You Are Not So Smart, Ep. 331: "Wicked Problems" with Dr. Martin Carcasson
Release date: January 19, 2026
Host: David McRaney
Guest: Dr. Martin Carcasson, Director of the Center for Public Deliberation at Colorado State University

Episode Overview

This episode explores the concept of "wicked problems"—complex societal challenges that resist simple solutions—focusing on the science and practice of public deliberation. Dr. Martin Carcasson shares how he and his team design systems for communities to have productive, nuanced conversations, countering the polarization, bias, and breakdowns that plague democratic discourse. The episode mixes psychology, argumentation theory, and real-world exercises to illustrate how deliberation offers a hopeful path forward for democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why We Fail at Tough Conversations

[04:15, 12:37]

• Dr. Carcasson argues that while we know how to have constructive discussions about difficult topics, these methods are seldom used at the national level.

  “We know how to do this. We know how to have these tough conversations across perspectives to get things done. It’s just very frustrating how little of it we use at the national level. And actually we use the opposite. We use stuff that we know doesn’t work right.” – Dr. Carcasson [04:15, 12:37]

• The incentives of national politics encourage bad faith, argument, and polarization, not collaborative solution-finding.

2. From Criticism to Practice: Carcasson's Shift

[06:20-07:24, 23:29]

• Carcasson's research background began in rhetorical criticism, focusing on presidents’ communication, but shifted to practical facilitation and building systems for real community engagement.

• The Center for Public Deliberation (CPD) at CSU has facilitated over 600 meetings, training students as facilitators to help communities tackle shared problems.

3. Deliberation vs Argumentation and Debate

[08:37]

• Deliberation is not debate or argumentation (which are adversarial and about winning or convincing). Instead, it is a collaborative, future-focused system that weighs values and options under uncertainty.

• Deliberation leverages what we know from social science about human nature—bypassing triggers that bring out our worst (e.g. tribalism, confirmation bias).

4. The Challenge: Cognitive Biases + Bad Actors

[12:37]

• Carcasson references the concept of being "preloaded with biases" and the rise of "conflict profiteers" who exploit them.

  “…there are a lot of bad faith actors and conflict puppeteers…purposely trying to bring out the worst in us, whether that’s to win elections or to draw eyeballs or to raise money or whatever. Our goal…is okay, now how do we try to do the counter movement here?” – Dr. Carcasson [12:37]

5. Systemic, Not Utopian Solutions

[14:10-15:39]

• Deliberative systems are about making things “good enough” to muddle through, not achieving perfection.
• The analogy to aviation and traffic systems: "an enormous amount of work" goes into building environments where our flawed brains can make safe decisions.

6. Building Community Capacity

[15:39]

• Real change must be bottom-up—developing deliberative capacity across local institutions (libraries, newspapers, schools) and collaborating with organizations like Braver Angels and the Listen First Project.

7. What Are “Values” and Why Do They Matter?

[28:09-34:51]

• In conversations, values are often the hidden drivers—stable, socially-learned preference structures guiding judgments, attention, and decisions.
• Most people share similar values (freedom, equality, justice, etc.), but rank and define them differently. The friction comes from this prioritization, not fundamental opposition.

• “Values tend to be pretty abstract... we all tend to share most of the same values…It’s just that…as individuals, we rank values like that differently.” – David McRaney [32:35]

8. Fact, Value, and Policy Claims: Mapping the Terrain

[34:51-40:37]

• Dr. Carcasson explains three types of claims:
  • Factual: about realities that can be checked.
  • Value: about what is good, bad, important.
  • Policy: what should we do.
• Most debates focus at the policy level, but are really about hidden value tensions.

9. The Nature of Wicked Problems

[40:53-44:00]

• Wicked problems are complex and have no "right answer" because they're constituted by conflicting values—education, healthcare, housing, climate, etc.
• Unlike "tame" technical problems, wicked ones are never "solved" but managed with ongoing negotiation among values.

• “Wicked problems inherently involve multiple underlining values that don't fit together very well…there is no right answer. You don’t solve a wicked problem.” – Dr. Carcasson [40:53]

10. The Value Ranking Exercise: A Tool for Epiphany

[45:38-52:03]

• Carcasson's workshop involves participants ranking a set of core values (community, freedom, tradition, etc.) from most to least important, then reflecting together.

• Key moments include:

  • Recognizing that even like-minded people rank values differently.
  • Realizing that every value can “dominate too much.”
  • Gaining empathy for why others might prioritize a value one puts low.

• “Having those conversations, you realize you might have a value really low that your neighbor has really high. But then when they’re talking about what that value means to them, they’re like, well, yeah, if that’s what it means, I would have it high too. So you just start realizing, wait a second, we agree on this.” – Dr. Carcasson [46:14]

11. How Deliberation Practically Works

[54:07-59:02]

• Deliberation is slow and intentional. Key elements include:

  • Pre-meeting research to surface factual and value claims.
  • Discussion guides: not persuasive, but laying out all major perspectives and tradeoffs.
  • Facilitators focus on elevating the conversation, not winning arguments.

• Avoid binary yes-no framing—instead, offer multiple options and highlight trade-offs.

• “Your job is to elevate the conversation, not win the argument.” – Dr. Carcasson [59:16]

12. Sources of Optimism and the Path Forward

[60:23-65:14]

• Tools exist, and the science is clear—we know how to design better conversations and systems.

• The three central challenges:

  • Toxic polarization (often exaggerated by perception).
  • Information disorder (overload, missing gatekeepers, distrust).
  • Conflict profiteers (media, political and tech actors benefiting from division).

• The solution: shift from seeing problems as caused by “wicked people” to “wicked problems,” and build grassroots deliberative capacity.

• “Even if you think the problem is caused by wicked people, telling people…they’re wicked is very unlikely to make them less wicked. It’s going to backfire… So the better we change our conversations, the harder it’s going to be for the conflict profiteers, for the people that are purposely dividing us.” – Dr. Carcasson [64:55]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We know how to do this. It's just very frustrating how little of it we use at the national level.” – Dr. Carcasson [04:15]
• “Deliberation is a collective cognitive process aimed at figuring out what to do next, what the plan should be.” – David McRaney [08:37]
• “Our brains don't like messy. Our brains don't like nuance. We like simple stories.” – Dr. Carcasson [36:32]
• “I think humans are incredibly creative problem solvers when put in a good situation. Our political system doesn’t put us in good situations.” – Dr. Carcasson [26:47]
• “The art of creating a document that the purpose… is to spark good conversation – that is an art. We need a lot more…” – Dr. Carcasson [55:10]
• “Your job is to elevate the conversation, not win the argument.” – Dr. Carcasson [59:16]
• “Move from the simple assumption of wicked people to the nuanced assumption of wicked problems.” – Dr. Carcasson [64:25]

Key Segment Timestamps

• Understanding Values & Group Exercise: [00:15]-[04:15], [45:38]-[52:03]
• Intro to Carcasson's Work / Deliberative Systems: [04:15]-[08:37], [15:39]
• Deliberation vs. Argument/Debate: [08:37]-[12:37]
• Cognitive Bias & Systemic Challenges: [12:37]-[15:39], [60:23]
• What Are Wicked Problems?: [40:53]-[44:00]
• How Deliberative Facilitation Works: [54:07]-[59:02]
• Optimism & Moving Forward: [60:23]-[65:14]

Takeaways for Listeners

• Most intractable societal problems are “wicked” due to conflicting, abstract values—taming them requires systemic, collaborative, science-informed deliberation, not just debate or advocacy.
• Empathy increases and polarization decreases when people surface, share, and discuss their ranking of values.
• Deliberative workshops, guided by trained facilitators and evidence-based materials, can transform the quality of public discourse and problem-solving.
• Building these systems at a local/community level is essential for long-term democratic resilience.

Further Resources

• Listen First Project: listenfirstproject.org
• Center for Public Deliberation at CSU: link (Check for future “meeting-in-a-box” resources.)
• Braver Angels, National Issues Forum—see episode for more organizations.
• Value Sorting Exercise: Try for yourself by ranking community, freedom, individual responsibility, diversity, tradition, progress, equality, justice, and security, and discuss in a group.