Anna Kendrick

Summary

You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes — Anna Kendrick (October 16, 2024)

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Episode Overview

In this candid and hilarious episode, Pete Holmes welcomes Anna Kendrick, celebrated actor and first-time director, to discuss her new Netflix film Woman of the Hour — a psychological thriller based on the true story of a serial killer who appeared on "The Dating Game". The conversation weaves together movie insights, on-set stories, gender roles, personal vulnerability, and the weirdness of human psychology. Beyond the film, Anna and Pete open up about therapy, relationships, creative confidence, and their mutual appreciation for honesty in art and life.

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Main Discussion Points and Insights

1. Woman of the Hour: Creating the Film and Its Themes

• Film Premise: Based on the real-life case of a serial killer on a 1970s game show, starring and directed by Anna Kendrick, with Pete Holmes in a supporting role.
• Genre and Approach: Anna intended to make a psychological thriller with deeper emotional resonance, drawing more from drama than from traditional horror (45:03–45:50).
  • "Deep down, I was like, I'm making a drama. Like, I'm really making something about grief." — Anna (45:03)
• Opening Choice: The movie’s most violent moment happens early; Anna cites No Country for Old Men as inspiration, letting the trauma’s shadow loom rather than explicit violence (03:14–03:43).
• Gender and Power: Discussion about the burden on women to appease "King Babies" — men whose emotional fragility requires women to shrink or "fawn" to survive. The film explores the fawn response and the dangers of women's socialization to avoid conflict (14:42–17:45).
  • “It's almost like the whole movie is kind of an exploration of the fawn response.” — Anna (14:44)
  • “Sometimes women and marginalized people have to kind of shrink and fawn to survive. And it's not as simple as going, just be assertive.” — Anna (17:28)
• Game Show as Metaphor: The killer (Bachelor #3) is the best at the game — most empathetic-seeming, charming — highlighting how sociopaths can win trust by mirroring what others want to see (22:04–24:41).
  • “The bachelor, the third bachelor, the serial killer, is the best at the game... That’s a true nightmare.” — Pete (23:13)

2. On Directing and Creative Confidence

• Anna discusses the performance of confidence versus actually feeling it as a first-time director, and the need to repair relationships with the crew when things go awry (07:38–09:36).
  • “When I would watch the dailies back... I'd kind of see myself run into the frame and, like, give a note... I really did feel like, oh, that lady seems like she knows what she's doing.” — Anna (07:38)
• Pete compares directing to parenting — it's about embracing imperfection and practicing “the repair” (09:56–11:16).
  • “Life is the repair.” — Val, via Pete (10:55)

3. Character Dynamics and Microaggressions

• Pete reflects on his role as Cheryl’s needy, invasive male neighbor — a comic relief that mirrors the broader themes of male entitlement and microaggression (29:25–31:18).
  • “There are all these microcosms of the whole movie... I need you. And look, I'm only talking about me. I'm not talking about all men. And I mean me. Pete Holmes, there is a baby that's like, please see me.” — Pete (30:42)
• Anna notes the film repeatedly asks, “Do you see me as human?” — especially as her character navigates male-dominated, dismissive spaces (36:56–38:04).

4. Victim Blaming and the Socialized Response to Threat

• The film acts as an antidote to victim blaming, showing how even the audience can find themselves drawn in by a killer’s charm (24:07–25:19).
  • “I found themselves starting to root for the killer and then feeling horrible about the fact that they were rooting for him.” — Anna (24:07)

5. Personal Vulnerability, Therapy, and Abuse Recovery

• Anna openly discusses her journey through, and after, an abusive relationship during the pandemic; how living with someone who refused introspection led her to self-help, therapy, and ultimately, to the podcast (54:02–59:19).
  • “I basically realized I was in an abusive relationship... And that kind of started me on... I discovered this podcast because I was sort of really searching for something.” — Anna (54:02)
• Pete and Anna bond over how honest public conversations (especially on podcasts) can be healing for those trapped in cycles of shame or rigidity.
• They discuss the difficulty of escaping abusive dynamics — the importance of recognizing reality, reclaiming identity, and the impossibility of “debate” as a way out (82:14–87:23).
  • “‘The way out of a situation like this is to not. Don't debate...’ My advice… is they'll say, ‘You're gonna regret this.’ And you say, ‘I might.’” — Pete (82:14–83:11)

6. Creativity (Acting and Directing) as Collaboration

• Both talk about the necessity of actors doing “unlikeable” things for the good of the film. Anna praises Daniel Zovatto’s (the killer's) generosity in playing “the guy you hate,” saying it helps the audience invest in the women’s stories (101:13–102:08).
  • “The kind of generosity of an actor to go, well, really, this movie is about every. Every actor that I'm in a scene with. It's more about them than about me.” — Anna (100:59)
• Anna shares that as a performer, she tries to help editors, directors, and crew — “thinking about the edit for years”— and how her ADHD makes her alert to the needs of everyone on set (89:17–91:05).

7. On Validation, Honesty, and the Messiness of Need

• Both admit to the lifelong yearning for external validation (“mommy, did you like it?”) and the danger/necessity of being honest about needing to be “seen” (33:06–34:28).
• Memorable line:
  • “If a woman won’t validate me... I don't exist.” — Pete (31:22)
• Anna’s favorite line from the film:
  • “Did you feel seen?”
    “I felt looked at.” — Cheryl, in Woman of the Hour (68:29)

8. Processing Loss and Performing Through Grief

• Anna describes her father's death happening during production, and Tony Hale’s invaluable advice: “You'll grieve when you’re with your safe people.” (123:40–125:18)
  • “He said, it's okay if until this is over, that just didn't happen. You're not in pathological denial. You're not dishonoring or disrespecting your dad. You'll grieve when you're with your safe people.” — Anna (124:12)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Directing & Confidence

  • “I was trying really hard to seem confident and assured. Well, I don't know. I guess the truth is, I can't be sure at what... When I was kind of performing confidence and when I really had confidence.”
    — Anna (07:38)

• About the Film’s Core Dynamic

  • “Would you wander into your male neighbor's apartment in this way and, like, just start picking up all his stuff while he's on the phone and not, you know, picking up the cue of, like, Terry, I really fucking want you to leave.”
    — Anna (37:39)

• On Escaping Abuse

  • “I think there might be something more complicated. Where it is like, well, he possesses empathy. Like, I don't think it's as simple as saying, oh, bad guys don't have empathy... and then there's a point where you're like, well, are we gonna fuck or not?... and the petulance that comes through... underneath it is really rage.”
    — Anna (38:45–39:51)
  • “Sometimes people say, ‘You'll regret this!’ And you say, ‘I might.’ That takes all the power away.” — Pete (83:11)

• On the Need to Be Seen

  • “The dissonance in every scene for my character is, do you see me as human?” — Anna (37:16)

• On Processing Loss While Working

  • “My dad died. You know, we were shooting. We were at the start of a shooting day, and my brother called me and told me my dad had passed... Tony [Hale] said, ‘You'll grieve when you’re with your safe people.’”
    — Anna (123:40–124:12)

• On Validation and Relationship Dynamics

  • “Of course there's gonna be a part of you going, mommy, did you like it?” — Anna (33:06)
  • “If you were a narcissist, you wouldn't say that.” — Val, via Pete (75:22)

• On Finding Spiritual/Philosophical Relief

  • “If I were them, I'd be them... and if you were you, you'd be you, too. We can extend the compassion to your judgment.” — Anna & Pete (112:59–113:04)

• On Working with Meryl Streep

  • "[Meryl] starts talking about acting. And I'm like, oh, it's happening, it's happening. Don't move... and she says, but, you know, the close up, I mean, that's really where it happens. That's where you take your truth. That's where— and this PA comes in and goes, ‘Meryl, ...there's Manuka honey in the break room..."
    — Anna (132:40–134:36)

• On Clooney’s Generosity

  • “He goes, do you ever get insecure? I always feel like, oh, God, do they even— they hire me? But do they really want me? Ugh, I feel so insecure. And I was like, clune, oh, my God. Yeah...”
    — Anna (137:35–138:19)
    (She later realizes this was Clooney's way of helping her acclimate on her first day.)

• The "Cheeseburger" as a Directing Lesson

  • “We’re gonna do more fucking takes of me walking around this cheeseburger than we are of my close up when I'm, like, doing... the heart moment for my character. And he was absolutely fucking right.”
    — Anna on Ben Affleck, “The Accountant” (151:40–152:33)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro and Movie Talk: 02:00–07:23
• Directing, Confidence, and Repair: 07:23–12:00
• Film’s Feminist Themes: 12:00–25:41
• On Validation and Microaggressions: 31:18–38:04
• Character/Plot Connections and Spoilers: 38:04–46:03
• Personal Vulnerability, Therapy, Abuse: 54:02–63:37, 83:31–87:23
• Loss, Grieving, and Working: 123:40–126:39
• Lighthearted/Behind the Scenes (Meryl Streep, Clooney, Cheeseburgers): 132:01–153:37

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Tone and Language

The episode is warm, funny, and brutally honest, mixing intellectual musings with self-deprecating humor and supportive mutual compliments. Both Anna and Pete toggle between deeply philosophical reflection and comic riffs, maintaining a conversational and authentically “weird” vibe throughout.

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For New Listeners

If you haven’t heard the episode, you can expect a rare, emotionally open Hollywood interview, offering insights not just about filmmaking and acting, but about the inner workings of therapy, boundary-setting, gendered socialization — and how art, honesty, and a little weirdness can help us all get through life.

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Memorable Sign-off

Pete: “Would you please say, 'keep it crispy'?”
Anna: “Keep it crispy. Imagine if I was like... Wait, what? I am such a fan of the product.” (154:50–154:53)

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TL;DR: Episode Essence

Anna Kendrick and Pete Holmes dive deep into the creative, emotional, and psychological themes behind Woman of the Hour, sharing personal stories of vulnerability, resilience, and honesty—on screen and in life. The episode is a masterclass in being “seen” and in finding humor in the weirdness of being human.

Transcript

[A]

You made it weird.

[B]

You made it with.

[A]

You made it weird. Oh, yeah.

[B]

You made it weird. Yes, you did. You made it weird with Pete Holmes. What's happening, weirdos? This is a big one. This is Anna Kendrick. I can't believe it. She's so wonderful. She has a new movie which I am also in called Woman of the Hour. It is out this Friday on Netflix. I've seen it twice now. It is unbelievable. It is a thriller. It's based on a true story of a. A serial killer that was on the game show the Dating Game, which is really, really interesting, really terrifying and fascinating. And it is thematically a really important movie and a funny movie and a scary movie and a thrilling movie. And I absolutely love it. And you need to check it out. It is on Netflix this Friday. Woman of the Hour. You know Anna from lots and lots of things. I won't go into that. We'll just get to this episode as quickly as possible. So glad you guys are here. Brought to you by Modern Mammals. Go to modern mammals.com if you like hair that's clean but doesn't look like a bale of hay. And if you want to see me on the road, where am I going to be? I'm going to be in Denver. Yeah. This weekend. This weekend I'll be in Denver at the Comedy Works, followed by Largo on October 29th. That's going to be awesome. Raleigh, North Carolina, Indianapolis, Seattle, Portland, Eugene, Oregon. I believe that's sold out actually. Oh, and we added a second show at the Aladdin in Portland. So hope you can be there for the second show, Portland on December 20th. And then Phoenix, Arizona. All of those are available on peteholmes.com. all right, everybody, check it out. Get into it. Watch Woman of the Hour and enjoy this wonderful episode. I'm going to say get into it again. Get into it. Because I want to get. Who cares? But I do.

[A]

What? What do you want?

[B]

I want to get this on the air. I watched the movie. I deliberately watched Woman of the Hour last night.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And because I have a five year old, I also had to watch the end this morning.

[A]

Very sad.

[B]

Woke up at 6:30 to finish it.

[A]

What was your act break?

[B]

My act break? When I. When I had to turn it off?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Unfortunately. Only because it's like a climax and it's a great moment. It's in the police stat and she's saying, do your thing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I was like, I'm being pulled away by parenthood.

[A]

That's right near the end, though. You made it. You almost made it right to the end.

[B]

And I'll also say I. I started watching it with Val, and she had to tap out.

[A]

Oh, no, no, no, no.

[B]

Val. Softy.

[A]

No, no, no, no. That's, that's. I, I, I really.

[B]

There's two things I'd like to apologize for. One, that I watched it in two parts, and two, that I told you that my wife can't handle a quiet place. She can't handle any.

[A]

You know, that's so fine, I think, because I got to meet Val. When you came and did adr, there was part of me that was like, I hope Val likes it.

[B]

No, here's the good news. Are you ready? I hope this isn't a spoiler, and if it is, we'll edit it out. But the first thing I said to her this morning at, like, 7:30 was, Val, you can watch it. You've already seen the worst part.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, it definitely opens. It kind of. I decided to do kind of the. How dare I even make the comparison, first of all. Which is. I'm not comparing, but I wanted to do the no country for Old Men arc, of course, where it kind of, like, is the most violent thing happens up top. And even that isn't fully explicit. But then you kind of just can use your imagination for the rest of the film.

[B]

No. Steal from the best. I'm not saying you stole from the Coen brothers, but, like, the movie lives in the shadow of the trauma of the beginning.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because the beginning is like.

[A]

The beginning's really rough.

[B]

I'm not. Yeah, that's a. It's a sociopath if you're, like, fine just eating Milk Duds. Yeah.

[A]

But it's not.

[B]

It's not that kind of movie.

[A]

Yeah, it's not that kind of movie. It's graphic.

[B]

No, no, no. None of it would be edited from television. It's not a slasher movie. But it's. It's. Well, this is what I wanted to be rolling on is. I think it's so incredible. I think it's. I'm not just saying that, Pete.

[A]

That means a lot.

[B]

I was going to tell you. I was like, let's do it on the air because we'd love to promote the movie and promote you as a director.

[A]

And, I mean, did she. Wait, did she at least. Did she make it to your scene?

[B]

We watched my scenes. I hate to say that.

[A]

Yeah, no, of course.

[B]

I was like, I think. Well, I'm at the beginning. I'm at the End. So we watch those two scenes.

[A]

Wait, Val came in to see your last scene, too?

[B]

Yeah, I fast forwarded it so I had seen. But I had already seen that scene because. Was there ADR in that scene?

[A]

Yeah, I think so.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know why I thought I had already seen that scene. So, yes, I did the actor thing of like, well, if you're not. If you're going to leave, we're going to watch my two scenes. And we did say a lot about.

[A]

Your relationship, but it's like, oh, no, no, no. The movie's too scary for you, but you're going to sit here and watch these scenes of me.

[B]

She wanted to.

[A]

Of course. I'm teasing.

[B]

No, but I want to say we could. Look, I have one side about you and one side about the movie, and it's really dealer's choice.

[A]

Let's talk about the movie.

[B]

I want you to feel seen and like, oh, I did a really well.

[A]

Let's talk about the movie. Because I feel like I at least let you brace yourself for the fact that I'm gonna end up talking about you and this podcast at some point. And my experience, one of those.

[B]

I really want.

[A]

Yeah, I want.

[B]

I'm excited for that. What I want to say as a.

[A]

Fan of this, but, like, brace yourself. Cause it almost gets creepy in places.

[B]

Can't wait. There was a time that that would have meant more to me. Isn't it fun? I feel like this. We've been doing this podcast long enough that my character has had a little bit of an arc.

[A]

Well.

[B]

And I'm happy to say, as a fan of the show, that's exciting to me, but it's not like, my lifeblood.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not getting, like a huge dopamine hit.

[B]

Kind a little one, but kind of like your character in the movie. I really want to say a couple things up top. One, it's not just a good movie, which it is. And it's not just a good script, which it is. And it's very well directed. Thank you. Val just did her first short, and I'm very, like, in touch even more so with the agency that it directed us.

[A]

Yeah, well, I'll say. I'll say that, like, I think that's also why I was like, I hope Val likes the movie because she's going to watch it.

[B]

She's already mad. She's pretty mad that I told you that she didn't watch it. But the effectiveness of the horror at the beginning is really a Compliment to that. Keep going.

[A]

No, but that. Because you mentioned, you know, like, Val came into the booth with us.

[B]

That's right. I couldn't hear you guys.

[A]

No, you were in the booth. We were. Whatever. I don't know all the terms. That's not the point.

[B]

You were behind the. We were both behind the glass.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cause it's glass. Glass has two sides.

[A]

You mentioned that, you know, she was preparing to direct her first thing.

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

That was before. So I was actually sitting there feeling a little bit like, oh, I have to look like I really know what I'm doing. So that, you know.

[B]

You put on a beret.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Big cone.

[A]

Emotionally. I put on a beret. Yeah.

[B]

But on set, too. You were. I think Val was starting to. Well, she had written her script, and Val's blossoming as, you know, as a fan of the show, and it's so fun to watch. And then I did this movie with you, and it's your first directing thing. There was a parallel for me. If the movie was about me, they'd go like, oh, interesting.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

His wife is going in this direction, and then here he is, and you were. There was not an inch of. Who cares? I wasn't scanning you for nerves. I'm trying to compliment you that you seem so confident and assured and doing a great job.

[A]

Well, that means a lot, because I was trying really hard to seem confident and assured. Well, I don't know. I guess the truth is, I can't be sure at what. Yeah. When I was kind of performing confidence and when I really had confidence, I think that there were. The funny thing was that when I would watch the dailies back, like, with my editor, when we'd be kind of looking for some piece or something, I'd kind of see myself run into the frame and, like, give a note and adjust some piece of set deck. And I really did feel like, oh, that lady seems like she knows what she's doing. Like, oh, wow. And it was like, oh. I could tell that in that moment, I was just. There was too much to think about, that I couldn't help but be running on instinct.

[B]

Right. And in those moments, you got out of your own way.

[A]

Yes, completely. But when I would have moments, which I certainly did, of being like, oh, what if I'm messing this up? And you know that I then am kind of covering.

[B]

But you had to turn it on a little bit.

[A]

Yeah, but I tried. I know that I didn't always succeed, but I would try to. If I had those moments. It was usually probably because something went a little bit wrong, and then you'd have to adjust and, you know, try to seem like, well, this was the plan all the time. And that's really where you feel like, oh, I'm not being really honest. And I think that people can smell that. And then, like, maybe even the next day pull, you know, the necessary person aside and sort of say, I was. I felt embarrassed yesterday that those two first setups weren't working and we had to change the plan and go back and, you know, I feel like.

[B]

You mean you, like, repaired with them?

[A]

Is that what you mean? Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's cool. Cause I guess it was like. Well, I think where I would maybe have the people around me lose faith is if I didn't acknowledge.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, oh, something was going wrong, and I was trying to pretend it wasn't. But that's probably the worst thing I could do.

[B]

It reminds me of parenting. Val's always saying, is all the repair. I'll get in the car. I love that. Kids from the 90s, 80s, 90s growing up. This is not losing your shit. But me losing my shit with Lila is. I'll go, leela, this is not acceptable. Like, I'll say that, and then I'll.

[A]

Have to, like, can I say even the dad voice saying, like, this is not acceptable is like, it's freaky.

[B]

It's freaky. I know. I padded that because I'm still embarrassed that she'll push me past the edge.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

In a car, screaming about something, and it's just too much. And coffee does not help with parenting, by the way. Sometimes people are like, do you want another coffee? And I'm like, I'm a dad. What? Are you insane? Like, if you're jacked on caffeine, you're a worse parent for sure.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You drink when you don't have enough stimulation in K. Are just this external constant.

[A]

Oh, sure.

[B]

Imagine another brain that wants you to solve all of its problems and help with all of its stuff, and you're.

[A]

You're bringing their adrenaline into the ecosystem.

[B]

Your child is your coffee, even though it's also exhausting. So anyway, I go, that's unacceptable. And then I feel shame, like maybe you did about this setup example, whether or not that's real. But then Val always says to me, she goes, you could even say this about life. Life is the repair. It's not.

[A]

It's not repairing the mistake. I know that sounds kind of basic.

[B]

But, like, when you need to hear that, when you said to your daughter, this is unacceptable. And then. And Leela does this horrible thing. She cowers. Even though. I'm telling you, I'm saying it in what I think is a very flat, neutral tone. She'll still. She's so not used to me even correcting her that she'll cower like. Like, I'm a bear. And I'm like, that's okay. That happened. Now let's show her and yourself what we do with a moment.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Humanity. I don't even want to call it a mistake. Like, dadas get frustrated, too, and directors make mistakes. Did I do a good job tying those together?

[A]

No. Yeah. I mean, yeah, well, I suppose.

[B]

What do you got? Where'd you go?

[A]

Well, yeah, I know. You can see. I'm like, oh, there's a place that I'm like, oh. But I know enough to know that this would be the place to go there, I guess that, like, of course a child is gonna kind of see you as a God. And, like, it would be unacceptable that you have flaws. And then, like, as she's getting older, like, internalizing that, like, both the self and the other are flawed is the most valuable thing you could give her.

[B]

Right? Well, we. Well, I didn't mean to make this about us. I am going to elegantly and gracefully steer this back to the movie. Because, in fact, I could. I'll just jump. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna jump my own little insight and say it's interesting to be a female director on a movie that is so much about women stepping back to not embarrass or hurt men.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Pete. Pete.

[B]

Well done.

[A]

Okay. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that seems to be. I will say it's one of those movies that's like. You go like, oh, shit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

That's a real pitch to watch the movie. It really makes you go, oh, shit.

[B]

Well, I mean, I know exactly what you mean. It's deeply entertaining, but, like, it's also. It's saying something, and it's saying something really important. It's, like, the least AI generated movie of all time. I think it's very human. It's also incredibly subtle. That's why when I say it opens with, like, a shocking moment, that is the shadow in a Coen Brothers y sort of way that keeps you way more intense. It also reminded me a little bit of. Of Silence of the Lambs in a strange way. Like, there's the threat of something even more than, like, a slasher movie. You're just more like, we know what could happen. And it's really unsettling, but it's jumping through time. You're never bored, you're so engaged, but it is saying something. And the message as a. As a guy is that's when you're like, oh. Oh, fuck.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you're looking. And I'm going to put this to you, but we're looking at the 70s, which is really like sort of the. The petri dish that a lot of the toxicity of our current culture was sort of at its peak. I'm not saying it's not happening now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it was being grown in the lab then. And it really. And it's brought to a point on things like the Dating Game, which it's like a great, like, spotlight on a spotlight. It's like double intense. But like men and their relationship to women. Would you. So to reduce that to one thing, would you talk a little bit about women? The burden on women to not upset the King babies.

[A]

Yeah. I mean.

[B]

Which is what we're gonna call.

[A]

I'll say that. Yeah. I mean, I'll say that the. It's almost like the whole movie is kind of an exploration of the fawn response. You know, there's fight, flight, freeze, fawn.

[B]

I look to the camera because Val and I are fawners. That was our strategy to get through life.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Still is, unfortunately.

[A]

Yes. And I've heard, you know, again, this is where I feel a little creepy, but, like, I've heard the two of you have conversations about being able to get in touch with your anger and Val having a really hard time getting in touch with her anger, and that there's an onus on men to maybe control their anger, because generally speaking, they're socialized to be more in touch with their fight response. And obviously women are not. And so it gets so suppressed that some of the. In a conventional wisdom, mental health world, stuff about kind of strategies to avoid your own anger are kind of pushing us in the wrong direction in terms of getting toward health. And like, Valley, being more in touch with her anger is generally a good thing, in my opinion.

[B]

Of course it is. It's related to her creativity and it's related to direct directing as well. I'm not saying it's anger, but like a certain sort of decisiveness that's.

[A]

Yeah, no, I know what you're saying. Where I.

[B]

There's an aggression to saying, we're going. Again, not a bad aggression. Right.

[A]

Yeah, I know it is hard. Cause these words have so many meanings attached to them. Like, dominance, aggression, anger, and their. Yeah, very negative. So I'm struggling, too, to find the right word. Power.

[B]

I guess confidence is sort of, like. Can be used to master.

[A]

It's taking up space, let's say. And, you know, the fawn response is almost about shrinking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And my character really, like, kind of goes on a journey of, like, entering. Like, when we enter the actual Dating Game, it's almost like this fantasy world. Like, we were using a different lens set. Suddenly the production design is, like, almost too colorful, like, too intense. The cuts are getting faster. You know, everything's getting, like. It's almost like, cloying, like, when something's too sweet. Because we know she's in danger. We know that as she's choosing to rebel and step into her power, she's finally feeling good. But. But the viewer knows she's getting herself closer to danger. And that is almost the bargain. That is. The paradox is, like, sometimes women and marginalized people have to kind of shrink and fawn to survive. And it's not as simple as going, just be assertive. Just be assertive. It's not that simple because that's the danger zone. And the movie is sort of presenting that problem.

[B]

I also, for people who aren't familiar with it, there was a serial killer who was on the Dating Game.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And this movie, Woman of the Hour, is about the. The woman who went on the Dating Game, and I believe he really, in real life, was picked.

[A]

Yes. Yes. Yeah, she really picked him.

[B]

There's. Go ahead, please.

[A]

Yeah, no, she was interesting.

[B]

Now, let me ask another dumb question. Keep going.

[A]

No, no. Yeah, so she really picked him. And they. They really had some kind of interaction after the show where they didn't end up going on this kind of sanctioned prize date that the Dating Game gives, but they, you know, they have this interaction, and so that's sort of what the film is kind of leading to.

[B]

Yeah. So what. I don't know why I want to say this. Like, you're not the spokesperson of all. These are big issues. So I just want to let you off the hook and try to have just a natural conversation, because I'm asking you to speak to, like, male fragility and all of these things, and even the confidence requirement.

[A]

I mean, hey, let's go.

[B]

But know that we're chatting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Don't think sound bites. I do.

[A]

I will say it is hard because, again, like, I love that this show, and I love the kind of openness of the conversations. And I. I'm. I'm also aware of the way that often when I give interviews, it's like, oh, it won't just exist in this space. It'll get clipped and clickbaited and stuff. And so I'm trying to put that out of my mind because I think that the way that I speak about the film in other settings will probably be a little more sound bitey.

[B]

I guess I gotcha. Because when I was. I didn't have to do a ton of research because I'm a huge fan of yours, but I was doing some, and then I'm on YouTube and then you do see the shorts, and it's a very different hors d'.

[A]

Oeuvre.

[B]

You know what I mean? It really is like. And none of them were negative, but it's really like Anna Kendrick on this.

[A]

And it's like, yeah, if I'd known it was gonna be 10 seconds, I would have been a little more black and white about things.

[B]

It's not. It's very inhuman.

[A]

It's literally inhuman. Yeah. And even as I'm saying, oh, I would have been a little more black and white, I'm like, oh, what a bummer. And who wants that?

[B]

No, I know. I don't know. It doesn't matter. It's not my job to predict where we're headed. Here's my question. I was intrigued by the reality without a spoiler, if you want. No spoilers, Just turn this off.

[A]

Well, I also really want to talk about your performance and your character. And I don't think I can do that without.

[B]

Oh, yeah, without spoiling.

[A]

So there's some spoilers.

[B]

There's some spoilers, but I don't think this is the sort of movie you can spoil, because I was in it and I had read it and I watched it and I loved it. So with that in mind, listen freely. But I am intrigued by the idea that this woman, your character. What's your character's name? I'm sorry, Cheryl. Cheryl is a perfect 70s name. Cheryl. Cheryl and her dad, Dwight. And I can't think of Gertrude. Gertrude. Perfect. She's on the Dating Game and she's asking these three bachelors. We sort of have a dumb one, for lack of a better. Who was great.

[A]

Hilarious.

[B]

Really good.

[A]

Those two guys were incredible. The two bad guys.

[B]

Yeah. I'm carving all three of you.

[A]

Yeah. I think I had the entire acting community of Vancouver in this film.

[B]

Is that right?

[A]

It's like there's like 40 speaking roles and it's this tiny indie film. And like, yeah, the credits.

[B]

I watched all the credits. Because I wanted to see where I was. And I was like, oh, yeah, there's eight people in this movie. So it's like real fast. It was really cool. That's embarrassing that I wanted to see where I was, but it's fun. I was still at the place where it's fun to be in a movie.

[A]

I felt like, I wanna see it. I didn't know, like, if there, like, if there were people who were gonna get the. And. And the featuring and with. And, you know, like when I. When I watched the credits, I was like, oh, that's what got worked out in the. With the agents. Like, I wasn't paying attention to that.

[B]

And Tony, see, I'm assuming most people listening do know this, but things like and Robert De Niro and introducing. Whatever, those are all worked out in their context.

[A]

Yeah. And it's kind of a thing.

[B]

It's a thing. Now my ego insists that I say I sincerely do not care. But it was worked out. My agent said he's on a card with no more than two other names. Something like that. It was something. And they.

[A]

I love that for you.

[B]

No, no, no, not for me. You have to say, I love that for Doug Luckterhand. So anyway, I was intrigued that you're on the show and there's this weird. Like a lot of good cinema. There's this weird thing happening where the killer, who's bachelor number three, who we are legit terrified of. What a great performance. So much so that I'll be.

[A]

I cannot say enough about Daniel Zavato. Is the actor's name amazing?

[B]

I'll be uncomfortable. BLEEP that out. I'll be uncomfortable meeting him. We're in the process of getting a sitter for the premiere. I'm excited to meet him, but I'm also. I know I'll be a little uneasy because he's so incredible.

[A]

Yeah, so incredible. And he's so terrifying in the movie. And like, instantaneously you will feel at ease, I believe, because he is so warm and so generous.

[B]

As I said that I was like, no, you won't. You'll be fine. But the weird thing that's going on that I was interested in your take on is so surprisingly, but also inevitably, which is what we want. The bachelor, the third bachelor, the serial killer is the best at the game.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So the. The closer you get, Cheryl gets at avoiding the danger of dating. Let's just say a sex crazed narcissist or a dumb dumb who could hurt you.

[A]

Yeah. Those are the two other options on the episode, so.

[B]

And then here's a serial killer who's the most charming, most engaging. Talk about a true sociopath who knows how to do an impression of an. Of empathy and being involved and is intelligent.

[A]

Extremely.

[B]

He's intelligent.

[A]

Extremely intelligent.

[B]

But, like, one of those. Like, it's giving me the chills just talking about it, but one of those people that, like, it's almost like a joke. Like, yeah, I can read your plays and watch your movies and know your physics, but I'm just here to. I'm here for the murder.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, that's a true nightmare, obviously. But what did you make of the fact. What did that make? What did that stir up in you that this guy is winning the game?

[A]

Yeah, well, it's complicated. I mean, a couple people have said to me after watching the film that their experience of watching it is that they found themselves starting to root for the killer and then feeling horrible about the fact that they were rooting for him. And, like, living with that complicated feeling, which I think is. Is awesome, because that is very much like, almost. I don't know, in a way, like an antidote. An antidote to victim blaming.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where it's like, oh, even I, as the viewer who knows everything, am finding myself drawn in by this guy. Oh, what?

[B]

Don't let me talk too much. I just want to say we love people that are good at their jobs, even if their job is killing. Like, we're just. As a culture, we're taken with anybody who's successful. Look at Dahmer. Everyone watched Dahmer. Look at him go.

[A]

And that his. You know, that his job. I mean, I suppose I more saw his job as, like, drawing people in. It's like a spider, you know, it's like, yeah, the spider's good at catching flies, man. You don't blame the fucking fly.

[B]

Right, Right. And when he. Oh, that's. That's too much of a spoiler. But the moment that he has with Bachelor Number Two, I think, is fantastic. Unforgettable. Yeah, There's a lot of moments in this movie and were your choices without giving too much away, but Prospect Studios right over here. Also the tiki bar right over here. You shot a lot of. In this neighborhood, didn't you? Spoiler. Are these spoilers.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

I know these.

[A]

I love that you think that we didn't shoot all that stuff in Canada.

[B]

But you shot the exterior of Prospect Studios.

[A]

The exterior of Prospect Studios, which is right over here. What? What? Now I'm. Now I'm confused. The Tiki bar is not the tiki bar. The tiki bar. And the tiki bar exterior is Canada.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And the parking lot is Canada.

[B]

That I believe. But the exterior is Los Feliz, California.

[A]

Now I'm freaking out.

[B]

Look, I only feel a little bit dumb, but I'm okay owning it. I flew to Vancouver to be in this movie, and I still was like, wow, they shot.

[A]

Because we did shoot four days in la. So now I'm going, well, what moment are.

[B]

Well, Prospect Studios is right over here. And it's definitely where you're supposed to be. And then dum dum. Just the way that my mind works. There's also a tiki bar right over there. So I was like, it must be that tiki bar. This is just how the human brain works. It's broken.

[A]

Wait, are we. Are you saying that you think that Prospect Studio is the studio in the movie or something else?

[B]

You've the exterior of this.

[A]

We'll cut the exterior. I mean, surely some of this is great. No, it's not. This is a nightmare. Weird.

[B]

Isn't there an exterior that says Prospect Studios?

[A]

No.

[B]

I'm pretty sure there is. And that is the definition of man's studio.

[A]

I'm gonna drive there.

[B]

This is your movie, and I'm telling.

[A]

You, I feel like I have. Like, I need to go to a neurologist. If I. Like, I'm gonna go and drive past Prospect Studios, and I might be like, oh. Oh, my God, Anna, you idiot. Like that thing. But I don't. But I don't know.

[B]

I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna stop trying to convince you because you've seen it so many times.

[A]

A few. Sure.

[B]

A few times.

[A]

A couple times.

[B]

Hundreds of times.

[A]

Hundreds.

[B]

The only way I could be right is if you've experienced some sort of hypnosis that you've seen it so many times. But this is a snooze. Let's bring it back to what we were talking about. He's. Were we still on? He's the best of the game. And the disturbing quality of that.

[A]

Maybe.

[B]

Maybe Katie's on. I was gonna say Grindr, but isn't that the gay one?

[A]

Yeah. Good for Katie.

[B]

Katie's, you know, pushing the boundaries of what it can be.

[A]

She's a modern woman.

[B]

She's a modern woman. Sociopath. I don't think we've talked enough about, because we were driving around all the great performances and stuff. The idea that he's the best at it and the better you get at protecting yourself from these Guys, the more you're actually getting towards danger. But also, just as in general, your real life experience, how you related to Cheryl, perhaps. What? This is so silly, but I really do want you to talk about what it's like as a woman dealing with. I'll say for me, very fragile creatures. We're very, very fragile. We could have some compassion and say, oh, we've been told we're cowboys and we're not.

[A]

We can put a pin in compassion.

[B]

We can put a pin in compassion. Because that doesn't need to be implied.

[A]

No, but I want to expand on that thing. But I'll say that your character comes in pretty early in the movie. Like, we basically. We meet me at an audition where I'm dealing with, you know, some pretty overt misogyny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I kind of come home to my apartment and this, you know, puppy dog of a character is bounce, you know, bouncing around. And I'm just trying to, like, make it through my day. And I can't catch a break, which.

[B]

Is also taking up space.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Like, I'm really taking up a lot of space. And I'm mansplaining to an old lady.

[A]

That's how you start.

[B]

That's how we start. I've introduced Van Splanning.

[A]

Yeah, we. We hear Pete often screen before we even see him.

[B]

And then I poop a shell necklace.

[A]

I love that shot. The way that, like, I'm. You see me through the kind of blurred silhouette of you and this old lady. And you're just towering over this tiny old lady going, so here's the thing about Hollywood. She does not give a shit. She is desperate to leave. It's so awesome and it's so funny.

[B]

And the cut to the lady is a laugh. I think I've never seen it with an audience, but I think the cut to the lady is a laugh. And then I follow you liter taking.

[A]

Up your space because you, in a very kind of well meaning, sweet way, you are not really reading social cues. And it's like. It's so great as a bit of comic relief. And I wasn't really sure if the audience was gonna get on board for a laugh, like, so soon after the opening scene. But I'm so happy that it's.

[B]

They seem to need it.

[A]

That is what I kind of almost didn't anticipate is that not only would they be okay with it, they wanted it, needed it desperately.

[B]

See, I didn't even put it together, but my character coming into your apartment uninvited, following you. I think the whole movie. Like, there are all these microcosms of the whole movie. I think is what's happening is like, I need you. And look, I'm only talking about me. I'm not talking about all men. And I mean me. Pete Holmes, there is a baby that's like, please see me. Please pick me up. Please look at me. And I don't. This is a wounded part of me. I don't exist. If specifically a woman will look at me. Like, there's like, a. Very. Like, you.

[A]

You mean you. You. There's like a sense that you don't exist if she won't look at you.

[B]

If a woman won't validate me.

[A]

Yes, yes. Like the. The.

[B]

We still see it with cheerleaders. You know what I mean? We still see it in psychology. Like, male basketball players, they did a study, perform better. And by the way, any guy would tell you if there are beautiful women watching them.

[A]

I've heard that. I've never been asked this question, but I've heard that sometimes a director will ask his male star or actor, do you do a little better if there's cute extras, if there's cute background actresses around. And they will say, yes. And I was like, whoa, what? Nobody's asked me that. And I wouldn't, like, I would actually feel self conscious if there was, like, hotties around me. Yeah. I'd be like, get them out of here. This is a nightmare. But. Okay, okay, okay.

[B]

No, that was me just not knowing. I don't even know my truth in this regard, but I know. I can see it both ways.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I do know, like, any degree of showing off does kind of come back to, like, mating your clothes.

[A]

Oh, sorry. Let's not get it twisted. That is not me saying that I'm better. That's me saying, like, I need attention so goddamn much. Are you kidding me? I'm the lead of the film. Hi. I've been an actress for my whole life. Like, it's not because I hate attention.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, you know, I'm just saying in the specific instance, that's not right.

[B]

Works for me when you add traditional gender roles. Male, female, here. And I'm saying I'm admitting that. Val watching my scenes. Can I. It's bleeding into life. I told you that Val couldn't. Didn't feel, like, in the mood to watch something scary. So we just jumped to my scenes, we watched them, and she said, good job.

[A]

Of course there's gonna be a part of you going, mommy, did you like it?

[B]

Of course. Like, of Course, I just go, look, I've found a lot of success.

[A]

I told my therapist, owning your shoes yesterday. I told my therapist, if you see the movie and you don't like it, I'm probably gonna jump off a building.

[B]

I thought you were gonna say, don't tell me.

[A]

Oh, well, I mean.

[B]

But then if they don't tell you.

[A]

That, I could, you know, because I talk about, you know, the movie in the. You know, I've been the process of making sure, of course. So, like her. I don't know. I suppose there's a world where I might have said, just don't watch it, because I wouldn't be. And, like, I think there have actually been times where. Yeah, not in this same way, but there have probably been times where I've done something like that where it's like, oh, just don't. Just don't tell me, because I can't take it.

[B]

Well, speaking of my own mother, I called her once and I was like, all you can say is, great job. I literally was like, I'm limiting that. That's all you can say? Yeah, it's like a weird game show. You can only say greater job. You can say, job, great if you want to be weird about it, but you can only say those two words. But I. I. Val and I, part of the success of our relationship is an ownership. Not a surrendering. Not saying we can't improve, but an ownership of, like, I'm a look at me. And she. She's not just an icu, and I'm not just a look at me, but I'm predominantly a look at me. And she has very strong ICU qualities, and that works for us. I knew.

[A]

And of course, like, all you can do is be. Is arm yourself with that knowledge and be examining it, be conscious about it.

[B]

If we were unconsciously. If I'm moping resentment, that's not what we're doing. I've known comedians that, you know, had to end relationships because nobody wanted to ask them about their set. Val knows. Just say, like, how was your set? But I think she actually cares. That's like a really. She's so great. She'll actually say, how was your set? And I don't have to talk about it, but it's really nice that she just says, how was it?

[A]

It was good. And it's funny because, I don't know. I suppose it's literally all of this that made me. I mean, I'm sure I've told you all of this that made me start the process of Looking for Terry. That's your character's name. By telling the casting director, like a Pete Holmes type. Like a Pete. Like a. Yeah, like, I don't know, like a Pete Holmes type. And then it, you know, the kind of kismet story or whatever, is that it, you know, the. The actor that I found who was the most Pete Holmes type got Covid. And I said. And it was like four. I mean, I was freaking out.

[B]

It was really like four days before.

[A]

We were shooting these scenes. And I said, has anybody asked Pete Holmes? Like, I just. I didn't. I guess I didn't bother asking. Cause I just, you know, that's just scheduled, busy, whatever. And it almost seemed like. It almost seemed like, well, it's so last minute, that's almost the time we're most likely to get him going. Oh, yeah, my week's free.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'll just do it. Be great. It's like three scenes. They're important scenes, but. Yeah. Okay, great. And I, you know, was just over the fucking moon about it, obviously. But that.

[B]

Which I couldn't believe.

[A]

I was very kind of. I think, you know, even if people only know your work a little bit, I think they're getting golden retriever puppy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. And if they know you more, they know all of this kind of deeper inner work that you do. And so I. I so want. And this is like, spoilery, because I really want to talk about it, but I, you know, so sorry, guys, skip forward, but seconds that you are the last person that an audience would expect to do something really shitty.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the. I feel like. I mean, we're sort of talking about the larger themes of the movie. But I think that every scene. The I, for a long time was like, the question in every scene and the dissonance in every scene for my character is, do you see me as human?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it's almost like by the end, she gets her answer and it's not a good answer, but it's almost more satisfying. You at least know what to do with that. And it's this not knowing and feeling it but not being able to name it that's so impossible. It's such a trap. And. And like, your character, you know, kind of just wandering into her apartment in a really kind of harmless. But that way is like these just micro invasions. And, like, do you. Would you wander into your male neighbor's apartment in this way and, like, just start picking up all his stuff while he's on the phone and not, you know, picking up the cue of, like, Terry, I really fucking want you to leave.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then, like. And then you are being a sweet friend, and then there's this.

[B]

But also to what end? Yeah, when I watched the whole movie, I was like, oh, no, I'm foreshadowing the killer. Like, me and the killer are the same. And one of the things I wrote down, I didn't transfer it to my little note card here, but here it is. I was like, how our culture has blended sex and murder and violence. That. That seems to be coming through, whether or not that was intended. But when we say that's like a micro aggression, like, the going in and then the lying to get sex, like, pretending I care about your life to get sex, and then being, you know, a typical bad day.

[A]

I think there's. I think there might be something more complicated. Where it is like, well, he possesses empathy. Like, I don't think it's as simple as saying, oh, bad guys don't have empathy. Like, I think you might have empathy and you might be interested. And then there's a point where you're like, well, are we gonna fuck or not?

[B]

Right?

[A]

And it's like.

[B]

And his feelings are really hurt.

[A]

And the petulance that comes through. And, I mean, I remember when we were shooting that scene, like, I didn't really know how it was gonna go because I guess I just haven't seen you do something quite like that.

[B]

Neither had I. And when we watched it, that was like.

[A]

Well, I was like, oh, God, am I not thinking of something, like, really obvious that Pete's known for that? I. Great, great. But, like, that thing when you turn away from me and you go, do you want to leave?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, I feel like I gave myself chills just now. It's so icky, and it's like there's this petulance, sure. But I swear, like, I feel it in my body now. It's like underneath it is really rage.

[B]

And a threat and murder.

[A]

Yes, a threat. And maybe all that will mean for Cheryl.

[B]

Is that not literal murder, by the way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, in defense of Terry, that every.

[A]

Time she leaves her apartment and she might run into him in the hallway, that he's gonna make her feel like dog shit. And that's gonna be something she has to deal with in the place that she lives. And that's. Yeah, of course it's not murder, but, like, oh, God, I have to fuck this guy now, because otherwise he's gonna make my life miserable. And I feel like it's really. It's complicated. Cause I'm going, like, I feel like the reason I wanted you so badly is because there's such a limited window of screen time and I wanted it to come as such a left field thing. And now I've ruined it for your fans specifically.

[B]

But again, I was in it, thought it was shot in Los Angeles, read the script and loved the movie. So I think, I really, I think this is true of a lot of great movies. Can you spoil There Will Be Blood? I don't think so.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. I would say that.

[B]

Can you spoil no country? Is what you just said. Like, what?

[A]

Well, and like, sometimes I'll tell people about the movie and then the next day they'll go, oh, I went online and I was reading about the real story and I of course feel like, oh, just watch, just wait, just watch the movie. But I was like, like, no, actually, like you could read. And also there's so much to the story and this is a 90 minute movie. And also, like, the details are not the point. Like we're trying to tell a more emotionally resonant story.

[B]

It's a real. It's a real film. I. I don't know how to. That sounds like. I didn't think it was a real film. I'm trying to say it has nuance. It's. It's the medium is the message. It's the way the story is unfolding and the pacing. And it's very. It's. It's really, really well done.

[A]

Done.

[B]

I was gonna say what you're. What you're bringing up for me is one of the more sophisticated things about our culture, I think, is that we've acknowledged that stalking is a crime.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So what I'm saying is, like, there's, there's murder and every human culture has been like, don't do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's been ritual killing and stuff. I. We can acknowledge that. But I'm just saying, like, most people are like, that's not chill. But then like, there's something. I was watching a little bit of baby reindeer. I only say that. I don't know. Who cares? Why? It doesn't matter. I just think it's really cool. Cool that we as a people.

[A]

It's like the 10 that we're acknowledging.

[B]

That we acknowledge that even though nothing is happening.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's like the Ten Commandments. The one that was innovative was don't covet your neighbor's wife. Because that happens interiorly.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So the fact that, like, as a law.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was sophisticated, that it was Considering that it's wrong to do something privately anyway. Similarly stalking. Nothing's happening. It's two kids in the backseat going, I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you. I'm not anyone that's been followed, which. That was the shot I was gonna compliment you on. There's a lot of really brilliant shots when she's looking up at the sky. Your cinematographer was great. But you. I know you're also calling those shots when you're walking right here in Los Angeles in the studio, and it tracks with you. And then you see.

[A]

And you're like.

[B]

It's very.

[A]

Cause it's. It. I mean, very cool. Hopefully. The objective at all times is to. How do I create that internal experience of.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I. I feel like he's there.

[B]

Yeah. You're being stuck.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What is more compelling. And I don't say that I'm excited in being jovial, but it's. It's real. If you're walking down your hallway in your apartment building, as we all have sometimes you. When I was younger, I'd pretend someone was following me. You're getting the keys just to kind of, like, be thrilled. Yeah. Just kind of an imagination thing. And then I remember my friend Josh Cheney had a joke about that. He was like, my neighborhood's so bad. You know that game? You pretend there's a killer following you and you have to get your keys. He's like, we do that for real or something. Something like that. But I was like, oh, I've done that. But there's nothing meaning horror. And I guess this would be a thriller. It's not a horror movie. But thrills, chills can come from something as basic as the feeling that someone's following you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because when I saw the. The setup of the movie. There's a compliment here. My prediction was, unfortunately, this guy would strangle people, bring, resuscitate them, and then kill them again, which is insane. So I'm watching it, and I'm like, oh, I see what's happening. This woman notices he's on the show, Anna. And I'm already dreading it as I'm predicting it. Anna's gonna get killed. He's gonna bring her back, and then the cops are gonna come in, and then. But the question for me. And by the way, that is not my pitch. That's a.

[A]

Well, yeah.

[B]

I hate that movie.

[A]

And not what happens at all.

[B]

Not what happens at all. That is a slasher movie. You made a psychological thriller. I was curious if you got the note, to make it more. Because horror is so huge. Was anyone like, could it be more fucked up? You see one murder in it. Oh, it's hard to. You don't want to throw someone under the bus.

[A]

No, no, no, no. That's not. That's not why I'm hemming and hawing. I'm hemming and hawing of, like. What can I say without. I will. Yeah. I'll say that I think that I was. There aren't, like, really super overt examples, but I was definitely, like, letting the financiers think I was making more of a horror movie. And, you know, kind of the crew, I think, you know, thought we were making a thriller. And I think, like, deep down, I was like, I'm making a drama. Like, I'm really making something about grief. And it's not a. I mean, you've seen the movie. I don't know that that's how you would describe. Describe it. But I. But I hope that it's.

[B]

I would say a psychological thriller. Psychological thriller is a way of saying a dramatic thriller.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean. I guess. I mean, genres, you know, what are we. What are we doing? I don't know, but.

[B]

Used to just be aisles at the blockbuster. Am I right? No, it's a whole thing. You have to sell a genre.

[A]

I mean, like, I definitely remember there were times where, like, this kind of special effects meeting would be like, so how many, like, blood splatters, you know, kits do we need? Or whatever? And I was like, zero.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. Yeah, so that was always a little bit surprising to people, I guess. But I.

[B]

And a huge relief for me and for Val. Who's gonna love it?

[A]

Great.

[B]

Who's gonna love it? But it's very sophisticated. It's a very sophisticated and elegantly told story.

[A]

Well, I'll say that. I think, you know, people obviously don't think of, like, scary thriller when they think of me, like, you know, I'm mostly known for, like, a musical comedy franchise. That's the thing I'm most known for.

[B]

I know you don't mean trolls, but in our house.

[A]

Oh, sure. Well, that's good.

[B]

Let's get back up again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Leela loves it.

[A]

Oh, I love it.

[B]

And it's really a difficult song to sing, I'll have you know.

[A]

Yeah, it is. It is.

[B]

Oh, I assumed it was easy for you. It's not. Oh, I sing it, but it's not easy. There's a lot of range. There's a lot of music, acting, singing.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which I. Yeah. With which I enjoy.

[B]

No, that's your thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're very good at it. But there's a lot of emoting and there's a lot of. If you don't know, get back up again.

[A]

It's a lot.

[B]

It's a great song though.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Sometimes I am having a bad day and I'll. I'll throw it on. I don't think.

[A]

I don't believe you at all.

[B]

That's completely true.

[A]

There's no way you're not so sick of that from your. Watching it with your daughter.

[B]

Love it. There's a couple kids songs I love. One is Sprinkle Party. You won't know it.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

And one is Get Back Up.

[A]

Well, I'm gonna check out Sprinkle Party in the car on the way home.

[B]

It slaps.

[A]

Well, the other thing that I got was there were some producers who like really wanted me to open the movie in a nightclub. There was this really big push and the pitch was kind of like. Well, it establishes time and place and you know. Cause I wanted to. And I did open the movie kind of on. On like a isolated hilltop, you know, with just two people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And you know, you might not immediately clock that it's the seventies or. And. But I don't know, there was just something about like. I was like, I know why you guys are pitching this. And I hate it. And I hate it.

[B]

And I know. Is it a low tracking shot where we see bell bottoms and platform shoes and a light up floor?

[A]

I was like, I know what your picture is. Boogie Nights. And I. And.

[B]

But I knew it.

[A]

But like, but like dark Boogie night. Like, ooh, scary boogie nights. And I was like, I. I hate.

[B]

And we pan up and you're sitting alone.

[A]

I hate it. So. Oh yeah. His horrible prey.

[B]

Like, I. Yeah, I hate it.

[A]

I want to scream. Absolutely not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And like. And I. And I said. Which again, I guess speaks to the way that in some ways I was like, I don't know what I'm doing and I have imposter syndrome. And then in other ways I would be like, geez, who's this confident motherfucker? Where like I remember this meeting going. I gotta be honest, if it's that important to you guys, like, I don't know how to make that movie. That's a different movie. And I don't know how to make that. Which I was like, that's insane. That is like. That is a crazy thing as a first time Director to just be saying to someone's face, that's a lip on your cheek. I'm proud of myself.

[B]

Your astrological chart gets a mark. I'm not a big astrology person, but that's like a turning point in your life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When you realized everyone in that room to a greater or lesser extent was just pretending to know what they're talking about.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you're like, I can pretend to know what I'm talking about.

[A]

Completely. Completely.

[B]

I don't mean that. To put down what you said, but you were like, wait a minute, we're talking Matt Johnson, the director. I'm obsessed with the Canadian filmmaker. He's like, it's like trying to remember a dream. Like making movies trying to remember a dream. And they're like this dream starts like this. And you're just like, no it doesn't. And I know we're talking about a dream, but it doesn't start that way. You guys know I am obsessed with ways to strengthen my immunity and my gut health as well as fitness, endurance, metabolism, hair and skin radiance. And I recently discovered one product that covers all of those things and it couldn't be easier. Talking about armor Colostrum. What is colostrum? Colostrum is the first nutrition we receive in life and it contains all of the essential nutrients our bodies need to thrive. Talking reactivating hair growth, growth and glowing skin by reducing inflammation and puffiness in your face and neck as well as stimulating stem cells to produce collagen and increase elasticity so you look good. Talking about metabolism, fortifying gut health so you feel less bloated. This is a huge one for me. If I forget to take my arm room, I notice it immediately because I feel bloated in my belly. It makes you feel lighter while replenishing your microbiome, stabilizing blood sugar and accelerating fat burning as well as fueling your fitness performance and your recovery. Armor Colostrum is a proprietary concentrate of bovine colostrum that harnesses over 400 living bioactive nutrients that rebuild the bearers barriers of your body and fuel cellular health for a host of research backed health benefits. It's natural, sustainable and was developed with the highest integrity grass fed in the U. S And they guarantee the highest potency and bioavailability of any colostrum on the market. It for results that you can actually see and feel. Both Val and I have added this to our daily routine four times a day. I take it so does Val. The difference is noticeable and there is no going back it's wonderful for your immune system, for your bloat, for your gut, for your skin, for your hair. Get it into your life. We worked out it's just a little powder, by the way. You just add it to your water or your smoothie or sometimes I just dump it straight into my mouth. Health We've worked out a special offer for weirdos. Receive 15 off your first order. Go to tryarmora.com weird or enter weird at checkout to get 15 off your first order. That's T-R-Y-A R M R A.com weird we're also brought to us by our friends at Brain fm. Brain FM has been part of my daily creative routine for years now. I'm so happy to be partnering with them. Every morning I sit down right here in my office at this computer, throw on these headphones, hit Brain FM on my phone, hit Creative Flow Lo fi and boom. It plays scientifically curated music with these waves in it that dial in your brain for focus on the surface. It seems just like an app that gives you the perfect background music for creative work, study, relaxation, reading, meditation, sleep. And that's true. But their composers work hard to create amazing sounding music that doesn't distract and uses patented audio technology to boost your mental states on demand. That means Brain FM scientists and components composers, excuse me, add patterns to their music that change the patterns in your brain, creating increased blood flow and electrical activity in the brain and increasing focus in as little as five minutes. I can't just do regular music anymore. There's no comparison. Brain Activity FM is so much better. Regular music is designed to be distracting. It's trying, it's vying for your attention. It pulls you out of the flow so you're constantly being interrupted, having to skip songs and find the right music. Not with Brain fm. Every song is perfect. Stop the skipping. They have a variety of sounds and genres, from natural soundscapes to lo fi electronic, which is what I like that get you in the zone almost immediately without having to pick the perfect, perfect playlist. And it's science backed. Brain FM actually has scientific research to back up their claims through close collaboration with neuroscientists and a wide array of field experiments and testing. But even better, their music is made by human beings. So go to Brain FM weird to get 30 off one year of Brain FM and start getting more done with less effort and unlock your best self on demand. Experience the difference that the right music can make in your life. Brain FM Weird well again, I'm so.

[A]

Glad I'M on this because I probably won't really have the opportunity to talk about this anywhere but here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I. Well, you'll see that, you know, So a friend of mine was like, well, why this movie? You know, like, this isn't what I expected you to make as your directorial debut. And especially he was referencing. Because I sent him the script because I was like asking for some advice. He's a filmmaker. And I was like. He was like, especially like that opening scene, which was a little different at the time, but, you know, it was similar to what the opening scene is now. Like, that's, that's intense. Like, why this? And I had to think about it and I was like, you know, I. I had a few years prior to that, a couple years prior to that, that. What's the short version? I basically realized I was in an abusive relationship and. And that kind of started me on. I mean, it's. It's actually sort of. Not sort of. It's when I discovered this podcast because I was sort of really searching for something. I don't know.

[B]

But I've heard you talk about this time in your life and I've been in that place where your apartment is full of self help books and like.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You feel like you're losing your mind.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Sorry to. I'm not trying to scoop your story. I just want you to know I've heard you talk about feeling gaslit. And when you. I don't know what your situation was, but mine was you start feeling like isolated. Like, even the people that are helpful.

[A]

And it didn't help that this also ended up coinciding with COVID So now I'm trapped in a house with someone.

[B]

Oh no. And oh my God.

[A]

And there is no honesty. And when I say honesty, I don't even just literally mean specific things. It's like, oh, I'm living with someone who. Our couples therapist, later, after that relationship dissolved, told me he is constitutionally incapable of looking at himself. And when you are. But when you're with someone who is just like everything is. Is through the lens of the worst faith possible. So I have. So then I'm not. So then I'm no longer having the space to be honest about me. Every. And that comes through in every gesture, in every footstep, because they're looking at.

[B]

It in the worst light possible.

[A]

Yeah. Like where I'm like, I'm performing something that won't kind of get me abused. Right. And I. And I started listening to Dax Shepard's podcast because he had Esther Perel, the kind of relationship expert on. And then I found he was so kind of, like, shockingly honest that I was like, oh, great. And then I listened to his episode with Tony Hale and loved Tony. So I've known Tony a little while, but I was like, oh, what other places has Tony done? Podcasts. And I found your episode with Tony.

[B]

No way.

[A]

And I think I told you this thing on set that it's. In that episode, you say something about being up late with the baby. Like, I think she was really a baby at the time and that it was a really hard night and Val was out for the evening and that you almost were hoping that when Val came in, she would catch me. She would catch you with the screaming baby. And in this podcast, you're being so honest about, like, what am I doing? And what is that hope about? And like, oh, I, like, want her to know that I'm. I'm really put upon and so you have to love me. And I was just like, oh, my God, I feel emotional now. Like, I feel like I could cry now. Like that. Just finding, like, I was so desperate for someone to be honest about their dark side, their ugliness, their flaws, because that was suddenly not allowed in my. Not for him, not for me, not. Like, I couldn't say, maybe you're experiencing. Could we get a little wiggle room on that? Or no. All rigidity. All rigidity. Okay. And it makes you more rigid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was just like, this is a fucking nightmare.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That walking on eggshells thing, of course. And okay, I'm gonna bring all this back to.

[B]

I love everything you're saying. You just made me realize that this podcast started right after I got out the. Of a relationship that was very toxic for both of us. I say that to be nice. It was really hard on me. I don't know how it was for her, but it was really, really performative and gaslighting and quarantine me away from. And I felt like I was insane. And then this podcast started pretty much right after that, and it was almost like, in response to not being able. So the bow of the arrow is being pulled back. And then it was like, I can't wait to.

[A]

Yeah. And going, can I have all this, or am I gonna get in trouble? And, like, having that, you know, I was like, on hikes, because that was. The escape was. I'm gonna go on a while.

[B]

You were still in the relationship.

[A]

Yeah. Listening to your voice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Saying something honest about yourself was like, oh, my God, I can Fucking breathe. Yeah, I can fucking breathe.

[B]

I'm so glad I, I know that feeling. The, the bad relationship. And I, I'm not doing a bit because it's too serious to, to, to kid about, but like the bad relationship refuges for me, it was like a shower. Like, like you just have to go take like a 30 minute shower cuz it's your only place. It's like misery, you know, Like, I'm always drawn to like prison movies and, and like entrapment movies because like, they're powerful metaphors for ways I felt. It also brought this up. I remember there was a time when I was talking to my dad, like I talked to my daughter. And it was such a indication of how we've evolved or changed at least in dealing with emotions. My dad was upset and I said to him what I would say to my daughter. I go, dad, you're upset. I hear that. And that's okay. He goes, it's not okay.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Because in his defense, what he of course thought I meant was, that's okay that you're upset. Like, I'm. It's not up to me to fix it. Which of course you and I both know that's the modern way. Like, I, I'm not, I, I'm acknowledging that you're upset and I see that and I, I'd like to, you know, do what I can, but he's like, fix it.

[A]

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

[B]

Like, it's not okay that I feel bad. Like what we do in modern feeling, as we'll call it, is. I'm upset and that's okay. Like I'm, I feel like I'm going crazy. Yes, that's all right. I'm gonna allow that and then loosen my grip on it and then start to work with it. But he's like, we're gonna start from a place of this will not stand.

[A]

Well, this is, I mean, and this is where like obviously not your dad, or maybe you're. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, it's okay. What we say is, we can take my dad out of this and keep talking that like.

[A]

But that unwillingness is like the place from which all violence stems.

[B]

That's exactly right.

[A]

Is like, I will not have this.

[B]

And you must change it. That's right.

[A]

And I will project it onto you and I will fucking destroy you.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And so like, I really meant that somehow this was all gonna circle back to the movie, that the opening scene is two people on a hilltop. And I see it as that duality of Intimacy it is. Or there's that. God, there's that wonderful line about the rewards of being loved and the mortifying. The mortifying ordeal of being known. And now you can't get one without the other. Wow. And these two people on a hilltop, and it's this beautiful, verdant, gorgeous. You know, the light is beautiful, the grass is beautiful. Even the sound design, like, it's. It's birds and it's lovely, and then something shifts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because this person will not hold any of his own pain, so he will enact that on the external world and on you. And what is intimacy? What is abuse? What is any of it, if not fucking. Not to be lame, but, like, if not two people on a hilltop with no one around and nothing to save you, and you're risking annihilation.

[B]

Right? Yeah, that's right.

[A]

And. And that hilltop that is so beautiful is suddenly. I mean, even if you were alone, like, a beautiful mountaintop could be the most beautiful place in the world. And if you suddenly realize you're lost, that place is terrifying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now the sound design is like, oh, I hear a coyote. And these colors feel dirty. And I am so far away from civilization, and I am with someone very, very dangerous.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And, like, you in intimacy are risking annihilation, you know, to be known. Yes.

[B]

You're not risking it for no reason. You're. It's like, obviously, it's like a gamble. You're like, maybe they'll know me and maybe they'll love me. And that's. That's those. When you're rejected, like, when you're not picked as a bachelor, you were trying to be known and you were rejected. But maybe even worse, someone does accept you, and then they see you. And isn't that everybody's fear? Like, they'll see who I really am and they won't want me.

[A]

It's 100% my fear. Like, I'm kind of a dyed in the wool avoidant style. And that all stems from. If you really saw me, you would reject me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you really saw me, you wouldn't love me.

[B]

Oh. I said in therapy, just this last week, I said, it's parts work. So I'm talking to one of my.

[A]

I do parts work.

[B]

Nice. Let's talk to one of your protectors. Anna. It's like inside the Actors Studio, but really inside the actors.

[A]

Yes, I know. It makes me feel.

[B]

Can I talk to one of your protectors?

[A]

It's so lame, but I love it.

[B]

I love it, too. And I'm shocked That I'm able to do it without getting tripped up by how kind of corny it is.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

But one of my protectors is like a American Psycho style 80s stockbroker with suspenders in a penthouse. And he's alone and he shows me profit and loss reports for having human relationships. And he goes, it's the stupidest investment you can make. And I'm entangled with him. Meaning I have to.

[A]

You merge with him.

[B]

I'm still. I. I still can feel that I merged with him.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And his voice comes out in ways like, why go to lunch with a friend? Because inevitably you're going to get busy and they're going to want to hang out again and you won't be able to hang out. So. So you want to have lunch with something that you can disappoint.

[A]

Yes, to me. I'll just let you down.

[B]

He laughs in my face. He goes, that's what you want to do?

[A]

Wow. Really?

[B]

Or just show them who you are now. And by the way, wow.

[A]

Yes. This is wow.

[B]

What we do in therapy. No, no, sorry, you're the guest. Please.

[A]

I'm just. I just keep going wow. That's why I think I'm like, oh, sorry. Shut up.

[B]

Well, you'll probably know from doing parts. Well, I don't know what. I don't. I haven't really talked to anybody other than Belle that's done parts work. It's a type of therapy. But like I show him photographs of. It's emotional but like of. Of me being loving. Like of real relationship without agenda. I wasn't gaming anything.

[A]

And how does he feel about that?

[B]

He loves it. He's not ready to leave the penthouse. But the, the horrible. Not horrible. It's not horrible. I know he's listening. He goes, people are the mirror that show us how ugly we are. That's what he said. He's like, is that. Is that what you want to do? Well, you want to go see how selfish you are. Self centered you are. You know how haunting it is when I tell Val's story and she goes, I was there.

[A]

Sometimes I worry it's a little heavy handed, but like there's mirror stuff in. No, I love it.

[B]

No, that's actually when I said this is the least AI movie. When we. We're not going to talk about AI. Who cares? But I'm just saying when you're loading the mirror in the truck and the way that you shift it and we see a little bit of your face and stuff. I love symbolism. I Think it's. You probably heard me say this, but Carl Jung talked about that's what transforms us. So I think it's dumb that I was always trying to do more symbols in the things I've made. Anyway, when I saw that moment, I go, yeah, the way a mirror looks in a box and the way we see a little glimpse of ourselves is something that a. An AI won't. I don't know. But right now, can't understand. And it's very human and real. I was like, oh, my God. We watch movies to see little moments like that. So I love the symbols, and I was honored that I got to be a mirror person twice.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got a couple mirrors.

[B]

I picked up on all of them, and there's the killer reflection.

[A]

I guess that's sort of what I'm. You know what. What I was thinking of when you said that. That, you know, the mirror shows us how ugly we are. Like, he is unwilling.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And this is someone who's constitutionally incapable of looking at themselves. Whereas this unwillingness to look at himself, that, you know, again, I don't know his. The real person's psychology. Fuck him. He's rotting somewhere. I couldn't give less of a shit.

[B]

We're not here to.

[A]

Yeah, it's more like, what is the emotion? What is the emotionally resonant story? We can tell with. With these facts. Facts. But. But this is the part that I really don't want to, like, spoil, but basically, someone manages to be a mirror for him and convince him that she does not see anything wrong, anything bad, and. And, like, this is how she survives.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because this is a person who cannot tolerate the mirror.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, just.

[B]

That's hard to. That's. You're right. We'll leave that. I could talk to you about that specific thing and how it's true and for, like, nine years, because it's amazing. And you're. I was just so impressed that a person. Whenever someone's in that amount of distress and thinks of a good strategy to save themselves, you're like, wow, that's. No actor deserves an Oscar. Those people that are doing things like that to save their lives. Unbelievable. Okay, so one thing that came to mind that I'd love to work into what we're saying. There's a great line in the movie where it's like, did you feel seen? And you said, I felt looked at.

[A]

Can I tell you a secret? I wrote that line, like, the night before we shot that scene.

[B]

No way.

[A]

And I was terrified because that scene. I really like the line. I really like. I hope the writer likes it, you know, but there was, like, something about the scene that wasn't working. And I kind of last minute had to tweak some things. And then there was this idea that I kept circling. Like, I knew that I. This kind of idea of, like, the duality of intimacy, the danger and the joy, you know, the annihilation and the ecstasy of. Of intimacy were. Were things that felt thematically important to me. But as we were in pre production, like, I knew. I thought that being seen was more of, like, a minor theme. And it just kept, like, showing up in a way where I finally had to go, okay, fine, fine.

[B]

That was the dream.

[A]

I got it. And so there was, like, that language I kept circling, and I didn't really break it until literally the night before. It seems obvious once you do, but, you know. But getting there was hard. But there used to be a thing in that scene where, like, the waitress knocked over a glass and, you know, the guy gets aggressive with her. And that's really where it's like, oh, this is dangerous. And I was like, I wonder if we can pull off something way simpler and more subtle. And, like, on paper, I'm so happy with that scene. Danny is so scary, scary in that scene. I hurt his feelings in this way that on paper is so minor that I was like, I don't know if the scene's gonna work. And I'm so happy with this scene.

[B]

The way you directed it and it's the way you played it. Cause I noticed I actually had this entire thought. I was like, if I read that, I would never have been like. And here's a moment where he looks down and Anna.

[A]

And the whole scene shifts.

[B]

Yeah, you don't do anything. You don't, like, jump the line or something, but there's. Do you push in close or something?

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

It feels like you did. Because the whole thing is different after that.

[A]

It's completely. And I think that there's. There's a couple things where later, like, it goes on for a little while, and then we're shooting on, like, wider lenses, but it's not really in that moment. But I will say that I asked the sound team.

[B]

Oh, it's dead silent. It's written down.

[A]

Anna, here's the crazy thing.

[B]

Silence bar. I loved it.

[A]

But the crazy thing is that so many people have said, I love that moment when all the sound goes out, and I love that they experience it. That Way. Yeah, I have. I slowly turn down that sound.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, very gradually and way before the turn. And then once the turn happens, it's when you become aware that, oh, the music's gone, the chatter's gone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like the kind of boisterous trio that was over there has left.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, oh, this is so dangerous. And it's. And like. Like, it's all kind of. Again, like. Like the shot where he's following me. It's all meant to kind of give you the sense of the internal experience of, like.

[B]

Well, you did it.

[A]

The terror.

[B]

No, you really, really did it. Can I. Can I ask you a very. Were you.

[A]

No.

[B]

Where are you?

[A]

No, No, I wasn't anywhere. No, you looked like you were gonna go somewhere juicy, and I was like.

[B]

Oh, it's not that juicy.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because whatever. Because it's polite to not delve too deep. So. That's not my intention. I'm curious. I think, about that relationship that I was in and how my reality was a different reality. You talk about a lens. You know what I'm saying? It's like a spell. It'll make you believe in witchcraft. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Cheat.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Keep going.

[B]

I was gonna say, on a practical level, I know people are listening, and can you tell me, without details that would betray or make you feel uncomfortable, how you managed to get out of it? Because it's not just a breakup. It's a reclamation. Reclamation. Reclamation of your identity of a reality. It's like showing my protector photos of me being kind. You have to snap somebody out of it. Bit. So could you talk about that?

[A]

Unfortunately, I would say I'm still working on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I cannot be the girl that cries on podcasts.

[B]

No, you certainly can't. And if you do, you. We can take it out, but we'll talk about what. What that brought up in you without betraying anything.

[A]

I'm just gonna. I. I still. I have. I. I think the simplest explanation is, like, it's this. This. This is an oversimplification. But, like, I have good days and bad days. You know, I. I mainly experience them more as kind of good months and bad months where every week I go into therapy and I'm begging her to tell me that I have an egosyntonic disorder that is so pathological that she couldn't broach it with me until, like, five years into therapy because it's that deep and bad. And I'm begging her to just tell me that I'm. That I was the pro that I was the wolf that I. I am legend. No, no, no. Like that. Like, because at one point she had said to me, this was years ago, you know, she'd said something like, well, you know, when you're dealing with a wolf and she. Sheep's clothing. And I went, no, no, no. What if I'm the wolf?

[B]

That's how you interpreted it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's your core negative belief.

[A]

It was not a negative belief I had before, but, yes, that is. And I think that that is really the magic trick of a lot of abuse is that their internal experience is so distressed and so convinced of their own victimhood that they're not acting. They believe it. So how the fuck do you know which one of you is which? I mean, it's like Blade Runner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, what do you mean? I wouldn't know if I was a Replicant.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

[A]

So, yeah, the wondering, well, is reality my reality or was it his the whole time? Like, am I. Am I the. The Alchemist or the. Or the. The warlock or what? I don't know.

[B]

But don't you see. And I'm not trying to just say something kind to you, but don't you see how lovely it is that that's a consideration that you're making?

[A]

I suppose. Like, it's hard.

[B]

It's hard making. Look, because you're being so. As I'm honest all the time on the show. But, like, I'll say to Val, if I'm a narcissist, you'll tell me, right? And she always says, pete, if you were a narcissist, you wouldn't say that.

[A]

I. Well, again, here's the rub.

[B]

Or would I?

[A]

I don't know that that's true.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I think that that's kind of. I think that that's kind of true of actual. I'm talking. I'm punching above my weight here. But I think that might be true of actual psychopaths, that a psychopath wouldn't worry that they're a psychopath. So. But narcissism is a different thing. Border. You know, there's. And narcissism, NPD is not the only thing in the game. You know, there are other disorders. And, like, every time I see something on Instagram that's like, here's how you can tell. It's. If you're a narcissist or he's a narcissist or she's a narcissist, I go, I really wish that one of these things was like a tried and True test. And the tragedy of humans is that we can take any tool and turn it into a weapon. So, like, anything that feels like it kind of goes, yeah, that must be it. I go, or maybe I'm just telling myself that. And I. This is hard because I don't really. I don't know what to do. I don't know what. I don't know that. Just. The question itself is, yeah, I understand. Perfect evidence.

[B]

But will you accept? Will we accept? Because we're having the same issue. I don't know why. I want to tell you that I took mdma, which they do in therapy, and I had this really like, oh, my God, Pete wants to be better. And that was deeply emotional for me. Not that Pete is perfect, but I.

[A]

Was like, look at Pete trying of all beautiful.

[B]

But that's you as well. You're in therapy, you're asking these questions, and we don't know. So my next question for both of us is like, in your parts work in your therapy, do you have any relationship to your higher self, your highest self?

[A]

So the part that I don't, well. Oh, God, it's so embarrassing to talk about parts work. It's like, it really is the corniest of all the modalities, I feel.

[B]

I agree. But when you bring in highest self, you're bringing in 3,000 years of mystical tradition. So we're talking about your.

[A]

I think you might be a little more comfortable with that stuff than I am. I think I have a little more built in resistance to it still, while being totally open to it. But. But yeah, I think there's. I have a bigger part of me that wants to go, oh, missed. Oh, 3,000 years of myth.

[B]

Wait a minute. That's in the movie where somebody says, it's your soul, and you're like, oh.

[A]

Yeah, isn't that how it is?

[B]

That's so true.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

And I'm asking you about your soul, but I'm also just asking you about your consciousness, meaning the neutral field wherein all of it happens.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So we can even just talk about it scientifically and say there is an awareness that was the same when you were two or when you were looking for parking. The same thing that was aware of your car and the house and is the same awareness that's perceiving this. So there is a neutral holding space that's none of these things, but does exist. And I get relief from myself when I go, like is when I say. Even I say, is Pete. Does Pete have narcissistic tendencies? I can experience the relief of stepping back from that and going like. Like this observing field has no gender, has no age, has no weight, has no psychology to be disrupted or not disrupted. If the answer is no, that's fine. But I wondered if you ever can sink back into the.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I remember the analyst, Anna.

[A]

I remember finding out my friend Kelly, who's the actress in that first scene in the movie.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

I remember she had texted me and said, I have news. Too much to text. Right. And I don't know how, but I knew she was moving away. And I was like, it was. Again, this is sort of tail end of COVID times, maybe. And, like, I don't know about you, but, like, a bunch of people moved away, and I had just gotten out of this relationship and I just felt like I was. Like I was just experiencing so much loss. And, you know, Kelly's one of my closest friends, and she's the most incredible person. And I was in the shower and I did kind of go to that place of. I started to see my thoughts like a ticker tape. And I was going, oh, Anna's so anxious. And Anna really wants this to not be happening because she's so sad and she's grieving and she's avoiding grieving. Oh, look, there she is trying to tell herself, no, no, no, that's not what she meant. That's. No, she's. And I can convince her to stay. And, you know, and all of that is just Anna trying so hard to avoid grief because it's gonna hurt a lot.

[B]

Yeah. So you did have, like a witness thing.

[A]

Yeah. So I can. Yes, sometimes.

[B]

Well, we did it when you were parking. The guy behind you on the street had parked too forward, so there was, like a good three feet behind you. So he was making your spot a little too small. And, you know, if you got a ticket, we'll happily pay it, obviously. But you're a little bit in a driveway. And I said to you, I was joking. I was like, and we're not going to take that personally.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I do go. Like, this person isn't considerate enough to park so that someone else can park in front of them. I'll jump right to. So they're unsafe. I'm unsafe.

[A]

Yeah, they're.

[B]

They're, like, unconscious, and therefore, like, I'm at risk.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But if I don't stop it. If I don't stop it, that's really okay. I'm gonna steer us back because I think there's something valuable here without talking about parking, even though you're still unpacking it in a practical way. I went to therapy to get out of my situation. And what Dr. Gary Penn told me me was he's like, the way out of a situation like this is to not. Don't debate. Meaning. I was like, I want to not be in this relationship. And when you're. Again, we can take this all out. I'm not looking for juicy tidbits. And this isn't going to be a social media clip. I'm just saying, Joe. I'm just saying when you're dealing with somebody that has your number and seems to be pulling strings you didn't know you had.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And isolating you and you're losing your mind and you want to break up with this person. And that's what I'm saying. There are people in that situation that are listening without a doubt, to different degrees. My advice that I'll share every time is they'll say things like, I can change. Or let's say they say, you'll never find somebody like me. You don't know how lucky you are. Maybe we should try just dating again or something. Like, there are all these things that are just extending the date in the tiki bar.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? And you need to say, get your fucking hands off my car. There needs to be a moment. And then the support is the people that come out. This will make more sense. This will make more sense after you see Woman of the Hour, which is coming on Netflix. On Netflix, yeah. So that's a beautiful metaphor. But like. Like the tip that literally the monetary value of this tip is at least $30,000 of therapy is they'll say, you're gonna regret this. And you say, I might.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Isn't that. Isn't that. That takes all the power away. You're gonna regret this. You're right. I might regret this. You're gonna beg for me to take you back, and I won't. That'll be really hard for me. And in my mind, I'm just like, oh, my God, I'm doing it. I'm getting away. I'm just. It doesn't have to be about breaking up specifically, but extricating yourself, myself, from a fog like trance.

[A]

Yes. Well, I'll say, oh, God, this is really interesting. The presentation was different. It kind of didn't follow that kind of classic, that sort of pattern. But there was. But, I mean, in a very similar way, there was a moment where when this person would say, you know, just. Just cuckoo nut job things, you Know, just crazy things.

[B]

Wait, what flavor like to you about you?

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I, I know.

[A]

No, I mean, I'm. I'm like, I, I. But they're not saying I'm gonna go have to spend about. I spent about two hours on a Dax Shepherd's podcast, and I, you know, cried like, seven times, and it was a whole. That's why I'm like, I cannot be the girl that cries on podcasts. But so I'm, you know, I'm just trying to truncate it a little bit, but that, that basically I would try to. I was still trying to find a way to ever so gently, like, like, go, but this is reality.

[B]

Like, what.

[A]

What I was. I was trying, you know, in one way, it makes total sense. I was trying to hold on to my fucking reality and, like, my most intimate person in my life, like, I couldn't accept that he was in a totally different reality. And. And I kept trying to find a way to read all the books and go to Al Anon and go to therapy and go to couples therapy to ex, you know, explain, which we could argue is like, well, debate really, like, get locked into a debate that was, like, gentle enough that it didn't trigger his shame and defensiveness and, like, we could actually, you know, be existing in the same reality where, like, he was not doing great things and that was, you know, unacceptable to him.

[B]

And that's the mirror thing. And you. You become the witness to something he.

[A]

Doesn'T want to look. Exactly. He needed a mirror to say, you have never done anything wrong in your whole fucking life. And I couldn't do. I mean, no one.

[B]

No one could break up is so hard. As you say, I'm leaving. That's unacceptable to certain personality types. They're like, what, are you insane?

[A]

Yeah, like, it was. But it was like, when we're talking about, like, well, when did the spell break? And how did you snap out of. Was like a couple conversations right toward the end where, I mean, I don't know. I'd love to say that I. I finally decided, but I don't know if it was just out of fear that I just went like, I'm not gonna get into a power struggle. I'm just gonna, like, let him really talk and almost just take everything he's saying and go, oh, okay, sure. Yeah. Like, I didn't even subtly try, but it was almost the only movie.

[B]

Like, it's away.

[A]

No, but this is. This is almost like the only way that I could really see, like, I could Actually see, instead of trying to resist, I could go, oh no, you're so unhealthy. Like, oh, this is like giving him the space to kind of have his whole thesis statement rather than interjecting at all was like how I could finally see, oh, this is a fucking nightmare.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

And yeah. So that's when I was like, I think we to need. Need to cut contact. And you know, and it was messier than that and it, you know, whatever. But I really wish, like more than anything, I wish that there was like a moment or a thing I did or a thing I read that like the movie that I could then share.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and.

[B]

But it's. You are sharing it because even though you turn it into a story that's always going to touch people and shape them and because what happens in the movie without a spoiler spoiler is you do realize your power and you do realize that something crazy is happening. I haven't seen a lot of movies where at the end of the movie the person, well, that's a real spoiler. But let's just say that they don't like go for it and get the part. And you're so happy for them. You're so happy. It's a win.

[A]

Well, the, the interaction that you and I have in the. It's like a wordless reaction really. And it's, it's the win that I can get.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, I'll take it.

[B]

But also leaving.

[A]

You know what I mean? Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

There's a lot of wins. And get your hands off my fucking car is a win.

[A]

I almost cut that. Cause I thought, oh, I seem so lame saying that. And I literally had to go, you know, what if Nicolette, who's the girl in the audience, for some reason I thought if Nicolette was playing this part, I would want her to have that moment. So I got caught up in my own, like I was too, too aware of myself.

[B]

I guess I understand. Look, it took me two watch throughs to be able to tolerate watching my own scene. I can't imagine. And here's a. More a gentler question, meaning we're sort of in the grit and I love it. But I am curious. A director is often the refuge for. You've been in so many films. You can go to the director and say like, is this working? Or like, can you help me? Or. Or even just knowing someone's watching, whether or not they say anything to you. Was it hard for you to go back and forth and have to Watch yourself.

[A]

I will say that this is an area of actual built up confidence for me. Oh, I feel weird even saying it, but.

[B]

I know, wonderful.

[A]

But it's like I've been acting on film for 20 years and I have wanted to be. I've wanted to become the kind of performer who is helping the editor, who is helping the director, who's helping the cinematographer.

[B]

A friend of every department. That's what I. You want to talk about? I'm talking about myself. A real J hole that I joke that I'm a friend of every department.

[A]

Continuity in some way.

[B]

O. I help with the continuity in the middle of the scene, I'll go someone else's continuity. It's absurd.

[A]

It's absurd where you're like, oh, I hope no one noticed that. But I hope I get a fucking gold star for doing it.

[B]

Of course, I used to call myself Ford, friend of every.

[A]

In these like really literal ways, just more like that. Like, I don't know, there's just, there's times where I'm like, oh, I think they could cut on that little, you know, micro expression change or something like that. And I honestly think it's like a function of me being adhd. And it's like the performance doesn't totally, like, quiet my brain, but the performance plus thinking about everybody else's like, how can I be the best co worker possible? It's like so delight. It's such a delightful space for me to be in.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I'll say that, like, there. There was literally one setup, one angle where I didn't correctly predict, oh, we're gonna use this, take that and that'll cut with that and blah, blah, blah. Because I've been. I've been thinking about the edit for years. I haven't been directing, but I've been trying to be the kind of performer who's thinking about the edit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was, it was kind of fun because I was like, oh, I. What I learned was this setup that's like a kind of true profile of me. I was like, oh, because you don't have access to both eyes, the performance doesn't read as. You just need a little more from it, I guess.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So like, I was certain it was gonna be take three and it was take four, the one where I finished and thought and like mentally kind of just thought like I was pushing it a little bit.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And then that was the one in the movie because it. The Take 3 didn't read. I was like, oh, if the, if the angle had Been right in front.

[B]

Of me that talk about something that. Well, I don't think people talk a lot about this. I love that Michael Caine you can watch on YouTube where he talks about film acting. Have you watched that?

[A]

No. No. No.

[B]

It's really fun. Not for the tips. I mean, there are good tips in there, but it's just kind of like fun little piece of history. But he talks a lot about that. Like, how am I being framed?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I get embarrassed when I watch myself act. If I know, oh, let's say the camera's behind me, but it's. But I'm in the shot. There might be more of these.

[A]

Oh, I know.

[B]

You know what I mean? It's just. Because if it's your moment, I'll give it to you that way because that's your job. And sometimes. Sometimes you don't do that, but sometimes you do maybe one take, just as.

[A]

A treat, just like we're allowed.

[B]

Tell me something about acting. Like, the best. One way I phrase it, is the best piece of advice you've gotten about acting.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Or maybe something. A mantra that you carry with you, or is it more what you're saying? I was just talking to somebody about how Steven Spielberg would come up with ideas in the car because it's. It's occupying your motor skills and you're thinking about. So then you have your creative mind. So you're directing and you're acting, and you can kind of put it out of your mind when you're acting. Are you trying to not think about acting and just trust your instincts?

[A]

Well, again, and I. I'm sure it's different for everyone, so this wouldn't be, like, universally applicable at all. But I think that because I'm like, you know, ADHD and, like, I really like thinking about, like, the camera move and, like, having that in my awareness. Really don't see it because it almost turns off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The part that could get in the way. It's like, there's only enough room for the truth beyond this other piece that's going, oh. And then the. You know. But then the camera's gonna come around and then don't, like. Because then you'll be blocking Pete if you're doing that. And I found that I really didn't know what all the actors in the movie, because there's so many. Like, there's so many actors, and they're all so good. Like, what their process was gonna be like. And if I was gonna have to kind of suddenly learn the language of, like, a Very touchy feely, kind of abstract, conceptual.

[B]

You're a head actor.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You don't want to dance with silks.

[A]

Yeah. Who says? But I didn't. I. Yeah. I guess I was worried that there was gonna be at least one actor that came in where I was gonna be like, I don't know how to speak their language. And I found it was really the opposite. And the. All the actors were kind of desperate for the thing that I'm always desperate for, which is, just tell me what you need, and just tell me, like, what the shot is and, like, let me in on all of that, and I'm gonna do a better job.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

So I.

[B]

For me, that's an. Of course.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So I had a really great. I think there was even a moment with you where I said, will you just look at me for one second? Just, like, stay.

[B]

No, you gave me a really. And it's in the movie.

[A]

Yeah, it's in the movie.

[B]

And. And I think we're talking about that. I'm just trying to give you a compliment. Not so much remember exactly what it was. But there is a moment where I have to be very kind of creepy and hurt. And it's vulnerable. It's one of the more vulnerable. I guess you could just say dramatic. It's one of the most dramatic things I've done. But it's not me writing a scene from my past that I actually lived where I'm sad, my wife is leaving me, or something like that. It's like, no, you're a skis. And you're like, you're. And you're a baby. And I think you gave me something very specific. And you were like. I don't know what it was.

[A]

Was it the hair thing?

[B]

Was. It might have been the touching, the hair.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, Val told me the thing that the. That the killer guy improvised that.

[A]

Yeah. Like. Well, because I knew that I wanted him to, like, I. You know, it's not in the script, but I kind of knew secretly that I was gonna ask Pete to, like, kind of invade my space a little and, like, tuck my hair behind my ear. And you were like. It was very sweet. It spoke. It speaks well of you, that you were like, what? So I just. Wait, so why am I doing that, though? Like, what? I just. I just touch your hair. What? And. Yeah, and then I kind of have a weird. Almost like a. Like you're talking with your daughter, where it's like a. I sort of cower. And then you feel hurt that I cower. But that I knew that I was gonna have the Danny who plays the killer. His name is Rodney. I just feel like.

[B]

You mean the killer's name is Rodney.

[A]

Yeah, the killer's name is Rodney. I keep saying the killer, but I.

[B]

Kind of liked it. Like, we're keeping him out of the news.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I agree that. I knew that I wanted him to kind of do something similar, sort of tuck someone's hair behind their ear in the opening scene. But then when we. When Danny and I were shooting our sort of big scenes, he just, in one take, reached out and tucked my hair behind my ear. And that take is in the movie. And I was like, what the fuck is. And we like, keep walking. And I called cut. And I immediately, like, spun on him. And I was like, who told you to do that? Did someone tell you that? Why would you think. What? Cause I hadn't even told him that I wanted him to do it in the opening scene. Oh, wow. And he just did it. Because when you had that resistance to doing it, I was like, ooh, maybe it is too weird. And maybe no one would really do that. But because he. This actor is in the mind of someone very creepy who does not really see me as human, he was like, of course I'd reach out and, like, inappropriately touch her hair.

[B]

And I think if I was really in touch with that character and, like, did, like, a study, I could have embodied, like, a 70s guy that would do that.

[A]

But it was also your day one, and you were being. Being so funny in the scene and improvising all this stuff.

[B]

Well, you know, I. Look, watching this movie, I was like, oh, man, I'm. I'm more lit up about acting than ever watching being in a movie like this. And one of the hurdles for me is I want. I hate this, but I think you're gonna have something great to say about it. I want to be liked. Like, my. It's like when I look at my.

[A]

I don't relate to that. I just leave you hanging after all this. I'm like, I'm such a fan of the show. And then I'm like, ew.

[B]

Really?

[A]

You need to get over that. You love yourself, Pete. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[B]

I had heard you say something when you did the movie about the bipolar. Forgive me. You tear out your hair in it.

[A]

Oh, Alice Darling.

[B]

Alice darling. Yeah, that. That was one of your least less. Excuse me. Likable initially characters, right?

[A]

Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

So when I heard you talking about that. It was on Hot Ones, I was like, oh, maybe we can talk about this getting over, because this is the first thing I've been in where I'm like. Most of the parts I'm in are leaning into what I'm about, and I'm fine with that.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, I'm not, like, challenge me. But it's like, the guy, he's funny. I'm gonna riff a lot, and I'll be likable. And that's great. Great. I. When people talk about being typecast, I'm like, I'll take any type of casting. I love it. I love doing it. Fine. But here I am in a thing not being likable, and I. I was just curious. I guess the question would be, like, how do you get over it seems to me, like, having an awareness of the piece as a whole. These are my guesses, like, how the best way to be liked, like, for the killer. What's the actor's name?

[A]

I'm so sorry, Danny.

[B]

Danny. For Danny to go, like, well, actually, in the long run, the way to be the most likable is to be the creepiest killer in the world. It's like postponing your. Sometimes I want to eat a pint of ice cream at night, and then I go, but in the morning, you'll wake up and you'll be so proud that you didn't. So postpone your gratification. And there's something about, like, I want to be the funniest, most well liked, coolest guy on set, and you're asking me to, like, creep on you. And I'm like, but that's not cool. I want Anna to, like, maybe. But really, what Ana wants, she's the director. She wants me to creep her out. So postpone any of that.

[A]

No, that's so interesting. And especially because what that made me think of was that, you know, Dany had a really tricky responsibility because on the one hand, in order to prevent it from creeping into caricature, he had to kind of find a way to relate to his character and make his character the hero of his own story internally. And, you know, and all these things. And I think, like, had to be aware that these scenes. I mean, he worked more days than I think even me. I mean, not as a director, but as an actor. Like, I think he was on camera more days than I was. And yet, like, none of the scenes are really about him, you know, like, so he has to be so good in every fucking scene. And yet, like, none of the scenes and certainly the movie is not, like, centering his experience.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So the kind of generosity of an actor to go, well, really, this movie is about every. Every actor that I'm in a scene with. It's more about them than about me.

[B]

He's their shadow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's the scary shadow.

[A]

Yes. Yes. And like that, it's. He couldn't just show up and phone it in knowing that. Yeah, but, like. Yeah, I mean, I just. I can't speak more highly of him because of, like, that level of generosity. To be the guy that you hate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the guy who's giving such an unbelievable performance. But really, people mostly talk about the women in the film as they should, and the story should center them. And that's, I think, a very, very good sign and makes me very happy in terms of that goal that people mostly talk about. Oh, she was great in that scene. And you know that, like, you know, he had to kind of know that and know, like, I have to give this great performance. But I'm not really gonna be what people walk away talking about.

[B]

Right. And what's kinder than that?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What's the. That's the most likable good thing you can do. There's something. This kind of ties. I have it on my mind now in a relationship, when things aren't right and you think you're being nice by going along with it. And then somebody was like, I forget. Actually, probably, like five or six people said this to me. They were like, that's the cruelest thing you can do, is know that.

[A]

It's like, build a resentment and not let the other person do anything about it.

[B]

It's the same.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's literally talk about the micro murders that we're sort of committing and the micro suicides. I'm not trying to make light of anything. Anything like that. I'm just saying there are all these. There's this. The movie really gets you thinking about power and space and, like, how kind of. I don't want to say insane, but for lack of a better term, I'll say it's sort of insane that we're all playing these games of, like, pushing and pulling and. And who wins. And I know I already mentioned this, but I am curious about your experience. Maybe, let's say when you were first dating, did women, like, prime you and say, like, I picture a woman with a cigarette and a can of Tab, and she's like, anna, baby, let me tell you again.

[A]

Let me tell you about men, like.

[B]

Just when they pause, laugh. And I say that only with a partially broken heart because especially as a father of a daughter. But, like, did someone break it down for you? Like, hey, men are babies. You need to do this, this, and this.

[A]

I think. Well, I'm kind of having a revelation here, which is like, I think it's worse than that. I think nobody needed to tell me. It's so bake in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's just so baked in that we. Yeah. That certain people. And it's not always on gender lines. It. It does tend to be because of social. Socialization. But that. Yeah. Like, your job is to shrink. And if the baby, you know, has a tantrum, it's your fault and you have to soothe them. And like, no one ever said those words to me. Me. It's. It's actually like in saying them is like, oh, I'm. I'm saying the secret out loud.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I try.

[A]

Wait, can I. May I pee? I said I didn't have to. And I guess I just have the. You know, why am I talking.

[B]

This show is sponsored by Better Help. Halloween helps us have fun with what scares us. But what about the fears that don't involve zombies or ghouls or ghosts? What about codependents, tenants, or feeling like you're letting your family down or not knowing where up, where to put up boundaries or a toxic relationship? These are really scary things that have scared me in my life. And therapy has been an amazing tool for me personally to face my fears and find ways to overcome them. Because sometimes the scariest thing is not facing our fears in the first place and holding ourselves back. Talk therapy has been a game changer in both my life and Valerie's life. Life. It is greater than the sum of its parts. Talking to a trained professional is unloading and unburdening in a way that is almost. I don't know, it almost doesn't make sense. How much it helps, how much it has changed my life, seeing that it's just two people in a room seemingly talking. But it unburdens and helps you cope and find strategies to make your life easier and better. So if you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try. Why couldn't be easier? It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist. You can even switch therapists at any time for no additional charge, making it really easy to find the perfect person to get in that flow and get going. So overcome your fears with Better Help. Visit betterhelp.comweirdo today to get 10 off your first month that's BetterHelp Help h lp.comweirdo this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. We're also brought to us by our friends at Mud Water I've been putting Mud Water in my smoothie lately. I've been drinking Mud Water straight up. I've been drinking Mud Water with oat milk iced. Why? Because it makes me feel fantastic and sometimes in the middle of the day I want a little bit of energy. I want a little bit of a bonus boost. But I don't want the licking 9 volt battery or a car battery feeling of a second cup of coffee. So I'm obsessed with Mud Water. It's not just energy, it's a warm grounding feeling that is not jittery, it's earthy and solid. Perfect for when 3pm rolls around. It's organic gluten free vegan coffee alternative that is so chock full of goodness it's no wonder it makes you feel amazing. My energy is up and my sleep is so improved now that I'm getting more natural energy and drinking less coffee. It's powered by functional mushrooms and superfoods that boost your energy, your focus and your immune system. Each ingredient in Mud Water serves a purpose for a clean natural boost. Their OG blend, which is what I drink, contains cacao and chai for a hint of caffeine and a hot chocolate like flavor, Lion's mane for focus, cordyceps to promote natural energy and both Chaga and Rishi to support a natural, healthy immune system. Mud Water is like coffee's chill yoga loving cousin who went on a spiritual retreat and came back more Zen and without any of the jitters. Imagine being alert and calm at the same time while not having trouble to fall asleep at night. Packed with adaptogens, antioxidants and other fancy health words that will make you feel superior to your coffee drinking friends. So head to mud water.com m u d wtr.com who has time for vowels? Just that you M U d w t r.com and grab your starter kit for a limited time. Weirdos get up to 43 off your entire order. Free shipping and a free rechargeable frother. When you use Code weird that's up to 43. Off with code weird@m u d w t r.com after you purchase Ask they'll ask where you heard about us. Tell them this show it supports the show Keeps the light ons Keeps the lights on. Excuse me. Stay energized and refreshed all summer long with Mud water. Because life's too short for anything less than natural. Delicious. Nrj. And we're back.

[A]

Wait, wait. I just. Because I feel like I want to be aware of the time and I want to just, like, rip off the creepy band aid.

[B]

Oh, you may.

[A]

That I. The other thing about, you know, listening to this show is that. That I think I just don't have the temperament to consume some of these. Some of the, like, original material of some of the people that you tend to reference. And so I'll say that because I, like, you're so funny and you're so smart and quick, and you have this way of contextualizing things that a lot of this wisdom has made its way into, like, my mind and body through you. So I'm very grateful.

[B]

You mean spiritual stuff? Is that what we're.

[A]

Yeah, I guess. Like spiritual philosophy or self helping. Yeah, spiritual, religious, philosophical, psychological. That I'm. I mean, I'm. My bias is more toward, you know, anything that's got a Ph.D. feels like, well, this is real. And anything that doesn't, you know, like, my instinct is just to roll my eyes. And that's my issue. That's my bias. But that you make these things, I don't know, digestible or something in this way. That means that a lot of that wisdom I've, you know, I don't want to say internalized as though, like, I've done it.

[B]

Yeah. But it lives in you.

[A]

Yeah. And I was in therapy yesterday. This is where it gets really creepy. I'm gonna kind of show my ass here. But I was in therapy, and I was like, oh, I'm actually going on Pete's podcast tomorrow because sometimes I'll be in distress in therapy, and we'll kind of try to slow down and see what comes forward. And sometimes you will come forward, but it's a piece of wisdom that you have either, you know, from someone like Ram Dass or. Yeah. That you're quoting or that. That you've. I don't know, that I feel like if I just say you happen to have mentioned something someone else said, I'm not giving you enough credit for, like, the way that you. I don't know, you sort of speak my brain's language, the way I organized it. Yeah. And I. And so you will kind of come forward. And so I said to my therapist, I'm actually going on Pete's podcast tomorrow, and I'll have to tell him that, you know, he, like, he comes forward and she goes, yeah, more than anyone else. And I was like, oh, this is a nightmare. I'm living a nightmare. Because now there's no way I'm not gonna say that. And I felt so called out and weird. But, like, I think, like, it's like, I don't. I was like, that can't be. That can't be true. That can't be true. And I think it might be so sweet. It might be. Because, like, I. I don't know. I guess I. I don't have, like, a person as an representation of most things.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But the stuff that I've kind of absorbed from listening to this podcast, it's just you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, you show up a lot.

[B]

I really.

[A]

I think other things and ideas show up more, but as a person, like. Because I go, well, Pete, you know, Pete Holmes said this thing, and I know that it's not you, but sometimes I think it is. It might be a Pete Holmes original.

[B]

Well, you told me if I were you, I'd be you. That's it.

[A]

I. Oh, I texted you about that. Can I tell you. I mean, I don't know how much time we have because this might get a little wandering, but it. But that. So I did text you after, you know, you said, if I were him, I'd be him or something. You know, something like that. And I was like, that is so beautiful. And it's such a sharp way of saying such a big idea. And it was just like, you know, one of those, like, mind blown aha moments. And, like, it really has come up for me a bunch.

[B]

I use it a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I haven't embodied that one. Like, I don't just do it automatically. Of course I have to go.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Yeah. And if I was that person, I'd be that person.

[A]

And it kind of shows up for me in big ways. And then it literally showed up for me. There was, like, a car full of teenagers, and they were, like, driving really recklessly. It was very clearly, like, a peer pressure y kind of, you know, And I, of course, in, like, thought, that's so dangerous. I had so much judgment, which you could argue it is dangerous. So some judgment is not crazy.

[B]

But if you were, you'd be you.

[A]

If I were them, I'd be them.

[B]

But if you were you, you'd be you, too. We can extend the compassion to your judgment.

[A]

Sure. Of course. Of course.

[B]

We're almost out of respect for your time. It's been two hours.

[A]

Oh, God, yeah.

[B]

No, which is great. Which is great. Did you really forget that you were on Twilight? In Twilight? Did you really forget you were in on the.

[A]

Okay, on the one hand.

[B]

Because.

[A]

Yes. On the one hand, like, in a literal sense. No, I didn't forget that I made those films. But what would genuinely honest to God, happen is that, like, what I did in those movies was such a small part of what people really mean when they talk about Twilight. I'm just there to kind of be like, huh, what's going on with these guys? I'm there to do a tiny vaudeville show that I would begin to almost reference Twilight as that cultural phenomena, like, as that thing, and then go, oh, right, I was in those.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, so it's like. It so took on a life of its own. And I, like, am not really the thing that people are thinking about when they're talking about Twilight.

[B]

I get it.

[A]

So, like, it really became this separate kind of touchstone of, like, a pop culture, you know, in some ways, kind of this, like, Runaway Train and. Yeah. Just this huge thing that, like, it. I didn't, like, identify with it at all and really would have to go, oh, right, I'm in the. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

So, in a way, like, yes and no.

[B]

Yeah. You remember the movies, but you don't consider yourself. There have to be people that are in Harry Potter. I actually tried to do a joke about that where in the first Harry Potter, which Leela just watched, it's like, there's these bullies and they bully Harry, and I'm like, those kids are so excited that they're in a scene with Harry Potter.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I was like, that's some good acting. They have to be like, you little rat. And then they're like, I'm in Harry Potter. Daniel, it's so nice to meet you. This is me mum.

[A]

Well, I was even thinking, like, Kenneth Branagh is in, like, the second movie. He doesn't think of, like, does he then go, oh, right, I'm in one of those.

[B]

I'm sure.

[A]

I think it's like that. I'm like, Kenneth Branagh. That's what I'm saying.

[B]

You are. In so many ways. I was also gonna say Zach Galifianakis told me. I don't think on the podcast, but he told me that he was walking down the street and he saw a po. This is. If that's bad, then this is worse. I don't think it's bad.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He saw a poster for the movie, the Campaign, which is him and Will Ferrell, and he goes, I wonder if that's any good. As if he had nothing to do with it like, as if it was just an ad for him.

[A]

Not in a. Like, oh, I. I wonder if that move. If the movie turned out.

[B]

Well, not like that. He was just like.

[A]

And it was his own face.

[B]

A poster. Yes. And went, that's.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Maybe I should see that. Like, just like, as a consumer, like a sign for Pepsi. Like, maybe I should try Pepsi.

[A]

And you know him so, like, you. You believe. You believe him 100%, wholeheartedly. I love that.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

That's wonderful.

[B]

There's something, I think dissociatively charming about your anecdote as well.

[A]

Oh, I hope so.

[B]

Ana. An anecdote. Anna Kendrick Lamar. Lamar. Listen, are you gonna perform as Anna Kendrick Lamar anytime soon?

[A]

I mean. Yeah, just you wait. I mean, clearly my psychotic break is coming any day.

[B]

I mean, yeah, it's interesting. I was gonna steer away from anxiety, but it's such an interesting topic. Is that a big part of your life? And I say that in the spirit of, like, people are listening, that they are. And what's helped and what's.

[A]

I would say it had. It came in. It started. It came into my life because of that relationship that I was talking about. And then I kind of ended up in a kind of double whammy sort of situation. And so it's hard to know what pieces stem from what. But I would say that I've probably had, I don't know, like a typical relationship with anxiety until more recently.

[B]

Well, isn't there some hope there that you had so much of your life without it?

[A]

For sure.

[B]

Like, way more. And you'll. I just want to encourage you, I guess.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, you know, it's like, all I can do is kind of keep chipping away at it and like. Yeah, I'm obsessed with my therapist and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, also, like, I think deconstructing some of the stuff in the mental health field that I think is outdated wisdom or whatever the case may be, and even allowing myself that has helped some. I think the, like, rigidity to. I really went deep and still do into, like, wanting to understand all of the psychology stuff. And I mean, in the way that we tend to do. Like, because if I. If I just read and enough books about psychology, I'll have the answers and I'll protect myself from pain and. Yeah, like the let. Like the looking at certain things and going, no, I think that's bullshit. Has actually, like, been helpful lately.

[B]

That's good. Yeah, that's great. I. It's funny. We could talk more about The Meaning of life. Although I kind of got a flavor of it. Do you feel covered in that?

[A]

Probably.

[B]

I mean, do you want me to. Are you gonna leave and be like. Pete didn't ask me what happens when we. We could do. Just do that one. Do you think it's over You. I'm not trying to be funny. You lost your dad. Do you have any relationship. That's kind of a very personal question. But do you feel him? Or is it that. Or is it more of a. Yeah, I'll.

[A]

I'll. Well, yeah. I mean, again, it's. You say it. The blanket thing. Say it again. Come on, say it again.

[B]

God is the name of the blanket we put over the mystery to give it a shape.

[A]

So there we go. So I'll say it again that the. The name of the blanket that I've chosen is like. I feel that he shows up sometimes, like, in certain parts of my brain or body. It's like, I'll almost physically feel.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

My favorite parts of him show up for me when I really need them, you know, and it feels, like, very literal and almost physical, and it's incredible.

[B]

Well, as a dad, that's not even. I don't think you can contest that. If my daughter lands on her feet really hard, I feel it in my feet. And, like, if I think about her, a color and a shape appear in me that just isn't conjurable by other means.

[A]

Well, you know, I'll say that it is very weird that my. My introduction to this pod was with Tony Hill's episode. Cause Tony's in the film.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that is. I sort of put that together, but that's really weird.

[A]

I know. That's actually, like, really. I didn't even really put that together until after we wrapped.

[B]

I texted him how great he is. No reply.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, you think I'm not.

[B]

Gonna call that out.

[A]

Notorious dickhead Tony.

[B]

Well, that's why.

[A]

Oh, open secret. What a bastard.

[B]

Well, that's what I texted him. I was like, you know, it's great acting when I believe you are a skeez. That's what you mean.

[A]

Well, I mean, this is another kind of example of, like, I feel like I got, like, the nicest. The sweeties because it's like. It's more fun because the whole. Again, like, one of the central things is, like, how can you really know who's behind the curtain? And sometimes that metaphor in the movie is quite literal because it's the dating game and there's this partition, and you can't see what's beyond this wall. But sometimes it's like, hey, what if Pete Holmes was an asshole? What if Tony Hale was an asshole? And that might be a little inside baseball, because maybe people don't know Tony's reputation.

[B]

Sure, I loved it. And Tony, you've probably replied by now.

[A]

Don't feel bad.

[B]

I don't go to the hardware store for milk. There's people. I've stopped texting.

[A]

Oh, of course. Yeah.

[B]

You can't text Ben Affleck.

[A]

I think I try to get a Ben Affleck. Yeah, Tony's. Tony's. Tony's got. Yeah. Got all the milk.

[B]

He's incredible. No, that's. That's something. I still slip up and will text somebody. Like, what'll happen is I enjoy something and I really love it. Like with Tony. And I want to text. Text the person. And like I said, that's one of the ways I've grown is it's like, don't text whoever, knowing that you're gonna.

[A]

Get your heart broken.

[B]

And also. And even worse, knowing that it's really about you. I want them to hit the ball back to me. I want the person from the thing that I loved to acknowledge.

[A]

You like me, right? Yeah. We're friends. Give me some self esteem.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

It's why we wear shirts with Nike swooshes on them. It's like, I want your excellence to tell me that I'm excellent.

[A]

And because I'm like such a dyed in the wool avoidant. My thing is I'm not even gonna text them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I just get my heart broken and. And even if I didn't, they'd get to know me and then they'd find out the ugly truth. Reject me. Yeah.

[B]

I'm avoiding. I've learned. I've. I think there's a good avoidant, though, if you're texting a very, you know, busy, popular person.

[A]

Of course. It. I mean, the. I think, you know, the only reason to call it out is that it. It bleeds into places that it's like, that's a safe person.

[B]

You shouldn't have to.

[A]

What are you protecting yourself?

[B]

You could have gone, to go to the metaphor of the movie, you could have gone in the car with that person to the. To the hills.

[A]

Absolutely. But. So Tony is amazing in the movie. And my dad died. You know, we were shooting. We were at the start of a shooting day, and my brother called me and told me my dad had passed. And I had about five minutes to pretend that I was still on the phone and, like, just absolutely, you know, like, lost my mind. And then, like, sort of, you know, try to.

[B]

Was it sudden?

[A]

He'd been.

[B]

Not that that makes it that much better.

[A]

I'm just saying he'd been sick and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it happened a lot faster than we thought. Like, the idea that he wouldn't be there, that Christmas was, like, just out of the question in my mind. So in a sense, yes, and in a sense, no. But I, I. I just sort of, like, then wandered back on set and was like, I think we need to add a shot for this to cut. So why don't we, you know, just like, immediately kind of getting back on this movie.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And. And a couple hours later, Tony was in a scene and he came to set and he was. I couldn't quite tell you why, although I guess I think you'd probably understand why. You just kind of knew that Tony came to set and was like, hey, how are you? And I went. My dad died a couple hours ago. He was, like, the person that I told.

[B]

And Tony has. Tell me your pain face. Yeah, he has resting. Tell me your pain face.

[A]

But it was interesting because I. Because what he ended up saying to me, like, a couple hours later, because in the moment, he was just like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. And a couple hours later, he said, it's like, how could I have known that Tony would say this thing to me that I needed to hear so desperately? Which was. He just sort of went, you know, it's okay if until this is over, that just didn't happen. You're not in pathological denial. You're not dishonoring or disrespecting your dad. You'll grieve when you're with your safe people. And I cannot fucking tell you how that is. Like, I wouldn't have even known to ask for that. And it is exactly what I needed. So in a way, you're saying, like, Tony has. Has. Tell me your pain phase. Which. Which I totally agree with, but I didn't want to be held and seen emotionally. It was like I. I needed to shut it off because I couldn't have possibly gotten through the rest of the shoot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, when we shot your first scene, my dad was alive. And when we shot your final scene, he was no longer with us. And I had to be the same person. Right. And, like, the falling apart had to get very much put on pause.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I needed somebody to apparently tell me, hey, you can forgive yourself for doing a thing that from the outside looks maybe kind of callous.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or something.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And, like, I just. I. I feel like I just owe that man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everything. Because that was. Was unbelievable.

[B]

You'll grieve when you're with your safe people. I'm like, I instantly saw that on a shirt. Like, it's so beautiful. I'm like, I just want to tell whoever needs to read this shirt, because that is something remarkable about the human spirit. And I feel like you should be proud of that. And Tony acknowledging, like, it might feel crazy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's something when human beings throughout history have had to show up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not. I bet it's not as rare as either of us think when. When people just go, like, it's not the time. And you might be salving a lot of people that had that guilt or whatever. It's like. No, it's appropriate when you're with your safe people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I was thinking, like, what is the other thing?

[A]

And your body will naturally do that.

[B]

It's a thing we can do. It's a thing we've always done. It's sort of what separates us. Us, not just from the animals, but from children. You know, there's something grownups do. A lot of our grownup living is.

[A]

Going like, I can't fall apart right now. But hopefully, if we're healthy enough, we go and we will. Cause otherwise, it's gonna get us.

[B]

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[A]

Or I'm gonna enact it on others. Oopsie.

[B]

Whoopsie doodle.

[A]

Oops.

[B]

As a treat.

[A]

As a treat.

[B]

I felt like pitch meeting. Whoopsie. YouTube series I love. Yeah. That's powerful. I'm really glad we got that to share.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because that's really special.

[A]

Yeah. I'm grateful to Tony for saying it to me and that I can say it now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To anybody listening.

[B]

He's such a mensch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Such a. You know what he is. He's a good sandwich.

[A]

And I'm not. And I'm. And I'm not religious, but he told me the next morning that he prayed for me that morning, and. Ugh.

[B]

I know. Yeah, I know. I know. Because he is pretty classic in that regard. And it's such a nice feeling having spent so much of my life, my early life, I mean, like, my early teenage years, trying to convert people to my religion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's such a relief in going, like, Bill Maher is an atheist and Tony is, you know, traditional in these ways. It all belongs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everything belongs. We don't I don't have to burden myself. Myself. I'm actually looking at Richard Rod's book, which is called Everything Belongs. It's right over your shoulder. And that's such a beautiful gift that teachers like him have given me that I don't have to go like. But we should tell him about the blanket thing. You know what I mean? Although I think Tony would vibe with that. But anyway, interesting. I, I had. Would you. Do you feel good about moving on from dad?

[A]

Sure, yeah.

[B]

Because I was gonna ask you, just because it made me laugh so hard, would you tell this the very quick story about when you made fun of someone's accent because you thought they were doing a bit.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Because it is ready for the stage.

[A]

Well, okay, so. Oh, God.

[B]

It's a bit.

[A]

Okay, so, I mean, but you, you, you must, you've spent enough time, like, in, in the UK to know that, that, like, I would say that the way that we as Americans will sometimes in a joking way, do like a New York accent or a Boston accent.

[B]

I'm walking over here. Yes.

[A]

That I would say in the UK they do that even more so. Cause there's more accents and they're more exposed to all the accents because it's, you know, there's so many, and there's such a tight space and whatever. And so I'm so used to even, like the average citizen, not a performer, just going into a funny accent for just a little icebreaker. Right. And I, I, we're shooting into the woods, and we're shooting near Dover Castle. And. And I go to this, like, bed and breakfast, because that's the only place that could, like, house the cast near Dover Castle. And I get in really late for some reason, and this man comes out to help me out, me with, with my bags. And he goes, oh, darling, do you need some help with your bags? And I said, oh, yes, that would be wonderful. Thank you so much. And then he just keeps talking like that, because that's how he actually talks.

[B]

That's his voice.

[A]

And I have to, like, slowly transition out of the accent. But thankfully, I think he was an enough of a. A convivial spirit, a drinker that I don't think he really clocked it.

[B]

He didn't hit save on it.

[A]

No.

[B]

But you were an extra in his movie.

[A]

I. Yeah. I mean, did we even meet? Was I even there? He doesn't know a girl that talks like me. Said I could help her with her bags, but they. So the couple that runs this bed and breakfast is now on A show. Or maybe not anymore, but was on a show called Gogglebox, which is hugely popular in the uk. So, like, that couple became famous because he talks. His name is Dom and he is the guy. Yeah, it's his show. Yeah. He's also a film producer. Yeah, A TV producer. Producer that, like, he's known on this show. And they're kind of known for being, like, just painfully posh and loving a drink.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Because it's just them watching tv. That is. The show is. Is different funny personalities just watching TV and reacting to tv. And they're like. One of the most popular couples is this couple. So it's almost like I. It was like a dream I thought I had that was like someone this much of a caricature and somebody met him and went, you need to be on tv.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So is the show shot, like, over the tv or can you see what they're watching as well?

[A]

It might be, like, a little picture in picture situation or something. I don't know. I don't know why I'm looking at Katie.

[B]

You know, she doesn't.

[A]

She's a huge goggle box fan.

[B]

Thank you. Because that's. As a standup, I'm like, that would work everywhere. That's just a ready to go story bit, really. Would you tell me something surprising about Meryl Streep? You worked with Meryl Streep? In the good way. What surprised you about Meryl Streep?

[A]

Oh, no. Well, okay. I'll tell you a story that I actually feel like I maybe just told it on, like. But it might be one of those long leads where we'll beat them.

[B]

Yeah. This one is now a live cast.

[A]

That, you know, of course, like, you get to work with Meryl Streep. And. And mostly, again, because of my, like, avoidance, I'm like, I'm not gonna bother her. Like, she's. I just. So, of course, I don't. I don't, like, make bids for attention because I'm like, oh, she'll fucking hate me. And. And I certainly don't say, like, do you have any advice about acting? But I'm also aware that people are gonna be like, did you learn anything from Meryl? Yeah. And, you know, so I'm. I'm like, on the one hand, I'm kind of scanning to see, like, is there something that I could say without, like, it violating the trust of us, like, working together or whatever, you know, And. But while we're in the process of. I think we were doing, like, the recordings for the. The music and into the woods. I was. I found myself sitting alone at a. At a table with her. And, you know, we're. We've. We chatted and stuff, but it's like just the two of us and we're. We're kind of waiting for. For our turn to record or whatever. And somehow, you know, we're. I don't know what we're talking about, but somehow she starts sort of talking about acting. And I'm like, oh, it's happening, it's happening. Don't move. Don't even blink. It'll. It'll. You'll scare it away. And she dreeps her notoriously and she says. She sort of, you know, circling it and talking about it. And she says, but, you know, the close up, I mean, that's really where it happens. That's where you take your truth. That's where. And this PA comes in and goes, meryl, I just wanted to let you know that there's Manuka honey in the break room if you wanted any for your tea. And she goes, oh, oh, wonderful. And I was like, no, oh, no.

[B]

Over Manuka honey.

[A]

And I mean, how can we compete with Manuka honey? No one can.

[B]

From New Zealand.

[A]

No one stands a chance.

[B]

It's medicinal.

[A]

But of course I can't. She goes, and she makes herself tea. And I can't go, Meryl, just to pick up where we left off. You were about to tell me the secret to acting, which of course she wasn't. Which, like, I mean, of course, I don't know. It would have been something interesting, you know, like meaningful to me. Whatever.

[B]

I'll join you there. What could it have been?

[A]

What could it have been? But like, oh, but also the Manuka.

[B]

Honey, this is before you directed your movie, because now you would have went, can you actually hold. You were saying, I feel like you've blossomed in a new way. And no, nobody puts Manuka honey in a corner.

[A]

I mean, I don't know, maybe, but I. I don't know. I. You know, Jesus, you might just be like, oh, it would be so embarrassing to be like, what were you gonna say? I know, go back to the story.

[B]

But I feel like she might. You brought up.

[A]

I. I was being entirely too delicate around someone who was so open and so lovely and giving and generous and all these things. I. I absolutely could have said, what was the thing you were just saying in a casual way.

[B]

And we all were so familiar. We know she would have looked in a little blink, a thinking blink. And she would. Oh, yes, the close up. That's where you get your truth.

[A]

So that's all me just being like, oh, I couldn't. I'd embarrass myself to say, oh, you were. I feel like you were about to say something that I really wanted to hear.

[B]

My friend Jamie Lee, who's on Crashing, does a great impression of Meryl Streep refusing to take a compliment or something. And she goes, no, you, you. And like, I feel like that's what Meryl Streep would have been like. If someone says, you realize every time someone meets you, that's a story for the rest of their life. And she'd just be like, no. Oh, like, who she is can't have taken that into her being. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

I will say that. Oh, God, now I feel like a creep for name dropping.

[B]

Drop it.

[A]

But I will say that that experience with Meryl Streep was. Was like, I don't know, kind of like, spiritually or emotionally almost identical to the experience with George Clooney, because he is also the one where you know that anytime someone meets you, it's a story of the rest of life. And he would be like, oh, I'm not.

[B]

You know, there's no way he could have let it in either.

[A]

And he is so good at making you forget that he's. Capital G, capital C, George Clooney, you know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So, like, he de.

[B]

Cloons everyone.

[A]

He means yourself. Being like, oh, this dude's great. And then you're like, that's George Clooney.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So, like, they were very similar in that respect.

[B]

Does he talk really quietly on set?

[A]

I don't remember.

[B]

He's got that deep voice, and it's so. Without effort. It's so cool. I have to imagine shooting a scene in an airport. And he's like, well, that's the thing. I mean, and be like, what. What the was that, George?

[A]

Well, I mean, the. On day. Like, day one, my first seen. My first shot, he said, which. Okay, well, I'll just say that he said we were kind of waiting, and I think maybe we'd done one or two takes or something, and we're, you know, getting ready to go again, and we're just kind of waiting, and he's standing there and he goes, do you ever get insecure? I always get. I always feel like, oh, God, do they even. They hire me? But then, like, do they really want me? Ugh, I feel so insecure. And I was like, clune, oh, my God. Yeah, I feel super insecure. It's like so awesome that he just said that. Oh, my God. And then like, yeah, like 10 years later, I went, he wasn't insecure. He was giving me such a gift.

[B]

He threw you a bone.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

He was helping at that point.

[A]

I mean, I think it, I don't. You know, it just took me, like, of course I get insecure, but at this point in my career, when I'm on set, I'm not going, oh, God, am I gonna do a good job today?

[B]

He was imagining your reality a thousand.

[A]

Fucking percent and going, hey, let's. Let's give room for that.

[B]

Let's break the ice. Yes. Let's address the monster that was a fucking lie.

[A]

And it was the sweetest, the best thing.

[B]

It's called a Clooney.

[A]

A classic Clooney.

[B]

A sweet, generous lie is called a Clooney for the rest of the show, for sure. And I gave them a Clooney. And it means that. Although. Because at first I wasn't sure, maybe he did mean it. Because for some reason, as I came into the interview. Interview today, I thought about Gene Hackman on the set of Royal Tenenbaums. Said to somebody that. Well, I don't think it was somebody I knew. I think I read about it. Nope, it was third hand. Anyway, they go, don't you think every job. Like, when I got this job, I was like, oh, thank God. I thought I was never going to work again. And they were like, it was Gene Hackman saying that. So I wonder if even Clooney is sort of like even. I wonder if even Brad Pitt is. Well, I don't know, man.

[A]

I don't know. I mean, obviously we can allow for the idea that maybe, Maybe. I feel like. I don't know. I feel like I relate more to the Gene Hackman thing than the idea of, like, being on the set being like, oh, I'm really nervous.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I can't really know, but I don't know. This is also like, I mean, just peak of his powers. Like. Yeah, I. I think it was mostly him being the fucking best and just, just. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I always think about the, the, the pillow going in the trash. And he goes, they have those on the plane. He throws away your pillow. And every time I watch it, I go, no, they don't. They did back then, though. They used to give you little pillows on the plane. They don't really do that as much.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I, I, maybe it was. Didn't end up in the movie. But there might have been something in there about, like, you know, they have, like, sh. Shampoo at the hotel. Like, why did you pack shampoo?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I don't even think it's. I don't think it's in there, but. But I was like. I mean, I was certainly not in a point in my career where I was gonna fucking say, give a note. But I was like, no, woman. I was like, that's. That's a male thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's not. No, I was gonna say, absolutely not.

[B]

That's like, my go to is always. I made Val laugh when she was in labor. It might have been.

[A]

Was that your proudest laugh?

[B]

It was. Oh, are you kidding me? You're like, I'm the fucking kid of her. Scared for her. And it's such a. You know, you're about to cross this threshold. And the bit that got her going was we were listening to Beyonce, like, her power music. And it said, it takes 45 minutes to get all dressed up, you know?

[A]

Oh. Oh, that's a saucy song to be listening to in labor. I love. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Lights dimmed. Electric candles.

[A]

Altitude. Come on.

[B]

So that line.

[A]

Partition. That's partition, is it? Come on, Val. Come on, Valerie. I see you. I see your nap. Yes. Oh, yeah. You're so sweet on the pod. Sure. Pizza. Look at me and Val's. And I see you. But she said, I'm gonna give birth. A fucking partition.

[B]

That's what I'm gonna do. That's right. There was also a framed photo of Beyonce in the room.

[A]

No, there was not.

[B]

Yep. There was a framed photo of our dog Brody and a framed photo of Beyonce for her to look at for strength. And it worked.

[A]

I didn't think I could love her more. And here we are.

[B]

She's the queen of our hearts. But I go, you know, an old Jewish man. You know the rumor that other people write Beyonce's songs or just any pop stars.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It's just a. It's a thing. I hope there isn't. I've seen online. Who knows? I didn't fact check it. That there are people that write some of Beyonce's songs.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Going off of that.

[A]

I'm sure that. Speaking of that, like, I'm sure that songwriting is like the film industry, where it's like, oh, you know, Anna didn't write the screenplay.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's like facts.

[B]

But she brought it to life. There are. It's not contested. And I. Because people love Beyonce so much, I am going to step this out. It's not contested that, like, since you've been gone is a song written by a Swedish man who then shops it like movies to pop stars. And Miley Cyrus passes.

[A]

And isn't that Martin famously like, yeah, he's like, Swedish. And he would read American like he read Cosmos.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And kind of do a Mad Libs. And now we have California girls.

[B]

Right. And this is why we're worried AI can write pop music, because it might be able to very soon. But anyway, going off of that maybe untrue premise that an old Jewish man sometimes writes some of Beyonce's songs. As I go. And Val. Nobody loves Beyonce more than Val. So I'm taking the swing. I go, you know, an old Jewish man wrote this song because he's like, how long does it take a lady to get dressed in up? 45 minutes. Is it like 45 minutes? That's a long time, isn't it? And I was like, you think queen bee gets ready in sub one hour? Look at her. Oh, my God, she's dripping with elegance. You think that's 45 minutes? Jay Z is a man. That takes 45 minutes.

[A]

God, that's so true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't know why I just unquestioningly took. Because it sounds so good in the song.

[B]

It does.

[A]

Like, I guess you couldn't say, like, it took me an hour and a half to get all dressed up. Like, it just doesn't. It doesn't. Yeah. It took 75 minutes. If I'm really in a rush to get dressed up.

[B]

And we ain't even gonna make it to this club. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's so good. And she and my team. And you got a. Oh.

[B]

And she laughed and the baby was born. The baby was born. No, no, I'm making the story.

[A]

And she sneezed it right out the baby.

[B]

Look, I will. Okay, this is interesting because I'm like, we're going to rap. I'm loving every second. You seem like a person who's maybe seen a ghost. You do seem like a person who's seen a ghost. I will say you're from Maine. Get the fuck out of here. Maine?

[A]

Yeah. Stephen King and all that.

[B]

Just Maine, dude. Just Maine.

[A]

How much time have you spent in Maine?

[B]

Quite a bit.

[A]

Oh, well, then never mind.

[B]

My ex wife is from Maine. But. So I was there.

[A]

But it's not.

[B]

But then I'm not saying it's creepy. I'm saying Maine, New Hampshire, Connecticut, New York, Massachusetts. These are the Haunted places of our young country. That's all I'm saying.

[A]

Well, well, I will say every now and then there's like, I could have.

[B]

Just said New England.

[A]

There's a story that they're sort of debating adapting into an American story. Well, almost like, like something like Girl with a Dragon Tattoo or something like that where you go, well, what is the American? That's not a great example because it wouldn't work in Maine, but that there are certain, like areas of the world that feel conducive to certain stories. And it is almost like Maine sometimes is the only translation for a particularly creepy, isolated, dark.

[B]

It's exposed, it's on the cold water, there's trees. I know it's silly to say there's trees, but it feels like we've always been scared of the woods.

[A]

No, no. Not to constantly be bringing it back to the movie, but I mean, nature is very much a thematic thing in.

[B]

The movie of like and the exposed but also private.

[A]

Yes, that's in the movie. And that it is like on the one hand this beautiful, wonderful thing and something very dangerous like the ocean is.

[B]

Both, you know, the ocean is trying to kill you.

[A]

It is, it is both like restorative and wonderful and healing and transforming. Very dangerous.

[B]

The sun, love, human relationship.

[A]

And all of that imagery is in the, in the film. Yes. Because yeah, it does have this, this dual quality to it. I, and again, as someone who's a fan of the. I've thought, I don't have a good answer for.

[B]

Oh, that's okay. Have you ever almost died?

[A]

I know the wrap up questions. I, I've listened many times and gone, oh, oh, I don't have a good one.

[B]

Ever see a ufo? Probably no. You would have said, I, I have a good UFO one.

[A]

I guess I would, yeah.

[B]

Yeah, you would have said that. A good psychic story.

[A]

Well, I, I, I don't, I don't.

[B]

No PhDs.

[A]

I, well, I mean. Well, that's interesting that you just, yeah. Said PhDs, because I, I guess every now and then I've had an experience which again, I think psychology, the lens of psychology rather than something supernatural would say that it's projective identification where I will, I will be like, did you have like a really domineering, critical mother and it feels very psychic cold reading for you, right? Yes, I will be like, But I'm like, I be, you know, maybe it is, maybe it is this kind of energy we can't explain. And that's a very fancy convoluted explanation that the PSYCH that as a field psychology has come up with to explain this phenomenon that isn't a psychological phenomenon. But I guess again, because that's my biased. I would tend to go, there's a projective identification thing happening where I'm suddenly feeling, like, domineering and critical in a way that does not match up with how I normally feel or frankly, with. With the experience I'm having right now. And it just. It is almost like a spirit. And who's to say that maybe it is just a psychological phenomenon and we have called it. It this kind of psychic, spiritual thing. Or if it's the opposite, I don't know. But like. Yeah, every now and then I've had.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Like a. It's. And it. It feels like from the outside. Ooh. It's like a. Like a reading.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody gives you a drink and just.

[A]

In that moment you go, I see their entire life. Yeah. Just quick cuts of like that Matt.

[B]

Damon movie where he was a psychic. Clint Eastwood directed it.

[A]

What?

[B]

Oh, I didn't know this one. I know. That's why I like bringing it up. No one knows this.

[A]

I was thinking. I'm thinking about the gift with Cate Blanchett.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, it's a goodie.

[B]

Cate Blanchett.

[A]

I mean, everyone's fave.

[B]

Is she?

[A]

Yes, ma'.

[B]

Am.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Yes, please.

[B]

Would you. In closing, instead of the traditional closing question, will you tell me a Ben Affleck story? You told me one on set.

[A]

Did I?

[B]

Yeah, you told me about the cheeseburger. Because, remember, I'm obsessed with the movie. You know, there are those movies that you just like, can't stop watching. The Accountant is one of those movies for me. Shout out to Benny af. I think it's incredible. I really do. And I'm not the only one. I said that to Jed Appatown. He goes, it's a great movie. You loved it so.

[A]

Well, that makes me happy.

[B]

Meaning it's not. I. I think it might have gotten pushed to the side. Like it's just like a popcorn or like, I don't know, an airplane movie. I think it's a great movie.

[A]

It almost does feel to me like kind of like a. Like. Like a. My dad would call it like a good flick.

[B]

A good flick.

[A]

Like a 90s kind of like where it's like an adult movie, but it also isn't. Like, it's not exactly like an art piece.

[B]

I'd say that I'm with you and I'm over here and I'm like, if you have neuro. Non. Wait, no neurodivergence in your family. It's like, I think it's an important movie. Like, you watch it and you're like, this helps me understand a lot of people.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's. I think the idea was almost like a. Like a. Like a superhero movie, but not something. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, when I saw it being marketed, I was like, oh, Benny AF is trying for his born. Because I always think him and Damon are still. But that's not what's happening. They made a movie where somebody's autism instead of thinly veiled stories like Peter Parker being non neuro. Being neurodivergent and becoming a superhero. What if we just made it literal? They have autism and that makes them an efficient assassin.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I love it. And I love you in it. And I'm not just saying.

[A]

That's so sweet.

[B]

We had a good laugh where I was like, if you see me coming up to you in an airport, and I'm a fan, I'm like, would you guess that I would say the accountant? And you were like, maybe.

[A]

Yeah, maybe.

[B]

Yeah, maybe I got the accountant face. But you told me a story that you were shooting a scene and you said something.

[A]

Yes. Like, there's a scene where. Yeah. And it became kind of a shorthand in. In my life where, you know, in working. There's a scene in the movie where he and I have gone to a hotel suite and we are trying to figure out what to do next and how to, you know, get out of the corner that we're backed into by the bad guys. And. But, you know, whatever. And. And we. At some point in scene, we end up, like, moving to the couch. And yet I can't remember exactly, but, like, he monologues. I. Monologue. It's kind of a. A real, like, talking heart scene part of the movie. And. But the scene opens with him kind of pacing around before we kind of get into the. That meat of the scene.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And he happens to be pacing past this cart of room service, and on this tray happened to be a cheeseburger. And early in the day, you know, like, as we're getting started, we do a couple takes of this, like, wide master where he's pacing back and forth, and he comes up to me, he kind of leans in and he goes, we're gonna do more fucking takes of me walking around this cheeseburger than we are of my close up when I'm like, doing. You know, he didn't say this part.

[B]

What Meryl Streep would say, but the real acting, where you tell your truth.

[A]

But. But. And, you know, he didn't say this part, but, you know, the close up in which he does, like, this kind of pivotal heart moment for his character. And it's like a lot. It's like pages of stuff, you know, and he was absolutely fucking right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. I'm guessing it came to my mind while we were. Were working together, because I was like, I never want to do more takes of the fucking cheeseburger than it's a great burger. Than what matters. And, like, so the cheeseburger became this kind of mental shorthand for me. And I, you know, mentioned it to, like, my DP and my first AD and stuff, so that I could say, like, this is the cheeseburger, guys. We gotta fucking. You know, Like, I know that the master and the wide and the. Or sometimes it's not. Sometimes. Sometimes it's something else. That's the cheeseburger. But that, like, I know we all want every shot to be great, but I really can't sacrifice other stuff in this scene for the fucking cheeseburger.

[B]

All your enthusiasm and perfectionism is there for the cheeseburger, and it's gonna wane as you go. So, like, just punt. Punt the ball. Fuck the cheeseburger.

[A]

Yeah, we can. Yeah, we can sacrifice a little of this cheeseburger. Because what I can't sacrifice is, like, the heart of the scene is the good scene.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Anna, you're the best.

[A]

This was, you know, a dream.

[B]

Really appreciate it. What the. Is happening. You know when you take your phone out to do one thing and you see all these.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you're like, what was that?

[B]

Okay, just FYI, have another client after you. Okay, we don't have time for this. Anna, please review the show. We're trying to. It's hard with a million podcasts. This is my 22 camera, please. We love the show. I'm proud of the show. We've been doing it for a long time. It's hard to get new listeners, and there's so many podcasts, as you know. So please just go on itunes and give us five stars and leave us a review, and we'll read some of those on the air. And the movie is called Woman of the Hour, the longest Colbert you've ever done. It's incredible.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

You should. I hope you feel proud. I feel proud.

[A]

I hope Val likes it. I'll just die if she doesn't I.

[B]

Will text you a video of that angel's review because I'm sure she's gonna love it.

[A]

I'm really. I'm really pressuring her to, to fake it if she doesn't like.

[B]

No, that's your therapist.

[A]

If Val's not my therapist, this is news to me.

[B]

Val should be your therapist. Okay, I gotta run. I hate that, but here we go. Thank you. Would you please?

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Say, keep it crispy.

[A]

Keep it crispy. Imagine if I was like. Wait, what? I, I, I am such. I'm such a fan of a product.