you've got imperialist Tory MPs to have to deal with when you get back to London. The eight pledges are no territorial gains to be sought by the United States or the United Kingdom. Okay. Right. Territorial adjustments must be in accord with the wishes of the people's concerned. Tricky. All people have a right to self determination.

[James Holland]

We have a right self determination. Not that the people of Java.

[Al Murray]

Trade barriers are to be lowered. What imperial preference. Oh balls. There's to be a global economic cooperation. Advancement of social welfare.

[James Holland]

I mean this is all that stuff is.

[Al Murray]

That could mean, that could mean anything.

[James Holland]

Yes, but, but, okay, but, but even at its most basic level, that's, that's a fantastic line in, in the agreement. Yeah, that's a fantastic thing. I mean that's saying that we want ordinary people to have a better life.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, well, chunks of the Conservative Party are not going to be keen on that. The United States of Britain would work for a world free of want and fear.

[James Holland]

Want and fear. Yeah. Okay, so we don't want anyone to be hungry anymore. We don't want to be scared of having a bomb dropped. I mean, again, what's not to like?

[Al Murray]

The United States And Britain would work for freedom of the seas. And that's very interesting because up to this point, Britain has been in charge of freedom of the seas.

[James Holland]

Okay, but that's. Again, it's been a real politic kicking in here. Yeah, but, but, but, but, you know, Britain has always been, throughout the 19th century and into the, the first half of the 20th century, has been very keen on, on, on low tariffs, free trade.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

All the rest of it. It's absolutely the bedrock of its economic growth and its empirical growth. Yeah, but that's when they're on top. So it's kind of easy, easy to do that. So, but, but they can't. You can't say all that stuff and then suddenly back down when the moment you've got someone who's, who's, who can compete with you.

[Al Murray]

No, and then the last point is there's to be disarmament of aggression and a common disarmament after, after the war. Well, I think we can all whistle for that one. But yes, definitely. This is the Atlantic Charter. And I mean, this isn't, I mean, what's interesting about it, it's not an American commitment to war.

[James Holland]

No, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a blueprint for future peace. Yeah. And a future world order. This is an extension of the speech of the 6th of January, 1941. This, this is, this is taking the four freedoms. He's been cogitating. It's been going around his head. How does this actually work? Well, the first thing to do is to get the world's largest maritime nation on board and, and tie in Britain at its moment of weakness, where it, where we hold all the aces. Let's get it to sign up. Yeah, yeah, but there is, don't, don't be too cynical about the moral component on this. You know, I, I'm convinced that this is part of the whole thing. I mean.

[Al Murray]

No, I know, I know you are, but I think what this is, what's so interesting is that, is that the moral component is tied to the real politik, is tied to the industrial opportunity, is tied to the imperial opportunity, is tied to, Tied to all. Tied all to all these things together.

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

Yes.

[James Holland]

I mean, let's let the world be free. Let it, let it choose its own things. Yeah. Let the world be prosperous, but America be top dog and most prosperous.

[Al Murray]

And it's interesting, sort of what the Atlantic Charter says is saying to Britain, for the Americans is this is what it's going to cost, not the, not the American Viscose company or anything else. This is, what it's going to cost is an admission that we're, there has

[James Holland]

to be a new world order, that

[Al Murray]

we're top dog now, but we're now top nation.

[James Holland]

Yeah. But also that there's got to be a new world order in which you, your Imperial pass has to kind of be pushed into the longer. Yes.

[Al Murray]

And, and you know, Winston Churchill doesn't want to be the man who presides over the funeral of the British Empire and all that stuff. But it may, it may be he's going to have to. I mean it's interesting though because the Americans do have, they do have an empire, let's be, let's be honest now. They do, they do in the Philippines and Hawaii after all, where Pearl harbor isn't a state at this point. Right. So, so they do have an empire. So they're gonna, Costa Rica, they're gonna have to swallow that. Obviously the Churchill thinks, well this self determination doesn't mean our bits of the world. It means, it means places the Nazis have overpowered.

[James Holland]

Yes, of course he's looking for a very much a sort of European.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Caucasian kind of prison.

[Al Murray]

But that's, but that's who he is. Right. But I think it's, it's, it's. What's interesting though is that what we've been doing here is we've been outlining what's going on in the, in the western part of the war. I think we now we said never interrupt an enemy when he's making a mistake. And I think in the second part we're going to look at the mistake that the Germans make and, and why in the end they're gonna come unstuck. So join us in a moment for our next half which is subtitled how to Lose a War.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Al Murray]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3

[Red Bull Announcer]

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[Al Murray]

welcome back to we have Ways to make youe Talk. The Visionaries Episode four With me, Al Murray and James Holland and We, well, we've, we've, we've made our way through the atlantic charter. We've.

[James Holland]

Four freedoms.

[Al Murray]

The four freedoms. We've paused FDR's pitch.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And. And his sort of. In the end, his inscrutability, I think, is, is which we touched on earlier is a really interesting thing. He is such a skilled politician.

[James Holland]

Such a skilled politician.

[Al Murray]

You get. I almost get the feeling that if he decided actually we need to stay out of the war, he'd have found a way to. He'd have found a way to make that work for him and win another election.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

You know, the fact that he picks going uphill.

[James Holland]

But isn't it amazing that here he is in the summer of 1941 and he's thinking about what the world is going to look like after the war and how America can make advantage of this before they've even entered the war themselves. I mean, it is extraordinary. That's his vision. That's why he's a visionary, because he's looking so far ahead.

[Al Murray]

That's also the contrast between his position politically in Churchill's. Churchill's fighting a war of national survival and imperial survival. Right. And, and how. And as you know, has been since the day took office. He takes office on the day the Germans get motoring in Europe. Right. Roosevelt is, is deciding what to do and then figuring out how to sell it in and figuring out what he can get from it as part of how he sells it in. His political position is completely. It's a completely different one. A situation he finds himself facing. And that's why Churchill very often is. Churchill is kind of politically living hand to mouth. Yes. He signs up to the Atlantic charter, but if he'd not had to, he wouldn't have done. What's interesting is the British strategic outlook to the war is kind of long term and is also about nudging and nurdling the Americans to the point they want the Americans at. But it's much more short term. The fact that Roosevelt's looking out the other end of the war shows that this is. I mean, it's almost the, the detachment of the Atlantic allows him this sort of.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Distance. Whereas if you've got bombs falling on Bristol and Hull and London and Portsmouth and Liverpool and Glasgow, you're thinking, how do we.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Al Murray]

How do we make that stop?

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

In a way that Roosevelt isn't having to consider. And I think that, that, that's, that's actually if you want to, if you want to like, boil it right down to the difference between the two and the. The situations they find themselves in politically. That's it.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And Churchill running on the fumes of the summer of the Battle of Britain. And those fumes. Those fumes are evaporating, aren't they?

[James Holland]

The goodwill of big time.

[Al Murray]

The goodwill is running out anyway.

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

But how to lose a war.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Yes, that's what we offered.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Al Murray]

So the Germans, not led by someone who has a strategic picture.

[James Holland]

Well, yeah, and it's interesting because, you know, Phillips, Payson o', Brien, big fan of his. You know, he was writing just the other day and pointing out that one of the classic mistakes of leaders in war is thinking about the war and planning for the war as they want it to be fought, not as it actually is being fought. And this is. This is, you know, this idea of looking at the world and how it should be through the prism of your own narrow worldview rather than through the eyes of your enemy or the bigger picture. And this is obviously one of the

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

big errors of Hitler, because he can

[James Holland]

only look at it through that because he doesn't have that geopolitical understanding. You know, he is, at the bottom, a failed artist and a lance corporal from the First World War and doesn't really know what he's doing.

[Al Murray]

He's in.

[James Holland]

Above his head.

[Al Murray]

He's a brilliant domestic politician.

[James Holland]

Yeah, that's it. But that's it.

[Al Murray]

That's the extent of it.

[James Holland]

So it's hard. You know, we're going to be doing a series on Barbarossa later this summer, but. But it is. It is hard to overstate just what a kind of terrible plan it is and how badly planned it is. So, you know, it is the largest military assault in history at the time. On the 22nd of June 1941, 3 million German troops, 500,000 horses. I mean, just imagine what half a million horses looks like. Has there ever been an army of 500,000 horses? No. 3350 armored vehicles. You know, and the stated aim is to initially annihilate, obliterate the red army within 500 miles of their start point, which, after all, is not the Soviet Union. Really. It's halfway through Poland.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

So you've got to get one way through that third of Poland, then you've got to get through Belarusia, then you've got to get into Ukraine and you've got to do, you know, up into the Baltic States. You're also trying to do too much with too little.

[Al Murray]

And although that raises the. Is there. Could there ever be enough? Well, too Much or too little? Could there ever be enough to defeat the Soviet Union? Could the Germans ever, ever pull this off?

[James Holland]

Yes, you could. You could go into the Baltics, you go into Ukraine and bid it and stop at the Dnieper, stop the Baltics. Job done.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, but, but would the Soviets throw in the towel in that?

[James Holland]

No, they overreach themselves in a, into a truly horrific way. Yeah. And you know, in the planning,

[Al Murray]

it

[James Holland]

is absolutely clear that there is another element to this upcoming campaign and that is an ideological one. You do Hitler, don't you?

[Al Murray]

The upcoming campaign is more than a mere contest of arms. It will be a struggle between two worldviews.

[James Holland]

And the plan is to annihilate, obliterate the Red army within three months and then turn back to face Britain. And people have to be reminded that the reason they're doing this now when they are doing it, is because they haven't defeated Britain. Britain is still in the war and it's a fear of fighting on two fronts.

[Al Murray]

And, and because he really, really wants to destroy the Soviet Union.

[James Holland]

Yes, he does.

[Al Murray]

He really does. Because his worldview is this idea of, of Jewish Bolshevism.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Al Murray]

And all that. And it's so, it's absolutely directly, it's directly pinned to how he sees the world. And, and as, as we said a moment ago, he doesn't see the world any other way.

[James Holland]

No.

[Al Murray]

By the, by the 15th of July, they're in Smolensk, in Belarusia. It's going well. Stalin is caught completely on the hop. Doesn't believe any of the intelligence he's received. You know, the British are tipping him off.

[James Holland]

No, it's a weird blind spot, which again, we'll be looking into in some detail when we do our Bob Ross's series.

[Al Murray]

I mean, Stalin's really paranoid, but he's not, it's weird that he's not that paranoid. No, it's like he's. The one thing he's not paranoid about is the, is the thing that he

[James Holland]

needs to be paranoid about.

[Al Murray]

You know, and there is a huge build up of German troops on the Polish border and there are defectors coming over going, it's about to happen. And, and the British are tipping him off.

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

I don't believe a word of it.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, he doesn't. But by the time he meets Harry Hopkins at the end of July, Stalin's kind of okay. He's got his mojo back.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Although I never ever thought I'd say that Stalin has got his mojo back. It's not Austin Powers Forms a proper war cabinet at the end, basically in response to, to and, and he, I mean, and this is the mark of the man and his priorities. The security services are united under the People's Commissariat for Internal affairs, which is known as the nkvd, in order to clamp down on defeatism and possible design.

[James Holland]

You can't have that.

[Al Murray]

No, you can't have.

[James Holland]

And you've got to try and move, you know, all of industry to the urals, which is 400 miles further east from, from Moscow. It does that. I mean, that's all big part of the, of the whole myth and everything, but actually it's all a bit kind of hit and missed.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And then, and interestingly, Hitler blinks, actually big time.

[James Holland]

Because it, because immediately after the fall of Smolensk, which is in Belarus. Today's Belarus.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

It starts to slow down. Yeah. So they barely go 100 miles in the next six weeks, which when you're dealing with a nation of thousands of miles of square miles, that ain't enough.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And part of it is completely self imposed. I mean, it would have happened anyway, I think. But, but, but, but yes, as you say, Hitler, Hitler blinks and he declares that Leningrad in the north and Ukraine, the south, are the main priority targets instead of the central thrust towards Moscow. Because you could basically, basically you've got these panzer armies. The panzer armies is where you've got the most of your, your panzer units, which is your mobile units. These, these all arms, motorized infantry, motorized artillery, motorized anti aircraft into infantry, anti tank artillery. But most of them aren't panzer divisions, so there's only 24 out of 199 or whatever it is for Barbarossa. And it just ain't enough because the further you go in, the wheels start to come off, literally and metaphorically, because you can't sustain that level of wear and tear, let alone attrition. And, and you are losing, you are still losing men and material and of course you're losing them from your best units because they're the ones in the spearhead fighting. Yeah, yeah.

[Al Murray]

He leaves Moscow to the Luftwaffe, but then he changes his mind. And this is the, again, the other thing about Hitler, that he can't stick to a decision. He now wants the Luftwaffe to support the southern drive, and he also wants to help the Finns. I want them to be everywhere. Yeah. And he wants them to help the Finns advance against Leningrad. And, and part of the logic here is he, he, he wants to deter the British from intervening in the Arctic, but it's obvious that Britain isn't going to do that. Can't do this anyway.

[James Holland]

They can't.

[Al Murray]

They can't do this. They've got hands full dealing with the desert.

[James Holland]

That's paranoia for you.

[Al Murray]

And he doesn't. He leaves Moscow out of the picture and, and it's not attacked, it's not bombed. And I think famously, Napoleon gets to Moscow, takes Moscow, Moscow is destroyed and still loses. You know, maybe. I mean, maybe that's, maybe that's what's in Hitler's mind.

[James Holland]

Is that it?

[Al Murray]

That doesn't work anyway. What's the point? But, but this isn't working either. If he, what he wants to do is decapitate the Soviet state, then Moscow's as good a bet as anything else. Right.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And, and he thought so. You'd have thought so. He doesn't seem to be making up his mind about this. The hallmark of Stalin's campaigning style is he just does not give a flying monkey about people, his own people, at all. And the Germans can swallow up 300,000 soldiers in a big encirclement. And he's like, oh, well, I'll get another one. We'll get, we'll get some more.

[James Holland]

Well, 5 million men are called up in the, in the, in the three months of Barbarossa. 5 million.

[Al Murray]

Just think of the admin they make.

[James Holland]

They create 80 new divisions between June 1941 and December 1941. 80. You know, it's more than Britain has in the entire war.

[Al Murray]

That's incredible. And there's millions more to come.

[James Holland]

Yeah, and there's plenty more where they came from.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And the, I mean, the Germans are finding it difficult anyway because everyone's reliant on rail transport for logistic reasons here. And the German, German rolling stock does not run on Soviet track. No, it's a different gauge. It's different gauge. The trains are bigger and heavier. They're bigger and heavier so they can carry more water for steam. So the steam points, the water refueling points are further apart on the railway, which, so the Germans, what are, what do they do about that?

[Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)]

Schaser didn't think of that.

[James Holland]

They didn't think of that. Well, they were going to capture them, remember?

[Al Murray]

Yeah, oh, yeah, that's right.

[James Holland]

But, but as you often point out, the enemy's got a vote and you can destroy them if it likes.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

And move them east.

[Al Murray]

Well, and that's what the Soviets do. They scorched earth. They destroy everything in the, in, in, in the Germans path.

[James Holland]

You know, I've got We've got, We've had a look at photos in the past, but you can see all these photos of. Of. Of German troops advancing over the Russian Step. And it is huge. You know, it's. It's like the sort of prairies of the west, and there's just nothing there.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Holland]

At all. And this is what they've got to advance across.

[Al Murray]

Well, and this is also why. Because the, the spaces are so enormous. Why you can make great progress with a punch because you can only. You can only defend so much. But the problem. The problem with punching through is then you create a logistic issue for yourself and also flanks and stuff that you've got to defend and protect. And this is the. This is the. Essentially the problem with German overreach. Yeah. In. In. In. In somewhere that's essentially an enormous sponge that can suck you up.

[James Holland]

Well, yes, and the road network itself, I think something only like 12% of roads are actually paved in a modern way.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Rest of the tracks, which is fine in kind of summer.

[Al Murray]

So. So this, this means by the end of August, it's a pretty ragged. If you're the. If you're the Germans.

[James Holland]

Well, I, I remember that on. By. By the 16th of August, the day after the fall of Smolensk, the 16th Panzer Division has 12 tanks left.

[Al Murray]

Oh, dear. And there'll be little ones as well. They'll be like ones and Panzer twos, won't they?

[James Holland]

Yeah, a few threes.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. But nothing. Nothing that you know.

[James Holland]

And. And there's no Panthers or Tigers at this point.

[Al Murray]

No.

[James Holland]

And probably just as well, to be fair.

[Al Murray]

But the simple truth is actually they're losing.

[James Holland]

They're bleeding. They're winning themselves to death. Yeah.

[Al Murray]

And then as if to compound the issue, Hitler changes his mind again and says, okay, actually, Moscow, we need to decapitate the Soviet state. We need to get. Operation Typhoon, he calls it. We're. We're going. We're going for Moscow now. Which means that Barbarossa itself has failed. His adjustments to Barbarossa have failed. And now he's setting himself up for.

[James Holland]

So this is the third kind of major.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Strategic change.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And I think changing a strategy like this shows you haven't got one.

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah. Of course.

[Al Murray]

It's what it boils down.

[James Holland]

And you never want to go into a war without a proper strategy or proper plan.

[Al Murray]

But then. But then the weather turns, of course, because we've come to the end of the summer. There's rain, as you said. The roads aren't metal, so the roads Turn to mud. This puts extra wear and tear on chassis and on gearboxes.

[James Holland]

Yes. It's also worth pointing out that the German army goes into Barbarossa with 2000 different varieties of vehicle, all of which require different gaskets and, you know, distributor caps.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

All the rest of it.

[Al Murray]

And if. If you rely on lightning speed for results and you can't go lightning speed, you're not going to get the results.

[James Holland]

No, sir.

[Al Murray]

And the Luftwaffe has taken a mauling in all its different tasks as it goes. And the Blitz, I mean, it's interesting, we talked about the Blitz, its moral effect on Britain. The Brit Blitz has stopped in May of 1941 because basically Germany hasn't got enough to go round and can't carry on with that campaign because the Luftwaffe has to be well.

[James Holland]

And it's worth pointing out that during the blitz, 4383 aircraft were lost, of which 3132 were to enemy action. 3363 air crew killed and 2641 taken prisoner just in the Blitz. So this is from September, December to the middle of May, 1941. And that's obviously the Blitz stops just, you know, five weeks before Barbarossa.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And they've lost a lot of transport aircraft in Crete in May as well. But that's been a disaster.

[James Holland]

Yes, they have, yeah. They've lost two. They lose 200 transport aircraft.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Which means that their ability to send in falchion paratroopers or resupply by air, a resupply by air is literally zip.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, yeah. Obviously, we, we. This is the thing we've argued about on the podcast before is, you know, when, when does Germany lose the Second World War? They've lost at this point, haven't they? Particularly, as. Particularly as the Americans have initiated Lend Lease. And for the Soviets, it's over.

[James Holland]

Game over.

[Al Murray]

Throw in the towel, lads.

[James Holland]

How to lose a war.

[Al Murray]

Hmm. But if your raison d' etre is conquest and the annihilation of the people of Eastern Europe.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Then you're going to carry on, aren't you? And Hitler obviously thinks. He thinks that will. Will do the trick here.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Will fill the gap. When, you know, if you've got a panzer division with 12 tanks, they can have all the will in the world, they're not going to achieve anything.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And their production is going downhill, so aircraft production is going down. So it's really interesting. You know, you look, you think, you think of the kind of mastery of the. Of Luftwaffe and all the rest of it. But actually in 1941, Britain produces 20,094 aircraft. It's a lot. They produce more aircraft in 1941 than any other nation in the planet. They receive another 19,433 from America. Germany only makes 11,776 in that time. So, you know, almost half of what Britain's making.

[Al Murray]

Yeah, well. And a quarter of what. What the west is producing.

[James Holland]

Yeah. So I mean. No, I'm wrong about that. Britain, Britain doesn't produce the most. America produces more than them in 1941. But it's a lot.

[Al Murray]

The thing is, is as well. I mean, because the Americans. The thing is. Well, the Germans are so shorthanded. Before Barbarossa, men in the army used to work in ammunition plants. Go sent back to work back from their units.

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Al Murray]

To produce bullets and rounds and shells. And then they, and then they, and then they go back into the military to take part in the offensive. Offensive. Because the Germans are shorthanded to that extent. And there's a big ammunition scandal. Steel crisis.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

In the First World War when the Germans. And there's one in Britain as well where everyone runs out of steel and ammunition. And it, and it's a thing that is really on the Germans minds as Barbarossa is about to get underway. So they're going to run out of stuff. And they, and lo and behold, they do.

[James Holland]

Yes. And they get. By December 1941, they've got within 30 miles of. Of Moscow. Temperature drops. It's gone from the kind of the heat of the summer to the rains of autumn to the snow and ice of winter. That's minus 35 degrees. Their kit isn't ready for this. They can't cope with this level of freezing conditions. Everything jams up, clams up. The. The Soviet Union counterattack largely because they've moved troops from the Japanese front because they've heard that the Japanese are now following a Southern horse.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And with the help of 200 British Matildas and Valentines.

[Al Murray]

You see, the Matilda tank is the most consequential tank of the Second World War. I won't, I won't hear any argument. No, leave your comments below. But you're wrong.

[James Holland]

And then a few days later, of course, the Japanese attack Pearl harbor. The, the U.S. pacific Fleet is crippled. California is half sunk. The West Virginia is on fire. Four of the battleships immobile and out of action. The Oklahoma is capsizes and Arizona's forward magazine explodes with over a thousand crew killed.

[Al Murray]

But, but, but America's now in the war.

[James Holland]

America's now in the war and, and we've.

[Al Murray]

Hitler commits the unforced error of declaring war on the United States of America.

[James Holland]

Yes.

[Al Murray]

Giving Roosevelt exactly what he is expecting. I'm not going to say wants or needs, but. But is expecting.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And you know, we've talked about in big detail Japan's road to war. So we don't need to kind of go back over that again. But I think that the big failure of the Japanese attack on Pearl harbor is that they don't get the aircraft carriers, all of three of which are out at sea at the time. And that's the, you know, the aircraft carrier has now become the preeminent capital ship, overtaking the battleship at, by this point.

[Al Murray]

But even if they had that's what a six month.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Hiccup hiatus or a six month delay for them, isn't it? As if America would go, oh well, you know, they sunk our aircraft carriers, we can't come into this war.

[James Holland]

Yeah. They also don't target the old, the old depots on Pearl Harbor.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Because on Hawaii they're not thinking straight either.

[James Holland]

No, of course. Well that was proved conclusively in our, in our superb four part series on Japan's road to war.

[Al Murray]

Four part series. As we gradually the pair of us become more and more exasperated and it's, it's.

[James Holland]

I really think this, but publicly I'm saying that.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. Well, yeah.

[James Holland]

Was it honor? Isn't it?

[Al Murray]

Whatever it is. Anyway, so. Well we, we basically we, we've reached

[James Holland]

the point where everyone, everyone's in the war now.

[Al Murray]

Everyone's in the war now. Germany now has three main enemies. It's taken on the three biggest imperiums in the world. Essentially the British Empire which, which was. And its dominions. So the Duke, the Duke aspect with its 500 million. Yeah. Which is the, which is the population

[James Holland]

that it can call.

[Al Murray]

Biggest empire the world has ever known.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

It's taken on the United States of America which is, which is the biggest economy in the world with the bit

[James Holland]

of the, with the biggest industrial potential.

[Al Murray]

Yeah. And it's taken on the ussr which like it or not is an empire. Empire.

[James Holland]

And it's huge.

[Al Murray]

A great big empire with a ruthless streak in man management. In management to match the Nazis in fact, probably to probably to outstrip them. Outstrip them. Yeah, the Americans at the time of Pearl Harbor. And I think this is what's really interesting is, is that because of what, because of what Roosevelt's done to tee up American history at the time of Pearl harbor, they're producing 344 warships.

[James Holland]

It is absolutely amazing construction. And there's, there's contracts in existence for some 970 warships under construction. And the interesting thing is to go back to that whole point about. We, we talked in an earlier episode about Bill Knudsen, the chairman of the president of General Motors, saying it's going to take you 18 months, Mr. President, to get, get everything going because it's six months to, to create the machine tools, six months to train the, train all the workers on, on the new stuff, whether it be a Sherman tank, you know, a future Sherman tank or a future Liberator bomber or whatever it might be. And six months to have a meaningful amount of that coming off the, off the conveyor belts. Well, that's 18 months in total. And that conversation took place in June 1940, and here we are in December 1941, and it's all kicking off. So you get this impression that the United States has emerged into an active participant in World War II fully formed. Well, it has, yeah. But there's been a lot, as we've shown, there's been a lot going on before that.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And this is very much working against Germany and in favor of the Allies, you know, and so you have this, this crazy situation. The US is declaring war on Japan on 8 December, but Germany then declares war on the United States on the 11th of December. And the idea is, is in Hitler's mind is that America is going to be focused on the Pacific.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

So this is good news for him. And you know, what's really interesting is both the reaction of Churchill and Hitler to the news of Pearl harbor is exactly the same. Churchill goes, oh, great, we're going to win after all.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And Hitler goes, oh, great, we're going to win after all.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

But one's right and one's wrong.

[Al Murray]

Well, I mean, that doesn't constitute a spoiler, by the way, saying one's right, one's wrong. I mean, unless you're really new to this whole thing, in which case, welcome aboard. Yeah. I mean, the thing is, is as we said, they don't sink the aircraft carriers, but they've laid down hulls for 11 aircraft carriers anyway.

[James Holland]

Yes. So the Japanese, they're coming and they're coming fast.

[Al Murray]

They pick their moment and it's the wrong moment, big time. Join us for our next episode of the Visionaries Planning for Peace. Because this is what we've been stressing as we've gone ahead. Is that. Gone through this? Is that FDR is looking ahead. He's looking beyond the immediate, the immediate hand to mouth strategic situation and looking deeper, deeper ahead than perhaps anyone else taking part. Yes, maybe. Maybe Stalin is looking that far ahead.

[James Holland]

I don't think so. Not this stage.

[Al Murray]

Not at this stage. We hope you've enjoyed this. If you need to listen to these all in one go because you just can't get enough, then first of all, you're a wonderful person. Secondly, go to our Patreon, become a member. We have ways to make you talk Patreon, subscribe and you get this without adverts. You get ticket offers, you get audiobooks, you get live casts, you get special episodes, all sorts. All the fun of the second world warfare that we have to offer patrons where it's at. And of course, in September we have Waze Fest, Mark six, the Tiger of We have ways festivals. It's got thick frontal armor and you

[James Holland]

can stroke it and it will become a kitten.

[Al Murray]

It will become a kitten. And we, if you go to we have Ways uk, buy tickets there.

[James Holland]

And the good news is if you've enjoyed this and you want to know a little bit more, there's also a

[Al Murray]

book, there is also a book called the Visionaries. Yeah. By James Holland.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Al Murray]

Whoever he is. We hope you've enjoyed listening. We'll see you again very soon. Cheerio.

[James Holland]

Cheerio.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

It is out of control in the White House right now.

[Kati Kay]

Welcome to the Rest is Politics us. I'm Kati Kay.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

I'm Anthony Scaramucci, who is the worst politician in Washington right now.

[Kati Kay]

They don't know how to manage Donald Trump.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

I talked to the people that organized the abduction. I'm telling you why they did it.

[Kati Kay]

The White House is isn't a bind.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

Anthony, here's what I would say to

[Kati Kay]

you about the chaos is the strategy.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

It should not have happened and it is a violation of international law.

[Kati Kay]

Is he losing control of the party?

[Anthony Scaramucci]

I survived 11 days in Trump's White House. I know the SOB.

[Kati Kay]

I've been covering politics in Washington for almost 30 years. Twice a week we break down what's really going on in Trump's White House.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

The big issue for the United States States is going to be we were once seen as a benevolent superpower and now we're seen as an aggressor.

[Kati Kay]

You know, he can lie about a lot of things, but he can't lie about what people are feeling about the economy.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

If you really want to understand what's going on in Trump's mind, just search. The rest is politics, us, wherever you get your podcasts.