Dr. Lisa Miller (2:02)

So I will tell you that when I join you. I couldn't wait to join you here today because your Ferrari reality has stayed with me. And from the view of science where I spend my time, which is spirituality and the science of human spirituality, but foremost, women's spirituality. We are indeed Ferraris. We are spiritual Ferraris, which should be

Halle (2:27)

the name of your next book, Spiritual Ferraris. I think that will sell well on the bookshelf.

Dr. Lisa Miller (2:31)

Well, it's who we really are. So people know the truth and there's science behind it. You know, a lot of people start to say in midlife, I start to feel depressed, I start to feel not enough. Or we come to know ourselves as just this wad of symptoms. But midlife is actually a transitional, really profound awakening for women. For women every time our bodies change head to toe. But primarily in terms of the women's reproductive cycle, we grow immensely spiritually. So can I back it up?

Halle (3:06)

I mean, I think we should back way up. Like, what the hell? Spirituality.

Dr. Lisa Miller (3:09)

Okay, good, good. So can I tell it from the view of science?

Halle (3:15)

Yeah, yeah. Because I want people to know what you're standing on when you make these claims. Meaning We've got a PhD in neuroscience and you didn't start thinking you wanted to study spirituality. So I kind of want to know that. I want to know that journey too.

Dr. Lisa Miller (3:32)

Okay. The backstory. So thank you, Kelly. So I am a 25 year pushing, 30 year clinical scientist, a professor at Columbia University. And the entire time I've studied one thing passionately, which is the scientific lens onto innate human spirituality and how it changes everything else in our lives. And to look through the scientific lens at human spirituality, I've used every lens I can get my hand on. So MRI studies, both structural and functional, long term clinical course studies. How do we do if we're more spiritual? Twin studies looking to see if it's inborn or just environmentally formed. All these different lenses for 30 years, and taken together, I now have about 200 peer review articles. Every single one of them is on spirituality. And together with others in the field, we really do have a robust scientific story about who we really are from a spiritual perspective.

Halle (4:34)

Data and the science has been around long enough at this point where the people who know aren't like, we're not sure yet exactly. They're like, we know now this is. And now our job is to get that information out because things don't do no good behind paywalls.

Dr. Lisa Miller (4:51)

Hear hear. Hear, hear. And I would even say that the science is so clear and the signal is so strong that it's almost blinding. It's so profound. So let me give you a little taste of this. Okay? When we strengthen our spiritual life, and this can be true whether I'm religious or not religious, it can be true whether I'm Catholic or Hindu or Jewish or Christian or spiritual and not religious. But whether or not we're religious, when we strengthen our spiritual life, which means talk to our higher power, which means Meditate or pray, which means go into nature not just because it's pretty, but have a deeper nature of life relationship with nature. When we live as the open system, we're built to be in relationship to the force of life, who I call God. But you use any beautiful sacred word of your own picking. We are 80% less likely to be addicted, 82% less likely to take our life 3/4 less likely to be recurrently struggling with major depression. So take the magnitude of the protective benefit and compare it against everything else we've looked at as clinical scientists. Right? Having a comfortable lifestyle, having parents who are nice to me. There is nothing that compares to the protective benefits of personal spiritual life by an order of two or threefold.

Halle (6:20)

Have they done antidepressants versus spirituality for the treatment or prevention of depression?

Dr. Lisa Miller (6:26)

Okay, that is a great question. That head to head study has never been done because how can you ever randomly assign.

Halle (6:34)

Right, right. I'm not sure if I'm in the spirituality group or not,

Dr. Lisa Miller (6:39)

but you're onto something really big and it's this really big. So I'm going to give you one of the most interesting things I've ever seen in science. It says when you look at people to naturally recover, perhaps with therapy, recover from depression, they often move from despair and struggle into starting to say, you know, okay, you know, my partner just cheated on me and it makes me feel hideous. My kid is angry at me and it makes me feel empty. I've given my life to this child. I have nowhere where I wanted to be with work. I feel like a loser. Right. Whatever struggle I might be feeling can be an invitation to say, okay, well, let me take this despair and not take it as some sort of period at the end of the sentence. But let me take this despair and say, okay, I'm going to go with it. What life are you revealing to me now? What higher power can I hand over to you that might be revealed back to me? We can open up a dialogue with the force of life. And in fact, in the most painful, disappointing, ego crushing moments, we're actually better and more prepared to open to what is life showing me now? The deeper force of life.

Halle (7:56)

That reminds me a lot of what Eckhart Tolle says is like, the despair is the way, the struggle is the way. Sorry, the awakening doesn't happen when you're fat, happy and comfy. It is in the recipe.

Dr. Lisa Miller (8:08)

Yes. And you know, Kelly, it's even in our brain. So when we looked at, through MRI studies at people who awaken through struggle, we found they developed greater cortical thickness, like processing power, across the regions of perception of the spiritual brain. What does that mean? That means that. Okay, let me back up even more. People who are profoundly spiritual today are two and a half times more likely to have struggled in the past 10 years. People who have come to a deep connection to their higher power, the force of life, who I call God. We are two and a half times more likely to have gotten there through the road of trials, through pain and loss and betrayal and ego death, or sometimes just a spontaneous feeling of horrificness. It is a knock at the door. It is not a statement of who I am or where I am. It is a really an invitation. And suffering to the point you're making then can be in the back of my head. Ooh, I bet something good is actually coming. If I'm not feeling comfortable in my life, that was okay yesterday, then maybe I've just outgrown it. Maybe I'm pushing at the seams, like those clothes that don't fit anymore. I'm becoming more. Yes, that's the discomfort of depression that you are becoming more so it doesn't feel not quite right. Not enough. Yesterday was fine. Today I feel the not enoughness because it is. There's more on the rise.

Halle (9:39)

I see a lot of women who, they know, they're in the thick of it right now. They don't like it. It's uncomfortable. They're wrestling with maybe letting go of past family trauma, maybe wrestling with current relationships that aren't going well, but they don't like it. But they're like, here I am in menopause. I don't like it. How can I best reflect back to him without sounding like Pollyanna of like, yay, here we go. Like, right. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is the shit. How would you counsel somebody who's like, I don't like the shit.

Dr. Lisa Miller (10:16)

Right, Great. So, Kelly, I would say stick with the reality of the feeling. Right. A lot of therapies try to talk us out of our feelings. For instance, there's some forms of therapy where you dispute your thoughts and come up with a happier view of yourself. But what if we take ourselves to be knowers? And then if I'm feeling depressed, there's something depressing in my life outwardly, or how I'm sitting in my current life within myself. So let me take the depression as real. Let me take myself as a knower and say, okay, if the depression's real, let's go with it. Let's stay with it. So I invite everybody to close our eyes, take a breath. And now three more breaths. And invite in the feeling. Invite in the feeling, whether it's a sharp pain or a depression or not enoughness. Allow it in and give it a Persona. Let it give itself a face, a form. What does it look like? Is it an ogre? Is it a. What is it? And I even invite you to give it a name. A face and a name. A form and a name. See what comes. Okay, that is the depression. That is the I hate it now. That is it. And I'm going to invite you to take it with us on a little journey. Okay? Where we're going to go is we're going to bring it to what every single one of us has, which is our High Council. This High Council is not pulled out of a hat. It's not random. It was taught to me by a beautiful teacher, the late Dr. Gary Weaver. And remarkably, this practice mirrors the neural correlates in our brain of transcendent awareness, of spiritual awareness. So here we go. We're gonna take it to counsel. I invite you again to close your eyes, clear out your inner space, and set before you in your inner life, a table. This is your table. And to your table, you can invite anyone who is living or deceased, who truly has your best interest in mind. And with them all sitting there, ask them if they love you. And now you may invite your Higher Self, the part of you that is so much more than anything that you have or don't have, anything you've done or not done, your true, eternal, Higher Self, and ask you if you love you. And now, finally, you may invite your Higher Power, whatever your notion or word may be, your Higher Power, and ask them if they love you. And now, with all your High Council sitting there right now, what do they need to tell you now? What do you need to know? And having convened your High Council, you may now present with the name you've given it. It and all their itness. High Council, what say you? What say you to it? What say you of it? And when you're ready, I invite you back. Were you surprised? You showed up, Kelly?

Halle (13:31)

What if Not a lot of people showed up.

Dr. Lisa Miller (13:32)

That's fine. What if one person shows up? That's awesome.

Halle (13:36)

Okay, good.

Dr. Lisa Miller (13:38)

One person is extraordinary. That means they deeply, authentically have your best interest in mind. That's spiritual relationship. So I'll share with you. I did that once because someone was really harassing me at work. I mean, doggedly, incessantly, this guy was literally foaming at the mouth outside my door. He'd walk back and forth. I mean, it was a nightmare. Okay? And so I brought him to counsel. But the first thing I did was part one. Give it a name and a Persona. See what comes. This is a practice of receptive. See what comes. You're listening to the universe, you're listening to the force. Right? And so he did not appear as he appears in his street clothes at work. He appeared as this almost comedic, very squat, kind of trollish figure.

Dr. Kelly Casperson (14:29)

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Dr. Lisa Miller (15:21)

immediately I was relieved because his grip on me was released when I allowed the truth to of the universe to give him a form as he really sits in my mind, brought him to council. And there I was with it. And counsel turned to me. Those who truly have my best interest in mind, my higher self and my higher power. And High Council said to me, we love you. And then they turned to little troll it and said, and we love you too. So all people are divine. We're on a journey trying to work this out. Now that doesn't mean I expose myself to it or him or anything, but that we are on a journey and he does not have some great rage and power and he can foam at the mouth all day long. It doesn't matter as long as I'm physically safe, right? But we're all on a journey. And it made me realize that who I call God loves the little troll. And it was a huge relief. It was a perspective that spinning didn't give me. Spinning does not yield breakthroughs.

Halle (16:24)

Yes. What part of the brain perseverates on shit it can't solve? And why have we evolved that part of our brain to dominate at this point.

Dr. Lisa Miller (16:34)

Well, it's a great point. So the default mode network goes round and round and round and round and round, cooking it and cooking it over. Mindfulness, which is a lovely attentional practice, disengages the default mode. Right? And people who spin, spin, spin, spin, spin. We all spin. But the more that we spin, the more that the default mode network gets internally. Highly connected to itself, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and less connected to the rest of the brain. So it's like a runaway train, like

Halle (17:03)

a perpetual motion machine.

Dr. Lisa Miller (17:05)

Yes, like a fan. Right, fan. So we all have a choice. The good news is we are the captain of the ship. We're the observing eye onto our own inner life, our own inner landscape. And we can make inner changes if we choose to and then practice them. Not blink. It's done, but choose to and practice it. So mindfulness disengages the default mode, but spiritual life. Spiritual life. So whether it's prayer or meditation or holding high counsel, as we just did. Yes, it disengages the default mode and then does three more things. If you think about your high council, those who truly have your best interests in mind, your higher self and your higher power, what did they say to you? Was there guidance? When you asked them if they love you, was it clear of, yes, we love you. And can you call counsel anytime? Are they always there? Counsel allows us to perceive the reality that we are loved and held, every one of us. We are guided and we are never alone. Counsel is a visualization that allows our brain to tap into the deeper sacred consciousness of life, the field of life. So we are loved, we're guided, and we're never alone is how we're built to perceive. And it does map onto what most traditions have envisioned as an all present, all loving and all knowing God, higher power, sacred presence. So when I share this for very religious communities, they'll say, oh, well, we're made in the image, and that's no matter what tradition. So bottom line is, we're all spiritual. But the harder life is, the more struggling, the more irritating, the more I might be behind the eight ball financially. The more I'm angry at my partner, the more I'm frustrated. The more spirituality benefits us. Most things are degraded by other risk factors, but spirituality and its benefits is augmented by other risk factors.

Halle (19:16)

Interesting. Yeah. So going back to, like, the women who are in it, what I tend to tell them, and then interpret this with your spiritual lens. What I tend to tell them is, like, women who've gone through these challenges and they end up on the other side. Nobody says, I've not heard anybody say, I wish I didn't go through that. Or maybe I didn't wish going through that on anybody. But what I learned from it was something I would not have learned otherwise. And I envision kind of like a tunnel or a portal. People are like, I like being on this side. I'm glad I'm not there anymore. But I'm grateful for the journey. And so that's what I tend to share with the women who are like, you're in the tunnel right now. Keep going. Don't get stuck in the tunnel. We want to move through this tunnel. Am I like, am I on this? Am I making sense?

Dr. Lisa Miller (20:07)

Right? That is exactly right. And some people call it dark night of the soul or ego death or cracking open, you know, but it is a tunnel. It is a dark tunnel, and we don't know where we are. And it's freezing cold and full of dark.

Halle (20:20)

We're pissed that we're there. We're worried we're going to be there forever.

Dr. Lisa Miller (20:25)

It feels like, could I be here forever? Is this my new life? Tunnel life, you know, tunnel life?

Halle (20:32)

Could we be there forever? I think the answer might be yes. If the default mode network keeps going, we pooh pooh the offering of spirituality. We shut down that voice that is calling us that sometimes we hear. But you can stay in the tunnel, I suppose.

Dr. Lisa Miller (20:49)

Well, one of the ways people stay in the tunnel is when they do not do the spiritual or the psychological work. They don't, you know, they punt on. On that and just make the symptoms go away with medication. So I am 100% for medication. I think it's tremendously helpful. But medication alone does not create the next step in life. Depression is da da da da. Depression decries a growth spurt, an awakening. Whether I'm 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 or 70, it is the outgrowing of the last seven years to the next seven years and making the pain go away. Ping with a pill is insufficient for the deep growth that we are being beckoned to realize there is an ascension before us. We are being bestowed something, and we don't know where we're going. But I have always seen every time that the lens widens, the aperture opens, and at the other end of the tunnel, we actually haven't. It feels like we're trudging downward or flat, but we've actually ascended. You just couldn't see it in the dark. But we've ascended and the view on the other side of the tunnel is not the old view. You haven't gone in a circle, you've gone up the mountain. Bigger view, brighter view, you see more, you see more. And in what way? More loving, more guiding of others. We're full of wisdom. This happens to women naturally. Even if bad things don't hit us on the head, this happens to women naturally. As we go through the phases of life. So the first time, obviously, is when we get our period. The first time. And we show in a large sample, we published this in Journal of Adolescent Health, that if you step back, young girls, high school girls, young women, as compared to young men, are 50% more likely to have depression in high school. But if young women are supported. So these are now our daughters in their own spiritual reality. You know. Yes. That synchronicity is reflecting something real. Yes. Your prayer life does hear a genuine source of all life, that voice, she is real. When women are supported and emerging into adulthood, they are far less likely to become depressed and the greater risk for women disappears. So what we're looking at is a mass disavowal.

Halle (23:15)

Same thing hold true for I think people view it as the female body is weak. It's so susceptible to depression, it's so susceptible to anxiety. We've got the Ferrari is broken, right? Like the view is the Ferrari or people don't know we're the Ferrari. And what I'm hearing and listening to you is we have a Ferrari. It's the support, the garage. We don't have the garage to like help hold space for the Ferrari. It's not the Ferrari's fault.

Dr. Lisa Miller (23:43)

I love your metaphor. And I would even say that we don't just have a Ferrari, we have an open air convertible Ferrari where we are open to experience and what looks like oversensitivity is actually going for the ride. It's feeling the sun and feeling the whipping wind. Women are more open to experience. More gets in, which means there is more to be engaged. Life cannot just be viewed as a random series of events that hit us in the face. Life is alive and conscious. And when more hits us, then we say, what life are you showing me now? We say, hey, what God? What higher power? Whether it's Mary Hashem, Jesus, universe, force of life, I'm handing this over to you and see what comes back. Life is alive. It's a conscious universe. We've interviewed hundreds of teenage girls and they get it. They know that one girl said, my mother died, and every time I'm really sad. Our Favorite song comes on the radio. That's a living synchronicity. Mom's with you. Or another girl said, I love all people, but my best friends. These friendships have God in them. There's a sense that girls know this and. And when we let them know themselves and their inner wisdom as real, authorize their instrument, their heart, their spiritual heart, then they are flourishing and confident and have a wider lens of knowing that we need in life as women. When we disavow it, they are far more likely to become depressed because we've kicked their legs out from under them.

Halle (25:21)

On this recording, I'm going to ask because I think it might help other people. My youngest daughter has asked me twice this week if God is real. Isn't that beautiful?

Dr. Lisa Miller (25:32)

Yes.

Halle (25:34)

Like, tell me, give me tips to like, lean into that.

Dr. Lisa Miller (25:37)

So you already are. It's beautiful. You are leaning into that. Wow, that's beautiful. What does your inner wisdom say? What does your own deep inner wisdom say? Any hunch, any intuition. So she's saying, hey, I'm on this quest. Hey. Everything I've ever been told, it's time now to test it against the resonance of my own inner heart, my inner compass. It's called spiritual individuation. The me and not me of spiritual reality. What is true. So she's sharing with you, boy. She trusts you, boy, she looks up to you, Kelly. She's sharing the most tender, precious, most important work of her entire adolescence, which is really testing the ground of what's true in her own direct, authorized heart, spiritually. Wow. I am so glad you raised that.

Halle (26:30)

It's pretty sweet, right? Ah, yeah. So, so then I'm like, what do you think? You know, like I'm just here to let you try to work through this newness, you know, and it's been fun so far, but I'm like, oh, we got some new questions this week. Okay, this is great.

Dr. Kelly Casperson (26:46)

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Dr. Lisa Miller (27:56)

in school we learn so much about arguing. Argue for God, argue against God. You can make 18 arguments pro and 18 arguments against. What does your inner heart say? Your heart is an instrument of knowing. Your heart is a true, valid form of knowing.

Halle (28:12)

I love that. So would you say that everybody goes through puberty, but only women have the. They get pregnant, their bodies have the ability to, whether they choose to or not. And then all women, if we live long enough, go through menopause, another profound hormone change. So my question is men don't have. They have puberty, but they don't have those other things. Is spirituality more challenging for men?

Dr. Lisa Miller (28:35)

Very, very interesting. So when we get pregnant, right? You know this because of your extraordinary expertise, there's a huge conversation around postpartum depression. But once again, the shift, the biological shift in childbirth makes us more open to experience. So I'll share with you. When I carried the first time, I delivered a child. I have three children. The center child was the first pregnancy I carried. My oldest child was adopted from heaven. So the second child I gave birth. And I remember starting to feel this like heavy kind of depression set. And so I went outside and I do what I do spiritually, which is pray. And I looked up and I saw soaring birds. And I felt a deep spiritual guidance. And I realized that childbirth, giving birth to my daughter had made me far more open to perceive the guidance and the presence of the sacred universe. And so I took the depression as a signal that more is gonna get in. But because that's the case, if I just leave it willy nilly, it will devolve to depression. My spiritual front foot is even more important because I'm in this very sacred opening, this wide open aperture of postpartum receptivity. So I went outside and I prayed. And this is January. And I looked at the birds and I felt the most glorious sense of sacred presence. And I looked at my daughter as this little porthole. You know, you can feel a baby so full of spirit like lights up that side of the house. So I Think we are more sensitive and open at these junctures. Childbirth is a major one. And the lesson that women then gain is so extraordinary. Loved, held, and never alone. I remember realizing, Kelly, suddenly, any child could have been my child. It prepares you to love everyone else's kid, too. I didn't even know if I wanted a kid at 15. And then when I had one, I'm like, well, I'll have my kid. You've been awakened, and you love everyone else's kid and you love the other moms. So I might not have picked someone as a best buddy in high school or college, but I love them as a fellow mom. Sharing the deeper journey.

Halle (30:58)

I love it. So what do men do?

Dr. Lisa Miller (31:00)

Different traditions tell it differently. But let me put it this way. When we look at the data, every child is born a naturally spiritual child. Spirituality is innate. Everyone's born. We know that through twin studies. But whereas other things are heavily innate. Like, once upon a time, Kelly, as a little baby, you were already smart because IQ is innate. Okay? Highly innate. Like, temperament is about half innate if you're extroverted or introverted. Right. The capacity through which we experience the transcendent relationship, the higher power. This gift is in all of us. It is innate, but it is one third innate, which means two thirds. Cultivated by our choices as adults to practice and meditate and serve right action. But also as a child, our parents willingness to engage with their own spiritual heart. Like you are with your daughter. Two thirds. So the conversation that your daughter brought to you says to me, like, spirituality is alive and well and welcoming your home. And she felt she could initiate that. That's extraordinary. That's the most important thing we do as parents, because it says, we talk about this here. The spirituality is real. There's a way in and a language, a roadmap. And our relationship goes to that depth. And you managed to tell her the whole nine yards through your way of being.

Halle (32:25)

Well, that's reassuring.

Dr. Lisa Miller (32:28)

Remember things you've done? Have you prayed out loud? Have you talked about your relationship to God?

Halle (32:33)

I think. I think, if anything, we talk about feelings a lot. Like, all feelings are allowed. Like, and we should feel them. So I think, like, if off the top of my head, I'm like, I think that's. And we're very like, let's ask questions. Let's, like, just very open to discovery. Like, there's no stupid questions. So just kind of like, this open curiosity is probably more of. Kind of how we jive here.

Dr. Lisa Miller (33:00)

Curiosity. We're on a quest. This is an adventure.

Halle (33:04)

Yeah. This is what we think today might be different, might be different later, and

Dr. Lisa Miller (33:08)

that, you know, what you feel. You're a knower.

Halle (33:10)

I love it. I was talking to somebody recently who was raised in a. A traditional religion and knows there's something more, is looking, but doesn't really know where to go. And I think what she was asking for is like, where is the spirituality? Where's the rule book? Where's the church for this? Where's the place to go? And this is off the top of my head. I'm like, you know, I think there isn't one because, like, nobody's really trying to make money off of this. Like, there aren't shops.

Dr. Lisa Miller (33:40)

This is you. You are spiritual. No one's not spiritual. No one's left out. This beautiful soul is already spiritual, already spiritual.

Halle (33:49)

So what would you. What sort of advice would you give that person who's like, okay, I trust you that there's more. Maybe I've heard a whisper. I think I got how this is helpful. Like, what's the ten step plan? Like, because, like, we want, like, the con. Like, do this. Like, what advice would you give these people?

Dr. Lisa Miller (34:08)

Number one is what you already did with your daughter, which is authorized yourself as a knower. The whisper of a hunch that, wait a minute, that was a synchronicity or that sense that you just suddenly feel this joy and love that's real. That's not something you cooked up in your head. That's not something that's sort of like a package in a factory that came through your brain. Your brain is not a factory. Your brain is an antenna. And you are receiving real things. That is the most important shift. And when you know yourself as receiving reality, spiritual reality, then your curiosity can carry you forward. So I don't feel like there's a stepwise plan that every single person uniformly needs to follow. I think when we listen to our inner wisdom, we will naturally start to listen to what is the universe revealing to me now? What is life showing me now? Look who came into my life. Why now? What is it we're discussing? How does that touch my heart? Or how do we touch each other's heart? So I think the universe is very much alive. And when we pay attention, we realize that we're already in a sacred drama. It's going.

Halle (35:23)

We're drowning it out with social media busyness. 20 to do. List things, working up until just before your head hits the pillow. I think we're beating spirituality out of us because we're not, you Need a little bit of quiet.

Dr. Lisa Miller (35:39)

Well, here's where the wisdom of women comes again. Because it doesn't matter how fast I was running on the treadmill with menopause, there is another bang at the door. Just like back in puberty, right? And this time, the question is not what is my purpose? And is God real? And what is the meaning? But it am I living my ultimate purpose? And in this time on earth, how have I treated those with whom I work or my family? Am I really fulfilling my mission as a soul on Earth? This comes at menopause, so it doesn't matter. I could have risen in the ranks. Oh, look. Look who joined us. I could have risen in the ranks. Or not risen in the ranks. I could have gotten or not gotten what I want. It just couldn't be smaller compared to this deeper call of am I living in keeping with my. My soul's code, my existential high bar of who I need to be? Women don't get around that. Menopause draws us into another bang at the door. Developmental depression that opens into an ascension again through the tunnel. Wet and cold. But on the other side, you are being guided somewhere. You're not alone in the tunnel. It might feel lonely. You might think you're alone, but you're not. There's a force helping you move through the tunnel. Listen. What are you showing me? Who are these messengers? These messengers? These trail angels. Ooh. Can we do another practice?

Halle (37:04)

Yes, please.

Dr. Lisa Miller (37:05)

Okay. I invite us to think of a time where we thought we wanted something so much. I mean, that job, that person, that place to live, that was ours. And so A plus B plus C, we did everything right, research, strategized. That red door was ours. So we reach for the red door, grab the handle, but it's stuck and it will not open. Shocked.

Halle (37:34)

Why?

Dr. Lisa Miller (37:34)

I did everything right. Why did he or she not say yes? Why did I not get the job? Why did I kick the door? Makes no sense. I was more qualified than that person. She likes her, him more than me. So we pivot. Pivot 40, 120 degrees. And over there is not a red door, but a bright, shining yellow door. We might have said, never heard of yellow doors. Didn't know they exist. On the other side of the yellow door is someone who makes you feel alive. It's a job where you realize talents you didn't even know you had. Is a community where you feel alive that you belong. The yellow door was not what you had wanted. It was better and better for you. How many times have we Hit our head on the red door, when in fact there is, if we just release and follow the path, a wide open yellow door. Now if you think then of the stuck red door and the hairpin turn taking you to the open yellow door. Were you all alone on that path or did someone show up and point you to the yellow door? Was there some type of synchronicity? It could have been a friend, reminded you of an old story. It could have been the barista told you the yellow door. Someone at a party for two minutes, a trail angel. A trail angel sent from central casting pointing you to the yellow door. So stuck red door, hairpin turned trail angel, wide open yellow door. Where in your road of life is the force that guides is the force in the wide open yellow door. And the stuck red door is the force who I call God in the trail angel. And your ability to be an open system in dialogue with the deeper force of life. So thinking of your stuck red door, your open yellow door in the trail angels, and perhaps you've been a trail angel. Have you really actually been on a spiritual path all along?

Halle (39:43)

Yeah. So to me, like, what I've done with my career and speaking and blah, blah, blah, blah, like I don't know what the next step is. I don't know. I don't really have like a two year plan. I don't know what my goal is. And I learned this probably like three years ago now. I would say of like and I say it and not everybody gets it, But I'm like, Dr. Lisa Miller will get at this. Of like, I am here, I am on a journey. I am on a plan. I don't know what it is. I just love the effing ride. At this point, what does it feel

Dr. Kelly Casperson (40:13)

like to be cared for in the quiet moments? No one sees this Mother's Day cozy earth creates comfort designed for the rhythm those women live every day. From the softness that greets her in the morning to the comfort that helps her unwind at night. Thoughtful by nature and gentle in every detail, It's a small way to give back to the person who gives so much. And who are we kidding? We are the moms in this scenario. Get something nice for yourself this Mother's Day. I got some new sheets in a beautiful blue. And I know they will last for years and years because for me, quality matters. Try it for yourself. Thoughtfully made for the woman who gives comfort all day with softness that feels like care in return and becomes something she'll reach for again and again. Let this mother's day be a reminder that she deserves care.

Halle (40:58)

That means you discover how Cozy Earth

Dr. Kelly Casperson (41:00)

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Halle (41:03)

Head to cozyearth.com and use my code

Dr. Kelly Casperson (41:05)

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Dr. Lisa Miller (41:20)

Fabulous. The Ferrari ride. Because you have a fabulous Ferrari being.

Halle (41:25)

Yeah, it's like, it's just a. It's just a ride. Like, I love it. I don't know what the goal is, but like, it's very. I love the thought of that because I'm like, don't. Just don't forget to have fun because you're going to go. You're going to go somewhere, you're going to do something. It's going to be great. Don't forget to have fun doing it. But like, it's a trusting knowing of like, this feels right. I'm just on a ride. I am here to help other women understand how to take care of their bodies and how to advocate for themselves. And I do that through creation and social media and blah, blah, blah. But like, it is. I am on the ride of this.

Dr. Lisa Miller (42:01)

Does it feel like an adventure and full of surprises? Good surprise. Like, you're going to cross the Moab. You're going to go up, you know, the Rockies. You're going to.

Halle (42:11)

It's so fun. You're like, I don't know, like, last year was like the Sydney Opera House and the fda like, okay, I love it.

Dr. Lisa Miller (42:18)

I love it. Yes. The Sydney Opera House and the fda. That's like the Rockies and the Moab.

Halle (42:24)

Yeah, it's just like, hang on for the ride. There's going to be some trips. What is exciting you as far as, like, what's. What are you guys researching? You guys. But I have to think there are many of you that are all like, tell me you're not alone on this. Researching this.

Dr. Lisa Miller (42:38)

No, I'm thrilled. The field is really growing. It's really growing. So when I started out in the late 90s, there were not a lot of people looking in psychiatry at the relationship between mental health and spirituality. Now we have thousands of peer review articles. Thousands. And we have a very strong field that includes not just the basic science of who we really are, which is glorious, but also what we can do about it. So in times of depression, spiritual engagement really is an accelerant of renewal. And we don't just get back to baseline. We don't just recover. We ascend. We're in a whole new level. We have ideas now that trauma inherently prepares us, if we say yes to it, to engage in the work of post traumatic spiritual growth. Now, with trauma, we often hear people talk about moral injury. I couldn't. The world as I knew it didn't hold. I can't believe he did that to me. I can't believe that this would, you know. But underneath, moral injury is often a sense of spiritual injury. Where there was a time in my life with spiritual injury where I felt closer or more able to pray to God, where I felt more worthy before God. People will say things like, you know, where in God's world do I fit after what I've done? Spiritual injury does not somehow just get addressed because we go to therapy as usual, and maybe it washes over. Spiritual injury deserves to be taken at the center of our renewal and recovery and be engaged directly post traumatic spiritual growth. And there are four steps to that. Three of them are common to trauma treatment. Returning to the experience, putting it into words and sharing it in a group, that's common to trauma treatment. But then when we shine the light of our own spiritual awareness onto the very moment that we hold with us, there can be a profound rearrangement of meaning. Like when your counsel High Council spoke to you. Suddenly I saw that I was not to blame. Then I knew we both could be forgiven. Then I was sure God had been with me all along. The profound rearrangement of meaning that does not come from spinning in the Default mode network, but comes from being an open system. The catch and the catcher's mat of a whole new understanding that is post traumatic spiritual growth. And it is a foundationally spiritual process that's not a psychological process alone. It takes as real our relationship to a genuine source of life that is loving, knowing, and guiding. Let me put it this way. Almost every woman I've ever met says, ah, that feels so right. No one has ever said, oh, you know, I really don't think I should authorize myself. They might say, I struggle with authorizing myself. I've gotten plenty of no messages, but no one has ever said, deep in my heart, do I think I shouldn't authorize myself?

Halle (45:45)

That's beautiful. People should read the Awakened Brain. I read it. It's amazing. I'm gonna go get your other one because that one's about more childhood. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Miller (45:53)

Thank you for reading the Awakened Brain. I love that you read it.

Dr. Kelly Casperson (45:56)

I was a neuroscience undergrad, so I'm

Halle (45:58)

always still like on the brain a lot. But where do people go? Like, are there from. For, like the research group people like, where we people want to stay on top of what, like, the newness of spirituality research is? Are there blogs? Are there podcasts? Like, where do people go to, like, stay on top of this if they're like, I don't want to feel alone. I kind of want to be validated and learn more. Are there resources for the lay population? Yes.

Dr. Lisa Miller (46:22)

Well, so certainly, Kelly, our very engaging conversation that you have led, I will post on Instagram, right? And my Instagram has archives of deep conversations on the science of spirituality. There are also very, very good books. So the Awakened Brain has in the back references so that you can go on Google Scholar and pull up the original articles. You can look at the MRI studies that show cortical thickness across the regions of the awakened brain when we sustain spiritual life and see how that's neuroprotective against recurrence of depression. And you can look up the twin studies that show we're innately spiritual beings, one third innate. So all of that is accessible on Google Scholar. And mental health has evolved and we now have, for instance, in the American Psychological Association, a very strong society for the Society for Spirituality and Psychology, which has thousands of psychologists. So you can talk to when you're looking for a psychologist. You can say, hey, do you engage spirituality? Or you can say, hey, would you be willing to work alongside my spiritual guide, who could be someone from a faith tradition or someone outside of faith tradition? There's really two models. There's the swirl cake, where spirituality is mixed in with psychotherapy, and there's the layer cake, where a traditional therapist might work together with a spiritual guide or chaplain. So both are good. It's up to you what you want. Both are good. The bottom line, though, is that you are a spiritual knower. And if you feel like there's a spiritual significance to your struggling, you're right. And it's not something that's critical of you. It's something that honors you, that your soul is trying to grow. And we are built in our brain to grow through suffering. I love it.

Halle (48:15)

I am so glad that you came on my podcast today. Thank you so much for your time.

Dr. Kelly Casperson (48:19)

Thank you so much for your exercises.

Halle (48:21)

Can we stay in touch?

Dr. Lisa Miller (48:22)

Love to.

Halle (48:23)

Okay, awesome. Thanks for being here today.

Dr. Lisa Miller (48:25)

Thanks again.

Dr. Kelly Casperson (48:27)

If you found this episode funny, helpful, insightful, please take a moment to follow rate and share the youe Are Not Broken podcast with someone who might need this conversation, too. That support is how this information reaches more people and thank you. For courses, books and my monthly membership and the Casperson clinic information, visit KellyCaspersonMD.com this podcast and all content from Dr. Kelly Casperson is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and this is not a substitute for individual medical coaching or psychological advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the guidance of your qualified healthcare professional with any questions you may have regarding your health. Never disregard or delay medical advice because of something you've heard on this or other podcasts. Thanks for being here. And remember, you are not broken.