Father Greg Boyle Returns

Summary

"You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes"

Episode: Father Greg Boyle Returns

Date: September 10, 2025
Guest: Father Greg Boyle

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Episode Overview

In this rich and heartfelt conversation, Pete Holmes welcomes Father Greg Boyle—Jesuit priest, founder of Homeboy Industries, and author of several lauded books, including his latest, Cherished Belonging. The episode is a profound exploration of spirituality, compassion, community, and the deep human longing for belonging, tenderness, and transformation. Through playful banter, vulnerable storytelling, and honest questions, Pete and Father Greg delve into the paradoxes of faith, the pain of othering, the practice of mercy, and the daily work of keeping the heart “wet” and open. Their dialogue is filled with insights from personal experience, theological musings, and memorable stories from Homeboy Industries and beyond.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Wounds of Being Seen and Misunderstood ([02:14]–[05:35])

• Pete opens up about being wounded by years of feeling misunderstood as a comedian in Christian circles—torn between his vocation and spiritual life.
• Father Greg and Pete discuss balance between touring/professional obligations and family, acknowledging the intentionality behind their choices and the privilege of choosing space.
• Quote:
  Pete: “I go out once a month…one weekend I’m gone, but most people just go like, ‘I could never do that.’” ([04:29])
  Father Greg: “Except you and I know that it kind of has more intentionality than not…you hear ‘one a month,’ you go, ‘Good for you.’” ([04:46])

2. The Practice and Effects of Softening & Openness ([06:51]–[09:44])

• Greg describes his morning practice (prayer, reading, reflection) and how it fosters gentleness and “spaciousness” in the midst of chaos.
• The power of intentional spiritual practices: reading and reflecting softens the heart, helps maintain compassion in daily encounters.
• Quote:
  Father Greg: “Reading somebody who you like…and then you put it down, you go, wow, I feel open, softened, ready.” ([07:38])
  Pete: “How close we were to love…we’re so close. But when we’re tight, I feel so far.” ([07:53])

3. Anchoring Ourselves in Tenderness & The Mystical Filter ([12:01]–[16:20])

• Anchoring daily life in cherishing and tenderness through spiritual rituals, breathing, reading, and community.
• The ‘mystical filter’: Interpreting scripture through a lens of love and intuition, filtering out images of a wrathful God that don’t resonate with experience.
• Quote:
  Father Greg: “Once you know the God of love, you fire all the other gods. That’s part of the filtering—to say no, I don’t believe in that God ever.” ([16:09])
  Pete: “A shepherd in a field would know: ‘This doesn’t sound like God to me.’” ([16:48])

4. Accessible Spirituality vs. Religious Elitism ([18:35]–[21:44])

• Faith as lived experience, not expertise—confidence in “the gift of the lens” to everyone, not just scholars.
• Story: Socorro, an uneducated parishioner, confidently rejects wrathful images of God—“God is not like that”—highlighting the accessible nature of divine intuition.

5. Mercy vs. Forgiveness & The Parable of the Prodigal Son ([23:56]–[25:53])

• Mercy as fundamental: Mercy exceeds forgiveness—unconditional, abundant, initiates relationship without prerequisites.
• Reframing atonement: Challenging tradition that sees Jesus as a sacrifice to appease an angry God. Emphasizing a “change of mind” about God, not God changing about us.
• Quote:
  Father Greg: “Mercy is the father running to the kid and saying, I don’t want to hear your fake-ass apology. I love you too much. You’re home.” ([24:24])
  Pete: “There’s no atonement. The Prodigal Son remembers that he’s his father’s child. That’s it.” ([25:15])

6. Othering, Inclusion, and the Temptation to Divide ([29:05]–[32:57])

• The “hard sell” of inclusion and belonging: The Gospel is subversive because it dissolves boundaries, making belonging unconditional.
• Human tendency to create “us and them”—roots in marketing, tribalism, fear; how religious institutions profit from indictment rather than invitation.
• Quote:
  Father Greg: “The church had a choice: indictment or invitation. Indictment filled the pews…but we didn’t trust love.” ([30:18])
  Pete: “There’s this unbearably delicious temptation to other people.” ([29:47])

7. The Power of Cherishing and Community “Dosing” ([42:36]–[47:18])

• No one can do this work alone: At Homeboy Industries, transformation comes from collective “dosing” of affirmation, tenderness, and attention.
• Small gestures matter: A simple text, a smile, a word of recognition can be the nudge that keeps someone moving forward.
• Quote:
  Father Greg: “Everybody’s giving a dose…If enough people do that, then I think people feel held.” ([43:30])
  Father Greg: “It has a cumulative tenderizing effect on people.” ([47:18])

8. Keeping the Heart “Wet”—Joy, Tenderness, and Relational Practice ([49:45]–[52:52])

• “Wet” and “juicy” as metaphors for aliveness: The difference between brittle/dry and flourishing/joyful is openness to compassion.
• Generosity as a clue to identity: When generous or loving, we feel most truly ourselves (cf. Rupert Spira).
• Quote:
  Pete: “When you’re generous…don’t you feel like your real self? And aren’t you compelled to give it away?” ([52:13])
  Father Greg: “Juicy is not a fleeting happiness. It’s joy.” ([50:45])

9. Non-Duality and No Otherness ([53:10]–[55:45], [106:21])

• Widening the circle: Living as if there are no outsiders, emphasizing non-dual belonging rather than dualistic separation.
• Boundaries and timeouts exist, but always with the intention of eventual return, not rejection.
• Quote:
  Father Greg: “Once you walk with them, you’re by definition saying, no, they belong to us. They’re not outside this circle.” ([54:03])

10. The Trap of Retribution and Healthy Responses to Harm ([62:17]–[65:57])

• Cultural myth of retribution: American stories center on avenging, punishing, and violence as “strength.”
• Retribution is unhealthy: While human, it isn’t the hallmark of adult wholeness—“mean and cruel is just mean and cruel.”
• Quote:
  Father Greg: “Wanting payback is human. But you couldn’t make the case that it was healthy. Retribution is not the endeavor of a healthy adult.” ([64:06])

11. Transforming Wounds, Not Rescuing ([66:26]–[68:39])

• We don’t have enemies, we have injuries. The key is noticing wounds and being tender to ourselves and others—transformation is communal, not individual rescue.
• Transformation “happens,” it’s not imposed—Homeboy Industries creates irresistible, cherishing spaces.
• Quote:
  Pete: “We don’t have hate, we have wounds…That heals me.” ([65:57])
  Father Greg: “Once people enter it and everybody’s dosing, it’s a system…irresistible, where people go, I was cherished there.” ([68:39])

12. The Longing for Belonging & Welcoming Home ([69:14]–[70:41])

• Religion addresses longing, not just belief or duty. People long for home, welcome, and safety—a “welcome home” at Disneyland or Homeboy touches something universal.
• Quote:
  Father Greg: “People long for that. People long to be at home. People long to be welcomed, included, seen, safe.” ([69:35])

13. Practices of Attention, Effort, and the Humanity of Jesus ([76:21]–[114:31])

• Intentionality in relationship: Attention, even in short bursts, can be transformative—dropping everything for 45 seconds with a loved one is everything.
• Jesus as fully human: Not always at his best, practiced at love, made effortful choices—felt annoyance, asked “Who touched me?” out of real yearning, not omniscience.
• Quote:
  Father Greg: “It has to be fast. State your business. Yes. Check the box. Try to be as attentive and loving and kind and beholding and affirming and prizing and high regard. But this is not going to last long because I have too many people…” ([77:18])
  Father Greg: “I think there are a lot more examples in the gospel where he’s not at his best. He didn’t catch himself. For me, it’s always about relational wholeness.” ([112:40])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Mercy and Love:
  “God became one of us so that the love could become more tender.”
  —Father Greg Boyle ([25:58])

• On ‘Mystical Filter’:
  “Once you know the God of love, you fire all the other gods.”
  —Father Greg Boyle ([16:09])

• On Belonging:
  “Inclusion is what are you including them in? Belonging—if you’re not including them into a belonging space, then I don’t even know what it means.”
  —Father Greg Boyle ([29:05])

• On Transformation:
  “Transformation happens there. That once people kind of enter it and everybody’s dosing, it’s a system—so compelling, irresistible.”
  —Father Greg Boyle ([68:39])

• On Practice and Realness:
  “You want to be practiced…you want to work at it. Otherwise you fall into the places where we all fall into.”
  —Father Greg Boyle ([110:48])

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Important Timestamps

• 00:15 – Pete introduces Father Greg Boyle and his newest book Cherished Belonging.
• 02:14 – Pete shares his wound around “balancing” spiritual and comedic life.
• 06:51 – Discussion of “softening,” openness, and spiritual practice.
• 12:01 – Anchoring in tenderness; cherishing others like family.
• 15:38 – The “mystical filter” for engaging scripture.
• 23:56 – Mercy vs. forgiveness and the Parable of the Prodigal Son.
• 29:05 – Belonging, nonviolence, and the hard sell of unconditional love.
• 42:36 – Parasitic friendships, boundaries, and communal “dosing” at Homeboy.
• 49:45 – Keeping the heart “wet” and juicy: joy, compassion, and Ram Dass.
• 53:10 – Non-duality in Greg’s work: no outsiders, no otherness.
• 62:17 – The “water” of cultural retribution, violence, and systemic myths.
• 66:26 – We don’t have enemies, we have injuries; healing through inclusion.
• 69:14 – The longing to be home, welcomed, and loved.
• 77:18 – Balancing attentiveness with practical constraints at Homeboy.
• 110:48 – The importance of effortful, practiced kindness—even for spiritual teachers.
• 112:40 – The real humanity of Jesus: effort, annoyance, yearning for connection.

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Tone & Originality

The episode is warm, funny, and deeply honest, rooted in Pete’s curiosity and Father Greg’s gentle wisdom. Both lean into their vulnerabilities, modeling a kind of “tender dialogue” where doubt, laughter, and tears are welcome. The tone is at once playful and profound, balancing big spiritual questions with concrete examples of community, justice, and day-to-day struggles. Father Greg’s language is humble, approachable, and often sprinkled with self-deprecating humor; Pete’s is earnest, animated, and sometimes irreverent—together, their rapport makes potentially dense topics accessible and resonant.

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Closing

Pete expresses deep gratitude for Father Greg’s work and wisdom, noting how much more they could have covered together. Father Greg reiterates (jokingly) that he’s really done writing books—though Pete and history suggest otherwise.

Father Greg signs off:

"Keep it crispy." ([115:41])

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This episode is a poignant primer on mercy, mysticism, and making space for others (and ourselves!)—reminding us that even one small act of cherishing can change a life.

Transcript

[A]

You made it with. You made it with. You made it with. Oh, yeah, you made it weird. Yes, you did. You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[B]

What's happening, weirdos? This is an exciting one for me because this is one of my absolute heroes in my life. One of my great teachers and a dear friend and the author of now it's four. Four of my absolute favorite books in the world. If you are looking for a book that. It's a great audiobook by the way, that opens your heart and just feels. Makes you feel connected and there's deep stuff, touching stuff, but it also just is brimming with hope and joy. His new book is called Cherished Belonging. The others are tattoos on the heart, Barking to the choir, something like that. And the whole language. I'm pretty sure it's barking to the choir. Anyway, they're all great. Look up Greg Boyle books. And the newest one is his best one. It's called Cherished Belonging.

[A]

Absolutely love it.

[B]

Check it out. So happy that you're here. Not much to plug up.

[A]

Top.

[B]

I'm gonna be in St. Louis this weekend if you're hearing this the day it came out, followed by Los Angeles. We have Cleveland, we have Miami, we have Chicago, we have Pittsburgh, we have New York, New York, we have New Jersey, we have Milwaukee, we have Brea, and we have Royal Oak, Michigan. All of those are available on petehomes.com hope to see you out on the road. And thanks to everybody who came out to Spokane. I now know how to say it. It's Spokane, not Spokane. Anyway, also one very earnest and sincere thing to plug up here. Homeboy Industries, which is the organization that Father Greg founded, is an incredible charity. Whenever I do any sort of charity work, it's to raise money for Homeboy. So please consider making a donation. Even if it's a small donation, you can go to homeboy industries.org. the work they do is life changing and just unbelievably beautiful. So please consider making a donation to Homeboy Industries. And in the meantime, enjoy my chat with the wonderful Father Greg Boyle. Get into it. Can we start?

[A]

Do you mind? It's funny that you asked me about.

[B]

Touring because my whole life I've been very uptight. I wasn't planning on bringing this up to you and obviously I want to start by saying how great it is to see you, but when I talk about touring, I have a real wound there. Like, it's weird. Specifically, when I started out to be a comedian, this pastor at my church asked me how I could. What Was the word he used, like, justify or somehow balance. Being a comedian and being a Christian, which of course, was really upsetting to me. And then years later, I think I'm so complete now and done all this healing. I'm with our friend Richard. Richard and this priest that we were with, who I have no bad feelings towards this priest. He just touched on a wound. I mentioned that I'm a comedian. And the first thing he said was, when do you see your family? And I just, like, saw, read. It really is a testament to how much I love Richard and how much I trust Richard. Because I just got mad at the guy. Like, I didn't. You must deal with this a lot. Like people on their best behavior. It's like, there's a police officer on the highway. So we're all like. I was just like. Like, really kind of.

[A]

So it was more about time spent away rather than content of the comedic life.

[B]

You're right. The first one is a content story, but, like, the questioning of, like, how you can trigger the whole thing began this. This, like, this trend of clergy seemingly going, well, if you tour, you must never see your family. And I just. I mean, I didn't, like, lose my. I don't think anybody in the restaurant was like, oh, they're having a fight. But I. I did let it out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you specifically, and Richard obviously, have just been so healing in that regard. It's just. I don't know.

[A]

Well, in what way? So, like, so to kind of. You have the balance.

[B]

I do have the balance. You understand that I say I go out once a month. You go, good for you. I believe what you said, something like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you travel. You know what it's like. So you hear one a month.

[A]

What if I say here, balance. So I. Yeah.

[B]

What if I said I'm home three weekends a month? That's pretty great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And one weekend I'm gone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But most people just go like, oh, I could never do that. Or they start kind of like, I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. Except you and I know that it kind of has more intentionality than not. You know that you.

[B]

From whose side?

[A]

From your side. You go, Monday, I do the podcast, and Tuesday, I do emails, and Wednesday, you know, and then I would have thought it was a lot more than that.

[B]

You were on the road more sometimes because things are kind of slowing down in show business. I'll go out twice a month. It really depends. And that when I say that, I don't say that with burden. I go, what a privilege. That I go, oh, things are tight in this area. Let's tour a little more. You know, that is an incredible gift. But even that. I don't know, man. I couldn't. I could try to guess the psychology of why people are kind of, like, coming at it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, like, I. I pro. I'm almost certainly wrong.

[A]

Yeah. No, I don't. I don't think you are. I think it makes. It makes sense. Yeah.

[B]

But, yes, I'm really happy to see you. I just. It worked out that I finished your fourth book on the drive in. I. I wasn't planning on that. I wasn't trying to.

[A]

How did you read and drive?

[B]

I just. I just risk it all. I just risk it all.

[A]

Glance fur. Honestly, next paragraph.

[B]

When I look in windshields, it's 90%.

[A]

Of people are looking at their phone. It's crazy.

[B]

So I wouldn't be in good company. It is scary, but I listened to it. I think you're a great performer. I think you did a great job reading all of the books and only got better and really just found your voice more and more. So the newest one, like, the. The Greg Boyle style, it's like a style. Like you've defined a style, and. And once you sync up with that, which is very easy. What a pleasure. I just love the book, and I just so happened to finish it, and I thought it was wonderful. Wonderful. And what I wanted to start with if I. I didn't map it out too much. But I was like, I listened to your work to open my heart. I'm in a great mood, I think, because. Because I was like, it unlocks something or it lubricates something or it softens something.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And that seems to be kind of what the book is about. It's what you're talking, like, how quickly we can be nudged towards more openness, more expansiveness, more gentleness, tenderness. And even just saying those words sometimes.

[A]

Reminds us of ourselves, but it's also kind of. It's not like me or something, or it's like if the minute you do something like that. So we have a mutual friend, Mira, by Star. I'm reading her a book that she wrote a long time ago, God of Love. But she's asked me to write a forward for kind of a new thing. So I'm going through it again, you know, and I was this morning, and I thought, it does the same. It does. It softens is a good verb.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because all of a sudden, you're softened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, like your own practice does that. But. But reading somebody who you like and you go, oh, that's interesting. And then you put it down, you go, wow. Yeah. I feel open, softened, ready.

[B]

So close.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We were. I'm talking, like Yoda. But how close we were to love.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We're so close.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But when we're tight, when I'm like, a little bit off, I feel. So far.

[A]

Yeah, so far. But it's not like you're. Now I'm going to live these words in particular somewhere. Yeah. No, it's just a way of kind of aligning.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, your heart to a kind of way that's. You want to kind of steadily live.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you don't always. You're not always able to stay there because you're. Because I was just in the office right now, so it was chaotic and people are demanding things. But it helped me that I had spent the morning in my own prayer. But also with Mirabai. It brought me to this, you know, kind of awareness of everybody's coming in and their hair is on fire and they're unreasonable and. And that's okay. You know, it's just kind of their wound.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Being witnessed.

[B]

Yeah. You can kind of. Well, there's a certain solidarity to it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Like, I hear you just did it. You were like, it's not me. You're sharing how you're staying. Spacious.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As well.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And I think that's really valuable. And you're not coming down the mountain.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. With tablets. But spacious is good, you know, because that. Then it's. You have room for people. But when you're tight and you're constricted, then you don't have room for people because, you know, it's. You're on a limited kind of scope. And you go, I don't have time. You know, this is really annoying. That's so unreasonable, what you're asking me right now. But I was aware that I wasn't so much like that this morning because I've been gone, too. So I really delighted in people, in a way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That people who are there every day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are going. We've had it with this guy. He's driving us crazy. So I can come in and be a little bit more.

[B]

But that's a gift.

[A]

Spacious.

[B]

Going back to me, going on the road.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If we had no financial needs whatsoever, I would still want to go out once a month and do shows. And Val knows this and Leland knows this. I just come back. It's not a vacation. It's actually pretty stressful, to be honest. Like, parts of it, you just realize you're very alert. You know, you're in your hotel, and you realize you've just kind of been sitting there, kind of like, getting ready for something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's not like going out and seeing the sights, but when I come back, I'm a better. Because of that space away. So I have. Is that. I don't want to call it.

[A]

But you're also kind of in. You know, you're FaceTiming your.

[B]

Yeah. Staying in touch.

[A]

Staying in touch. And people are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're able to kind of maintain that in a way that was inconceivable 40 years ago.

[B]

I know.

[A]

We couldn't really do it that, like, we can do it now.

[B]

I know. It's really amazing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that my daughter is growing up with FaceTime.

[A]

Yeah. And just being like, of course, in zoom or whatever. Yeah.

[B]

You can have a whole little hang.

[A]

Is she like, first grade?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Right.

[A]

Yeah. She's about to be seven to go into first grade.

[B]

She's going into first grade.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We made the choice to keep her in kindergarten.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which. Which people always say, that's the right choice.

[A]

Oh, yeah. No, it's smart be the older kid. Yeah, that's right.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, it was.

[A]

It makes a difference.

[B]

My. My father put my brother in little league, and God love my dad, he just did what he. He thought he was going, like, put him in the. Let's say it was 11 to 15 instead of the six to. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

10. And he was 11 or 10 and a half, and he put him in the bigger group. My brother and I are still like that. That really was a big trip for my brother.

[A]

It really blew him.

[B]

You caught me being a good person for you. I was gonna say it really him up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let's not.

[A]

It can. It can. It did that. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, and. And I don't think my dad. My dad was like, you can do it. That was his spirit. And then suddenly you're with these kids that have been playing ball for 10 years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm curious about. We're talking about Mirabai taking a moment in the morning. I think people are probably. I'm interested in how you anchor yourself in tenderness. Because one of my ways is by reading and listening specifically to your books. I have other ways. But, you know, there are moments where, like, I wrote this down in my notes. I was like, I obviously cherish my daughter. We're all trying to Cherish everyone with the ferocity that I cherish my daughter. And sometimes I have to ask her to brush her teeth 30 times, and it breaks me. Like, it literally. My daughter doesn't know the sound of me yelling, but she does know the sound of me being like, baby, I can't. I can't. Like, she's seen me go like.

[A]

Like, just like.

[B]

Like, just kind of like taking like a. Like a tender, broken breath, you know? And I'm. I'm just curious what. What you're doing to stay anchored in. In cherishing and in tenderness, all these things that. These words that you and I both love.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, you. You end up trying to, you know, begin your day. We always think that way, you know, like, you're good to go, that, you know, I just spent time sitting, lit the candle, you know, breathing, and you go, well, that's it for the day. And it carries you for exactly 15 minutes in the office. And then it's like, people are really not at their best selves, you know?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then you don't want to be taken to that place, you know, where you're annoyed or you indicate, gosh, I don't have time for you, you know, so anyway, how do you keep it constant? How do you keep it delighting? How do you breathe in the spirit that delights in your being and then breathe it out? And that's why I think you connected to your breathing to mantras, to prepare yourself. He's about to walk into my office. So I look at the first two hours this morning, and it was just nonstop, and it was hair on fire. Yeah. And it was intractable problems. And I have no idea how to. To really help here except to be as spacious as. As you can be, you know, and then. And then, you know, they feel like maybe he listened. And. And it always ends with, you know, kind of a hug and a blessing and. And let's see what we can. So you try to do the next helpful thing, the next step, but I get up really early, and I do my own little practice, and I try to read, and then I reflect on the readings of the day. And I send an email to this guy, Sergio Ohomey, and he writes back.

[B]

That's like a practical.

[A]

Every day. Yeah.

[B]

What do you send?

[A]

I send what you read, what I read. And no, we both read the same thing because we get it in the email. The readings of the day is what you would say, kind of in Catholic circles. And then. And then, like, there was some Old Testament thing that was kind of like a little too vengeful, angry God. Yeah. I'm not buying it. And so he's the same way. And. And so we kind of. He talks always about the mystical filter. How do you read this? Where you. Let's. Let's glean the stuff that makes sense. You know, I just want to show.

[B]

You that I have mystical filter written down because it was one of my favorite.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Things people get jammed up.

[A]

Yeah. They kind of go, oh, my God. Well, there it is, you know, it's on page 49. I have to believe it. I go, no, this is kind of. This is people doing the best they could, I think. And they're human now. There's sometimes when, you know, scripture is really inspired.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Except when it's not, you know, and sometimes it's not. You just kind of go, yeah, I don't believe in that God.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and then as everybody says, you know, once, you know, the God of love, you fire all the other gods. So you. That's part of the filtering, is to say, no, I don't believe in that God ever.

[B]

Right. And wouldn't you. I think we're in agreement here that there's sort of a divine intuition, or when we talk about this lens, it's like a gift that you have. This doesn't resonate. You know what I mean? It's not an intellectual intuition. Like, this doesn't line up with trinitarian or whatever.

[A]

No, no. But it's accessible, completely accessible to anybody. It has nothing to do with if. If you have a doctorate in scripture.

[B]

Right. Like a shepherd in a field would know. This doesn't sound like God to me. It doesn't sound right to me. This isn't aligned with what I see around.

[A]

Well, like today was. I guess it was mana manna in the desert. And their. They're complaining and God's sort of pissed off at them because they want meat to eat, you know, and then he's getting pissed. And I go, yeah, that's people trying to figure out. I mean, total human projection onto God.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it isn't always. Sometimes it's. You can find the one thing about being fed, sometimes it's really quite out there. You have. You have to stretch.

[B]

Right. That's your yoga. That's Catholic.

[A]

But even like. Yeah, but there was also the. Yes, stretch. Yeah, exactly. Yoga. There we go. But it's like the gospel was the. So John the Baptist has just been killed, and so Jesus is impacted by it. So he wants to Go away, because he loved him. And then he sees the people have all heard, he's in the neighborhood, and he's moved with compassion. I mean, it's really quite wonderful. And then it's, how do we feed these people? Well, what you have is plenty. You feed them yourselves. So it's beautiful. So then you filter stuff out. Maybe there's stuff where you go, that's weird, Right? Then you go, okay, well, ignore the weird. This is pretty good, right? What you have is enough. Feed them yourselves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He felt. He was grieving for a friend, and he felt compassion for these people who were broken and wounded. That's enough. And now if there's something alarming in there that derails you and makes you say, whoa, why would you focus on that? That's the filter.

[B]

Yeah. It's interesting, though. I mean, like, when I grew up Protestant, obviously, so we were the ones that got the Bibles, and the Catholics were the ones that had the priests interpreting the Bible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I believe goes back to literacy. I don't even know. Who cares?

[A]

I think probably something like.

[B]

Yeah, but you're saying something very radical in that way, which is like, we have the gift of this lens. Yeah, but don't you. I mean, I'm with you. I can hear some sort of council forming going. This is dangerous. Like. Like to religion.

[A]

Yeah, well, maybe it is. I mean, it keeps it elite. If. If. If that's, you know, keeps it elite. It keeps it elite. It says only the people here are the people who can interpret. And we're sitting at their feet and they're telling me what this is. And instead of saying, what if there's something that's accessible to everybody, Whether you went to Harvard or you really can't read, but you can hear, you know, And I think there is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I think it's the healthy. Whole person can hear Scripture and say, yeah, that doesn't connect. A wrathful God doesn't connect with me. Right. Not. And I don't believe. I think God is too busy loving us to be pissed at us. Okay, next. But it says it right here. I don't know why it says it right there, but I just know God is not like that.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

I remember a woman who. Somebody had women in the parish who only spoke Spanish and somebody who could read, and most of the women couldn't read. And she had some thing about an appearance of Mary on a tortilla. You know, when they flipped it and there was Mary and they, you know, let's build A church here or something, you know, and then it was really kind of a hateful, violent, wrathful. If you don't get your act together. And there was a woman who since died Socorro. And she goes, you know, I can't read that pamphlet. You have. And I've never went to school, but all I can say is, Dios no es a si. God is not like that. And. And she was so confident in that. And everybody, everybody looked, you know, and it's like. But the woman with the pamphlet was the most educated person in the room. She. She was moderately bilingual, but she had been to school. She could read Spanish and Socorro couldn't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But she knew. She knew she didn't have to have any priests validate.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And at that point, I was. Could barely speak Spanish. But so I had to just kind. I didn't know how to address this woman who was derailing our whole meeting by saying, hell. You know, hell in a handbasket or whatever that expression is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Is that what it is?

[B]

Hell in a handbasket?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I guess you're gonna go to hell in a hand basket.

[B]

I don't know what that.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know.

[B]

Have you been chopped up?

[A]

How are you in this tiny basket? Maybe it's a large basket.

[B]

It may be a huge. Hand baskets used to be hu. Carried more in the old.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. All their laundry.

[B]

Yeah. That. Would you say I. I'm okay.

[A]

But that transcended people's education.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Their access to scripture scholarship.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or sitting at the feet of somebody who knows scripture. No, it's kind of like, no, that's not the God I know. That's what you want, right? You want people to feel confident in that where they go, yeah, what you have is enough to know the God of love. And we have kind of fucked people over, you know, by saying, you know, I know the scripture and this is what the scripture says.

[B]

I guess what I was getting at, and I don't even love this area, so maybe we'll move away from it. But like the concern that if we teach people the mystical filter. What am I representing right now? I'm just saying if we say, okay, you have the mystical filter and I have the mystical filter, you could make lots and lots of different. Which we have types of Christianity, you know, there might be the angry one here. And my mystical filter says that God is rageful or whatever it might be. You see what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah. Except that the range is not so wide or so detailed. It's kind of basically, God is love or God's a dick. You know, I mean. I mean. But so it's not like. It's not. It's not a fine tooth comb. It's kind of. Yeah, I don't know. I don't really believe in that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's not. It's more broad brush than tiny little brushes, you know, because. And that's what's helpful about it, I think, because then it's. God is love. Merciful. Mercy upon mercy upon mercy. That's who God is.

[B]

Didn't we talk about that? God doesn't have mercy. God is mercy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, God doesn't love you. You are God's love. Like, we are the unfolding of God's love.

[A]

And mercy is good because mercy is really larger than where we get stuck. Like forgiveness. I think I might have written about that.

[B]

You did? Look, it's on a. Post it over there. Forgiveness is overrated. I think I just wrote, mercy is where it's at.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because forgiveness acknowledges.

[A]

Forgiveness waits, you know, Waits, you know, what do you have to say? You know, and it's like, you know, you apologize, but. But mercy, it's. It's the father running to the kid and. And say, I don't want to hear your fake ass apology. I love you too much. You're home. I thought you were dead.

[B]

This is the prodigal son.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Before he reaches one of my favorite parts.

[A]

Yeah. The fact that he runs to him.

[B]

Runs. I know.

[A]

You know, and it's. And he doesn't fold his arm and say, tell me first what you need to say.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know. Which is what we would fully expect.

[B]

Well, people who listen to this podcast know I say this all the time, but I'd love to hear your. Your take on what I'm about to say. And I'll say it really quickly. In that story, there's no atonement. There's no. The prodigal son remembers that he's his father's child. I could cry.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He just remembers who he is. And he goes home. He doubts he's with the pigs. He's unclean. He's lost everything. But the father, never. And he says, you are always with me and everything I have is yours. But we've sort of turned Jesus into the guy who finds the prodigal son. Says, I know your father's a madman, and he will demand blood, but I'll let him kill me. And this somehow pleases God.

[A]

Like, yeah, I don't.

[B]

Right. I Feel like we're aligned here.

[A]

Oh, yeah, definitely.

[B]

God is mad at us. We murder his son and he goes, we're good now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't understand.

[A]

Well, I don't embrace that. I mean, I don't know. Maybe that's somewhere out there in the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But I don't find it that helpful, you know, because I. Because I think God became one of us so that. That the love could become more tender. And that's kind of the point of Jesus. So all the atonement stuff, were you raised with that completely?

[B]

Yeah. 100%.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was the point. In fact, I just visited a group of Catholics and I won't tell you why. I was with a bunch of Catholics. I was very excited to talk to them, and we were hanging out and kind of talking about this stuff, and then we got very quickly to original sin and the second coming and atonement, and I was like, oh, no. Like, I realized I hadn't had that conversation in a really long time.

[A]

And. And that was a Catholic group.

[B]

Yeah. Was it? That sounds very Protestant.

[A]

Yeah. It does not feel kind of like we're. I mean, it's there.

[B]

Yeah. But we really put a fine point on.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But like, the. The idea of atonement, the blood of Jesus cleaning us and all this stuff. There's a Richard Rohr line where he says, Jesus didn't die. Died to change God's mind about us. He died to change our mind about God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I'm like, there he is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In our suffering.

[A]

Yeah. That's okay. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Wait, what is it?

[A]

I like that you like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But you. You say in your book, you talk about, like, in ptsd, Right. And I. I believe I have some ptsd. It's never post. It's never post traumatic stress. It's moving with your wound. I'm paraphrasing. With curiosity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The way that Jesus moved with his wounds with curiosity and openness and that, like, we're not going to like, tap a cane and drop it.

[A]

It's never post. It's never after.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Ongoing. It's with you. It.

[B]

Right. And isn't that you move with it. Isn't that sort of. We have this. I share it. An interest. I don't know if I'd say a fascination, but with Jesus and the cross and the walk up to all of that resonates with us. The symbol of this faith is a suffering God, man.

[A]

Yeah. And we.

[B]

And that speaks to us as a symbol. It Resonates, we go.

[A]

I don't know why it isn't for me. Is it for you at all?

[B]

I mean, that symbol.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have no crucifixes in my house. Yeah, that's what you mean.

[A]

Yeah. No, I, Yeah.

[B]

It'S not.

[A]

Yeah, it's not. You know, because I think in the end, you know, take up your cross, for example, is, you know, it's not about, Here's a guarantee that this is going to be painful, but it's just an invitation to follow. So then you focus on what are the things that matter, you know, to Jesus, you know, and what are those things? Well, I always say inclusion, non violence, unconditional loving kindness, compassion, acceptance. These are the things that he took seriously. Yeah. And then you can't go wrong. Although I heard the other day somebody say, we don't say inclusion, we say belonging. And I thought, well, I don't know, it's just words, I guess, but inclusion is. What are you including them in? Yeah, belonging.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I think if you're not including them into a belonging space, then I don't even know what it means.

[B]

Can we agree that this. And I've had experiences where I really feel like I've tasted the ineffable. This, this, this expansive field. I, I've told the story where I'm having this conversation almost with God and being like, but you don't even know that I exist. You're, you're oneness. You can't know me. Subject to object. You're just everything. Do you love me? Like, how could you love me? And it was like, that's like asking the ocean if you'll get this wet or this is what I do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But okay, so on one hand, the gospel, the good news is the most compelling thing in the world. Inclusion, belonging, tenderness, kindness, all of this. But on the other hand, it's kind of the hardest cell in the world because there's no boundary. There's no border, there's no flag, there's no tribe. Do you see what I'm getting at? It's like it is exactly what we want and we resist it because there's this unbearably delicious temptation to other people.

[A]

Exactly. That's the issue. The other part, because then rather than. That's why I think the church, it had a choice, you know, it was indictment or invitation, but indictment filled the pews, you know, that got, you know, you're gonna go to hell if you don't come to church or whatever, or put money in the Collection basket. And then we didn't trust. That's kind of our current problem. I think we don't trust love. We think love is kind of soft. How are we going to handle immigration? You know, if we're just loving, you know, and if Paul says love never fails and we take him at his word, then love never fails. So we lack total confidence in that because people will be soft. People won't go to church. I'm in the Catholic tradition. You know, it was all these things you had to do, and that's the indictment. If you don't do them, you know, it's better sales.

[B]

It's better sales.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We put a clock on it. You're going to die.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Something's going to happen when you die.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

One of them is good, one of them is bad, and we have the answer.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

It's just good marketing.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I know that sounds very condescending, but maybe they.

[A]

Maybe they could have done this other thing where inclusion, nonviolence, unconditional love and kindness, compassion and acceptance. Jesus, these things matter to him. Go for it. That's where the joy is. My joy, yours, your joy complete. Go for it. But we didn't do that. We did the exact opposite, but. Which insists on othering. You started to say othering. It insists on having a them, those who are in line and those who aren't, you know, and so then that. That sets us up.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then your. Part of you is in line. Part of you isn't. Part of you is sinful.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I don't really use that language because I don't think it. It's precisely what keeps us stuck from making progress, you know, kind of evil, sinful. Like, even right now in the immigration situation, you know, people go, it's pure evil. And I go, this is not helpful because you end up doing what. What you're really hoping to highlight, which is there is no them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There is no worst of the worst.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There is no other. It's just us. But if you say evil, then it. You're you. By definition, you. You're othering. I mean, I don't know how you can avoid it.

[B]

Right. It's so funny. Even when you say it's just us, I have an old program where I go, you mean the people that are aligned with inclusion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, homeboy.

[A]

Yeah, Father Greg.

[B]

And here we are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Over there are the scary, this, that, other than the bad, bad folks.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's. It's it doesn't mean you don't call out harm where. Where you say things this. So. But if I call something evil, then it's the end of discussion. But if I say this is really doing harm to real people, I don't have to demonize anybody or make a villain of anybody. I just have to say, let's be clear about what this is doing. It's harming people.

[B]

Not to get too psychological, but I think, like, it can feel costly to our identity, our separate identities, to love mentally unwell people. Because I feel like we're afraid that we'll. It's almost like superstitious. It's like if I love it in you, maybe it'll come out in me. Like somebody does something unspeakable, we have to cast them out. We have to stone them. I mean, anybody with basic scapegoating psychology knows that feels good in a very cheap way.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It's like huffing gasoline or something. It's cheap.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We're gonna kill. The enemy is in this country. The enemy is over here. And that is certainly what happens with. I was gonna say gang bangers. That's because the reason I said gang bangers. Have you seen the Dark Knight where the. Where the Joker talks about the plan?

[A]

No.

[B]

I think you would like it. He goes like, I kill a couple people, everybody freaks out, but a bunch of gang bangers die. Nobody minds because it's all part of the plan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Soldiers die. It's all part of the plan. And he's talking. It's kind of. It's interesting. And.

[A]

Yeah, no, I've never seen it.

[B]

It's shining a light on how we do go. Like, these people can die. These people can die.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, that's extreme.

[A]

It's acceptable.

[B]

Yeah, it's acceptable for some reason.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[B]

I. I think where. Where were we going with that othering?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's hard to do. You were talking, though, about mental. Somebody who's mentally ill, and.

[B]

We want to distance ourselves from things. And I think evil, the word evil helps us put space between. I don't want to find common ground between me and a murderer, let's say. Yeah, but like, you say this beautiful thing in the book, and I mean, you say countless beautiful things in the book, but that somebody at the LAPD said, when you're solving a murder case, it's helpful to imagine that the victim was a family member. So. So it'll motivate you. You'll be emotionally. Yeah, and then you say it would also be Beneficial to imagine that the perpetrator is a family member. And it's like, of course, but like, that's so challenging to people. Why is that so challenging?

[A]

But even like recently we've had, you know, there was the. The four people killed in the Montana bar. It's hard to keep track. There's so many things, you know, we don't call them serial killers. I guess. I don't know what we call mass shootings. And so people will say, gosh, they haven't found a motive yet. You know, there was one guy that they're still looking for and some family member with great compassion was saying, he's so mentally ill. You know, he's an ex. He was a veteran. And she kind of talked with great compassion. I don't know who she was. Like a cousin. And he's just so ill. So the goal, of course, is to be able to be attentive in a loving way to enough people to make sure nobody's isolated or alone in their horrific pain. And so that you notice this guy, which apparently she did. But it's like we tried to get help, those kinds of things. But I didn't need anybody to tell me that, you know, he's mentally ill. I already know because he just killed four people in a bar. But they go, well, we haven't figured out a motive. I go, right, you know, I don't need to hear a motive. Why would you look for a motive? This is not a rational, healthy whole thing.

[B]

Well, that's something you say in the book to go resourced, emotionally stable, not stable emotionally well or cherished or included.

[A]

Belonging people I can see like at homeboy, you can see the power of people being cherished. Deep mental health issues this gang member has. So you hope for stay clean, stay in recovery, maybe talk some to somebody. I think you're going to probably a little some meds to lift your boat so it doesn't take water. And you're going to be okay because you're surrounded. We love you, you know, come out with your hands up, you know, and it works. I mean, I've seen this work where you go, wow, this guy's unrecognizable because a whole community has paid attention to him in a loving way such that he's not flailing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and he doesn't become the guy in a bar in Montana.

[B]

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[A]

Back to the show.

[B]

I'm. What you're seeing on my face is I'm. I'm realizing there are people in my life that reach out, that I'm, you know, new 20 years ago and they're going through something. But, like, you, like, this is what. I'm just going to tell you what my mind thinks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Doesn't this person have any, like, real friends? Yeah, they're just texting me. They just. They're just. They're parasitic. They're trying to take from me. I need to have a boundary here. I could say this at coffee and everyone would be like, absolutely. And I. And then I have this cognitive dissonance where I want to be wet. I want to be juicy.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I want to be vibrant and alive and generous and irrationally loving. And then there's this other part that goes like, if you text this person, they'll just Keep texting you. It's like feeding a cat or something.

[A]

Yeah, a little bit.

[B]

So is one of the things that I don't want to say guards you specifically against that or helps you, is you have counselors at Homeboy. You have a team. There's a community of loving. It's not all on you.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, everybody's giving a dose that's. We always use the word dosing. So it's the security guy. It's Miguel, who's, you know, was in prison for 18 years and he's the head of security. I just saw him right now and. And I watch how he is, you know, like, so we have tattoo removal and certain days, you know, in moments when we least expect it, kids are brought in shackles from a detention facility in LA county and they shut the thing down. So they. They don't allow you to go through that. The hallway where the bathroom is. A homies posted up here. A homies post up there. Because just before I came here, I saw that. So they always call me and say, you know, the kids are here from the camps or whatever. Juvenile hall. Yeah. So I go in and make sure they feel welcome. And they're all. And it's. They make sure that there are no looky loose. That's why they don't have anybody go down the hall because they don't want somebody to look in and see, here's this guy in an orange.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whatever. Uniform. And. But I watched Miguel. I mean, he was just tender with them, you know, and he's. And then he walked me. I went to the restroom, and he was standing outside the restroom. He goes, you know, they won't let us give them cookies. They used to do this because we have the bakery and. And Miguel liked doing that. He liked. He would bring cookies and give it to them once they had. And the treatments are painful, you know, and it's a. It's a hard thing, tattoo removal. And. And so he. I had never said this before. I mean, he was lamenting, you know, they won't let us give him cookies. I said, oh, that's too bad. But he's giving them cookies. You know, he's saying, hey, come back, come back. Yeah, with his smile, with his tenderness, with his cherishing, with his intentionality to kind of see them, you know, and he's not a therapist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and so everybody's doing that. They're doing that because they've received that and they know what it is, and it's the best, you can do. Because in the end, it's like, as you say, boundaries are healthy and fine. And, you know, you have Val and Leila, and you have to kind of say, you know, I have to kind of give an attention here that I really can't give to you. I'll text you, or maybe I'll say an encouraging word. But if enough people do that, then I think people feel held.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And.

[B]

And it isn't just me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It would be me and the other people.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right.

[B]

I think you're.

[A]

You're.

[B]

You shown a light right on. I'm like, I can't do it. Yeah. I can't do it. Do a little bit.

[A]

Yeah, I can do a little bit. And then it's. Then why would we disparage the little bit? You know? Because that's huge, you know, and. And I see this all the time because I. I text so much, you know, and people will, you know, just, oh, I'm proud of you, and nice going.

[B]

And this is what you're saying.

[A]

That's what I say all the time, you know, and it's nothing. It's not like you're in the office with this person for an hour. Yeah. It's just. Yeah. Hey, congratulations. Hey, I heard today, I sent somebody. They announced at morning meeting that, you know, you. You're moving to full time. You know, there are these little things, and you go, that's not a huge thing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it could just be the thing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That propels this person to put one foot in front of the next. And if enough people are doing that with that kind of intentionality all day long.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It has a cumulative tenderizing effect on people.

[B]

Yeah. Well, this is beautiful.

[A]

And on me, too.

[B]

Yeah. You. You've. You've caught is a weird word, but you've caught me believing that it is all up to me. Like, there. There are lots of people in my life and in my community. This person's in pain. I want to hang out with them, and then I get overwhelmed.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Like, I very quickly go to. Like, I can't. I can't every day or whatever it is.

[A]

But what is the thing that you can't. You know, because. Yeah, I can't. What, Save, fix, rescue?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I can't allow this person to be, you know, if. If all you had to do with your life was this person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, okay, maybe feel bad about the fact that you're not, but just a.

[B]

Part of my life.

[A]

Yeah. That's Just a part of your life. And then I think the thing is outcomes. And you know, how do we kind of.

[B]

I'm very western. I'm resulting. And you're slowing me down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're going just this tax, just this breath.

[A]

All you have to do. That's all you have to do. And then you feel kind of wow. And then even little things like because we both travel and you know, you can say, I'm going to smile. It seems weird, but then you feel like, wow, this is kind of activating. It's pulling me out of my funk, out of my self absorption. I'm going to. I'm walking onto this plane.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm going to say hi. I'm going to smile.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And people are electrified by it.

[B]

Yes. What I was saying how close we are to that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Very, very close.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that little nudge into.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

You're reminding me. I like to call my mom after I've been listening to your book because I'll have a better call with her. It shifts the energy. And you were reminding me you're texting homies. I'm proud of you. Or I heard this or whatever. It was beautiful. I called my mom and was just like telling her how proud I am of her and how brave she is and you know, she's dealing with all these old age things. And it was the most different conversation because now it sounds like I'm bragging, but it was a beautiful thing.

[A]

I get exactly what you're saying.

[B]

I wasn't going to be like, let's see if you're the mother of my dreams today. Right. Like I'm going to judge what she says. I just kind of was. And it was real. That's the best part, was that it was real. I didn't just say. When I was growing up in the church, there was like a feeling that the youth pastors were phony. They were just like, hey, buddy, to everybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I wasn't hey buddying her, but I was finding tender is such a right word. Where's it soft? It's like, it must be kind of scary getting old. My memory is going, you know what's here right now, Mom? What can we remember right now? And that's that space. That's that wet space.

[A]

Yeah, I like the wet.

[B]

It's a Ram Dass thing.

[A]

Yeah. Is it really keep the heart wet? Yeah.

[B]

Because it means juicy.

[A]

You also said juicy.

[B]

Juicy. These. I know, I know.

[A]

No, it's good. It's actually because it's because the opposite is dry, brittle, brittle and sad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And juicy is. Is not a fleeting happiness. It's joy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's flourishing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, there's. Isaiah has a thing about, you know, then you become this watered garden and whose water never fails. That's how this ends, this passage from Isaiah. And. And that's kind of, you know, it's kind of soaked and it's like. Yeah, yeah. It's. No, it's not going to.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Nothing dry will happen here. Nothing brittle will happen.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's going to stay kind of fresh.

[B]

And then. Jesus. With living water, obviously, water seems to. When I got the sense of like a spring. I don't know where it says that, but like the internal spring. So there's. There's this consciousness that is. Everyone can agree we are having the experience of. Of being. And there's like a. It's happening.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's. It's inexhaustible. It's always there.

[A]

It's not gonna run dry.

[B]

It doesn't run dry. So when I'm finding a way for my behavior in my mind to be in line with that generosity. That's why it feels so natural and like a homecoming kind of thing. Rupert Spire has this beautiful thing. He's like, when you're generous and happy in love, like, don't you feel like your real self?

[A]

Like, he's like.

[B]

And aren't you compelled to give it away? Like you call a friend or you're looking for somebody to give it? Like it's such a clue to our nature. I don't know. I relate to that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I feel more when I'm talking to my mother that way. I feel like we're both somehow more ourselves than when we're blocking each other.

[A]

With these mind games or you're solving her.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

You know, but instead you're just, you know.

[B]

Right. I wonder.

[A]

You're cherishing.

[B]

You're cherishing.

[A]

You know, it's love that's really kind of concrete. I've heard you mention him before.

[B]

Rupert.

[A]

Yeah. Is there a kind of a seminal book? I'm embarrassed to say I don't know him.

[B]

No, you shouldn't. You know, I gave it to Richard and I felt like such a dingus.

[A]

I don't know why, but I've heard you mention him before and I thought, oh, I want to.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, I'll give it to you. I was going to bring it for you because he's a great non. Dual. He just has A gift for talking about non. Duality.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And correct me if I'm wrong, but in all four of your books, there's these little winks of, like, you'll use the word non Dual.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's something fiercely non dual in what you're doing. There's this meaning. I feel like your life is an expression of no otherness, like a. A oneness. It's not just a conceptual, like, well, how many infinite spaces can there be or whatever it might be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And what is your relationship with. With that? When you say non dual, are you winking to a. A deep appreciation of that?

[A]

Oh, yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean, those are the things I like and I connect to, but it's also, you know, good and bad is kind of what. How people operate. And so. And then you kind of like, well, we stand with the bad. You know, we stand with folks who are demonized and easily despised and readily left out. That's who we walk with. And so. But once you walk with them, you're. You're by definition saying, no, they belong to us. They're. They're not outside this circle. So we're imagining the circle, and now we're going to imagine it with nobody standing outside of it.

[B]

Rupert says that. He says you keep widening the circle.

[A]

That's the whole idea. Yeah. But it's, It's. It's not as clear because, like, even just today, you know, because I've been gone for a few days and. And one. One kid, all people acting way out of character, and one guy robbed somebody, and it's like, whoa, that's never happened. You know, and somebody had a gun. I go, wow. You know, especially. I mean, that's happened. But, you know, when you look at somebody, you go, wow, that's really out of character. So you. You want to draw lines. You want to say, you know, you're banished, you know, and. And it's frustrating because you. You have to insist on not doing that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, you still kind of have boundaries. You still say, like, today, some. One of the homies who runs the place said, you know, mentioned three names and said they're on the no Fly List, which means they can't come into the building, which is heartbreaking because, you know, you don't like having that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But because they were violent and provocative and stirring the pot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and it's a timeout, basically.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We never cut them loose. We just say. And we always try to keep communication in and have people on the no Fly List. Returned all the time. But, you know, for now, it's. For us, it's. It's really important that you not come in here because it's too triggering for people.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

So. But I was, you know, texting. Had a red light. You know how you do that? And am I texting and driving? No, no, I'm at a red light, so maybe that's splitting hairs, but that's.

[B]

When I get most of my.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

I drive a car that dings when the car. When the light turns.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And it's because it knows.

[A]

It knows.

[B]

It knows everyone's texting at the red light. Yeah, that's when you have a six year old, too. I feel like we probably understand each other in that way. I don't want to always be on my phone, so my daughter doesn't see me on my phone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'll use it when I'm peeing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'll just be. I'll sit down. So I have a good couple minutes. She always comes in. I'm like, there's no way. It's not like I'm so ashamed. I just don't want her image of me to be the guy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Can't hide it. She's gonna see it. Daddy.

[A]

Smokes. He goes to the bathroom to do it.

[B]

Or at red lights.

[A]

Yeah, that's it.

[B]

You were sending the text.

[A]

Yeah. So, yeah. Just kind of trying to soften the thing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And say, you know, I understand. You can't come there. And. And actually told him I'd see him after this time. Oh, really? So. But again, they get unreasonable and they kind of.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they blame the world, and. And. And, you know, they get really surly, you know? Yeah. And you just have to. You. You can't. You can't do this thing where they say you and you go, well, me? Oh, hell, no. You and. And you're. That's where you want to go.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because you're human beings.

[B]

Right. Of course.

[A]

But you, you know, you catch yourself. You have to catch yourself constantly.

[B]

Gee. I was with my daughter on the bike in Ojai. Beautiful Ojai. I always say I have a joke where I go. I moved to Ojai and I thought when I lived in la, I'd have these depressing days where I'm like, oh, I can't. I just saw a guy mailing a squirrel. Of course I'm upset. Then I go to Ojai and I have a depressed day, and I'm like, oh, it's me.

[A]

Yeah, it's me. It's just.

[B]

We all have those feelings. Nothing can fix you.

[A]

It's always.

[B]

You're always gonna have the human experience. So I'm on the bike. I stopped my bike. I'm waiting for my wife to catch up to us, buy a car. And this woman goes, excuse me, I'm trying to get in my car. Just that. Just that was enough to make me want to be like, no, you like. Because the way she said, I need to get in my car on this tranquil road. I'm just buy a car. I don't know. And then I have to. The way I said, no, you was, oh, I didn't know. Pardon me.

[A]

Like that.

[B]

But I said you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we knew that she knew that I said, because she was talking to herself.

[A]

We didn't know it was in other words.

[B]

Exactly. We didn't say the words.

[A]

But why?

[B]

It's. It's endlessly fascinating.

[A]

Yeah. How.

[B]

And I'm a person interested in healing, expand all of this stuff still in that moment, you. You're threatening. You're, like, assaulting something that I'm very protective of. Like, you can't have this, and I'll go to war for it. I will.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And obviously, I'm not trying to get rid of those, but when they happen, I'm just like, wow. Still couldn't just be like, oh, excuse me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I had to be like, oh, I didn't know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It never ends.

[A]

Little moments. Little.

[B]

Little humbling moments.

[A]

But it's hard to catch yourself in those kinds of things.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's. It's good to not beat yourself up about them. I mean, not even. I know you know that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You feel that way.

[A]

But it's like. Because the homies will talk about, you know, he took you to that place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. Which is an interesting way, the way they phrase it, you know, because I think, well, what's the place? Yeah. You know, the place is where you're toppled by something. By somebody's bad behavior or rudeness.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And how do you not get underneath? How do you not try to find where's the thorn? What's that about? I think it's the hardest thing in the world.

[B]

I think it is. And I used to think that converted or enlightened people didn't have those moments. I still don't know.

[A]

No, that's not true.

[B]

I don't think it's true. Right.

[A]

It isn't true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, like, pema Chodron, who I love and is a friend. And. And she says. She talks about catching yourself, but she's saying that because she has experience of not catching herself. I mean, truly. And she'll talk about that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And, you know, like, annoyance, I think we don't really calculate annoyance, that people are annoying, you know, and. And so we have this notion of, like, holy people are, you know, eternally kind to annoying people. No, they're annoyed. And so you just have to kind of. You watch how they do it. You watch how they breathe. You watch how they step back a little bit. I don't really do that, so well.

[B]

Yeah, me neither.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And as we're telling the story, it's because it was a beautiful day. It was a quiet street. It wasn't Manhattan. If someone said that in Manhattan, I'd be like, of course.

[A]

Fuck me.

[B]

It was a beautiful postcard morning, and I'm with my family, and it's so quiet. I'm trying to get in my car. I'm like, you're in the way. Like, I made you the blight of this beautiful thing, and I'm gonna destroy you. This is like, kind of going back to what we're talking about. All this love. Right. And no fly lists and the cookies and all of this stuff so much. And I said, I'm so western. Meaning I'm not trying to be, but, like, I am a little too obsessed with, like, results, like, bottom line stuff. And I'm saturated in all of our myths are. Retro. Retrib. Retrib.

[A]

Retributive.

[B]

Retributive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Retributive.

[A]

Retribution. I will be your retribution. As somebody said.

[B]

What is that?

[A]

That's what Trump said.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I. I will be your retribution.

[B]

I didn't even know that. Yeah, well, there you go. Another one. Retro.

[A]

I can't say retribution. Retributive is really hard to say.

[B]

I don't have a lot of words. I just can't say as you just said it, but violence in the name of retribution, like the Avengers avenge in the name of retribution. We punch what punched us harder. Batman punches Bane harder. Second Batman reference.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's our myth. That. That's meaning. That's our story.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, our culture is like, if gang violence is going up, we will send more police and we'll incarcerate more people. All that sort of stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that seems to be at play. Meaning, like, it's like a what the hell is water thing. Like, I'm a fish, and I'm. I'm Swimming in every story is like, if they get you, you get them. And. And. And if it's not working, cut it off, all that sort of stuff. And in comes this Miguel, who wants to give cookies to a man in shackles. It's just. It's a hard. I don't think it's a hard sell. It's what we actually want. We want Miguel and cookies and shackles.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

But we go like, but, you know, missiles and punching and I'm your retribution.

[A]

Well, but again, it's like, I probably write too much about this and about health, you know, so retribution, you know, he says, I will be your retribution. And I remember Newt Gingrich said, yeah, but, you know, wanting payback is human. And I thought about that, and I go, it might be, but you couldn't make the case that it was healthy, that retribution is not the endeavor of a healthy adult. And so that's important. So rather than demonize anybody, because they're going to be our retribution. But, you know, like, there was a certain rally after a hundred days as president in Michigan, and he said, direct your attention to the screen. And the lights went down, and on the screen were brown men being shuffled off of a plane and shackled. And then they're in cages at the end of this little, brief little clip in a gulag in Salvador. And the entire crowd went nuts. And they were cheering and they were clapping, and then they started to chant, usa. Usa. So I think sometimes when we're not. Well, we think mean and cruel is tough and strong. Yes, but it's just mean and cruel.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it doesn't mean these are bad people or stupid people. It just means when we're. Well, we recognize that mean and cruel is mean and cruel. And. And so. But, you know, we will name it something else. We'll name it tough, and we'll name it retribution. Oh, yeah. And we'll say, that's human. To. To want vengeance or payback or however you want to say it. And it could be because it might be human for us to want that, but to actually seek it and engage in it is not. A healthy person doesn't do this. And so I don't have to say an evil person does it.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Or a stupid person. But. But you go, we all could be healthier than we are.

[B]

Well, I wonder if you've had this fantasy. Okay, I have so many things that was so beautiful, I wrote it on my mirror. We don't have enemies. We have injuries. And what is the Other one, we don't have hate. We have wounds. And I was just like, that is just. I'm talking about for me, that. That heals me. I'll have, like a hateful impulse. And it only takes a moment to go, what is the wound here? And it's right. It's usually right there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you go like. And you could. And then you're tender to yourself. You're like, this is a reaction to a hurt that you had. And when we're talking about mentally unwell people, where like, these aren't our enemies. These are injured people. These people have some sort of injury.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then maybe this is childish, but, like, I've had the fantasy, like, you could take any person out of a situation and just shower them, meet their needs. You see how this is kind of childish. I used to think this way, but I used to think, let's do it. Let's save people and take them to an island and let's change what they're eating and let's get them moving and let's get them sunlight and let's get them rest and let. But then what I learned from you, what we're really talking about. Let's get them included. Let's get them cherished. Let's be tender to them, let's be patient with them, let's be gentle with them, let's be understanding. Let's listen to them and address their wounds. Then we can transform somebody.

[A]

Yeah. I think it seems like maybe then it's transformation happens. I always make the distinction as opposed to, I'm. I'm going to transform form.

[B]

There I am being an Avenger again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm like, if we can take them through the program, like, I'm Iron Man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I. I love that shift. It's like then.

[A]

Because then the, The. The emphasis is on the communal. You know, I never say I transform lives. People say it. You know, reporters will say, he has transfer. How's it feel to have transformed lives? You know? And I go, well, I don't feel that, you know, but I do feel that transformation happens there. That once people kind of enter it and everybody's dosing, it's a system. Yeah. Which is why everybody comes back. Whereas we used to fret. Oh, God, he got arrested or he's got high or he relapsed. Yeah. Oh, God, maybe he'll be back. But nobody says that now. Everybody says he'll be back because there's a kind of. It's so compelling, it's irresistible, where people go I was cherished there. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna have that again. I want that again.

[B]

Isn't it so funny? What comes to mind is I took my daughter to Disneyland and we stayed at the hotel, and they say welcome home when you come there. So there's this, like. I'm not saying it's evil or the commodities. It's. It's so amazing that even corporations have gone, like, smile, all these things. It is a little bit dodgy that it's, like, mandated, but it's. It's an extension of, like, people want this more than anything. And when it's real and it's not just a mission statement from the Disney Corporation. Well, you see why I thought of that.

[A]

But it's also longing. You know, religion isn't about, you know, creed. It's about longing. So somehow, how do you tap into what are people longing for? People long for that. People long to be at home. People long to be welcomed. Yeah. Included.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, seen. Safe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And people long for that. So give people what they want, you know, rather than what you think they need.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, but just kind of. Because then it's. I bet you find this on the road, you know, in audiences.

[B]

It's funny that you said that, because I was already thinking of it.

[A]

Yeah. Because I find it and I. And you think, oh, God, it's gonna be split. It's gonna be division. It's gonna be. You know. So I was in Lakeside, Ohio, at this point thing, and so. And there were a lot of people there, and I thought. I don't know. And I thought there would be kind of a split. And then somebody burst my bubble who was there, and they said, yeah, but, you know, they're here to hear you. So they're already kind of on a certain page, I suppose, you know, And I kind of thought it would be a kind of a divided thing, and it wasn't. But it just taps into, I think, what the longing is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People don't. You experience that?

[B]

Do what. What came. I have something on the division thing, and what came to mind was I joke about. I don't do crowd work because I'm not good at it. I like improvising, but I don't like being like, look at your dumb shirt. That sort of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I just go, like, you look kind. It's. It's. I hate to break hearts, but it's. It's scripted. I do it every time, but I'll look at people and just say something like, Positive. That's a nice shirt.

[A]

Affirming.

[B]

I go, are you guys married? You're gonna make it. It's one of my favorite parts of the show.

[A]

Yeah, that's great.

[B]

I just go, you're gonna make it. And they know I'm joking, but that's what I was saying, like.

[A]

Well, they don't think you're joking. They know that it's a thing you do.

[B]

It's a thing I do. And they know that it's in the spirit of comedy, but I'm also saying it. You're gonna make it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Meaning it's a little bit like a Disneyland welcome home. But Disneyland welcome home does make me feel good. Meaning we'll take it however we can get. Wouldn't you say? It's like, I don't care. I'm not going to scan that. Because when we talk about priming, which is something I'm very interested in, which is like, loading people with certain words will change their behavior. One of the things I love about your books is just when do you hear the word tenderness so often? Or compassion or belonging? And you kind of like snapping out of it for a second. You remember that those are. It's not Mansion and Five Cars or. It's not all these things. We were told it was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's actually, you know.

[A]

But you hold people in high regard. And. And it's a. You said priming.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's. It reminds me of prizing, which is. I think it's Carl Rogers, who's. Who says I could be wrong. It could be Jung. I don't know who it is. But it's about prizing, you know, where you prize somebody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not praising. It's. It's prize. It's like you're finding the prize and you're finding the. And it enables you to hold people in high regard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is not fake.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because none of it's fake.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Even if it's.

[B]

Well, I'm telling you, I can remember some of the faces of the people that I said. That's how many people. And there's a moment where we snap out of it because we were prizing just ever so briefly. And I try to behold my daughter. That's something I do with my daughter is beholding her. I'll cry. I love when she catches me looking at her and I'll see her smile, and I'm just like, that's it. That's the whole thing. She knows. Was it you? Yeah, it was you. What fun. Didn't know if it was you or Richard. But the father who won't. The son is reading his father a story at night. He's in hospice, and he's trying to get his dad to go to sleep, but he won't stop waking up and.

[A]

Smiling, staring at his kid. Yeah.

[B]

And that is an image of God as opposed to, you know, but that's.

[A]

Also a decision you make as opposed to something that just happens every once in a while.

[B]

The beholding.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's really. You intend to do it.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And in order to intend to do it doesn't mean, you know, your sinful self is keeping you from doing it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It just means we can't help our self absorption. So that's where our intentionality comes in. We go, nope, Leila's in the room. I know. I'm worried about this or I'm wondering about that. Nope.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you really have to decide to do it. But I think what hasn't helped us, as when you talk about, you know, the kind of the western thing or our own religious upbringing, is that it's sin that keeps you from being attentive. No, it's. It's the most natural human thing, which is you're. We're all frightened and we're self absorbed and. And you. Part of our practice is to lift us right out of that and say, no, somebody's just come into the room. I'm going to pay attention.

[B]

Yeah. I feel like I'd love to hear your take on this. And I'm checking. It's been about an hour. Do you need.

[A]

No, I'm good. Last time I was here, it was. It was some kind of torture. Oh.

[B]

And I was mortified to think that you were waiting to use the bathroom. So you let me know anytime.

[A]

I'm fine, I'm fine.

[B]

But this. This feels like again, I'm always. Who cares? I was gonna say worried that it's virtue signaling, as they call it, bragging, But I'm in the car and I'm leaving. Probably to come to, not this podcast, but a podcast. My daughter comes out and like, she. She wants me and she just wants a hug, but she's like, kind of playing don't go. And then like those moments where you go, what is 45 seconds? Nothing I've ever done has been fucked because I was 45 seconds later. And when you and I know you know this, when you drop into a true 45, like a present. 45.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm opening the door now. She's on my lap. And we all the sediment in the lake settles and it's clear. It was probably less than 45 seconds, but I think you and I share an interest in that turn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think you're probably where I've learned this. This idea. People are coming in your office. Can we somehow reset or drop anchor or breathe like, with every breath, like, try to renew some sense of here we are.

[A]

Yeah. But you know when homies who take my place in my office when I'm not there, because they were talking about this the other day about, you know, you know, don't check the box, check the pulse. And I get it. I get it. Except I can't afford to do that kind of. Because I'll watch them because I'll be coming in and they'll be. They'll be having a conversation for like an hour with somebody and the whole reception area is full. And I go. I haven't been able to do that in 40 years. Where you go because there's nobody waiting for you. Yeah. Why not spend an hour with somebody?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I can't do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it has to be fast. State your business. Yes. Check the box. Try to be as attentive and loving and kind and beholding and affirming and prizing and high regard. But this is not going to last long because I have too many people who are not just sitting. They're standing in front of your door and they're going, come on. Like that.

[B]

And with real issues. I'm not trying to.

[A]

Totally, totally.

[B]

We need diapers.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

We have no diapers.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Like, this isn't, this isn't the. This isn't a hug from my daughter.

[A]

This is.

[B]

We need, we might need food and we need people.

[A]

You need to dispatch me to somebody.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which is, which is kind of my job is taxi dispatching.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, or triage nurse, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that's hard, you know, because you, you sometimes you can't afford to. But you also have to be confident that in love that, that, you know, that it's never fake. But it's interesting, you know, the virtue signaling, you know, what does that exactly mean? You know, that people will think what. You know, because. No, I mean this genuinely because I think, God, am I doing that, you know, and like, what's, what's the concern there? Not saying, like, oh, I'm all that and a bag of chips. It's like, it's more kind of what are we saying when we're. Because I agree with You. I agree with you, but what are we saying exactly?

[B]

That we're somehow a wolf in sheep's clothing? That's like, like, it's like Instagram. It's like, I live a life of leisure and I'm always happy and I'm smiling like I'm not. I told you that my daughter. I'd have to tell her to brush her teeth 30 times. And I get frustrated. I think we want the full picture. We don't just want the virtue signaling that close.

[A]

Yeah, maybe. But like, sir, like, sort of here's where I'm. Maybe people think it's grandstanding or here's how I feel about this thing. Or.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I don't know, but honestly. Or it's the opposite of humility.

[B]

We did. I. Yeah, I suppose. I think they're suspicious of it. If someone takes a picture of themselves at a rally, they're like, they probably went to the rally, took the picture and went home. Yeah, Like, I think that's.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

That would be my. If it's a celebrity being like, all the people over here that are starving.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they probably got on their jet and went home.

[A]

Like, we have this cynical.

[B]

That's right, it's cynical.

[A]

Which is.

[B]

I don't know. I've been wanting to ask you because we're both introverts. I learned that when I did an event and I left and you said, I'm so jealous.

[A]

I felt terrible because there were people in earshot and they were horrified and I went, oh, shit. Oh, well. Because really, that's kind of, you know, if I could just go to bed.

[B]

I never felt closer to you. I was like, I. I love speaking and I'm glad that my job forces me. Certainly not this, but this is part of it. I'm smart enough to know that I need people and kind of turned it into part of my life that I have to show up for it.

[A]

And you're great once you're up there.

[B]

Once you're up there and then you.

[A]

Come down and you go, well, I don't. This is the part that's hard.

[B]

I don't know who to talk to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Great. Seinfeld on 60 Minutes goes, he's in the back, he's backstage, and his green room is filled with well wishers. You can just tell it's agents and friends of friends. And he's like, I know what to say to these people. I don't know what the hell to say to these people. And I was like, I relate. So Hard. I actually think public speaking is a. Is a control freaks paradise. Like, we all know the parameters. You even know how long I'm gonna be talking?

[A]

More or less.

[B]

And we know the vocabulary. With me, it's laughs and claps. Maybe groans if you want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, like, it's very controlled. As opposed to a room filled with people.

[A]

You're like, there could be a lot.

[B]

Cocktail party.

[A]

Can't do it. It's horrible for me. I dread it.

[B]

Improvising little.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You went to school in Cambridge, didn't you?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We have to yell it. It's loud.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now I'm yelling. What kind of glasses are those? Like, it's not.

[A]

But. So an extrovert likes that. I guess so.

[B]

Extroverts like people.

[A]

Yeah, well, we like people.

[B]

No, we. We hold them in high regard. But I think this is Richard. Richard Rohr says extroverts are energized by people. Introverts give their energy to people. And they get their energy from being alone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we recharge.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And then. Extra. My wife is extroverted. I see her at a party. She's. She's coming to life. She knows social awkwardnesses. She knows. Sometimes I don't know what to say, but she gets this, like, the sun on her skin from being with lots.

[A]

Exactly. Right.

[B]

And I'm like, I like this right now.

[A]

I'm.

[B]

I'm loving this. And when I drive back to oai.

[A]

I will love that. I will. Exactly. I'm with you. I'm with you. But it's hard, you know, because, you know, like, Laurence Olivier was an introvert, you know, and there he's on stage.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Doing Hamlet. Yeah. And it. That's not a thing that phases him. Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Can I tell you, that's one of my favorite. Rupert. So Rupert Spiro, who he got off of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who most people are like, I can't believe Pete let that go. Cause I talk about him endlessly. One of my favorite analogies that he uses for our true nature, like, recognizing who we are. Like, the prodigal son is the actor who plays. He says, I can't believe I'm blamed. King Lear. So he's like an actor plays King Lear. And he gets so into the part, he's so lost in the role that people come backstage after the show and say, that was great. And he. And he still thinks he's King Lear. And his friends are like, no, you're John Smith. You're an actor. He's like, what does King Lear need to do to remember that he is John Smith? And you see that? It's a relaxing. It's a surrendering or a dissolving. It's a relinquishing. All these words are synonyms. But I love that you're so caught in this othering of yourself and everyone. You're playing the role, you're in the drama, and anyone would understand you got swept away. But backstage now, a gentle friend is saying, no, you're really John Smith. What does he need to do? Nothing. It's not being purified or made right with John Smith. He just needs to go inside and ask himself, who am I?

[A]

Yeah. What does he need to do?

[B]

Nothing.

[A]

To return.

[B]

You can't become what you already are. That's written on my mirror as well.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

You can't become what you already are. Who are you? I wonder what you make of this, Rupert. It's something I really like. He's like, we draw this boundary around ourselves. We say, God is infinite, but not here. And he says, that's actually blasphemy. Obviously, we don't go around saying, I'm God. But the true blasphemy is to displace God's infiniteness with one speck of you. It has to be one. This takes us back to the oneness.

[A]

Which is the problem where people think that's what humility is. It's to disparage their selves and kind of say, especially when people go, all the praise is to God. And I go, relax, you know, you don't have to do that.

[B]

Right. You know, and he's not waiting for your donation.

[A]

Yeah. Or I remember I got some award, and some woman got an award before me, and she just went all the praises to God, and she was like. And it felt like a hostage video that she was. That God was somehow backstage and saying, that's right. Come on now, you know. Or like, you know, that God somehow had her dog at gunpoint, you know? You know, it's like, no, no, it's okay. You know that God is sort of feels okay about you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, and that you don't have to. You don't have to deflect.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That God is sort of delighting in what. What God is seeing in you.

[B]

I did that when I was in choir and college would go, you know, like a basketball player.

[A]

Yeah, exactly like.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

Yeah. No, please don't clap for me.

[B]

Yeah. You know, but it's the great Jim Finley. We both love Jim Finley.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I got this quote from your book, though. It says, we say God is in heaven.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

God is in you, but maybe God's heaven is you.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

I was like, yeah, I've gotten in near accidents many times writing down things.

[A]

That I've learned from your books. I think that one, I love him. He's one of the. One of the greats. He also says, God protects me from nothing and sustains me in everything.

[B]

Yeah. That was a shift.

[A]

Yeah. For me, too.

[B]

Huge shift.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the reason I lost my faith the first time around was because my wife had an affair. My first wife hadn't. I was like, what was all this? No smoking, drinking, swearing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Churching about.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

I don't understand.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, but, you know, you make your bed in the depths. You are there. So while I was getting divorced, the spirit of God, or whatever you want to say, I'm always with you and everything I have is yours there, too.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

There too.

[A]

Yeah. We don't spend much time on the other. The other son, you know, because that's what.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

That's what he says to the other son. That's right. But, you know, homies were all will always. Just today they were to go, you know, God is good. And I go, first of all, who's saying that God is bad? A. And. And it's a setup.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because, you know, oh, I got this job. God is good. You know, I was able to figure out how to pay my rent or whatever. God is good. I go. And, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you hadn't been able to pull that off, you're stuck.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you have to say, God is a jerk.

[B]

Right. You know, that's where I was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, well, if this is the deal, right. If I'm the favored son and nothing ever bad had really happened to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now this is happening, and you.

[A]

Dotted your eyes and crossed your T's, and this is what happened.

[B]

What? What? I thought we had a deal.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. That's exactly.

[B]

You make that point about the mass emails that go out, and it's like all the stories of the people on 911 that got delayed or they missed their train, their alarms didn't go off, and it's like, but what about the 3,000 people who did go, God didn't like? I mean, that's kind of a stark thing to say, but what is this relationship we're setting up that God can be pleased and will bestow favor and God can be displeased.

[A]

Well, part of it is people are annoyed at random, you know, and you go, it's random. And, you know this conversation you have with gang members all the time where they just say, well, why did this happen? Shit happens. It's random. There's no rhyme or reason, you know, or like miscarriages or all sorts of things. That there has to be some kind of root.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think it's freeing to say there isn't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I don't find that alarming.

[B]

That's a big hurdle for me as well. Keep going, please.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I don't really know exactly, except, you know, I mean, and I come from a horrible, you know, constant experience of mother screaming into the sky and saying, why did God take my son? And you want to go, no, some pobrecito with a gun took your son, you know, who was a hurting kid.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's what happened.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But God has broken, as brokenhearted as you are, obviously. More. But I don't know. I don't know how to address that. I. Well, that Richard is good in terms of phases, you know, in kind of, you know, the first stage in life and the third. He talks about the third. But. But that's what happens, is that you, You. Everybody starts there. I don't know if you have to start there.

[B]

We all think you have cause and effect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Help me find a parking spot.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And if my wife left me, you must not. Either you're not real or you hate me.

[A]

Yeah. Which.

[B]

I don't know which it is, or.

[A]

You were asleep at the wheel and. Really.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and I've been a faithful servant, you know.

[B]

Well, the idea when the way you phrase it is God is too busy loving you to have a plan. And I really like that. That's. That's the way I would want to explain it to anybody. So I might. I feel like an astronaut. I'm leaving the ship and I have the tether, and I hope I can keep it together. But when we talk about God being perfect and God's inability to know subject to object. I know that sounds crazy. We know subject to object. And we are animated by Christ or by the divine indwelling consciousness being. So here we are doing that. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But God itself doesn't know subject to object. It's full of itself. Itself. It's complete. It's outside of time. So then you go, this was what I had to do. I go, so then God in that sense doesn't know about Me or me looking for a parking spot. And that was sort of like a cold. Like, you missed the Jiminy Cricket. God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are we saying this?

[A]

Oh, yeah. No. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

You go, like, wait. Another way to say it. That's way better. God's too busy loving us, sustaining us, suffering as that mother screaming.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With, through and. As that mother and as that child and as the shooter and as you. As in intimate and impersonal at the same time. That paradox.

[A]

That's a very. Jim Finley. With, through and as.

[B]

With, through and as.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He'll kind of. Because he said it covers all the angles, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where. Where that's kind of the truth of the thing. But, you know, it's just. It's enough, you know, like, you know, did God want you to be a comedian? You know, did God want me to be a Jesuit? I go, I don't even know what that means. You know, I think stuff is accidental and random. And you go, oh, I like this. I'm getting life here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think I'm going to do this. You know? But then it's like, you know, I've been called by God to do this. I go, I guess. I mean, people talk that way, you know. Yeah.

[B]

Well, that's why I was surprised that you could get that email. I can't listen. I can listen to you listen to Richard Mirabai's. Not really in that tradition, but almost anybody quoting the Bible. I'm like, I have only issues with.

[A]

Everything you just said. Yeah.

[B]

And I love Christ.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I really. I can't even. Because even if it is something kind of feel goody and, like, God is good. I'll be like, I heard you in an interview say, like, how's your soul? Somebody said that to you? And you're like, I don't know if souls have good days and bad days. I feel like that moment is me talking to anybody about religion. I'm just like. I don't really buy just the premise of what you're saying. I did an interview with somebody, and they ended up being very Christian, I guess. And they were talking about, like, how they wanted to get married before they moved into their house for God. God's been so good to us, so we wanted to do that. And I was just like. It broke my brain. I was like, so you were out and then you got married and now you're in? Like, that was like. You see the negotiating and the deals and like, we don't even really want it. I don't know if they Wanted to. Or I assume they did want to.

[A]

But you.

[B]

You get what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah. Except that part of the thing in that kind of dynamic is pleasing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like. And that's kind of key, you know? Can you please God.

[B]

Well, that was. I'm sorry to interrupt. That was. You said. The greatest misunderstanding is the. Is the idea that God can be pleased, I think. Yeah.

[A]

You know, because then. Then if that's pleasing, then this is displeasing. And you go, you know, and I don't think that's. I don't think that's the way it works, you know?

[B]

Yeah. Right. Because if it is, then that's just. Can you love me better than every person? You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That when I'm good and doting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I. I'm a fight flight. Freeze. I'm a fawner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I. I learned to kiss ass.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're the greatest. And that's how I kept myself safe. You're telling me I have to do that to the fundamental nature of reality, that it too, is petty and angry and has an ego that it needs defended. And you are separate. And it's just.

[A]

Annie Lamott has a great thing about fawning. Yes. Yeah.

[B]

What is that?

[A]

Well, I mean, she just kind of talks about.

[B]

Is she a fawner?

[A]

She's a fawner. And she does a whole riff on it. That's really good.

[B]

And her recent book, it's the Less Reported Strategy.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But very, very. I'll say.

[A]

It's out there.

[B]

It did me well in show business, too. I mean, that wound carried me, opened a lot of doors.

[A]

But pleasing is kind of like when you go, people pleaser. You know, the God pleaser is kind of. This is pleasing to God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you can't have it both ways, because if that's pleasing to God, there's a world of things that are displeasing. And it's not like kids starving in Gaza is. How does God see it? And you can talk about heartache and heartbreak and God is too busy loving us into doing what we need to be and to do. I had a homie who was sobbing in my office. And. And he just kind of says, you know, has God disowned me? And he keeps sobbing. And then he says, have you? And looked at me and says, have you? And I realize that, you know, the only way he's going to know that this is not on God's mind is to know that it's not on my mind. And so you want to be able to kind of move quickly to that place where, you know, you want to be in the world who God is.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And it's compassionate and kind and so you don't have to tell him about. But God loves you or God sustains you.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

The only way he's going to know that this is real is if you do it.

[B]

You brought that up. I went through a big Course in Miracles faith. Have you read any? Of course.

[A]

Yes, I remember. No, I know you've talked about it. Okay. Yeah.

[B]

There, there. We. We could have a nine hour conversation. I'm going to keep it real because. Tight. There's parts. I. I was just reading it the other day and. Who cares?

[A]

It's great. It's great.

[B]

It is great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's one aspect of A Course in Miracles that doesn't quite vibe with me, and it's this. It's that reality is a hiding place from God. We split from God. We thought we had killed God. So we created reality essentially to hide from God. So that's kind of the origin story. There's like a creation myth in there.

[A]

Like hiding and you're naked and.

[B]

Yes. Adam and Eve and very Adam and Evie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Very, very. Like, if we created duality, it doesn't matter. And by the way, 99% of the text isn't about that. So that's the one part that I don't love. I still read it, still love it. It's gotten a big impact on my life. And I thought of you as I was reading this. It was like, you are guiltless and therefore you are invulnerable. And the best thing you can do is show others their guiltlessness by demonstrating it. Like. Like, if you want to know that you're forgiven, forgive. If you want to know that you're loved, love. If you want to know that you're blameless and, and. And Jesus touched that unborn, undying part of himself and that's why he was not afraid. If you want to do that, show other people that they can't even hurt you, that you are. That you know who you are. That. That to me is what the crucifixion is. It's like, okay, you got way better. You got your body right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm. I'm demonstrating to you that you can't hurt me because I know who I am. So I wrote it down. I don't have to touch it to you, nothing can touch you. But when I see you doing the work. I sound like I'm on the Today Show. The work that you're doing. I'm just saying, when I see you in the world, I see a person who's going. I'm remembering who I am by remembering who they are. Does that sound right?

[A]

Yeah, boy, absolutely.

[B]

Okay, good.

[A]

Yeah. Because it keeps you also from the traps of everything, from fixing, saving, rescuing, to just seeing people, cherishing people, being confident in that, you know, because we get into this thing of outcomes, you know, how will this have a good outcome? And I think it kind of keeps us from progress, you know, and always lacking confidence in the power. That love never fails. And so that's not soft or cushy. That's just. That's the only thing that you can take to the bank, is that love, you know, will never fail. That it is a watered garden whose water never fails. Yeah.

[B]

Do you ever just want to get a kid out of, like, get him alone? Like, just want to get that kid alone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If we could spend a week together somewhere quiet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Without these.

[A]

Well, I mean, this is when I can do it. Like, I just came back from Niagara Falls. I had a couple talks there, and they helped. These two guys helped.

[B]

And that's part of it. That's like, let's go be alone together.

[A]

Yeah. Let's come in and, you know, you're having meals. You know, you're there. You've seen the waterfall. I don't know if you've ever been to Niagara Falls. They have the Maid of the Mist thing that you go where you get on the boat and you wear.

[B]

You know, where Jim and Pam got married. It's an office reference, if you got it.

[A]

It would make me sad. Well, I know who they are. I know who they are. I don't remember that, but. Oh, they were beside themselves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They were just exhilarated. And it was so great to be with them. And they were, you know, okay, we've gone close enough to the falls. You know, the boat gets really close.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you go, okay. And then. And they're just exhilarated. I mean, they were howling with laughter, and they take selfies of everything and. And the plate of food comes and they take a picture of it, you know, And I don't know, it's just. And just today they've been texting me all day saying that that was the best experience of my life or whatever.

[B]

This is going back to you. Not that that's the point, but I'm seeing relationship, a circle. Their joy is now being given to you, it's like children.

[A]

You're seeing it through, and it's also time and you. You know, and. I don't know. And then they get up and they speak, you know, and people just, you know, throw roses at them. You know, they just love them. And they've never had that experience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then each time they tell their story, it gets a little bit deeper. Yeah. And a little more true.

[B]

They show a little bit more.

[A]

Yeah, they do. Yeah.

[B]

You know, because they're starting to trust. It is like feeding a cat in the good way. Now, the cat.

[A]

And then you begin with a homie tells a story where his father is, you know, at every baseball game. By the fifth time he's told the story on this trip, you know, the father was an alcoholic and he's beating the mother. Well, that was true all along, but. But he kind of discovered, you know, what. What's the real story?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And even forgiveness for, you know, for all the pain he.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Endured. Wow. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. When I did that event with homie. With homie. With homeboys, I was with a homie backstage. I'm forgetting her name, and I'm not asking you to remember it, but it was great. We really recognized each other.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I know that. I really. If you'll allow me to clear my throat. I relate to your books and the stories in them so deeply. I'm like, there's something. So when I'm with that frequency, we just recognized each other. And then she got up and spoke, and I was like. And as you know, it's these atrocious things. And I was like, that was the.

[A]

Still person who was just talking to you backstage.

[B]

Yeah. And we were. Yeah, we were being loving.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's funny the way.

[A]

And maybe you're different, you know, obviously different. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I'm not trying to. That's why.

[A]

Yet you're connecting. I mean, it's connective tissue everywhere.

[B]

What's the story that you say in one of your books where it's like, the home the homie goes up to the Holocaust survivor.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

He's like, I wasn't competing.

[A]

I was connecting.

[B]

I was connecting. Yeah. And that's me. I'm not competing with their trauma. To quote you, I wouldn't have survived a day. Their childhood. But hurt is hurt. There it is. We're the same. I feel like circumstantially, obviously different, but there's this great unifying.

[A]

But it's not even just pain connecting with pain. It's just humor, and it's yeah. And it's. People want to be seen.

[B]

Well, you know, it's funny, the way we bonded is we were both backstage. I think we were both a little nervous, and some woman who worked for the venue came up and told us something and she walked away. And I don't know this girl. I didn't even know she was a homie. Although, you know, she had cornrows. And I was kind of guessing, and I went this right away, and it was me. Sonar pings.

[A]

It's all.

[B]

My wife is always like, pete's just pinging you. He just wants to know where you are and where the line is. When I went, this bitch. And she laughed. She didn't even know I was a comedian, just some guy. It was such a beautiful. I had my own little micro homie moment.

[A]

You know, it's funny. I was walking. The homies will walk me through the car and Because, I don't know, that's like security or something. And. Where are you going? I said, I'm gonna go on a podcast. This was right now, and with Pete Holmes, and he's a comedian. And he goes, what's the name of the podcast? And I said, you made it weird. And I started to sing the song. I sang it to him, like two little verses. You made it? Yes. And so then he starts to write it down, you know.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And then I got in my car and I couldn't get the damn thing out of my head, you know, And I. So my. What do you call those? Like, ear worms or something? Yeah. And it just. I couldn't stop it. So then he started to do Christmas carols, you know, angels we have heard on high. Just to get. You made it weird out of my head, you know.

[B]

Very.

[A]

With all due respect, no.

[B]

One of my earliest bits was sometimes the only way to get a song out of your head is to put another song.

[A]

Yeah, it didn't work that well.

[B]

And I was like, oh, most people aren't having this problem. It's a certain kind of mind that just.

[A]

No, no, I. I have it. But I. But I. He was so earnest, too. He was writing it down. I'm going to look it up.

[B]

That was so sweet. Well, will you allow one brief foray into. One more into non. Duality? Because when Richard just did the podcast recently, and I was really trying to get his take on certain things, like when Meister Eckhart says, the eye with which I behold God is the same eye with which he beholds me, Y. Does that resonate with you.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Like, there's one.

[A]

We both. We love Meister.

[B]

We do.

[A]

Yeah. So does Richard.

[B]

You're. I got it. This is also something I wrote down while driving. Dictated. It is a lie. Any talk of God that does not comfort you.

[A]

Hard to imagine that in that 500 years.

[B]

1300S. Yeah, 1300s. I. I was quoting him to somebody, and somebody said, who's Meister Eckhart? And I was like. I just guessed it was the 1700s. I was like, what? He was saying, yeah, 1300.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's crazy. Will you ever do that with Jesus, too? You're like, these people. It was a crazy time in unenlightenment in the world. And this guy is.

[A]

He's great. I love him.

[B]

Yeah. So when I said. So. Another Rupert thing. And I love doing this, and I'm actually giving it to you because I think you'll like. It is becoming maybe, you know, it already. Becoming aware of the empty space in a room. There's something really anchoring or widening about that. Like, I'm doing it right now. It's just. It's here. But Rupert would say, like, if you ask someone to list the contents of this room, they would say couches and people. But no one would say, the space that's in the Dao de Ching. It's like, you know, the vase, the shape. But it's the empty space that makes it, you know, useful. Or the hub of the wheel. These ideas that it looks like nothing to the mind. It's not an object that we can behold. Or that's why we go, like, what are you even talking about? The mind doesn't get to come. But Rupert would say in the same way that this space is the same space as homeboy. It's also the same space between the rings of Saturn. There's one space. And he says, knowing or being is like that. And you and I are momentary apparent localizations of that one space. Is this all Bible?

[A]

Sure. Of course.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just.

[A]

No, no, it makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. What I said to Richard, I go, is there only one knowing? And he goes, there has to be.

[A]

Oh, there has to be pay. You know, I think just before he went. Came. Did he come here to do it?

[B]

He did the. We did one in person. We've done two on. Yeah.

[A]

Because I was with him in Boston.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it was just such a joy to be with him.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And I think he said he was coming here.

[B]

We missed him.

[A]

We were in town. And he went. Because he was gonna do.

[B]

Yes. And he's and she's up in Santa Barbara.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

He stayed at our house on his birthday. Oh, it was one of the sweetest.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when he did my podcast, all he did. You should listen to it just for the love of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is. He's just going, you're so good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Talk about a guy who. He wouldn't. It's not that he wouldn't take the bait. He just didn't need to go like, oh, I can spin that plate, too. Yes, that's it.

[A]

Yes. Good, good.

[B]

And I was just like, what is this? No one does that. In fact, going back to what you said, when I'm with him, I go, he's just giving people what they want. I don't mean as a people pleaser. The example I always use is we're checking into a hotel. We went on this little road trip. We walk into the hotel, and he goes to the greeter. There's like a greeter in the lobby.

[A]

And he goes, there you are.

[B]

Always with your smile. Good to see you, Philip. And this guy is, like, on the verge of tears that someone is seeing him.

[A]

Yeah. He's brilliant at that. I mean. I mean, because it comes from the deepest core.

[B]

Yeah. Well, you know what? I asked him, I said, how much of that is a deep, converted understanding of our shared nature and how much of it is effort? And he was like, it's. I don't know if he said 50. 50. But he was like, you know, it comes and goes. And I was like, yeah, come on, he's the best.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's even admitting, like, sometimes. Yeah, I have to go, like, be nice.

[A]

Be good.

[B]

You know, be kind. He's trying to have that moment like I had with Leela. 45 seconds.

[A]

That's right. That's right. Yeah. But that's part of his practice. I mean, he's. He's practiced. That doesn't mean.

[B]

Doesn't cheap, fake. Yeah, it doesn't cheapen it.

[A]

Yeah. But you want to be practiced.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you want to. You want to work at it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I think. I think otherwise, you. You. You fall into the places where we all fall into.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and we get self absorbed again, you know, we get drawn back into. What about me?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know. Yeah.

[B]

Well, that. That goes. I am mindful. We have like, five more minutes, if that's okay.

[A]

Sure. That's a greater flu. I know. It always flies. It really flew.

[B]

There's a clock on that wall. If you saw my eye, 12:53. I hope you're not stressed.

[A]

No. Okay, good.

[B]

I just in, in conclusion. Stupid. I take real issue with. We're talking about practice. Right. And you did rightfully kind of sniff out that I'm going to. Is it. Is it fake? Is he trying? Is it effortful?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But isn't there something in my understanding of Jesus, his full humanity? He also made that effort. He also was practiced and choosing and seeing a choice and choosing love. And what I'm saying is another moment I saw somebody talked about the touching the hem of Jesus garment. And Jesus goes, who touched me? And the guy telling the story goes, of course Jesus knew who touched him. I said this to Richard as well. I was like, we've turned him into Superman. He knows who touched him. He knows everything. He's omniscient. He's. He's flawless. He's never lost the. The day in the temple that had to be right. When he had the bullwhip. That had to be. Okay. Just in our final moments here, do you see Jesus being like us in making these efforts and feeling annoyed, feeling lost, feeling.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I think there are a lot more examples in the gospel, you know, where he's. He's, you know, not at his best.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, well, even, you know, dogs eat the scraps under the table. That whole scene where you go, oh, no, Jesus, you went there. What are you. You know, where he didn't catch himself.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So there are those moments. But I always like that touching the hem of the thing. He doesn't. He's not, you know, nobody's saying, oh, God. Well, he knows everything. He knows what woman. And they also say there are thousands of people here touching you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's right. And who is it that, you know? Of course. How are you going to. Nobody's going to know. And for me, it's always about, you know, kind of relational wholeness. He wants to know who the person is in a sense, that have a relationship, be in relationship with.

[B]

That's the real stuff, though, I think dense right there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The question who touched me Is dense and juicy, to use our word. Knowing and knowing how it's all folding out. No yearning, no desire to connect.

[A]

Yeah. But it's not. It's not about. He's all knowing and, and of course he knows and he knows everything. You know, I think that's kind of a red herring to the relational piece.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where he just doesn't. He wants to know people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, again, that's kind of a filter that maybe you put on the thing. And maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. Works for me. And so. And that helps me to want to be in relationship, you know, and. And be holy in relationship.

[B]

But the question wasn't like a weakness, like he didn't know. The question is the yearning of.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I want connection. I want kinship. I want compassionate belonging.

[A]

But it's also a projection, years later, where they go. He has to know everything.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and that's. They're doing the best they can. And sometimes they're off. And they would be off in that moment, I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whereas Jesus is just trying to connect. Only connect. Wherever that. In some novel, it just says only connect. That's the first sentence of a paragraph.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. Anyway, I love being with you.

[B]

I love being with you. There were so many things we didn't get to. And I just wanted you to see all the notes. And we didn't even.

[A]

Actually.

[B]

We did cover a lot of these. And that's great.

[A]

Good.

[B]

Thank you for being here. Thank you for writing another book. Because last I saw, you said you were done.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this last one is a real gift.

[A]

Yeah. But I am done now.

[B]

You can be done now. Richard said he was done, too, but.

[A]

He was with Universal Christ.

[B]

He put out two since then.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So you have one. One more at least.

[A]

Yeah. No, I don't think so. No more books. Read my lips.

[B]

As silly as it is. Will you say, keep it crispy? It's just how the guest signs off the show. You say, keep it crispy.

[A]

Keep it crispy. I remember that.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Thank you very.