330 - A More Beautiful Question - Warren Berger (rebroadcast)

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: You Are Not So Smart
Episode: 330 – A More Beautiful Question – Warren Berger (rebroadcast)
Date: January 5, 2026
Host: David McRaney
Guest: Warren Berger

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Overview

This episode explores the power and significance of asking good questions, featuring "questionologist" Warren Berger, author of A More Beautiful Question. The discussion centers around the types and value of questions, how questioning shapes creativity, critical thinking, and innovation, why children are such prolific questioners, and how individuals and institutions can cultivate better habits of inquiry to foster growth and adapt to rapid change. The episode also addresses the urgent importance of critical thinking in the modern age of AI, misinformation, and information overload.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Nature and Power of Asking Questions

• Why Questions Matter

  • Asking questions is fundamental to critical thinking and making sense of the world ([01:12–02:33]).
  • People often persist in ignorance not because they can't find answers, but because they don't ask—or check if they actually know—the answer ([03:00]).
  • Example: The classic "Why is the sky blue?" illustrates layers of knowledge and the importance of curiosity ([01:12–10:52]).

• Types and Taxonomy of Questions

  • There isn't just "why?" There are "why not," "how come," constraint, counterfeit, rhetorical, existential, pedagogic, and more ([11:03]).
  • Self-inquiry can be powerful: "Am I right about everything? If not, what am I wrong about? Why don't I know? How could I change that?" ([11:03]).

Warren Berger’s Approach to Questioning

• Three Types of Questions: Why, What if, and How

  • Why: Understanding the problem ([12:54], [42:44]).
  • What if: Imagining alternatives; unlocking creativity ([12:54], [49:28]).
  • How: Practicalities; moving toward action ([13:06], [52:41]).

• Developing the Concept of "Beautiful Questions"

  • A "beautiful question" is ambitious, actionable, and can lead to real change ([31:25]).
  • Example: Netflix's founder asking, "Why isn't there a better way to rent movies?" ([31:25–33:04]).

• The Power of Naive and Child-like Questions

  • Children are prolific questioners, often asking "why" repeatedly—a behavior adults can learn from ([05:03], [53:22]).
  • The "Vuja Day" question: See the familiar with fresh eyes, as inspired by George Carlin ([33:29]).

Practical Questioning Tools & Techniques

• Question Sandwich ([14:54])

  • "I'm curious..." + ask question + provide rationale ("The reason I ask is…") helps soften and clarify inquiry, especially in challenging workplace settings.

• WAIT & AWE Questions

  • WAIT (“Why Am I Talking?”): Encourages self-reflection before speaking, listening more than talking ([17:02]).
  • AWE (“And What Else?”): Pushes conversations deeper by prompting exploration beyond first responses ([18:16]).

• Mirroring Technique

  • Repeating the last few words someone said prompts them to elaborate further ([19:59]).

Barriers to Questioning

• Questioning Declines in School

  • Children ask fewer questions after starting school, possibly due to an environment focused on answers over inquiry ([53:45]).
  • "Children enter school as question marks and leave as periods" ([55:10]).

• Cultural & Institutional Resistance

  • Many organizations discourage fundamental questioning, fearing it undermines established processes ([37:37]).
  • Berger urges stepping back to ask, "Why are we doing this at all?" to avoid "garbage in, garbage out" thinking ([36:59]).

Questioning in Innovation and Problem-Solving

• Constraint Questions

  • Applying or lifting constraints ("What if you only had 24 hours to live?", "What if budget was not an issue?") can spur creative solutions ([36:03]).

• Stories Exemplifying Powerful Questions

  • The Polaroid camera was invented because a child asked, "Why do we have to wait for the picture?" ([47:52]).

• Connective Inquiry & "What If" Questions

  • Innovation often comes from combining what already exists in new ways ([49:53]).
  • Example: The "Clocky" alarm clock on wheels, designed to solve the problem of oversleeping by moving away from the user ([51:53]).

Critical Thinking in the Age of AI & Misinformation

• The “Make Sense Stopping Rule”

  • When people receive confirmation of their opinions, they stop asking questions and searching for information ([59:15]).

• Importance of Skeptical Questions

  • AI and information overload increase the need for skepticism and critical thinking ([60:30]).
  • Referencing Carl Sagan’s call for society to cultivate "baloney detectors"—the ability to ask skeptical questions of authorities and information sources ([61:30]–[64:06]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Power of Why

• Warren Berger:
  "To me, [why] is the great understanding question. It's the tool you use. It's like a shovel. You can use it to dig." ([10:56], [42:44])

On The Three Types of Powerful Questions

• Warren Berger:
  "They are why questions, what if questions and how questions." ([12:54], [42:44])

On Beautiful Questions

• Warren Berger:
  "When you’re asking a really ambitious question, but it’s also actionable... and it has the possibility to bring about change." ([31:25])

On Childlike Curiosity

• Warren Berger:
  "Kids are crazy when they keep asking why, but they're not. They're onto something." ([05:00], [42:44])

On Questioning Decline in School

• Warren Berger:
  "Children enter school as question marks and they leave as periods." ([55:10])

On Institutional Reluctance

• Warren Berger:
  "A lot of times, the beautiful question can be as simple as asking, 'Why are we doing this?' ...But companies are loathe to do that—they don't know how to do that." ([37:37])

On Critical Thinking and AI

• Warren Berger:
  "AI is a wonderful tool, but AI is only as good as your critical thinking. When that information comes back to you, you better be able to say, 'This sounds right, but this doesn’t.'" ([60:30])

Carl Sagan on Skepticism and Democracy

• Carl Sagan (archival/quoted):
  "Science is more than a body of knowledge. It's a way of thinking, a way of skeptically interrogating the universe with a fine understanding of human fallibility. If we are not able to ask skeptical questions... then we're up for grabs for the next charlatan, political or religious, who comes ambling along." ([62:26])

Memorable Anecdote

• Cockatoo Clementine Story:
  Host describes how a pet store bird, Clementine, inadvertently embodied the power of repetitive inquiry by asking: "What are you doing?"—and customers would divulge ever-deeper stories automatically ([21:03–22:24]).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & The Sky is Blue Example: [01:12–11:03]
• Taxonomy of Questions: [11:03–12:54]
• Warren Berger on Types of Questions: [12:54–13:26]
• Question Sandwich Technique: [14:54–16:13]
• WAIT and AWE Questions: [17:02–18:16]
• Mirroring Technique & Clementine Bird Story: [19:59–22:24]
• About Warren Berger’s Background: [28:25–29:56]
• Definition of Beautiful Questions & Netflix Example: [31:25–33:04]
• Vuja Day Questioning: [33:29–35:46]
• Constraint Questions: [36:03–36:59]
• Unimaginative vs. Beautiful Questions in Business: [37:37–40:12]
• Why, What if, How Model: [42:44–46:05]
• Polaroid Instant Camera Story: [47:52]
• Connective Inquiry & Innovation: [49:53–51:53]
• Children’s Questions & Decline in School: [53:22–55:10]
• Critical Thinking, AI, and Baloney Detection: [60:30–64:06]

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Conclusion

This episode is a master class in the value and practice of asking better questions, both personally and organizationally. Warren Berger and David McRaney examine why consistent, intentional inquiry is the wellspring of creativity, innovation, and robust critical thinking. They discuss practical questioning tools, the historical and psychological roots of curiosity (and what stifles it), and sound the alarm for skeptical, open-ended thinking in an era of AI and information overload. The discussion is filled with actionable wisdom, memorable stories, and practical techniques for anyone seeking to become a more beautiful questioner.

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For more on Warren Berger and his work:

• warrenberger.com
• A More Beautiful Question, 10th Anniversary Edition

Transcript

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[David McRaney]

You can go to kittedkitted shop and.

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Use the code Smart50Smart50 at checkout and you will get half off a set of thinking superpowers in a box.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

If you want to know more about what I'm talking about, check it out.

[David McRaney]

Middle of the show.

[Warren Berger]

Feel happy. They went quiet. They went quiet.

[David McRaney]

Welcome to the you Are not So Smart podcast, episode 3:30. My name is David McRaney. This is the youe Are not so Smart podcast. On this program we often explore intellectual humility, media literacy and critical thinking. And asking questions is a critical aspect of critical thinking. And this is an episode about asking questions. So I'd like to ask you a question. Why is the sky blue? Do you know the answer to that question? Do you know why the sky is blue? You may have learned the answer in school, and if so, I'm wondering right now how much of what you learned can you right now recite off of the top of your head? In other words, and you don't have to share this with anyone.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

I'm not going to tell anybody.

[David McRaney]

But I'm wondering if, honestly, when asked, why is the sky blue? Is your internal answer kind of, I don't know. It's totally okay. It's totally okay if that is your answer. But I'm wondering if it is, how long have you persisted in this very specific, specific slice of ignorance? When is the last time you looked up the answer to why is the sky blue? Either to learn it for the first time or to refresh your memory. We are more than capable than at any other time in history of answering questions like these. There was a time when if you were hanging out with your friends and someone like they ordered like a bee's knees at the bar and someone said, I wonder why they call it the bee's knees? Everyone just would go, and that's it. Nobody's going to look it up on YouTube or use a search engine. Certainly not an AI LLM. We just didn't have that stuff. And now we do. The device in your pocket can look up the answers to things in seconds. Yet we often leave a lot of the potentially knowable world around us unknown. Why does ice float? Why do leaves change colors in the fall? How does our heart keep beating all on its own? In many cases, we are doing something relatively new when we persist in a state of not knowing such things willingly by choice. Of course, there's another possibility. You may not know these things because you think you know these things, but you don't actually know these things because you haven't checked to see if you are wrong. And you are. I know when I was a boy, several adults told me it was the blue of the ocean reflecting off of the sky. That was why the sky was blue. Which not only isn't true, it just leads to more why questions. Why is the ocean blue? Why is the sky blue? Over the deserts, in the forests where there's no oceans, why aren't the clouds blue? Why?

[Kitted Shop Promoter]

Why?

[David McRaney]

And why?

[Warren Berger]

We think kids are crazy when they keep asking why, but they're not. They're onto something. You know, they kind of instinctively know that sometimes you have to ask why repeatedly to get to the real truth of an issue.

[David McRaney]

That's Warren Berger, an expert on of all things, asking questions. And we will bring him back in.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

In just a second.

[David McRaney]

But first, it feels like I should tell you why the sky is blue before we move on to the rest of the show. If you want to skip this part, it lasts about five minutes. So if you want to skip ahead and I'll see you on the other. Why is the sky blue? It's commonly presented as the example of a child's natural curiosity, of natural human curiosity. It's the first big question that a child asks. And I say big by. It's like, how in the world does the world actually work? It's one of those kinds of questions, and it's usually among the first. And it's a great example of our yearning to make sense of the natural world. It's a gateway question to the sort of pondering that led to philosophy and science and our current understanding of everything from physics to perception to consciousness itself. And we as a species asked that question for a very long time, thousands of years, before finally figuring it out. And we only just figured it out. But we did figure it out recently, around 1899. That was when British physicist John William Strutt, great name, known as Lord Rayleigh. Not that great of a name. It was a family dynasty name thing. That was when he. Rayleigh. Building on the work of John Tyndall and Isaac Newton before him mathematically explained with formulae that the blue color of the sky is due to molecules in the air scattering sunlight all over the place. What does that even mean? Well, all the colors of light, the full spectrum, it's all hitting the atmosphere. Red, orange, yellow, green, indigo, violet, blue, all of them. And each color of light has a wavelength, and some wavelengths are longer than others, like red, which just means the peaks of the red light waves are farther apart than the peaks of the blue waves. Imagine long lazy curves versus tight, busy squiggles. That's red versus blue. The atmosphere, which is mostly nitrogen with oxygen mixed in, is full of particles. Dust, pollen, ash, bacteria, stuff like that. And the long wavelength colors with their slow, lazy vibrations, just don't interact with that stuff in the atmosphere nearly as much as the faster, busier, more frenetic wavelength colors do. Therefore, the long wavelength light waves, they snake their way down to the surface of the planet without getting nearly as scattered. But blue, with its shorter, squiggly wavelengths, interacts with a lot more stuff, creating.

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A sort of optical static as it.

[David McRaney]

Scatters and bounces all over the place. That static fills the upper atmosphere. It's just everywhere. Which means that during the day, from every angle, no matter where you look, there will be some blue light escaping that static and then making its way down to your eyes. And that makes the sky seem blue. I say seem because all of this is, at some level, an illusion. It's all the result of nuclear fusion within a nearby star, generating electromagnetic waves that travel across space to the planet you are standing on, scattering in its atmosphere before shooting into your eyeballs, striking your retina, and then getting chemically converted into electrical signals that your brain interprets as colors. But, yeah, back to the sky. When the sun is low on the horizon at sunrise and sunset, sunlight has to pass through a lot more atmosphere to get to your eyeballs, kind of like headlights and fog. So through all that muck, a whole lot more blue light is scattered and dispersed before it can get to you. And in that situation, a whole lot less of those blue waves make it through the static, leaving behind the long red wavelengths that slowly snake their way down without interrupting, interacting with as much of that junk. And that changes the resulting illusion generated by your brain into a less blue, more red version of the sky. Why is the sky blue? Well, that's a why question. But the truth is, I didn't really just tell you why the sky is blue. To truly explain why, I would need to recite an Entire bookshelf, science textbooks. That's because at any point in this explanation, we could have gone on hundreds of Y tangents. Why does light have wavelengths? Why does anything have wavelengths? Why are the colors of the spectrum red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet? Why are they called those things? Why is the atmosphere nitrogen and oxygen? Why is there an atmosphere? Why does nuclear fusion generate light? Why do stars generate nuclear fusion? Why are there stars? Wait, wait, why? Why is the ocean blue? Why are there electromagnetic waves? Why is there electricity? Why is there magnetism? Why are there waves?

[Kitted Shop Promoter]

Why?

[David McRaney]

Why?

[Philo TV Advertiser]

Why?

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Why?

[Kitted Shop Promoter]

Why, why, why, why?

[Warren Berger]

Is to me, it's the great understanding question. It's the tool you use. It's like a shovel. You can use it to dig.

[David McRaney]

Right Again, that's Warren Berger, question expert. We're about to get to him. But first, let me sum up this introduction to this episode by stating something that is strangely not completely obvious, which is that there are other kinds of questions, not just why questions. There are why not questions, how come questions, constraint questions, counterfeit questions. There's a whole taxonomy, rhetorical questions, existential questions, pedagogic questions. And there are formats of questions, my favorite being self inquiry in the form of a sort of self directed Socratic method. For instance, the jugular question, so named by astronomer Arno Penzias, which goes like, why do I believe what I believe? And there's a variation of this, a what question from author Daniel Pink. What did I once believe? That is no longer true. And my favorite line of questioning, like this, self inquiry. It comes from author Will Storr. Ask yourself, am I right about everything? If the answer is no, then follow up with then what am I wrong about? And if the answer to that question is I don't know, ask yourself, why don't I know? And how could I change that? And of course, there are many, many forms of inquiry, questions we direct at others. So the classification and categorization of questions as a concept, as a type of language, as a form of communication is quite complex. So much so that one could devote an entire career to writing books about this and consulting businesses and institutions on how to ask better questions.

[Warren Berger]

Well, you know, I sort of break it down into three types of questions that I'm really fond of. They are why questions, what if questions and how questions.

[David McRaney]

Once again, that is the voice of Warren Berger, a man who did that very thing, made a career out of classifying, categorizing, and making sense of the sorts of questions we ask and when we are likely to ask them. And how that can lead to all manner of outcomes, some positive, some negative.

[Warren Berger]

My name is Warren Berger. I am an author and I call myself a questionologist, meaning simply that I study the art and science of questioning, asking questions, why questions are important, why we should be asking more of them. So that's my focus now. I've written three books on that subject.

[David McRaney]

Yes, three books. Yes, a question ologist. And yes, that's a term he invented. But yes, that really is what he does for a living.

[Warren Berger]

I even like one time called myself a questionologist in the New York Times. And as I like to say, no one questioned it.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

I have used one of your tricks a billion times. I just recently did a little consulting.

[David McRaney]

Thing for wildlife, fisheries and parks. It's a long story.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

They're dealing with conspiracy theories and how to interact with people.

[David McRaney]

One of the things I passed along.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

From you to them was you can.

[David McRaney]

Just open with I'm curious and then ask your question.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

It's a very powerful tool. Just a one word, just drop it in.

[David McRaney]

I'm curious.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

When you look at like whatever you say next, it is really, really softens.

[David McRaney]

The blow of the question in a way that the other person wants to share.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

And I think that's really clever.

[Warren Berger]

Right. And then if you really want to build on that, what you do is what I call the question sandwich.

[Kitted Shop Promoter]

Yes.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Tell us about this. I love it.

[Warren Berger]

Yeah, the question sandwich is. Okay, so people often, when I go into companies and I talk to people working there, they often say to me, you know, I would like to question the way we're doing things here. I would like to question some of the policies, but I'm afraid of how that's going to be received. What you do is you add a rationale onto the end of the question. The question is now in the middle of a sandwich. The beginning of the sandwich is telling them you're curious. The end of the question is giving them your rationale. And the question is in the middle. So, for example, let's say if someone was going to challenge, was going to question a policy, they would say, you know, I'm curious about one of our policies. I'm wondering about something. Then they would say, why do we do this particular policy? And then they would end with, and the reason I ask is because, you know, sometimes this policy causes me to slow down in my work, or it gets in the way of doing this or that. So now you've given them the rationale at the end, now that there's a solid reason why you asked this question.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

I can attest to this works edit. I recommend don't do this unless you.

[David McRaney]

Are actually curious and you do have a rationale.

[Warren Berger]

Yeah, well, your rationale better be good. And in fact, it should be good. Anyway, if you're challenging a policy or asking something like that at work, you should have a good reason for it.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

I'm curious, Warren, there's a question in your book called the Wait Question, and I'd love to hear you tell my audience about this. And the reason I want you to tell them about it is because I often am in situations where I'm helping people understand how to have better conversations. And I'm astonished to learn that one.

[David McRaney]

Of the things that must be communicated.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

To people who want to communicate better is, you know, you have to listen and not just wait to talk. And it turns out there's a question for this. I'd love to hear you tell me more about it.

[Warren Berger]

Yeah, so, yeah, it came from a psychologist who came up with that wait, which stands for why am I talking? And so whenever you're about to interject, you should ask yourself the question, why am I talking right now? Especially if someone is in the middle of telling you something, we all want to rush in with either advice, oh, you're telling me something. Oh, I can tell you what you should do here. Or we want to top their story with our own story. Oh, you're telling a story about this. Oh, I've got a better story than that. He was just saying, always pause and ask yourself, is this the right time right now for me to be jumping in? And usually it's not. Usually you want to wait a little bit. And so that's the wait question.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

As you're talking, I'm getting excited and I wanted to show you all the little things that connect to what you're talking about.

[David McRaney]

And in my mind, I'm commiserating in some way.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

I'm like, I've had that feeling. I've shared that I want to talk. But then your sharing thing gets longer.

[David McRaney]

Than the thing that they just.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

And all of a sudden, you know.

[Warren Berger]

What goes well with the wait question is the awe question. The awe. And that's a really great question for people to use. It's simply the AWE stands for and what else? So when you're talking to people about something, let's say, an issue that they're dealing with, and they tell you, you know, I'm having a problem at work because of, you know, people are not listening to me. And then you would ask, and what else? And Then they'll say, well, the other issue that's bothering me is that such and such and such. And then you might even ask again, and what else? And what happens is you are kind of pushing people to dig deeper about what's really on their mind, and you are allowing them to go beyond the first thing. And oftentimes the first thing they tell you is not the best thing. It's not the deepest thing. They have to kind of dig a little bit. So the end, what else? Question is designed to help them dig deeper in what it is they really want to tell you.

[David McRaney]

Yes.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

It's like writing an article where you don't really start actually writing it to your. About a couple paragraphs in, and then you start over and you're like, okay, I'm starting to get an idea of actually how I feel about it. Holding space for another person to articulate.

[David McRaney]

They'Ll start to discover, oh, wait, I.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Actually have a lot more to say.

[David McRaney]

About this than I thought.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

And my initial push in there was just sort of getting the conversation started.

[David McRaney]

So I don't feel awkward and say.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Nothing when you ask me. It's a great tool. It reminds me of the.

[David McRaney]

The Voss stuff, that very simple mirroring.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Exercise where you just repeat the last three words. Ish of a person's thing. Always works. Like someone's. Like, I went to the doctor the other day and got some news. And you just say back to them, got some news. And then they say, yeah, they told me, you know, like, I might need to look at my cholesterol. My cholesterol is getting a little high.

[David McRaney]

A little high.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Even when you tell someone ahead of time that's what you're about to do, it will still work.

[Warren Berger]

It works. Although you do have to. All of these things have to be used with common sense, right? Like you can't ask and what else? Six times in a row. You will drive people crazy, right? And you can't echo too many times in a row because again, all of these things, if you overdo them, they will suddenly seem like a gimmick. So it's a fine line. You kind of have to know, oh, I can do it a couple of times, and then I better not do it anymore.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

I used to own two pet stores back in the day. From age 18 to 23, I owned two pet stores. And we had a. A rescue bird named Clementine who just.

[David McRaney]

Liked to say, what are you doing?

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

That's all she would say. And customers would walk in. And I learned so much from this because customers would Walk in and she'd.

[David McRaney]

Go, what are you doing?

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

And they would go, oh, hey there.

[David McRaney]

I'm just coming to shop for some.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Dog food for my dog.

[David McRaney]

What are you doing?

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Well, I'm here in town shopping for.

[Kitted Shop Promoter]

Dog food and what are you doing?

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Well, I came, I came to town.

[David McRaney]

Comes, it's my daughter's wedding and I.

[Kitted Shop Promoter]

Want to see her, you know, like, what are you doing?

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Well, I, I, I want to.

[Kitted Shop Promoter]

And by the, after a couple rounds.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Of this, they're basically, they're like in the fetal position in the corner going, I wasn't a good dad and I was trying my best. Like.

[David McRaney]

And this bird is only going, what a dirt.

[Warren Berger]

I love that. That's fantastic.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

It would scramble brains. And I saw it every day and it never got old.

[Warren Berger]

Oh, that's so good. That's so good. I mean, I, I wish I had footage of that bird doing that because that would be a great, I would love to use that in a presentation or something. I think that's absolutely hilarious.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Steal that and take it over. Her name was Clementine. She was a cockatoo who only asked, what are you doing?

[David McRaney]

Over and over again.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

And every time a person felt like they were having a deep conversation with Clementine.

[David McRaney]

We'll be right back with more questionology after this break.

[Kitted Shop Promoter]

Foreign.

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Deserves to be connected. That's why T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces. Switch to T Mobile and save up to 20% versus Verizon by getting built in benefits they leave out. Check the math@t mobile.com switch and now T Mobile is in US cellular stores.

[T-Mobile Legal Disclaimer]

Savings versus Comparable Verizon plans plus the cost of optional benefits, plan features and taxes and fees vary. Savings with three plus lines include third line free via monthly bill credits. Credits stop if you cancel any lines. Qualifying credit required.

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[David McRaney]

Okay, that thing I said I would.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Talk about in the middle of the show. It's not quite the middle of the.

[Kitted Shop Promoter]

Show, but here's the thing so curiosity is this unusually common trait of people who listen to this podcast. You may have noticed that about yourself. And if you're the kind of who wants to understand how minds work and sometimes don't work, which is clearly who you are because you listen to the show, you are probably super interested in critical thinking. If you are the kind of person who is right now listening to this podcast, then you might also be curious to find out about the Higher Order Thinking Skills course that I am co presenting at the Executive Thinking Academy. The Executive Thinking Academy. It's about executive thinking, like the executive centers of your brain, but also executive thinking too, if that's what you want.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

To do with it.

[Kitted Shop Promoter]

It's a four week course to level up your strategic, creative, critical and executive thinking skills. But it's a bit different because first it's not a passive exercise in watching a video and then filling out some multiple choice questions. Instead, you will be actively participating in hands on activities using templates and frameworks that you can use well beyond the course itself. It's a genuinely interactive experience that will help you to think in new ways. You also get the full set of kitted thinking tools with more than 200 beautifully designed physical cards in these fancy magnetic boxes that you can use to plan and facilitate workshops, elevate brainstorming sessions, supercharge strategy planning, and much more. These cards, they they have digital versions.

[David McRaney]

They have QR codes on them, they.

[Kitted Shop Promoter]

Have a whole like thing that you can use on a website to make them cool. The course is incredible and it shows you a bunch of ways to use.

[David McRaney]

Those cards at your workplace or anywhere else.

[Kitted Shop Promoter]

And you'll have the option to learn collaboratively with a small group of like minded peers so that you're holding each other accountable and encouraging each other to push your thinking boundaries. Plus, you don't just get Access to this one course, you get 12 months of membership to the Executive Thinking Academy itself. And that includes webinars in Q and A sessions, with global thought leaders, with authors, with academics. It's a whole lot of stuff and you get 50% off if you use the code smart50 at checkout when you visit kitted shop half off smart50 kitted shop. If you are curious to learn more and to join me for next month's Higher Order Thinking Skills course, head over there right now, click on the link in the show notes and lock in your place.

[David McRaney]

And now we return to our program. I'm David McRaney. This is the youe Are not so Smart podcast. This is an episode about questions. Our guest is Warren Berger, author of A lot of Stuff, including A More Beautiful Question, a book about how to ask better questions. And he is a self titled question ologist. And yes, he may have created this title of Questionology, but Warrenberger is no quack or crackpot. He regularly consults some of the world's largest businesses and most powerful institutions on how to revamp their internal inquiry processes and he regularly speaks at universities and conferences about this topic. Before that he was a freelance journalist and it was during his days as a journalist that he began to develop this obsession with questions.

[Warren Berger]

I am a longtime journalist. I used to write for the New York Times and Wired magazine and basically made my living as a freelance journalist for 30 years. And one of the things I kind of wondered that whole time was I used questioning every day as a tool of the trade as a journalist. And it occurred to me somewhere along the line that I was never really trained in questioning when I went to journalism school, which I thought was kind of odd. You know, I don't remember a single course at least when I was going to J school. Maybe it's changed now, but I don't remember a single course that broke down kind of the art and science of questioning and said, you know, here's the difference between an open ended question and a closed question. And here's how you have to use a certain tone with questions. It was never anything like that. And I thought that was really strange that I never. That that was never really addressed in journalism school. So anyway, that was kind of in the back of my head. And then as I was writing, I tended to do a lot of writing about entrepreneurs or innovators or people who had, you know, were doing breakthroughs of some kind. And I noticed this common link where a lot of them were great questioners and they would. It's way more powerful. Yeah. And just the idea. Just on the most basic level they would find a question that nobody else was asking, like why hasn't someone come up with a better way to blah, blah, blah.

[Kitted Shop Promoter]

Right.

[Warren Berger]

And what if you did this? What if you combine this with that? And they would kind of live with these questions for a while and work on them, and sometimes they'd bring other people into the question, and eventually it seemed to lead to something. It led to a breakthrough of some kind or an innovation. So I thought that was really interesting, and it changed my take on questioning a little bit. I had always thought of questioning as just a communication tool, just something you do to get info out of somebody else. But now I was starting to think about what is the power of questions when you ask them to yourself and you go to work on them. And that was really interesting to me.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

So.

[David McRaney]

Warrenberger, journalist, writer for the New York Times, Wired, the Harvard Business Review, author of several books on innovation, design and branding, wrote a book in 2014 about questions, and just this year came out with a new version of that book that's been completely revamped and rewritten in many ways to keep it up to date with the modern era. And it's all about how to ask questions, questions in ways that lead to breakthroughs. That book would go on in 2014 to become a best seller.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

And the new version is what we're.

[David McRaney]

Going to talk about right now. And the title of that book is A More Beautiful Question.

[Warren Berger]

It's a line from the poet E.E. cummings, who said, always the beautiful answer. Who asks a more beautiful question. I was writing at the time, I started this book a lot about innovation and creativity, and I decided to focus my definition of a beautiful question on the kinds of questions that sort of open up creativity or lead to something bigger. So I defined it as, you know, when you're asking a really ambitious question, but it's also actionable. You can take action on it, and it has the possibility to bring about change. So these kinds of questions can come from. Sometimes they just come out of the air. You know, so many of the innovation stories that I wrote about, somebody would ask, like, why hasn't someone come up with a different way that we can rent movies? And why do we have to have this blockbuster system where you get fined if the movie's late? And this is the guy who started Netflix. You know, he's asking these questions, and it leads him to eventually say, you know, what if we created a model of videos that, you know, where they came in the mail and you joined it like a club? And then eventually he asked, well, what if we use the Internet to just stream the movies? And, you know, so he kept asking those kinds of questions. And to me, that's an example of a beautiful question. It may not be that profound, but it's looking at something in a different Way, it's asking a question that kind of changes the way you think about something, and it has the potential, if you can answer it, to bring about some kind of a real change.

[David McRaney]

When we first met, I was eager to hear all about all the different kinds of questions that Warren writes about in his book. The big categories he referred to at the beginning. What, what if? And how, which we'll get into in a little while. But there was one category in particular that I wanted to ask about first, and that is the one created by the great comedian George Carlin. What's the Vuja Day question?

[Warren Berger]

Yeah, it comes out of Carlin originally. He said that deja vu is when you've never been somewhere, but it feels like you've been there before. And Vuja Day is when you've been someplace a million times, but you have to try to make it seem new. You have to try to make it seem fresh. And, you know, I think in a way, that was a reference to his own comedy work. He was always trying to not get caught in the rut of doing the same kind of jokes over and over again. And he was extremely inventive. And so he would always try to figure out how to. How to reinvent his work and how to see the world around him as if he was seeing it for the first time. You know, I talked to Kelly Carlin a number of times when I was working on the book, and she said that George Carlin used to think of himself as an alien from another planet who was observing us all. And he was trying to figure out why we did things the way we did them. And that became the source of most of his material, you know, and it actually became a model for, I think, for a certain kind of observational humor that then was picked up by Seinfeld and a million other people. You know, but it was that idea of, why are people. Why do human beings do the things they do? And so to me, Vuja Day questioning is. Whenever you're doing that kind of questioning where you're. You're looking at the world as if you're seeing it for the first time, and you're asking really fundamental, basic questions about how things work, things that don't make sense, why do we do things that way? It's really useful in the world of innovation. It's one of the things that people like Steve Jobs were really, really good at. They brought that beginner's mind to the way they looked at products in the world. And then they would ask really basic questions about why in the world, does it have a but over here? That makes no sense.

[David McRaney]

So, yes, as I said in the introduction, there are a lot of kinds of questions and they have names. We've already talked about the wait question and the awe question and the Vuja Day question before we get into the main interview. Here's one more. The constraint question.

[Warren Berger]

I call them constraint questions, which is, you know, the most famous constraint question would be what if you only had 20, 24 hours to live? So the idea is you take a constraint and you either put it on or you take it off and that becomes the question that you think about. An example of putting the constraint on would be, what if you had 24 hours to live? Taking it off would be you're trying to develop a product and you say, what if we had all the money in the world? What if budget was not an issue? What would we try to do that's taking it off? So there's an interesting way you can use constraints either on or off to change reality just for a minute so you can think differently about something.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

You say, and I'm paraphrasing, but facts are only as good as the questions that you ask. And so like the, the bat, it's odd to give to think this way. I think I've spent enough time with businesses and institutions that it can be shocking to let them know that you have agency over the garbage in, garbage out thing that you might not be aware of. And you talk about this a lot. So let me, instead of saying it for you when we're talking about how to formulate these beautiful questions, what's a good example of a not beautiful question I'm sure you've come across in your experience, people who are like, you've had to help them undo the way they were doing things. I'm sure you maybe have an example of this.

[Warren Berger]

Yeah, well, I think what I encounter a lot in the business world is people are asking very, very practical, unimaginative questions in business. Oftentimes the question they may be obsessed with at a particular moment in time is how do we take this seven step process we're doing and turn it into a five step process? And that becomes the thing they're obsessed with. How do we knock two steps out of the process so it becomes slightly more efficient? Then you bring in someone, an outsider like me, and what the outsider will ask is, wait a minute, before you talk about that, let's talk about why you have this process in the first place. Why are you using this particular process when you do that it's really amazing how often you'll discover that this seven step process was created 10 years ago when the world was entirely different, the business was different. It made a lot of sense at that time, but it doesn't make sense now. So a lot of times the beautiful question can be as simple as asking, why are we doing this? And it's something companies are loathe to do. They don't know how to do that and they feel like if they're doing that, they're somehow taking a step backwards because they feel like, hey, we already figured this out. Why would we want to question ourselves and question what we already know? Because that's not moving forward, that's moving backward. So it's a hard idea to convey to people that a lot of times that kind of fundamental self questioning is just critical. You have to do it. If you don't do it, you are going to be focused on questions that are built on assumptions, questions that are assuming, okay, we're already moving in the right direction, so we just have to get two steps further down the road instead of asking are we actually moving in the right direction? Maybe things have changed and maybe we need to shift our whole approach. So that's probably one of the biggest ideas I try to convey to businesses is the, you know, how can you get comfortable with that idea that once in a while you have to step back and be willing to question almost anything you're doing in the business. Do it in very fundamental ways, do it in very creative ways, ask very imaginative questions. Hey, what if we try turning the whole thing upside down? What would happen if we did it entirely different? You're sort of trying to get them comfortable with that kind of questioning.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Yeah, I would imagine there's a hesitancy there because those kind of questions can feel a little bit like. Or maybe a lot of it. Like you're questioning whether or not you should keep doing this.

[Warren Berger]

Yes, you are.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

You're threatening the institution, which is like the big no, no.

[Warren Berger]

I think it would have been really tough a few years ago to do that in companies, but right now it's not. They are so scared, they're so nervous about all of the change that's happening around them that a lot of companies now they get it now they get it that they have to be in a whole different mode now. Of course, constantly learning, constantly adapting, questioning a lot of what they do, updating it all the time. So I think they've gotten a lot of people have gotten more comfortable with that kind of thinking. Than they would have been just a few years ago.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

I want to run through some of the categories you created and I love them very much. Let me start with naive questions, which are just the child questions, why? But there's, but you also make a very important clarification that there's also the why not? And you know, just starting with like, why is the sky blue? This reminds me of something the I like to think about questions you've never asked. But why haven't you asked this question yet? Like, one of my favorite ones is how come when something gets wet, like a piece of clothing, it gets dark? Like it becomes a dark, it appears darker. The answer is it comes from physics and involves understanding optics and how it bounces around in water molecule. But like, why have you never even asked it? Like, why has it never even occurred to you? And similar to why is the sky blue? Like, sometimes that'll come up and which leads to the deeper question that I'm trying to get to, which is why have you never looked into that? Why have you never asked yourself that? And Will Storr gave me this beautiful thought experiment that I've shared over and over again, which is the two question thought experiment. Do you think you're right about everything? And then most people say no. A small sliver of people do not. The but you ask, are you, do you think you're right about everything?

[David McRaney]

No.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Then what are you wrong about? And it's great. And then you just sit back and let it happen. What happens next? Like, and then you can ask, well, clearly you're wrong about some stuff. How come you're, are you not curious as to what that might be? Why do you not have a system for. And so I love all of that and all your book reminds me of that. So let me ask you about these naive questions. Why and why not? Like, like what is the value in this? And how do you typically approach telling people about the value of these things?

[Warren Berger]

Well, I sort of break it down into three types of questions that I'm really fond of. They are why questions, what if questions and how questions. They each do something different. When we're asking why, we're trying to understand something. Why is it the way it is? Why did this happen? Why does this problem exist? When we're asking, what if we're now moving sort of to the next stage of using our imagination? Well, what if we changed it by doing this? And then when we move to how we're getting really practical now, we're saying, well, how could we actually do That I mean, how would we get started? So a lot of times people are more focused on how because it's a more practical question, how am I going to change this behavior I have? Or how am I going to get better at doing this? Or how am I going to do that? It's sort of the action oriented question. So we as human beings like that, we like to get cut right to the chase. But what's so great about why questions is it's kind of the starting point and it kind of helps you to understand something, understand how it came about, what's the context of it. So I say to people that it's really good to start with why. When you have any kind of a problem, any kind of an issue, you're trying to figure something out, start with why questions, because that will help you get to the essence of the issue, you know, and then you can move on to, okay, well, what could I do differently? Or how would I go about changing that? But why is, to me, it's the great understanding question. It's the tool you use. It's like a shovel. You can use it to dig, right? There's a process called the five whys where you just keep asking why over and over. And you're sort of digging and digging to get to the core reason for something, you know, the real reason why something is the way it is, which a lot of times is not immediately apparent. You have to keep asking why. We think kids are crazy when they keep asking why, but they're not. They're onto something. You know, they kind of instinctively know that sometimes you have to ask why repeatedly to get to the real truth of an issue. By the way, the five whys is fascinating. The five whys came out of the Toyota Motor Company. The founder of Toyota realized that when he was trying to figure out why a problem existed, like, let's say there was a problem on the assembly line. If you asked why, you would always get the most obvious reason, why did we screw up on these parts? And the initial answer would be, well, this worker on the assembly line messed up. And then the poor guy would get fired and everyone would think that's the end of it. But if you kept asking why, you would discover, well, why did he screw up? Well, he didn't have the training, the proper training. Why didn't he have the proper training? Well, we cut back on the training program six months ago because we wanted to put more money into advertising. So what Toyota found out was if you asked why like five times like that, you would get to the real truth of the issue. And I think that's an important lesson for everyone, that why is this great question that helps us kind of dig and get to the truth.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

The kids asking why over and over again. It feels like it's adaptive in a million ways like you're describing. It also breaks through the begging the question barrier. The real what begging the question actually means in like philosophical terms, I cringe, but I don't say anything because I don't want to be that guy. When people say, well, that begs the question, like that's not what that means, by the way. But begging the question for anyone listening is when you repeat the question back as an answer. So like, if someone says, I wonder why we like puppies so much? And then they respond, because they're so cute. Like that didn't give you any information. You just said you basically changed it to why do you. You could answer it in reverse like, why do you think puppies are so cute? Because we love them so much. So there's, it's just a circular, nonsense answer. But asking why, why, why, why? Breaks through that, like, why do we love puppies so much? Because they're so cute. But why are they so cute? See, you can immediately have to go deeper and it breaks through that. So I'm a proponent of this also.

[Warren Berger]

It was interesting in my book, I probably had about 20 different stories of how a certain innovation or breakthrough started with a question. They're almost always why questions. Almost always the reason is because usually change happens because people notice something is not quite right. They notice something's not working and they want to figure out why. They want to figure out why it's not working. And then eventually they get to other questions that help them, you know, maybe change it. Like what if we tried this? Or how. But initially they're trying to understand the problem. And that's why, you know, if you look, you'll find almost all of these stories began with why. I can give you one if you want.

[David McRaney]

Yeah, please.

[Warren Berger]

Yeah. So the Polaroid instant camera, which was created back in the 1940s, tremendous product. It was the, it was like the iPhone of its time, right? It just changed everything. So it all started when the, the founder of Polaroid is on vacation with his three year old daughter and he's taking a picture with a standard camera at the time. He then puts the camera away and they, they keep walking. He keeps walking with his daughter and she asks him, can I see the picture you took? And he says, no, no, you can't you know, we have to send it out. It's a whole process. We have to send it out to be developed the film, and then we'll get it back and in a few days you'll see the picture. And she asked him, why do we have to wait for the picture? So Edwin Land, the founder of Polaroid, said that question was like. It was like a mind blower for him. It's like it completely changed. It shifted his thinking because it made him step back and say, wait a minute, why do we have to. I mean, wouldn't it be amazing if you could take a picture and see the results right away? And then he sets about going to work on the polar instant camera. And then eventually it becomes a reality. But, you know, it's that why question at the beginning, which can come from anywhere. It can come from a naive outsider. And it's just asking, you know, why does this situation exist? It's not what we want. It's not ideal. Why are we putting up with it?

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Connective inquiry, I love that term. It's just a what if question. I'm looking at my notes here. I think it was something like if you cross the river here, not here. And so you're asking why? Because, well, it's too deep in this section of the river. And the question is, well, what if we build a bridge? But also, I love your example of an alarm clock with wheels. There's a way you get there. So if you could just talk about what if questions.

[Warren Berger]

Yeah, so if you think about how new things come into the world, it's sort of like nothing gets created from scratch, right? So everything is kind of out. The parts and the pieces are already out there already. So if you're going to come up with a new form of music, you're probably going to be connecting something from this existing form of music with something from that form and just putting it together in a new way. That's the idea behind connective inquiry. There was also a term for this that was used by a designer. And of course, Einstein talked about this a lot too. But it's like combinations. This designer talked about smart recombinations. You're taking things that already exist, you're putting them together in new ways, and that's how most of creativity happens. So what I say about what if questions is that they can help you do those kinds of smart recombinations. This happens in Hollywood all the time, right? What if we take a lawyer and we put them in a situation with cheerleaders or something? Like that Jaws. Yeah, exactly. Jaws meets, you know, whatever, Superman. So basically, what if questions sort of allow you to do this kind of combining. You can say, what if I combine this with that? What if I try this? And that's why I think of what if questions as being the questions that free up our imagination. Those are the questions that allow us to experiment, do all kinds of blue sky creative thinking. We don't want to be practical at that point. We want to ask, what if we try all this crazy stuff? At some point you will have to get to the how, how are we going to actually do it? But it's a really great tool for this kind of wide open brainstorming or question storming kind of thinking.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Yeah, I love the what if the alarm clock moved farther away from me every time I tried to turn it off?

[Warren Berger]

Yeah, that was a great creation. Yeah. And again, created, you know, created by. That was a product called the Clocky created by a college student and she had trouble waking up in the morning and asked why? Why am I so late for class all the time? And it was because she just couldn't get herself to not turn off the alarm clock every time it went off. So then she had the idea of, you know, what if you created an alarm clock on wheels? And the idea would be the alarm clock would go off and then it would roll away, it would roll off the table onto the floor and you would have to get up to turn off the alarm clock. You'd have to chase it down, basically. And I just loved it because it was a great example of that sort of thinking, that kind of combination thinking that can lead to all kinds of interesting things.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Yeah, it's great. The next question is, well, how did you do that? And then it's going to be, now you start back over again. Somebody's going to tell you, well, this is how this does. Well, why is that? Well, why not? Well, what if. How and just tick a ticket ticket. Tick a tick tick.

[Warren Berger]

Yeah. Well, when you get to how, then there's all kinds of practical issues like she had to figure out, okay, if the alarm clock's going to roll off the table, what keeps it from breaking when it hits the floor? So now she has to design an alarm clock that's super sturdy and cushioned so that when it hits the floor, it doesn't break. So it's interesting. That's kind of the third part of the questioning St.

[Kitted Shop Promoter]

You had this great.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Study from Harvard where children. I have it in my notes here between the ages of 2 and 5 ask about 40,000 questions. And they don't just ask how do I open this box? They ask why? This answer, but why, but why, but why? Tunnel, tunnel, tunnel, tunnel, tunnel, tunnel. I'd like to hear more about what you found looking into the.

[Warren Berger]

Yeah, it's pretty fascinating. One of the interesting things I found was one study seemed to arrive at the four year old girl, very specific, the four year old girl as the ultimate questioner. So that's when the questioning hits some kind of an amazing peak point of 390 questions a day or something like that. Most of them directed at her mother and boys are not far behind. That four year old period is, is really intense. It continues into 5 and 6. And then it seems to, by some studies it seems to go down pretty rapidly. And that's interesting, like why is that decline, why is that rapid decline happening? Because it coincides with kids going to school. So it's like you suddenly are wondering, well gee, are they asking less questions because they're in school now? Which is kind of an interesting phenomenon. There's no one answer to the question of why the questioning seems to decline. So you've got the fact that the child was very comfortable before school. The child was very comfortable with the parents asking questions. There's no fear of that. All of a sudden the child goes into an environment where there are lots of strangers around and other kids and not quite as comfortable. And then there's just, you know, sort of the feedback or the sense that kids may be getting from school that it's the answers that matter, not the questions. So the only thing you get rewarded for in school is having the answers. You don't get rewarded for asking a question. And in fact, sometimes asking a question is almost seen as like an annoyance, right? Like we don't have time for that right now. You know, we have to move on. We have a lot of material to cover. Or you might be told that question is a little off topic. So kids pick up that message that questioning is not necessarily welcome and you're not going to get too much for it. And I think that the motivation to question starts to decline over time. And that's one of the big things that teachers are working on. And I talk to them a lot about this. How can we reverse that or stop that decline from happening? That situation where as one education writer described it, children enter school as question marks and they leave as periods. So we don't want that to happen. And so how do we keep the questioning alive? And a lot of it has to do with the environment they create in the classroom? Does it stimulate the curiosity? Do kids feel safe questioning? Can you create activities and exercises where the whole point is to ask questions instead of having the answer? Can you design this kind of an environment in a classroom? And if you can, then I think you increase the chances that students will ask more questions.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

In vacation Bible school, which is one of the worst things in the world. As growing up in the deep South, I had to go there during the summer, and I remember a teacher showing us a picture book of Noah's ark. And I had a question, and I was already a bit of a nerd. I liked sci fi. I liked fantasy. I thought this would be a really cool answer. I just asked how come the animals didn't eat each other. But I wasn't trying to question the authority of the Bible. I thought that the answer would be.

[David McRaney]

There was a spell or there was.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

A magic rock or the. Some Noah could talk to animals due to something. And I was eager to get, like, a nice, fun answer. And I remember the she. She said, oh, we don't ask those questions. And that embarrassed me. But it also. Something weird started to get generated from that response. And I remember telling my father, who he was a Vietnam vet who, for whatever reason, didn't go to church anymore. I asked like, hey, I told him all that story. And he was like, well, you don't have to go back if you don't want to. And so I did. So I was like, yay, I don't.

[Warren Berger]

Have to go there. So a question got you out of that whole situation?

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

A question got me probably out of a completely different life.

[Warren Berger]

A different life, yeah.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

But if the, you know, because the answer was, we don't ask. We don't ask those questions. We don't ask them.

[Warren Berger]

Yeah, well, it's really interesting. You know, I study a lot of, you know, innovators and people like that, and so many of them were the kids who didn't stop questioning. You know, they kept doing it, and a lot of times it got them in trouble. It got them in trouble. You know, some of them ended up being dropouts. It caused them to be the outsider or the person who was breaking the rules or something like that. And that's really a shame. But in any case, they persevered. They kept asking their questions. And a lot of times that is what made them as successful as they are, because then they get out there in the real world and they're still asking these kind of forbidden questions about, gee, why are we doing things the way we're doing them. And by asking those questions, they end up being the innovators, the change makers, those kinds of people.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

The idea, and talking about the idea of a child going in as a question mark and coming out of as a period reminds me of in psychology there's this. The worst name to anything in psychology is the makes sense stopping rule. I have to slow down to even say it. I hate that term. But it just means when you get confirmation of your assumption, you stop looking for more information. So it's that search on the Internet for like I did my research thing.

[David McRaney]

Where you look for and you get.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Something that seems like, oh, that seems like the answer because it matches my identity, morality, political disposition, blah, blah, blah, blah, my current understanding. And so I, that makes sense. So I stop looking the make sense stopping rule and the, the in school, like I'm totally with you on this. That I would rather in a science class. What you, what I would hope you learn is the scientific method and how to ask questions. That's way more important than learning the facts of the matter. Even though I do want you to know the facts. But I don't want to just say, and now you've got everything. You know, go out there and make a difference.

[Warren Berger]

That's the basics of critical thinking and it's what we need. We're all going to need critical thinking more than we've ever needed it. You know, it's, it's.

[David McRaney]

Oh, more than. I so agree with you.

[Warren Berger]

You know, it's like, think about AI, right? What? AI is a wonderful tool, but AI is only as good as your critical thinking. I mean, when that information comes back to you, you better be able to say, this sounds right, but this doesn't. And where is this coming from? Where's this info coming from? If you can't do that, then you're just going to be, you're going to be misled.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

We already needed these critical thinking skills to be able to operate Google to our search of any kind. But with AI, we're about to have video, audio, text, photo, and seemingly human agents completely proliferate across the web and beyond so that there's more content than we'll ever be able to get to that will not be generated by human beings. And if you don't have critical thinking skills, that's just going to be a noise that's going to disturb every category of interaction online. So yeah, we need this more than ever.

[Warren Berger]

Carl Sagan, Carl Sagan was Talking about this 30 years ago and he said we need built in baloney detectors. And that was his term for just the ability to ask skeptical questions, the ability to have some understanding of your own biases and the fallacies you're prone to. He was talking about all that stuff and saying. And I came across a great quote from Carl Sagan, which was from the mid-90s, where he said, you know, if we're not able to ask those kinds of skeptical questions, then we are completely susceptible to the next charlatan that comes along. And, you know, this was, I think, borne out in later years. And so I think it becomes more and more critical as we have more misinformation out there and more social media and all of that.

[Carl Sagan (archival or quoted)]

There's two kinds of dangers. One is what I just talked about, that we've arranged a society based on science and technology in which nobody understands anything about science and technology. And this combustible mixture of ignorance and power, sooner or later is going to blow up in our faces. I mean, who is running the science and technology in a democracy if the people. People don't know anything about it? And the second reason that I'm worried about this is that science is more than a body of knowledge. It's a way of thinking, a way of skeptically interrogating the universe with a fine understanding of human fallibility. If we are not able to ask skeptical questions to interrogate those who tell us that something is true, to be skeptical of those in authority, then we're up for grabs for the next charlatan, political or religious, who comes ambling along. It's a thing that Jefferson laid great stress on. It wasn't enough, he said, to enshrine some rights in a Constitution or a Bill of Rights. The people had to be educated and they had to, to practice their skepticism and their education. Otherwise, we don't run the government. The government runs us.

[Podcast Co-host or Interviewer]

Foreign.

[David McRaney]

That is it for this episode of the you are not so smart podcast. You can find all of Warren burger's stuff at warrenberger.com that's W A R-R-E-N B E-R-G-E-R.com his book is a More Beautiful Question now out in a 10th anniversary edition. And over on his website, you can take quizzes to see what kind of questioner you are, find a list of every song ever written with a question as its title, and all sorts of other fun stuff like videos and presentations and supplementary materials. He tweets. Glimmerguy. Glimmerguy. Because Glimmer is the title of one of his previous books. For links to everything we talked about, head to you arenotsosmart.com or check the Show Notes right there inside your podcast player. You can find my book How Minds Change wherever they put books on the shelves and ship them in trucks. Details are@david mccraney.com and I have links to all of that in the Show Notes as well. Right there in your podcast player. On my homepage davidmcraney.com you can find a roundtable video with a group of persuasion experts featured in my book How Minds Change. You can read a sample chapter, download a discussion guide, sign up for a newsletter, read reviews and more. For all the past episodes of this podcast, head to Apple Podcast, Spotify and Amazon Music Audible, all those places you're not so smart.com also has all the past episodes. Follow me on Twitter and threads and Instagram avidmcraney. I'm also on bluesky avidmcraney, bluesky, all that stuff. Follow the showtsmartblog over on Twitter. We're also on Facebook at Slash, you are not so smart. And if you'd like to support this one person operation. No editors, no staff, just me. Go to patreon.com you are not so smart. Pitching in at any amount gets you the show ad free. At the higher amounts you get posters, T shirts, signed books and other fun things. The opening music is Clash by Caravan Palace. And if you really, really want to support the show, just tell someone or perhaps everyone you know about an episode that really, really landed for you and check back in about two weeks for a fresh new episode.

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