← You Can Heal Your Life ™
You Can Heal Your Life ™
Anu Gupta & Dr. Deborah Egerton | From Bias to Belonging
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hi everybody. I'm so excited to be here today. I am Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton and we are talking today to my dear friend Anu Gupta. And I'm so excited to introduce him to you and to have this conversation. Anu, how are you?
- [00:29]
B
I'm doing so well now that I'm here to be a part of this conversation with you. So thank you so much for the invitation.
- [00:37]
A
Well, and thank you so much for your new book, which will be coming out shortly. What's the launch date?
- [00:45]
B
It's September 17th, so it's out everywhere you can find books.
- [00:51]
A
It's already on pre order. I know that. Yeah, dude, I've pre ordered mine and I'm already, you know, gone through it and I'm just so excited. Anu, when I first heard about you, my heart grew 10 times. It really did. Because as you know, you know, I've been doing this work around Breaking Bias for a long time. And it's so important to me to see new light coming into the world, new ways of approaching, you know, this, this challenge that we face in terms of people not understanding that we are more connected and more alike than we are different. But the differences do matter. And Anu, I think that it would just be so informative if you just share a little bit about your personal background and how it brought you to writing this book.
- [01:56]
B
Yeah. Thank you so much. And you know, I am also grateful because I'm really walking in your footsteps. Right. Because this work has been done for so long before me. It's one of, I think one of the most important challenges bias that we need to tackle as a species in the 21st century. So basically, you know, how I came to the work of Breaking Bias. So as you can tell from my name and you, Gupta, I'm not, you know, from a European or Anglo background. I was born in India and my family immigrated to the US when I was 10 years old. So I grew up bicultural and. But also after moving to the U.S. i became an other. Right. I wasn't clear. I didn't clearly fit the black and white boxes that I was first kind of first confronted after moving here. But also, I'm a queer man. I'm a queer person. You know, my family is from a Hindu Buddhist background. There's a lot of things about me that were new to my new country and as a result I faced a lot of experienced a lot of othering and that got a little bit more high pressured after 9 11. But where I was assumed to be Muslim and Arab, and thereby witnessed and experienced a lot of Islamophobia. But as like a good immigrant kid, for me, I was, I would just ignore a lot of the name calling, the slurs, and even sometimes physical violence because I was like, well, I just have to succeed. And they just don't know anything. People just don't know better. But simultaneously, because I was so nerdy and bookish, I wanted to learn why people are so cruel for no other reason than our being right. Like, I can't change my skin color, I can't change my family, I can't change my background. So that's what led me to in law in undergrad to study actually international relations and Islamic studies. And after college I lived abroad in various societies, in South Korea, in Myanmar, in Malaysia, Mexico, just to understand how bias really works. And particularly working on issues of human rights in social justice, which took me to get a master's degree in this work and really look, think about the root causes of challenges, intractable challenges like poverty and hunger. And that analysis, systems design thinking really took me to law school. And that's where I confronted discrimination and bias once again. Because I returned to the US and all the things that I was running away from, you know, came back. And it kind of lit a match of self loathing within myself where I, you know, found myself before my second year of law school began, on the 18th floor of my apartment building, about to jump off. But for me, that moment of, you know, suicidality, suicide attempt, whatever folks want to call it, was also a moment of grace because for whatever reason, instead of falling forward, I fell backwards. And within moments I called a friend who lived quite far away from me, but happened to be walking on my block at that moment. So again, it's literally the universe working. And she showed up in my apartment and we talked. And the next day I began my own breaking bias journey. You know, I had, I just.
- [05:17]
A
What you just, just said, you know, just. I just have to take a moment to honor that because to be honest with you, my whole purpose of throwing myself into this work has been to be able to be there for people like you in those moments. People do not understand how this heinous othering can literally, literally take someone to their knees and to the point of not only not being seen, but believing that you don't belong.
- [06:07]
B
Yes.
- [06:08]
A
Anu, you have so many areas of intersectionality that, you know, make this even more complicated. Can you speak a little bit to that? How intersectionality, how it actually compounds the whole process of othering.
- [06:29]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think for me, you know, as I shared, for me, like that moment was the wake up call. And I then immersed myself in understanding what is this thing? How did I come to believe all these lies about myself at the conscious and unconscious level? And how can I unlearn them? And that's basically why, you know, I've been doing this work of breaking bias for 10 years. But also I needed to write this book, particularly after witnessing what happened on January 6, 2021, because I was just like, wow, like I'm training a lot of people. That's just like not even a drop in the bucket. So how do we really shift human consciousness? And it's particularly really important because of the topic, you know, the word that you use that I deep into the book as well, intersectionality, which is basically the particularity, the uniqueness of anyone's humanity. So it's not just about me, it's everyone. It's about you. It's about and everyone we meet because we are basically at the intersections of many, many different identities. And for me it's of course, you know, when it comes to my sexuality, I'm queer. When it comes to my gender identity, I'm male, I'm a man. When it comes to, you know, my ethnic background, I'm, you know, of Indian origin, Asian American. When it comes to my religious beliefs, the intersection of Buddhist, Christian and Hindu. So like there's. And that itself is intersectional because you don't find a lot of people that are prescribing themselves to multiple faith traditions. But I am all of those things, you know, I'm at the intersection of all of those things, you know, and I feel like that's what each one of us, regardless of how many, you know, how much wealth we have, how many other identities we have that maybe is pre perceived to be privileged or marginalized or subordinated. We're all at the intersections of many, many identities. You know, someone can be fat or thin, tall, short, like this is all part of who we are. This is the, our inheritance as humans. And for me it's really breaking bias is the opportunity for us to celebrate that, celebrate the fullness of who we are. Because I know personally, I've spent so many hours of my life wishing I was someone else. What a waste of my human potential, what a waste of my energy, right? And that is, you know, my invitation for us to really evolve our consciousness beyond these hierarchies that do us no good.
- [09:00]
A
I agree with you so wholeheartedly there, you know, a lot of the work that we're both doing is really around getting people to find and embrace their authentic self.
- [09:14]
B
Yes.
- [09:15]
A
And to accept yourself. The concept of self. Love is not just a bunch of words to throw in the air. And it's not pampering. It's really understanding who you are and loving who you are and not having to hide who you are, be ashamed of who you are, you know, with you. You get on a plane in India and you come to the United States of America and you discover that there's a bunch of stereotypes that have been labeled on you. And as a result of that, your whole life changes in some way and not necessarily for the better.
- [10:05]
B
Yeah.
- [10:06]
A
As you were, as you were growing up and all of these things were happening to you, you know, the good, bad, and the ugly, what were you saying to young Anu? What were you saying to yourself to survive it?
- [10:24]
B
Yeah. It's such a good question. And I think for me, I believe the lies. So what I was saying to young Anew was that I need to be like this. I need. Because also, like, there are these standards of masculinity and femininity. And a lot of the bullying that I experienced was because I was perceived as queer or as gay, which really meant that I was in a boy's body, but acted what people assumed to be more feminine by the ways I move my hands or the inflections in my tone or by my gait, like little micro things that make us human, like human expression. But even that sensing that oftentimes triggered in someone else an act of fear and hate, which, of course, harmed me. So as a result, I was walking around the world on eggshells, so vigilant all the time. And I think that was, you know, for me, that this journey of breaking bias as a result, has been so liberating because I no longer have to prescribe to what other people want me to be, who they want me to be, because that sense of liberation really comes from within. But then also, it was really important for me to, because I am like a big nerd, to begin to dispel these myths, begin to understand how did we get brainwashed into believing these ideas of right and wrong, good or bad, particularly about who we are as a people, who we are as a species? You know, we've always been incredibly diverse. We'll always be incredibly diverse, and not just as many. Many different types of people, but we're incredibly diverse as humans ourselves. Like, I have a lot of diversity in this just one being. So do you. So does everyone else? And I think part of the opportunity is for us to accept that and celebrate that as opposed to fitting ourselves in a mold. Because when we fit ourselves in a mold that's created by an external person, we become numb. We repress and suppress and oppress ourselves, which manifests in physical, emotional, psychological, mental pain and suffering. And that's no good for the evolution of our species moving forward.
- [12:45]
A
Right. And thank you so much to being able to respond to what you were saying to young Anu, because for our listeners, it's so important to realize how early this starts and how early the pain and the suffering that is caused by othering and by treating people differently based on some aspect of their being, it can actually totally destroy a human being's sense of self. And the trajectory of their life will follow that. And, you know, for you to give voice to this now is not only important to us grownups, but I think us grownups who are already fully into adulting, the ones who are raising children and ones who are following us, and hopefully we are making a better way for the youth of this time to be able to move forward with less of this going on. So, as you were speaking, I'm fascinated because as you know, I do enneagram work and you do the breaking bias work and you have the model of the prism, and both of these, you know, sort of modalities are really based in some ancient spiritual traditions combined with modern psychology. And I would love for you to sort of talk about your toolkit and some of the ways that you are getting people to do this work at a deeper level.
- [14:39]
B
Yeah, that's a great question. So let's begin with, you know, what's really important for folks to understand is that the way to understand bias is that bias is a learned habit. It comes in two forms. There are conscious biases which are learned false beliefs. You know, these false beliefs are rich people are hard working and poor people are lazy or men are stronger than women. These are false beliefs like, but these are conscious. They could also be unconscious, which is learned habits of thoughts. So if I say the word surgeon, for example, who is the person that comes to mind? What is their gender? What is their color, what is their height? Right. These are the learned association which become unconscious bodies are learned habits of thoughts. Both forms of biases distort how we perceive reason, remember, and make decisions. So when people saw me speak a certain way, talk a certain way with my color, with my name, you know, that impacts the way the lens through which they see me, how they make decisions toward me. So that's what bias is, especially when it's harmful. Right, because it distorts who we are. The cool thing now is that just as biases are learned, they can be unlearned. And that's the magic of neuroscience. And has demonstrated it, demonstrated what all ancient wisdom traditions have always known. But they've used MRIs, they've used these experiments to demonstrate that, oh, this works to really appease this doubting mind. It's not a doubting mind. It's basically people in positions of power who are like, oh, this is intractable and nothing can be done about it. And they're like, no, we can do something about it. That's what the PRISM Toolkit is. And PRISM stands for five tools. It's an acronym. And we really start with M, and then we move our way up to perspective. Taking M starts for mindfulness. Mindfulness is the bedrock of PRISM Toolkit. And it's really about just noticing and becoming aware of what's happening in the mind, in the body, in our emotions, at any moment. When it comes to stereotyping, noticing stereotypes arise, noticing the emotional effect, noticing any stories and concepts. And the idea isn't to suppress or repress. If shame comes up, you're like, oh my God, I'm such a sexist or racist. That's okay. Notice the shame too. But the idea is to shine the light of awareness because that's the beginning. To create space, you know, from using them to make decisions. Then we move to stereotype replacement, which is replacing the stereotype, you know, these negative beliefs with a positive counterexample. Someone who doesn't, who basically contradicts the stereotype. In the lab, they really used for black men, for example, images of Dr. King. But it doesn't have to be Dr. King. It could be anyone. It could be your partner, your friend, your boss, whomever who basically breaks that stereotype. Because every single one of the 20 million black men in America are unique individuals, you know, so that's where we're basically neurons that fire together, wire together. So we're weakening that wiring. And then we move to individuation, which is the practice of curiosity. When I'm with Dr. E, I'm with Dr. E versus my ideas of her so really wanting to be with the individual. So that's where we're really loosening and creating diverse mental models within our own minds and in our own nervous systems. And then we move to the hard practices of pro social behavior. That's for our. That's Active cultivation of compassion, empathy, joy, equanimity, and a whole host of positive mental and emotional states. Now, people often think that, oh my gosh, like, we should just be born with these. Actually, no, they're skills. And we can cultivate these skills using compassion meditations or loving kindness meditation and a whole host of other interventions. And then we move to perspective taking, which is kind of the radical act of imagining what it's like to be in the shoes of another. Oftentimes we ask, well, I want to be guided by my better angels. We're actually practicing perspective taking. We're visualizing what our better angels would do in this situation. We're putting ourselves in their shoes. And that's basically what a lot of our ancient wisdom keepers have done to this day. And this is what the science is demonstrating is what's needed for us to do to breakfast. And the promise is that it takes us anywhere from three to eight weeks to adopt a new habit. So, of course, this could be a lifelong practice, but it's a new way of being that we can really cultivate in as little as three weeks. Right. And for me, like, the medium of meditation is really helpful. The medium of visualization is really helpful. You know, the medium, like all these mediums, right. That these mechanisms that we have, we have incorporated in our lives to really move into the fullness of our being through prism Toolkit.
- [19:32]
A
Right. That's beautiful. I love. I love the toolkit. And I know that. I know that these things work. You know, there's never been a time where I've done this work where I haven't called people together and asked them to just first get fully present, you know, and then we can begin. But the interesting thing is, you know, when you are doing this work, and I know you go into organizations just like I do, and you have your people who. I always say you have your prisoners. You have your people who are the partiers, the ones who. It's a day off from work, so I'll come anyway. The prisoners don't want to be there at all. And then there are the learners who really think they're going to get something out of it. I'm curious, when you're doing the work, when you get resistance from people, how do you meet that? Because I think a lot of our listeners who are on board and are going to rush out, buy your book, they're going to try to do it for themselves, but they also want some of the people that they love to open their hearts and as well. What do you recommend that they do to maybe bring some other people along. They don't have our degrees, they haven't studied it like we have, but how can they bring others along?
- [21:01]
B
Such a great question. And so, you know, for me, I was a middle school teacher after college, I, when I lived in South Korea, I was teaching middle school and as a result had to go through a lot of training around how to work with kids. And since transitioning to teaching adults, I realized that our learning starts are very similar. And a few things that are really helpful in teaching about making bias and learning more generally is making sure that the learning container is shame free. That's really important because shame is an afflictive emotion and it basically shuts down our nervous system and it prevents us from growing and learning. And I think oftentimes people move into this conversation to be like, okay, I'm going to take a big deep breath and I'm ready to be uncomfortable. I'm like, no, no, no, it doesn't have to be any of that. Actually, we're going to show up authentically. And for me, that's why even you know, I have some shared agreements which are super important to follow to keep shame, blame and guilt at bay. And then also it's really important to create a container where that, where everybody feels psychologically safe because people feel like they're going to be harmed, which is why they get so defensive. So that's, the safety piece is really important so we can really build trust because ultimately, what bias does it severs trust. And for me, I've worked with over 300 organizations and trained thousands of professionals and we haven't encountered that much resistance because we lead with the prism toolkit, because we lead with this embodied experience that, oh, wow, this is what peace feels like. This is what belonging in my body feels like. This is what belonging in this workplace would feel like if I fully embraced myself. I think that embodied experience is really important. Then of course, when questions come up, we have the evidence to respond to that. But ultimately it's really about making sure that people feel emotionally at peace. Because bias is an emotional issue. It's deeply personal. It's very painful. So as a result, we need to have as many goodies and cushions around for people to navigate this in a, you know, gentle way. Particularly if, you know, for me, the goal is really behavior change. I don't want to convince, I don't really care to convince people of what's right and wrong. It's ultimately, how do we change our behaviors so we could, you know, we're not causing harm in our actions. And we can address these massive disparities, whether they're based on race or gender or any other identity and the injustice in our society. And at the micro level, it really begins with us, whether we're in the classroom or the courtroom or the boardroom. And that's the, you know, shift of heart and mind that this work is about for me.
- [23:56]
A
Yes, well, you know, we're 100% on the same page. I always say shame, blame and guilt are paralytics, you know, and it paralytics, you know, they stop you in your tracks and they don't help anyone. And so it's important for people to understand that, you know, if you're feeling that, you've got to do that work. And speaking of that work, let's just go back a little bit to the individual. We know what we do. We go out into organizations and we're there to help hold that safe container. But there's some inner work that people need to do. And as you've heard me say, our individual energy adds to the collective energy of the world. So if we're not doing this work as individuals, then in reality we're not moving forward together and we want to do that. So in terms of people just doing the individual work, they have your book, they're at home, they're determined that they're going to, by the time they get to that last page, you know, they're going to have this down. In your words, just sort of give the homework assignment, you know, lay out the assignment of how to begin as an individual who's trying to do this work.
- [25:33]
B
Yeah, well, I think first of all, I think what the invitation for me is really giving ourselves permission and believe that we can live in a world without bias. And not just, you know, from an intellectual place, but from a felt sense, embodied space. Who would I be, how would I feel if this was true? And that is really important because oftentimes we're steeped in cynicism around this work and doubt. And for me, you know, when my cynical mind comes in, I'm like, well, if people are going to imagine colonizing Mars, which they will at some point, why can't we imagine living in a world without bias? Right? Like, what is stopping us from that? And that's where I think the moral imagination has to shift. And that's really the step one. And then basically for me, one of the reasons why I started my organization be More is I was doing a lot of in person trainings, but I feel like I and many other facilitators and experts in this field are set up for failure because we're doing two things at once. We're managing people's emotions who are at different levels of understanding of this concept, and we're teaching new information, and that's really challenging, you know, within all, within an hour. So I realized that there are just massive information gaps and so much misinformation, so there has to be some level setting. And that's what I really tried to do with this book and with all of my courses, is like, hey, this is the bare minimum you need to know to understand bias, to understand racial bias or gender bias or any other form of bias. And now that you now understand that, let's now get you emotionally caught up, which is where the prism toolkit really comes in. And that's my invitation. In the book, I, you know, folks do end up reading it. I ask people to stop after reading certain portions and actually do exercises so we can digest and integrate this information within our nervous systems. That's really important because in order for us to respond, not react, respond, we need to build that inner soul force. And we do that with our bodies and our hearts. We have all the components. Right. But let the mind rest a little bit.
- [27:57]
A
Absolutely. Absolutely. I love the way you approach this. You know, we. We could actually just push a button and begin to speak and change faces and bodies, and we'd be saying very same thing. And one of the additional points here, and I know that we are in agreement on this, and I think it's important to tease this out, but how important is the concept of doing this work from a place of being, at least in the healing process, and from a place of love rather than from a place of anger and frustration and actually fragility. Fragility as well.
- [28:52]
B
I think it's essential because love is the only thing that moves people to shift and change and transform. With that said, if people find themselves in anger, frustration, credulity, I invite people to become mindful of that, mindful of this thematic experience, mindful of the emotions, the stories, the concepts that arise. Document it, write it down, be with it, feel with it. Right? Because part of what's needed is beneath that, there's some pain.
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A
Yes.
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B
Something that's unacknowledged. And I think for me, I'll just speak for my example. I think for me, using the prism toolkit to acknowledge all of those things, notice, acknowledge, and really feel through those things really helped me understand and transform the way I Showed up in my world. You know, I like to say that oftentimes in our Western culture, we are trained to lead with our minds. That's okay. But the mind by itself is a terrible master, but it is a great servant. Right? So. And that's kind of the opportunity here. And for us to really. I think there's another similar. You know, you have to name it to tame it. So name the anger, name the frustration, name the fragility, and then get to the, you know, the bottom of it. Because it's not only going to unleash, allow you to break bias and feel closer to yourself and others. It's going to benefit you in all aspects of your life, ways you couldn't even imagine.
- [30:30]
A
Absolutely. You know, I so agree. And I think it's important for our listeners to be aware that, you know, the intelligence and the wisdom that we have doesn't just come from the brain. So understanding that, you know, there's the intelligence of the mind, the heart, and the wisdom of the body as well. And when we call these the three centers of intelligence, when they're aligned, that's when we're better able to respond rather than react. But doing that work on the wound itself and recognizing that we have to stop and look at what's inside and take responsibility for it and then do some healing work ourselves so that we can be part of the healing process going forward for others as well. And love is the great healer. It always has been, it always will, always will be. Well, Anu, this is amazing, and I'm glad we're having this, you know, virtual experience, but I can't wait for us to get together and have our live experience and spend some time together. And, you know, they call me the Enneagram Jedi and the Love Warrior. So I'll just end this by saying that when we get together, I'm going to give you your honorary Love Warrior package.
- [32:07]
B
Thank you. I can't wait for it.
- [32:10]
A
It's going to be very special. And at any point in time, please know that from the bottom of my heart, I appreciate you just being in the world, being who you are, being exactly, just unabashedly, authentically yourself. And that does so much to heal so many coming trouble.
- [32:44]
B
Agree.
- [32:45]
A
I honor you.
- [32:46]
B
Thank you. Thank you, thank you. And I honor you, too. And thank you so much for this lovely conversation. And I'm really excited for anyone who's listening to engage with me, to engage with this work and to be a part of this movement we're building, this movement of love to truly build a world where belonging replaces bias. That's my prayer, right?
- [33:11]
A
Mine as well. And I think our books should.
- [33:13]
B
Oh, yeah, let's do it. And we can have a ceremony for them.
- [33:19]
A
Love you so much.
- [33:20]
B
And this is you, too. Thank you. Thank you.
- [33:36]
A
Sa.