What Did My Family Do In WW2?

Summary

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Episode Overview

Episode Title: What Did My Family Do In WW2?
Podcast: WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk
Hosts: Al Murray and James Holland
Date: December 25, 2025

In this episode, Al and James dive into one of the most common questions they receive: How can people find out what their family members really did in WWII? Using the vast digital archives of Ancestry, they trace their own family connections, share stories of lost relatives, and unearth hidden details from war diaries, POW records, and operation logs. With a blend of rich storytelling, genuine curiosity, and characteristic humour, the hosts explore the personal side of WWII history and demonstrate how listeners can embark on their own journey into family war records.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power of Ancestry’s Archives (01:47–04:52)

• Digitization Transformation: James describes his surprise at how comprehensive the Ancestry resource is, shifting his view from "births, deaths, and yeoman farmers" to a trove of operational documents and service records.

• Al’s Family Search:

  • Al traces his grandfather Rafe, who operated with the Political Warfare Executive, noting the lack of formal record of his supposed military rank. This leads to discussions of clandestine activities and hidden wartime roles.
  • He tracks his other grandfather’s story—initially recorded as missing, then killed—and reflects on how such records reveal not just stories but also the “muscle” of wartime bureaucracy and its human impact.

  "These records... shed light not just on the people, but on the process, on the bureaucratic muscle behind the whole of the... And so. And his initials are in wrong. And I wonder if that delayed..."
  — Al Murray, 04:01

• Clerical Errors and Human Cost: The team discuss how clerical errors could delay family notifications, showing the war's chaos at the administrative as well as the frontline level.

2. Detective Work in Military Archives (05:00–08:24)

• Personal Connection to Archives:

  • James describes the thrill of investigation, likening it to detective work, filled with dead ends and serendipitous finds ("little rabbit holes").
  • Al highlights the availability of rare primary documents—like POW debrief forms—that bring the reality of war closer.

• Example: Captain John Lothian Nicholson:
  Al reads a detailed POW escape narrative from a British Army captain, illuminating the perils and resourcefulness required during the Japanese advance after Singapore’s fall.

  "About midnight on the 15th, 16th of February 42... we took a 12 foot dinghy from the Yacht club beside the harbor and made off in the direction of St John's Island..."
  — Al Murray reads from Nicholson’s POW Questionnaire, 08:26

• Emotional Resonance: Both marvel at how these records humanize the administrative, logistical, and emotional toll of war.

3. Uncovering Squadron and Unit Stories (12:08–20:18)

• Al’s Friend’s Father and 407 Squadron:

  • Al dives into the RAF’s 407 Royal Canadian Air Force Squadron using online operational record books, tracing his friend's father’s missions—including the famous “thousand bomber” Bremen raid.
  • They discuss the hazardous, relentless pace of Coastal Command, often overshadowed by narratives about U-boat hunting.
  • The diary entries reveal operational highs and lows: celebrations muted by ongoing losses, pride in achievements, and brutal statistics on attrition rates.

  "So at the same time as they're celebrating their squadron anniversary, there's no one left alive with the squashies. Well, there's no one."
  — Al Murray, 14:21

  "There were shouts of glee from all those present when the group captain announced we were going to obliterate Bremen."
  — Al Murray, 20:00

• Nature of Operational Records: James explains the value of both the “diary of events” and the “Operational Record Book” (ORBs), showing how differing styles and detail levels paint richer or patchier pictures.

4. How Ancestry Works: Advice from a Military Genealogist (20:45–23:31)

• Simon Pearce (Ancestry Military Genealogist) Joins:

  • Simon recommends beginners start their research by gathering stories, photographs, and letters from family, then plugging names, dates, and places into Ancestry to trigger record hints and further connections.
  • The importance of building a family tree is stressed; the more detail you input, the more effective the searches and AI suggestions become.

  "Each record is just one piece of the puzzle, so when you find one, it's not the end of it, it’s just... Just leading you on to another one. And that's what's so exciting. You never know where it's going to take you next."
  — Simon Pearce, 22:48

• Personalizing the Past: The hosts reflect on how everyone is just a couple of degrees away from the war—“people were involved in it whether they liked it or not”—making the research both universal and unique.

5. Sicily Campaign: Terrain, Commandos, and Hard Lessons (24:28–39:43)

• James Hunts the 7th Royal Marines War Diary:

  • Using Ancestry’s digitized diaries, James reconstructs a campaign in Sicily where Marine Commandos fill a dangerous gap between British advances.
  • The discussion paints a vivid picture of Sicily’s harsh landscape, the logistical struggles of mechanized warfare in such conditions, and the collision of eras between Allied commandos and centuries-old villages.

  “A proclamation of Allied military government was read from the balcony of the town hall at 0830 hours on the 18th of July. I mean, there's a lot going on just in that paragraph, isn't there?”
  — James Holland, 27:09

  • The hosts trace the challenges of attacking up steep, poorly scouted ground with inadequate equipment (like improvised anti-tank guns that “crash into ravines”), and analyze how lessons learned in these operations fed into better approaches later in the war.

  "First light found the companies in the bridgehead in an exposed position. Oh no. Dominated by Razor ridge and the Picca Indira... they came under very heavy fire from an assortment of German weapons..."
  — James Holland, 37:06

• Reflection on Historical Documentation: Al and James note how officers’ reports both preserve crucial detail and sometimes shape or distort the narrative, and how casualty lists and records democratize the experience by recording “other ranks” as well.

6. Accessibility and Breadth of the Archive (41:00–44:14)

• Breadth of Records: From D-Day diaries to casualty and honors lists and even postwar National Service records, the database allows searches for UK, US, and Commonwealth personnel.

• Family Legends & Verification: The hosts discuss the joy and surprise of verifying or debunking family stories and legends using digitized archives.

• A Plug for Listeners: In their trademark light-hearted style, Al and James urge listeners to explore the archive, suggesting that it “may save you from some awkward holiday small talk,” and expressing genuine gratitude to Ancestry for making research so accessible.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Bureaucratic Mistakes:
  "There's a gap between my grandmother knowing he's missing and knowing he was killed. These records, it just—it sheds light not just on the people, but on the process, on the bureaucratic muscle..."
  — Al Murray, 04:01

• On Prisoner Records:
  "How many people know prisoners of war then filled in a questionnaire when they were liberated? This can be, you know, ‘I'm all right, I was wounded,’ they can be quite sparse or they can be super detailed."
  — Al Murray, 06:46

• The Squad Brought Low:
  "At the same time as they're celebrating their squadron anniversary, there's no one left alive with the squashies. Well, there's no one."
  — Al Murray, 14:21

• On Investigative Joy:
  "One of the things that I really enjoy about doing the research for books is the kind of investigation... you like a detective."
  — James Holland, 10:25

• On Personalizing the War:
  "People were involved in it whether they liked it or not. You will have a grandparent, great-grandparent, great-uncle, great-aunt, whatever, who somehow got caught up in this, because that was the nature of the event."
  — Al Murray, 22:48

• History as Lived Experience:
  "A proclamation of allied military government was read from the balcony of the town hall... I can hear sappers working very hard and not getting the credit."
  — James Holland & Al Murray, 27:09

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:47 – 04:52]: Delving into Al’s family WWII records, and reflections on administrative chaos during war.
• [05:00 – 08:24]: Detective work in archives—POW records and bureaucratic muscle of the war.
• [12:08 – 20:18]: Tracing Al’s friend’s father’s record in RAF 407 Squadron; the hazards and pride of Coastal Command.
• [20:45 – 23:31]: Military genealogist Simon Pearce on how to start researching military ancestors.
• [24:28 – 39:43]: Exploring the 7th Royal Marines war diary in Sicily—terrain, gaps, attacks, and hard lessons.
• [41:00 – End]: Navigating different record types, democratizing family stories, and the ease of use of Ancestry.

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Conclusion

This episode is both a guide and an inspiration for those yearning to dive into their family's WWII past. With warmth, humour, and expertise, Al and James show how to move from myth to documentation, from legend to record. By demonstrating captivating finds from operational logs, war diaries, and oral histories, they invite the listener to connect with history at the most personal and meaningful level—one ancestor at a time.

Transcript

[A]

Thank you for listening to. We have ways of making you talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter, with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com wehaveways.

[B]

This special episode is brought to you by Ancestry. And the question we get, literally more than any other, is how you actually trace a relative through the war where you start, and the truth is, you begin in the same place we do. You start with ancestry.

[A]

It's where the real stuff lives. Prisoner of war questionnaires filled in the moment a bloke stepped off a truck. Operations record books with scribbles. The weather, the odd line about a bicycle going walkabout. And the war diaries that tell you exactly what a battalion was doing at half past nine on that particular Tuesday.

[B]

And even if you're new to family history research, ancestry does so much to help you piece together the stories of your ancestors. A name leads to a unit, a unit leads to a diary entry. Suddenly, you're not looking at history from a distance, you're right beside them, watching their war take shape.

[A]

These records have also shaped today's episode. We followed a few threads that you can explore yourself with an Ancestry family history membership, uncovering surprises, tiny details and those little lines that can completely shift a story. It's an invaluable resource and it underpins everything you're about to hear.

[B]

You can follow along and start exploring your family [e-mail] New Year.

[A]

Achtung. Achtung. Welcome to. We have ways to make you talk with me. Al Murray and James Holland, of course. And Jim, we have got. We've got our hands on something really fantastic here, haven't we?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, honestly, it's. It's very rare, I think, that, you know, come across a genuinely new resource. And obviously, I've known about ancestry for a long time, but I've just thought bursts and deaths and kind of, you know, looking up your great, great, great, great, great uncle, who in my case was a yeoman farmer.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Called Josiah the Wrestler.

[A]

Josiah the Wrestler.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. He lives in Staffordshire, but that's what I thought ancestry was for. Josiah Holland.

[A]

Josiah Holland the wrestler.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've got a mental image of sort of people wrestling in haystacks and stuff. Yeah.

[B]

Looking very white. Yes. But. But sinewy with straw.

[A]

And what's fantastic about ancestry is that, I mean, they basically, they've kind of got everything.

[B]

Everything. Yeah.

[A]

And we'll Talk about what we've found and we'll talk about what we've looked at and. And what. But one of the first things I did, I looked up my family, which is obviously what people are going to do. Right. And I have a fair idea of my family history, Second World War family history. So the first thing I looked up was. So my. My father's father, my grandfather Rafe, when he was in Political Warfare Executive, there is a photograph of him somewhere dressed as a major. Right. Because sometimes they'd be sent on these political warfare jobs and they'd have to dress up as a soldier.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I put him in to see if he'd actually been gazetted as a major and. And he was never gazetted as a major. He's never. So. So PWE quite clearly were up to skullduggery and he was impersonating an officer in the British army, it would seem. So that's quite interesting. Then I looked up my other grandfather. I looked up James who fought with the oxen Bucks at Harzebrook with.

[B]

In 1940.

[A]

In 1940 with the Bucks Battalion. And what's interesting is they are rolling out all of the. Everyone's service records and they're not quite complete, but I did find him in the casualty lists, right. Where he is switched from missing to known killed. But what's really interesting about this because all of these records, the thing to remember is all of these is someone at a tight rider banging them out.

[B]

As quickly as they can.

[A]

You know all that, right. In the initial report, casualty report, they get his initials wrong because there's a gap between my. My grandmother knowing he's missing and knowing he was killed. These records, it just. It sheds light not just on the people but on the process, on the bureaucratic muscle behind the whole of the. And so. And his initials are in wrong. And I wonder if that delayed. It makes you think.

[B]

It makes you think, gosh, yeah.

[A]

They're going through so many people, they don't know where everyone is. They don't know what happened to everybody. They're piecing together the disaster of BEF's battle in May.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

T40.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, all these disparate accounts and bits and pieces coming in and his initials are wrong and maybe that's enough to delay use reaching hose. And I mean, I just really struck by that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's the first thing I looked at.

[B]

Yeah. Amazing on here. Do you remember that the death certificate of Den Brotheridge.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

First man.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Supposedly to be killed on D day. Probably wasn't actually supposed to be mortally wounded. It's not the same thing. But his death certificate is on the 8th of June, not the 6th.

[A]

That's right. In Portsmouth.

[B]

In Portsmouth, yeah.

[A]

Because they bring his body back or something?

[B]

No, I think they bring his belongings and it's where his belongings get registered, because he's definitely buried in. He's buried in Ronville.

[A]

He's buried in Ronville, yeah. And he'll have gone into a. He'll have gone.

[B]

But again, I think that's a clerical error, but that's on the death certificate and it also says died of glider wounds. So I think what happens is he gets wounded, then he's taken to the. One of the broken gliders, which is the temporary rap. And that's because it's in sunken ground. So it's below the ground, normal ground level.

[A]

And he's in the pile of bodies in the basic. In the line of bodies.

[B]

In the line of bodies. His head's bashed in because he's got a net wound, so he's obviously looked rubbish.

[A]

But what I found so interesting is you get into this and you get a feel for, like this, the administrative sinews that are running this entire war effort. And their name. The names are in there.

[B]

You will find. Yes, yes.

[A]

Your family names or not. You know, in the case of my other grandfather, he's not in there. Which. Which.

[B]

Which tells you something.

[A]

Tells you something else.

[B]

Process of elimination. I mean, the interesting is I've been all around the world looking at archives.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I've gone into loads of them and some of them are really, really good, and some of them really are a bit chaotic, to be perfectly honest. So you can just digitally get all this up, download it yourself, put it onto your own Dropbox or whatever cloud file source you use.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

I mean, I had no idea. I had no idea that that was on offer. So I am genuinely very, very excited to know that suddenly I've got this at my fingertips when I didn't have that before. And it means also that if you suddenly, you know, say I'm following a story of someone. Let's say you know someone at Casino. Yeah. And I want to look at what happened to him, I can just immediately go on and look him up.

[A]

Yeah. If you got someone's service number, but also if you've got their names, the date of birth, place of birth, nationality, and if you've got their service number, better skills still. Or if you know a squadron or if you know a regiment, the. The engine, the Search engine here will basically triangulate that, triangulate that person and find them in the information. Right. And, but, but I mean the other thing is, the other thing you start to realize is, and it goes back to my point about the administration, the bureaucratic level of the second war. I mean how many people know prisoners of war were then, then filled in a questionnaire when they were liberated? This can be, you know, I'm all right, I was, I was wounded. They can be quite sparse or they can be super detailed. And we've got one here, which is this Captain John Lothian Nicholson, who was captured on 4 April 1942 in the Bay of Bengal and liberated in Mukien in August 1945. Jeez.

[B]

Three years of prisoner, three years in prison.

[A]

Born on the 1st of October 1913. Army service, 31st of August 1933. So he's a regular and he's from.

[B]

Warminster and actually the vast majority of Japanese prisoners of war were captured in 1942.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So capture and this is his questionnaire. So, so the categories are capture award data.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then there's war crimes nil. Camp conditions. Nil isn't finished. Filled that in. Camp finance nil. Casualties nil. But, but there was this absolutely amazing story of him getting away from Singapore that leads to his capture.

[B]

So, so what? So what unit is he in?

[A]

He is in the HQ Malaya Command. So he's a headquarters soldier. About midnight on the 15th, 16th of February 42, after the surrender of Singapore, Lieutenant Hallows Gordon highlight Highlanders ADC to General Keith Simmons and I took a 12 foot dinghy from the Yacht club beside the harbor and made off in the direction of St. John's Island. The following afternoon we crossed the Singapore Straits, the Dutch islands. Our intentions were to pick up a trading junk somewhere in the Dutch islands to take us to Java. These lads, they're not going to hang around and get picked up by the Japanese.

[B]

No thank you.

[A]

On one of the islands we met and joined up with 10 British and Australian officers and four other ranks. We had a little money between us and used some of it to purchase a 22 foot boat from the natives. In this we continued through the islands and reached Moro. On the 18th of February, on Pulan Moro Mesar we discovered a camp of escapees who were being evacuated by launches up to the Inigar Inigiri River. This is all typed, this is printed off the website.

[B]

It's for real.

[A]

They advised us to continue up the river in our Own boat, which we did, carrying good supply of food given to us by the evacuees. They keep going, they get caught, they wreck the. They run out of food, they split the party up, they get into different boats, they bury the radio they've got with them because they've got any batteries left. And then finally they're picked up. This adventure comes to when he sets out in February and isn't picked up till April. So he's, you know.

[B]

Blimey.

[A]

When it became obvious that no further evacuation ships were reaching Padang, Lieutenant Colonel Warren, Royal Marines, who's in charge of British troops, Padang decided to send a small party to attempt to sail to India.

[B]

Yeah, quite right too. So he's in the Bambin call.

[A]

Exactly. But I mean this, this is absolutely. You know, this stuff is amazing. And, and there are endless prisoner of war questionnaires that have been filled in. And also you've got the Japanese camp records as well. So they're their records of everyone. Of who. Everyone who came. Who came through the camps.

[B]

Well, I've got to say, one of the things that I really enjoy about doing the research for books is the kind of investigation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's a kind of. You like a detective.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're trying to piece things together and you get little leads and you, you get down these little rabbit holes. Usually you have to go to an archive to do this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Increasingly people have digitized stuff but. But only a limited amount. I would say for the most part you've got to roll it with seas, go to wherever it is, Germany, America.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Q in London or whatever, and just go through it. But the fantastic thing about this is you're given such a head start.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With this. I mean, honestly, I can't even begin to tell you how many hours I've spent photographing bits of decrepit paper of war diaries over the years. Yeah. And then you could, you know, when you've done that, you might have sort of 427 photographs from a war diary of 1944 of the Royal West Kent's. For argument's sake. Yeah. Then you've got to organize it all, you got to download it, you've got to reduce the file size, then you've got to convert it into a PDF to make it all useful. All that takes a huge amount of time. Whereas now they've done it all.

[A]

They've done it all. Yes. They get picked up while they're trying to sail to India by the Japanese and then he's in Changi for four months, then High tone Formosa for. For nearly a year. Yeah, for 11 months. And then he. And then he goes, I think he goes to. He goes to Japan, he ends up in Kyushu. So I mean this is hardcore stuff.

[B]

It's amazing how much they move them around. They're absolutely determined that the Allies aren't going to get their hands on them, so that they just move further and further and further and closer. And some of them, like General Wainwright, remember him? Yes, the American General Wayne on Corregidor in May 1942. He ends up in Manchuria or something.

[A]

Yeah, that's right, yeah. What I really loved about this is so an old mate of mine, right, yeah. He used to tell stories and he's Australian, he's Tasmanian. His father was from Glasgow. Emigrated.

[B]

Fly Errol Flynn.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Just like Errol Flynn emigrated from Glasgow between the wars to Tasmania. And then when the call came, comes back to join the Royal Air Force, ends up in 407 Royal Canadian Air Force squadron, the Demon Squadron. Right. And. And my mate Dominic is so proud of his dad being a. You know, he was in the Demon Squadron, mate. You know, they, they always, they always push their attacks home and all sort of stuff. And we used to talk, we used to talk a lot about, about this and he had his logbooks and 407 were Coastal Command squadron, right. So they're engaged in attacks on merchant vessels. They're doing a bit. Was he Mozzies both hunting Hudson's for a lot of it. But one of the big things he used to talk about is how that for the Bremen thousand bomber raid, they were drafted into that to make up the numbers. And he had his dad's logbook with his plot to Bremen and back. And I thought, well, all right then, I'll look up the Demon Squadron. And this is the amazing thing. It's the RAF orbs in the dropdown menu. You just, you just keep going till, till you get the squadron you want. Right. It's quite extraordinary and, and their records. It's relentless. Merchant vessel strikes, they're going out, they're looking for submarines, they're looking for downed air crew, people who've ditched. And it's this endless, relentless tempo of operations. And one of the things that really sticks out is it's their anniversary, right. On 29 May 1942, the Airman Squadron anniversary party took place during the evening. It was unfortunate indeed that so many of both air crew and ground crew could not attend owing to these operations. So they're out on ops. Right. But actually the background to that is Flying Officer Race and crew of Flight Sergeant Clark, Sergeant Summers and Pilot Officer Robinson were on this operation and failed to return. They were last seen making through intense flak to attack an enemy merchant vessel. The loss of Flying Officer Race leaves this squadron with only one of its original bombers still flown.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

WB Cooper. So at the same time as they're celebrating their squadron anniversary, there's no one left alive with the squashies. Well, there's no one.

[B]

And what was it? What was your friend's father's name?

[A]

Sharp. Right. So. So then there's the description of going on the. On the Braymon raid. But listen to this. During the month, this squadron has set up an all time record for damage caused to enemy shipping. A minimum of 83,000 tons of enemy shipping has been attacked during the period since April 10th, 1942. So, and this is the 31st of May, they're writing this. So the intense operational pace Coastal Command attacks on enemy shipping, we don't think of that, do we? No. If we think of Coastal Command in any context, it's U boat hunting.

[B]

But they're all the time going over to Norway, aren't they?

[A]

It's relentless. Right. Several of our crews have successfully attacked three ships each during this period. With the exception of the very new arrivals, all crews have made claims. The previous record in Coastal Command was also held by this Squadron when from September 1 to December 1, 1941, this squadron was credited with damaging 150,000 tons of enemy shipping. Stick that in your U boat campaign pipe and smoke it.

[B]

Yeah. Since this squad, we've so got to do a series on Kaiser Colon.

[A]

It's. It's completely nuts. Anyway, so this is the tempo of operations they're running at, right? But then, oh, they got to go to Bremen to make up the numbers on a thousand bomber raid. And in that I found my friend Dominic's dad.

[B]

Great. What was he doing?

[A]

Early in the morning? All squadron personnel began to suspect something big in the wind. But all efforts to get the story from the Wing Commander proved fruitless. But Basically, of the 11 aircraft of this squadron which took part, and it goes on about how they're flying 12,000ft above white clouds, which obliterated everything. So they're flying, they're going to Bremen. They can't see a thing. You know, same old story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Following six crews successfully reach Bremen and drop their bombs on the city. So there's Pilot Officer o' Connell's crew, Flying Officer Hozier's crew. Pilot Officer Arnett's crew. And these are. These are all five man crews. Flying Officer Taylor's crew, which includes Sergeant J Sharp.

[B]

Fabulous.

[A]

My pal Dominic's dad.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

Although owing to cloud covers, impossible to discern what damage had been done. Although the crews reported explosions, were seen below the grounds and several flares reflected. So they were attacking submarine and shipbuilding base in. In Bremen.

[B]

And to be fair, that wasn't the point of the thousand bomber raid.

[A]

No, it was just to do it. It was to do it. It was to show it could be done right. And it's the.

[B]

It's the third. I still wish they'd done it in 1940.

[A]

It's. It's the third one of the war. So you've got. You've got Cologne. Yes. And then Bremen. Yeah. Because I've been corresponding with Dom to ask. To ask him basically to get his act together so that we can do his dad on family stories. Because it's a good story.

[B]

It's a great story. Do you search up 407 squadron?

[A]

I just found the squadron.

[B]

You did that first?

[A]

Yeah. Find the squadron and then. And then just go through it, you know, scroll.

[B]

You haven't looked him up as personnel yet?

[A]

No, I wanted to. What I wanted do was look at the squadron record and see if he was recorded in it. Because obviously one of the differences with the RAF and say the army is not everyone in an infantry section, you know, B section put in that attack or A company. And here are all the people in A company that afternoon. You know, you never get that. Whereas you do get the crews. So you do get pretty much. Who's in every aircraft?

[B]

Well, you, you. Okay. So what you're looking at is you're looking at the diary of events. Yeah. But there's also a different. So the orbs. So the orbs are like the Battalion War Diaries.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They are effectively the diary, but they're called the Operational Record Book.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you have record of events and you have something else and I can't remember what it is. And one of them is just a list of what crews and what they're doing and what. What sortie they're doing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then the other one is more detailed. Which is one you've got there.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Which specifies it. So the key thing with the orbs is to look at both of them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For each squadron. And so see the records. And also just go through the whole month. Because what it will also do is have a. Invariably I'll Have a kind of roster of what pilots, more aircrew available and what who aren't and all that kind of stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's signed off by the squadron leader at the end of each month and blah, blah, blah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A bit like they are on the. On the individual log books. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it's quite fascinating, but it's absolutely fascinating. And to see that recorded. And obviously, obviously what you really get here, though, you get a real sense of the squadron's pride in itself.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You get a real sense of it as a. As a. Functioning as an organism. So this. The fact that there's an anniversary, but these are the crews that are left.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you get a sense of the toll of the operations, but also their pride in what they've achieved and also.

[B]

The multinational nature of the squadron as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, all these. All these battalion war diaries and. And ships logs. There's fewer ships logs because a lot of them were destroyed after the war. But. But the orbs and the battalion war dies. They're really interested because it. They just vary so much depending on who's writing it. And sometimes it's the adjutant, sometimes it's the intelligence officer, but they do vary and it depends on how wordy the writer wants to be. But some of them can be just absolutely brilliant.

[A]

So this is getting ready for the Bremen raid. Great excitement prevailed when eventually 11 crews were informed that they were going on a bombing raid and not a shipping strike. And disappointment was seen on the faces of those crews who were told they were to stay at home. It was not until briefing took place that we found out what our target was to be. And there were shouts of glee from all those present when the group captain announced we were going to obliterate Bremen.

[B]

Amazing, isn't it? Amazing? Collective gung Honeness.

[A]

You're right there in the room with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I.

[A]

And that was just my following my nose. Pure curiosity. Yeah. Looking at the 3,000 bomber raids. When are they cross referencing them with the diary?

[B]

And then.

[A]

And then landing on this.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's. One of these things is incredibly addictive. You. You very quickly get into it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hours of fun to be had digging around. So should we take a quick break? Because I've also been looking at something as well which is found in the. Takes me back to Sicily.

[A]

Okay, so everything discussed in today's episode has been sourced from Ancestry's records. And, Jim, we have with us Simon Pierce from Ancestry, who's a military genealogist.

[B]

So he knows everything?

[A]

He knows everything. Basically, Simon knows everything, but more importantly, he knows how to find out everything. So, Simon, we've had a lot of fun looking at what we can do on Ancestry, in fact, and Jim, to be honest, has been sort of blown away by it, really, after decades of research.

[B]

Completely. Yeah, it's been absolutely incredible.

[A]

So. So, Simon, have you used the archive yourself to find out stuff about your family?

[B]

Yeah, I've been.

[C]

I've been with ancestry now for 10 years, but using it long before then. And I've used it to look at my military ancestors from the Second World War, from the First World War, from Gallipoli right through to the Burma campaign. And, yeah, it's really helped to bring to life the military experiences of my family members that I never got to meet, never got to ask these questions. But the records opened up all new avenues of research and kind of brought to life their service, really.

[B]

So where should beginners start? Because this is the point, isn't it? It's getting going. That's the slightly bewildering bit. Once you get into it, it's fine, but it's just getting started.

[C]

Because we have so many different military records, whether it's a service record or a POW questionnaire or a war diary, it can be challenging to know where to start. And often I hear people say, oh, I had a parent or grandparent or an aunt and uncle that served, but they didn't really tell me very much. And I always say, speak to a family member. There's usually someone in your family who might have a story, a photograph, a letter, you know, something with a clue just to help you. But we have on Ancestry, and you've probably seen that the British army service records for the Second World War. A great place to start because we're uploading more and more of these service records that have provide a wonderful insight into somebody's service history, right from enlistment through to discharge. So that's a great place to start. I would say, as well, it is worth creating a family tree, because the more information you enter into Ancestry, the more dates, locations, people will start giving you hints. We'll say, okay, this service record or this POW questionnaire or this operations record book might be related to your family member, to your ancestors. So it's worth creating a tree because they will help you with sort of. It's quite intense, intuitive. It will hold your hand, if you like, and make suggestions as you go on. And each record is just one piece of the puzzle, so when you find one, it's not the end of it, it's just. Just leading you on to another one. And that's what's so exciting. You never know where it's going to take you next.

[A]

That, that, that personalizing this great big event, which is, you know, the Second World War, people were involved in it whether they liked it or not. So that's the other thing. You will have a grandparent, great grandparent, great uncle, great aunt, whatever, who somehow got caught up in this, because that was the nature of the event. That makes it maybe something that you can relate to and you can relate to them. And I think it's a, it's an incredible tool, isn't it, Jim?

[B]

Yeah, really is. It's absolutely fabulous. I mean, I've really been completely blown.

[A]

Away by it, to be honest. Well, thank you, Simon. Thanks to Ancestry for offering us yet another and everyone out there, yet another exciting tool for researching the past and bringing the past to life. Welcome back to we have Ways of Making youg Talk With Me, Al Murray and James Holland, where we are. Well, we found this amazing, amazing new toy to play with, Jim, which is the Ancestry Resource.

[B]

Yeah, I had no idea. I've got to say, this is a genuine revelation. I've. I've crossed an archive Rubicon from which I will never be going backwards. Absolutely amazing.

[A]

Well, so in the first half, I talked about how you put a surname in, or you put a name in, date of birth, if you've got it. Unit. If you've got it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it, and it'll, it'll, it'll go ping into the, into the mass of billions of data, and then the Ancestry engine will bring back the person you're looking for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is, which is amazing. And I did that with my grandfather's. And then with a, with a. I went looking for my father, my mate's father, without you, without even using his name. I managed to find him in the Squadron Operational Report. So, I mean, you've, you've got, you've got an iPad. I think we might be doing some. Something live here.

[B]

Semi live. Yeah. Well, I've gone to UK World War II war diaries and this is the Ancestry site. Yeah, yeah. On the Ancestry site. 1939 to 1946. And I've looked up the seven Royal Marines.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Okay, so this is Royal Marines, commandos, and they land at Pino.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you. Do you remember when the Canadians land? The Hasty Peas land?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it's a burkino peninsula and they're going up the. Up one side and they go up to try and clear this house and when they get up there they find the marine commandos already there. Yeah, yeah. And they come up from the other side. Yeah, that's them, these guys. But after that they sort of twiddle their thumbs a little bit. They haven't got transport. There's enough transport. But that whole problem. They front loaded in Sicily, if you remember, with infantry at the cost of transport, which is one of the reasons why they're so slow. But suddenly they're called upon to fill a hole because what's happening is the multi brigade is pushing upwards. They've tried to do this big. The fifth division have tried to do this big sweep and 50th division across the Catania plain on the east coast. Because that's the shortest route to Messina.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But they've hit this stumbling block. They've got the foothills of Mount Etna, Mr. Bianco and Paterno and all that kind of stuff and they can't cross the plain. This is where Headley Verity gets mortally wounded on the attack on whatever it was the 19th, 21st of July. This is the last attack and remember they have to get across the Primazole bridge. So they get bogged down there. So then they're gonna try and loop around a little bit further west where the hills start to rise out of the Catania plain. But what happens is you've got. There's the east coast of Sicily they're sending up 51st Highland Division.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is going up there and they're going up towards Sfero and the Gabini.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Gabini airfields. And they're going to get across the river daetano.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And 231 multi brigade are on their left hand flank also pushing up. But they're starting to diverge under Roy.

[A]

Under Roy Urquhart. Of course.

[B]

Under Roy Urquhart. Yes, Exactly. Later commanding First Airborne at Arnhem. Exactly that. So they're diverging. So 7 RM commando are brought in to fill that gap.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So suddenly they're off and they're sent northwards to a place called Bakari. And do you remember Carry is where they have that. Isn't that where they have that? That shooting with the 45th Division? Yes, because they've now taken over the 45th.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

U.S. 45th Infantry Division's turf. Yeah. And in this war diary added to it is an essay or a report by Colonel F.W. dewhurst commanding.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And he's talking about all the problems they come up against. And they get to Picari and he says the first problem in the town was the supply of food and water. Transport was made available to fetch flour and a supply of petrol arranged to grind the local corn. A water point was established and the old town troughs dating from 1565 were cleaned and made fit for use. All firearms were collected in undesirables apprehended and some semblance of local government registered through the mayor and his clerk. A proclamation of allied military government was read from the balcony of the town hall at 0830 hours on the 18th of July. I mean, there's a lot going on just in that paragraph, isn't there?

[A]

Yeah, Well, I can hear some sappers working very hard and not getting the credit. Well, I can hear.

[B]

But also you're getting a picture, aren't you, of a. What that's basically pointing out is this is a backward place.

[A]

Well, in the vacuum that comes with the collapse of one form of government, I suppose, and what you need to do to get things back on an even kill, and you've got to do it all really, really quickly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you've got supply lines for absolutely anything else.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You need clean water, don't you?

[B]

Well, they get. They're given. So. So the strength of the battalion on resumption of its infantry role was 30 offers and 5. 30 officers and 560 ors. So. So these are lightweight battalions. So a normal battalion would be 845 men divided into three companies, ABC, each about 130 strong or whatever. Four companies rather, and then a company headquarters. These are Royal Marine Commandos and Parabola battalions. They're a bit smaller.

[A]

They tend to be triangular. They tend to have three companies rather than four. Yes, yeah. Well, that's.

[B]

That's. They're also three companies.

[A]

That's interesting.

[B]

So the transport consisted of three jeeps, 11, 1500weights, which are not very big. That's my old Bedford.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Three three tonners and five carriers. The remainder having been left in Africa, was not expected in D +40. Well, D +40 is 21st of August, so campaign's over after D +37.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So the battalion was ordered to join Core HQ, then about 60 miles inland, hitchhiking and ferrying forward as best it could. The first Stage was about 40 miles to be carry a small town in the high hills between Palazzolo and Vizzini. So the interesting thing. So that's where they are when they have this. This problem with supplies. But. But this is super remote. I mean, Sicily is an island, of course. Yeah, but, but it's still pretty big. I mean it's about 150 miles wide, something like that. And trust me, when you're in that area, this is just seriously brutal conditions. I mean this is July, it is absolutely roilingly hot. Yeah, you basically, most of you have had to march from Burkino in this was very little shade, there's very few trees. There are trees, there's olive groves and all the rest of it, but there's not a lot. And this is a kind of rolling undulating countryside that just looks bleached and parched and brutal. And this is also a society that in essence hasn't really changed in centuries. Yeah, you know this is, this is rural, it's agrarian, it's the old contadino system of sharecropping. It's a really tough hard life.

[A]

And when people talk about the Mezzogiono, you know, the southern part of Italy, this is the extreme of the extremes of that.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, so they're going to come to this town and everything's going to look, you know, there's going to be dried effluents on the streets, there's no going to be no sewage, no running water. This is going to be pumping water from wells, it's that kind of thing, troughs that go back to 1565. And I think that, you know, I'm reading between the lines here is basically saying, and it feels like it's still in 1565 in this village. I mean that's the kind of underwritten thing. So it's just fascinating and it's just a reminder that it's not just, it's not just about confronting the enemy, it's also about just the practicalities of right, off you go, you go out there, then out comes the map, off you march in this incredibly heat, you know, hot and hostile conditions. And this is a very, very vivid.

[A]

But also flip it round Jim, if you're the people in that village, this is a science fiction invasion, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People with radios and people with, you know, carriers and carriers and it's a proper collision of eras.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you think of these are, these are hairy ass commandos from wherever. Yeah, that's the other thing.

[B]

Well, and needless to say it doesn't stop in Bakari. No. Because before this work was complete, orders were received from the 30 Corps to advance to Mineo to undertake the defensive corps headquarters. The position was that 2, 31 brigade were advancing towards Agera.

[A]

Yep. Yeah. As your multi brigade.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. With first Canadian division further to the left while 51st division were on the detaino attempting to cross towards Paterno, which is a nestle. So you go over this saddle of hills. It's where the 51st Highland Division Memorial is. It's quite hike to get up there. Now it's built immediately after the campaign, so that's why I did. Well, this is a. This is where we were, so we'll put it here. But actually it's really hard to get to. You've got to go down a track, then walk across fields and get onto a bridge and there it is. But anyway from there you can look down to Sfero and Svero is a. Is a railway halt, tiny little village. And there's a very famous picture from sicily of the 51st Highland Division infantry crossing the railway line. You see them crouching, they've got their bayonets on, they've still got the 13 inch sword bayonets and they're in their shorts and they're crossing the railway line. There is. That's Svaro and that's where the Daytano is, just beyond that. And so they've got to get across Siro, get across the Daytano and then get up onto the foothills of Paterno. But every time they advance they're being overlooked by the enemy, of course. So that's where Paterno is. Thus the two wings of 30 Corps were on divergent axis and a dangerous gap was appearing in the direction of Catanuova, through which infiltration of enemy armor or paratroopers might threaten the left flank of 51st Highland Division or security of corps headquarters. So that's their job. They've now got to kind of push up, but they've done the hard yards so they have to move up. So the plan was as follows. Y Company, with one anti tank gun under command, was entrusted with the primary task to block the road at Lenaretto. The remainder of the battalion would make a silent night advance. B Company left, S company right, A in the centre. So they are four companies here and rear to exploit through. When the crossing was gained, the bridgehead was to be established over river, railway and road opposite a farm and a feature known as Massa Parlotto. So there you go. Wow. Yep. The Massa is these little dikes. Yeah, Flooding anti. Flooding dikes. The advance was to be made over ground that had been cursorily wrecked.

[A]

Uh oh.

[B]

Just before dusk from the sloats of Mountie Turchisi. But the carrier commander of the Gordons had reported that no enemy was south of the river.

[A]

Oh, ready.

[B]

Anyway, basically they have to get onto this high ground. So I mean it's just a nightmare. At dusk, 2000 hours, A and Y companies move forward to occupy the pass also. Oh, which was the base for the attack at 21:30. So 09:30 the Avars began, Y company leading the way to establish the roadblock. The attack was timed for 020-20-July. But the difficulty.

[A]

Are they gonna have trouble getting to the start line? Jim? Basically every infantry attack, the difficulty of.

[B]

The ground made the battalion late on the start line. Oh, not again. Anyway, they have an absolute nightmare. And meanwhile all had not gone well on the road across the pass. Okay. It was a poor track which hadn't been properly recceed because they're new to it. Yeah. Which had never been used for mechanical or motor vehicles and crumbled rapidly. At the edge, two portees carrying six pounder anti tank guns and a carrier went over the edge and crashed into the deep ravine.

[A]

The portee is a lorry with a six pounder on it, isn't it? That's the portee.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they, they used to stick it on the back of.

[B]

They were those Austins, weren't they?

[A]

Falling off the back of lorries?

[B]

James Shopland's got one.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. And it looks like a solution, but evidently, evidently it wasn't. This though is, is part of the, the Allied problem and in fact actually the German problem. When you're trying to fight, you're trying to fight this mechanized warfare that you've perfected for fighting in. Basically fighting in Europe. In Europe in Flanders.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. With modern roads and petrol stations and the like. And you.

[B]

And then you come to Sicily and discover that anchor is still in medieval times. Yeah, that's the problem.

[A]

Yeah. Go on, carry on. Because on the edge of my seat here.

[B]

Yeah, well, quite. First light found the companies in the bridgehead in an exposed position. Oh no. Dominated by Razor ridge and the Picca Indira. The ground was very hard and entrenching tools proved quite inadequate for digging in. Where have we heard that before? Some cover was obtained from the railway embankment and the banks of the river. But all these positions could be enfiladed from the picker. In Deka Ridge the companies came under very heavy fire from an assortment of German weapons, self propelled guns, multiple mortars, including Nebelwerfers, heavy MGs, Spandaus and 88 millimeter guns firing air bursts. Ops from the high ground directed this fire which was beyond the reach of any of the battalion support weapons. Snipers also took their toll. In other words they're in the doo doo. They're trapped at the bottom. Sun's come up.

[A]

They were late to their start line. The attack didn't go in as hoped. They found themselves at break of day somewhere. They can't dig in basically on an exposed slope.

[B]

I mean with insufficient wrecking beforehand, wrecking beforehand. It's sort of all it can be. You can be special forces all you like but.

[A]

Well and this is one of the interesting things isn't it? Is you're still made of flesh and bones and bone. No matter how natty you natty you might be. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Anyway, it continues. The anti tank guns from the ridge near Massa palato destroyed an 88 millimeter gun finally but were put out of action by concentrated mortar fire. Three inch mortars could not reach the enemy from south of the river and therefore moved in their carriers over the crossing. The carrier bellied down on the approach. The other three got into action but from such exposed positions that they were soon knocked out. The above account might well be compared with an article in the Army Quarterly for April A sicilian diary by Lt. Col. Munro. The Queen's own Cameron Highlanders. This battalion covered almost the same ground as 7 RM and face the same problems. So it says. Among the Reuters Comments were the following. 1. It is useless to attack opposition unless you can be quite certain you can get anti tank guns up for consolidation within half an hour. Or if the attack is by night, by dawn. The problem of positioning anti tank guns in the dark is a difficult one. Well I should coco. Tanks in hull down positions are invaluable to to cover the readjustments of anti tank guns which are bound to be necessary at dawn. 2. In any sort of hard ground the entrenching tool is inadequate for consolidation. The extra burden of picks and shovels must be accepted as is the only way of ensuring that men have tools in their hands when they need them.

[A]

Ain't that the truth?

[B]

Yeah. Doesn't feature in the official history that that assault.

[A]

It's just.

[B]

Never mind you but I just thought it was fascinating because there's so much going on there. You know the nature of the terrain, the difficulty, the kind of the problems of being made to attack when you haven't properly reconnoitred the ground. You don't really know what you're doing. You're dependent on hearsay from someone else. Just go yeah, yeah. The enemy on there. Well they weren't maybe a day before when you were there, but they might be now. And the problems of attacking when the enemy's got the high ground, but also.

[A]

The core issue that you need to line up your anti tank defense for when the counter attack comes because there will be a counter attack.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think we've talked often on the podcast how you know by, by 1944, that's all squared off and worked out that you, that what you do is you're using the German counterattack to get the Germans to offer themselves up to your artillery essentially. But they're not, they're not there yet, are they?

[B]

And just picture the scene. You know, you've got this little track is basically a goat track and everyone knows that this is just a bit too narrow and a bit too rough. But they've got to do it because they've got to get their orders or orders. It's dark.

[A]

These anti tank 40s are improvised vehicles. They're not all terrain vehicles. They're. I mean they're lorries with a gun in the, on the back.

[B]

But even the carries go over the edge as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I mean, you know, this is a road that's not fit for purpose for carrying. You know, it's designed for mules.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And for little horse drawn carts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know the wooden wagons is not designed for heavy metal.

[A]

No.

[B]

Modern.

[A]

Tell us how you found that again, Jim. So, so what, what you go on to ancestry and what did you do?

[B]

Yeah, I went up to War diaries.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then just put in 7 RM at the end of this. I'm on page 11 of 239. Right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So you know, I've got a long way to go.

[A]

It's interesting because he files that report, who then reads it because he's, he's got recommendations in there, you know that who reads it. Do they then pass those recommendations on or do they say, well he's belly aching again. You know, Montgomery's crew going commandos, then off bellyache, supposedly. Fantastic. And here he is belly aching about the conditions.

[B]

You know what I mean? Yeah.

[A]

All this stuff and it's all there. You can, you can, you can go find it on, on Ancestry.

[B]

It's absolutely amazing. It's absolutely amazing. I honestly, what a resource. And here you are, you know, you've got UK D Day War Diaries and Photographs, 1944, you know, just click on that. There you go.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Bingo. Up it comes.

[A]

But it's not just waters though, is it Jim? Because, because there's a casualties category. So you haven't. It's basically. It's not just the officers because that's one. That's one of the. Arguably one of the issues with researching this stuff is that those report, these reports are written by officers. They tend to lead with mentioning the officers. Yeah, inevitably. And if you've got a service number, but you don't need.

[B]

But you don't even need. It's like all these things, the more you've got. Yeah. The better.

[A]

But I mean, the casualty records will take you to who's. Who's been injured and that covers everybody. That's not just. Again, that's not unlike the diaries, which are officer led, you know, because the officers. Basically, one of the things about the Second World War is the officers do mark their own homework a little. Yeah. And. And other ranks, though, if you go into the casualty records, you'll find them there and you'll find what happened to them, whether they're mentioned in dispatches, what awards they get.

[B]

There's also US records on here.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

By the way.

[A]

Yeah. Amazing.

[B]

So you can look up U. S Service personnel and all sorts of stuff. It's absolutely incredible. So, you know, I'm just looking at, looking at UK military service records, 1939 to 1959, Westminster, England. World War II records. 1939 to 1945.

[A]

1939 to 1959. That's conscription, isn't it?

[B]

Yes, UK World War II audio, 1939 to 1945, UK recommendations for honours and awards.

[A]

But this is the thing though, because. Because it's national service, a lot of, you know, there aren't very many people around for the Second World War, but I think there's enough grandparents who did national service still kicking around or a fair slice of them. So if your grandpa was at Sue's or whatever, or in Cyprus or later, his national service record will. He will pop up in there. Obviously those are all the wrong war and we're not interested in any of that stuff. No, it's all there if you want to. If you want to look at it. Because one of the things we have, we've had a lot of fun with on the podcast is the family stories thread where people have sent in their family stories, we've read them out. But what we could, what we can do now is like take those people's names and feed them into the ancestry matrix and see what they see, what they come back with. Because that's the other thing is so much family history about, about the war in particular or, or any form of service is kind of word of mouth is kind of offered as, you know, as family legend and family lore law. And yet here you can actually. You can actually place people.

[B]

Yeah. And there's also direct links on this website that takes you straight to the search engine of the National Archives as well.

[A]

If you were to be doing Sicily now, you'd be using this, right?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm about to start on the Battle of the Atlantic.

[A]

Yeah. So it's right here.

[B]

I'm gonna get weaving.

[A]

So, basically, get yourselves over to ancestry.co.uk and we've, like, a promotion with them New Year. What this might also mean is you don't have to speak to any of your family over the holiday period because you're too busy on your laptop looking up your family.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So maybe we're actually gonna help people in that way too.

[B]

What's not to like?

[A]

What's not to like? Thanks for listening, everyone. Cheerio.

[B]

Cheerio. Well, a big thank you to Ancestry for supporting this episode and letting us dig around in their records out if.

[A]

You want to do the same. It's all there. War diaries, logbooks, POW forms, service records, the whole shooting match.

[B]

And to be honest, Ancestry makes it so very easy to get started and make lots of discoveries.

[A]

To start exploring your family history, head to ancestry.co.uk newyear that's ancestry.co.uk newyear.