Bob Crawford

Summary

Podcast Summary: You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes — Guest: Bob Crawford (Avett Brothers)

Date: November 2, 2022

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Overview

In this deeply moving and philosophical episode, Pete Holmes sits down with Bob Crawford, bassist and multi-instrumentalist from the Avett Brothers. The conversation weaves through themes of suffering, faith, community, music as spiritual experience, and the transformative power of love and presence—especially in the wake of personal and family adversity. Bob opens up about his daughter’s battle with brain tumors, the role of St. Jude’s Hospital, his journey with faith, and the spiritual underpinnings of music and connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Story Behind St. Jude and Bob’s Daughter (12:00–24:00)

• Background: Bob explains why St. Jude is a central figure in his life—his daughter, Hallie, is a patient at St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital after being diagnosed with a rare brain tumor at 22 months old.
• Hospital History: Bob tells the story of entertainer Danny Thomas vowing to do something great for St. Jude (the patron saint of hopeless causes), leading to the creation of the iconic hospital, its fundraising roots in the Lebanese/Syrian American community, and its role in desegregating Memphis hospitals.
• Miracle and Tragedy: Hallie’s initial dire prognosis and the desperate hope that St. Jude represented.

Quote:

"We arrive at St. Jude with no hope, but the hope of St. Jude, the patron saint of the hopeless cause." — Bob (13:54)

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2. Grappling with Suffering & Speaking Publicly About It (24:30–43:00)

• Trauma Becomes Testimony: Bob discusses the challenge and responsibility of making his daughter’s illness a public story—balancing honoring the real pain while also offering hope to others.
• Community Response: The kindness and support shown by friends, family, and bandmates during the crisis, including Avett Brothers’ members helping him through shock at the airport, showcases the communal nature of surviving tragedy.

Memorable Moment:
Pete reflects on how crisis "removes the distance between people," evoking Leonard Cohen’s line:

"The cracks are how the light gets in." (36:07)

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3. Finding Presence Amid Anxiety & Pain (43:35–50:55)

• Therapy, Prayer, and Mindfulness: Discussion of Bob's practice of therapy, his wife’s steadiness, and how being present is essential to enduring trials. Pete connects this to spiritual wisdom:

"Anxiety is paying interest on a debt that isn't yours." (45:44)

• Small Mercies: Loving details—who held Bob, who drove him, who was there—mattered as much as medicine or solutions.

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4. Suffering as Connection & Spiritual Growth (51:23–61:10)

• Radical Empathy: Bob expresses a longing for a world where suffering is seen as the glue that connects humanity instead of something to hide.
• Spiritual Awakening: Bob recounts the moment in the hospital when he unexpectedly led his friends and family in prayer—marking his own renewed commitment to faith and the Church, echoing the Abraham Lincoln quote:

“I found myself on my knees many times because I had nowhere else to go.” (53:38)

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5. The Habit and Ebb & Flow of Prayer and Faith (61:10–68:26)

• Prayer as Muscle: Bob and Pete discuss how prayer and spiritual practices need maintenance and can ebb and flow. Bob shares he was once bitter—loving God but not people—and how his faith community brought him back to loving others.
• Mystery Over Certainty: They address the importance of embracing the mystery of faith, citing Iris Dement’s "Let the Mystery Be" and Catholic liturgy’s emphasis on mystery.

Quote:

"If you can figure it out, you haven't figured it out... with God and faith." — Bob (77:05)

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6. Music as Church and Communal Experience (75:10–83:01)

• The Spiritual Experience of Concerts: Both discuss how Avett Brothers concerts—and live music more broadly—can mirror church and spiritual community, as audiences and performers merge in shared joy and catharsis.
• The Sacred Silence:

"The most amazing moment for me on stage is...when it's absolutely quiet, hushed. And it's that moment of just, like, silence in the middle of this whole thing. That's the loudest noise." — Bob (81:44)

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7. Theology, Mysticism, and the Nature of God (83:01–100:16)

• Afterlife & True Self: They explore evolving concepts of God, the afterlife, the merging of all consciousness, and the "true self versus false self" as described by Richard Rohr and Thomas Merton.
• Spiritual Teachers: References to Henry Nouwen, Tim Keller, and others reinforce the idea that deep spiritual growth is less about dogma and more about transformation, presence, and unity.

Quote:

"When I pass, I think...you become united with that energy...all the love you've felt in your life...you're all merged." — Bob (85:56)

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8. Lessons from Disability, Caregiving, and Childlike Presence (101:53–110:32)

• Hallie as Teacher: Bob describes his daughter’s disabilities as a window into immediate presence and joy, unburdened by cultural striving, achievement, or ego.
• Sanctity of Care: Getting his daughter dressed becomes a sacred act, offering a tangible experience of God’s love:

"When do we experience God?... One of the times that I feel God, have felt God repeatedly, is like, getting her dressed." — Bob (105:24)

• Pete sums the essence:

"Merging with God is not difficult for those who have no preferences." (107:15)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Handling Anxiety:
  “Even in 10 out of 10 nightmare suffering, you can slow down and drop anchor into the present and deal with it. And that's biblical, too. The concept of God not giving you more than you can handle...slow down.” – Pete (49:03)

• On True Spirituality:
  “The primary focus, the point of spirituality, of religion, is to get you to identify and get you in relationship to your true self...to know who you are in God.” – Pete (93:01)

• On Joy in the Mundane:
  “She teaches me, right? Because if I want...the Hallie I want, I'm gonna be angry and bitter forever, and I'm gonna burden her. But if I can get into Hallie's world and see the world the way she sees it, that's a good place to be.” – Bob (102:19)

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Standout Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------| | 12:00 | Story of St. Jude Hospital and Danny Thomas | | 25:00 | How Bob began sharing Hallie’s story publicly | | 43:35 | Therapy, anxiety, and learning to stay present | | 51:23 | Suffering as a bridge between people | | 61:10 | Discussion on the ebb and flow of prayer and faith | | 75:10 | Spirituality of live music and audience connection | | 83:01 | Deep dive into theology and the "true self" | | 101:53 | Parenting, caregiving, and spiritual transformation | | 105:24 | Experiencing God in the simplest acts of love |

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Lighthearted & Memorable Exchanges

• Name-Dropping Joy: Bob shares backstage memories (David Crosby, Bob Dylan, Rick Rubin, Ringo Starr, etc.) and pokes fun at the reputation of "name-dropping" (117:13–122:56).
• Shared Laughter: Both recall uncontrollable laughter with friends and bandmates akin to childhood sleepovers, and Pete’s story about a nude portrait in Scott Avett’s studio (124:39–125:47).

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Conclusion & Tone

The episode is sacred and silly in equal measure. Pete creates a space for vulnerability and philosophical exploration, honoring Bob’s candor about suffering, uncertainty, music, prayer, and love. The tone fluctuates organically from deep contemplative honesty to levity and camaraderie—mirroring the human experience itself.

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Closing Words:

"Keep it crispy." — Bob Crawford (127:04)

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Useful for anyone seeking an unvarnished look at faith under pressure, the spirituality of music, and the transformative beauty found in presence, suffering, and love.

Transcript

[A]

You made it with. You made it with. You made it with. Oh, yeah, you made it weird. Yes, you did.

[B]

You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[A]

What's happening, weirdos?

[C]

This is Bob Crawford. Bob Crawford from the Avett Brothers. I am such a huge, huge fan of the Avett Brothers. Huge fan of Bob as a person, not only as a bassist and vocalist and fiddlest and occasional trump trumpetist for the Ava Brothers. One of my favorite bands in the world, but he's also one of my favorite people in the world. He's incredible. He's deep, he's thoughtful, he's beautiful. And I had this chat with him, it was a while back, but we sat on it for a minute and I'm happy to be finally releasing it with you guys. And I spoke to him in his home over the Zoom Zoomables, and I'm so glad we got in touch. You guys need to see them live. The Avett Brothers are currently on tour, which is something that I'm just like. I'm not even close to done being grateful for the fact that we can tour again. The Avett Brothers. We can go see the Avett Brothers again. Go to the avettbrothers.com tour for tickets to those. If you go to any of them that are in California, take a look around. You'll probably see me in Val there. Hootin and hollerin along with you. Don't hoot and holler during this, you know, after the songs, not during the songs. Don't be that guy.

[B]

I'm also.

[C]

This is the silliest intro. I'm also going to be on the. I am on the road, I guess you can say, even though it's not, you know, I'm recording this at home. But go to peteholmes.com if you'd like to see me live doing stand up. It's the Where Were we tour. I'm so thrilled to be back with live audience crowds in cities other than Los Angeles. Thrilled, thrilled, thrilled. Thank you to everybody that came to Toronto, Atlantic City, Boston. Up next is Chicago is sold out, except we just added a late show on Saturday at the Den Theater. So please come out to those. It's going to be so fun to be in Chicago, the city that I pretty much. I know I did it a few times in Boston, but I consider Chicago to be the city where I learned how to do stand up. And it's always so fun to come back. So please come out to the den. Go to peteholmes.com for tickets. That's November 10, 11 and 12. After that, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Atlanta, Charlotte and Washington D.C. and hopefully we'll be adding some more dates very, very soon. And if you like this show, why not try, you know, this, why not try a Pete's Pick ads for things that I actually use and actually love, like Living Libations. Living Libations has done a complete overhaul of all of our hair, skin, teeth and baby products. We are a Living Libations family. It all started because I realized I was being very careful about what I was putting in my body when it came to, but I really had never given it any thought about what I was putting on my body. Sunblock Skincare Moisturizer. All of these things are often filled with a lot of chemicals that you just don't want getting into your body. And the things you put on your body do get into your body. And that's where Living Libations comes into play. This is a great way to support the show because they have little things and they have big things. Like we use their zinc based sunscreen. It's called Love the Sun. Leela is in preschool now, which means every morning we have to slather her head to toe in sunscreen. And just with the littlest amount of effort, looking on Amazon, all the stuff that they call natural or they call natural and like some sort of alternative to chemical sunblocks, they're still filled with chemicals. I don't know what's going on here. It's like a huge hoax. If you want an actually natural, actually zinc based sunblock that works fantastic, feels great on your skin and you can put something on your kid that you don't feel terrible about. Use Living Libations. Their love the sun sun screen is incredible. And also use it on yourself. I mean, you're worth it. I'm going to tell you, you're worth it. I use their Ginger exfoliating scrub, which is not only natural and made with ingredients that I can recognize and pronounce, but it's also one of the most. Not one of the most. It's the most badass exfoliant I've ever used in my life. Use it before you shave. The razor just glides.

[B]

It glides, baby, through the Zen Shave.

[C]

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[B]

Yeah, you do.

[C]

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[B]

You'Re my boy blue. And use promo code weird for a.

[C]

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[B]

You're just gonna be able to focus.

[C]

And get into that flow state that much easier. I have Alpha Brain in my car. I have it in all of my travel bags. I often have it in the pockets of all of my jackets. I've had fans come up to me and ask me for Alpha Brain and I've taken it out of my jacket pocket. That's how much I love it. And if you're doing something that involves your brain, if you're a student, if you're a creator, creative type, or, or honestly, Val and I just had a wedding anniversary. I took a couple Alpha Brain before our date just because I wanted to have access to my thoughts, to my.

[B]

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[C]

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[B]

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[B]

And support your brain support your clarity and your memory. Okay, this intro.

[C]

This intro is over. So glad I got to finally sit down with Bob Crawford from the Avett Brothers. Get into it.

[B]

You look great. Look at you. You're all like, I'm all sweaty. And you have an upright bass behind you. And who is that? Is that Merlin?

[A]

Do you know who that is?

[B]

Do you have an original Merlin? St. Jude.

[A]

That is St. Jude.

[B]

St. Jude. I don't know much about St. Jude.

[A]

That is the actual photograph of St. Jud Jude from before he was killed by arrows.

[B]

I don't know how to break this to you. That is not a photograph. That's not a photograph.

[A]

Maybe it's a daguerreotype.

[B]

What is a Duaga type?

[A]

It is the earliest photographs. There is one of. There's one of John Quincy Adams. It's. The first president to be photographed was John Quincy Adams. And it's. I think actually duraga type is the, the method, the. Maybe the name of the guy who did it.

[B]

Would they project the image through a lens and then paint it?

[A]

No, no. This is a photograph.

[B]

I've heard of that. No, it's really photographic.

[A]

I will send it to you. Yes, it's out there. I have it in a book on the shelf that you can't see because I don't. It's on that shelf right there. Right there.

[B]

You want to show off those built ins. See, you got a nice little setup going. I love it. Well, thanks for taking the time, man. Why St. Jude?

[A]

Let's.

[B]

You know, it's funny. Like, I do feel like I have to be like, so, Bob, how'd you get into Avits and all that stuff? But like, I'm really excited to talk to you because we have so many shared interests, but I feel like we have to like hook them a little bit. Them, the listeners, the people joining us right now and be like, Bob's in the.

[A]

He's in the.

[B]

Ava brothers, everybody. And that's, that's why we're going to listen to the rest of our God talk and our. On our discussion on all of that theology and good stuff. But I want to give a little bit. But, but before we'll jump ahead, why St. Jude?

[A]

Oh, because my daughter is a patient at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital. She has had three brain tumors sent through a brain tumor at 22 months old and two recurrences. Her last being September of 2020, which it was like the most 2020 thing that happened in 2020 to us as our daughter having a seven year remission of brain tumors, which you don't get a seven year remission. And then.

[B]

You mean that's unusual to come back after seven years?

[A]

I think it's unusual. Well, these are all rare and deadly, of course, and. But once you get five years, that's a pretty good place to be. And so for hers is really super rare. And I mean so rare that, you know, she was diagnosed with one tumor. And I can go into the names of them, but it'll just. People make people more confused. But. So she was diagnosed with one brain tumor here in North Carolina. Rare, deadly. We did second opinion at Dana Farber in Boston in St. Jude, and they said, no, it's actually an astrocytoma glioma, rare and deadly. But so we went to St. Jude. It was literally on a wing and a prayer. Because at our home, the UNC Chapel Hill, they said, there's really nothing you can do. We can pull up some chemo protocol off the shelf and maybe that'll give you some time. But. But there's really. We're talking about quality of life here, not survival. And so this is. This is in August. Well, we got to St. Jude October of 2011. She was diagnosed August 28th of 2011. And so we arrive at St. Jude with no hope, but the hope of St. Jude, who is the patron saint of the hopeless cause. And so we.

[B]

That's why. Because I knew St. Jude was the cancer hospital, obviously, but I didn't know why for the hopeless.

[A]

I can go into the history of the hospital that involves entertainer Danny Thomas, if you'd like, or we can skip over. Okay, but I will give you the really. Because this is pertinent. Danny Thomas, who was. Other than being. In addition to being a great comedian and singer and entertainer back in that he wasn't in the rap pack, but back in that era, the crooning times. The crooning times, he was. He had his own. He had the Danny Thomas sitcom and he also became a great producer and produced and created the Andy Griffith show, among many other great classic sitcoms. So anyway, Danny Thomas was a struggling entertainer and his daughter, Marlo Thomas had just been born and he was in Detroit and he had 15 bucks to his name. And down on his luck, he goes into the St. Jude Cathedral and prays to St. Jude and lights a candle, says, if you give me a break, you give me my big break. You give me just a chance, something to hold onto here, I will do something great in your name to honor you. And he put eight of his $15 in the prayer bucket. And next day he got a radio ad. And from he, you know, doing, voicing a radio ad. And then he got another gig. And then he got another gig. So years go by, he's very successful, very famous. And Cardinal Stritch, who was the archbishop of the cardinal for Chicago, said to him one day, cardinal Stretch, I think.

[B]

It was either we got to do.

[A]

Something about that or Stretch, that is. It was Stretch. I could tell you that Stretches is. That's like Nurse Hatchet. Are you saying Stretch is a stretch?

[B]

I'm saying it's like Nurse Ratched. It's like a name that you sound like you're in trouble just based on who wants to see.

[A]

Well, he, he was, because he said, danny, remember the promise you made to St. Jude? And so how do you know about it? Because Danny Thomas was a, he was a cat, like, very Catholic.

[B]

He slapped his gums and said, I made a promise. I made a promise.

[A]

Well, yeah, and he was also a Lebanese second generation. His father came over from Lebanon and so he was second generation American. And, and actually the fundraising arm of St. Jude is ALSAC, which is the American Lebanese Syrian Associated Charities. And so they decide to the good cardinal or archbishop and Danny decide to create a hospital for children with catastrophic illnesses. And they form this American Lebanese Syrian Associated Charities. And they go around the country and find all these successful Americans of, of Lebanese and Syrian descent. One of them, for example, was a man named Richard Shadiac, who was a Justice Department lawyer. And so there's. So all these guys get together and they begin to fundraise for this, for this hospital that they're going to build in St. Jude's honor. And they don't know where to put it. And the cardinal says, I think there's some. We have a hospital in Memphis, Tennessee that like a Catholic hospital that maybe isn't doing well. And I may not be getting all this exactly right, but basically they have, there's a Catholic connection to a hospital in Memphis, Tennessee. And the other thing that was attractive about Memphis was that it was very poor. And so if you have a hospital for catastrophic areas and you put it, you could put it in New York, put it in Chicago, put it in la, but if you put it in the south it's somewhere where there's a great need. So. So they decide they're going to put this hospital in Memphis and they start fundraising. And who fundraises for this thing? Elvis Presley, Frank sinatra, Sammy Davis Jr. All the. All the. All the heavy hitters of the time. So the hospital is, I believe, it opens its doors in 1962. I believe. I believe. But they. Groundbreaking, like 59 or whatever. And so anyway, Danny Thomas, one of the greatest Americans of the 20th century, at the very least, worthy of his postage stamp. And.

[B]

What I like about this story, Bob, is that. And this isn't a bit. He needed the nudge. Human beings are good, but we're better together. He made the promise, you could say, like, oh, yeah. But then he forgot. And then. And then Nurse Ratched had to say, hey, wait a minute. But that's actually what's lovely about. That's one of the many lovely things about that story. And even the humility to include that, that they weren't shy, that that was part of the story. And then it became this collective thing. But it started. I guess what I'm saying is I take hope from that. I have moments. We've all thrown Hail Mary passes and had prayers where we're like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. But it's when human beings get together, huge things happen, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah. Because we can't do it ourselves.

[B]

No, see, I mean, to clean that up, showbiz wise is you'd like to make that a movie. Somebody would want to remove the moment where someone said, like, hey, didn't you say you were going to do something for St. Jude? You would remove that? Because we want Iron Man. You know what I mean? Those are our modern mythologies. We don't want. And by the way, I'm not calling him broken. I'm saying we're all broken and we're all in need. And my wife Val is that for me, so often I'm an achiever. And one of the things that achievers can do is they can sometimes forget who's helping them or who's helped them along the way. And Val is very good to be like, hey, dipshit. And I'm just like, oh, God. At least you recognize when you're wrong. And you go like, oh, yeah, we need to make that right or make that right or whatever. So I love. That's the part of the story that really stood out to me, obviously, the fact that all of these people, these great people came together. I'D love to see Elvis fundraising and be like, a little less conversation, a little more donating.

[A]

That's right. Well, there are pictures, right? There are pictures of Elvis on a stage with Danny Thomas and. Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. Because Elvis being from Memphis as well, so it was. And St. Jude, the history of the. The hospital, I mean, they've. It was at St. Jude in the 80s and 90s that childhood leukemia went from a 20% survival rate to an 80% survival rate. 80 plus now.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So they've had the Nobel Prize winners and the, you know, went on to be. I'm sure he. When he passed away, that was what he was most proud of being a part of. And there's another great aspect of St. Jude was that here you go, you're in this Deep south during the time of. And just after segregation. And so you would have kids who came from all over and you would have, you know, white kids and black kids. And the. There was no housing at that point at St. Jude, so the hotels would say, well, they wouldn't provide housing for the black kids. And Danny Thomas said, if you don't take the black kids, I'm not going to give you the white kids here. And he really helped to desegregate Memphis.

[B]

And it's crazy to think, even at our age, I'm like, I can't fully imagine what a big move that was. We're like, of course, and everyone will support you and everyone will cheer. And it's like now when he said that a lot of, like, whoever it is, whether it be probably people not associated with the hospital, but probably some people even associated with the hospital were like, no, that's insane. That's insane. So he was. I'm trying to bolster that move. It wasn't as easy. You or I would be like, we need these. All the people. And now everyone would cheer. Thankfully, more people would cheer, but back then, the majority was actually like, what, are you nuts?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Which is thankfully hard to get my mind around.

[A]

It's never as in it always seems inevitable. Right? Like today, the day that we're speaking, is the 75th anniversary of D Day. And I've heard this a hundred times today, but it's just like it was inevitable, right, that the Allies were going to win the war and Hitler would be defeated and the world would be made safe for democracy. And for at least that 70 years that we had, we had it. But that wasn't inevitable. That didn't just.

[B]

Of course it wasn't. This is what I'm saying. That's the removing of cardinal stretch. What is it? What was it?

[A]

Stretch.

[B]

What was it again? Stretch.

[A]

You're gonna make me look always.

[B]

We remove the stretch from the stories we want just inevitable victory. But no story is certainly no story worth telling. But no human story is gonna be that clean. Of course everybody was nervous about D Day. Are you crazy? Of course, yes. But we look back and we give it a nice glossy shine. So that's why St. Jude, man. I do want to just jump into it because I love talking about this stuff. I'm a parent. First of all, thank you for telling that story. Of course. I know it from the movie. I watched you guys on cnn, so I've heard you tell it a couple times. Obviously, it's so weird. Actually, that would be interesting to talk about. It's like it's become a thing that you talk about. And that has to be strange, right? I mean, there are certain experiences in life that even though they're unwanted, they have a certain sacred or unspeakable, let's say unspeakable quality. But then it becomes like, what service is, Bob, to the world? What service is your family's story to the world if you don't talk about it? But was it hard to kind of get over that hurdle of, like, I have to imagine when your wife finds your baby having a seizure, that's like, the last thing on your mind is like, I'm gonna get good at recalling this and even breaking it down into beats and even having an awareness of, like, how much is too much. Like, I need to. Don't forget to close on Hope, Bob. People don't want you on CNN not closing on hope.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So there's like a cultural cancer talk dance that we do. Would you talk a little bit about that? Because it's beautiful what you're doing.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But I'd love to know how you've transitioned into surviving that. To guy who now talks about it, it's almost like, what happened? And then there's the way we talk about it. Right?

[A]

Sure. Yeah. Well, let me just say, for all the hope that there is, and there's a lot of hope, and if it wasn't hope, and if it. For me, if it wasn't hope, it wasn't faith, I couldn't go on. I couldn't talk to you right now. I couldn't get out of bed in the morning. My life would be just a dark and gloomy place. And it's hard, but there is hope, and there's joy in the pain and the sorrow. And we'll get to that.

[B]

As you said that. Sorry for lighting up, but I'm like, buddy, so many people, this is it. This is what we're talking about. And too much of life has become texting or social media or movies or just talking about pants. And that's one of the main reasons I'm excited to talk to you. Where you find that hope, where you find that faith, and finding the joy and the suffering, and also when it's not joyful, too, like, all of it. You know what I mean? So please consider this your safe space, because I really believe people need to. I need to hear it as well. So. And I'm here for you, too. You are not burdened with reminding us all that there's hope. I am here for you as well. So don't feel like you have to push it up the. Up the hill. But we were talking about. Talking about it and go. Go wherever you were going just then.

[A]

Yeah. So. Well, you know, you mentioned it. My daughter was. For those that don't know, the band was coming home from a European tour. It was our. Like, our most successful for us, you know, our most. Three and a half weeks in Europe, and it was really successful for us. And. And we were. We were on cloud nine. And we. The plane lands in Charlotte, North Carolina, from Germany. I turned on my phone, really excited because my son was just born two months before that, and I've been gone for almost half my son's life. Like, at that point.

[B]

Those are unfair fractions. Don't beat yourself up with those fractions.

[A]

But my daughter was 22 months old. And turn on the phone, and my wife's like, honey, I just. Hallie, she's in the hospital. Something. She's like. And my wife was just so poised and, you know, crying and struggling. But just like, this woman had just experienced the most traumatic moment of her life. And, you know, she went to get Hallie out of the crib. She's having a seizure. She's doing this thing called posturing where her arms are stretched out and her hands are balled into fists. Her left eye is moving. She was essentially having a stroke. Like, she was having seizures. And she was probably having a stroke because she had several strokes that day. And so my wife gets her downstairs. She calls 911-911-COMES, they go to the hospital. All this time, I'm in the plane, I'm completely unaware. Get to the hospital. They intubate her while she's awake. So my daughter lets out a scream. While they're putting the ventilator down her throat. And my wife, for the moment, was like, thank God she's alive. Like, just. That was a sign that. That Hallie was still alive. They do imaging. They find a mass in her brain that was a quarter of the size of her brain at that time, at that age. As you will probably remember, our skulls are soft until about. About that time is when they begin to harden. So she essentially had this mass in her head, this tumor, and it was allowed to grow larger and larger and move things out of the way. Like, it had moved her. The right side of her brain into the left side of her brain because of the softness of the skull. So.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So that's probably why this was the moment that it presented itself. She had. She'd vomited a little bit a couple days before, but, you know, you call the pediatrician, and it's like, oh, kids do this thing. And. And, you know, and then. Then she came around, you know, the night before, she was actually doing better. They. They went to get ice cream, and things seem. She was on the floor coloring. You know, things seemed to be moving in the right direction. So they get to the hospital. Hallie needs to go into surgery. It's emergency surgery. We don't know what's going on yet. And this is pretty much when I call. And so she's trying to explain this thing to me.

[B]

And. Can you talk? Sorry, but.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Tell me a little what was. You've talked to your wife about this moment? Yeah. How was she anchoring herself? Was it shock? Was it. Did she have to.

[A]

She was worried about me. She was worried about, like. Because she knows me. I'm a mess.

[B]

I'm sorry. I mean, of all the things.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I can be.

[B]

I'm fighting tears this whole time. But that. That. That is. There's something beautiful, inhuman about.

[A]

Yeah, that.

[B]

By the way, you and I both know by rights, she could have been freaking out. That would have been okay.

[A]

And she was, you know, in her. In her human way, you know? You know.

[B]

Yes. Please, nobody misunderstand that. She was calm.

[A]

No, she was poisoned.

[B]

She was able to think of that. That's a heroic love right there.

[A]

That's really beautiful. She had called our manager and had him meet me at the airport because she knew I couldn't drive the two hours. Once I got this information, she knew I would be unable to physically drive myself the two hours from Charlotte to Chapel Hill.

[B]

So Dolph. Dolph came and got you.

[A]

Yeah. And so the craziest thing is, like, Scott and I, we had. On the way, we had upgraded ourselves to first class. Like, the band were all Joe Kwon and Seth. You know, they're all on coach, and Scott and I are like, hey, let's just treat ourselves here. So we upgraded ourselves at the last minute. So he and I flew back in first class and just like, had the loveliest conversations and talked about music and. And it was. And our kids, because his son, you know, he had, you know, his daughter Eleanor, and then his son Max is only two months older than my son. And so we were both, you know, so excited to come home to our. Our young families. And. And, you know, we're gonna work with Rick Rubin and like, the. The few we had been working with Rick Rubin, like, the future, yeah, at that moment was. Was bright. It was just really bright.

[B]

Can I just say. Sorry to interject, but it's like, it's this. It's almost fitting, meaning it's like there's. You're flying, you're. You're dealing with what we are normally dealing with. Things like airplane suits, things like first class upgrades and good conversations and stuff. And I feel like we're all on this tightrope all of the time. And this. This is some of the relief I want to give. We all know that we're skating in a mystery. God makes plans, man makes plans, God laughs, that sort of thing. We all know that, Bob. And even though we're both fighting tears right now, I'm like, I think it's a gift to talk about this. Something about the European tour went well, the flight got upgraded. It rings cosmically true that there's so many stories, not just your story, so many stories that are like, talk to people on deathbeds that are just like, why are you so stressed out? Or why are you mad at your cousin? Because they are awoken to the potentials of. Of all the infinite possibilities. And there's something cinematic about what's happening. I'm not excited about it. I'm just saying.

[A]

But it's something.

[B]

Look about it.

[A]

It's coming for us all. Like.

[B]

Like, yes, that's it. That's right.

[A]

We are in the earliest days of this. We had a doctor who. We had a doctor, I'll just say that. And she said, you don't get through life without something like this happening, you know? And then we would have older people come, like. Like Scott and says, parents would. Came to the hospital and to see us, and they said. I remember Jim saying, this is what older people Experience this, not people your age. Like, this is, you know, you get older, you see tragedy, you experience tragedy. It comes, it comes close. You know, maybe that's right. Your parents pass and, you know, you just, you see, you see stuff, you live, you see stuff. And, but, but for us at that age, though, I was 40, but, but I mean, that wasn't the being at your 22 months old bedside, you know, when she's cleaning, the life isn't typical. So the plane lands. You know, I call my wife, she does her best to explain what's going on. And I'm, you know, my heart's dropped and I'm not in, I'm having a panic attack or something. I'm in shock. And at the moment, Scott's like, what's going on? What's going on? I'm trying to explain it to him. And then the TSA or whoever stormed the plane because there was like a threat on the plane. And they're just like that. You remember that you have the guards on the plane after 9, 11, they start putting those guys. Yeah, the marshals and the marshals. And there's like, you got to get out of the plane. You got to get out of the plane. So, so I'm trying to explain Scott what's, you know, going on. I can barely move. He's like, literally, you know, guiding me, like I'm a 90 year old crossing a street, you know, off of the plane. I explain for him, I explain it enough to him, and he literally guides me through customs and explains to them, you know, gives them my passport and says, this guy just got some really bad news. And like, literally, Scott got me through customs and then I get through and I guess the word had gotten out because I see that our band members and you know, they guess Dolph told them something was, was really going. Hallie was in the hospital and it was not good. And I could just see this worried, like this distance, you know, after this happened, no matter how close I was with anybody, Scott and Seth, anybody, like, there's, there is a gap, right? There's just a distance because you've experienced this. You know, go ahead.

[B]

I, I. No, no, yeah. Empathetic. No, you're telling this beautiful story. I'm just saying. That's what I'm saying. These, these moments where, where Scott merges with you. Yeah, it's this, it's this thing. And again, puh, puh. I hate this story. You know what I mean? This story, it's a horrible story. And, and there's These weird. He wouldn't have grabbed you like that, literally carrying. Not. I don't.

[A]

Yeah, no, you can.

[B]

And there's your band. And you finish what you were saying. It sounds like your hearts shatter open. It's like Leonard Cohen. The cracks are how the light gets in. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Suddenly, why do we have the deathbed, I love you, dad scenes? It's because the sledgehammer. How are you going to say it? Removes the distance, Right?

[A]

Yeah. And then I see Dolph. And this is the most beautiful one of the many, because you're right. Like, the light gets in the cracks. And my wife and I, we were crushed. But the kindness that we experienced over the. The course of this is just far and wide and deep. And one of the first, earliest acts, you know, besides Dolph coming to take me was. Was Scott getting in the car with us. And he had not seen his family in over three weeks. And without thinking or. Or thinking, like, this guy needs me. I don't know. He got in the car, he went to Chapel Hill with us, and. And dolphins had brought a friend to drive my car to, you know, home for me. All that way, two and a half hours. So it's. It's me, Scott and Dolph in Dolph's car driving to Chapel Hill, and then Dolph's friend Brian driving my car, following behind, you know, and. Wow. Wow. You know, just this. This really.

[B]

And.

[A]

And orchestrated by my wife.

[B]

No.

[A]

You know, because she didn't know what to do, so she called Dolph, and Dolph was like, you know, let me. I'll do whatever you need me to do. And. And, yeah, it's just. It's just. It's just incredible. So. So we get to the hospital and we go in the emergency. They told us to come in the emergency exit. And on the way, you know, Melanie, you know, we had another couple conversations, and it was just. It kind of felt like I was. She wasn't gonna make it. You know what I'm saying? It just. It just. It just seemed like, you know, we didn't know it was happening. She was in surgery this whole time. She's in surgery. And so we get there, and this. This one of someone who works at. An administrator at the hospital guides Scott and I up this back elevator as Dolph's parking the vehicle, and we go up to the.

[B]

Terry Bob. Just one detail.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Are you locked up, completely locked up at this, or are the emotions coming?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, at this point, I'm like, somebody's gotta hold Bob.

[A]

Well, there were times where I was touching him so calm on the car ride that I was. I was mad at myself for being so calm. Like, I was like, why. Why are you. I didn't feel anything. I was numb. Like, this is like. People say I was numb. That. That would. I would say. But then I would be just a mess. You know, it's just really weird. When I saw my wife, it flowed. And I saw her family was there and these people. I just. We. Our friends had get. Like, people had gathered at the. At the PICU waiting room, you know, and Hallie's in surgery, and. And. And the people we love are there. And my wife and I embrace. We look. We look each other in the eye and it's like this moment of like, yeah, we're. We're doing this. Like, we're doing. Like, we're in this and we're doing this.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

Like. And it was this affirming.

[B]

I wonder.

[A]

Like, go ahead. It's just very affirming. Like. Like, I know, like, she would have to tell you her side of it, but. But for me, it was. It just. It was like we. Like we. We had. We were the only two people in the world, you know, who were experiencing this. And we had each other. We had each other.

[B]

I wonder. But if the. I. I find sometimes in moments of high stress and I'm not going to clear my throat. People, when they talk to you, they must. You must hear constantly. Not to compare to you or all that sort of like grief, sort of.

[A]

PP measuring the suffering Olympics, we call it.

[B]

This suffering. I'm not even talking about a specific moment. I'm just relating to you that sometimes it's freeze. You kind of go into that fight flight. And sometimes there's like a. Like a numbness and out of body ness.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It's. And I wonder. Like, moments in my parenting. I felt where Leila had a lot of UTIs when she was a baby, and there were moments where Val, we're new parents, and she's just going like, I think something's really, really wrong. And for some reason I would just be completely like, this is okay. We will go to the hospital. And I said to Val later, I was like, I feel like if she was calm, I would have freaked out. But it like balances. It's like one of us at a time.

[A]

I'm the freak out. I'm the. I'm the. I'm the.

[B]

You're the freak out.

[A]

I am the freak out. King to this day.

[B]

Tell me.

[A]

Maybe it's gotten better. I don't know. You hope she walks in. You can ask her, but. But I mean. Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah. She. She's like. Has gotten to be. Because obviously we have. You know, Halle will be 13. I don't want to. I don't want to, like, like, skip over to, like, the happy thing, but, you know, she was 22 months old when this journey began. And she's here, man. She's here. You know, November 1st, she'll be 13. So, I mean, so, you know, she has multiple disabilities and.

[B]

And this.

[A]

And so it's been. It's been a rough. We've had a rough ride with her. But, you know, we know the joy, right? But still, you know, to this day, like, my wife's like, watch. She, like. I'd be like, what's going on? What do you think's going on? What do you think's happened? Thinks she's okay. And my wife's like, I'm watching, I'm watching. You know, she's. You know, she's more. Let's observe and let's kind of like, gather the data.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

And then. But I'm like, both. I'm calling the doctor.

[B]

Yeah, both are needed, though. I'm the one who won't call the doctor necessarily. Obviously, we have your limit, but. But I'll be the one that's like, I'm sure it's fine. Let me just walk around with her. I'll be calm. That'll calm her down and all that sort of stuff. But you need. Val Lela needed a whatever. Like, she needed the thing. So it takes both. So I'm just celebrating. Bob, obviously, we're celebrating your wife, too. But it's those two energies that balance one another. So I love. Obviously, again, I have to say, I'm excited by the love and the compassion in the story, and I'm saddened by. By everything else but the moment of. And the detail of looking in each other's eyes. I have to think almost like a car crash. It has to be. You're nowhere else in the world, right? I mean, you're not thinking about your present. Your present. And I'm not saying that's a silver lining. I'm saying that has to make it a peak experience. It has to be. Yeah.

[A]

Well, I go to therapy. Like, I see a therapist, right. And. And not every week. Probably should. I don't know about you, but sometimes I get to where I'm good, and then you don't see the therapist, and then, like, everything goes down. You're like, you call the therapist.

[B]

That's how I. Hey, that's how I am with meditating. I'm currently not meditating. And I'm like, something's wrong. And I'm like, pete, how many times you need to rediscover that? You need to be meditating maintenance or therapy maintenance. Yeah.

[A]

And it's like me looking at my Bible, you know, as far as, like, reading either. Either reading scripture or reading, you know, a. A thinker. You know what I'm saying? Like, when you're not nourishing something that.

[B]

That. That feeds you.

[A]

Yeah. You need to nourish it. But. But, oh, man, I just lost. I just lost. We're talking about. About being present, right? So, yeah, so I. I saw her a couple weeks ago, and I said, you know, it's all about being present, isn't it? And my wife would be like, I've been telling you that for 16 years.

[B]

At least your therapist is a woman. And then you can't be like, oh, now that a man told you.

[A]

When I think about the worst things that could happen, not just to my daughter, but to my daughter, frequently I think about the bad outcomes, and then just. I think about bad outcomes for my son. I think about bad outcomes for myself, for all of us. And that's like. That is not being present. And it's like. Because even when we're getting to this, like, getting back to what happened with Hallie in that moment in the hospital, it's like when the really bad things happen, they aren't. They pretty much don't happen all at once. All the bad feelings you have, it doesn't all happen at once. And when you're present to it. More digestible, as awful as it is, you're. You're. You're living it. You're greeting the moment by moment by moment, and you're. You're getting through it because you're actually living it and experiencing it.

[B]

Have you heard? Of course, anxiety is paying interest on a debt that isn't yours. I is a quote that I love.

[A]

My wife says, borrowing trouble.

[B]

Borrowing trouble.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've also heard praying for something you don't want.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That one's a little superstitious adjacent. I don't think that's how it works, that if you worry, worry, worry, then.

[A]

No, I do that all the time. Like my negative thoughts and my anxiety will not put a brain tumor in my daughter's head.

[B]

That's right. That's Right. And it won't. It won't crash your car. Like, you know, there's something. That's why I don't love that one.

[A]

It might make me play a bad bass note.

[B]

I will say it does work in the small. In the small term, for sure. If I went into this conversation and was like, I don't like. I will say before we start this, this is going to be great. We are both going to love this. This is going to people, this is their favorite episode. That sort of stuff. Because it does help in the short term. But I don't think I can, you know, I don't even want to say the examples of, you know, break your window or whatever. That's not, that's not how it works. But I do think it's interesting. I think it's brilliant. What you're saying is that when we're suffering, one of the ways to relieve it is like, ask yourself, what are you suffering for? And often for me and for, I think a lot of people, it's something that you're forecasting into the future that hasn't happened and probably won't happen, even if it's likely. Let me put it this way. Val and I have been saying lately, what's the problem right now? And so many of us, Bob, not just in you're dealing with the capital letter, tragedy things, but in most things our brain. I actually thinks it gets a perverse pleasure. You're a Bible person. I think. Obsessive thinking, dwelling, inability to let go of a fantasy. These are like demon possessions. These are possessions, sure. They rob you, without a doubt.

[A]

It happens to me all the time. I get. And if I'm exhausted and like, you know, you're on the road, hungry while. Or hungry hangry. Right? Yeah, yeah, I am. I am more susceptible to it. Little things will happen. I mean, I did it on the road this weekend with Scott and I was like, scott, this is kind of bothering me right now. Just, you know, it's just like, I just, you know, that's just. I reached that, that moment and it's just, you know, these things, it's. It's always lurking. If you're not nourishing yourself in the.

[B]

Right ways, buddy, I was just talking about this because I was. I just. I'm seeing a physical trainer. I can't wait to tell people. That's not true, but are you seeing.

[A]

A trainer or that you can't wait to tell people?

[B]

It's just embarrassing that I can't. I can't wait to tell People that I'm seeing, a physical trainer. But we were just today talking about this podcast and I was explaining a little bit about what it's about and cleaning up before you wake up. And some. Have you heard that expression, some people just want to jump to the spiritual. Okay. Bob and Peter talking about being present. Bob and Peter talking about when you're suffering, sometimes you're suffering an imagined future. Like. Or your imagined future is making your present moment way worse.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Even in. Even in 10 out of 10 nightmare suffering, you can slow down and drop anchor into the present and deal with it. And that's biblical, too. The concept of God not giving you more than you can handle. Well, you might build out, but if you slow down. But how do you do that? Often? I think the fact that you're in a good relationship, for example, the fact that you're creatively fulfilled, the fact that you live in North Carolina, that's no small thing. That you've decided to live in a beautiful nature place. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That you have so much to be grateful for. The fact that you're meeting your needs, the fact that you have. What were the things that kept coming up in that story? Dolph Scott, Seth family. These. That's cleaning up, like, before we jump to. Like, you can handle anything if you break it down into the moment. Sure. But that's going to make a lot more sense when you have your game a little tighter. Like just your psychological game, your social game, even your professional creative game. That's. That's been one of the big breakthroughs for this. And then also on a small scale, maybe you need a. Maybe you need a piece of pizza. Like, maybe you're freaking out, you know, like, maybe you need to regulate. Maybe. Maybe someone needs to hug you. Maybe you need a weighted blanket. Maybe you need to sit down. Maybe you need to shut your eyes. Like, that's all cleaning.

[A]

I love my weighted blanket, buddy.

[B]

Get real. I'm under it. As soon as. As soon as Leela goes down, Daddy's under that weighted blanket. Because that's why in the story I kept going, who's holding you? Who's touching you? Like that shit matters. And you want to talk about distance between us. We've had dinner before, you and I and run into each other, but we do the human thing, we do the first class coach thing, we do the how's your tour thing. And as you're telling me this story, my heart starts to crack open and you just want to. We're on a fucking space Rock and hold each other. And we're in these beautiful but delicate meat. I don't want to say meat suits. That's too crude. But we're in these. These bodies and. Whoa. The fact that any of us are fighting or arguing or mean or cruel or petty, it's a. It's a joke. It's a. It's a bad joke.

[A]

We need to be united in our suffering. Suffering. Like, imagine running for office and being like, look, I've been through some stuff. I know you've been through some stuff. Why can't we just be united in all the awful stuff we've experienced in our lives? Because I've lost, you know, a parent, and I. I have a daughter who. Who has had cancer three times, and. And. And we deal with all. And then I have her. Her brother who. Who, you know, needs. Needs care as well. And. And we're just trying to figure this thing out and. Man, what's going on in your life? Did you lose your job? Are you divorced? Do you have a disease?

[B]

Bobby? This. This. This. This. This. I'm not even interrupting. I just.

[A]

It's like church.

[B]

I just want to tell you this. Instead of doing what we do, which is hiding our suffering and acting like it's an error, I'm all for, you know, that might be getting too ahead of ourselves. It's like. It's a bridge. That's the kind of person I am. It's like, show me yours. Show me your suffering. I'll show you my suffering. There's a Mary Oliver poem where she says that it's like, I believe it's wild geese. It is wild geese. And that is not the thing to turn away from. It's the glue. It's the closeness. As I heard you say in another interview, it removes that last bit of daylight between you and your brother in the band.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

That's a great.

[A]

Forged together by the fire, you know, that we experience and. But we. We're divided by all the. As I. I've been doing a lot of reading and studying about the concert for Bangladesh, and George Harrison would say that the tidal wave of bullshit. And we are all just, like, caught, you know, beneath the tidal wave of bullshit. When. When the truth is that. That the things that unite us are. And it's become such a cliche, but the things that unite us are greater and more important than the things that.

[B]

Divide us and messier and stickier and uglier and embarrassed. And that's why I was like, how were you in the Car because people grieving, people in shock, people.

[A]

For weeks I just would sob. I just sobbed. And every chaplain that would walk in, I'd be like, let's pray. You know, every person, like, let's pray. Pray with me. And, and I would. My wife's. I want to get ahead here. Let me just tell you this, this is, this is the important thing. After my wife and I, at that moment, we look in each other's eyes and all these family and friends had gathered to be with us in our moment of suffering. And they're all worried about Hallie. And I walk in the waiting room and without thinking, and this, I wasn't this guy before this moment. I said, can we pray? And we all held hands and I prayed to Jesus Christ. And that was like, you know, I was raised Catholic and you know, I. But when I be. My later teenage years, I was like, I'm Buddhist, man. Or I'm this or I'm that, or I'm like, let me make a religion that gives me the lifestyle that I would like to live. And I can just make. Let me make my own, you know, like, let me take this from here and this from here, whatever. But. But this was like my moment of coming to faith. And it was, it was almost like there's that famous Abraham Lincoln quote that I'll probably butcher. And it may be apocryphal, but he said, I found myself on my knees many times because I had nowhere else to go. And it was just, wow. Moment of, of something deep inside of me wanted to pray to God and needed God and needs God. And so from there on out, we were early. Hallie was, you know, it was kind of thing where, okay, so the surgeon after, you know, and this is like probably two hours after that. So she's probably in surgery for six to eight hours. And we get, you know, led down this like I always say it was like a Kubrick esque hallway, you know, in the hospital to a. A darkened prep room like where like on Monday morning for this was a Sunday night. So it was like hat. It was like some couple fluorescent, fluorescent lights on. The rest of it was completely dark. A lot of bays where you have like the curtains that would be drawn. But they were all, all the curtains were open. There were very few gurneys in there. And it was like just a big empty room, half lit, big empty room. And the surgeon, you know, pulled up a chair and had to sit down and. And I, you know, he's like, you know, so I cut into her head and all this stuff started coming out and it was a tumor, really syrupy tumor. And it was. I think I got 90% of it. But she had strokes. And of course I said, is she gonna make it okay? Like that thing you learn from watching hospital dramas your whole life, you know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And he said, I don't know. He said, I don't know. And so it became evident. In fact, the next day, you know, here she is in the. Now she's sedated, she's on fentanyl and everything else and she's completely. Her head's covered and her face is covered and she's intubated. She's got the ventilator in. And he comes by like 4:00 clock the next afternoon, you know, before he's about to leave. And he said, you know, if you told me this time yesterday we'd be here, I'd say, okay, it's good. This is a good place to be right now with this. But it was always, it became. And then as the pathology came in and it was like this, they thought it was an ependymoma with a high grade ependymoma. And it's just a really deadly brain tumor that keeps coming back, just keeps coming back. And we know children who've passed from, from these tumors. And at that point it was like, well, if she survives the trauma of the strokes and the, the traumatic brain injury she suffered when she came in here, she probably won't survive the cancer. You know, so we, it got to the point where we were like, man, let's get through this part so we can fight the cancer. Like, fighting the cancer seemed like a good goal.

[B]

The reward. Yeah. You know, the manageable thing.

[A]

The manage.

[B]

Yeah, the.

[A]

Yeah, the structure that was our, our life became so unstructured and like any sense of routine or cohesion was ripped away from us. Right.

[B]

That.

[A]

The idea of being on, going through chemo or radiation, that was a routine. Yeah. You know, it's like a war.

[B]

Instead of. I'm not trying to be funny, but like, it's almost like Frogger. It's like get hit by something coming. Or a war. Like a war. Now we can have a situation room. We can plan in this, we can that strategize, talk to different experts. Not just crossing a crazy highway. Yeah.

[A]

And so every, every hour it came to breaking down the days to hours, to minutes. And my wife's old boss brought their very Catholic family and he and his wife brought us these like Catholic prayer books. Right. And the avid sister Bonnie, her Who now plays piano with us in the band. Her husband, Nick Reni, gave me his grandfather's rosary, and he said that his. In a little note in there, and it said that his grandfather was this, like, big, strong Italian guy and he was afraid of flying. And one time in his life, he was on a plane sitting next to a nun, and she gave him these rosaries, and he was never afraid again. And so. Wow. So I began to pray the rosary, like, four times a day in Hallelujah.

[B]

Which one? Which prayer?

[A]

Well, I would. If you go through the book, it. There's like the. Like the hours. It's like the hours. Right. So it's the. The part of the liturgy you go through the weeks. You know, it's like the different sufferings of Jesus. The different. What do they call them? But. So it's like passions. No, the Passion is like the. The. You know, the walk to his death. Yeah, but they are called. Can we get a. Can we get research on this?

[B]

But.

[A]

So you'll pray, like, you'll pray the. Finding him in. The finding him in the temple. Like, that's one scene. The Immaculate Conception is another one where Mary meets with Anna. John the Baptist's mother, Anne. St. Anne.

[B]

Anyway, that sounds extra biblical to me. Is that in the Bible?

[A]

Are you saying it's apocryphal? No, it's not. It is not. Not in the Bible.

[B]

It is not. Not in the Bible. You're saying it is in the Bible.

[A]

It is in the Bible, yes. It's in Luke, John the Baptist. There was a connection between John the Baptist's mother and Mary, and John's mother was much older, and they both got pregnant roughly around the same time. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's. You know, I think about this. It's like, no atheists in foxholes, obviously. Right, Right. Abraham Lincoln. Now, Bob Crawford, you're in the situation where, to use your words, kind of. If I was in that situation, I would be throwing up. Wholehearted old school, Dear Jesus, or Heavenly Father, or in Jesus name, Amen. All these different things. That's what you do. That's what you have to do. Right. I mean, there's no just floating around, being like, reality is a mystery. You go straight to mercy. You go straight to petition and pleading. Right, Right. After all this, I'm wondering what your relationship to prayer is. Now, I know there are studies that prayer helps. There's like blind studies. Have you heard about these?

[A]

Where? I heard, but I haven't delved into them. I can tell you my personal experience Is when things are going well. Excuse me. It's hard to pray, right? Like the most important thing.

[B]

Well, that's a bit of a chestnut right there. Yeah, it's true.

[A]

I talked to someone a year after all, when, when things kind of like I left the band for a year and you know, it was just because Howie went through treatment and, and, and I came back and then that was. That next year was hard, right, to be on stage celebrating and stuff and, and like talk. But you mentioned pants. Talking about pants. Like I'd be on the bus and these guys are talking about jeans. $100 jeans or whatever. Tuna, I don't know what, whatever. And I was like at first, for a while, I was like, oh, I was so much better.

[B]

Well, you woke up. You can't go back, right? But you can't go back.

[A]

But when you get some normalcy routine, a couple good year under your belt, you know, those $200 jeans. Jeans come back. Like the desire for the, the comfort of existence, you know, does come the.

[B]

Privilege of being able to talk. By the way, Joe and I went to that Gene place. I think, I think it's in. I forget where we were, but we were in North Carolina and I have Raleigh Denim.

[A]

Not sponsored by, Sponsored by Raleigh Denim. No, no.

[B]

In fact, decidedly not. Fuck you, Raleigh Denim. I'm just getting wonderful, wonderful pants. But that is, that is. You were craving the normalcy. It's almost like. Don't let me put words in your mouth. But there's almost a jealousy. It's like, must be nice to sit around just fucking farting about jeans right now.

[A]

Asshole. You know, my kid is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you're blah blah, talking about food and dinner and restaurants and jeans. What the. Yeah, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then, you know, you, life gets. You know, I imagine myself coming back and like wearing black all the time and just be a quiet figure, you know, Like. And I, you know, I. It's the habit of prayer. It's. It's a habit, right? Like. Like what I find now is you go through periods where my prayer life is good and I'm flexing that muscle and I'm, you know, nourishing myself. Just like we talked about earlier. This is the same thing with therapy. It's all. It all is.

[B]

Can I ask what you mean? It all is self care, self care, maintenance, maintenance.

[A]

If you're not. If you're not flexing the prayer muscle. If, if you know it's not right. Like if you're a person of any, any Faith, Any faith. You don't. Prayer shouldn't be a wish list, right?

[B]

Well, that's what I was going to ask. We need. We need a definition of terms here. When you're praying, is it more contemplative, is it more silent, is it more dropping? At this moment, tell me what prayer is for you.

[A]

Okay, so a good friend of mine who's a pastor, a real. He's retired pastor now, he. He said, you know, sometimes, like, he. What he'll do is he'll have an index card and he'll write somebody's name on it, and he'll just. He'll just think about them, you know, someone he's praying for. He just thinks about them for a while. And then, you know. Then, you know, ask God, you know, and thanks God for this person and ask God for this person's needs to be met. And for the greatest prayer I learned, because I would go through the waves of being like. As things would happen, you know, how I had recurrences, and I would get bitter, right? I would get really bitter. Like the jeans thing. That's a great example. Or, you know, of my bit, my exhibiting my bitterness. And he actually said to me one day when I was. When her. When she had her first recurrence, and I was like, I loved God. I didn't like people. I couldn't deal with people. But I was really faithful to God, which I got. Bad news for me. That's not right. That's not how it works. God created people. It's almost like you're saying, well, I'm better than these people.

[B]

I think that's, from my theological perspective, that's like saying, I like the ocean, but I don't like all these fucking glasses of water sitting around me. The animating principle to me, behind people, who you really are, from me, from my theological perspective, is the divine indwelling. You and I are talking as Bob and Pete, and that's fun. But the way that I can love you without knowing you is because I know deep down in our core, we're the same exact thing. What else really could we be? So that. That's. But I struggle with people, too. So I always say, Jesus didn't say, like, your neighbor. He said, love your neighbor. So there's lots of people you can be like, this isn't for me. But I was raised believing that, like, if you were a Christian, that meant you were to fake it. And I'm not saying it's not nice to be sweet. It is nice to be sweet. I'm saying, as Richard Rohr says, the word nice is nowhere in the New Testament. We've turned it something that's just kind of kind and social and good into the point when really the point is for us to figure out what exactly is the animating principle behind you as you tell me this story and behind me as I listen to it. And that's, that's where we can, you and I can merge even without suffering, if we could have that sort of awakening.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I love Richard Rohr. Like we, we, we. We avic. People love Richard Rohr. We find. Yeah. Great nourishment in his, in, in his, in him. In him. Yeah. The, the, the prayer. That, that, this.

[B]

Yeah, you were saying about prayer.

[A]

Well, and this is, this is like what I, what I pray for other people. Yeah, he prayed for me. And it said, he said that, that God meets you wherever you are, that you can just feel the presence of God wherever you are, you know, in your bitterness or, you know, in your pain and joy.

[B]

And of course, I think that's such a key part of the Christ story is that he's in the, in the garden and he's like, I don't want to do this, but it's. Again, these are the moments we would whitewash or sandblast out of the story is these moments of doubt or anger or fear. And I know people have different opinions on whether or not Jesus had those things. I tend to be in the camp that he did, that he was fully a person as well as fully divine. But that's how you, just how you and I relate over our suffering. People say that it's Jesus's imperfection, meaning his suffering, that makes him like. Nobody likes Superman, really. Like Superman with the bullets bouncing off. We actually respond and connect and bond way more to a broken. This is Richard Rohr, by the way, a broken, naked loser. That's what he calls Jesus, a loser by social definitions, of course. All of his friends turn their back. The government turns their back. He's murdered, he's betrayed. This is not. But we've turned it into the faith of winners for women and, and the $100 jeans. Nothing wrong with all of us having our hundred dollar jeans. That's fine. I'm just saying don't, don't confuse the message. It's not, it's not just the winner's circle. In fact, the whole. I would say the whole. One of the, one of the founding principles of the faith is what you do with suffering and what suffering means and what Suffering does to us.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And you know, for people. There's a lot of people out there who, who have problems with Christianity or. Or the. The gospel or, you know, you just gotta allow for. I think people have trouble being in the mystery. Like be in the mystery. You know, people there. We are a very rational society. Well, we don't act rational, but. But we, we kind of like believe that we're so rational and we're so evolved that, you know, intellectually that, that we can believe this or not believe this or. And if we don't believe, you know, whatever. I'm just like. This came up this weekend in a conversation and it's like there's a great song by a folk singer, Iris Dement. Iris Dement. And it's let the mystery be. And I just. It's go look it up. People like it just. It's very reassuring. And when you go to a Catholic mass and look, we don't go. Our family doesn't go to mass. Like we haven't gone anywhere since COVID but I mean, we were attending non denominational and that's probably where we belong. But my wife and I have great. It's funny, my wife came to her Catholic affinity from the church of Christ in North Carolina from a completely different place. But it's like. But when you go to a Catholic mass, it said like the mystery of faith, you know, like, that's a big part of it.

[B]

That's right. Well, that's. That's a Richie Roy thing too. We've turned faith into the opposite. Faith is supposed to be your. Your comfort level in the uncertainty. And we turned it into absolute certainty.

[C]

Pardon the interruption, weirdos. Back to the show in 60 seconds. But this show is brought to us by our friends at Trade Coffee. If you love drinking coffee every morning like said, I do.

[B]

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Mix it.

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Oh.

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[B]

Let's pick back up here. Yeah, I was excited, so I just went pee. And this conversation, man, I just want to say it just gave me one of these, like, peas where my feet were on the ground. Does that make sense? Like, I was walking. I just meant it made me. It's making me more present. The gratitude for life and for the present. And to think of beautiful things like people praying for people on note cards. Sometimes that's the most overwhelming thing. I've seen you guys play many times and I'm not trying to shift to that. So let's talk about the Evett. I'm just saying one of the things that's beautiful about the Avetts show is you're like, wow, every person here could be punching someone in the face, but instead they're Singing and dancing and crying and pointing their awareness towards the same beautiful things almost.

[A]

Talk about a mystery. For me, you know, it's like we started out and it was. You know, we were all much younger and, you know, we were in a band and. And all this, like the. The young man band dreams were still in play of, like, being in a band. And it's just. It's what you always wanted to do since you were a teenager and, you know, you're doing it and. And at some point, not too far in, you had people who were our age but bringing their parents, you know, and then those people brought their kids. And then that's when it began to. Just a few years into it, it just began to occur to me, like, this is unusual, like, in the best possible way.

[B]

And.

[A]

And there is, like, Scott and Seth, they write incredible lyrics, and they're beautiful and they're meaningful, and people attach great meaning to them for their own lives. And that's. That's what makes music so spiritual. Like, music is the great universal language. It's the. It's the ancient. You know, like, if you imagine, like hitting, tapping, was it a gong or a bell that just rings and it, you know, people do all the time to clear their minds and to pray and this and that, but like, like, that's. It's the mystic chord of life. Right? You talk about Leonard Cohen and. And beyond Scott and Seth's. Their intentions with all their lyrics is honest and pure and genuine. That's why the Avert Brothers. That's why the experience of coming to a show is what it is. That's why the music is what it is. Because it's honest and raw and genuine. But I believe there is also a mystery associated with it. Like, there's something, you know, like church. You know, like church.

[B]

Are you crazy?

[A]

Springsteen. And that's like church too. Yeah. You know, you know, but. But I mean, there. There is a. There's a mystery. Like, why is music. Why does music touch us the way it does all of us? Yeah. Somewhere deep inside, this is why I believe, like, there are things that can. Firm faith for me. Right. And accepting. I first, I accept the mystery premise. Like you, if you can figure it out. You haven't figured it out. Like, particularly with God and faith. Like if. If I told you I knew exactly the deal with God. Yeah. I'm full of shit. Like, I am. I'm lying to you because.

[B]

Or selling me something.

[A]

Selling you something because I know that this is bigger than me. And I think that music is Connected somewhere with all of that. It is just amazing that someone can play that someone who does. I don't speak the same language to or I can't understand, can play an instrument and it can touch my soul and it can touch the soul of every person on the planet.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. But it's greater than the sum of its parts. I don't know if you read Richard Roy's book on the Trinity, God as relationship itself, right? Why. Why is it the. The triune God? It's because God, he says God is more of a verb than a noun. And it's. And it's built in relationship. And people who listen to this podcast know I say this all the time. So when I said, are you kidding me? I just couldn't be agreeing more that an Avett Brothers or a Springsteen show or a Green Day show. It can be like church in this beautiful way where the. Perform the instruments blend first and foremost, right? The rhythm section, which is like the heartbeat, blends with the bass, which is like the roots, blends with the violin or the fiddle, which is like the spirit. And then the human voice. There's something, there's something literally in the creation story about the breath coming out. And then now ideas, which are objects that we create with our mind are being implanted and we're all having the same idea at the same time. So all of the members merge with their instruments. All those instruments and members become something we call a band. They put on something we call a show, and then the show merges with the audience. The audience also is individuals that merge into one thing called an audience. And the best shows I know, you know, this feeling are when the band and the audience merge into.

[A]

Well, that's absolutely key, right? The, the, the. The audience sends the energy to the band, the band sends. Receives that and sends the energy back to the audience. And then the audience sends it back to the band. And it's this. A concert is a constant, like, because the audience, I think the audience touches like starts. They light them like the fuse because they're there anticipating this experience that they're about to have. And then. So they're cheering because then before the band comes on and I've been in the audience, like before I played in a band, like going to concerts was. Was my thing, you know, I went many concerts. And. And so you're so excited for the band to come on. And so you're cheering right before the, you know, when the, the tech comes on and, you know, the tunes, the bass or the Guitar. And that just amps up the crowd.

[B]

More and more and more.

[A]

And then the band. So you're. You send out the love, and then the band comes out, and then there's this, like, mutual greeting. And then the band starts playing the song and they're sending. Yeah, we hear you with the love. Here's. Here, take this. Take some more of this. And then, like that, it just. That's how the night goes.

[B]

And that is. What was a room full or a stadium full of strangers becomes an Avett Brothers concert. And that. That's a transformation of sorts.

[A]

I'll tell you one. Let me say one more thing on this. Sure. Sorry to interrupt you, but the most amazing moment for me on stage is when we are doing a song. Well, maybe it's just, you know, Scott or Seth doing a solo song. Maybe it's three of us up there doing a song. It's a very quiet song. And it's. You know, there's like. Miles Davis would talk about the space between the music. Right. You know, when it's that moment in the song where it's absolutely quiet, where the. There's a break in the music and then the audience is absolutely quiet, hushed. And it's that moment of just, like, silence in the middle of this whole thing. Like, that is just the most incredible. Like, that's the loudest noise and just great.

[B]

The emptiness.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because I think what a lot of us are looking for, whether we're going to see the Top Gun or going to see. You could call it. Or see you guys play, you could call it escapism. That would be putting it down, I think. I think at a concert, let's say what you're escaping is your story, which is constantly changing. So it's not the realest part of you, but in that silence, just for a moment, that which is essential to all of us and shared in all of us, gets to be quiet, loud. Including you guys. Right. I mean, that stillness is a whole space. W H O L E. It's a whole space. Instead of the noise of even you and I talking right now, we're telling our stories. And maybe you relate, maybe you don't relate, but it's these moments in between where it's like. It's the white part on the page. That's where we all are.

[A]

Or Scott would say, in terms of fine art and paintings. Negative space. Yeah. The need for negative space.

[B]

That's it. So let's talk a little bit about your theology. I blabbed a little bit about the ocean and the glasses of water. That sort of leans towards my. I don't even want to talk more about mine. I'm interested in where you are in that faith. And we've talked a little bit about how suffering ignited it, how suffering enriches it, how. Here's another Richard Rohr. Human beings don't change unless things stop going their way. I mean, why would you change if things are going away? He actually prays for one humiliation a day. I sort of stagnated. I haven't been reading my spiritual texts and stuff. This is going to sound like a joke. I had like a weird call with my mother this weekend and I was like, perfect, because it was uncomfortable. It was like this uncomfortable chat. And I hung up the phone and I was reading about suffering and I had. I had something to latch into. I had a feeling that could. You said, light the fuse. Light the fuse on the idea. Otherwise it's just sort of. And God said, but when we're hurting, it kind of makes it stickier in what we love to know everything, right?

[A]

It makes us ready. We're like, we're. We got the ears on. Like, we're.

[B]

It humbles us, it opens us. Right? We got the ears on is beautiful. I love that. So why don't you tell me just a little bit about it?

[A]

What are.

[B]

What are some of the things, the mystery of it? When I went pp, I was going to tell you God is the name of the blanket we put over the mystery to give it shape, which is one of my favorite quotes, that it's not about certainty. That's what the ego wants. I want to know what God is so then I can tell you that you're wrong and we're right and we're in and you're out and all that sort of stuff. That's an ego trip. But when I say that God, the reason I believe in God, hold on to God, you play with God is because God, as an idea, as a. As a. As a symbol, as a metaphor, is my way of participating with the mystery. It's my way of giving it a shape with the blanket.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So let's start there. Old man in the sky. Fine. If you do have an old man in the sky, tell me. Tell me the images, tell me the. The quotes, tell me the. The ways that you land on this thing that is so nebulous that so many people just turn away from it.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I think that the ultimate. Right. Like, I think when I pass to get. I'll just jump right to. We know Cloud World where you're playing ping pong table with your grandfather who looks exactly like he looked the day he passed away. Yeah. You know, I do love that idea. I do love that idea. But I think it's. I think it's you, you. You go to God because you become united with that energy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you become united and it. And it. But it feels like that. Like, it feels like all the love that you've felt in your life and everyone that you've loved and all the people that loved you, you. You do see them because you are. You're all merged, right?

[B]

Yeah. No, I like that.

[A]

I.

[B]

The more I study and even the further out things I do, the more I'm like the traditional understanding of heaven. Ping pong with your grandpa, George Harrison.

[A]

Exactly. He looks exactly like he looks like he does.

[B]

I would take issue with that being literally true, I'm saying.

[A]

But like, that's what you kind of think at one point. That's what I thought at one point.

[B]

No, of course. But George Harrison says this too in the documentary, the two part documentary. He's like, the further you go, you start this journey away from old man in the sky, ping pong with grandpa who looks exactly like he does, and then by the time you're through the journey, you've come full circle and realize that all of it is true and all of it is not true. Meaning. From my perspective, the afterlife having the merging into the essence of all potential means the essence of all potential. Meaning that too. Meaning that to. Meaning that too. I've even had some psychedelic experiences where I'm like, were you, Bob there? No, but yes, you were there. It's like Dorothy waking up. You were a part of that. Because I went into the all, everything was there. Every cat's whisker that's ever been born was there. And at the same time, did I see a single cat? No, not, not literally, but the metaphor of Cloud City, every cat, and Bob's there, works pretty good for our limited constricted brain.

[A]

Yeah, well. And as I don't know if Harrison said this in the, in the documentary that you're referring to, but I believe there's a. On YouTube, there's a 1997 interview on VH1. And he, man, I can't believe it's on VH1 because he is just talking some serious truth and he says, you know, we're playing roles like, you know, right now you're whoever and I'm. I'm George and you're whoever. But, but we're all just. We're all just the same.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right now, at this moment, we're. These are our masks, and these are the roles we're playing. And that's right. My personal, you know, talk about Richard Rohr, a lecture, and I don't think it's a book, it's a lecture that has been really important to me is True Self, False Self.

[B]

Okay. So you're the first. You're the first guest to bring it up before I did. I've listened to True Self, False Self through. All the way through three times. I'm obsessed with it. I always go back to it when I'm. When I'm feeling.

[A]

And it is like that. Like James Finley. James Finley, who is. Is in New Mexico with the center. Okay.

[B]

For Action and Contemplation.

[A]

And Scott told me. He said this. He said that you just really, really need to read one book. If you have a book that speaks to you, just read that one over and over again. And that's kind of like. It's good to go back to that on a yearly basis. True Self, False.

[B]

I agree. I feel that way about that one and Power of Now. But. Yes, absolutely. You mean. But it's an audio for people interested.

[A]

It's on audible. Yeah, it's also an audible.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I believe that's where I have it. Okay. And it seems to be a lecture, like a weekend retreat.

[B]

It is. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's not a book. Yeah.

[A]

And the deeper you get, you know, you read some Richard Rohr books, then you realize that, you know, he's talking about Thomas Merton, like he's really connected to what Thomas Merton was. Was thinking and his thinking. So then, you know, you listen. There's. There's great lectures. Thomas Merton taught at Gethsemane, which is a monastery, I guess, in Kentucky. And you can. On audible as well. You can find his. Like, his teach. He's teaching the young. What do you call them? Abbots, monks? I don't know. I don't know. Wait, there's audio of him teaching. Oh, a lot of them. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Really? I didn't know that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's got photographs of presidents and Merton teaching. I did not know that.

[A]

Yes. So they're really great. But. But.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

No, no, just by far. And if you said, well, what is the. I like, man.

[B]

He's got.

[A]

He's getting a hard time on Twitter, this guy, Tim Keller, who I love and I still love. I don't know why he gets a hard time. You know, he gets really Harassed on Twitter these days. And I don't spend too much time investigating why, because. Because he means a lot to me. His sermons, I listen to his. And you can also, on itunes, listen to his. His sermons. It's gospel in life. Maybe more conservative, maybe a little more traditional than Richard Rohr in a lot of ways, but. But intellectually, he. He can explain the faith to a non believer, I think better than. Than anyone else, really.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I. I found great comfort in his sermons. Great.

[B]

And these are true self, false self. So the essence of true self, which we sort of hinted at with George Harrison, is that you are, for lack of a better word, and that this, all of this is, for lack of a better word, the dao that can be named is not the real Dao. You are your awareness. You are not your thoughts. You are the witnessing presence that's observing your thoughts. And around those thoughts, you've built a Persona. You call yours Bob, I call mine Pete. But like, if we lived forever and I took you, Bob, to another planet, and on that planet, something about the atmosphere changed your body into a blob, a blob of blue goo, and we started calling the Bob of blue goo. Funny that it's a Bob of blue goo, blob of boo goo. If we started calling that blob Harriet, and you live for 6 million years on this other planet, because you don't die on this planet, certainly after maybe a thousand years, you would completely forget that you ever were Bob Crawford on the planet Earth. So the point of that thought experiment is the witnessing presence. That is kind of taking the amalgamation of the thing that you call yourself, this construct, your history, your past. Well, I'm a musician. I played in this band. I'm a Southern person, all that. I like this. I like that. Well, now you're a fucking blob, dude.

[A]

And yet, same blob, different day.

[B]

That's right. There you go. And the essence, the animating principle of that blob is the same thing that animated Bob. So what you are isn't what you think you are. The Buddhists say they have two things. They go, who am I? Which is a great thing to sit and say, who am I? And we're not talking about, I'm Bob, I'm from the South. I'm saying, who am I? When you say I, what do I mean? And then they follow that up with who's asking? Which is just, if the first one doesn't bake your noodle, which it doesn't for a lot of people, because you'll go, I'm pete. I'm a 6 foot 6 Lithuanian. You have all these answers. You go, who's asking? Who's asking? In that quiet, weird, echoey, dark, staticky filled khaki sandstorm behind your eyes, you say, who am I? Who is asking? Who's asking? That's it. That's the whole. That's true self, false self. So Richard says. Richard Rohr says the primary focus, the point of spirituality, of religion is to get you to identify and get you in relationship to your true self, to know who you are. We would say in Christian language, in God. Who you are in God, by the way, which is the point of almost every fairy tale, including Harry Potter. I like to point out Harry Potter is from special blood, royal blood. That's all the story that you're from. Something greater and something mysterious, something way bigger than your sad British family. You're from Hogwarts. Why do we tell that story over.

[A]

And over and over?

[B]

It's because it's your story. It's everybody's story is what Merton and Rohr and all these people are trying to say is, wake up. You're not Harry Potter the dweeby thing. You're Harry Potter the wizard. And you have a birthright, that you're the beloved.

[A]

You are the beloved.

[B]

You're the beloved. Yes. And it's better than laser beams and Petronius Conspucto. It's your beloved. You belong. Your trust of God is. Well, let me put to this. I would say, because who you are deep down is divine. I would say when you die, you're actually going in rather than going out. It was there the whole time. I think you and I will go. When we're there, we'll go. It was there the whole time. And I don't know if we'll actually be there as separate entities, but we'll realize it will have been there the whole time. Does that jive with you?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that does. It does, yeah. It's more of a falling away than coming to, I guess is the way.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Think about Henry Nouwen. Have you ever read Henry Nouwen?

[B]

No. A lot of names I'm getting.

[A]

He was a great. Was he Catholic? I don't know if he was Catholic, but he spent a lot of time working with special needs individuals. But he has a sermon. He talks about the beloved and it's the, you know, it's like that moment where Jesus is baptized by John and the dove comes and lands, you know, on his head and God says, you are my beloved, you know, and that's who we all. We are all the beloved. We are all, you know, we are all chosen by God. Like we were chosen by God.

[B]

That was. That's a big Richard thing, is that I grew up in a church that worshiped. Nothing wrong with worshiping, but like worship Jesus, instead of realizing that he was demonstrating, he was modeling what a human life is to be. And we're all to wake up in this life. Not. Not just later, but now. That's a Richard Rohr thing too. He goes, it's heaven all the way to heaven that you're supposed to have this realization here and now. And there's no other time to have it but here and now. And of course, everybody knows I'm going to bring this up. The Prodigal Son, which, as I always say, is Jesus's closer. It's the most agreed upon. What do you guys. What's your second encore these days?

[A]

Oh. Oh, you know, well. Oh, no hard Feelings every night?

[B]

No. Wow.

[A]

That's our Prodigal Son. That's it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's our.

[B]

That's. That song is just. If you guys haven't heard no Hard Feelings, that's exactly what we're talking about. It even addresses the infinite potentials that it is running into Jesus in the sky and it is going into a snow or a rainstorm. It's. It's all of that. It's just a masterpiece of a song. But the Prodigal son, Jesus is Closer is to me. It's like you're always with me and everything I have is yours. That's the punchline. So the father who's the stand in for God says to the son who thinks he's a fuck up, he says, no matter what you're doing, I was there the whole time. We were. We were never separate. We can't be separate. The whole thing was just a ruse anyway. Let's have a party. You know that that's one of. Scott produced a song about Roger Ebert's last words. Have you heard that song?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Scott produced it. He sent it to me. Forgive me. I can't. It's all an elaborate hoax. Those were Roger Ebert's last words, so. But he said it with joy. This is the realization of the true self. There's a. There's a laying down of a burden when you go, it's a hoax. There's a sad, scary way to say this was a hoax. There's also beautiful. That's what my Daughter's name means, by the way, Leela means the play of the universe. You could say the hoax of the universe. I like play or the dance. But it's a way of saying, like, Bob to you. Right now, I'm saying, it's a Leela. It's a Leela. It's all for its own sake. It's all for its own evolution and growth and play and dance and exploration and look at all of the things that grow. It's the Buddhist thing. The lotus flower grows in the mud. You know what I mean? That's the birth, the death, the resurrection that we're in. But the human ego just wants growth. It's like corporations, we just want growth. We just want winning.

[A]

And we have to keep winning. Like. And how can you just keep winning? You can't keep winning. You can.

[B]

That's right. That's. That's the whole thing. And that's why the mascot for the Christian faith is nailed to a cross. That's the whole point is, like, look at it. There has to be a different game being played. It can't just be, does Bob Crawford win? Does Bob have a gold toilet? Does Pete have a gold toilet? Get the. You know, when we were shooting, crashing, we would sometimes shoot in, like, $11 million penthouse apartments. And I was like, buddy, everybody's pooping, everybody's sleeping, everybody's eating, everybody's watching tv. Everybody. For the most part, yeah. What I'm saying is it ain't there. It's one of my favorite Jesus things. Don't lay up your treasure where moth and dust and rust can corrupt it, get better treasure. Otherwise, you just have a $70,000 TV. Dude, like, congratulations.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Like, not see you in hell, but, like, you're still on fire, right? You're still on fire. I don't mean hellfire. I mean, it's still written on running water. It's nowhere. It's nothing, and it's nowhere. So there needs to be a deeper dimension. And that's what spirituality has offered me.

[A]

Yeah, it offers me. Well, this is like, we continue. The Richard Rohr line of thinking is falling upward and the idea that. That the first part of life, you know, it's about achieving, collecting and. And getting comfortable, and then the second.

[B]

Part, and building a container.

[A]

Building a container. Second part of life is about getting rid of it all and shedding it and forgetting it and putting it aside. I talked to someone to get back to my daughter for a moment, because I think this is really relevant. Actually was getting my hair cut today. And the guy that was cutting my hair, he has his sister's special needs. And so we connected on that. And I said, you know, and he was also kind of revealed to me his faith. And I said, you know, when, like, we. You and I, you know, we're always trying to achieve, like, we're. We're just like, from an early age, you got to get good grades and you got to be a success, and you got to make money and you got to, you know, buy a nice car, buy a house or. And you just completely even. Even now it's like, I want to do this podcast, and I'm going to do this thing with SiriusXM. I'm gonna do that. And we're. Well, we're gonna record a record. And I just want to do. I want to do. I want to be. I want to be. My daughter, she's in a wheelchair. She doesn't use her left hand. You know, she. Her. Her. Her success is existing, living. Like. Like, she did the most. She's achieved the most badass thing you can imagine. She survived three brain tumors, and she's got the scars to prove it.

[B]

And.

[A]

And she's like, our egos. Me, you know, your ego, my ego. She's free of that. I mean, she's not. It's not that she doesn't have ego. No, I understand does. But that. That life goal of being and doing. Like, she doesn't have that burden.

[B]

She.

[A]

She. She's.

[B]

You can.

[A]

12 years old. She's, you know, she. More like she's in Prince. She'll be in Princesses forever, you know. You know, God willing. But. But she feels music just, like, so intensely, and she's so joyful and so happy. Not all the time. Most of the time, yes. And so she teaches me, right?

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Because if. If I want. If I think about Hallie, the Hallie I want, I'm. I'm gonna be angry and bitter and forever, and I'm gonna burden her, right? But if I can get. Get into Hallie's world and see the world the way she sees it, that's a good place to be. That's like, that's the place to be, right? And this is attention, right? Because no matter how much you're like, I accept what has happened, and I accept her as she is. There are times when you're just like, hallie, would you get in that stander? Can we get. Can we like, you know, do we need to put your arm in a cast to straighten out your left wrist? And you Know, all these things that we do to her, and we just. And, you know, we want her to learn, and we want her to be all she can be. But. But also accepting who she is and seeing ourselves in that. Seeing it as being a gift, you know? A gift. A gift, right. She's the gift. She's the teacher. Yeah.

[B]

Bobby, you're a delicious sandwich.

[A]

One last thing. One. One last bite.

[B]

Oh, I'm not wrapping on this.

[A]

On this.

[B]

I just call you a delicious sandwich. Before.

[A]

But before I forget, hopefully with spicy mustard, too. I love, of course, golden spicy mustard.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

When, you know, my wife, like, I'm gone a lot, and my wife is doing a lot of the bathing, like, the work of Hallie is getting her in the bath, getting her out of the bath, getting her dressed, giving her medicine. She doesn't sleep. Like, she needs to be turned. You and I, we, like, turn ourselves over at night. How many. We don't even know how many times she'll get into a position and call out because she needs you to put her back in the place that she wants to be. So it is a very physically demanding, you know, caregiving. It's very physically demanding.

[B]

But.

[A]

But the nights that I'm getting her dressed, you know, I'm putting on her socks, putting her PJs. And I have had this thought many times, and I've had it like, where, like, you want to. We can talk about reading Richard Rohr or reading Scripture. But. But when do we experience God? Like, when are we. When are we feeling it? Like. Like, that's the. That's the mystery, right? Like. Like, we want to get to where we're feeling it. Because I can talk to you about the Prodigal Son and what I learned about Luke, you know, chapter two or chapter four. And then I can go out and get in line at Starbucks and curse somebody out for whatever. You know what I'm saying? Like, I can have these human, really frail, ugly human moments. I'm very capable of those as much.

[B]

As anybody else, of course, Bobby.

[A]

But when you feel God. And one of the times that I feel God, have felt God repeatedly is, like, getting her dressed. And it's like she can't get herself dressed. And so it's like, this is caregiving, right? And I think, man, this is what God wants us to do. Like, this is it right here. This is how he wants us to love each other. Like, to care for each other. Like, the idea of, like, you know, just like, I think people feel this, like, with elderly parents More than with their children. You know, you get your kids to the age when they can dress themselves and that part of it for you is done. Like, there's plenty of work to do, but that part's done. But. But a lot of people get to where they have an elderly parent, and then they're getting that person dressed or getting. Cleaning up that person, you know, changing that person's diaper. And, you know, we experience this with our daughter on a daily basis. And. And it's not lost on me, and I'm sure on my wife, that. That this is. This is what God. This is a beautiful thing to do. Like, I wish I didn't have to do it. Like, I wish this wasn't the reality, but I think it being the reality, there's something sacred about it.

[B]

Yeah. And you. Oh, Bob. See? Beautiful sandwich with spicy mustard. So it's in Daoism, or it might be Chinese then, but I'm pretty sure it's Taoism. Although it references the Tao. Yeah. The great way. So merging with God is not difficult for those who have no preferences. So the bab who isn't thinking about the life he wanted or this or the way it could have been, who's just doing what's happening. You merge into what Christians would call the Kingdom of Heaven, what they would call the Dao.

[A]

Kingdom of God is within you.

[B]

Kingdom of God. Exactly. Precisely. Richard also, he talks about that. He's like, this is a big thing in the west is we think conversion is an intellectual experience. Experience that you and I can, like, talk our way there. But really, it's always an accident. It's always you changing a child that may not want to be changed, or bathing a child that's getting heavier every year or whatever it might be. The joke is we practice to become as accident prone as possible. I love that line. But my favorite, and everybody knows I'm going to say this because it's my favorite Bible verses, and I always say it in the King James. I don't know why, but lest ye become as little children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God, which we mean here and now. So, of course, I felt that way about my. I still feel that way about my daughter. She's splashing in the tub. She's right. She's with a slippery, bubbly, warm fluid substance that none of us understand. You or I are no closer to understanding water just because I know it's two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule. That means dick. That means a lot if you And I are trying to recreate it in a lab and build something. I understand it has its value, but I mean, in the big picture, that is a mystery. That is a swarm of atoms, and we don't understand what's going on. And she is right to play in it, and your daughter is right. And these teachings are so precious. But you know, us, as grown men, would rather sit around and talk about the truth, when the truth is always so much more naked, so much sillier, more playful, more vulnerable, all of the things then it's not neat in the container. That's why I went and had a nice present pee is because you reminded me that, like, it's outside the lines. As much as we want to think we know what's going on, today is Monday and it's 2022 and all that stuff, it's outside the lines. And the profound truth is always going to hit us from the side when we're least expecting it. Because I've had those 4am Rocking Leela, and I'm like, oh, oh, wow, here it is. And it always happens when I stop fighting it.

[A]

Yeah, because you can be like, oh, I just want to go to bed. Allie, why don't you sleep? Or, you know, oh, gosh, she keeps getting up. And I've had those moments. I've had those moments. Of course you have. The, you know, like, thank you, God. Thank you. This is beautiful. She's beautiful.

[B]

Well, buddy, sorry, I have to. My biggest life hack is saying, yes, thank you. Everyone knows I say this all the time, but Leila's been sleeping kind of rough lately, and we've been getting up in the middle of the night. I got up in the middle of the night last night and I've gotten pretty good. I'll say yes, thank you before I'm even out of the bed. It's become a habit. And your brain has no idea what.

[A]

To do with that.

[B]

It completely shifts you to thank everything or God for what's happening. And your brain just goes like, well, fuck, I was going to get all worked up.

[A]

You asked me where prayer is. Where I am now in my prayer life, right? Because that ebbs and flows, right? And I noticed past week, I was on tour last week, and I was nowhere in my prayer life. I take all these theology books or little prayer books. The Catholic. I still have these Catholic prayer. And I take them and sometimes I don't crack them. I don't look at them, of course, and. But one thing I've been really good at is at some Point in the day, just when it strikes me, it's like, Jesus, I trust in you into myself. I say that, I repeat that like, almost like a mantra. And. Or if I'm stressed out, or if I'm worried, or if I have a troubled thought, or if I feel little, if I feel small, if I've done something or said something, that. When I say that, why'd I do that? I'd say, just, Jesus, I trust in you. And that's a prayer.

[B]

And that's a grounding and powerful one that transforms you in real time. That's exactly right. Yes. Thank you. Is a prayer. And it's the prayer I say the most because I do affirmations in the morning. I write them out and I write. I trust the flow. I trust God, I trust myself. But I put capital S, Self. And there's a real. It's not ego. It's not going to. I'm God because I'm not running the show. But when you realize who you are, deepest, deepest, deepest is God. You're like trusting all of this. Even trusting your own death is trusting yourself. Like, who you really are is at the center of all of this. That takes away all of that Freudian, angry dad, drunk dad, God who can't wait to hit you with a belt because you're a bad boy. All of that psychology gets mixed up. And this is Richard, too. We end up making a God that looks like us instead of a God. Instead of the other way around, we should be trying to look like God, which is what? Diverse, self sustaining? Yes. Ending, nurturing, growing, spread. You know, all of that stuff that you see in nature. And we make it like our drunk dads. And you can't blame us. It's such a heavy wound.

[A]

That's. That just goes along with this idea that, that, well, you know, we could have. If, like, I just. We could have had started a game. Like every time, you know, every time we say George Harrison, you eat a cookie or do a shot or something like that. Because again, in one of these interviews I saw George Harrison says, like, why aren't we talking about death? Why aren't we practicing death? We don't want to talk about it. Nobody wants to talk about it. And it's like, that's the, the idea of, like, that. Those affirmations you make in the morning and. Or the prayer, I, I say in the middle of the day. If we can make those meaningful habits, like not, you know, some. Sometimes you just got to go through it. I think, I think the goal that I'd like to get to is where my prayer habit is almost. It's second nature. And it's like brushing your teeth, right? Because I like, I. I slip and you lose that maintenance, I think you. Part of it is building up this muscle memory. So when. When the. Goes down, you've got something to go, you got somewhere to go that. That's familiar, you know? And I think, like, if we take that. We talked about being present being like the key in. In surviving tragedy or experiencing joy. Being present is the key. If you're present, you're going to. You're going to enjoy the ping pong game and you're going to be able to deal with receiving the worst news of your life. If you can be present, and you will be, death will be okay. And that's what Harrison was trying to tell us.

[B]

Another moment. Yeah, that's right. I'm looking at Ram Dass right now. He's on my desk. Not in the astral plane, there's a picture. But the denial of death he talks about when you stop denying death, it frees up all that unconscious energy that you are using to push it away, and it allows you and imbues the present moment with all of this joy that otherwise would have been used to suppress these inevitable things. It's not an error, it's not a mistake. It's what we're here to do. It's what we're. Light, dark, life, death, all this stuff, it's all happening. It's all beautiful. Let's get you out of here because I've taken a lot of your time, but with a couple fun questions. Are you okay with that?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

[B]

Great. I also want to say, man, I really needed this. I needed this chat today. Not every day is am I in the mood. And this, like we were saying, this one fed me. So I'm really glad that we had this time today.

[A]

Thank you for inviting me.

[B]

Of course. Have you ever almost died?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was in. Yeah. I was in a car accident when I was young and somebody was driving and flipped the car and it spun on the hood. But we were all unscathed.

[B]

What. What do you remember of it? Did you. Were you the whole time?

[A]

Yeah. I remember trying to tell the person to slow down. And I remember the car turning. I remember all of it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I remember being in the car with it spinning on the hood. And I remember us, you know, being. Okay. Wow. Yeah.

[B]

With the guy driving. No, no. Was it over after that day?

[A]

It never was. The same again. Yeah, yeah. Never was the same again. And we were young, but many people young, like we were in similar situations, did not survive that. You know, survive things like that. It was really miraculous. And then there are probably like not millions of them, but I've probably had some pretty close calls. I can't. That's the one that you say and remember it. But if I tonight, I'll probably remember six or seven other.

[B]

You know, it's funny that our conversation before this is one of the reasons I like asking that. It's an interesting thing to kind of contemplate and think about. Tell me a name droppy story. I know you work with so many incredible musicians. You were telling me you're about to open for Ringo in Boston.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Tell me first of all, what's wrong with name name like people have really used to be like they're named. But then I thought about it and I was talking to a friend and talking about another friend and the friend said, well, he's really name droppy. Talking about our mutual friend. I was like, I was like, but he's, he really cares about you and he's a great guy. And that made me, that led me to the kind of like, really ponder like, is there anything really wrong with name dropping?

[B]

Like it's when you're using it to be like, I know them so I'm important.

[A]

If you're like, holy, holy crap. Like we were having lunch, dinner and Ringo Starr walked up to our picnic table.

[B]

Yeah, that's a great story.

[A]

That's, you know, it was really cool that, that was a really cool experience. And you know, when you get in a band or like you must experience this, like with what you do for a living, you have experiences like these experiences like this. And then like I got to the point where I wouldn't tell anybody about them. Like we can only talk about them in the band or someone like you, like friends of mine who also experience those experiences on a. On an, I would say regular basis.

[B]

But fear of jealousy or that you'll sound like.

[A]

Sound like a name dropper person.

[B]

Yeah, like a name dropper. Right. Or also just be like my life. Well, I saw you guys at the bowl and David Crosby was backstage. I remember seeing it comes.

[A]

Picture comes up on my phone all the time. I never posted it, but you know how sends you pictures that were me, him and me, David Crosby and Seth. Like, there's a picture we took and I'm like, that was so awesome. That was amazing.

[B]

Does any stick out?

[A]

Go ahead well, one time we played Jimmy Kimmel live and we.

[B]

I think I might have been there.

[A]

We rode back. This woman, Val, rode back with us in our. In our van and we had dinner with Pete Holmes.

[B]

Get the fuck out of here.

[A]

Somewhere in la. And I was like, I almost ruined.

[B]

It by being like, I ruined it. I was there. Wait, Bob, I was there for that. That is so funny. What a great and hilarious and gracious answer. You haven't done the Ringo shows yet, or have you?

[A]

We did this weekend. Yeah.

[B]

And what is he like? Is he still enjoying it?

[A]

81 or 82 and does jumping jacks. He is light on his feet. I mean, he runs out on stage and he runs off the stage and he plays drums like he's 25. Wow. It is exciting to watch him to say, this is possible. This is possible. And he exudes gratitude and joy. And you sense that. And I know he's been through a lot of. A lot of tough things. And you. I just sense that, like, whatever. Because again with the Beatles, like, they were the only four people experienced that. And it was isolating and it was difficult. You know, it was a blessing, but it was also a curse. And they all. They all had things they had to go through in their life after that. And he strikes me as being reconciled with it and grateful for it. And I sense he feels blessed to be doing what he's doing today. So he exudes something beautiful.

[B]

Do they play Octopus's Garden?

[A]

I don't think they actually played it in the set. So it's All Stars, so it's like Colin Hay from Men at Work plays one guitar. The great Steve Lukather, who was in Toto, plays the other, like, probably one of the greatest guitar players in the history of music, this guy. Thriller album. Like, Toto was the band for the Thriller album. Like, we can't forget that. Like, Toto wrote you.

[B]

I never knew that. What?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Incredible. But just so. So they do, like, hold the Line, Rosanna in Africa, and they do the bass player for the average white band. So they do one of those great funky instrumentals. Is it Edgar Winner plays the piano. Johnny Winner passed played guitar. I think Edgar Winter plays piano. If I get that wrong, I'm so sorry. But so they do Free Ride, which everybody knows. Free Ride, Yeah, of course. Frankenstein, that great instrumental Frankenstein.

[B]

Oh, sure. Okay.

[A]

Okay. So it's a great show. It's like the greatest cover band. And then Ringo does, like, photograph and the encores with little help from your friends. And we got to go up there and sing, you know, and it was, you know, I'm convinced, like, we've not won a Grammy, we've won like some other awards. But I think no matter how many records we sell, no matter what we achieve as the Ava brothers, the most cherished memories will be. I'm going to name drop. Being on stage with Bob Dylan at the Grammys, you know, recording with Rick Rubin, being on stage with Bob Weir, being on stage with Ringo. Like these like little things that don't make or break you, but they are the icing on the cake. They're just, they're the beautiful moments that, that you just cherish. Yeah.

[B]

What a great answer. Let me see. I think we're there. Last question. Can you tell me a time in your life when you laughed really, really, really, really hard? Maybe you were a little kid, maybe someone fell down, maybe someone farted. These are the prompts I give. It doesn't have to be a great or a classy story. I'm just saying.

[A]

No, this. So. So my son's. He'll turn 11 tomorrow. And I have great memories from being that age or around about there. And you get a best friend, like that's kind of when you get a best friend, you know, and having your friend come over your house and you're just this funniest. The stupidest thing makes you laugh to where you're crying and you got snot coming out of your nose and you can't catch your breath. And so I have like moments, memories of those things like that. And then like. But similar to that, when, when we started the band, Scott was. Was dating his. His now wife in Greenville, North Carolina. And so we would play there frequently and often. The end. The week ended with. With me and Seth driving back together and we were driving my. In my truck, my Toyota Tacoma pickup truck. And we would just. It was that. That adolescent humor that we would just come up with things and we would just be laughing so hard that we were crying and we experienced a little bit of that this weekend and to be, you know, and, and that. So, so I won't. I can't say a specific moment. I can think of many moments.

[B]

No, you're talking about all that.

[A]

The feeling like that feeling of just like, this is so stupid. But for some reason this is where my humor is. This is, this is where my.

[B]

This is one of the things that makes me grateful because when I'm touring and I'm with an opener and we're laughing, there's a parallel to those Sleepovers you had when you were your son's age. And that is something to be Ringo Star level grateful for. What a cool answer. I love that. It made me think of one. Maybe this will make you laugh. When I interviewed Seth and Scott, it was in Scott's studio. And I had met Scott before. Yes. But I was walking into his studio for the first time and the first thing I saw was a giant painting of him naked. It was a newt. And we both. I mean, it was a great painting and there's no body shame here, but I mean, it is sort of like. And here I am naked. And we were both sort of looking at it and I went. There was a beat of silence and I just went, did you fluff before that? You fluff it up a little bit. And he went, oh, yeah, you gotta fluff up before painting.

[A]

And we just laughed so hard.

[B]

But it was like you had to address it.

[A]

You can't.

[B]

Look, if there was a naked painting of me right there, I'd have to be like, bob, thanks for doing the podcast. That's me naked. I did, you know, I tossed it around just a little bit before I did it. And then, and then we can do the interview. But that came to mind as you were talking about laughing with those guys. And it was a great.

[A]

They're great. They're great for that.

[B]

I laugh.

[A]

Yeah. And they're great for making funny lyrics to their songs and other songs. And I believe it. And they're no ham. Right. There's, there's, there's just. I really appreciate those guys for. For being like that. For being like that.

[B]

I believe it.

[A]

It's special.

[B]

What you guys have is special and what you're creating is special. And I really think this conversation is going to hit people in a really hard to reach part of the heart. And I'm so glad that Josh Church. The wonderful Josh Church.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Put us in touch with his idea.

[A]

Yeah. Just so he could listen. So talk about the ego. So selfish. So he could listen to this conversation.

[B]

Selfish son of a bitch. No, he made it happen and I'm so glad he did. Bob, would you say keep it crispy? It's how we end. The guest says the catchphrase and then we'll be out.

[A]

Keep it crispy. Do you need another one?

[B]

No, I loved it.

[A]

Keep it crispy.

[B]

I love that you think we needed another one. It was perfect. Thank you so much, my friend. I will absolutely see you guys next time you're through la and maybe we'll go out to dinner again. But either way, I'll be there. Just for the church. Just for the church.

[A]

I'll be. I'll be name dropping it after we.

[B]

Do it to me. To only to me.