348. The Sex Doctors: AKA Two Urologists and a Sex Therapist Have A Chat

Summary

Podcast Summary: You Are Not Broken

Episode 348: The Sex Doctors – AKA Two Urologists and a Sex Therapist Have A Chat
Host: Dr. Kelly Casperson, MD
Guests: Dr. Abraham Morgentaler (Urologist), Dr. Marian Brandon (Sex Therapist)
Airdate: December 7, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this lively and insightful episode, Dr. Kelly Casperson welcomes Dr. Abraham Morgentaler and Dr. Marian Brandon—married co-hosts of The Sex Doctors podcast—for a wide-ranging conversation about the intersections of urology, sex therapy, medical myths, and the realities of sexual relationships in midlife and beyond. Blending personal anecdotes, evidence-based science, and candid humor, the trio breaks down how sexual health knowledge changes (or stubbornly lags) in the medical world, what people get wrong about men and women sexually, and how couples can navigate desire, boredom, and communication roadblocks.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing the Guests & Their Podcast

• The Sex Doctors podcast:
  • Six months old; celebrated for being short, playful, and grounded in science.
  • Kelly: “I’m obsessed with it. I love that it’s flirty and playful and brings hard science into actionable tips.” [01:45]
  • Guests reflect on their early podcasting journey with humor.

2. History & Evolution of Testosterone Wisdom

• Medical dogma on testosterone and prostate cancer:
  • Dr. Morgentaler recounts the origins of the myth that testosterone causes aggressive prostate cancer.
  • Cites misleading research from the 1940s-1980s, based on very limited and flawed patient data.
  • “It turned out amazingly that it was based on just one patient…” [05:03]
• Paradigm shift:
  • Modern medicine now recognizes informed consent and individualized risk-benefit analysis for testosterone therapy, even post-prostate cancer.
  • Kelly draws parallels to hormone counseling for breast cancer survivors.

3. Changing Medical Culture & Advocating for Women

• At the FDA:
  • Kelly shares her experience addressing the FDA, pushing for a female-dosed testosterone product without male-centric restrictions or DEA regulation.
  • “I asked for when we get the female dose testosterone, I want a DEA exclusion on this... This is not a nefarious performance enhancing drug.” [10:18–10:32]
• Obstacles & Real-world consequences:
  • Physicians are sometimes targeted for prescribing female-dose testosterone, an inefficient use of resources that chills good care.

4. Meeting & Collaboration: Origin Story

• How Drs. Morgentaler & Brandon met:
  • Met at a conference where Marian was inspired by Abraham’s contrarian, positive perspective on men’s sexuality.
  • Initially collaborated on academic writing before romantic involvement, complete with jokes about “physicians’ handwriting.” [15:11]

5. Male Orgasm Myths and Communication Gaps

• Do men fake orgasm?
  • Abraham: “In college studies, the numbers were huge. 20% plus...”
  • Motivations are similar to women: sparing feelings, ending an encounter, etc. [15:53–17:16]
  • Case study: helping a man with orgasm difficulty via associating sensory cues (French perfume) from formative sexual experiences.
  • Kelly: “A challenging thing... in a 10-minute visit, you can't get to the French perfume part...” [18:03]
• Doctors, time constraints, and referral culture:
  • Marian recommends physicians develop referral networks to sex therapists and specialists to address the nuances beyond generic advice.

6. Problematic Medical Advice & Myth Busting

• Common but poor advice:
  • Kelly relates that a major cancer center advised cancer survivors to use Crisco as a lubricant—drawing disbelief and laughter.
  • This highlights the gap between modern science (e.g., vaginal estrogen) and clinical guidance actually given. [19:18–19:50]
• Should testosterone be a screening test in men?
  • Abraham: “Every man who turns 30... should probably get a testosterone level.” [20:08]
  • Debunks the myth that blood draws must be before 9am; his studies show timing is mostly irrelevant outside very rare circumstances. [21:48–27:31]

7. Barriers for Women: Testing & Treatment

• Sexist lab practices:
  • Kelly reports a major US lab refused to check a female patient’s testosterone level simply because she was female, shifting excuses when challenged. [27:44–28:19]
• Call for simplification and sanity in hormone practice.

8. When Sex Gets Boring — What Now?

• Standard advice falls short:
  • Marian: “Try something new is everywhere, but eventually, people run out of things to try.”
  • Mindfulness is the secret weapon: focusing on body sensations creates a new experience each time, no matter the activity. [28:27–30:56]
• Epic quote: Kelly: “Buy a new piece of lingerie, which has probably solved zero people's problems long term, but is great for the lingerie industry.” [29:11]
• On mismatched adventurism in couples:
  • Marian suggests exploring new tech, VR porn, or toys for compromise when sexual curiosity/desire mismatches exist. Advocates for communication and creativity.

9. Good Sex Tech & Resources

• Sex toy and tech resources: Marian recommends sexualityresources.org, and Amazon for “a whole lot of stuff.” Her Psychology Today blog is also mentioned as a good general resource. [34:32]

10. Understanding Sexual Misconceptions in Men & Women

• What women get wrong about men:

  • Marian: “Women think men should be like they are... Men and women have different sexual instincts.”
  • Kelly: “We tend to think everyone thinks like us. But in sex, the whys are often very different.” [35:13–36:19]
  • Even in couples, partners often disagree on seemingly factual questions like “when did we last have sex?” [36:45]

• What men get wrong about themselves:

  • Abraham: “Men are supposed to always want sex, always perform. If not, both partners often assume something is wrong with the relationship or the man.”
  • Many men internalize erection or desire issues, not realizing how much environment and context (stress, for instance) matter. [37:12–38:46]

• Objectification and Desire:

  • Women often want to be desired but not objectified—“not a repository for your sexual need” [41:50]
  • Marian offers a nuanced perspective: the difference is in presence and connection, eye contact, not just the act itself. [39:37–41:15]
  • Abraham clarifies that this language is often foreign to men, who benefit from actionable, simplified feedback.

11. Wrap-Up: The Never-Ending Journey

• Sex, says Kelly, is a lifelong personal growth and spiritual journey—never the same topic twice. [43:53–44:29]
• Mutual appreciation closes the episode, with Kelly promising to keep supporting their podcast and teasing future collaborations.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I fell off my dinosaur to do some of that work.” – Dr. Abraham Morgentaler on his longevity in urology [03:00]
• “It was based on just one patient… followed for only 18 days.” – Dr. Morgentaler, exposing the weak foundation of testosterone-prostate cancer dogma [05:03]
• “We can change things. We can relook at the data… medicine is not set in stone.” – Dr. Kelly Casperson [08:12]
• “I want the DEA restriction off… I can’t make a woman a gold medalist pole vaulter by giving her physiologic female T doses.” – Dr. Kelly Casperson [10:18]
• “The average guy objectified me, he would think that was so... to them it’s like a gift.” – Dr. Marian Brandon on male desire for objectification, as fantasy [42:05]
• “There’s so much more to seduction than your genitals.” – Dr. Marian Brandon [41:01]
• “It’s not the flaw, it’s the default software.” – Dr. Kelly Casperson, on the wandering mind during sex [30:14]
• “A challenging thing... in a 10-minute visit, you can't get to the French perfume part.” – Dr. Kelly Casperson, on the time constraints in medical practice [18:03]
• “Try something new is everywhere, but eventually, people run out of things to try.” – Dr. Marian Brandon [28:28]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Introduction & Podcast Praise | 01:45–02:19 | | Testosterone History & Myths | 03:00–08:12 | | FDA Advocacy for Women & Testosterone | 09:10–11:28 | | Drs. Morgentaler & Brandon: How They Met | 13:01–15:13 | | Do Men Fake Orgasms? | 15:53–17:16 | | Systemic Issues: Poor Medical Advice | 19:18–19:50 | | Should Testosterone Be a Screening Test? | 20:08–21:48 | | Time of Day for Testosterone Testing | 22:10–27:31 | | Barriers for Women (Labs, Biased Practices) | 27:44–28:19 | | Sex Gets Boring? Mindfulness Over Novelty | 28:27–30:56 | | Adventurism Mismatches & Sex Tech | 31:52–34:04 | | What Women Get Wrong About Men | 35:13–36:16 | | What Men Get Wrong About Themselves | 37:12–38:46 | | Objectification and Connection | 39:37–41:58 | | Closing Reflections: Sex as Lifelong Journey | 43:53–44:29 |

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Resources Mentioned

• The Sex Doctors Podcast: Hosted by Drs. Abraham Morgentaler & Marian Brandon
• Sexuality Resources: sexualityresources.org
• Marian Brandon’s Blog: Psychology Today (search for Marian Brandon)

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a master class in bridging the science and humanity of sexuality, debunking outdated myths, and advocating for nuanced care and open-mindedness—whether inside the bedroom, physician’s office, or at the FDA. Kelly, Marian, and Abraham’s humor and candor demystify the medical and relational complexities of sex at every stage of life, reminding listeners: you are definitely not broken.

Transcript

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

This is a real good story about.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Bronx and his dad, Ryan, Real United Airlines customers.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

We were returning home and one of the flight attendants asked Bronx if he wanted to see the flight deck and.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Meet Kath and Andrew.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I got to sit in the driver's seat. I grew up in an aviation family, and seeing Bronx kind of reminded me of myself when I was that age.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

That's Andrew, a real United pilot.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

These small interactions can shape a kid's future. It felt like I was the captain.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Allowing my son to see the flight.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Deck will stick with us forever. That's how good leads the way.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Welcome to the you are Not Broken podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kelly Casperson, a board certified urologist, thought leader, and conversation starter on midlife living, hormones, and sexuality. Enjoy the show, everybody.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Welcome back to the you're not broken podcast. I have good friends. I'm gonna say they're new good friends, but we have Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler and Dr. Marian Brandon joining us today. It's not your first times, but it's your first times.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

This is true.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

And that's worth it right there.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

That's worth it right there. You guys are the dynamic dual behind the Sex Doctors podcast, which is a new podcast. Newish. Yeah. How long has it been out?

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Six months.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It's new. That's new in the podcast world. But the average podcaster doesn't get more than like seven episodes in. So you're already like, ahead of. Ahead of the people who get a good idea because it sounds like a really good idea. And then people are like, oh, it's actually work. And you're like, yeah, yeah, it's work. But I love your podcast. I'm obsessed with it. I follow all of them. I love that they're short. I love that there's a cat involved. I love that you guys are flirty with each other and it's like super playful and you bring good, hard science into easily explainable, tactical. What do you do with this plans?

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Well, thank you so much. It's very much an honor to hear you say that.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

You guys are gonna have dinner tonight and be like, oh, somebody likes our podcast. I feel so good.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Well, at least now we know that one person is. Listen.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

You'Re like, don't forget to go leave a five star review, Kelly. It's one. It'll be you. That's how my podcast started out, though. Like, my mom listened for six months and then. And then you just get better and better and better and you find your voice and you find. But I like I think you guys are nailing it out of the gate. It's just putting in the reps at this point.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Well, thank you so much, and it's great to be with you again.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Again. So for people who want to go back, previous episodes with Dr. Morgenthaler was 257. The title of that podcast episode is Testosterone. I like to keep things simple for people. And then, Dr. Brandon, was episode 242, Modern Sex Challenges still applicable, even though probably 2 of 42 is about a hundred episodes ago. So that's probably about two years ago that we did that.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Wow, you're rolling.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, time flies.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

It does.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Rolling.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

People see, like, the work that goes into, like the overnight success. So just gotta keep going. But you guys aren't an overnight success. You've been doing your craft for quite a while. Dr. Morgan Teller, you were doing your craft, like, back in the day when testosterone caused prostate cancer.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

So long ago, I fell off my dinosaur to do some of that work.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Well, yeah, because you were around in the time of lizards.

Because that's what your recent TEDx was about.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

That's how I got started with the lizards. They are like little diamond dinosaurs. So, you know my story, what I like about my story is that it was the beginning of what I think is really, in many ways, the modern era of urology and also the modern era of testosterone. You know, there was not. When I was in my training, nobody got testosterone. Everybody thought it caused prostate cancer. This is crazy. I was taught, all the residents were taught that if a man got an injection of testosterone today, he'd be back in a normal guy, healthy. He'd be back within a month with an aggressive prostate cancer.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Then that was dogma. Not rooted in meta analyses, not rooted in anything.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

And it's actually amazing how that came about. It's sort of like a case of broken telephone. There were two things. One is that Charles Huggins, who was awarded the Nobel Prize in 1960, was a urologist.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Urologists like our one Nobel Prize winner. Or maybe we have two.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

There's a second one named Forsman, but he who became a urologist. But what he got the Nobel Prize for was he stuck a wire in his veins and he got it to his heart. And he went and he got. Went to X ray and he took an X ray and showed that the wire could connect and it became the mechanism for people doing cardiac catheterization.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

That's a big deal. Apparently Swan Ganz, for the Swan Ganz catheter was on a sailboat when he got the inspiration for the Swan Ganz catheter and how they could get it to, like, sail through to get to the heart.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Yeah, yeah. So there are two things. So Huggins wrote in 1941 that if you gave testosterone, that it made metastatic prostate cancer worse. He looked only in guys with metastatic cancer, and he based that on acid phosphatase results. We don't use acid phosphatase anymore because it's not very good. Once PSA came in, we got rid of acid phosphatase. It bounces all over. And it turned out amazingly that it was based on just one patient who was not yet castrated. It's an unbelievable story followed for only 18 days. And then the second piece of information that people confused and put together was that there was another paper that came out in 1981, I think it was by Fowler and Whitmore. And that was a group of a set of studies from Memorial Sloan Kettering. And they had all these different protocols, and they looked at everybody that got testosterone who had metastatic cancer. And because they had different protocols and different ways of measuring, they said, let's just use the term an unfavorable response, which could be a whole variety of things, including a rise in acid phosphatase because PSA wasn't around yet. It could be pain. It could be anything like that. And they looked at men who also had been, almost all of them castrated already. And they said, at one month, what percent of these guys have something bad? And it was a high percentage was 45 out of 52 guys. But those were guys with metastatic cancer. Now, as an aside, and your audience may appreciate this, is that all but four of those 52 men had already been castrated. There were only four guys who were not yet castrated.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

And back then, they surgically removed testicles. There was not a medication. There's not medical castration. This is, we removed your testicles.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Right. And I did that at the beginning of my career, too. We didn't have the medicines like Lupron. Anyway. The four guys who were hormonally okay, intact still had their testicles. The three of them got testosterone for very long periods of time. Nothing happened to them. This is men with metastatic cancer. But so what people did is they put together this mishmash. Both of them were thought to be true. One was, Huggins said, testosterone makes metastatic cancer worse. The other one said, within one month, unfavorable response. But of course, they were all castrated. So if we give testosterone To a normal guy, he'll get prostate cancer, which was never checked in any of them, and it'll be aggressive cancer, and it'll happen in one month. But that's how everything. When we are so afraid of testosterone, that's how it all went.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

And now. So when I was in training, we wouldn't give testosterone to a treated or cured man with prostate cancer. And now we're of informed consent for everybody, Risk, benefits, blah, blah, blah. But now we will consider testosterone replacement if your testosterone is low in men who are on active surveillance, meaning low grade, low risk, risk of treating will cause more side effects than risk of keeping it there. But if you have low testosterone, we're going to replete it because it's low and you're symptomatic. So we've come a long way with testosterone and prostate cancer.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Such a long way.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. I always take it to breast cancer because we, like, the quality of life in these women is some of the worst, most poorly treated quality of life in medicine, probably. And I'm like, listen, we can change things. We can re look at the data. And the same thing with breast cancer. There's like, you saying there's like four patients in breast cancer. There's literally like 23 patients on which we have actual data. And that's why we say women can't be on hormones post breast cancer. So, like, I always use the prostate cancer, testosterone as, like, things change. We can reanalyze data, we can do more studies, we can consider risks and benefits and quality of life. Because I think so many people think medicine is set in stone, and it's not set in stone. It is moving and evolving, and we're always learning.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Right. Sometimes more slowly than we thought.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Well, yeah, there's that JAMA article that takes 17 years for, like, you know, good air quote, good data to get from the research paper into clinical practice.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

But let's talk about changing medicine for a second. So Dr. Kelly Casperson was at the FDA.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I was just at the FDA.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Very recent. I know. I'm talking about you, actually.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Oh, yes. Yeah, I was there, too. Yeah. No, it was like. It was so. It was very trippy to get to the place where your name tag is on the scene seat, and you're like, my name is at this seat because I'm the best person in the country to be talking about this right now.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

And not just any seat. That's an important seat. So when you're being able to speak to the people in power who know.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Less about this than you It's. I mean, it's cool, right? Like, they can't know everything about everything. And for them to say, let's bring in the people who study this and learn from them. I love that. I love that they did that. Yeah.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

And the day.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

So one of the things I asked for because I'm like, you know, when you have the chance to go to the moon, like, bring the party is one of the things I asked for is when we get the female dose testosterone product. Not if, but when. I don't want it FDA approved for low libido. It's not what men have it approved for. And they'll have insurance issues with that. And doctors can't talk about sex.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Right.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

So Dr. Judgment with that. Like, we can't have it FDA approved for low libido. And I want the DEA restriction off of it because I can't make a woman a gold medalist pole vaulter by giving her physiologic female tea doses.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Kelly, that's brilliant.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Thank you. And I think it's a much more realistic ask than just deregulating testosterone in general. And I have had, I know DEA people have gone to physicians houses for prescribing female dose testosterone.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Wow.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

And I'm like, what a waste of resources, man. So you hear that? And you're like, dude, this is not the best use of your time.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

And how chilling.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Oh, God, it's awful. It's awful, right? So I'm like, I asked for that. I said, when we get the female dose testosterone, I want a DEA exclusion on this. Then we'll fight the fight of should a male level testosterone be deregulated? Many people say yes, but for the female dose, I'm like, that's not a nefarious performance enhancing drug at this point in those doses. And right after that talk, because Dr. Marty Makary didn't know these things, he went and had a DEA meeting. Like, the DEA meeting was scheduled right after that talk was given. So we'll see.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

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[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Well, you were. You did it. You did a phenomenal job. I listened to all of. I missed the first two minutes or so and then I listened to all of it. It was excellent.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Thank you. And for anybody who's interested, if you go on YouTube and the FDA's YouTube channel, you can watch the full two hours there. My five minute talk is on my YouTube channel for people to go back and see. See what the heck we're talking about. I want to go back, if we can, for a second. Now that I have both of you here, how did you guys meet?

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

He was, he was lecturing at one of my conferences and I was like, oh my gosh. So like.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

You got like the tingles.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

I was like, I gotta connect with this guy.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. Awesome. So did you connect at the conference?

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Well, I tried to get his attention, you know, raise my hand.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

There was this beautiful woman sitting in the front row and she raised her hand to ask a question when I was done. It's an organization for sex therapists. What's it called? Was it Star?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, Star, which I hear they're excellent.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Uh huh. They are.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

The conferences. Yeah.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

And it was an interesting conference because I'd written a book which had come out which was what got me the invitation there. The book was originally called why Men Fake It.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Nice.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

In paperback, it's now out as the Truth about Men and Sex. And. And I take a very positive view of men. Much more positive than they're described in, in our culture.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Thank you for providing the counterpoint. Every argument needs a counterpoint.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Yeah. And what guys say behind closed doors is something that's very different from the stereotype of the 18 year old or 19 year old on spring break. Right. So guys are trying hard to be good partners, good sexual partners, providers in a way. On, you know, in terms of sex. It may be misguided, but that's how they're thinking. And in this group where we met, there was a lot of anti male sentiment.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Sure, it's trending right now.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

That's exactly right.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

But Dr. Brandon was there in the front row. And she seemed really quite supportive of my point of view. So we connected and chatted and exchanged numbers. And before anything romantic happened, we actually wrote a paper together.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I'm sure many romances have started over an academic paper. That's awesome.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

We were just laughing about this paper.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

That we were writing.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

And I had written up, you know, an outline and filled it in based on what we had discussed. And as is typically the case for him, when he sees, like someone's outline for a paper or a lecture, whatever, slash, slash, slash.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It's the best part, editing.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

He destroyed it. And then he wrote in this little chicken scratch what should be said in there in the document. And I couldn't even read his writing, so I'm trying really hard to decipher. And he asked me, well, can you read my writing now?

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

No, I actually.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Actually still can't.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

I have physicians handwriting. It's a syndrome.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

No, it's a genetic disorder, probably. Yeah, it can. It cannot be cured. No matter how many electronic medical records.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

There are, it cannot be a requirement to enter medical schools. Used to have unintelligible writing.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, well, they don't. They probably don't screen for that anymore because it's all electronic.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

No, now it's all. Now it's all taken.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, totally. So what percentage of men fake orgasm?

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Ah, that's hard to say. But they did studies in college kids, and the numbers were huge. It was like 20% plus of college males.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

At least one time.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

At least once, right? It's a substantial number of men. And the curious thing is, why do men fake it? And they do it for the same reason women do, kind of say, good job. You did good. Let's put an end to the activities for tonight. Let's get some rest. It was the key story in that book. At least one chapter in the book. And when I first the guy, it was a young man in his 20s who came to see me. And at that time I didn't know that men could fake orgasms. I never heard of it. I'd been practicing sexual medicine for quite a number of years already. And the guy came in and his story was that he couldn't actually have an orgasm with intercourse. So he was dating. And while he was dating without being seriously involved with anybody, he felt like he was a study. He could just keep going forever. And then when things were over, he would take care of himself. And then as things happened, he fell in love. And that was his undoing because then he started feeling his girlfriend, started feeling Bad about herself.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. Which is what women are want to do. We want to make it mean something about ourselves. Negatively, usually.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Yeah. So he started faking his orgasm so that she would feel okay about herself. Right.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

So what did you do? We didn't have medications like Addie.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

No, no, we didn't. And so I put on my psychology hat and my sexual medicine hat and the question really was about what was it that got him excited and where did. How did he have his first ever orgasm, which happened to be when he was in France as a, I forget, 13 year old or something like that. And the smells and the French perfume was something that he remembers and associates with that. And so he had his girlfriend, I had, get his girlfriend to start wearing some French perfume and it worked for him.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I love that. This is a very challenging thing, I think for the average doctor when you have a 10 minute patient visit, like you can't get to the French perfume part right, like ever. And here we are being like, well, does he need more Viagra? Does he need less Viagra? Does he need to stop porn? Does he need therapy? Like what does he need? But it's like sometimes the answers are not one size fits all.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

So, you know, I often encourage physicians to have a sort of pre selected group they work within, like a therapist and other folks so that they don't feel so afraid of asking these questions because they're. Not only do they not have the time, but they may not have even the information on how to approach treatment. So if they have a treatment team that they can rely on, it allows them to be more free. I think in inquiring about these sorts of things.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I think that's such a much better answer than the shit doctors actually say to people, which to me I'm like, that could be like a picture book I would do someday is like the shit doctors say to people and like it's really bad. I just heard today, this, like earlier today that a prominent cancer center on the east coast is recommending cancer survivors use Crisco for sex.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Are you kidding?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

No, I can't. I can't make this shit up. Like this has to be real life to be so ridiculous. So I'm like, oh, you know, there's really good data on like vaginal estrogen, especially even for cancer survivors. Like we can actually treat the physiologic problem and not and keep the Crisco on the shelves.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Crisco's what, like lard, right?

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, it's like kind of like a synthetic, like a shelf stable Yeah, I.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Didn'T even know that was still made.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, right. Like, it's. It's not good for you. We don't even cook with it anymore. Do not put it on your vulva.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Oh, I can't imagine.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I know. So, yeah, it's a much better answer. One of your recent podcasts was talking about low testosterone being a risk factor for prostate cancer. And I want to segue that into. Do you think we should be screening men for low testosterone?

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Listen, I think every man turns 30 or so should probably get a testosterone level.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Thank you. Do they need to get it before 9am? No, but what if insurance won't let you have testosterone because you got your lab at 9:04? Right.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Well, then maybe you need to get it to have insurance pay for it. But you don't need it for biological reasons. You need a blood test. And I think testosterone is the single most important blood test a man can have. And what I mean by important is that it tells us so much about what's going on in the body. Right. So that a low level of testosterone is predictive of all sorts of things that we care about, like obesity, diabetes. There's evidence that metabolic syndrome, mental health, dementia. I mean, it depends what age we're talking about. Right? Fertility, sexual function. There's no other blood test that's like that. Right. Like, everybody gets a glucose. Okay, that's good for diabetes, crp, okay. That's good for inflammation, whatever may be doing it. You get a cholesterol, it's good for cholesterol. But testosterone is reflective. It's certainly in the men. There's less work with this in women, but certainly in the men of a whole host of medical conditions that are important to know about.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. I think it's ridiculous that nobody has put that forward as a screening guideline recommendation. Or maybe they have and just nobody's taking it up. But I'm like, we check a blood pressure. Medicare requires a blood pressure at every visit. Not everybody has high blood pressure, but we want to look for it, and especially the association with mental health. Like, we have a mental health crisis in this country, and low testosterone is associated with depression as a screening tool for depression, which we don't otherwise have. A screening tool for depression besides a questionnaire.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Yeah.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Can I backtrack? Because this is, I think, interesting is I asked Abe fairly recently. Well, why do you say it doesn't matter what time the testosterone level is drawn? Because everyone else says it absolutely matters. You know, are you back in the dark ages? Like, why do you still say this, and he did some really interesting research himself on this issue.

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[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Yeah, so, so you know, the whole testosterone field is filled with what I call lore. L O R e. So it turns out that for young men, young healthy men, which means non obese, no medical issues, what's clear is they have a higher level of testosterone in the morning than in the late afternoon. And that stuff's been shown. And for older men it's also true. Higher in the morning, lower in the late afternoon or early evening. And then it rises again while we sleep. And people have said, okay then, so you have to get it in the morning when the testosterone level is highest. So first of all, if you wanted to do an EKG to find out if somebody has heart disease, would you do it when they're lying quietly at rest? Or maybe you might have them exercise.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

You want to catch it. If they have it, you want to catch it, right?

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

So you don't. So if you do it in the morning when the levels are highest, you're going to have the lowest yield of finding something that might be consistent with what the clinical pictures. The second thing is, is that the studies that were done, they're all very small studies where they do the 24 hour testosterone because it's hard to keep people in overnight. Right. And measure their blood every hour or A few hours. So they're like done in like 14 people, 12 people. Those are the numbers they have those published studies that everybody says, oh, look at how amazing the diurnal variation is. Highest in the morning, less at night. Were all in the super fit. They were only in the studies. No medications, non obese, no medical issues. That's not who we see in our practices. Right. So I did a study together with my group where we also kept people in over 24 hours and measured their testosterone every. I think it was three hours, every three or four hours and over 24 hours. And it turned out that if your levels were low below 300, there was no diurnal variation at all. If your levels were above, if you had a normal testosterone to begin with, there was diurnal variation, which we know, but not nearly as now. These were unselected people. I mean, like we didn't care if they were on meds or not. Many of them were overweight. And so there was diurnal variation, but it was blunted. But a very important study. I was also involved with David Crawford as the first author. This was from back in the day when we thought we were going to.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Was it E. David Crawford?

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Yeah, E. David Crawford, edc.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I love E. David Crawford.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Yeah, we love E. David Crawford.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I don't know if David Crawford listens. E. David Crawford, are you listening right now? If so, we love you.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Well, maybe we need to wake him up. Tell me to listen.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

So he started what was called Prostate Cancer Awareness Week. So we thought we had this new blood test. We were going to cure the world of prostate cancer. And urologists around the country volunteered their time to open up their clinics. It was usually one week. We do a few evenings or something. Some people did in the day and they got a blood test and somebody paid. I think there was a grant to pay for PSA checking. And David at some point became interested in testosterone and added testosterone to those blood tests. So what we had was 3,000 men, 3,001, I think from all over the United States. We knew the time of day that their blood tests were being measured and what. And they all had to be over than older than 40. So it was really PSA screening, right, for prostate cancer. So in that group of men, unselected, except that they showed up for Prostate Cancer Awareness Week, free screening, the serum testosterone was no different between 6am and 10am, 10am to 12pm, 12pm to 2pm, it's just flat from 2pm to 6pm that time slot. It Went down a little bit by about 13%. So it's something. But what it really meant was that for our average guy, that we're checking a testosterone level on your average American.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Of the age that comes in with, hey, doc, I'm not feeling like myself.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Between 6am and 2pm There is not one minuscule difference in their average testosterone.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I love that. I love like that myth busting.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

And if you've got low testosterone, the diurnal variation is off. You don't have it.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

If you have borderline low testosterone, why aren't we trying to catch it? You know, it's 3:04 at 8:00am they're like, you can't have testosterone because your testosterone's normal.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, there's some people who believe that.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Oh. So I just had a provider reach out to me that she sent a woman to a lab, one of the big lab companies, and they refused to check her testosterone because she was female.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Oh, my goodness.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I know. It's like, again, it'll go in my book of like the shit people say to women. And so the doctor called him on it of like, you know, there's conditions in women where they have high testosterone and low testosterone and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they switch and they're like, oh, well, maybe it wasn't because she was a woman. Maybe it was because it was 10am and they kept moving the reason why they refused this person. And I'm like, you guys just check a effing testosterone. You can stop over complicating all of this.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Yeah. It's not that complicated.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It's not that complicated. Right. Yeah. Let's switch gears for a second and give us some help. When sex gets boring.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

So I think that's more my wheelhouse. Yeah. So I would say Moria Teller's like.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I've never been bored.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Pass.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Yeah. We're gonna leave the personnel out of this. We're speaking purely professionally.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Purely your. Your academic pursuit.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Purely professionally.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Oh, that's okay. So when sex gets boring, which happens for a whole lot of folks, instead of getting overreacting and saying, oh, my God, like, our sex life is over, it's boring. A couple of things. One is mindfulness is critical in this situation. So what you're going to see here when you open a magazine about this issue is they're going to say, try something new.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Buy a new piece of lingerie, which has probably solved zero people's problems long term, but is great for the lingerie industry.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

That's true. And the Other problem is, generally people have already tried something new and they've run out of things to try. Right. Everybody has their sort of limit of what they're willing to do or what sounds interesting. So even if people are trying something new, they're done with the lingerie after a while, and there's nothing else they want to try.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. They're like, this is itchy. Yeah.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

And you know, you have to hand wash it.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Like, who's going to. I don't not have time for the maintenance.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

No, exactly. And here's where mindfulness comes in. So helpful. Learning mindfulness meditation, particularly that kind of meditation, which you can easily do by getting an app. Not that it's easy. It's not easy, but you can easily get an app and start practicing. But what it teaches you is, you know, your brain's gonna, like, go in different places and think negative thoughts or whatever. That's what brains are designed to do.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Right. It's not the flaw. It's the default software.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Exactly. That's the software. So we can't expect it not to happen. And it happens at all times, including sex. But if you learn to focus on your body, like with mindfulness, you learn things like focusing on your breath in spite of what your brain's doing. If you bring that mindfulness to even the same activity you do every day for your entire life, it's a new activity because you've never been in that moment before. You've never had that particular experience. So that in and of itself can go really far. You don't have to always be doing something new. If you're present in that moment, it's a new moment.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I love that. It was like, you know how the Buddhists say, like, washing the dishes is the whole point? Right. Because, like, washing the dishes is a huge sensory experience, actually, if you're paying attention to it.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Isn't that right? That's right. And so I would also say to people, when they're practicing their mindfulness, and even if they feel like it's an epic fail every day, when they're doing in their five or ten minutes of mindfulness and they feel like they're failing, they're still learning something. They're definitely learning something. So it's not like you feel like you're successful at it. That's not that kind of thing.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Right. Don't do it once and be like, I should be good now. Right. It's a lifelong practice. Okay, so what do you do if we say, like, adventuresome mismatch in a long Term relationship. So somebody's very fine with like boiled chicken for dinner every single night. And the other person's like, I cannot eat another effing chicken meal to save my life. I need some like rigatoni and some dessert. And like a breakfast would be good, right? And those people are like trying to have sex with each other. How do you work with that couple?

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Okay, so that is so common. Probably most couples can say, you know, this person wants to do this and this person does not. So of course communication and talking it through. I mean there's no substitute for communication and seeing if you can find some middle ground. And sometimes you can. But I tell you what I look to do if it's possible, if people are open minded, how we might bring in VR porn or some new tech that can kind of simulate in some way this behavior and give one person the experience of it while keeping pressure off the other to have to do it. So if they can bring some. There's so much new tech out there today. Different sex toys that mimic different sensations. Like, so I as a therapist will look to see if there's anything in that realm that we could use to kind of find a compromise. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But there is this whole new array of stuff that can be useful for some couples.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

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[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

This is so fascinating and I think a lot of people fear where to go. For good knowledge of like where do you have a. Do you have like resources on your website for like what's up and coming with sex tech or like, where can.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

People go is they should get Marianne's Psychology Today blog.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Well, that's very kind. I love that he says that.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Also see also the Sex Doctors podcast.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Yeah, the Sex Doctors podcast. Thank you so much.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

My blog is very close to my heart. I appreciate.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

No, it's a great place for it.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

But I think that, like, specifics in terms of like sex toys, I don't necessarily cover that. I don't know if people know this. You can go on Amazon and find a whole lot of stuff. Like a whole lot. Just good old Amazon.com. so there is a website that I like, Sexuality Resources. I think it's dot org. It's got a lot of information and they're very gender friendly in terms of what toys are best for this person with this body trying to achieve this. So they have great information. It's run by a gynecologist and her sex therapist wife. It's just really great. So I think it's sexualityresources.org for sure.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Okay, so what do you say? We're going to gender stereotype a little bit here, but it's for the common good. What do women get wrong about men and sex?

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Oh, can I. I mean, women think men should be like they are in sex and they're actually men and women are. They have different sexual instincts. So from an evolutionary perspective, they have different, like, instinctive drives. We're all the same sexually in terms of like wanting to be loved, wanting to feel good, like wanting to love someone else. So for the most part, most of what we all want sexually is very similar. But there's this small instinctive piece of sex that is different for men and women. And so women expect guys should have the same libido as them. They should, you know, they should like the same stuff, but it shouldn't get too out there. We are stereotyping, but that's kind of what I hear. And the truth of the matter is they're very different when it comes down to like primal kinds of sex.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I mean, I think it's very good for people to know.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Because we all, I think it's like, you know, that's just again, a brain software problem is like we kind of think that everybody thinks like us and we're like, well, you're in the same house as me. But we don't think the same about this. No, like the big insight is like, if you ask your partner what, you know, why they like sex or what do they get out of sex, like their why? And then you ask the other partner and you're like, you guys are sleeping together in the same house and you didn't know that answer about each other. And they're like different reasons. That's insightful, sort of.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Similarly, what surprised me when I first became a sex therapist, I would say, when did you last have sex? And they would never agree.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

They never do.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Try it yourself. Ask your dad.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

No way.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Yeah. And so I learned fast and early that people are just not going to agree about anything. They can't even agree about something as obvious as it could be.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

A more factual. That could be an evidence based thing.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

I think that from the male point of view, having seen really exclusively male patients over the years, one thing that women get wrong is something that men also get wrong. They both get it wrong. Until they become a patient with a problem, which is that men are supposed to always want sex. They're supposed to always be able to get it up.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

If they can't, that means there's something wrong with the woman, or she's unlovable, or there's an affair, I'm stereotyping. But she will internalize it as something very negative about her or the relationship. Not that it's like, could be a biologic pump problem that does happen.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

But it also happens that the men feel like there's something wrong with them if they don't match up to that. And, you know, it's most of what I learned about sex, sexuality, I learned from my patients.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

I learned from lizards.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

I learned from lizards. Lizards. And, and my patients. And I remember I had this one guy who came to see me early years for Ed, and we were just talking and at some point he volunteers for me that he and his wife go to the country on the weekends. And when he goes to the country, he's not stressed, he's not thinking about work, and there's no problem with sex. It came out way at the end of this whole conversation. And of course, if he's able to have sex in the country at his country house with his wife, same partner and everything's fine, it means there's not a plumbing problem. But he didn't put two and two together and he thought there was something that was physically wrong with him. And a lot of the guys feel like somehow they're letting down their partner if they're not always ready to go, if they're not always able to get an erection.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, I love that. I think that's, it's really good. I mean, it just normalizes everything for Everybody of like, hey, hey, we're all human. Like, let's take a deep breath about things. I think one of the things that women don't want from men, we want to be desired, but we do not want to be objects. We do not want to be repositories for your sexual need. It's a Venn diagram that overlaps. We want to be desired by you, but when it turns into you using us for your sexual need and us not feeling like it's for us, it's a huge turnoff.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

I think that that's very fair. I would add some nuances, but I don't even think we don't necessarily need to go there. I think that overall that's a very fair statement.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. Because I think it's just, like, subtle shifts in perception and communication that can fix that problem.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Yeah. And presence and embodiment. So if, in this case scenario that you're describing, if the guy is sort of, like, more present in his own body than in his partner's body, she's gonna feel objectified. But if he's that same guy, but he's really present with eye contact, like in her body. And I'm not even talking touching. I'm talking, like, looking. Like, the experience of the guy in the room, if he's more present with her than himself, she's gonna actually probably like that objectification. It's up to where his sort of energy is. If he's like. If his energy, for lack of a better term, is really just in his pelvis, she's going to feel like she's being used. If his energy is in this connection.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. She's going to be like, let's do this all the time, please. Yeah, all the. All the time would be reasonable.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

So on behalf of all the guys out there. This language is a little foreign for guys.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Yeah.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Like, that's a very subtle point that I don't think. Do you want to say more to help the guys?

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Sure. Well, the way, like, I would describe it, I guess, in. In my room, is you can enter a woman if she wants to be entered through her eyes. If she doesn't wanna be entered, that's not gonna feel good. So we have to, like, recognize that. But that means simply take your time to get to that point. You don't just, like, slam right into this, like, without prep.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

There's so much more to seduction than your genitals and her genitals. And if it's slowed down enough, and if he's present enough with her, she's probably gonna really enjoy it.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

I just wanna say I understand you because we've been having this conversation one way or another.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

We met at a sex conference about a decade ago.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

But I do wanna, I just do wanna point out. Cause I. I always feel like I need to stand up for the guys, so.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Please do.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

The guys don't have the same language that women do, by and large.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Fair.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

We don't have the subtleties of language. We don't have the nuance. And so for the guys, simplifying that works for guys. I'm not saying guys are simple, but they say so. Wait a second. You two are saying women want to be desired, but you don't want to be desired.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

We don't want to be objectified or a repository for semen.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

I. I get it.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Just to be clear.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

But you see the confusion for guys.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Well, thank you for helping us be specific.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

You know what else? Like, I think guys would like, love to be objectified. The average guy objectified me. If his partner objectified her, he would think that was so. To them it's like a gift. Like, because if she was doing it to him, it would be a gift.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

As a fantasy, I think in real life it wouldn't work out so well on a regular basis. But as a fantasy, I think that's great. If it happened once in a while, sure. She just wants to use me for my body. I volunteer my body for kind of science.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Well, yeah. And I think the same. I think the same for any gender. Just as long as it's not all the time. That that's. I feel like I'm just here versus I'm with you. Even as simple as like, I want you for you. Yeah, I want you because you turned me on. Think your lashes have hit their limit. Discover limitless length and full volume with Maybelline Sky High Mascara. The Flex Tower Brush bends to volumize and extend. Extend every single lash from root to tip. And the lightweight bamboo infused formula makes lashes feel weightless. Now in eight bold shades so you can take your lashes to new heights every day. Visit maybelline.com to shop Sky High Mascara Now.

Simple clarity sentences. Because otherwise she's internalizing like, he just needs to get his sexual fix tonight. Right? She's internalizing it. Whether or not he understands that of like, I want you for you. She's like, hell yeah.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

So what I would say to the guys taking what you just said is when the guys are totally in their own head, it doesn't work well for their female Partner, which is a huge.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Problem for all of us, I think, these days, is we're so far in our heads just with, you know, technology and just not being in our bodies. Like our lives don't include presence in our bodies very much.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that, I mean, that's why sex is such a personal growth platform and like spiritual platform and all the things that it is is like, it's not just a certain angle of the pelvis all the time. It's not just a pump. Right. Like, it's not just. Everybody's like, what's the right lube? And I'm like, it's not always just about what the right lube is like. There's a lot to this topic.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Crisco, apparently.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah, Crisco, apparently, if you're a preeminent cancer center on the East Coast. But yeah, no, I love it. I mean, this is why, you know, you're going to have a podcast until you want to stop podcasting. And I'm going on year six of this. I was like, this is a never ending topic of fascination and people who can communicate it.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Well, Kelly, we can't wait to have you on our podcast.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

It's going to be great.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

It could be something like this. So we get to ask you the questions.

[Dr. Kelly Casperson]

Yeah. Sometimes I'm like, what am I doing today? Am I the interviewer or the interviewee? I love it. I'm going to share your podcast and I will keep sharing your podcast. Please keep showing up and doing it because you are at the very beginning of your podcast empire and I'm very, very happy to support you and thank you for coming on my podcast today.

[Dr. Marian Brandon]

Oh, super fun. Thank you so much, Kelly.

[Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler]

Great to be with you.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of youf Are Not Broken. If you want to dig deeper with me, sign up for my Adult Sex Education Masterclass where you learn adult things like communication skills, anatomy lessons and desire types, and how to talk to your doctor about sexual health concerns. If you want the Adult Sex Education Masterclass for free, join my monthly membership for more in depth, exclusive content, more time with yours truly. A private podcast, coaching and educational empowerment. And you can watch my interviews live and get them immediately without advertising. Head over to www.kellycaspersonmd.com for the membership and Adult Sex Ed Masterclass members. Get the Masterclass for free. This podcast is presented solely for educational, entertainment and informational purposes only. I am a doctor, but not your doctor in this format and all of my platforms and guests, including on this podcast are not giving individual medical advice or practicing medicine. See and consult with your own care team for your individual needs and concerns. This podcast is not intended as a substitute for the care and advice of a physician, therapist or other qualified professional. This podcast does not constitute the practice of medicine, in case you were curious about that and no doctor patient relationship is formed. But I still love you. Using the information on this podcast or any of my platforms is at your own risk. Until next time, Remember you are not broken.