321. Joy, Burnout, and Being Real in Medicine with Dr. Tiffany Moon

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: You Are Not Broken
Host: Dr. Kelly Casperson
Episode: 321. Joy, Burnout, and Being Real in Medicine with Dr. Tiffany Moon
Date: June 8, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this lively and candid episode, Dr. Kelly Casperson sits down with anesthesiologist, author, and Real Housewives of Dallas alum Dr. Tiffany Moon. Together, they dive into the realities of midlife as women in medicine, the pursuit of joy amidst burnout, redefining success, and smashing stigmas—both cultural and professional. With humor and frankness, they explore the “myth of the mountain” in medicine, navigating motherhood, leaving the traditional path, and ultimately, finding freedom through authenticity and laughter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Joy Is Having a ‘Moment’

• Joy as Resistance: Dr. Mo argues there’s a “cultural war on joy,” saying, “Our country lacks joy. There are so many things that get in the way of us experiencing pure joy.” (01:24)
• Social Media’s Impact: The “compare and despair” cycle amplifies expectations. “Happiness equals reality minus expectations… and everyone’s expectations are so damn high.” (02:03)
• Role of Expectations: The only thing you can control is your expectations, not reality.

2. Burnout and Disillusionment in Medicine

• Personal Stories: Dr. Mo shares her experiences with the grind as an academic doctor, mother of twins, and the loss of joy: “I was working full-time… and I was just like, what the fuck?… I sacrificed so much… and it wasn’t what I was promised.” (03:08)
• Resentment and Regret: Both hosts touch on the exhaustion and resentment that come when achieving success doesn’t yield fulfillment.
• Systemic Issues: “We are not broken; the system is broken… They make it quite untenable for a woman to work full time who has children.” (05:46)
• Leaving Medicine: A striking statistic—30% of female physicians leave full-time practice within six years. Societal and institutional barriers are the problem, not personal failings.

3. Letting Go of Busyness & Redefining Achievement

• Dr. Mo’s Turning Point: “I finally figured out that I am not the sum worth of my achievements. And when I finally believed that, I allowed myself to not run at 60 miles per hour.” (07:26)
• Part-Time Penalties: Going part-time cost Dr. Mo a promotion, highlighting ongoing bias in academic medicine.
• Learning to Say No: Both doctors recount the challenges of setting boundaries, especially in family and career contexts.

4. Motherhood, Generational Change & Parenting With Intention

• Role Modeling: Dr. Mo strives to model healthy attitudes toward achievement for her daughters: “I don’t want my girls to feel they have to be busy all the time or that they’re equal to their achievements.” (11:17)
• Breaking Cycles: Praising effort, not just results. They share anecdotes about parenting mishaps with humor and honesty.

5. On Rest, Health, and Burnout Metrics

• Technology & Biohacking: Discussion of using the Oura ring and Whoop strap to track sleep and heart rate variability. “Mine is so low, I think I’m gonna die, Kelly.” (26:22)
• Reality of ‘Wellness’ While Achieving: Dr. Mo admits that during a book launch she's not “doing the things she preaches” (28:56), highlighting the reality of balancing self-care and ambition.

6. AI, Future Skills, and Medical Education

• AI in Medicine & Life: Both express curiosity (and some anxiety) about how AI will impact the next generation. “I tell my children… you need to develop skills that ChatGPT can’t do.” (17:04)
• The Value of Human Skills: Communication, listening, problem-solving, and self-care are underdeveloped in medical training compared to rote memorization.

7. Professionalism, Creativity, and Double Standards for Women

• Unprofessional Labels: Dr. Mo shares being called “unprofessional” for posting fashion/social media content, emphasizing how such labels often target women:
  • “Punished for being creative. Punished for doing anything outside of the lane of medicine.” (22:44)
  • “You’re punished for not keeping your mouth shut.” (22:49)
• MedBikini Incident: They unpack the infamous “medbikini” debacle—calling out the double standard in how women in medicine are policed for personal expression. (23:36)

8. Therapy, Culture & the Taboo in Medicine

• Therapy in Medicine & Asian Culture: Dr. Mo describes resistance from her family and the profession:
  • “My mom was like, you’re paying someone to talk to you?... You pay me, I talk to you.” (31:20)
• Stigma in Licensing: Licensing boards’ vague questions about mental health perpetuate a dangerous stigma among doctors, reinforcing the need for systemic change.

9. Housewives, Standup, And Laughing Through It All

• Reality TV Reflections: Dr. Mo’s time on Real Housewives of Dallas was unplanned “rebellion” and a turning point in her life, especially confronting anti-Asian racism and visibility. (34:11)
• Comedy in Medicine: Both are passionate about doing standup, riffing on their endless supply of “doctor content,” and being branded unprofessional for it.

10. Finding Real Connection and Joy

• Authenticity & Friendship: Their friendship is rooted in recognizing each other’s authenticity and comfort in their own skin.
• The Gift of Imperfection: Dr. Mo hopes her “Instagram-best” image doesn’t prevent people from recognizing her struggles: “It’s not all as it appears. I struggle just like everyone else.” (39:59)
• Joy in the Journey: The book’s real lesson—“For years I believed [joy] would be waiting for me at the destination and it wasn’t, and I was pissed. So now I’m just enjoying the journey.” (49:25)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Joy & Expectations:

  • “Happiness equals reality minus expectations… everyone’s expectations are so damn high… and your joy goes down.”
    — Dr. Tiffany Mo [02:03]

• On Burnout in Medicine:

  • “We are not broken, as the name of your podcast. The system is broken.”
    — Dr. Tiffany Mo [05:46]

• On Parenthood & Achievement:

  • “I don’t want my girls to grow up feeling that they have to be busy all the time or that they’re equal to their achievements, you know?”
    — Dr. Tiffany Mo [11:17]

• On Professional Double Standards:

  • “I freaking hate it when people don’t like what a woman is doing and they label her as unprofessional… I’m not, like, doing anything illegal.”
    — Dr. Tiffany Mo [22:06]

• On Saying No:

  • “I am not good at saying no. But once you get at least a little bit better at it, you’re like, no, no, no, I’m…”
    — Dr. Kelly Casperson [19:22]

• On Book Writing vs. Parenting:

  • “Birthing a book is like birthing a baby… you gotta be okay talking about your baby a lot—and you hope people like your baby and don’t talk shit about your baby.”
    — Dr. Tiffany Mo [29:32]

• On Standup/Comedy:

  • “I got called unprofessional because I did a bit about all the things I’ve extracted from people’s rectums where they accidentally slipped and fell.”
    — Dr. Tiffany Mo [37:41]

• On Joy’s Location:

  • “The joy is in the journey because for years I believed that it would be waiting for me at the destination and it wasn’t, and I was pissed.”
    — Dr. Tiffany Mo [49:25]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:48 – Introduction: The myth of success in midlife, redefining joy
• 01:09 – Joy as resistance, cultural context
• 03:08 – Dr. Mo’s personal burnout story
• 05:46 – Systemic barriers for women in medicine
• 07:26 – Choosing worth beyond achievement
• 11:17 – Parenting, breaking cycles of achievement
• 15:15 – AI, ChatGPT, and future skills
• 22:06 – Double standards: Labeling women 'unprofessional'
• 26:22 – Biohacking and heart rate variability
• 31:20 – Therapy in Chinese and medical culture
• 34:11 – Real Housewives of Dallas reflections
• 37:41 – Standup comedy and professional boundaries
• 39:59 – Instagram reality vs. reality
• 49:25 – The lesson: Joy in the journey

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Tone & Personality

• The conversation is unfiltered, self-aware, and peppered with laughs, candid profanity, and mutual support. Both hosts exemplify the “real talk” they advocate for in medicine, parenting, and life—reassuring listeners they are not alone in their struggles, and that real joy comes from dropping the performance and embracing both your authenticity and your mess.

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For more:

• Pick up Dr. Tiffany Moon’s new book, Joy Prescriptions.
• Check out Kelly Casperson’s masterclasses and podcast archives.
• Learn about the Lead Her Summit for physician (and non-physician) women interested in breaking out of the box.

Bottom Line:
You are not broken. And you’re definitely not alone.

Transcript

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

This is a real good story about Bronx and his dad, Ryan, Real United Airlines customers.

[Ryan (United Airlines customer, Bronx's dad)]

We were returning home and one of the flight attendants asked Bronx if he wanted to see the flight deck and meet Kath and Andrew.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I got to sit in the driver's seat.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I grew up in an aviation family and seeing Bronx kind of reminded me of myself when I was that age.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

That's Andrew, a real United pilot.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

These small interactions can shape a kid's future.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

It felt like I was the captain.

[Ryan (United Airlines customer, Bronx's dad)]

Allowing my son to see the flight deck will stick with us forever.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

That's how good leads the way.

[Podcast Announcer / Host Intro and Outro]

Welcome to the you are Not Broken podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kelly Casperson, a.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Board certified urologist, thought leader, and conversation.

[Podcast Announcer / Host Intro and Outro]

Starter on midlife living, hormones and sexuality. Enjoy the show.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

So what do you do when everything you've done to be successful is starting to backfire in midlife? What do you do when you get to the top of the mountain and you're like, what else is there? Today we're gonna figure that out with Dr. Tiffany Mo, who's joining us today cause of her very newly published book, Joy Prescriptions. Welcome to the youe're Not Broken podcast. Thanks.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

It's so nice to be here with you.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I'm so glad you wrote this. And I feel like joy is happening right now. Between you and Judith Joseph's books about joy and like, really boiling it down to like, what's the point of doing all of this? I feel like joy's having a moment. Is that too cliched?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

No, it's not cliche. And actually I'm gonna go ahead and say that I think there's a cultural war on joy. We're writing these book about joy. But like, I feel like as a whole our country lacks joy. There are so many things that get in the way of us experiencing pure joy.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yes. I don't need you to explain what's happening now in the news. Like, people get it, but like, why now? We've got five years out from the pandemic. The economy was going pretty good. It's a little rockier now. But like, have you thought of, like, why is now joy being something people are like, yeah, yeah, we need to talk about this.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I think the pervasiveness of social media keeps everyone in a cycle of compare and despair. It keeps you thinking that everyone is on vacation, celebrating a milestone in love, publishing a book, getting a promotion, and you're like, what the fuck am I doing wrong? You know, in my book I wrote that happiness equals reality minus Expectations, and everyone's expectations are so damn high for a multitude of reasons. And then reality doesn't measure up in your joy goes down. I mean, it's a simple math equation really. And the only part of that equation that you can really control is the expectations piece, because reality is going to be what it's going to be. You know, the country is in shambles. There was another mass shooting. It's like, oh, my God, you know what I mean? I don't even want to turn on the news anymore.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. And then the brain, when it's stressed, at least like our brains, the analytic brains, were like, if we can solve for everything, if we can control it, if we can have a plan, it helps us feel safe. But it literally is all consuming then and then, like, that's not where joy lives.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yes, exactly. And I mean, five, six, seven years ago, I was, quite frankly, very joyless. I was going through life on autopilot. I was working full time as an academic anesthesiologist, running clinical trials, head of resident recruitment, interviewing everyone, making our rank order list every February and hoping that I wasn't shattering any dreams. Had a resident OD on fentanyl die, had to look his parents in the face and tell them that their son was trached and pegged and had no probability of practicing anesthesia. He went on hospice and ended up passing. And I had twin toddlers. And they brought me a lot of joy. But also they didn't. I love my children, I love my husband. But I would come home after working 10, 12 hours in the operating room and was potty training my toddlers and teaching them that biting is not a form of communication that we tolerate in this household. And I was just like, what the fuck? What the fuck? Like, I have work hard my entire life. I sacrificed so much. I was 23 when I graduated from medical school. And I just thought that, like, when I got to the top of this mountain, there would be a pot of gold for me and like confetti and champagne and people be like, you did it. You're amazing. You're our hero. And it wasn't like that.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, it's just another Tuesday, right?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I know. And then I just, I got resentful. I got angry. I was like, oh, I should have taken a semester off and studied abroad. I should have had a one night stand. I should have all these things that people talk about. Like, I barely have any, like a life. College memories. Yes. Like actually, you know, making the connections and having moments of laughter and connection. But me I was. My head was in the books all the time. How do you think I got to graduate from 23? Like, that didn't just happen. Like, you sacrifice so much and then you get to the top of the mountain, you look around and you're like, this. It shit.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. The time is now for doctors to become more real, because it's killing us not to. And it's too bad that it had to come to that. Like, it's really bad. And your book helps explain it. People don't understand. Like, they just see you as this expert in the pre op area and like, everything that you sacrifice to be that expert in that moment comes crashing down for a lot of people. You did a statistic in your book that 30% of female physicians leave full time medicine by six years. It's probably higher, but, like, that's absolutely true.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Some of those go part time, some of them leave medicine entirely. And you have to wonder, you know, to get to where we are and then go part time or quit altogether. Like, we are not broken. As the name of your podcast. The system is broken. They make it quite untenable for. For a woman to work full time who has children. I mean, you can do it, but it's going to suck your soul.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. I mean, it's this crazy paradox too, because it's like, med school costs the same no matter how long you're going to be a doctor for. So you got $400,000 ballpark now to train to do this job that literally you can't have a family with the increased burden of work at home unless you are real clear upfront with your partner about, we gotta watch this. Because it's a slippery slope towards societal norms of, like, it costs the same and you don't want to. Tiffany, what would have happened if, when you were 19, people would be like, this is super hard for a woman. Like, we would have doubled down.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Oh, for sure. I was going to do what I was going to do anyway, but I just wish that I had a little bit more clarity going into it.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. And like, you want the actual system to get better for everybody. Men are suffering too. Like, the male physician suicides is insane. So it's like, you wanted to get better for everybody. You don't want to tell women not to do it. I think that was like how the 70s and the 80s and the 60s was like, tell women not to do this. And now we're like, well, women are doing it, but the system's so inhospitable to humanity. At some point you get enough self realization. I can speak for myself, but I want to know your journey too. You get enough self actualization and realization to be like, I don't choose that anymore.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah. I think for me, that was somewhere in my mid to late 30s where I finally figured out that I am not the sum worth of my achievements. And when I finally believed that, then I allowed myself to not run at 60 miles per hour every damn day and to go part time. I used to think that part time was a death sentence in terms of academic achievement. And in many ways, perhaps it was because after I went part time, I was not promoted. I was denied promotion, actually, because I was part time. Like, I actually have a paper that says that, that I could post online.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

You don't get the ladder anymore. The ladder's for these people to climb.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Exactly. Yeah. So it's crazy. I just one day decided that I was worth more than just clocking into the operating room every day.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I got to the point where, like, I was already kind of transitioning to the second part of my career, but I was like 2 in the morning, scoping in irradiated prostate, difficult Foley, zero people helping me in the ER. So the ER calls for my help. I show up at 2 in the morning, zero help. This guy's like, desaturing. He's sick. And it was like, this is not worth it any. Like, I have the skills to do it, but this part of my life is no longer worth it for me. You know, it's such a. It was such a dramatic thing of like, oh, my God, I get to choose to not choose this anymore. Fantastic.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

You took a burnout test. And I was reading that because I'm like, putting myself in your shoes the whole time, and I'm like, how did you not think that burnout test was bullshit?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I mean, I did think it was bullshit. That's why I never took one. I never took one before. But then for whatever reason, it was.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Like, you're like, I like to take tests.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I do like to take quizzes. You know, back when we were 16. And you take those Cosmo quizzes. Yeah. And I kind of was surprised by it because, I don't know, burnout's such a buzzword these days. But I really used to believe that it was a cop out. I honestly used to think that if you said you were burned out, then that just means you weren't a hard enough worker or you sucked and you just couldn't cut it. And that was your excuse. Rise to the top, you know, like, it's so weird how your mindset changes.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yes. Thank God for maturity and coaching. I mean, I think burnout. For a long time, that was the individual's problem that they had. Like, that was your genetic predisposition to burnout and blah, blah, blah. And now we're like, no, no, that's a systems problem. These are just the humans within a system that dehumanizes you and hurts you. I want to see data on the amount of female physicians with autoimmune diseases.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

And infertility, actually.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

And infertility.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah. I mean, I'm not gonna blame the sivoflurane for my infertility issues that I had that I talk about in the book. But, like, just the cortisol levels. You know, I'm taking overnight trauma call, then doing a liver transplant. We do inhaled induction. Sometimes there's gas going everywhere. It's just. I don't have statistics on this, but I think the incidence of fertility is higher in women physicians than the general population.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Interesting. And not just because they're older.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Certainly that contributes. Right. Because we were, you know, in residency, whatever, and we delay childbearing because we were busy. But I think there's something else, too.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Were you aware? Because, like, I'm more aware of it now. But I'm wondering with your journey, like, how long it actually took you to, like, be okay with not being busy. Because our busyness is a coping mechanism so that we don't actually have to do the work of, like, being alone with ourselves and, like, figuring out what you actually want. But, like, how long did it take you to actually be okay with not being busy? And do you still struggle with that?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Oh, every day. I mean, how long? I was like, present moment. I mean, really? It started seeping into my brain maybe around the age of 35. And, you know, now I'm in my 40s, but I still struggle with it. Some days I'm like, oh, I need to do something. And I'm like, wait a minute. No, I don't. And I also have two little girls looking at everything that I do and do as I say, not as I do, does not work. Your children see the behavior that you model and pick it up consciously or subconsciously. And I don't want my girls to grow up feeling that they have to be busy all the time or that they're equal to their achievements, you know? So I'm always praising my kids for being kind and curious and creative. When I was a young girl, if I brought home a 96 on a math Test. The question from my parents would be like, what did you get wrong? What did you miss? Why did you only get a 96? Oh, my God, you missed that question. That's such an easy question. Let's do five pages of it so you never miss that question again. My kids come home now with a 96, which they don't even get grades half the time. I try to praise the effort and, oh, I saw you studying last night doing your flashcards. I'm so proud of you, you know? But sometimes I'm still like, oh, you got a hundred.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Great job.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

And I'm like, oh, I'm not supposed to praise the hundred. Shit, you know?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

But it's so, like, subconscious, right, that you're doing that. It's hard to watch it in the moment. My daughter brought home a 96 yesterday. And I was like, okay, great. She actually brought home a math test and she didn't do or. No, it wasn't a test. It was a worksheet. And she didn't do the second half. And we're like, why didn't she do the second half? And she's like, it was too hard. And we're like, okay, well, that's not really something we do in our family. Like, we try to figure stuff out. We ask for help. How can we work through it, Right? So my husband has a master's in physics from Stanford. The dude can math. And he's like, this is an unsolvable math problem in third grade. He's like, here, you try it. And I'm like, why are you giving this to me? I didn't go to Stanford for physics, right? And so I type it into chat gtp.

[Ryan (United Airlines customer, Bronx's dad)]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It's like a logic thing and all the blah. So I type it into chat GTP and finally get the problem right in chat GP. And chatGPT is like, this is an unsolvable math problem.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

And they're giving that to third graders. So was it supposed to be unsolved?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Right, Exactly. I'm like. I'm like, are you fucking with them? Is this like a psychological test? Right. So I email the teacher and I'm like, just wondering. Seems to be unsolvable. Was that your intention? And she's like, oh, it was a mistake. And we like.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

You're like, cause you've upset a lot of children and their parents now.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

You know, we were gonna give our kid a hard time for like saying something was too hard and not working on it. Right. And so I'm telling somebody this whole story and, and he was very kind. And he's like, kelli, that was a nice example of good parenting of like, you were engaged, you were trying to help out, you followed up with the teacher, you were just like hard on her for not finishing her math homework. Like, you're actually engaged. And I was like, yeah, but they're so. They're sending unsolvable math problems home. Like, yeah, accidentally. It was very funny to be like, okay, how are the parents going to process this one?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I wonder if other parents emailed too or if you were the only one.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I know, I know. I'm super curious.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I try not to be that parent. Always emailing like there was a mistake in the homework.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Anybody else's hands on as us or anybody else type this into Chat GTP or just me.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Okay. Are we worried that the children are using ChatGPT to solve things and like write emails and communicate? Because I'm already worried. I have 21 year old stepchildren and my 10 year old twins. I'm kind of worried because they use ChatGPT for everything. And I'm like, what about your brain?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Right? The emails that come from me that I filtered through ChatGPT are a better version of me, that's for sure. I'm a very short sentence declarative surgeon in my emails and people are like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And I'm like, I don't have time.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I would prefer you email me like that. I hate how verbose chatgpt is. And I always tell mine because I've trained my GPT now and I call it like Tiffany's Voice. That's like the name of my custom GPT that I made. I fed it the PDF of my book and now it writes like me and it's succinct and it's like kind of funny. We'll throw in like a pun in there or something ironic. So I mean, I'm guilty of using AI as much as the next person, but I got to be 40 years old before, before I used it. And I'm just worried that these 20 something year olds that are using it are not gonna have developed the skills that you and I developed because they have this crutch.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I mean, Gen X. Yeah, we're really unique because we were like, we toggled on. Like, we lived off and then we toggled on. That's a very unique generation because our kids and the 20 year olds, like, they're just on. They just have the chat GTP to write the papers. And I do not have answers to everything except for. I saw Bill Gates, a quote from Bill Gates last week and he's like, this is gonn replace doctors, it's going to replace teachers, it's going to replace, like, it's going to replace all these things. And I'm like, and relationships will become even more precious and doctors who know how to communicate with people are going to become more precious and it's like, it's going to be a great tool because doctors don't know everything and teachers don't know everything. But still, like, podcasts will not go away. People love hearing people talk to each other. They're like, we love stories that will cannot be replaced. But like, rote memorization in med school, what's the point?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah, and that's kind of how, I mean, in our era, being a good student was in large part memorizing shit and regurgitating it. I tell my children, my stepchildren and my biological children, I'm like, you need to develop skills that ChatGPT can't do, you know, or else you're not gonna have a job in the near future.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, totally. Because it's like, even if school stays the way it is, which is rote memorization, the existential crisis of doing that, understanding all the answers are right here in my phone at some point, it just doesn't. The logic doesn't make sense. But you know, the skills that doctors need and don't have, like how to communicate, how to listen, how to problem solve, how to take care of ourselves so we can actually stay in a career longer if we want to. There's a lot of skills we don't have that I'm like, maybe we could do some of those instead of, instead of memorizing. Like, dude, have you ever used the Krebs cycle?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I never. I mean, organic chemistry, like, even physics, I mean, yeah, Poissois law, we can talk about linear flow, laminar flow versus turbulent airflow when I'm dealing with critically genotic airways. But like, I didn't need to do that.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

No, I know it's. It's going to be very interesting. And I think, like, for the cost of med school now, like $400,000, Bill.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Gates, his daughter goes to one of The New York City med schools. I forgot. So why is he saying, like, oh, it's going to take over and the doctors. But your daughter's a doctor. I don't know.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Anyway, I know it's going to be like leading teams. And, you know, I've got a guy I know who's like building huge data centers in Texas to hand to be able to process and handle all of this. And he's like, you still need people who know how the sausage is made. Not everybody needs to know how the sausage is made. And they just have magic for everybody else.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

It's just magic, right? Like when the Internet was born. It's just magic.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, it's just totally magic. Learning how to say no.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Still doing it.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Hard, hard. Super hard.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I just turned down a speaking engagement because it was tight and they wanted me to try.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I turned out your speaking engagement like, I know.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I'm like, okay, this is me. I'm like, literally coaching women in my masterclass to like, say no, prioritize yourself, all this stuff. And then I ask you to speak at lead her summit, and you're like, no. And I'm like, no, Say no to other people. Not.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I know, it's crazy. I like. But once you like, I am not good at saying no. But once you, like, get at least a little bit better at it, you're like, no, no, no, I'm.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I'm not as good. I think you're like, this level of saying no, and I'm still down here where I'm like, saying no and I'm like, But, you know, and trying to still manage people, the pain of my husband.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It's hard to be a single parent. And for me to leave is really a stress on my family. And so, like, I'd like to say it's because I have, like, great skills at boundaries and saying no. But, like, it's actually very pain. Painful for my family for me to be gone. And so for me, I'm like, that's such a real thing right now that I use that a lot of like, is it worth upsetting the apple cart?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Right. It's not. And that was when I went part time at work is when I came to the realization that I was giving the best parts of myself away to people who barely gave a shit about me. And I was bringing home the shell of the person that I wanted to be for my husband and for my children. I would. After a long shift, I'm tired. I don't want to run around outside and play. I want to Pour myself a glass of wine. Because it's 6pm and your tolerance for.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Stress is, like, so gone.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I looked at the way I was living my life and I was like, what am I doing? You know, I wake up at six o'. Clock. I don't even see my children in the morning. My husband wakes them up, you know, gets them dressed for kindergarten, first grade, whatever. And I was just like, I never went to any of the things at their school. I never chaperoned a field trip. I never went to the breakfast with mom on Fridays because guess what? I was in the or. In the OR OR is very inflexible. Sometimes I'm like, man, I should have been a dermatologist, because then I could just not take clinic on Fridays. You know what I mean? Like, you have a little bit more flexibility in your schedule. But I just loved anesthesia so much. I still think it's the coolest thing to put people to sleep and then wake them back up. It's like magic, you know what I mean? People are like, what are you doing back there? I'm like, don't worry about it. Mind your business. It offered no flexibility in terms of my life, and it was making me miserable. And that's when I cut back.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, totally. I mean, to me, I'm like, urology is the best. I wouldn't have done anything else. I love all of it. But I mean, it takes so much from you. And then you realize, like, let's talk about you and me and doctors doing unconventional things. 20, 25, more normal than ever for doctors to be stepping outside the box. But even, like, my podcast is five years old, and five years, I was, like, looking for somebody to give me permission who's going to tell me I know enough that I can start a podcast? Like, I'm going to get kicked out of urology probably for. And now I'm like, everybody's starting podcasts, but it's like, it was even five years ago, it was like, dude, that's not professional.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Oh, okay, I have to step in now. I freaking hate it when people don't like what a woman is doing and they label her as unprofessional. I can't stand it. I have been the victim of it several times. When I started posting on social media, I was called into my supervisor's office and the exact word he used was unprofessional. And I said, that's your opinion. You know what I mean? I'm not, like, doing anything illegal, like, crazy, you know, I'm posting Fashion purses. My skincare routine.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Like, you're punished for being creative.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yes. Punished for being creative. Punished for doing anything outside of the lane of medicine.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Punished for not keeping your mouth shut.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yes. How dare you not stay in your lane.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

No, it's a silencing, for sure. I mean, professionalism is so vague.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

And they willed it against women. Honestly.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Oh, yeah. You know what a dude has to do in order to be labeled unprofessional?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

This guy has his beer belly out, is, you know, seeing how fast he can drink a beer and, you know, yelling things that are not nice. Cause his sports team is losing. And that's fine. That's fine. That's sportsmanship. Whatever. They're just being bros, okay? But me posting all the outfits I wore is unprofessional. I can't. I can't.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, it's. I mean, once you call it. Once you see it, you can't unsee it for. This was vascular surgery, man. Like five years.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Oh, my God. Bikini gang med. Bikini med.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Bikini med.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Bikini girl. You're taking me way back.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. What was that? That was. It was pre pandemic. So for people who don't know a vascular surgeon, I think this is what it was.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

It was like a medical student and a resident. This was their project. You guys are putting research in quotes right now.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. So they had like people who were doctors who had published images of them at the beach wearing beach wear, were labeled as. They did a research project to see if that was unprofessional. And they said, yes, a woman wearing a bikini at a beach who happens to be a doctor, that is unprofessional. And they basically. I think they got it retracted from the journal.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yes, it was retracted because there was a whole litany of backlash when that got published as a poster and then in a vascular surgery, peer reviewed. And me, I mean, I have over 50 peer reviewed publications, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But I'm like, okay, how did this get through the peer review process? Because it's not like a blog where you open up a website and you like send it into the atmosphere, like peer review. I have some statistician up my ass about like a Whitman PE test and he's like questioning me. And I'm calling in a statistician. I'm like, I don't know, make it seem statistically significant. I don't know. You know, I mean, up my ass about just minutiae of my research paper I'm trying to get published. But this thing where a bunch of med Students in residents, like made fake social media accounts to troll women on social media. I was like, this is what. The fact that it got published goes to speak volumes about what the men, I'm presuming the peer reviewers were men, thought that this was academically worthy literature that needed to be published. That speaks volumes about that. And yes, it was subsequently retracted. And so the whole medbikini thing was going on for several years. And I chimed in on it, like anytime anyone had anything to say, I'd be like, oh, smells like med bikini all over again.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, totally. In reading your book, you're telling about like the grind of what it takes to basically compete academically at the level we have to, to get to where we are and going back to like, you know, us with infertility and inflammatory diseases. But it's like you can only do this in your 20s. 20s, because the body's still so resilient. But it's like the crappy food, the massive stress, the lack of sleep, it's grinding on the bodies. And I think there is more and more data on doctors aren't the healthiest people at this point because we just, we don't recover. There's no recovery to any of this.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah, it's like all systole, no diastole, you know? And what does that result in? Heart failure.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Totally. I'm completely obsessed with heart rate variability right now.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Me too. And mine is so low, I think I'm gonna die. Kelly, I'm evening you. Kelly. This, this is some wild shit right now.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

What do you got? You got the whoop. What are you doing?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I have AA ring.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

You have the oura ring? Okay, I got the whoop. Good. Let's talk about this.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Okay. I was one of the earliest adopters of Oura Ring. I got mine in 2020 and I was part of a multi center trial in which healthcare workers wore the aura ring to see if the ring would be able to predict you being sick to from COVID before you felt Sick. It's the TempRredict study. The main PI was from UCSF. I was the PI here at my institution. And we found that it can predict you being sick like an average of 24 hours before you feel sick.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

That's incredible. That's incredible. It's so like, it's so amazing. We've never been able to do that before.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

It's so cool.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Okay, so what does it tell you about your heart rate variability?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

My shit is shaming me. Look at this shit. My sleep score was a 45.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Oh, that's not. We got to get that up. I speak whoop, though, so I don't want to interpret my. I don't want to order or ring through.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

My heart rate variability is in the tea. And I know there's, like, in. It's not like, oh, you're 30, I'm 16, so you're better than me. It's like, trend in your individual variability, but I still think I'm gonna die.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

We gotta get you sleeping. Are you on progesterone?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

No, I need to get on progesterone. I need some testosterone cream. My libido is in the trash can. But also, sleeping three and a half hours doesn't make me horny.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, dude. So I was talking to the woo people, and because they. People track their meds and I'm like, do this on and off progesterone because they didn't know that progesterone helps sleep so much. And I'm like, dude, you can watch the REM sleep measure project. What progesterone is doing. That would be amazing data. So they're looking into it, and I was like, give one to me. I'll do two weeks on, two weeks off of progesterone. And then I got to the one like, I don't want to do two weeks off progesterone for Daniel.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Okay. I'm definitely, like, perimenopausal. But I've always been irregular. Weird cycles, infertility. I have pcos. People don't think I do. Somebody I told somebody that had pcos, and they're like, no, you don't. And I was like, oh, excuse me. I didn't know that you had an MD and had access to my labs. And yeah, they're like, well, you're not fat or hairy.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, thank you for noticing. But I mean, to clarify for people listening, that's the stereotype, but that's not everybody. You have friends in your town who can give, who can sue you for harm.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Oh, for sure. This was so bad. I wrote an entire book about, you know, finding joy and connection and laughter. But, like, right now, because of the book launch, like, I'm not doing the things that I said, but it's just because right now, you know, but, like, overall, I sleep well, I eat well, I exercise. But, like, for these two weeks, maybe the sleep score goes down a little. That's the truth of it. You know, I'm not gonna sit over here and pretend like I get eight hours of sleep every night and wake up. And someone came over to my house this morning and did my whole makeup. I was like, checking emails. It's the birthing. That's what I'm telling people. They're like, what's it like to launch a book? I'm like, it's birthing a baby. That's what it's like.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. And you gotta be okay talking about your baby a lot.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah. And you hope people like your baby and don't talk shit about your baby.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

When did you get to the point in this journey where you started trusting yourself?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Only recently.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I think it's a superpower, right?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

It is. And I still question myself. Like, I hired this new assistant, and I. I'm like, oh, I shouldn't have. Like, I knew it all my life. Like, I had a string of failed relationships. I just never knew what. I didn't trust my own intuition. I always, like, was like, oh, he's gotta be a doctor. And he. He needs to be Chinese. And, you know, And I just. Just. And then I ended up marrying my husband, who's not a doctor and not Chinese. Like, I don't know. I wouldn't trust my own intuition because I always thought that, like, my parents knew what was best for me or I didn't ever listen to myself. I don't. You know, you said. When was your question? I think just recently, two, three years ago.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. No means an expert. I'm learning more and more. But I'm like, she knows. The you of you knows. We just spend so much time talking over her.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Right. Or gaslighting her, and then she questions herself.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. Women are socialized that other people are the expert. And so we defer a lot. Or we spend a ton of time being like, what are you on? What are you doing? What's she doing? Blah, blah. And it's like, dude, it's so much wasted time. Like, gather some information. But that shouldn't be, like, the life plan of seeing what other people are doing, because that's what you should do.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

New. Yeah.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. I love it. So I was thinking you were talking about getting therapy and figuring it out. And I'm a huge proponent of both coaching and therapy. It changes your life for the better. But it's like, you had two hits against accepting therapy. I think maybe pro, maybe more. But, like, what does the Chinese culture think about therapy?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Oh. When I told my mom that I was in therapy, she was like, what? She was like, you're paying someone to talk to you. She was like, you pay me. I talk to you. And I was like.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I was like, no, no, because I have to talk about you.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yes. And then, you know, anytime, anything with my mom, she's like, how much you pay? I'm like, I bought her a sweater for Christmas. She opens it out of the box, she lifts it up. It's cashmere. She's like, hey, how much you pay? That's like, literally the first question out of her mouth for anything. Okay. My therapist doesn't accept insurance, so I'm paying her, like, 200 something. And I told my mom the truth. She was bewildered, bewildered that I was paying someone that amount of money for 50 minutes to talk to them. And I was like, it's changed my life. I've been able to understand the complicated feelings I had. My parents left me in China when I was three years old, and I didn't come to America till I was six. And I used to always, like, have abandonment issues, but I didn't know that they were called abandonment issues. And then my first boyfriend, I'd always, like, like, worry if he went out with his friends. And I just like, don't leave me. Don't leave me. And I'd hold so tightly onto people that I probably ended up driving them away. And I just could never understand, like, why I'm so scared that everyone's gonna, like, leave me all of a sudden. And then my therapist was like, do you think it has anything to do with your parents leaving you when you were three? And I was like, oh, my God.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

You're like, oh, there's the elephant in the room.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I mean, why couldn't I figure that shit out on my own before I wasted, like, $10,000? I don't know. I don't know. But I did. It was worth it, though.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Like, between Chinese culture and then doctoring.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yes.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

We're like. We doctors literally have the threat of being told they're unprofessional or that you're mentally incompetent or what? You know, like, doctors have a stigma against therapy.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Oh, for sure. And then if you've ever received any mental health treatment or whatever, when you get licensed, there's like, a sort of vague question that you're like, should I answer yes or no to this? Like, Like, I had depression. I took an ssri. Like, do I answer yes to this? It's. And that's for your medical licensing. Like, it's weird, you know? Like, why are you asking that?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Super messed up.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah. We don't need to be asking people that. Like, are you capable of practicing medicine? Do you have Any activities that will preclude you from practicing what? That's the question. But, like, have you ever received treatment for mental health? Like, get rid of that question. That's ridiculous.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Totally get rid of it. It's like, everybody should be working on their mental health. And if you aren't seeking help, that's a problem. If you answer no, let's say, let's flip it completely. I loved the way you spun Real Housewives of Dallas. And, like, you don't know the how it benefited you until you've gone through it. And then you're like, that was kind of a transition for me for getting my life the way I want to live my life. But, like, you can't know that going into it like, this will straighten me out.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

No, I thought that I would go on and make all these new girlfriends and get invited to, like, fashion shows and cool parties. This was like, my rebellion of having been a good girl. My whole. I did not know that I would become a spokesperson for anti Aapi hate. You know, I did not think that I would be explaining racism to my castmates or what anti racism is. I got made fun of for setting an alarm at 9:30pm on days that I had to be in the OR the next day. And they all made so much fun of me. They'd be like, oh, I hear the sound again. Tiffany's gotta go. You know, like, it's just. Housewives was wild. It was. It was such a wild experience.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It's gotta be so crazy that you understand it's not real, but it's real. You're living the life, so it is real.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

People are like, that shit's scripted, right? And I'm like, no, it's not. It's not scripted. Certainly they poke and prod you and the producers are whispering in your ear, but it is not scripted. That's us being actually angry. But, you know, you poke the bear a lot, and then you wait for it to have a reaction, and that's good for ratings.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

And you feel, feed the bear alcohol, Lots of alcohol.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

My liver enzymes while I was taping that show were definitely high. I did not have them checked. Ast, alt, ggt. I don't even know it was bad. I mean, I was drinking almost every day, and on some days, three to four drinks on a weekend. Because on a weekend, we're filming for, like, eight hours. So you have a mimosa, you know, and then you have a whatever.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

And there's a lot of boredom. Like, there's a lot of downtime.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

There's so much boredom. What people do not understand about filming is that it takes like four hours to film something that's gonna show on TV for 10 minutes. Like a dinner party. They stagger the arrivals. I never knew this, cause I was not a watcher of the show before I became a cast member. But they always stagger the arrivals. So it takes almost an hour and a half to two hours to get everyone into the venue. And then they don't ever feed the you. They do not feed you. I did not know that. The one friend that I had, she didn't even warn me. I was like, you could have warned me. I was like, when is the food going to come? And she's like, oh, it's probably not. And I'm like, but it's a dinner party. And the call time was 6pm and it's 8. And like, I worked all day and I'm starving. And she's like, oh, yeah, you have to eat before you come to these parties. I was like, what the hell? I eat before I come to a dinner party. It was wild. Girl, Housewives is so wild. I have so much tea. That didn't even make it into the book.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Oh, sure.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Because we had to pass it through legal. They nixed, like, half my story.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Did they?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah, we had to condense the Real Housewives chapter into. I couldn't call anyone out by name, which I didn't really. And then I stated some things that they needed me to soften and, you know, we didn't want any troubles or whatever. And what my legal counsel basically said is, no one can argue with how you felt about something. Something. Somebody did something. It made you feel this way. Period. End of sentence. Not arguable. Write that. And I was like, oh, okay, okay. I. I'm picking up what you're putting down. I got it. I got it. So then I had to massage that whole chapter eight.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I love it. My other, like, favorite thing that I feel like I bonded with you in the book is standup comedy. Because let's talk about what's not professional for doctors to do. But, dude, we got content for days.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Oh, yeah. I got called unprofessional because I did a bit about all the things I've extracted from people's rectums where they accidentally slipped and fell.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Dude, so funny.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

And I was called unprofessional for doing that bit. And I said, you've gotta be shitting me. It's literally a joke.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It's literally standup comedy. Understand the genre.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Opera. Yeah. Like we can't even. This is why we can't have nice things, you know? Like, Karen's always gonna ruin it for us.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I did. I took my first out of comedy class. And they're like, kelly, you're a physician, and you're a sex med doctor. You have content for days. They're like, the problem with most comedians is, like, sure, they're funny, but they've never lived a life. They got no content. They're like, dude, between your culture and, like, the rigorous upbringing and then doctoring content for days.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah. Like, when is your Netflix special coming out?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I know. Well, that's the. I'm manifesting a Netflix special.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I'm manifesting it. I want to see more of you. Because when I. I didn't learn of you, I want to say, till, like, last year, I think I was talking about something, and somebody was like, oh, you need to check out Kelly Casperson. I was like, who is that? And then they sent me your Instagram, and I was like, I fucks with her. I like her. You know, like, certain people, like, I just saw your page, and I was like, I immediately want to be friends with, like, I get her. I just feel like we're kind of the same, but different.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, we're living, like, parallel lives. Different, but very parallel. And I think when you see somebody who is very comfortable with who they are, it's a very attractive thing to be like, I want to be around kind of that person who's got it figured out and understands what they're on earth for. And, like, there's a clarity there that's just like, let's hang out. And I see that with you, it's like, dude, this woman knows what she wants. She knows what she doesn't want. She's driven by herself at this point. And, like, I think your book is such a beautiful example of how people might look. Like, this is a work in progress. There's always work to do, but it's like, you know, the struggles are real. And I think some people assume, like, oh, Tiffany, she's had it so easy. Like, she's never struggled. The struggle is real. Even though people might look like they have it all together.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah. And that's partially my fault. I get it. You look at the Instagram feed, it's like, you know my best hits. I definitely don't post when I look disheveled and crazy and I'm having a bad day. Like, I post when somebody came to my house this morning and beat my face with a lot of makeup. Products. So I get it, you know, But I do want people to know that, like, it's. It's not as it all appears. I struggle just like everyone else. I have days where my sleep score is 45 and I'm hustling and, you know, trying to do all the things. So part of the book is I wanted to get real with people and get beyond what I could communicate in like a 60 second TikTok or real.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, I love it. I think this. I think this book is a gift to your daughters, whether you intended that or not. I have daughters too. They might not appreciate this book for a while, but, like, at some point, it's. So here I am. This is me. This is who I like. It's so beautiful. I can't wait for them to appreciate it.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

One of them read some. She kind of asked if she could read it, but I didn't actually think she would. And then, you know, I'm doing stuff around the house and she comes up to me, she goes, mommy, what's infertility? And I was like, where'd you hear that word? I was like, I'm gonna kill somebody. I told you she shouldn't let her have the iPad. You know, I'm looking at my husband, like, giving him the stink eye. And she's like, I read it in your book. And I was like, what? Because I had this advanced reader copy laying around for months and that I was like, making content with. And she said like, mommy, can I read your book? And I like, oh, sure, honey. Like, I didn't think of it. And then I was like, okay, don't read the book anymore.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

That's awesome.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

But they're so sweet, dude.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

They're so like, my kids. Oh, this is a while ago now. They're like, how do you make a podcast go around the world? Oh, yeah. And I was like, okay, because they don't watch me podcast. They don't. And they don't know how big my podcast is. But they're like, how do you make a podcast go around the world? And I'm like, okay, how old are your girls?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Girls?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

They are 7 and 9 with insolvable math problems.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I know, I know your school system.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Very good school. They're making sure the parents are paying attention.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Mine are like, learning in the capital of each state. So I'm getting quizzed at the dinner table, like, do you know what the capital of Tennessee is? I'm like, I sure don't, baby.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I remember third grade, learning that in third grade. So, like, now that they're doing it again. I'm like, it's taking me back to be like. It's like the Krebs cycle. Like, do you ever use the capital of Montpelier in Vermont? Do you ever use that?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

No. And. And I can't tell you what the distal convoluted tubule does. Like, the kidneys, they work when they work. They make pee when they don't. Shit's bad. I don't know how the Nephron works. I don't.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Does anybody?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Well, the nephrologists do. The nephrologists are doing salt balancing equations and talking about dialysate. And I'm just like, okay, what? Whatever. Is the patient going to be wet or dry? That's all I need to know for my anesthetic. Exactly.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Do you need a Foley for this renal obstruction or do you not need a Foley for this urine or.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

No, they're anuric. Okay, cool. Got it. I won't give too much fluids. Cool.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Is this post renal or pre renal? It's probably pre renal. That's. I'm like, this is what the urologist needs to know. Renal, pre renal or post renal?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yes.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

That's all we need to know.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah. So.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

And if it's pre renal, don't call me we.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I. I would love to work in the OR with you. I just think we would be such a hoot. Could the world handle it?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

We would basically solve all the problems of the world and listen to some really good music. I have playlists.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yes, I have playlists too.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. It's very important.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Depending on the surgeon. Sometimes we have, like, 90s hip hop and R and B. Sometimes we do. One of the spine surgeons I work with loves Taylor Swift. Like, we just tay, tay all day. And then one of the guys likes heavy metal. It's the only room. Bariatric surgeon. I'm like, oh, then I have to listen to heavy metal. I'm like, my back hurts, my brain, my ears are bleeding. I gotta go. Go.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It's rough. You should see what your heart rate variability does on those days. That cannot be good for you.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Does your whoop tell you how stressed you are throughout the day?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yes. Which is amazing.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Like, that's not helpful. Like, to tell me that I'm stressed psychologically.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I was wearing a continuous glucose monitor, and it spiked during, like, a challenging part of a surgery. And I was like, oh, it knew when the Foley wasn't going in. Okay. So that was. That was super insightful.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah, I wore one too, from levels for like, three months. And I'd, like, eat an apple and have a huge spike. And I'd be like, shit. I thought this was good for me. You know, White rice for me is.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Like a Snickers bar. Unfortunately, I, like, had sushi. I'm like, I can't have sushi now. I just have to have the sashimi and that's it.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah, I know. I learned a lot. I love all this, like, biohacking stuff. You know what I mean? I mean, it's science, and we didn't learn any of that stuff in medical school now, but I joined these sorts of conferences. And, you know, I read Peter Atiya's Outlive the whole encyclopedia of it. Because I wanna be like a hundred. I wanna be cranky, old Asian grandmother, great grandmother, bossing my kids around, telling them what to do. Like, I can't wait.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

And then you'll say things like, before.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

The Internet, we used to actually memorize things. I got an iPhone My fourth year of medical school. That was my first iPhone ever. Like, I distinctly remember it. Cause before then, I had a pink Motorola RAZR flip phone. It was hot pink.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I had a Palm Pilot.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

With the stylist. Because that was required for medical school.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Oh, my God. Okay, this is. This is it. Did you have a TI83 graphing calculator?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

That shit was a hundred dollars. My parents.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

No, it was like $120.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I came home and told my mom that we. I had to have this piece of technology for math class. And she was like, absolutely not. That shit's $100.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Can't you figure out a sine and a cosine in your brain?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

And I'm like. But it gr. Like, I don't give a shit. Like, use your babysitting money. I'm like, I got to use my babysitting money to buy this TI83 calculator. Like, I was hoping to get lipstick and eyeliner with my babysitting money. This life is so unfair.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. This was not part of the budget. This was your budget plan, dude, at your conference. Let's do standup. Have you done standup at your conference yet?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I would shit my pants.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

That's what we need to do. Tell people about your conference. What's happening.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

It's called Lead Her Summit. The first time we ever did it was last year. This year, we're doing it again in november, seventh through ninth, in Dallas, because that's where I live and it's centrally located. So the west people coast come and the east coast people will come. We have amazing speakers. I target it for not just women physicians because the things that we're talking about are like building your brand. Betsy Grunch came, Sonia Ong came. Negotiation, how to market yourself. Ali Nowitzki talked about nutrition, fitness. It's for all women, not just physician women. And for the physician women, I would say it's probably those that are doing something else outside of just practicing clinical medicine. You know what I mean?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It's like such a physician overachiever thing to be like, oh, the people who just do medicine.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Like, you just do medicine. Like, you don't have a book, you don't have a podcast. Yeah. You don't have your own practice and are running. Yeah, we do it to ourselves. We do. It's all self inflicted trauma, I want you to know. And it's so fun. Last year we had almost 200 people in the room. This year I'm aiming for 300, which would be the entire. And it's a, it's a fun conference. I mean, I don't want to toot my own horn, but it's not like a basic boring conference. Like, it's lively. There were people networking and now some of the people that came to the conference are now like besties and they've gone to visit each other and they talk and people are like, how did you guys meet each other? And like, oh, we sat next to each other at lead her summit. And I'm like, oh, I'm like a matchmaker. But for like adult female friendships.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I feel like I need to be Betsy Grunch's friends though.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

You not know her?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

No, I, I like on, on the Internet, I'm always kind of like, she needs to know that I'm here willing to be her friend. You know how like you decide who's going to be your friend?

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

I decided you were going to be my friend.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

And then I reached out and I was like, hey, that's how can we be friends?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

And I said, yeah, of course. You're like, sure. I love people who know what they want.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Like, oh, you want me a friend? Yeah, that sounds reasonable.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yeah. No, I remember DMing you and being like, can we be friends? And I was like, she is not going to respond. She's going to be crazy. And then you were like, no, it's cool.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, let's be friends because that's how we adult.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

If you come to Lead Her Summit 2026, I will introduce you to Betsy because she's probably going to speak. She Spoke last year, she's speaking this year. She'll probably speak. I mean, she had such a good talk. Betsy is just so authentic. Like, you are like, what you see is what you get. She doesn't try to, like, be this people pleaser, whatever. Like, she is who she is. And she's so funny.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

They're good people because they had to. They had to swim upstream. So fucking correct.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

And me and her have the same taste in music, which is like the wap. That's how we met. The first time we met, I had had a few cocktails and she and I were dancing. And then I don't know how this happened, but all of a sudden dollar bills were being thrown in the air like this and we were dancing to the wap. She can confirm this story. I'm not making this up. And now I'm like, you know, you meet certain people and you're just. Just like, that's it.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

That's so good. We'll wrap it up and we'll say, joy Prescriptions is out now. It's such a beautiful cover and it's such an incredible story of what got you here won't get you there. Self actualization.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Yes. Also, can I add that the joy is in the journey because for years I believed that it would be waiting for me at the destination and it wasn't, and I was pissed. So now I'm just enjoying the journey when y' all see me. And I'm just cracking up, laughing, asking new people to be friends. I'm honestly just living my best life and I just want other women to do the same. That's it.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It's so awesome. And you can't take yourself too seriously. Like, that's part of it, you know? And like, in finding this standup and stuff is like, the world's actually quite funny and like, being able to find that and enjoy it. It's really a present moment thing, which I think is like part of the spiritual ness of this is like, this is actually ancient philosophy on like, how to live a good life is like, present moment, present moment, gratitude and laughter.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Because if for one moment you and I can laugh at something like that. Deep laughter, not a haha chuckle, but like, oh, my God, that's so freaking funny. You forget that we have differences because the world is so divided these days. Like, you can't do anything without somebody getting their panties in a bunch. But if you can have a moment of pure laughter with someone about something, it feels unifying in a way.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Totally, totally. I love it. Oh, thank you for coming on today.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Thanks for having me.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Totally so fun. Until next time.

[Dr. Tiffany Mo]

Okay, bye.

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Thank you for listening to this week's episode of youf Are Not Broken. If you want to dig deeper with me, sign up for my Adult Sex Education Masterclass where you learn adult things like communication skills, anatomy lessons and desire types, and how to talk to your doctor about sexual health concerns. If you want the Adult Sex Education Masterclass for free, free. Join my monthly membership for more in depth exclusive content, more time with yours truly. A private podcast, coaching and educational empowerment and you can watch my interviews live and get them immediately without advertising. Head over to www.kellycaspersonmd.com for the membership and Adult Sex Ed Masterclass members get the Master class for free. This podcast is presented solely for educational, entertainment and informational purposes on only I am a Doctor but not your doctor in this format and all of my platforms and guests including on this podcast are not giving individual medical advice or practicing medicine. See in Consult with your own care team for your individual needs and concerns. This podcast is not intended as a substitute for the care and advice of a physician, therapist or other qualified professional. This podcast does not constitute the practice of medicine, in case you were curious about that and no doctor patient relationship is formed. But I still love you. Using the information on this podcast or any of my platforms is at your own risk. Until next time. Remember, you are not broken.