Podcast Summary: You Are Not So Smart, Episode 306 — "I Never Thought of it That Way" with Mónica Guzmán

Original Air Date: February 3, 2025
Host: David McRaney
Guest: Mónica Guzmán (author, journalist, and Senior Fellow at Braver Angels)
Podcast Theme: Psychology, reasoning, biases, and bridging political and social divides

Overview

This episode features a rich and heartfelt conversation between David McRaney and Mónica Guzmán, author of I Never Thought of it That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times. Together, they explore the power of curiosity, storytelling, and journalism in bridging divides, reducing polarization, and understanding others. Guzmán shares practical insights from her work with Braver Angels, personal anecdotes, and her own journey as a journalist seeking to connect across difference—even within her own family. The discussion revolves around why and how we can have more meaningful conversations with those we disagree with, and how, by doing so, we can overcome fear, reduce animosity, and move towards a more genuinely connected and understanding society.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Limits of Distancing and Shaming

• Problem with Popular Tactics: Guzmán challenges the notion that distancing oneself or shaming those with opposing views is effective or righteous.

  • Quote:

    “The types of tactics and distancing that a lot of people thought was the way to be a good person is undermining our ability to persuade each other to be good people.”
    — Mónica Guzmán [01:36], [10:52]

• Relationships on the Chopping Block: Cutting off people with opposing views doesn’t change hearts or minds, nor does it improve collective problem-solving.

2. What is Braver Angels? (The Bridging Movement)

• Mission: Largest cross-partisan organization committed to depolarizing America.

  • Equal numbers of conservatives and liberals in each chapter working together.
  • Founded by a marriage therapist—drawing analogy between political divides and marriage discord.
  • Offers debates where the purpose is a collective search for truth, not victory.
  • Quote:

    “Finding a better way to actually see past the division and the animosity to who and what is really there…”
    — Mónica Guzmán [03:06]

• Related Organizations: America Talks, Listen First Project, Millennial Action Project, Intelligence Squared.

3. Personal Motivations and Background

• Guzmán’s Story:
  • Grew up in a politically mixed family in Seattle, feeling pressure to take sides post-2016.
  • Felt alone and questioned whether there was something wrong with her for wanting to maintain relationships across divides.
  • Personal bridge with her own parents (Trump supporters), refused to deny the closeness due to political differences.
  • Quote:

    “I felt obligated to not deny the close relationship I have with my parents merely because it was cool to do so ... and I just felt like that wasn’t complete. That’s not the whole story.”
    — Mónica Guzmán [07:54]

4. Why Bridge Divides? (Especially When It Hurts)

• The 'Devil' Problem:

  • People often resist the idea of talking to someone who represents harm or is deeply ‘other.’

  • Advice: Don’t “start with the devil”—build short bridges first, not the most daunting ones.

  • We tend to overestimate extremism and demonize unfamiliar groups out of fear.

  • Importance of engaging for:

    • Persuasion (changing minds is impossible at a distance)
    • Smart activism (knowing the actual people affected)
    • Simple learning and curiosity

  • Emotional labor is real, but so is the cost of living in a world of anxiety and uncorrected assumptions.

  • Quote:

    “Whoever is underrepresented in your life will be overrepresented in your imagination.”
    — Mónica Guzmán [13:03]

  • No Hard and Fast Red Lines: Each person must decide whether and when to engage, but blanket boycotts of all bridges are both unrealistic and harmful. There are many stories of long bridges being life-changing for individuals and society.

5. Curiosity as a Core Value

• From Openness to Unstoppable Learning:

  • Curiosity is not just a tool, but a “badass” value that powers learning, connection, and overcoming polarization.
  • Quote:

    “At its weakest, curiosity keeps our minds open so they don’t shrink. At its strongest, it whips us into a frenzy of unstoppable learning.”
    — Mónica Guzmán [18:36]

• Childhood and Journalism:

  • Guzmán’s own journey from shy child to endlessly curious journalist.

  • Journalism as a vocation that “gifts” curiosity to others, extracting and conveying overlooked human stories.

  • Quote:

    “Curiosity is a gift — the gift of your interest in somebody else. It’s unexpected… curiosity is a gift.”
    — Mónica Guzmán [36:32]

6. The Power of Storytelling and Listening

• Stories Over Logic:

  • People’s stories bypass argumentative postures.

  • When we absorb someone’s story, our moral reasoning becomes more relatable.

  • David McRaney’s Mailman Story:

    • A personal anecdote about interviewing a man refusing to sell his house for a highway extension, illustrating how deeper listening uncovers humanity and meaning behind surface disagreements.
    • Quote:

      “That conversation opened up a whole world to me that I was unaware of.”
      — David McRaney [32:09]

  • Guzmán's Journalism Epiphany:

    • Realizing the joy of helping someone discover their story through deep listening.
    • The contagious nature of someone else's passion.

7. Polarization: The Monster That Eats Other Problems

• Polarization Obscures Reality:

  • Political polarization amplifies other issues, leading us to dehumanize the "other" and block out nuance and complexity.
  • Quote:

    “Political polarization as the problem that eats other problems. The monster who convinces us that the monsters are us.”
    — David McRaney [40:30]

• Misinformation About Others:

  • We are “extraordinarily misinformed” about what people on the other side actually believe.
  • Journalism has shifted toward fear-mongering and away from curiosity.

8. Emotional Labor and the Cost of Not Bridging

• Assumption Spiral & Emotional Drain:
  • Avoiding conversations doesn’t protect us from emotional effort; it increases anxiety and assumptions.
  • Bridging, while sometimes hard, can actually reduce emotional labor by replacing assumption and fear with real understanding.
  • Quote:

    “What if by having the conversations... the volume gets turned down in your head on a lot of this stuff?”
    — Mónica Guzmán [44:32]

9. Wisdom, Humility, and “Beyond Your Ken”

• The Nautical Metaphor:
  • ‘Ken’: What you can see from your ship; beyond your ken = outside your direct experience.
  • Knowledge and understanding are bounded by proximity; we need to venture “beyond our ken” by engaging others.
  • Quote:

    “Wisdom comes from being aware of what you can’t see. A lot of times we’re not aware of it, so we don’t even know that maybe it’d be good to go and turn on a light over there.”
    — Mónica Guzmán [47:30]

Timestamps for Notable Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |:-------------:|-----------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:36–02:08 | Guzmán on why shaming/distancing doesn't change minds | | 02:56–03:56 | What is Braver Angels & the “marriage therapy” analogy | | 07:54–10:02 | Guzmán’s personal journey—maintaining relationships post-2016 | | 12:11–13:03 | Why bridge to those who harm? “Bridge with the devil?” | | 18:36–19:34 | “Curiosity is big. It is badass.” Becoming curious | | 32:09–36:08 | McRaney’s formative journalism story & Guzmán’s reflections | | 36:32–40:30 | Guzmán’s journalism epiphany — curiosity as a gift | | 44:32–45:47 | Emotional labor of bridging vs. living with assumptions | | 47:30–50:40 | “Beyond your ken” — nautical metaphor for knowledge gaps | | 50:40–51:43 | Reading memorable quote on manufacturing certainty |

Notable Quotes

• Mónica Guzmán:

  • “Curiosity is big. It is badass.” [18:36]
  • “Whoever is underrepresented in your life will be overrepresented in your imagination.” [13:03]
  • “Curiosity is a gift—the gift of your interest in somebody else.” [36:32]
  • “Wisdom comes from being aware of what you can’t see.” [47:30]

• David McRaney:

  • “That conversation opened up a whole world to me that I was unaware of.” [32:09]
  • “Political polarization as the problem that eats other problems. The monster who convinces us that the monsters are us.” [40:30]

Concluding Insights

• Bridging divides takes courage and curiosity, but it's possible and deeply rewarding.
• Guzmán’s model is about building short bridges, embracing curiosity as a value, and being humble about the limits of our own experience.
• While emotional labor is real, much of it comes from living in assumption and fear—bridging may actually lessen the daily burden.
• Ultimately, deep listening and storytelling can humanize even the sharpest divides, and everyone can (and should) practice these skills.

Further Resources:

• I Never Thought of it That Way by Mónica Guzmán
• Braver Angels (https://braverangels.org)
• David McRaney’s How Minds Change

Listen to the episode for anecdotes, journalism stories, and practical tips for more curious, compassionate conversations across deep divides.