325. Sex, Safety and Embodied Intimacy

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: You Are Not Broken

Episode 325: Sex, Safety and Embodied Intimacy
Host: Dr. Kelly Casperson
Guest: Whitney Miller (@bdemoves)
Date: July 6, 2025

---

Main Theme Overview

In this episode, Dr. Kelly Casperson engages in a lively and insightful conversation with sex educator and coach Whitney Miller. The duo explores what it means to be “embodied” in intimacy, the deep importance of sexual safety and security, and the interplay of desire dynamics in all kinds of partnerships—including queer, same-sex, and late-blooming relationships. Blending humor, real talk, and empowering advice, they dismantle stereotypes and debunk myths about pleasure, communication, and adult sex-ed.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Whitney Miller’s Journey into Sex Education

• Whitney credits early curiosity (inspired by Dr. Ruth and “Sex for Dummies” as a teen) for sparking her passion in sexuality education.
• A major career pivot occurred during COVID, leading her to help lesbian and queer folks navigate intimacy and, eventually, turn it into a full-fledged business via social media.

  “I've always kind of been the sex coach. Like, did you know that the clitoris actually looks like this? It's not a little nub, it's a whole wishbone blanket.” – Whitney (01:45)

2. Sex Myths, Gender Stereotypes, and Desire Gaps

• The pair call out the common myth that men's and women's pleasure are fixed, mysterious, or oppositional.
• Even queer couples, influenced by heteronormative thinking and media, can fall into the “script” of what sex should be.

  “Even lesbian couples, they'll mimic those heteronormative steps... I'm like, do you. Do you want that? Wait, you're asking me what I want? Yes.” – Whitney (05:32)

• Communication is the missing piece; people often assume or perform instead of asking directly about wants and needs.

3. The Importance of Talking Openly about Sex

• Both guests emphasize the power and necessity of awkward conversations to bridge the gap between partners’ desires and comfort.

  “You have to talk about it. Oh, I don't want to talk about it. And I want it to be spontaneous.” – Whitney (06:13)

• Whitney analogizes sex to planning a vacation: excitement, logistics, and discussing expectations make the trip (and sex) better.

4. Embodiment, Safety, and Security

• Whitney describes people as “heads on a stick”—disconnected from their bodies, especially in daily life and sex.

  “People are walking around like a head on a stick. And then they wonder why when their partner touches them, it feels like cold water.” – Whitney (07:47)

• Differentiates “safety” (knowing what happens next) from “security” (trusting that you’ll be cared for regardless).

  “Safety says, I know what's going to happen next. But security says, no matter what happens, we've got each other's backs.” – Whitney (08:13)

• Achieving embodied intimacy and security requires vulnerability, risk, boundary-setting, and honest conversations.

5. Heteronormativity, Performance, and the “Problem” of Slow Desire

• Discussion about the cultural pressure (for all genders) to center penetration as the main or only kind of “real” sex.

  “We gotta get to a place where sex is so much more than penetrating because it hurts everybody.” – Kelly (15:17)

• Slower arousal or responsive desire is reframed as valuable, not problematic.

  “Slowing down is not a deficit. Like, that makes things more magnanimous... if you taste something delicious, do you hurry up and chew and swallow it?” – Whitney (19:12)

• The myth of spontaneous desire is debunked, especially for responsive desire folks.

  “You're waiting for a bus that's never coming.” – Whitney (40:23)

6. Touch, Play, and Nonsexual Connection

• Nonsexual touch and play are core tenets of intimacy, helping build oxytocin bonds and setting the stage for sex.

  “Touch is the need. Sex is a want. You don't need sex. ... But like, the touch is—that's oxytocin. It gives you a secure bond, gives you confidence in your connection.” – Whitney (17:13)

• Playfulness is intimately connected to sexuality, but adults—especially women—are often socialized away from play.

7. Trauma, Marginalization, and Healing

• Marginalized groups, including queer people and women, must navigate trauma and heightened vigilance for safety in intimacy.

  “A lot of what I do with clients is helping them create trigger plans. ... put the aftercare that's been negotiated in place so that person can realize that the body memory... that's not what's happening right now.” – Whitney (32:51)

• Societal representations of female bodies in media also cause deep, often invisible layers of trauma and shame.

8. Adult Sex Ed: What’s Missing?

• Both guests critique the lack of comprehensive, nuanced adult sex education.

  “Most of what I do in my program is just rehaul their sex ed. ... They're like, it's just sexual attraction that drives this. And that's it... That's a million miles away from the truth.” – Whitney (24:40)

• Emphasis on learning to identify, own, and take pride in one's desires and needs.

9. Addressing Late Bloomers and Communication Tips

• Whitney encourages asking questions, seeking demonstration from a partner, and embracing awkwardness.

  “If it's your first time you're making out, ... just lay her back and be like, I want to see you touch yourself. Can we do that? ... It's hot. It's sexy.” – Whitney (43:05)

• Being “awkward is the first step to hot sex.” (43:35)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Conformity and Pleasure:

  “Usually conformity is what's keeping couples from finding pleasure in the first place... instead of what it is to be a connected couple.” – Whitney (04:01)

• On Lingering in Arousal:

  “The zone of arousal before orgasm is fantastic... Let's just hang out there for a half a day.” – Kelly (38:04) “My wife loves that. She'll tell me, I don't want to come yet. I don't want to.” – Whitney (38:25)

• On Play and Sex:

  “We socialize young girls away from play at a very early age... Play is adjacent to sex.” – Whitney (27:36)

• On Responsive Desire:

  “They're not broken. I think so many women sit around being like, I'm not turned on right now... they're waiting for the wind to blow and for desire to... swoop in. And that's not how it works.” – Kelly (40:04)

• On Visibility and Representation:

  “Visibility is not shoving it down your throat. Like, I've been inundated with straight media my entire life.” – Whitney (12:19)

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• Whitney’s background and COVID career change: 01:23 – 03:20
• Debunking “female bodies are mysterious”: 05:06 – 06:13
• The vacation/sex planning analogy: 06:23 – 07:33
• Safety vs. Security in intimacy: 08:07 – 09:50
• Impact of societal and media representations: 32:51 – 36:16
• Adult sex ed overhaul and late bloomers: 24:40 – 25:55, 42:39 – 44:04
• Responsive desire discussion: 40:02 – 41:21
• Lingering in the arousal zone: 38:04 – 38:56

---

Additional Insights and Advice

• Queer as a Political and Personal Identity:
  Whitney breaks down that “queer” is both personal and radical, not just shorthand for LGBTQ but a conscious choice to reject conformity. (12:54 – 15:06)

• Sexual Communication Skills:
  Directness, humor, and gentle curiosity are best—being awkward is part of the process.

  “You gotta do it. You gotta be awkward. You gotta be silly. It's like that with the first kiss.” – Whitney (43:38)

---

Resources & Where to Find Whitney

• Instagram: @bdemoves
• Website: www.bde-moves.com

---

This episode is a treasure trove of normalization, humor, and actionable advice about embodied, secure, and satisfying intimacy for all bodies and relationships. From sex ed overhauls to playful connection, it centers pleasure, communication, and self-worth—reminding all listeners: you are not broken.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Welcome to the you are not broken podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kelly Casperson, a board certified urologist, thought leader and conversation starter on midlife living, hormones and sexuality. Enjoy the show. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the you are not broken podcast. Today we are going to figure out what can we learn about sex in midlife. What does it mean to be embodied? Why does sexual safety matter so much? And do same sex and gender queer couples also struggle with libido differences? We are joined by Whitney Miller, who is amazing. She is such an amazing Instagram presence at BDE moves on Instagram. Coming to us from the often hurricane filled and now fire filled lands of Asheville, North Carolina. Welcome, Whitney.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me here. We're both flooding and on fire.

[A]

Flooding and on fire. It is biblical on the east coast right now. And we have a. We have a dog in the background for the listeners who love dogs. You know, life happens when you need a podcast sometimes. So we'll do what we can, but the four legged babies are gonna, you know, ask for attention. So give us a little background in how you became the expert that you are in basically helping people full time now with sexual desire connection, adult sex education. Back us up. Were you always a natural?

[B]

Oh, back us up. Well, I mean, Dr. Ruth is where it all started. Like 15 years old, wanting to be a great lover. Picked up a copy of Sex for Dummies. I'm. I'm gonna read this bad boy from COVID to cover.

[A]

Did you find it at the library? Was it at your house?

[B]

Oh, I found it at Barnes and Nobles and, like, snuck it home and wrapped it in aluminum foil and like, took it to school and showed my friends. So I've always kind of been the sex coach. Like, did you know that the clitoris actually looks like this? It's not a little nub, it's a whole wishbone blanket.

[A]

That's awesome, dude. That's so cool. So then we finished high school, we moved out to adulthood. What was the next journey?

[B]

Well, then it was like life was happening. But really how I got to where I am now is because of COVID Covid took my job. At the time I was, I was driving a forklift and teaching yoga. So I had multiple jobs. Then I had no, no jobs. And then Everybody was on TikTok at that time. So I jumped on there to see what was up. They also told me all the lesbians were there. Being a lesbian myself, I was like, oh, are they hurting in one place somewhere?

[A]

All the lesbians are On TikTok during.

[B]

COVID That's where gathered. And then there come the wave of, like, the late blooming lesbians. Because Covid putting everybody at home, it made people think about themselves. They're like, oh, shit, I think I'm gay.

[A]

Was that a thing?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You can look. You can Google it. Like the. The wave of late blooming lesbians that came, like, right after. Yes.

[A]

Wow, that's cool.

[B]

It was fascinating. But I showed up with like, oh, are you new? Let me show you how to use all the different accessories that lesbians use. Or they're like, I don't know how to have sex with a woman. I'm like, I will teach you. I'm happy to do that. And then my friend said, stop doing that for free. And I was like, oh, I can charge. Wonderful.

[A]

That's so cool.

[B]

So I put up a booking link and now we're here, like several courses, mentorships, all that later. So that's like five years ago. Yeah, dude.

[A]

Whitney, why? I mean, like, please excuse my heteronormative lens.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why aren't you teaching the men how to have sex with women? Is that next? Can that be next?

[B]

It's the pissing contest. They don't want to learn about female pleasure from a female. They're already not listening to the women that are telling them. A little to the left. Slow down.

[A]

You're not wrong.

[B]

They definitely don't want to hear it from me.

[A]

I think, dude, like, dudes respect pros.

[B]

Yes. There are some good dudes out there.

[A]

My accountant does my bookkeeping. Maybe somebody with a female body knows how to turn a female body on.

[B]

I mean, I am an expert in turning a female body on, and I have a female body. You would think you'd want to ask me.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. You're a pro. I'm like the hair CEO guy. Like, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not only a pro. I own the parts.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'm telling you, they're like, you should just throw something up and see how many men buy.

[B]

I'm gonna give it a shot.

[A]

We've completely derailed the podcast.

[B]

It's totally okay.

[A]

What would you tell the men that they need to listen.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Do you wanna do it right? Like, but these are the people who usually don't wanna read instructions either. I got it. I'll figure it out. I'm like, well, you know, we kind of gotta, like, sit with that for a minute. So it's conformity. You know, usually conformity is what's keeping couples from finding pleasure in the first place, attached to the idea of what it is to be a man and what it is to be a woman instead of what it is to be a connected couple. And so this conformity gets in the way all the time.

[A]

Oh, my God. I love it. I think the socialization of the stereotypes that female bodies are difficult. They're mysterious. There isn't one just right way. It's hard. And then you watch porn or Hollywood or whatever, which. Which says, this is how a female body experiences pleasure. Like, the cards act against the dudes and the women, all the bodies, everybody.

[B]

Because, like, even lesbian couples, they'll mimic those heteronormative steps. Like, oh, yeah, we're kissing. We're touching. You have to penetrate at some point. I'm like, do you. Do you want that? Wait, you're asking me what I want? Yes.

[A]

I think that's a universal. People don't know what they want.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And then people assume what their partner wants, but they didn't ask them what they wanted. No, they're just assuming what they wanted.

[B]

You can't talk about it, Kelly. You can't talk about sex. We just have it.

[A]

Yeah, you're supposed to have, like, a lot of it. You're supposed to want it all the time. Even though it's never been good. It's very silly. Like, it's a very silly topic.

[B]

It is. I beat my head against my desk a couple of times a day because I'm like, it's just. You. You have to talk about it. Oh, I don't want to talk about it. And I want it to be spontaneous.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I just slow it down. I'm like, let's say you desire going on a vacation. Okay. What do you do? I plan it. I'm like, okay, okay.

[A]

That's a good one. I usually do the whole. Like, I don't spontaneously exercise. I also don't spontaneously eat vegetables. I enjoy them in my life, but they're not spontaneous. I have to plan for that in my life, and then I'm really glad it's in my life. But, like, chopped carrots do not just accidentally end up in my refrigerator.

[B]

No, I mean, I use the vacation analogy with them because I'm like, okay, you planned the vacation. Now, do you just never talk to your partner about going on this vacation? Well, no, we talk about, we're going to buy sunscreen and we're going to get a beach ball. And I'm like, yeah, you Talk about what kind of accessories you're going to take with you on this trip, don't you? Okay. Talk about what you're gonna do when you get there, how excited. Because they just, like, they think, I mean, put sex Tuesday and just wait 8:15 to 8:23. Just wait to be turned on about it. No, you have to talk about it.

[A]

You have to turn. You have to talk about. And you have to get turned on. It's a state that isn't always in the functioning, paying bills, walking the dog state of life. People don't know that.

[B]

No. Well, people are walking around like a head on a stick. And then they wonder why when their partner touches them, it feels like cold water. I'm like, you're not even in your body. Like, you can't fondle her so she's in the mood. That feels like an intrusion. You gotta invite her into her body before you touch her.

[A]

Let's just jump in and talk about safety.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Nobody talks about safety.

[B]

Oh, you gotta watch it, though, because safety's layered.

[A]

Because some people tell me more.

[B]

Yeah, so lately I've been talking about the difference between safety and security. So safety says, I know what's going to happen next. But security says, no matter what happens, we've got each other's backs. If you're going to have desire, you have to have risk. And now it's like, yeah, we had safety, but if you have too much safety, you don't have desire. Because now it's like, well, I don't want to initiate because she might feel objectified. And do you want to have sex? Because if you do, then I do, but if you don't, then I don't. And then we get solicitous and it's like a limp handshake.

[A]

I think I like the security way better than I like the safety.

[B]

It's lovely and it speaks to many people. Because if you have trauma and I say safety, well, you might feel safer with your perpetrator because that's predictable and it's what you know.

[A]

Yep. Secure. How do you develop security?

[B]

That one's hard because you have to lean into the discomfort you've been avoiding. You have to step out of the comfort of avoidance.

[A]

Ew.

[B]

It's gross. It's terrible because now I have to be vulnerable.

[A]

It is terrible. Can I just buy something?

[B]

Can I take a pill?

[A]

Can I just take a security pill?

[B]

Do you have a cream? I could rub it on my forearm.

[A]

Yeah, ideally, if it's made of yams, that would be wonderful.

[B]

Oh my God, some black cohosh.

[A]

Those are selling very nicely just to get some security cream. No, like it's, it's a, it's a practice. It is a practice and it's not something that somebody can always give to you without you being involved in that.

[B]

No, you have to show up and you have to do the thing you don't want to do, which is take the interpersonal risk. Because it's like, oh, that's like the trust fall. If I tell you, hey, I do want to have sex, but I don't want any penetration now I have to trust it.

[A]

1.

[B]

You're not going to judge me for that. You're not going to shame me. You're not going to be cold shoulder about it. And then I have to like step into my self worth of you being kind to me and caring even though I just gave you my boundary. So there's like two sides.

[A]

Just record that, put it on repeat and say for heterosexual women to get into their brain. Because the amount of heterosexual women who are comfortable asking for intimacy, that doesn't include penetration. I don't think many can do it.

[B]

It's hard. It was hard because then I have to stand in my self worth and it's like you're making me stand in my self worth with something I'm already really shaky about and something I've been socialized that's not even for me. It's like sex. It's just for men, you know, I'm just the object of desire. I don't have desire of my own or I'm not supposed to. That makes it really tough because now you have to ask yourself, what do you want to feel?

[A]

Yeah. And you got to show up because it's. You can dissociate.

[B]

You sure can.

[A]

And I think a lot of people dissociate. They're like, okay, let's just get this over with. Let's keep somebody else happy. It doesn't really matter, blah, blah, blah.

[B]

Let me just bite the pillow, you know. And you can do that with a partner who's checked out. You know, they don't ever look at you. You're not picking up on these subtleties. Like it's harder in queer relationships to get away with that because marginalized people are. They're always clocking the room for safety so they can notice like when you're checked out a lot easier, you know, Whereas let's just be real, like CIS straight men, top of the food chain. What are you worried about? They don't even Move on the sidewalk for you. You know, just keep walking. So it's the same in intimacy. Just give me what I want.

[A]

A friend of mine was having a conversation with a man and he was like, why is everybody talking about women? And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she was like, well, don't you see how women aren't represent in movies and media and blah, blah, blah. And he's like, no, I don't see that. And we're like, of course you don't see that. It's not your gig to see that. But other people are seeing that it's missing and want to equalize it. But I think a lot of people don't talk about, like, some people. Everybody sees things differently. And some people don't see things that other people see.

[B]

No. Well, it's like when people see, like, more women or more queer representation, they say things like, oh, don't shove that down my throat. And it's like, visibility is not shoving it down your throat. Like, I've been inundated with straight media my entire life. My parents still managed to raise two gay children. Like, disability does not create these things.

[A]

That's very cool. Hey, let's break it down for the people who might be curious and just don't know. What is queer? What does it mean to you? What does it mean? Are there different definitions?

[B]

Yes, it's a very personal thing. So queer used to be a slur, so a lot of people use it today as taking their power back. There's still people in the community who hate that word. So it is personal. But the way I like to sum it up is queer is a choice. Your sexual orientation is not a choice. You're gay or bi. You're pan. That's not a choice. That's who you are. But being queer is. It's political, it's radical. It's saying, I know that I do not align with conformity, and therefore I have to go inside and find what I authentically align with and ground in that and, you know, up against being ostracized, judged, all those things that you try to protect yourself from by aligning with conformity. It's like it's really going against the grain. Is that queerness?

[A]

So it might have less to do with the genitals that you have or who you're attracted to. It's more of a statement of how I see the world, or I want to see the world, or I want the world to see me.

[B]

I mean, because queer is like an umbrella term, so it could be Your gender, you could be queer gender. You could be talking about your orientation and that being queer. And then I use it just as the spectrum and acknowledging that sexual orientation is fluid. It's way more fluid than people really like to.

[A]

Dude, it's so fluid.

[B]

It's very.

[A]

It's so fluid. Come on, people.

[B]

It's about you wanting to be perceived by a certain person. And the way that you perceive yourself, there's so many layers. Like, if you try to describe attraction, it's very hard.

[A]

It's very hard. If you say you're queer, it is like, there's no, like, test or is there a secret handshake?

[B]

No, I mean, it's like other queers, we notice other queers, but it's just like that person that's moving against the grain. You can see that they're not aligning with what society wants to call normal.

[A]

Yeah. It can be as clear as that. They don't have the mask on.

[B]

Yeah, the mask is off. And that's a journey. Like, you can't just be like, oh, I'm gay, so therefore I'm queer. Queer is like a conscious choice. You're going in, you're asking yourself, like, what of these heteronormative standards are actually serving me and which ones am I carrying just to keep myself safe in this society?

[A]

Oh, yeah. There's great safety in conforming.

[B]

Oh, hell yeah.

[A]

And there's. And there's great opportunity in breaking through that.

[B]

Absolutely. And I think it benefits straight people as well.

[A]

100%. Absolutely. I mean, I think the other thing about, like, again, going back to penetration, asking for pleasure, that isn't penetration. I'm always like, dude, this helps the penis owners. Because erectile dysfunction is legitimate, common, frequent, and the longer we want to live, the more it's going to happen. Like, it's just blood flow and neuroscience and all the things. And it's like, we gotta get to a place where sex is so much more than penetrating because it hurts everybody.

[B]

It does. It's too much pressure. I've talked to men who've said that. They're like, I feel so much pressure to stay rock hard, to let her know how hot she is. And I'm like, man, I have a clitoris and it gets erect and my erections go up and down and up and down. And, like, we don't talk about how normal that is for everybody's erection to go up.

[A]

Penises do that too.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I'm like, dude, if her only knowledge of your interest in her is how Hard your dick is. We've got some communication problems. Come on.

[B]

Like, you should be telling her how hot she is all the time.

[A]

All the time.

[B]

All the time. Foreplay. It's happening all the time.

[A]

All the time. Let's talk about the role of non sexual touch, because you touch on that a lot in Instagram and like, I don't want to say it's poo pooed, but it's like you have to tell people, like, connection isn't just in the bedroom and just like the role of just non sexual touch and feeling close to somebody is awesome.

[B]

Yes. I feel like it's crazy that I have to keep telling people over and over again that it is hot to genuinely care about someone, but I feel like that's where we are. It's just like, just need you to genuinely care about them.

[A]

But we're gonna need to work out on Tuesday. This is the generally caring part.

[B]

But I talk to people and they're like, well, if we're touching, we're cuddling. I get turned on. What am I supposed to do about that? I'm like, display your self control. Like, that's fucking hot. Plus, touch is the need. Sex is a want. You don't need sex. Like, I lock you in a room, you never have sex again. You be irritable, you know, you don't get any tissue damage or die.

[A]

Yeah, you could also masturbate.

[B]

Yeah, you totally can. You have the power. Take it in your hands. But like, the touch is. That's oxytocin. It gives you a secure bond, gives you confidence in your connection. And it could be those subtle touches, like when you're cooking together, you chopping vegetables and you're flirting and laughing. I like to listen to jazz music. My wife likes it when I put the towel over my shoulder. She's like, that's so sexy. And then we're just flirting and little subtle touches and it's setting a simmer. It's much easier to get to a boil if I'm already simmering than if I'm starting with like a pot of ice cubes.

[A]

I mean, like the stereotype thing, like, everything you're saying is pure gold. The stereotype thing is that it's. This is probably any relationship, but like, the person who might take longer to be turned on or maybe the lower desire person gets stuck with this. But it's like they're the problem because they might take longer to want sex. After, like a busy day of like hustling and shopping and working and lunch packing and it's like, oh, aren't female bodies complicated? Because then they take this additional work and I'm like, stop making it a put down.

[B]

Oh, it's so odd because I think that that person reminds the other person to keep novelty going. If both of you were ready to go at the drop of a hat, you would just keep putting in that same cheat code. And you know the cheat code I'm talking about is the one you memorize. This is how my partner comes. I push this button, that button, do this, and they come and you just put that shit in every damn time. It's fucking boring. Like, I know exactly what you're going to do. And it's not hot anymore. And that's where you would be if this person wanted to have sex every single time at the same pace, at the same arousal pace as you. You lather, rinse, repeat. You'd be bored to shit with each other.

[A]

What if a woman could stand in her own power and be like, you are boring.

[B]

I would love that. But I mean, I don't think that's gonna get anybody laid. But it's fun. It's better if you show up and you're like, I wanna feel over powered by you. Or I want to feel nurtured. I want to feel cherished by you. Like, just talk about the feeling and then be curious with that information. Like, okay, what makes you feel cherished? You know, maybe she wants kisses all over her body. You know, slowing down is not a deficit. Like, that makes things more magnamous. And it penetrates so much deeper. Like, if you taste something delicious, do you hurry up and chew and swallow it?

[A]

That's what I always say. Like an awesome movie. Do you wish it was shorter?

[B]

Yeah, the movie is so great. I wish it was only five minutes. Yeah.

[A]

This piece of cake is awesome. I wish it was smaller.

[B]

Yes, but never. But it's always this. Oh, it takes so much more effort to get you turned on. I feel like there's a story behind that. Like, you think you're not as hot because it takes longer.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, you're the problem.

[B]

So now it's about you needing to be so hot that she gets turned on in two seconds.

[A]

Oh, that's a fun project.

[B]

I'm like, come on. Like.

[A]

It'S so good. I mean, I think, you know, one. One power of this podcast is like just getting people comfortable with the idea that talking about sex is. Nobody's died thus far.

[B]

No, we need that sexual candor.

[A]

Yeah. Like, talking about sex is okay.

[B]

Yes, it Gives you more testosterone. It's awesome.

[A]

Yeah. Don't you think?

[B]

It's so good. And it gets responsive desire going. And we know what we want to do when we get there. Like, oh, I know that you've been really stressed lately, so you need a massage first. Excellent. I love touching your sexy body. Let's do that. Or maybe stress for you is you want me to push you against the wall and give it to you rough. Like, you want to know where the headspace is. Like, check in with the mind. The body will follow.

[A]

I think so many partners feel like their partner is taking from them, from sex, instead of being given to and in not taking in a. Like, that's a hot, sexy sort of nice fantasy thing. But, like, they're providing a service. Hey, they're taking an orgasm. Like, it's not, like, about giving.

[B]

No. It's not a mutual exchange. Women tell me, I feel like it's being done to me and not with me.

[A]

Yes. If a person's in that scenario, how would you advise them?

[B]

You got to sit down and have a talk. Because you're in transactional energy at that point. So I would assume there's other transactional energy going on. I would also assume this person is high in caretaker energy. They're probably making all the dentist appointments, preparing all of the meal prepping, doing all the grocery shopping, making sure the kids are where they're supposed to be, and then here comes this partner who grabs them. It's just another person to caretake. There's no caring for.

[A]

But, like, one of my favorite papers is the heteronormative theory of heterosexual women partnered with men. And there's, like, four things that are, like, reasons why desire is low in these people. And one of them is, it's not sexy to want to desire things that you mother.

[B]

No.

[A]

So if you're mothering your partner on the repeat, it's not sexy. You're not supposed to sleep with those people because you're mothering them.

[B]

Yes, exactly. That's, you know, evolution, right?

[A]

It's like you point. You point it out and you're like.

[B]

Oh, yeah, don't want to do that. Like, because sex involves, like, a certain amount of selfishness, and that really fucks with people. I'm like, you have to. And that's why you have to trust each other. You have to feel secure with one another. You have to know the other person's going to speak up when they've passed enjoying and they've gone into enduring. And you have to trust the other person to hear that when it's spoken. And that's why a lot of people end up having sex and they're a million miles apart from each other. You're rubbing their bodies together, they're nowhere close to each other. It's brutal.

[A]

What's sex ed like in North Carolina? Do you know? From a state?

[B]

So my son is 11, and right now they teach consent, boundaries, and just like, general anatomy, puberty. So it's pretty good.

[A]

That's pretty good.

[B]

Yeah. I grew up in East Tennessee, so I got the abstinence only.

[A]

Oh, you got the abstinence only phase.

[B]

Like, I got the fifth grade health class, but I also got the. You're a piece of chewed gum.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. If you've been penetrated, then you're used. God, that's damaging. It's so damaging.

[B]

Yes. I've been prayed over for my secondary virginity at a True Love Waits retreat. Need to be pure.

[A]

Okay, so you have been through several pieces of a journey. Yes, I had. Mine was very. So Catholic school, skirts had to be below the knee. Mary was a virgin. That was all very unique immaculate conception, but it was very a medical set. I remember medical sex ed. I remember ovaries in the uterus. Vagina was a tube. There was no vulva. There was no clitoris.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Doesn't exist.

[A]

It doesn't exist.

[B]

So disturbing.

[A]

Yeah. So that's crazy. Yeah. And like, in me thinking about, like, adult sex ed and like, I think, so many problems. 70% of divorces are initiated by. In a heterosexual relationship are initiated by the female. And, like, they. What they call gray divorces, which is like, kids are gone and it's like, dude, so many issues could be solved by just people understanding how to talk about sex and adult sex ed. Intimacy is the thing. The divorce lawyers agree.

[B]

Yes. It's. Most of what I do in my program is just rehaul their sex ed. That's the first two weeks we're doing a sex ed rehaul.

[A]

They think what they think is correct.

[B]

Yes. They're like, it's just sexual attraction that drives this. And that's it. If I go to my partner and I say, do you want to have sex? And they say, no, that means you're not attracted to me and I'm not desirable. And that's it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, that's a million miles away from the truth.

[A]

It's so educational for them, though. You're saving relationships.

[B]

Oh, every day. Every day. It's in my comment section. Like, thank you so much. I did a live yesterday and just said, invite your partner into their body before you invite them into sex. And their minds were blown. They're like, oh, my God.

[A]

I saw that. It was mind blowing. I agree.

[B]

This comes from years of yoga facilitation. Most people are walking around in their cerebral space. They're not even in their body. So you touch them and it feels like you just drug them into another room abruptly. It just doesn't feel welcoming. You didn't put a welcome mat out. You know, light a candle, turn the overhead lights off, put some music on, make sure she's in her body before you touch her.

[A]

Yeah, I love that. It's so good. What big barriers do you think that same sex and queer individuals have that you're seeing? They're coming to you and you're like, oh, had we as a community known this or talked about this, this problem would be solved.

[B]

A lot of what I see, because I work with a lot of women and like, non binary folks. So it's usually people who have been socialized as women. And that's the thing that I see over and over again, is the way that women are socialized. We're socialized to put ourselves last. We're socialized to take care of everybody else first. Our needs. Don't worry about them to be damned. And that keeps us from talking about what we want, what we desire. They don't talk about their fantasies. A lot of them, when it's like, what do you want? I don't know. Nobody's ever approached them. So I spent a lot of time just going over options with them. And I go over it in a somatic way, like, hey, when I read this, how's that feel in your body? Are you curious? You want to know more? And just like watching the light bulbs go on, because nobody has ever asked these women, like, how do you want to feel before you have sex? How do you want to feel when you're having sex? And how do you want to feel after? Do you want to be held? You want to be left alone? Would you like a warm, wet towel? Do you want to talk about what just happened? Like, seal the fucking ritual, man. Like, don't just roll over and take a shower. It's not done. There's so many chemical things happening in the brain. You have to take care of that after.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. This is a podcast I did a long time ago, and it was with a somatic body worker. And she's like, think of the top three things you want to feel during sex. Now reverse engineer that and work towards doing things that make you feel those that way. And I was like, that's brilliant.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we don't get that in adult sex ed.

[B]

No. Well, we socialize young girls away from play at a very early age and pull them away from play. And play is adjacent to sex. So a lot of people are trying to just get to sex. I just need to get from doing this to do list and running around and doing kids and stuff. And then I need to feel sexy. And I'm like, can I get you to feel playful first? What, what, what is play?

[A]

Yeah, I don't have time for that. Okay, all right, that's good to know.

[B]

That's not productive. I have so much to do, Whitney. And I'm like, yeah, but play is your fuel to keep going.

[A]

This is my theory about stand up comedians. That they're not the most attractive of humans, by and large, but what they do is they make you laugh. And when you laugh, you relax. And when you laugh, you connect. And also it takes a decent amount of intelligence to make somebody laugh. So they've got brains. And I'm like, that's why these ugly ass comedians can get laid all the time.

[B]

For sure. It's hot.

[A]

It's hot.

[B]

They're also confident and that's sexy as fuck.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's what I find a lot of women want from their partners is like confidence, and they want them to be direct. And the other partner's like, yeah, but every time I initiate, you say, no. How am I supposed to be confident and direct? And I'm like, but you're not inviting her. You're intruding on her. You've stolen her autonomy. How she's supposed to feel free in her body. You're not even making her feel free in your approach. Right. It doesn't feel like a choice. Feels obligated, makes her tighten up, feel rigid. So, you know, instead you can be direct and be confident. Hey, I want you to go in the bedroom. Should take all your clothes off, and I'm gonna rub you from your neck down to your toes. No pressure. I just want to feel you melt in my hands.

[A]

She doesn't need to perform. She doesn't need to give them anything. It has to. Again, going back to, like the safety and security thing of it. It's like, it can't be a conversation.

[B]

No, you have to mean it. You have to mean it. You can show her desire, but don't make that her problem. Like, if she doesn't want to have sex that time, go jerk off. Like, I do it sometimes. That happens. But a lot of times what happens is we have some really great sex because she feels cherished, she feels respected, and she feels free. Like, set your partner free. That's how they can get into play. And like, that play aspect, it removes the objective because we bring so much performance into sex. Oh, it has to go like this anyhow. It has to look like that. I have to look like a porn star. I have to do this perfect. I have to get up on top and bounce up and down. And like, when it's two women and a strap on, I'm like, why are you bouncing up and down? Like, who's that fun for? Sit down and grind. Like, what are you doing? But, like, we all do this heteronormative dance.

[A]

What are you doing? Dispel the myth that same sex people have the exact same sex drive. Yeah.

[B]

No. Absolutely not.

[A]

Yeah. Because the stereotype is that it's obviously between a man and a woman, and obviously the man has the higher desire. It's like, it's not. No, that's not obvious.

[B]

Absolutely not. I've worked with straight couples where the man is the one with lower desire. I work with lesbian couples all the time where one of them just needs the wind to blow and she's ready. Like, her wife could walk across the room in the towel, and she's like, now, we do it now, right now, like this.

[A]

Boom.

[B]

Ready to go. And the other one's like, what are you talking about? I've got a million tabs open in my brain. It's the same stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, two women together, we don't understand each other any better. We just have more curiosity because we usually have shared traumas.

[A]

Ah, excellent. Let's talk about trauma. Informed approaches to all of this. Maybe it's an easy place to start is what's the shared trauma?

[B]

Patriarchal society. Yeah. You know, living in a world where, you know, you are not on top of the food chain. I mean, I've got it in layers. I'm a black queer woman. I'm visibly queer. So that makes it even different because I'm masculine in my features. So people look across her and be like, that's probably a queer person. Like, she's probably gay.

[A]

Way to help them out, Whitney.

[B]

Yeah. If you see my wife, you don't know. So her queerness is a little less visible, which in certain spaces feels safer. Whereas I'm clocking the room to make sure I'm safe. So that's one thing is like your hyper vigilance is ramped up, so you're on guard more often. So there's that at play against you. So those are things you have to take into account with trauma. You know, women just have higher percentages of sexual assault trauma. So a lot of what I do with clients is helping them create trigger plans. And trigger plan is like specialized aftercare for if you get like a body memory, you have a triggered reaction during sex. It's very important in that moment to stop what's happening and to put the aftercare that's been negotiated in place so that person can realize that the body memory that's coming through from that timeline, that that's not what's happening right now. And that way they can form new neural pathways and move forward from that. But we just do that slowly, keeping that person in the driver's seat. So it's a lot of just consent focused and checking in with each other.

[A]

I love it. Do you think that there is a trauma from just female bodies being raised in a society where your body is being used to market cheeseburgers, Toyotas, movies, music. Like to see your body represented as a piece of marketing and it's like, it's so ubiquitous, nobody stands back and actually looks at that. But it's like, what is that trauma doing to people who own those bodies? I don't know where the book is. I don't know where, but I'm like, it's not normal. And it's never been normal in all of human evolution to have a naked, large breasted, voiceless representation sell you chapstick. This is a real good story about Bronx and his dad Ryan, Real United Airlines customers. We were returning home and one of the flight attendants asked Bronx if he wanted to see the flight deck and meet Captain Andrew. I got to sit in the driver's seat. I grew up in an aviation family, and seeing Bronx kind of reminded me of myself when I was that age. That's Andrew, a real United pilot. These small interactions can shape a kid's future. It felt like I was the captain. Allowing my son to see the flight deck will stick with us forever. That's how good leads the way.

[B]

It's. It's wild. It makes it so hard to say the word pleasure on social media. They think you're talking about sex. Every time you just say pleasure, I'm like, well, I could be talking about chocolate. And it's like, yeah, but have you ever watch a chocolate commercial Indulgence or chocolate, you know, and it's dripping off of somebody's tits. You know, it's just like, well, shit. And then it makes you couple, like, shame and guilt with when you enjoy anything. Yes, I'm enjoying a cheeseburger. I feel bad. I'm enjoying this chocolate. I'm dirty.

[A]

Yeah, you're overindulgent, lustful.

[B]

I like sex. I'm a bad person, you know? And, like, lesbians go through that with wanting to hit on each other, but also not wanting to make the other woman feel like. Like, I don't want to be creepy because I know what it feels like for somebody to make me feel like that. And I always tell them, like, if you're concerned about being a creep, you're probably not being a creep. Creeps don't stop to wonder if they're being creepy.

[A]

Creeps start things that aren't seen. Creeps don't see themselves. It's super interesting to think, like, we've never had video in our face portraying bodies this way ever, in our entire existence. And it's like, dude, how is that not traumatizing to people?

[B]

It makes it hard because, like, then you have to try to come home to your own desires, but at the same time work through the guilt and shame that's entangled with it. It's like, I want this thing, but everything in me is being like, oh, that could harm you. Or, like, if it's religious indoctrination, you're like, I'm gonna go to hell. Even if you've uncoupled from that, that stuff is still there working on you.

[A]

Well, and I think all the, like, marketing for, like, even, like, the lube companies and stuff, like, am I supposed to like feathers? Am I supposed to like handcuffs? Am I supposed to like black wedged pillows? Like, you know, you get, like, all this inundated and it's like, you don't have any opportunity to be like, what do you actually like? And then you worry, like, is that normal? Because I don't see that represented. But, like, the ownership of your desires, the ownership of your body, the ownership of your pleasure, that's adult sex ed. And nobody gets taught that.

[B]

No. And I like the way Esther Perel goes about it. She's like, you know, what type of temperature of water do you like on your skin? You know, like, these are good questions when it comes to that. Like, how do you like sand, you know, between your toes? What kind of sand do you like? Coarse or soft or warm?

[A]

Over cold for sure, right?

[B]

I love soft sand. Like, love to go To Destin, Florida. Soft and white. And it's like, oh, this is supposed to be about your senses and connection. And we've made it about performance and how many orgasms. And you gotta have 3, 4, 5. And the pressure to have one. Because I feel like the orgasm gap, it's not helping us to talk about that because men are just looking at it as like a scoreboard. It's like, okay, I gotta get in there and I gotta make her come. And she.

[A]

Men only orgasm 97% of the time. There's a 3% leg we got to catch up on.

[B]

Yeah. So they're in there like pressuring the out of this woman to come. And she's like, let me just fake it. And it's like, get this over with because you're rubbing it like a lottery ticket.

[A]

Yeah, I have a problem with people. It's good, it's well meaning. But people are like, kelly, tell people why it's good to have an orgasm. And I'm like, listen, we've got data. We've got. It actually is very good for your body to have an orgasm. But even just saying like, well, you know, orgasms are good for you. To me it's very like an 8 fruits and vegetables and 64 ounces of water and 8 hours of sleep and 30 minutes of zone 2 cardio and an orgasm like it can. And I'm like, that's not what sex is.

[B]

No, it's so performative. It's like, okay, now we get in here and we gotta do this in order to be successful. But that's not satisfaction.

[A]

Yeah, an orgasm doesn't equal connection.

[B]

No, it doesn't equal pleasure. You can have an orgasm and it could feel awful.

[A]

Oh, let's talk about this. Because I started talking about this like very recently and I'm like, did we talk about this more? I don't have a male body. I can't speak to what male bodies are like. But in female bodies, the zone of arousal before orgasm is fantastic.

[B]

It's wonderful.

[A]

Let's just hang out there for a half a day.

[B]

Oh, my wife loves that. She'll tell me, I don't want to come yet. I don't want to.

[A]

Yeah, don't make this go away.

[B]

Yeah. She's like, this will go away if you do that. And then we'll have to build back to it. And I'm like, well, that's not a problem. But, but it becomes. The focus is to like drift her there as long as possible. And then we're, we're building. Like if that speaks to the men out there. Building. Don't you like to build, like building to just dance her there and they. It's just floating.

[A]

Nobody knows about that. That zone of wonderfulness that is before the orgasm. Like nobody's talking about that.

[B]

It's the best thing ever. And if you go too fast, you just rush past it. You miss it. And if you go too fast, the orgasm feels like, meh.

[A]

I describe it as light switchy. Like there are some toys that are so damn good at the orgasm job.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That you just have the orgasm and you're like, well, I could have been doing my taxes and had an orgasm with that toy. Right. But it's like that's not. Then it's not.

[B]

All the things, these Air Pulse toys. Yeah. I have to bounce them. You have to bounce it.

[A]

I know they're successful at their stated goal.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But you'll miss, you'll miss the whole other point of sex.

[B]

You miss basking. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Ooh, basking. Dude, nobody's talking about that zone.

[B]

They're gonna make an IG about that today.

[A]

We gotta roll with that one for sure. Let's talk about. Let's give some love to our responsive, responsive desire people.

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

They're normal.

[B]

So normal.

[A]

They're not broken.

[B]

You're not broken at all.

[A]

I think so many women sit around being like, I'm not turned on right now. I don't want it right now. So I guess that means I don't like sex. And I guess that means I'll never be turned on. Like they're waiting for the wind to blow and for desire to Spontaneous desire to swoop in. And that's not how it works.

[B]

No. I always tell them, you're waiting for a bus that's never coming. You're just going to be sitting at that stop. It's not coming.

[A]

You have to be an active participant and you have to be possibly led to the party. Make sure the party's a good time. The event happens at the party. The event doesn't happen down the road. Not at the party.

[B]

No. You have to bring seduction in and make that a part of interacting with each other. And like, seduction can be words, but it also can be things and environments. And it's like, is your bedroom even a place that reminds you of getting into that space? Like, is it an oasis? Is it a sanctuary? Do you still have like a 7 year old sleeping in your bed like a starfish? Because it's not sexy. It's not gonna.

[A]

That's a great image.

[B]

That's the reality. I've had to get the child that size out of my bed.

[A]

Sounds like somebody who might have experience with this.

[B]

I might have gone through these things.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You gotta get the kids out of your bedroom. And your bedroom needs to be a place where you can just decompress first, not be a reminder of, like, is there clothes everywhere? Is it. You know, reminders of things you need to do. So you gotta get those things out of the way. And are you playing together? Like, play first and then we can get to sex. I love it.

[A]

Let's give advice to late bloomers. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

[B]

Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that.

[A]

Fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law.

[B]

Not available in all states.

[A]

You sound like an early bloomer. You were purchasing books early on, but there are some late bloomers who are like, you know, maybe the first marriage was not sexual in a. In a loving way at all. Now they're done with that. They're like, I'm 56 and I don't know what I'm doing, and is it worth it? Maybe they've just met somebody and they're like, oh, my God, I don't want to admit I'm not a pro. How would you talk to the late bloomers?

[B]

Oh, yeah. So those are coming out later in life. Usually their concerns are like, I don't know what to do. And I'm like, okay, ask. You don't have to show up with all the knowledge. I mean, different clitoris is like different things. Some, like, direct, some, like, indirect. So if it's your first time you're making out, it comes to that time, just lay her back and be like, I want to see you touch yourself. Can we do that? I'm really curious about the way that you like to be touched. I want to do it right and just lean back and let her show you. Or better, give her your hand and say, put this where you want it, how you want it. Show me how to pleasure you. Now I get some directions. It's hot. It's sexy.

[A]

Nobody dies talking about sex.

[B]

No, no. Awkward. It's the first step to hot sex.

[A]

Being awkward is the first step to hot sex.

[B]

You gotta do it. You gotta be awkward. You gotta be silly. It's like that with the first kiss because Lesbians, they, they usually talk about that. Like, I, I think I missed the opportunity. And it's like if she is looking at your lips and then looking back up your eyes and then looking down at your lips, you can ask, hey, is this a good time to kiss or am I being silly? Am I being silly right now or was this a good time to kiss? Like, can you make it a joke? But like, be direct, Ask, break the tension.

[A]

That's so hot. Thank you so much for having so much fun with me today and talking about all the important things. Where can people find you and if they want to work with you, how do they connect?

[B]

Absolutely. You can find me on Instagram @bde moves and then you'll find my all my links there right there in my link tree on my profile. If you want to join my Patreon, if you want to work with me directly, I'd love to have you.

[A]

If they don't have Instagram, because I can't believe it, but some people do not.

[B]

Yes, you can come direct to my website, www.bde- moves.com Fantastic.

[A]

Thank you for coming and playing today.

[B]

Thanks, Kelly.

[A]

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of you are not Broken. If you want to dig deeper with me, sign up for my adult sex education masterclass where you learn adult things like communication skills, anatomy lessons and desire types, and how to talk to your doctor about sexual health concerns. If you want the adult sex education masterclass for free, join my monthly membership for more in depth exclusive content, more time with yours truly, a private podcast, coaching and educational empowerment and you can watch my interviews live and get them immediately without advertising. Head over to www.kellycaspersonmd.com for the membership and adult sex ed masterclass members get the master class for free. This podcast is presented solely for educational, entertainment and informational purposes only. I am a doctor, but not your doctor in this format and all of my platforms and guests, including on this podcast are not giving individual medical advice or practicing medicine. See in consult with your own care team for your individual needs and concerns. This podcast is not intended as a substitute for the care and advice of a physician, therapist or other qualified professional. This podcast does not constitute the practice of medicine, in case you were curious about that and no doctor patient relationship is formed. But I still love you. Using the information on this podcast or any of my platforms is at your own risk. Until next time, remember, you are not broken.