Jay Jurden

Summary

You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes

Guest: Jay Jurden

Release Date: June 25, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features comedian Jay Jurden in a wide-ranging, quick-witted, and candid conversation with Pete Holmes. Together, they dive into comedy craft, fashion, masculinity, queerness, adolescence, sexuality, X-Men, spirituality, and the universal human need for connection and self-acceptance. Both comedians share deeply personal anecdotes alongside cultural observations, all with a spirit of curiosity, warmth, and irreverence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Fashion, Identity, and “Ugly Shoe” Trends

• Gorpcore and Fashion Co-Option

  • Jay and Pete discuss the rise of “gorpcore,” where outdoor and utilitarian clothing becomes trendy in streetwear, and how fashion cyclically appropriates workwear like carpenter pants.
  • Jay: “There is this beautiful sort of like event horizon that happens with what I kind of just call unassuming white guys and fashion... you want what you want. I want like any kind of unassuming older white guy to have like a happy fashion accident.” (03:00)

• Color and Perception

  • Viola Davis’s yellow dress becomes a springboard for discussing how fashion, color, and skin tone intersect with cultural perceptions.

Stand-Up Comedy Craft

• Comedy Styles and Overwriting

  • Jay explains his tendency to overwrite, then scale back jokes for optimal laughter—a trait he shares with other punchline-focused comics.
  • Pete admires Jay’s “Gatling gun” of jokes and how he brings audiences beyond surface premises:
    • “Most specials I watch and I go, that’s it? ... When I watch you, I’m like, oh, this dude, you figured it out.” (08:18)

• Inspiration from ‘Crashing’

  • Jay credits Pete’s work on the show “Crashing” as formative in his early NYC stand-up, paralleling his own journey.
    • “You as a character on Crashing, and then also as a comedian... if I ever get the chance to tell people—so then when I did Corden and we met, I was like, that’s right, enjoys it.” (09:34)

• The Quirks of Late Night

  • They reflect on the complexities and freedoms of doing stand-up versus panel, the differences in censorship, and the pressure of late-night TV.

Body Image, Sexuality, & Media

• Hollywood Beauty & “Rat Summer”

  • Jay and Pete joke about discourse around unconventionally attractive leading men, how handsomeness, “bird face” (Ryan Gosling), and unique features become desirable.
  • Jay: “Now, do you remember what happened? ... there was rat summer. So every leading man was—they were like, these guys kind of look like rats.” (06:18)
  • The discussion drifts into the eroticization of “the interesting,” and the recurring theme of “dead hot”—the allure of former stars, old porn, and nostalgia.

• Secret Adolescent Sexuality

  • They swap stories of childhood and teenage experiences of horniness, longing, shame, and makeshift erotica—Playboy hidden in the bed, History Channel’s “History of Sex,” comic book characters dressed provocatively.
  • Jay: “My argument in regards—and connected to that is—that’s also why some people still love tan lines. Some people still love amateur stuff... that’s why people are still looking at the classics.” (24:27)

• AI Porn vs. Human Connection

  • Pete and Jay express discomfort with AI-generated sexual images, noting the enduring erotic power of real, flawed, and even “gone” people.

• Queerness in Pop Culture & Trickster Archetypes

  • An exploration of how queer energy, crossdressing, and ambiguity have appeared as “trickster” elements in myth and pop culture—Bugs Bunny, Loki, Little Richard, Divine, Prince.
  • Jay: “So that devious sort of duplicity, secretive nature... every trickster deity is still connected to the way they look at the devil currently now.” (34:15)

Comedy, Vulnerability, and Community

• Male Loneliness & the Need for Intimacy

  • Pete observes the persistent loneliness many men face, the cultural barriers to male-male emotional connection, and the ways toxic online communities have filled the void.
  • Both reflect on their own adolescent and adult need for homosocial closeness, the “male loneliness epidemic,” and the value of nonsexual, soul-bonded friendships.
  • Jay: “If you have a relationship with someone who you care about and you don’t have sex, but you do have moments where you go, I love you so much... that doesn’t exist as much for guys, young guys right now.” (60:30)

• Homosociality, Initiations, and Shame

  • They dissect the awkward rituals of adolescence—youth group meetings about “lust,” locker-room bravado, even hazing rituals like “Limp Biscuit”—and frame them as proof of societal attempts to “forged by the fire... and still follow the rules.” (50:36)
  • Pete: “You can go into the fire and come back. ... You won’t be tricked by the gay ass, but you’re not scared of him.” (50:52)

Fluidity & Acceptance in Sexuality

• Queer, Bi, “Homo-flexible” Identities

  • Jay talks frankly about his bisexual identity, open marriage, and the expanding definitions of masculinity and queerness among gay men—“the coldest bi’s” and “homo-flexible” as evolving terms.
  • Jay: “For a lot of gay guys... sometimes jerking off or giving a blowjob, it feels very much like a handshake... it’s just skin, we’re kind of just being naked together and everyone's destigmatized.” (112:05)

• Fire Island and Sexual Norms

  • They illustrate the open, communal, and sometimes chaotic sexuality in contemporary queer spaces (like Fire Island), contrasting the more guarded, rule-bound dynamics of straight couples—often with great humor.

Spiritual Reflections & The Meaning of Life

• Entropy as Oneness
  • Jay eloquently ties his spiritual view to the concept of entropy:
    • “There is a beauty in entropy... at the end of all this... I will be reduced back to whatever components and elements I came from... It’s not nothing, it’s everything—but just in such tiny little parts that we're going to be spread out amongst it.” (117:45–119:20)
• Universal Connection through Service
  • Jay reflects on his mother’s loving, inclusive form of Christianity, rooted in service, and the value of enjoying embodiment:
    • “Of course my mom’s God is real ... serving people while you’re here is such a beautiful and selfless act...” (121:41–124:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Saturn Returns in Fashion:
  “There is this beautiful sort of like event horizon that happens with what I kind of just call unassuming white guys and fashion...” —Jay (03:00)

• On Adolescence & Sexuality:
  "I can still remember. I was a freshman. There was a senior girl. She wore a T-shirt... at that point, you’re like, forget it." —Jay (43:30)
  “I was hard 70% of high school.” —Pete (43:19)

• On Comedy Craft:
  "Most specials I watch and I go, that’s it? ... When I watch you, I’m like, oh, this dude, you figured it out.” —Pete (08:18)
  “I have a tendency to overwrite... Let me scale it back to peak laugh. But I have more if you ever want it.” —Jay (07:55)

• On Tricksters and Queerness:
  “So that devious sort of duplicity, secretive nature... every trickster deity is still connected” —Jay (34:15)
  “Pan was a horny goat god. He was a god of horniness... Well, that’s why they call pansexuals. That’s it.” —Jay (35:13)

• On Male Friendship and Loneliness:
  “All I was doing was competing with them and kind of like bragging ... that’s not relationship.” —Pete (66:04)
  “If you have a relationship with someone who you care about and you don’t have sex, but you do have moments where you go, I love you so much... that doesn’t exist as much for guys, young guys right now.” —Jay (60:30)

• On X-Men, Mutations, and Puberty:
  “It’s connected to what we talked about earlier. It’s puberty. So a lot of X genes manifest at puberty. So you're going through the most stressful time ever.” —Jay (104:38)

• On Meaning of Life & Spirituality:
  “There is a beauty in entropy. ... At the end of all this... I will be reduced back to whatever components and elements I came from.” —Jay (117:45–119:20)
  "If we're the lens, the light that shines through us, the prism that's created, that's your relationship with the divine." —Jay (127:41)

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Essential Timestamps

• Fashion & Gorpcore: [01:27–05:08]
• Comedy Craft & Influences: [07:55–10:58]
• Queer Artistry, Tricksters, and Camp: [31:23–37:20]
• Adolescent Sexuality, Nostalgia, Old Porn: [24:19–26:20]
• Male Friendship & Homosociality: [48:09–61:11]
• Loneliness, Emotional Vulnerability in Men: [65:17–69:22]
• Fire Island & Queer Sexual Norms: [112:04–116:38]
• Meaning of Life - Entropy & Oneness: [117:45–121:41]

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Episode Vibes & Tone

The conversation flows with Nick Offerman-level warmth, classic Pete Holmes goofiness, and Jay’s affirming, investigatory humor. Both comedians are open about vulnerability, confusion, and desire for connection—never shying away from taboo but always centering joy, curiosity, and the fundamental weirdness of being human.

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For New Listeners

If you want a masterclass in honest, progressive, laugh-filled conversation about everything from adolescent shame to comedy nerd craft, from gay orgies to the meaning of life, this episode is a wonderful entry point. Jay Jurden’s and Pete Holmes’ openness makes even the weirdest topics accessible and humane.

Transcript

[A]

You made it with. You made it weird. You made it with. Oh, yeah, you made it weird. Yes, you did. You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[B]

What's happening, weirdos? I am so glad you are here for the hilarious Jay Jerden. I love Jay. He is so funny. Where have you seen Jay? You've seen him on the Tonight show with Jimmy Fallon. He's been on James Corden. In fact, we are in Corden the the same time, which is how I first saw him, and he absolutely murdered. He's also been on hbo, Comedy Central, Apple tv. He's got a album called J Jurden, y'. All. And also follow him on social media. It's just his name. J G, J U R D N J, U R, D E N, J Jordan. He's so funny, and I loved this conversation and I'm so glad y' all are here. Only a couple things to plug up top for me. It's my tour. I am going to be in LA this Saturday on June 28, followed by Houston. We're rescheduling Michigan. I'm sorry, Royal Oak. We are moving that, but that will be rescheduled. Los Angeles is after that, D.C. boston, Massachusetts, Portsmouth, New Hampshire, Spokane, Washington, St. Louis, Cleveland, Chicago, Pennsylvania, and Atlantic City. And we'll be adding New York City on there as well. All those are available on peteholmes.com. so glad you're here. I love this chat. J. Jerdan, y', all indeed. Get into it.

[A]

I like these, right? I really love these. There's a new. So I want to say North Face and paraboot. Maybe it's North Face. I don't know. Maybe it's J. Crew.

[B]

Can we clear the roll on this?

[A]

There's a new. There's a new. You're. You're on trend. I am. You're on trend.

[B]

We need to roll it and sort.

[A]

Of sort of make taking a big swing.

[B]

Is that right?

[A]

Yes. So this style of shoe, this sort of, like, quilted moccasin, it became really cool over the past two years.

[B]

Is that right?

[A]

Yeah. So North Face came out with one paraboot, has a collab.

[B]

This is Teva.

[A]

Okay. So Teva and any sort of gorpcore utility.

[B]

Gorpcore?

[A]

Gorpcore.

[B]

Good old raisins and peanuts.

[A]

Is that what that means? No. Gorpcore now has been adopted by a bit of streetwear kind of aesthetic people where everyone who's obsessed with Arterics and obsessed with, like, anything Gore Tex and water resistant, very Pacific Northwest kind of feel, and outdoor kind of faux utility. It Became super popular. Yes. So right now, it's not the first.

[B]

Time fashion has co opted like carpenter pants are like, yeah, all right.

[A]

See, I ain't got no hammer.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I.

[B]

There was one that had the big.

[A]

The double knees. The double knees, the reinforced knees.

[B]

Well, wasn't that called like minor?

[A]

Well, there's like a pain of pants. Then there's like a minor pan. And then like if they're very tiny, like they're minor pants. But then.

[B]

All of everything in Gap kids are minor pants. That's all we have is minor pants.

[A]

But there is this beautiful sort of like event horizon that happens with what I kind of just call unassuming white guys and fashion. And they go, wait a second, wait a second. I got two minutes.

[B]

I'm here for this, by the way. That's it, that's it. This is strictly fashion. Yes, not fashion. I'm sorry, function. This is strictly function. My wife, who you will meet on the way out, she got a pair. I also have them in yellow. And I want to know what you feel.

[A]

No, we like a big swing. We like a pop of color. We like a big swing. There's so Viola Davis. Every now and then she wears yellow on the red carpet. And because she's such a beautifully melanated dark skinned black woman, yellow on her. Every comment is always like, it's crazy how she invented the color yellow.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because she looks so stunning in it. And every time anyone a little bit paler than Viola Davis even tries to wear yellow on the red carpet, everyone goes, you look sick.

[B]

Yep, that's right. That's right. I just, I'm doing. I was shooting this movie with a lot of East Asians. So like Indian, Pakistani. And the way that this. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but I was looking at the way brown you. Golden brown, you're like, it'll give you the chills. You're like, that's just right. It just looks better.

[A]

But you.

[B]

I don't want to say it looks better. That's pejorative. But you know what I'm saying. I was appreciating how good it looked.

[A]

There's a fun kind of like play, but white guys with blue eyes, they get the blue shirt. And every. Yes, every time. That's our move.

[B]

That's our one move.

[A]

That's the move.

[B]

That's our move.

[A]

And you kind of just like look at people like Basilisk and try to like make sure they know you go, look, you see what's Going on. You don't get to blink for the whole time.

[B]

That's our little, tiny, tiny, tiny effort. I'm. I love that you just are leaning into my. I am. That's why I said I'm here for it. Basic kind of white guy.

[A]

But that's what you want. You want, I want this. But you want what you want. I want like any kind of unassuming older white guy to have like a happy fashion accident.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's sort of like workwear came back. Not being as kind of stuffy and pretentious came back.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

There is a lot of things that, like anyone now kind of over the age of 40, if you go, oh, this is my favorite shirt, people go, you look great in it. And because there's like a lived in kind of worn feel. Yes. It makes it fashion now.

[B]

Yeah. That's interesting.

[A]

So.

[B]

So I have another pair of shoes that are real ugly. Real ugly. And my wife actually. Dude, she forbid me. She didn't forbid me. She very playfully was like, I think you need to stop. And then somebody was like, that's actually very in right now. And then I was like, really? And they go, ugly shoes are in. And I was like, oh, okay. I don't know if I want to be in this line. I think this might be a mistake.

[A]

I mean, the thing that it's close to maybe last summer and this happens. This happens when I guess people are trying to find ways to compliment non conventionally attractive leading men in Hollywood. Now, do you remember what happened? So last summer there was an entire write up about brat summer, but a little bit before that there was rat summer. So every leading man was. They were like, these guys kind of look like rats.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Timothy. Timothy Chalamet.

[B]

Chalamet.

[A]

Mike Face, who was in Challengers, Josh o', Connor, who was also in Challengers, and Paul Mescal. They were saying that these men while handsome. Yes, there is a mouse, like.

[B]

But you don't. It turns out you don't want straight handsome. I don't straight handsome.

[A]

No, but you do.

[B]

Straight handsome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You do want straight handsome, but again, I mean like middle of the. Of the bullseye.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You want interesting.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Ryan Gosling is kind of. He's my favorite. I mean, he's on the wall. He's kind of. I don't know how to say it. Left of center is what I'll say. I was going to say odd, but by odd I mean why am I. I can't stop looking at it.

[A]

I'm going to say He's, He's. There's a. An avian quality to his face. A little. A little bird. A little bird.

[B]

Bird face.

[A]

And that is striking. It inspires, like, leadership qualities.

[B]

People go out into Prospect park with binoculars to look at birds, and then it turns out Hollywood, like, look at that bird.

[A]

They go, wait a second. Yeah, there. We love birds.

[B]

You want an avian quality. And Adam Driver, of course, looks like a Siamese cat. Sort of.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But so, like, but remember, I'm older than you. I think I'm old. I mean, only.

[A]

I mean, barely.

[B]

Is that right? Yeah, I just assume. So much energy.

[A]

You'll never know.

[B]

When I watch your stand up dude, for real, I'm like, yes, I love it. And it's a Gatling gun. That's what feels youthful about it to me is like, obviously you're having fun, but you're also like, I'm not tired. I'm not. I'm not. Like, I can think of more jokes.

[A]

Yeah. I have a tendency to overwrite. Like, I'll talk to Matthew Broussard, and he and I both have this kind of, like, tendency to be like, tag this. Tag. Okay. Actually, basically we'll go, this is the line. And kind of the Jay Leno quality of like, I've overwritten this and now let me scale it back to peak. Laugh. But I have more if you ever want it.

[B]

I love that Scale it back, like, landscape.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Truly let it overgrow. But too many. Look, I say this all the time on the podcast when we talk about stand up. Most specials I watch and I go, that. That's it. I'll even watch that on myself. Yeah, that's my main criticism of myself is I'm like, you brought us into this room. That's the premise. And all you did was pick this up and then put it back down. And then we left the room. And when I watch you, I'm like, oh, this dude, you figured it out.

[A]

That means so much to me from a theater background. But then also, like, and this is. This is the first time anyone knows about this. So you're part of the reason I started standup in New York City.

[B]

No way.

[A]

So I started stand up around the same time as crashing, and there were multiple instances where I was doing mics at the Grizzly Pair yard. Just shot a couple scenes of the Grizzly Pair. I was going up doing mics. You were going up on in the series doing mics. I. I wasn't at the Cellar yet. I saw your seller audition.

[B]

You were there when we taped it. No, my real one.

[A]

No, the one in. No, no, no. The one in the show.

[B]

The one in the show.

[A]

The one in the show. I was doing NACA right after you did naca, I got a bunch of college gigs. When you did the college gigs, I. I eventually did warm up for a show I was writing for. I didn't warm up when I was writing on the promo.

[B]

Now you're on Daily, right?

[A]

No, I was on the promo. Jon Stewart on Apple TV plus. And I did warm up there after seeing you kind of do. There were all these, like, little fun moments. And so you as a character on Crashing, and then also as a comedian. So it's so funny because then I was like, oh, my God. And, like, you also loved X Men, So there were all these moments. I was like, yes. I was like, if I ever get the chance to tell people. So then when I did Cordon and we met, I was like, that's right. Enjoys it.

[B]

And you had an amazing.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

You're really good at late night, and I think. Think it's, like, one of those hard things to talk about. Meaning I don't get a lot of opportunities to talk about it because not a lot of people are really good at late night. It's like, a weird skill to do five or whatever it is, six months on late night. The pressure is so high. I didn't say this, obviously, but I'm, like, feeling for you. I think I was doing panel.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, you're doing panel. You got to do the couch. You got to have fun.

[B]

I was like, girl. I was like, it's true.

[A]

That's true, though. That is true.

[B]

You graduate, meaning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When you do it, you don't even.

[A]

Think, oh, my God.

[B]

You don't even worry about it.

[A]

Because on the couch, it's so. So I've done late night three different. No, four different times. Yeah. I did Fallon three times. I did Cordon. And the craziest part is on the couch. So many of the rules, specifically from Standards and Practices, go out of the window.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they just do not care. Jimmy Fallon, when I was on Fallon and he was asking Theo James about his dick on White Lotus, and I was like, what?

[B]

I mean, that's right.

[A]

Y' all made me clap my lesbian joke. You're asking Theo James about his cock scene.

[B]

I don't remember a cock scene in White Lotus.

[A]

Well, okay, so not this past one. The previous one.

[B]

I remember balls in the first scene, and I always do fake balls.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Can I get a Take on this. Yeah, I'm gonna chime in first.

[A]

Yeah, show me the real balls. Yeah, just show me the real balls.

[B]

It's always fake balls, but balls are a little weird.

[A]

We had real dick on your show.

[B]

We had real dick on your show.

[A]

We had real dick.

[B]

And you know what we got shit for? People were like, show a vagina. Like, that's what people were like, okay, show a vagina. Women were like, we want equal representation.

[A]

They literally said, us two. Us two. Please, us two. Not me. Show a labybia, but us two.

[B]

And like, not like a, you know, playboy centerful. Labyrinty. We want like a.

[A]

This is it, you know, like a real.

[B]

A real one.

[A]

Kind of like uneven a little bit.

[B]

We want it to look like it just got out of the rain, like it got smeared by a magical gnome and ran away.

[A]

There wasn't there anymore. I was of the. I was of the True blood. I was in late college, maybe early grad school, whenever true blood was popping off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I legitimately thought there was a mandate from the higher ups at HBO that for every pair of tits they show, they had to show one dick or, like a guy's butt. Because true blood was so bisexual and so balanced. It was like, here's some tits. Yeah, here's some guys. Yeah, here's some tits. Yeah, some guys.

[B]

That's right. We want it all for vampires.

[A]

Yeah. Empires, vampires.

[B]

Oh, vampires.

[A]

Vampires are very bisexual because everyone has blood. Yes. And the neck.

[B]

The neck fighting. I was watching. I watched the pee wee documentary. Do you watch that?

[A]

No, but I've heard nothing but good, beautiful things about it.

[B]

Really good.

[A]

And all of my friends, this happens, Pete. This happens with every gay documentary. All of. All of gay Twitter and all of gay Instagram goes, by the way, Paul Rubens. What's up? Yeah.

[B]

No, he looked good.

[A]

Back in the day.

[B]

He was dreaming.

[A]

They go, I'm trying to get in that playhouse.

[B]

Yes. We're gonna do some stuff on Cherry.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. I don't know.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

That's what I. Yeah, the magic word.

[B]

Cherry.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

I sit on my face.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm jealous of Cherry sitting on her face.

[A]

God, yeah.

[B]

Yeah, he looked dreamy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that also goes back to Gosling and Adam Driver. He looks interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think you show. You know where the exception is, is Denzel, because he's got that. He's perfect.

[A]

But then I like looking. Still has at the time. Denzel was, like, young and kind of hot headed. So.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There is an element of danger that takes away. You can't be like that perfect and sweet.

[B]

No.

[A]

You kind of have to like Liv Schreiber does like a very animalistic sort of like go, that's a man. Yeah, he's hot, but kind of scary.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, scary.

[A]

John Bernthal, perfect, except for his nose is a little.

[B]

It looks like he got in a fight.

[A]

Yeah. So that's why everyone's like, please punish me, please.

[B]

No, absolutely. John Barenthal. Val and I, well, we love John Barenthal. And Val noticed that every scene he does. Not every scene. A lot of times. And this is probably typecast. It's not like he's. Whatever. I'm just making sure he doesn't think I'm dragging him here. He does scenes where he's giving very, very high stakes news, but he's being very casual about it. So he's eating pizza and he's like, you like Hawaiian pizza? Yeah, Hawaiian pizza's pretty good. Listen, there are two snipers over there and they have. They're trained on you right now and they're gonna spill your blood all over the salad bar.

[A]

Do you want something at the salad bar?

[B]

And he starts getting croutons and you're like, that's what you want. He's cool, easy, calm, high stakes. But eating pizza. It's Brad Pitt eating, always eating.

[A]

I even think he has occupied a new role now. He's always really dreamy. But dead brother or ex boyfriend. Like he in the Bear. Oh, he's dead because he's dead. He's. This is sad. He's so much hotter because he's dead and everything's hot.

[B]

I know. Dead hot.

[A]

Oh my God. We don't have anymore.

[B]

We got dead hot.

[A]

I need it.

[B]

It's like when paintings become more valuable after you're dead.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So does that ass.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Dead hot here anymore dead.

[A]

It's the ephemeral state of this whole thing that we're doing.

[B]

I'm thinking of some real life examples. I'm not going to say a single one of them.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I know you will. Dead high.

[A]

Like any, any, any porn performer from the 80s and 90s. When I look at that kind of like very 70s, like early 80s porn. The fact that so many of them aren't here anymore or don't look like that anymore. It's a time capsule and it's hot.

[B]

I know what you're talking about. I. It's not my thing. I would tell you if it was, but sometimes you see really old porn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like, you know.

[A]

Are you talking about, like, on urns?

[B]

Yeah, on an urn. You know, you go to Pompeii, you see some shit. Can you imagine if you looked at a. Like a ancient Greek glass and you were like. You took it to the bathroom.

[A]

Hey, confession. Confession. Growing up and figuring out what was going to be my sexuality, every now and then, the History Channel would have a series called the History of Sex.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it would. And they would get away with showing some. They were just some bawdy stuff because of history. So then. So the titties were never censored. The penis etchings and the penis drawings were never censored. The butts, yes. Never censored.

[B]

I remember being a kid and drawing shit because I was so desperate. I was, like, taking a guess. My boobs didn't even have nipples. Could I. I'd never seen one.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

There you go. It's something like that.

[A]

Some of the first things that I remember being like, oh, that's naughty. Like, and this kind of gets to shared interest. So because of the pulp nature of American comics from the 50s, 60s into the 70s and 80s, a lot of Marvel art and DC art was so sexual. Oh, my God. You look at the old Ms. Marvel suit. The warbird. The warbird suit. That's just.

[B]

It's erotic.

[A]

A tiny one.

[B]

It's like Borat.

[A]

That is, like, just right down the middle. Yep. If you go, she's finding crime in that.

[B]

That's why Comic Con is still. I'm like, oh, yeah. Like, I go, like, I can't.

[A]

Well, you.

[B]

It's too much.

[A]

And because the people that cosplay, their dedication to cosplay is that they go, well, I have to look like this. And you go, okay.

[B]

I was actually thinking about you this morning because I'm like, okay, I bet we're going to talk about. I love talking about, like, I don't know, on a queer culture or whatever you want to say, sexuality, sexual identity. And my daughter put a bracelet, and I liked it. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna ask Jay. I was like, how much do straight. Nor. When I say normal, I mean like basic boring. Boring. That's what I mean. I don't mean normal. I mean boring. Just sort of like cracker barrel. Straight guys love having daughters. Because, like, my. My girl will put something kind of like. And it.

[A]

It's fun. I'm sparkly.

[B]

I got a sparkle.

[A]

Now there's a play. And joy and whimsy and that is robbed from a lot of stray.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

Hetero.

[B]

You're hearing me.

[A]

Super traditional men, any sort of sparkle is robbed.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Anything that's, like, saturated. The fact that y' all got to take, like, blue, like, highlighter, blue back is, like, a big deal.

[B]

No. And pink.

[A]

Yeah, Pink.

[B]

I remember when pink was a big. No. No. And to quote Gary Goman, I grew up in Boston where Sprite was considered to be homosexual. Sprite. If you drink Sprite. This is Gary Goman. He was like. I grew up in Boston, too. If you drank Sprite, There was something off about. Something's wrong with that boy.

[A]

God, that's funny. Yeah. You gotta drink caffeinated. It's fruity.

[B]

It's literally fruity.

[A]

Sprite. Okay. Are you a tiny, magical creature? Are you a sprite? That's right.

[B]

It's a sprite. Yeah, it's a sprightly. It's lemons and limes. It's two fruits together.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

I'm not even trying to think.

[A]

Not the way God intended. No. Adam and Eve, not lemons and limes. But no, I.

[B]

Seven up is straighter.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Seven up is straighter.

[A]

Seven up yours. Seven up yours.

[B]

That's aggressive.

[A]

Yeah, seven Up. The seven up, like, character was like, that little spot with the sunglasses.

[B]

And he had a video game. That's right. He was an asshole.

[A]

Oh, he did have a video game.

[B]

He had a video game on the Genesis.

[A]

I remember that video. That was hard.

[B]

It was a hard game.

[A]

That's back when video games. Now, video games are hard, but they're expansive in their RPGs. Video games used to be so hard. You'd be like, I'm on level two. It's just a map. It's an. It's a. It's. It's this. It just goes this way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's tough.

[B]

You're on a voyage.

[A]

You'd go.

[B]

If you beat it, you'd call a friend. Because it was like.

[A]

And then you'd find out. Now, in 2025, Pete Homes, we were finding out. They'd be like, well, actually, you have to play this part backwards. What?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.

[A]

What. And I watched you were playing parts backwards. In the 90s, I couldn't.

[B]

Yeah, I remember this. Zelda 2 Impossible.

[A]

Yeah. There were moments on Crash Bandicoot, I was like, well, he.

[B]

Crash Bandicoot wasn't fair.

[A]

I was like, in Cortex, he wins.

[B]

I'm telling you.

[A]

I don't got enough Wampa Fruit. Okay, I need an aku. AKU mask. You knew the fruit. I know the fruit. Crash Bandicoot. A sexy, shirtless Australian. You think I went locked in.

[B]

Oh, my God. Well, that brings it. MAD magazine used to be really erotic to me. That's what we were talking about.

[A]

Sexy comic book. I will.

[B]

Let's put a pin in that. We won't forget that. I was going to say, you can tell video games and just life in general. We've seen, like. Look, I'm not saying things aren't horrible everywhere and difficult everywhere, but there has been like, there is one line that's kind of going out. Comfort ease.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Internet has made things smoother. Yeah. And video games used to be. What I'm saying is modern video games, they. They have a. It's like a distress threshold. Like they, they. That's one of the metrics.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is it colorful enough? Is it fun enough?

[A]

Is it hard?

[B]

But not too hard. Like they're measuring it and they'll fix it. Then you watch like Krusty the Clown video game where you're getting the rats to leave the funhouse and you're like, this is death. This is death. And nobody tested it.

[A]

They talk about like the Lion King video game, the Aladdin video game, a lot of the early Sonic video games. Toomba. There are all these video games that now it's so. There's a sense of verisimilitude. They go, oh, this is so real. Red Dead Redemption. Oh, this is so real. All the gospel of war games now are just so real and realistic and Assassin's Creed. But yeah, the games to. To us, when the stakes were not that high.

[B]

Harder, harder, harder games, they didn't care because it. Well, arcade started. It was supposed to be hard to make you pay more. So then they start adapting them to the home console. But now home console is like, we actually want them to be engaged longer, not challenged. So they keep playing. We just make the game longer. But that also you could break it down to like, memory.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like the game couldn't be that big because you have.

[A]

Now they can store it infinitely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Up there, that's a cloud or whatever. That's. To me, it was the craziest thing. I was getting my nephew and my niece, like, presents for Christmas and so many video. This is the first, I think was maybe two years ago. They're like, no, you're going to buy this thing. That's all of the information online for you to get the game. And I was like. But I was such a Very millennial. I said, but where's the disc?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's not even.

[B]

Where's the instructions?

[A]

They said, there's not a disc in here.

[B]

I remember that feeling the morning of, like, the art.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Where's the art?

[A]

Yeah, where is it? I want something on the disc that I can put in to these two.

[B]

Yeah. My brother's still that way. He's a physical media guy. He wants it.

[A]

I just went to a bookstore and it was Beautiful to see CDs and vinyls and old magazines. And so that was like, kind of like, oh, okay, I see people harp on this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Object totems. They have a thing. Yeah, like a mag. When you said magazine, I was like, yeah, my. I had a Playboy magazine that I hid in the lining. You know how this has a lining? I cut the lining and put it in between the springs and the lining. And like, if you.

[A]

I was like, listen, so there's two snipers.

[B]

You're going to want to put it up there. Get the c. Yeah, exactly. And if you saw the ritualized eroticism of me getting it out, it would be like life is a mist. You know what I mean? It was very different from just typing in. Jiggling ass gif and just being done. I was like, I'd, like, put an ear out. Like, is everyone asleep?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I close the door.

[A]

I get something in front of the door.

[B]

Exactly. Of course, I'm putting like a cup on the hand on the doorknob.

[A]

It'll fall off.

[B]

I'm like an assassin. And then.

[A]

And it made it.

[B]

I'm gonna say something. I really want to see what you get off this.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It made it hotter. It made it sexier.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It made it.

[A]

My argument in regards. And connected to that is. That's also why some people still love tan lines. Some people still love amateur stuff. Some people love an unexpected, non streamlined, sort of like old school approach to eroticism and sexuality. That's. I mean, that's why people are still looking at the classics.

[B]

Yep. The classics. I agree. I. I saw some AI. Like, it wasn't. I wouldn't necessarily call it full porn. It was like a video. But it was an image that I saw online and I was looking at it. I was like, this is weird. The computer is, like going into our brain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It has all of our data and it's like, you want this? And it was like, yeah, but also, I'm not even saying it was gross or repulsive or anything, but there was something. I was like, when you watch it. Like you said, I think we might be having similar experiences. Like, these people are dead.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? Like, there's a very human. Like, when I was saying the old, old, old, old, old porn, I was like, these women are in nursing homes or they're gone. And they're almost like a.

[A]

Look at them.

[B]

They're so. They're alive.

[A]

They're there.

[B]

And that informed it.

[A]

That is the human experience. I think if there's an allotted amount of time, you get to kind of go through all of this. There is a beauty in the finite nature of that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And some. Sometimes when everything becomes this series of ones and zeros. Now anything can be put into an image and made to talk to you. So now, like, you can. You can type in anything on the computer and you can see it, and you kind of go, well, no, because sometimes I want to be surprised by what I'm seeing.

[B]

I think the most erotic thing is an unexpected. It. Like, that's part of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're just like. You didn't even know that was gonna happen. I was walking down Vermont, and I looked into. It's not the Dresden, but it's one of these clubs over here, and they have, like, a burlesque.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Burlesque night. And nobody. This wasn't me peeping. It was just a window. And there were girls changing for the burlesque show. And I just saw a bunch of naked people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, I think that's the hottest thing that's ever happened to me because I was just walking my dog and I'm like an erotic scream.

[A]

So my husband and I, when we go to Miami every now and then. And if you're in Miami and you watch this, maybe you'll see us.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Go to the nude beach. It's the nude beach in Miami. Haulover Park. It is so beautiful because it is people who want to be naked, but because everyone's so used to, like, oh, this is just kind of a flat image. I'm seeing a naked person on Twitter. I'm seeing a naked person on whatever website. When you see naked people in real life that you don't expect to see naked.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It, like, triggers a bunch of middle school hormonal responses that aren't just like, arousal, but also, like, we're naked. Are we supposed to. What? Everything.

[B]

It's exhilarating.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It feels skiing alive.

[B]

It feels alive.

[A]

Yes. Yes. I also think skiing is a trick we played on rich people for them to get injured. Cause every Every rich person I know has almost died.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

They've really almost died.

[B]

For real.

[A]

It's like a repurposing. It's crazy.

[B]

Robin Williams had a joke. He said, cocaine is God's way of telling you you have too much money. I would say skiing is also a sign that like you don't have enough danger in your life.

[A]

Cause skiing is. I want to go downhill fast. And they go, tre forgot about those.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You think you would stop?

[A]

Woo. Right?

[B]

I never. I'm white, but I'm not that kind of white.

[A]

That's why we get long. That is why we get long. I can, I can tell the ski.

[B]

I'm not ski white.

[A]

I could tell the ski, cuz they'll say something. I'll go, really?

[B]

Yeah. There's just like a, there's a, a.

[A]

Person that skis every now and then they'll use only as a qualifier about a certain amount of money. And I'll go, okay.

[B]

When they say like only 10 grand.

[A]

I'll go, I heard that. I go, yeah, okay. You can't sneak that one past me. I don't care how much hamachi crudo we share at this restaurant. I know that you have a lot. You got some money in your pocket.

[B]

That's a great observation. I remember Birbiglia told when I was doing the show at Housing Works in New York. So this is before crashing or anything like that. So probably had about $300.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? Like that's a normal amount of money to have. I threw. Plus, you know, you paid your rent, you got 300. Yeah, I'm watching Birbiglia and I, I, this is not putting Birbiglia down. But he told this.

[A]

Put him down. When I'm gonna put him down. Put him down.

[B]

Oh yeah, Any, any press is good. Oh yeah, check it out. But he, he does, he got in a car accident. It's a true story. And it was the other guy's fault. And then he like was the guy who was drunk who T boned him, asked for $10,000. And the story is really like a rock and a hard place. There's nothing they can do. And they go like, I think we just have to give the guy $10,000. And I'm in the crowd and all I'm thinking is you have $10,000.

[A]

You go, what?

[B]

I still go like, you have $10,000. If somebody says only $10,000 on you. I've hung out with some really rich people and you'll See, they pepper their. Their language and their stories with these little flexes that they don't even acknowledge as flexes.

[A]

Oh, no, no.

[B]

They're just like. So we got every entree or whatever. She's like, what? What was that?

[A]

Is what. It's when you. And as a comedian, like, as you continue to like, succeed and have more opportunities, like, you kind of realize what numbers mean to certain people and, like, how people talk about it. But every now and then, even on, like, even on the level that I'm at right now, you get humbled. You go to one apartment in New York City and you walk in. Yes. And they go, oh, this is all of us. And you go, wait, so this floor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, that's true. And that's what makes money and power such a drug. It becomes. Again, I. I won't well talk about it. I don't think it might. I like, like, got to have dinner. I saw Rachel Ray's house.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, yeah.

[A]

You went, wait a second. You 30 minute meals in there?

[B]

Yes, well, you know, a line of olive oils. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

That's a brand.

[A]

Whenever you start being Empire and whenever you see your.

[B]

She's great.

[A]

Your face in Ralph's like this.

[B]

That's right. That's right. Paul Newman was giving away a lot of money.

[A]

Yes, he gave away a lot of money.

[B]

Okay, so X Men eroticism. Yeah, I think. What. What. What is going on? I'm. Here's something I'm gonna. I'm gonna put to you too. Like, it's like, culture's so confused. Yes, we're homophobic.

[A]

Yeah, sure, we're. No, we're homophobic because of a number of kind of like super Christian puritanical thoughts about sex being for procreation only. And queerness. Specifically male on male queerness is an aberration of that. I mean, the joke is like, gay sex is so good, if it was allowed, nothing would get done. And then you go, that's not true. Look at Rome. They got a lot. They got a lot done. They killed Jesus. They got a lot done.

[B]

Okay, that was on there to do.

[A]

That was. Yeah.

[B]

Wow, we're productive.

[A]

They're like, I mean, he's talking a lot. Okay. Prince of peace. We hate peace.

[B]

So. Yeah, I've never heard that.

[A]

Of gay. Gay Vikings had a bunch of gay sex.

[B]

And obviously Pee Wee was on my mind. I was like, oh, that's right. In our face. There's this magic trick that the queer Community has been doing through all of known times.

[A]

He just called us sneaky.

[B]

I'll say it.

[A]

Duplicitous. You can't trust him.

[B]

What I'm saying is the most, like, picture, like a 1950s homophobe. That's like peak homophobia. And that dude loves Little Richard.

[A]

Oh, loves Little Richard.

[B]

And then we love Elton John before he comes out.

[A]

And then we love, love Freddie Mercury.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

People looked at Freddie Mercury and George Michael and went, just amazing.

[B]

We can't stop.

[A]

I just.

[B]

Liberace, look, the list goes on and on.

[A]

But I think with Liberace and little Rich Richard. Specifically, specifically Liberace and Little Richard, the other thing that people enjoyed was that they. And this is to your point about gay people being a little tricky.

[B]

I didn't say I have a bigger Pete.

[A]

I have an even bigger sort of like, thing I'll get to. So gay people are tricky. And the way that straight audiences who are scared of homosexuality enjoy. The trick is if the gay person is asked point blank, so are you still a bachelor? And they go, yes. They.

[B]

They love it.

[A]

An audience loves. Wait a minute, we love it. There's no way they would wink about that. There's no way Richard would say things. He has these euphemisms that to me are still so funny because they're so southern and so queer. He talked about being turned on by something and he said, oh, made my big toe shoot up in my boot. Made my big toe shoot up in my boot.

[B]

Looney Tunes level. Remember when Bugs Bunny would go. And I'm like, why is that funny? But it is. That's a big toe shooting up in his boot.

[A]

Well, and connected to the queerness and the camp of it all. And why audiences love that, I think. And you brought up Bugs Bunny and it's connected to queerness. All of this is. If our roots right now are super puritanical Christian, there's something that kind of predates that, that is alive in a lot of like, I guess, like multi theistic religions. There's a trickster God. And so a lot of queer people get to occupy the role of the trickster. Oh, my gosh. Bugs Bunny is a trickster. Loki is a trickster. Hermes was a trickster. Brer Rabbit is a trickster. So that leads to Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse both being tricksters. And queer people get to sort of be avatars for that through line to something that predates Christianity when we're trickster. And so that devious sort of Duplicitous, secretive nature. It's scary because in Lucifer it meant, oh, I'm plotting against God. But every trickster deity is still connected to the way they look at the devil. Currently now. So, like, Pan had horns and goat legs. Hermes tricked people. And so it's a Nancy tricked people.

[B]

Pan can get it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

From everyone.

[A]

That's why they call Pansexuals. That's it. Yes. It's true. Is it? Yeah.

[B]

Shut up.

[A]

Pan was a horny goat God. He was a God of horniness. Pun woefully unintended. But, like, wow, truly, he was horny. Yeah. Well, because Pan was like the. The patron God of satyrs, and satyrs were known for running around chasing nymphs. Like a satyr.

[B]

We're back to Sprite.

[A]

Yeah, we're back to sprites. Satyrs are un. We'll pay. We'll pay. Jeff and David tell for that bumping mics we just did.

[B]

Oh, I know.

[A]

I didn't know.

[B]

I didn't know. I. I think we might pre date.

[A]

Okay. But there's a. There's a really funny nature to, like, being queer and being an aberrant and getting to do the things that straight audiences don't get to do. And that's why Little Richard and even, like, a little bit of Jerry Lee Lewis is there.

[B]

I was gonna say Prince, obviously.

[A]

Prince. I think that.

[B]

And you're right. These are. It was a. So mythology drag.

[A]

But it's not drag. It's you fooling this dumb man. It's Milton Berle in a drag dress.

[B]

Yeah, It's. It's.

[A]

There's so many elements. It's Eddie Murphy playing all the clumps.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's connected to queerness and connected to kind of sensible audiences going, well, what? No. What? You're not supposed to do that.

[B]

Right. But they. Okay. So mythology is like a collective dream. It's like the dream we all have. And you're right. I mean, obviously you're right, but, like, I love that you pulled rabbit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not a Brer rabbit in a minute. And like, the coyote was the. Was the animal that. Tricking. But moving the story forward, helping the hero by being. Not helpful, not being straight is what I was gonna say. Like, they're trying to go on the path and they knock them off the path and they start going. I'm not even trying to be funny. They go queer.

[A]

They go off. Yes.

[B]

They go left or right, and now they're lost or whatever it might be. But it's actually not bad. It's necessary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's the dis. It's like holy disorder.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm not saying being gay is disorder. I'm just saying.

[A]

No, but it is.

[B]

We have, like, Prince Wink.

[A]

I think Little Richard Wink. Ordering and a queering of a narrative is the best way to talk about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because so many people are kind of like, oh, well, why does America. Why is America both repulsed and obsessed with this? Why do people love. Why did people love Divine in every John Walters film and in John Waters film? And then why did people love Ursula? And Ursula was based solely on Divine.

[B]

I know, I know. And I. I actually was thinking about that recently. I was like, they could have done it. Yeah, they could have. But they could have had a drag queen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As Ursula, and that would have been pretty dope.

[A]

Yeah. Which is just as fun.

[B]

Well, I didn't see it, but I'm. I believe she did a great job. But that fascination, it's not benign. It's fascination. Pardon the interruption, weirdos. This is brought to us by one of our newest, Pete's Picks, which is. Has absolutely not only changed my life, but revolutionized my life, which is Kenobody, the makers of some supplements that are truly transforming my energy levels, my willingness, willingness, my motivation to exercise, and my decisiveness. What am I talking about? I'm talking about testosterone. There was a study that found between 1987 and 2004, men's testosterone dropped about 1% per year. That means 30 to 40% lower testosterone than their grandfathers had in the 80s. I didn't even know that was a problem. I went to my doctor, they checked it. I was normal, low. So I started taking Keno Body Mojo, and I'm like, is everything testosterone? It is a huge, huge game changer. I've noticed. I'm feeling way more motivated, way more driven, more creative. My workouts are longer and easier, and my energy is way up, up, including my blood flow and wink, wink. Everything that that could possibly mean. That's why I think one of the reasons they call it Mojo, testosterone is linked to dopamine, which is our motivational hormone. And dang, I am setting goals, I'm getting up earlier, and when I have something on my to do list, I'm full on Nike about it, I just do it. Mojo is the solution I didn't know I needed. It gives your body the vitamins and minerals it needs to produce testosterone naturally and lower cortisol, our stress hormone. That gets your mojo back. I Love all of Kenobody's products, but especially Mojo. I love Shred, I love Nitro and I love Keno Octane which is their all natural pre workout that gives you energy and euphoric focus. Try any of their products. I swear by this company they are legit. You can get 20 off at kinobody.com K-I-N-O-B-O-Y.com with your first order when you use promo code. Weird. That's 20 off at kinobody.Com we're also brought to us by our friends at Element. Speaking of working out, speaking of the hot summer months, healthy hydration is not just water. It is water and electrolytes. But so much of the 80s and 90s, an electrolyte drink meant a flat soda. Element is here to fix that. It floods every cell in your body with healthy hydration. What does that mean? It means sodium means potassium and magnesium in the perfect dialed in ratio to give you that boost to flood you with hydration to keep away fatigue, brain fog, cramps and just make you feel fantastic. For years I've been drinking Element before I do shows. I drink it first thing in the morning. It just jump starts my day. And now that we're doing all these hiking beach days workouts here in the hotter months, you need to get this in your life life. Try their lemonade salt which is available now through the summer. It's their new flavor. It is unbelievable. Even if you've tried Element in the past before and it wasn't for you. Lemonade salt is a game changer. So get healthy hydration into your life. Go to drinklmnt.com weird and you will get a free sample pack of every flavor with any purchase. That's drinklmnt.com weird. This brings me to another thing. So you brought up gay, specifically male homosexuality. And I from. For what it's worth. Yeah, I agree with you. I'm like I see that stigma being stronger meaning it's like the Schlitz gay, the SNL thing you never saw in the way that female homosexuality, which is obviously kind of like a cleaned up.

[A]

Or whatever you want to say, it's.

[B]

The, the fear, the male fantasy version of that.

[A]

Yeah. So there's a, there's a long sort of history of the in comedy too. The idea that like lesbianism is a bit easier to deal with than like guy on guy stuff. I think number one, there's the anatomical nature of like male, male penetrative sex that some people are just Gonna always be, like, super, like, disoriented by. And. Because people don't respect women's bodies, they go, oh, well, they. Lesbians don't even have sex. They just kind of, you know, kids. And you go, where are they kissing?

[B]

I just. To throw this in. I remember being a kid and one of my weird sex talks was my father was trying to help me understand how it feels. Aggressive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like, he wasn't. My father was. Is and was a great person. He wasn't saying anything untoward. He was just like, you might have to get over the fact that you're this humping, thrusting, penetrating thing. And you're kind of like, there is this sort of like, is this. Okay, I'm talking about straight shame. Like, coming to terms with just sexuality in general.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's very, like. Like, everybody poops.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, things coming out, things going in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, this is tricky for us.

[A]

It's. And it's scary because there are these kind of, like, markers that happen when you're a boy going through puberty that you really cannot hide. I mean, there's a reason why everyone knows. Kind of like, come up to the class and solve this math problem. It's like, I can't. Right.

[B]

My foot's asleep.

[A]

Yeah. I wish I could. I cannot.

[B]

If people even knew just how I'm gonna say I was. Hard 70% of high school.

[A]

Right? No. Right. Right.

[B]

This is your body.

[A]

I can still remember. I was a freshman. There was a senior girl. She wore a T shirt. First of all, the perfume she wore was, I want to say, Clinique Happy. Like, it's like that. Locked in. She wore a shirt one time, just a random ass shirt. It was like it was 2003. Like, maybe 2002. Tiny shirt. It was a shirt that was like, it barely passed wardrobe, like, inspections. Yeah. She, like, kind of put her hands up, and the shirt kind of came up. And at that point, you're like, forget it.

[B]

Forget it. It's so funny that you say that, because I remember being in math class and there were girls that. The style in the 90s, I guess, show the bra strap, and I was like. Like a cold sweat.

[A]

You're just like. Just like, obviously, this is before.

[B]

Way before I even had sex or even did anything. But it was just kind of like. Like, what am I seeing? And it's also. I think this is important to note. Pre porn.

[A]

Pre porn.

[B]

I'm not looking at porn. I don't know really what a bra.

[A]

Is, but you're Seeing a bra and you go, I know I'm not supposed to see bras, but I'm seeing one.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Me and my friend Pat. This goes back to life.

[B]

It was more. It was like edging.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was like. You know what I mean? I was like that. I saw a bra and thought about. This is going to sound absurd, but there are certain traditions where they'll teach you something profound. It might be spiritual. It might just be wisdom about life. Life. And they'll make you carve it into wood and carry it with you. So you're carrying a quote from Meister Eckhart carved in wood with you. Like the way they make teenager kids walk around with an egg.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? To learn the responsibility. So you have to, like, be, like, off put.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What is the word? Inconvenience. I guess by inconvenience, by this thing.

[A]

That you're this burden.

[B]

And I had to, like, slowly eke out, like, carrying around bras.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just think on bras, like a Buddhist teacher would be like, bras. And I'd have, like, three years of just thinking about what a bra might be. That's really erotic. It's really erotic. Then just walking into the funhouse and.

[A]

Then you see a bra and you. I remember we got. My friend Patrick Roach and I, we got in trouble because we were snapping one of our classmates bras, and we were both doing it in a way where we were like little seventh graders being annoying. But also we were horny. And, like, she told us to stop, and we stopped. And then she was like. And then she turned around, was like, I bet you won't do it again. We were like, oh, my God, what are we supposed to do? That's the craziest thing ever. Of course, we can't conjugate these verbs. We're busy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It was insane.

[B]

It's very, very horny. I wonder what it's like now.

[A]

I'm beautifully horny because maybe it's because I, like, have the. The ability to reflect. But it was like this very coming of age. Like, I kind of go, oh, everyone did have, like, this weird movie of middle school.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That I think some people now get to portray. Like, I saw Dee Dee, and that's such a beautiful example of that. Like a film. Is that a movie? Yeah, it's a beautiful movie. It was so good. And, like, a couple of other coming of age movies have done a very good job. There is this weird part of growing up where you go know is Everyone else going through. Because I am. I feel like I'm crazy right now.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Crazy horny.

[A]

Yeah. Not only just crazy horny, but, like, you said, like, I'm thinking about bras, and sometimes I'm. Sometimes I'm aroused, but sometimes I'm just like, what? Yeah, they're just like, everywhere.

[B]

I know. Well, every week in youth group, I've said this a million times. They would ask for. It's so weird. This is also. I think it feels kinky to. Yeah, it's just a group of guys sitting around being like, what are you struggling with? It's very. I'm telling you, it seems like a rot. It's a rot. It's, like, quiet, and it's like, what are you struggling? And you're like, lust.

[A]

Okay. What is this?

[B]

The opening of a dirty movie? You know what I mean?

[A]

Like, it feels like that.

[B]

And what I was saying was, and what makes it sort of sexual is there's, like, a thing that needs to be released and no one's talking about it.

[A]

And there's buildup and tension.

[B]

There's tension and buildup, but there was no release. I would just go, lust. But I wouldn't say, I can't stop jumping off. I wouldn't say, I'm obsessed with bruh. I would just be like, lust. And we never. When the youth group disbanded. We're seniors. I was like, you guys knew I meant jerking off. And they were like, here's what's fucked up, dude. They weren't like, yeah, we were too. They were like, yeah, we assumed. They didn't say, we are too. And I don't even know if they were. Which I look back and I'm like, that's crazy.

[A]

No, I think, like, the homosocial and somewhat kind of of homosexual component. Well, homosocial, basically. The idea that, like, men's, like, relationships with other men. Maybe not in a sexual way, but homoerotic.

[B]

Homo doesn't necessarily mean sexual.

[A]

Not even homoerotic. Just like being or being in the company of men, discussing manly things and discussing men's issues. For so many people and for so many kind of, like, patriarchal societies throughout the history of the world, those moments where it kind of veers into eroticism. Up until I want to say, like, mid century in America, people kind of went, yeah, you can jerk off with your boys. Here's why. We're all gonna get married one day. This is just kind of what we all do. Don't worry about it. And so there was a whole frat.

[B]

Guys jerking off on a cookie. And I'm like, ookie cookie.

[A]

Limp Biscuit. Yeah.

[B]

What's Limp Bizkit?

[A]

Limp Bizkit. Limp Bizkit is the. Sorry, that's Limp Biscuit. Sorry. Yeah.

[B]

This is where I found out Alanis Morissette is something gross, too.

[A]

I know, but Limp Bizkit is the original name for ookie cookie, so Limp BizKit is the UK version. Because biscuit means cookie.

[B]

Oh, of course.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why limp, though?

[A]

Yeah, soggy. And because everyone is done if. Well, unless you're the last one, then you have to eat the cookie.

[B]

So not only. You don't even get to. To have a finish, and you eat a cookie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I'm gonna say the history of Limp Biscuit and Okie Cookie. You know, there's people throwing that game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's some Shoeless Joe Jack. Shoeless Joe Jack off. He's not even trying to. He's not even trying.

[A]

I think you just like this. No, I hate it. No, no.

[B]

And respect. That's what we say.

[A]

Shoeless Joe Jackoff.

[B]

Shoeless Joe Jackoff.

[A]

That's funny.

[B]

Shoeless Joe Jackson. No, come on. Come on. I'm gonna say, if one of us does it, you can have it.

[A]

That is funny. That's one of the. Okay, but that's also one of those stories that people go, oh, why were frat guys doing the elephant walk? Why does everyone have to be naked? Why do we have these both, like, kind of kinky humiliation rituals?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I think it's because you have to be forged by the fire of proof that you'll go through all of this gay shit and still follow the rules. Marry a woman, have a kid, preferably a son, who can work at the business that you got from your dad.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

So there is a.

[B]

You can go into the fire and come back.

[A]

Yes, yes. You will be unchanged.

[B]

You won't be tricked by the coyote.

[A]

You won't be tricked by the gay.

[B]

Ass, but you're not scared of him.

[A]

Yeah, you'll.

[B]

That guy.

[A]

Yeah, you'll that coyote.

[B]

You'll let that coyote you.

[A]

But that is part of it.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

I think that's something that a lot of guys. I have a joke where I say the word can come out of your mouth as many times as the faggot has gone it. So if you were in a frat, you can say it. And to me.

[B]

To me, it's like a quarter in the pinball. Now you can play. Now you can play.

[A]

And some of the guys have a string attached to their quarter. And they go, but to me, the girls laughing at that joke laugh because they go, how. How incredulous and silly and ridiculous is this? And a lot of the boys laugh at that joke because they go, ha, ha. That's crazy.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

That's wild, right?

[B]

That's fascinating.

[A]

So many people think that when we kind of joke about these experiences, they kind of go, oh, you know, P and J. They're being a bit hyperbolic when they talk about how much. How horny they were as teen boys. And I go, no, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, my. The only reason I knew how to jerk off, one of my friends in fifth grade gathered us. Benjamin or Lansky? I'll say your name.

[B]

Oh, Benjamin. Yeah. Sounds like a sports team.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Listen, have the ball.

[A]

He's wonderful. He's got two kids now. He's got beautiful wife. He lives in Austin. He gathered us. Or he. He. Cuz he had two older brothers.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So he came back as an emissary. He was like, I got some news, y'. All. He said, y' all know. Y' all know. You know, like, when you get a boner. We were like, yes, Benji, we all know when we get boners. He's. At first there's something you can do about it. And we're like, what? He went, okay, you can keep going. We were like, no, there's. He's like, you can keep going. And then something happens. And he told us.

[B]

Us.

[A]

And I know at least four of us went home that week. And we're like, let me see what Benji's talking about. Let me find this JCPenney's catalog.

[B]

I remember wanting a wet dream. We thought, like, girls got their periods.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And boys got their wet dreams. And I. I got. I finally had one. And I was like, I really wanted one. But then I'm like, that's not a thing. That is not a thing. Like, what are we talking about?

[A]

Yeah, that was one of.

[B]

We wanted an initiation.

[A]

Yeah. You wanted a kind of, like, doorway into manhood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I mean, as a. I didn't know I was queer. I didn't know I was going to identify as bisexual later. I just was kind of always like, oh, this is interesting. Oh, this is interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so my entire kind of, like, high school existence was this duality of, like, oh, I'm really attracted to girls. I have all these, like, fun relationships with girls. But then I also have this, like, weird. One time a new guy came to our school, and I Just remember being obsessed with him in a way I couldn't articulate. So people be like, oh, my gosh. Like, this new guy be like, man, he's really. We should figure out, like, what he likes to do. And they'd be like, what?

[B]

This is like, anchorman. Yeah, this is all over. We should get an apartment together. I miss your most very much.

[A]

I miss your most.

[B]

But why does that joke work? It's because we know the anchorman boys. There's a homo social charge to it.

[A]

And I was like, we gotta talk to him about his old school. What did they do there? And everyone was like, we do not, like, care. I was like, I care. And so I had, like, those moments. And I also would have, like, this. Me and this girl once, we would just, like, make out in a car because I would have to go to, like, my theater classes at the end of the day, and in between, there was an interim where we could, like, go to that part of the school, and we would just, like, make out in the car and probably look so performative. That was like, before I went to go do two hours of theater, I was like, yeah, let me make out in the car with this cheerleader. We'd make out and then she'd go. And I'd be like. And then I'd go, this is crazy. Crazy. I go to theater, and there was a guy named Chaz who we would like, this is so funny. We was like, he's a chef now He's a ladies. You get it? If you get it, He's a chef.

[B]

Hey, what does chef mean to you?

[A]

Ladies? Love girls. Love line cooks and chefs. There's a.

[B]

They're dangerous. They smoke.

[A]

They also, like, they're good at something. Something.

[B]

But there's something about, like, I'm not. I couldn't eat.

[A]

Working class bad boys.

[B]

They are. And they know the. When they. I say grotesque, I don't mean gross. But they're like, if you want to eat.

[A]

Yeah, this.

[B]

You have to get through this. Like, they're not afraid of blood and gut. There's something. There's like an oyster.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And a vagina. And they're just like, I love oysters. You know what I'm saying? Like, that is not a new point.

[A]

But there's a dedication to. There's a dedication to, like, tactile elements and taste and.

[B]

But they're dealing with the raw thing to get to the presentable thing.

[A]

And they're. And in a very kind of, like, old school masculinity way, they're Manly. They're manly because they do a thing with knives and they yell at people. People yell at them. They yell back. There's fire.

[B]

It's urgent.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everything's on a clock rock. It's so funny. Cooking is feminine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Until it becomes like intense. And then it's like, now it's the most masculine.

[A]

And then. And this is my kink to bear. And then you kind of go, can a lady yell at me? Then you kind of get there, where you go, cat, Cora, yell at me.

[B]

When you shoot on set, you'll see a lot of mask leaning women that are on cruise.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's. I've done hundreds of things and there's always guys going like, that's what's up. Like, I want that. There's something underrepresented sexy about a woman that can pick up a camera and you're just sort of like, what the am I looking at right now? And it's kind of. It's in there.

[A]

I think, I think that, like, so that. So that element of like, oh, what do I want sexually? That was present with me. Yeah. All throughout high school and then college.

[B]

Was a chef, though.

[A]

This guy that I would.

[B]

Oh, you'd go to the theater class.

[A]

I'd go to theater class. And he's a chef now. But at the time we would like, cuddle in a way that we could easily pass off as like, oh, just a bunch of teenagers just kind of like chilling. But I was like, but why? Listen, why am I in your lap?

[B]

Okay. You're really bringing me back to high school.

[A]

School.

[B]

There were those people that would just kind of pour into each other like.

[A]

A cuddle puddle, like a puppy pile.

[B]

And they'd play with hair and they'd run their hands on your arm or whatever it was. I had that, dude, you're bringing me back. My friend Liz would draw henna on my hand.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I was like.

[A]

And you'd stay there.

[B]

I would love it. And I felt like I was being initiated.

[A]

It's. I mean, like, if. If we kind of look at this from an anthropological standpoint, it's a very primate grooming circle. It is of us to kind of just pick at each other and rub on each other.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so the theater was the place. Yeah.

[B]

I envied the theater. Oh, we. They did.

[A]

You had carte blanche to do whatever you wanted to do. If you were a theater department and.

[B]

You could pretend to be a grown up. Look, when I say kink, I don't mean bad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's something erotic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

About it. It's like, I'm gonna be Hamlet. Hamlet grown dude.

[A]

Hamlet is a grown dude who is not processing the death of his dad well. And he's like, you know what? I think a couple people should die.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like. And so. So imagine saying, hey, you're 16. Go for it.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

There were moments where we would. One of my first, like, big makeouts was on stage backstage, because there was a kiss in the show. And so because there was a kiss in the show, everyone in the show was like, well, we should kiss. And so wait.

[B]

The people who didn't have a kiss.

[A]

The people who didn't have a kiss were like, well, we're kissing too. If y' all are kissing, we gotta kiss. And so this was not on stage, and some of it was not scripted. And sometimes the director, who was also. I'm looking back on it. She had to be only, like, 28, and she was dealing with us. Us. She's only 10 years. 12 years older.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

We would kiss backstage because they were gonna have a kiss on stage and be like, oh, well, let's like, make fun of them kissing. So it was always like, we're kind of making fun of y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

No, we're just kissing. We're just kissing.

[B]

My friend Earn was in. His name's Aaron, but we called him Earn. He was in a bigger. And he was in a theater thing. I went and saw him do this play, and he kissed a girl like, 15 times in this play. And I'm still mad about it. I was in the crowd. I was like, we had a deal. Like, we're lame. Like, we're. We're not.

[A]

You and the kids aren't.

[B]

I mean, those best friend things, it never went sexual. But that. That closeness is a type of. I don't know how to. How to categorize it.

[A]

Social.

[B]

It's homosocial.

[A]

It's homosocial. And you're aware of each other.

[B]

You're aware of each other.

[A]

I remember the first time I saw my.

[B]

And there was a possessiveness. That's actually what it was, was I was possessive. And when he started dating a girl. This is also. We're learning. Homosocial. It's like peewee. The word of the day is homosocial. Because I remember being more angry. And again, I would tell you if I had overt sexual feelings, that wasn't in my consciousness, but I was. There was unshadow. And I don't mean bad. I mean, there was, like, Unconscious, like, but you belong to me. We have each other. And Ern was my friend that was like, like saving me from my family. I love my family. But it wasn't like a very chill house. So I would walk like four miles to earns house.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

That's romance. I don't mean sexual. I mean it's romantic. It's like, you're my best friend, you're.

[A]

About to saving me. Close to solving this male loneliness epidemic everyone's talking about, which is having a deeply rooted, kind of like fully realized relationship that's beautiful with another person, whether that be a man, but something that gets you kind of out of what has now become a very sort of market style relationship complex based on dating apps and the Internet and perceived desirability. If you have a relationship with someone who you care about and you don't have sex, but you do have moments where you go, I love you so much. I'm so happy we get to have this. Yeah, that doesn't exist as much for guys, young guys right now.

[B]

Let's, let's dive into that. We're gonna go to the mid rolls here because it's been an hour and we'll be right back because I want to talk about male loneliness. I know all of a sudden it feels like we're doing a TV show. I just happen to notice we're changing topics right at the hour. So instead of the ads just being dropped out of nowhere, here they are.

[A]

Yeah, we'll be right back for better help, hopefully.

[B]

Pardon the interruption, weirdos. This episode is also brought to us by our friends at Shakti Maps Mats. Shakti mats are like laying on a bed of nails. And I'm not joking. It's thousands of tiny pokies. These tiny spikes that release muscle tension, boost circulation and help melt away stress. I usually say this at the end, but I'm going to say it here. It's a fantastic gift idea for literally the person who has everything. You don't know what to get them. Get them a Shakti mat because what is it really? It's a personal masseuse. It's a stress relief. It's like a spa rolled up in the corner of your bedroom. You unfurl it, you lay on it and you melt away tension. I like massage. I like things like sauna. I like things like cold plunge. Somehow a Shakti mat is a bit of a taste of all of those things. But you stay dry. It's easy to do and it only takes a couple minutes. Although the first time I used a Shakti mat, I stayed on it for about half an hour and I fell asleep. Sleep and I absolutely love it. This is we're talking about acupressure. Matte means a little discomfort means a lot of relief. And Shakti mat is a very, very high quality acupressure mat. It's one of the sharpest on the market and it's the only one. It's made handmade in India by people who are paid fairly with the highest quality materials. And I can vouch for that. Go to Shakti S H A K T I m a t shaktimat.com use promo code weird30 is the code for 30 off any Shakti mat. That's Shakti matt.com use promo code weird30 and have that stress melting away. I use it constantly. I hope you like it as much as I do. We're also brought to us by our friends at Apollo Neuro. If you're watching the video, I'm pointing my Apollo. I'm always wearing my Apollo. Usually when I do the podcast I have it set to social media. What is it? Apollo Neuro is a revolutionary wearable that helps you naturally manage stress, improves your sleep and boosts focus through gentle scientifically backed vibrations. That doesn't really mean you feel it perceptually all the time because I keep it on a pretty low setting. You can turn it up if you want to, but it's the language that your nervous system speaks. These vibrations are scientifically backed to speak to your nervous system and basically be a synthetic hug, calming you down, helping you recover. It's a holistic approach to wellness. And Apollo Neuro fits seamlessly into any routine. These vibrations can reduce stress, improve sleep, boost focus, faster recovery. It's drug free and non invasive. It's a natural alternative to tradition, to traditional stress relief methods. And it is science back versatile. Developed by neuroscientists and supported by clinical research made in the US Money back guarantee. You got to try it. I've worn mine for years and I've lost it in the past and immediately reordered it. And that is the test that, you know, it makes a difference in my life. Try Apollo Neuro today and transform your wellness routine. With rising demand, now is the perfect time to buy. They do often sell out and they have 0% APR financing with a firm. Go to ApolloNeuro.com weird weird for 60 bucks off and a free sleep band. That's a P-O-L-L-O N E U-R-O dot com. Weird for 60 bucks off and a free sleep band. Back to the show. Okay, we're back. I want to talk about male loneliness. It's. What a great topic. I'm so glad you picked up on that, because there is a yearning. Like, you know, I work with Jed a lot, and I love Judd very much, and so many of his movies are about this. When you get married or otherwise, your life moves on. Otherwise, you miss this camaraderie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That you had. And again, I'm not saying anything sexual. I just want to be careful. Like with the army, like these. These guys that are bonded together through intense experiences or a sports team. But for me, now, I have some close guy friends and what we do, and I really want your advice. Your take is when we sit, I go, what are you ashamed of? Tell me something you're ashamed of. And we do it.

[A]

And it's good.

[B]

I see more men's groups popping up and more just. Like. I realized it was exhausting to hang out with my guy friends. This is through my 20s and most of my 30s, if I'm being real, because all I was doing was competing with them and kind of like bragging. I was trying to be like, well, yeah, I'm doing Conan next week. And I was like, that's not relationship.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then with my girlfriends, I would be like, like, probably smothering them with too much. I was like, can't we just kind of have a more well rounded. Can I have one guy that I'm like, you know, I'm. I'm really scared that, like, this or this or, like, what. What does this mean about me? Or I'm ashamed about this?

[A]

Well, I think that that is that relationship dynamic and that sort of, I guess, like, delineation between, like, I can only talk about this with my girlfriends. I can only talk about this with my guy friends. It's ruined two and a half generations. Almost three.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now we kind of have this group of young men online who think they're not desirable, but who also think that they're owed something versus, like, going out there and forging real life friendships and bonds with people. And then some of the relationships they have with people online now are toxic. Or these people are manipulating them and taking advantage of them and kind of like using their grievances that are real to kind of boost their clout online and to have just an army of followers.

[B]

Oh, by pandering.

[A]

Yeah, by pandering and by saying you deserve these things. You should say this thing about black people. You Say this thing about Jewish people. You should say this thing about women in general. Instead of being like, you know what? You actually just need to talk to a dude in your neighborhood who's close. I don't know. Like, if you like Yu Gi oh, go play Yu Gi oh. With someone who, you know. I don't know.

[B]

That's why Dungeons and Dragons. I don't even play Dungeons and Dragons, but. But it's making a comeback because we are exactly breaking. We're breaking. And it's funny. Can I say to that? Because that's great advice. And I'm like, oh, okay, I'll go get a slice of pizza with this male friend from work. And then you're like, but it's gonna be weird. Like, there will be, like, lulls. And I'm like, if there's one thing I could just kind of, like, pixie dust over everybody. Sprite dust. I would just be like, yeah. And you can be, like, honest about. Yeah, Like, I'd love to go hang out. I'm a little worried it'll be weird, but I think we push through that.

[A]

Yeah, it's like a good date.

[B]

Like, you could say the same thing. Like, this might not work, but can we talk about, like, it's also, like, stand up. Yeah, it's not working. Then the show becomes about how it's not working. Like, it's an ownership of what is.

[A]

And it's scarier to, like, go through life not having at least one person you can talk to about something. I think it's so much scarier to tell these men they have to become these sort of, like, stone statuesque figures. Because the overcorrection is. People say, oh, I have to become this, like, alpha male. And I have to. I have to really get in the. Because have you seen this, like, kind of evolution where it went from? I have to get really into sports, and it's like, no, I have to get really into bodybuilding. And now it's like, no, I have to really get into, like, mixed martial arts. And so even the aesthetic they're attempting to pursue because, like, if you're in shape now, they're like, oh, but is it functional? Actually, I know a couple of guys who. Who do jiu jitsu who could, like, beat your ass when, like, a couple years ago it was like, oh, you want to look like. You want to look like Chris Evans when he comes out of the Captain America chamber. First of all, most important tits in Marvel history. I would argue they look great. I know I'm gonna Say, I'm gonna ever do it again. Cu. It. I get it. Chris Evans was sick of it, but.

[B]

He won't do Captain America.

[A]

I mean, no, that's almost.

[B]

You know, Chris Evans did this podcast.

[A]

Can you believe it? He wasn't in the TV where. Zoom. I was about to smell this.

[B]

But I'm gonna say that is. It's not like Little Richard, but that.

[A]

You remember when that happened, Every guy was like, I gotta look like Captain America and Thor. Every. So many of my straight male friends were like, oh, I need that man. And I was like, say it again.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

They're like, I need to look like that man. I was like, okay.

[B]

But the line between I want to be like, I want to be like is a kind of love. You know what I mean?

[A]

Admiration.

[B]

Admiration. Adoration.

[A]

Adoration and veneration and, like, their goals. These are demigods who you get to say, oh, I get to do what he does. Thank you so much for inspiring me, you, man. When I have sex with my wife, I'm gonna think of you and thank you.

[B]

Right. And even the way you do that in a heterosexual way, which is what we're talking about, this is the trickster kind of getting in there is. I'll pretend I'm him.

[A]

Yeah, he's still there. You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, you're superimposing him on you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I think there's. It's a very interesting thing when, again, in the normal. Nor. You know what I mean. Heteronormative narrative, a guy watches Captain America and goes, I want to be that. That is so intimate.

[A]

I want.

[B]

Call me by your name. Call me by your name. Call me Captain America. Call me Jason Bourne. You think it's distancing you. It's actually as close as you could be to it. I want to be you.

[A]

You're a priest in that church. You're an acolyte.

[B]

You're an acolyte.

[A]

You're inside of it, and it's inside.

[B]

Of you, and it's inside. And I'm not even trying to be. I mean, we can. We can. We can do that.

[A]

But I think. But there's like a level. There is a level of male loneliness online. That kind of. The way people get out of it is through gym relationships. They have a guy. I have. I've had this. Men who, like. We've never really talked about anything other than how we're looking that day in the gym and what we're working on and what we're trying. There's an older gentleman at my gym in New York City during the pandemic, we were both kind of worried. Worried about, like, the gym closing down, and we'd seen each other all the time. And you know what this man told me his dream was?

[B]

Gym clothes.

[A]

Laws. Yeah.

[B]

We were a little worried about the gym clothes. Lost.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that you went with it. Well, I also was like. I mean, I get it. Like, this is a social component for him. He wanted to do porn, and now he does porn.

[B]

Waiting.

[A]

He told me he wanted to do it. He. And he's, like, a straight guy. Older. Older guy. And he told me he want. He was like, I really kind of want to get into, like, nude modeling. And then that kind of turned into, like, I kind of want to do, like, porn. And I was like, I'm me. I was like, oh, like, sex workers work. Like, okay. Like, I'm very much like, hell, yeah. And he, like, does it now. And to me, that wasn't sexual, but it was intimate because I was like, what?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what it is? You're gonna know. I can't wait to say this to you.

[A]

Say it.

[B]

That is. That is sold in the same store as people, regardless of their sexual identity, talking about their dreams. Yes, we love it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Or here you were in my dream last night is.

[A]

And you go, what?

[B]

Girl, it is.

[A]

Girl, it is.

[B]

We need these. And there's something. Again, I'm not even.

[A]

I had a dream about you getting the I had a dream about you text or in person. You go, what?

[B]

Yeah, that's right. And we know it's the. I need to talk. I need to talk is. Or we need to talk is break up.

[A]

Can I talk about something?

[B]

And I had a dream about you. And everyone. People play with it too. They'll send it as a standalone text. And then you got the three bubbles, and you're like.

[A]

You go.

[B]

Send it as one. Actually, don't. Because it's very titillating to wonder where it's going. But what. What I think what we were having. I think there's a fascinating conversation about that Coyote, meaning culture wants you to think that you're on a conveyor belt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And you're. It's the game of life. And you're given a shirt and, you know, the briefcase and the car and. I'm not even talking about. You're supposed to. It could be gay. It could be straight.

[A]

But actually, I think for the purposes of this, you can talk about the reason it has to Be straight. And here's why. It has to be straight. Maybe not 100% straight, but it has to be straight enough that you. And this is so, like, early modern era, like, great chain of being. You have to make kids. And the reason you have to make kids is because you're working so hard to have all this stuff. Don't you want to make sure your stuff goes to something that came from you? Your stuff. Stuff. Get your stuff. If your stuff doesn't get your stuff, what are you even getting stuff for? You're gonna give your stuff away to strangers? Well, that's chaos. That's communism, actually, which.

[B]

What you just brought. That is so funny. It was so funny. I comedy laughed at it. I'm like, that's very funny. That's really good. Because I do think there's something really there. And then the old guy who has a billion dollars, like, knives out. Chris Evans.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Who's gonna give it to his young wife.

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

We hate that. You're going to give yourself the rule. You broke the rule.

[A]

I get the stuff.

[B]

And gay relationship or childless relationship. You know what I mean? I'm not judging. I'm saying you're breaking the rule. Yes, but what I was going to say, too, is like, you think you're on this again. I think it's important you're on this straight line when. If you've ever had an epic dream or if you've ever had a psychedelic experience, those things make you realize you're in a 3. It's more than 360, and it's swirling and it's confusing and it's strange. And these devilish. Not devilish. These wicked.

[A]

But they are devilish.

[B]

Yeah, devilish, but in the Loki way. Not Satan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, like Loki. Whether or not you meet a Loki character on a psychic quest, on a vision quest, you feel that sort of like it is. Will you be. When we're talking about the initiations of like. Like, my dorm room was constantly naked. What are we doing? What are we doing? And it wasn't as simple as, well, you want to suck each other's dicks. It wasn't that simple. But it feels dreamy and ethereal and it's not conveyor. But that's all I'm saying. I'm saying no, but it is the things at play. We need little Richards and we need Prince and we need all this stuff. We need Burning man and we need ayahuasca or whatever it is. We need all this stuff.

[A]

We have to have those off Ramps from this highway that you're describing, because those off ramp ramps make you go, oh, this is what life is about. It's about this weird little experience I had here. And then I get to move on this way a little bit. And then I go, actually, let me do this. Oh, this is. And for me, I started to do comedy when I was 29, so my off ramp became a main path when the. I thought the main path was gonna be a personal trainer, an actor, and just kind of doting husband. And even before that, I thought the main path. Path would have been, if we get back even to earlier stuff, was theater teacher at the collegiate level. And before that, I thought it was going to be Laurie. And before that, I thought it was going to be doctor because I went to. I went to school for biology. And then I was like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to. It's like those. The main path as you're describing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It exists in theory. And then because of these little tricksters and because of these parts of life, you kind of go, oh, it's actually over here. Here.

[B]

That actually end up being. I know this is such a cliche. They're your teachers.

[A]

Yeah, they're your teachers, but they're also never going to tell you directly. They're trickster gods. And the trickster deity of it all is. I can't give you this information directly because then you won't even do that. Right. I can't tell you to do this because then you're going to say, what do you.

[B]

It actually goes back to the carving of the giant, saying you actually have to kind of suffer it into you or be tricked into it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because if you could just explain it, we would have a YouTube video that would, like, explain life to you.

[A]

And that's just being a robot.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

That's. What if there's a prescriptive method and model for life, the minute someone succeeds without it, then it's outdated. If someone says, this is the only way to make it go, what about that person? They go, I guess you could do.

[B]

Well, you know, in comedy that. That's been happening over and over. That's what's been really humbling in the great way, where I'm like, sometimes people say, say, how did you make it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, every. Almost everything I did has no application. I kind of like that.

[A]

I kind of think it's fun.

[B]

There are some principles.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Remain. But then you're like, I don't know, man.

[A]

I'M also, like, I'm on the cusp of that as well. Like, I was one of, I think maybe one of the last groups of people who were like, okay, so these are the steps. Do these steps. Steps, yeah. And the steps don't guarantee success, but they guarantee. They guarantee a couple of eyes on you in a way that can lead to success if you execute.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Correctly. And so, like, those steps happen. And now I'm hyper aware of both, like, the old school way and the new emerging way and taking elements from both and what I really like. Like, I'm still very punchy. And I love working a set. People like, oh, you love. You love set up punch. And I go, here's the thing. Crowds love setup punch because crowds love being fed. If you've ever. Sometimes. And you know this sometimes, you'll go, oh, I love telling these jokes. I could go weird right now, but y' all aren't. I need y' all to really be locked in on the easy stuff before I can ever get weird. Yeah, yeah. Because you earn it. You earn it. Because if you don't, crowds go. They just. He came out confusing me at first.

[B]

I go, val pointed that out to me. Me, it's been 25 years. And she goes, Pete, usually the first 10 minutes of your set is you daring them to not like you and, like, saying something weird like. Like uncomfortable. Usually. She was like, there's always some weird porn joke, and it's this weird churchy reflex where I'm like, if you're gonna enjoy all of this, I need to know I can trust you. And she's like, you can just stop doing that.

[A]

But you. And you know who matches, you know. Oh, okay. You and Taylor both do occupy those. Those ends of the spectrum where you're both very porny sometimes and very theological and not Christian. Yeah, both porn. You are. You know how to.

[B]

I say this all the time. I go, you guys love the jizz jokes and you love the God jokes. I'm like, who are you?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I didn't know you guys existed.

[A]

Oh, I. I love the fact that as a comic right now, I still have that reaction. I go, who. Wait a second. Y' all at some of the craziest stuff. This is just stuff I said to the mirror and in the shower. Y' all are weird.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you earn it.

[A]

You. You.

[B]

You gotta, like, walk them in with the setup punch. You know what's interesting? Maybe this is a stretch or you'll really know what I mean. One time I watched The John Wick movies. I might have been stoned or I might just kind of been feeling fanciful, like feeling flighty in my thinking. And I was like, oh, my God. John Wick is the old and the new Karate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All those, I think, guns and guns and guns. We love it. We want to see the old and the new. So I like, you're John Wick.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You're. You're going like, I know how to do what Davitel is doing or, you know, that kind of thing. And I know how to do. Yeah.

[A]

When I tell you, that's one of the highest compliments. Well, thank you. I love David Tell. And when people go, oh, would you watch Growing Up Insomniac with David Tell every. And Davitel was doing everything that everyone with the camera on the street was. Is doing now back then. Then.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

David Tell was dealing with drunk people at 2am he was with a camera.

[B]

He was the original Hawk to a girl. Not even original. That's what it was.

[A]

True.

[B]

Well, he was finding the original.

[A]

Found a few original Hawks girls. And if that would have happened, I mean, you can't even tell me that those people know about Davitel because I don't know if they do. Yeah, but like, I know about Insomniac.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That. Well, he is the ultimate. Like, I'm going to come. Like, it does feel like karate. He's going like on one of those things that just has the nubs.

[A]

He does this amazing thing where, like, he is aware that he is both, like, part of the old guard, but also existing in a new world. And he doesn't resist it. He lets it wash over him and he plays with it. And there's this beauty. There's this beauty in someone who you look up to, you still crushing the last show of the night at the Cellar and you're there with him and you go, that. In my head. And I know some people don't want this. In my head I go, okay, so I could still be like telling really fun, timely jokes, like at that age.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And some people go, I don't want to have to do that. I want to be doing arenas. I want to be retiring to be house. I don't care. I think there's a beauty in that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that means you're the old head that gets to come. Come in super late at night and play with the band and people go watch this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That to me is like, well, that's.

[B]

That feels like old showbiz. In fact, the bar where I saw the Naked Ladies was Jeff Goldblum does A Night of Music there. It's right over here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's. That's a tell.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Jeff Goldblum doesn't need to do that. You know, I. I think he doesn't need to do that. You know what I'm saying? He wants to do it because I think these guys have figured out something that's really hard to figure out, which is this is your life.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

This. Right. Whatever you're doing right now, it's not sitting in a mansion and going like, boy, we did it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's also not just insatiably doing it. It's finding what you like to do and do it. And Jeff Goldblum likes to sing and entertain people.

[A]

And that entertainment aspect, to me, enriches all of the other stuff. Like, I.

[B]

It gives a purity to it.

[A]

Yeah. Especially I just saw Sinners and Delroy Lindo, his character, blew me away as a Mississippian, as a person who knows a bunch of old, old black men from Mississippi, he occupied this space where. Yeah, he's a kind of mean drunk, but he's funny, but there's heart. And at his core, he's a musician.

[B]

It's like the Color Purple.

[A]

I haven't seen it.

[B]

But you remember the husband and color. Yes. You're like, yes, but I kind of like him.

[A]

Yes. Well, okay, here's the crazy part. And here's the crazy part about being a comedian and seeing older showbiz people. So much of comedy now has been kind of connected to Hollywood, so that youth is this thing that people have to have. But then. I know. And you. And you've learned this, like, as a. Specifically as a, like, comedian. As you get older, you kind of just get better. As long as you don't start hating, like, trans folks. You get just a little. You. You know what I mean? You just. More seasoning on the cast iron pan.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Kind of stuff slips off you.

[B]

I heard a Malcolm Gladwell thing. He was talking about Paul Simon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he was like. And Paul Simon's an anomaly because he's. He never stopped. He's just been doing music all this time. And a lot of people do go like, well, that's enough. And I'm like. And a lot of comics, their careers get interrupted by some other thing. But there are guys like. Like, I know we just said trans jokes, so Chappelle came to my mind. But like, Chappelle with those. Whatever you want to call, blind spots also yeah. Is like been doing it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For 30 years.

[A]

He was a kid. That is a w. Like Dave Chappelle. Once again, Killing Them Softly is one of the specials that. It was a baby. My life. It was a baby. You probably know this. And you see down the corner. I'm selling drugs. I said it so Pete didn't have to.

[B]

I know I said we go to.

[A]

Color bars, but there is an element of going. I know this, like, super important seminal text. And I. Whenever I first started doing Stand up, I would hear people. This is what people were doing when I first started. They were doing. All the white boys were doing Mark. They were doing Normand, or they were doing kind of a mix of Mulaney and Birbiglia. The soft white boys were doing that. The ones who wanted to be. Who wanted to.

[B]

Like, those are your choices.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It is like D and D. Do you want to be an elf or do you want to be.

[A]

And then a lot of the young. Exactly. A lot of the young black boys were still doing either Kevin or Chappelle. And I would hear it, and it made me. I had a rule. Earl, earlier. I never wanted to end a joke with as a punchline when I didn't have a good enough actual punchline, because I just knew. They didn't know they were taking it from your book.

[B]

Is a tag.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Have a good joke.

[A]

But they didn't know that they were doing Chappelle. They didn't know they were doing that. That's because it was. It was something that was so. In his voice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so kind of ingrained in him. And he probably was like. He probably was channeling. Who. Who is the person that, like. Not just Chappelle. Oh, my God. Who was.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Who's the guy from D.C. that Tony. Oh. Oh, my God. Is it Tony? I forget Tony's last name. I'm forgetting there's a D.C. comedian that they showed.

[B]

Greatly inspired Chappelle.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And did some shows with Chappelle. I think he opens from. Sometimes it's. Katie, would you just. Dave Chappelle. Tony Woods.

[A]

Tony Woods. Shout out. Tony Woods.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, like, you see Dave really kind of taking that and then it transmogrifies and becomes more Dave. And so that's the standard. And you see other people kind of do that.

[B]

But what's weird is when you watch. Did you watch that? Now we're just talking about Chappelle. I'd rather talk about you. But I'm just saying, like, you see Chappelle in high school and you're like, he. He's doing him. Yeah, it was there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's the weirdest thing about.

[A]

You see the flashes.

[B]

You see him do like this.

[A]

Well, I saw. I mean, like, Kevin Hart is another example of someone to me who, like when Kevin Hart found out that his magic was a little bit of patter, a little bit of finger snapping and a little bit and losing. Kevin Hart made it cool to be a black male comedian who was losing so much. So much of it was like, we have to win. In the stories, Kevin Hart was always losing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All of his early stories, Lil Kevin Hart was always losing. He was. People were making fun of him. His ex. Wife. Wife. His dad growing up, he was always losing.

[B]

Well, it's funny to me that I love Rock, obviously, but Rock, I'll never forget. I won't say who it was because it's their story to say. I remember when I started, I was 22, 23. I'm like, obviously, Chris Rock is the best. And this guy goes, yeah, but I like a little bit more vulnerability. And I never even considered that. But Chris, to me is coming from that time when you get the last slap.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's why I made it so challenging that he got slapped. Because I was like, this isn't the guy that's gonna do the bit about, like, what he learned. I actually. It doesn't matter. I just thought when he did the bit, he was doing what he does, which is like, my heart. I connect to Chris. I'm like, I know you, man. I know you got like teased and hurt and you became Iron Man.

[A]

But he gets.

[B]

And you're like, you're not gonna do that.

[A]

He gets to tell that version of the story. I think in Everybody Hates Chris Chris TV show, he gets to like, get beat up by like racists in the 80s. And his mom smacks him around and his brother's the cool one and his sister makes fun of him. You're right.

[B]

He dumped it all there.

[A]

He gets to tell it all there. Cuz on stage, I think it just is a bit. Maybe it's a narrative that he never really wanted to like because with his standup, he's a prowler. He's like, he's. He's walking the full length of the stage and telling you something that you need to know about race relations in America. Whereas on the show, show, it's kind of like just a kid who's a loser. Right. Which is beautiful because you get to go, huh? It's funny.

[B]

But there and then you're saying Kevin.

[A]

Kevin was doing that on stage.

[B]

Did it on stage.

[A]

Kevin was doing it on stage when Kevin was like letting. He has this very, very funny story. And it happened as he, as he continued to rise in fame because he would find new levels. So then he was famous enough to hang out with Dwyane Wade. So he has these funny jokes about Dwyane Wade taking him out. And he's like, oh, so we like, you ain't paying for it. Okay. Okay. And he's like, I'm a loser. Again, it's him hanging out with the Rock. And so physically there's a difference. So he makes fun of the Rock, the Rock makes fun of him, the Rock gets the last laugh. Then he gets to call the Rock a big dummy. But everyone, everyone enjoys seeing Kevin lose. And to me, when I was like, okay, so there are all these elements of stand up where you can be a winner, you can be a loser, you can be sassy, you can be dumb, you can. And so, like, as a, as a comic, I'm like, okay, what parts of this do I like? I love losing, but I also love kind of getting last laugh. When you're queer, you get to kind of be the arbor of wit sometimes. So you get to be like, actually, I get to make this point.

[B]

Well, there's a lot of dynamics here. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In fact, before you pause there, I was going to say Kevin is very handsome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's short.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you want him to win. You could. Don't get me started on, like, justice. Like, what the audience thinks is just. And when I. I'm not here to tell you what a queer person. But there's a different dynamic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We want you to win in different ways. There's a different sensibility. And. And I think Kevin's good lookingness helps us. I don't know, it's hard to explain.

[A]

But Kevin also gets to queer the narrative because if he's a man who's losing, men don't lose. Short men can lose. Why? Because short men aren't manly enough. Why aren't they manly enough? Because every man has to be this amount of height. But as you know, know, after a certain amount of height, you and Goldman talk about this like there is a level of height where it's silly that now that you aren't holding a ball, you go, what's all this for? You go, wait a minute. This is actually funny. Well, you wait a second. You go, garrett, you down here at the cell, you're gonna hit your head.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

That's it. Yeah. It's you.

[B]

There's a certain. Well, a joke. I actually think this is good. A joke is a benign violation, Right? It's like a safe violation. And a tall guy who isn't doing anything with it is already funny. It's already funny. What is he doing here?

[A]

And then people make fun of it. It's Veep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Veep was all about that. Like, there's so many times where you go, oh, that's how we. Like, that's the comedy math on this. And so whenever you're a queer person, a black person, a person from the South, I don't know, like, I get to, like, lose and win. So, like, the justice then is if I make fun of racism in the South. To me, the funnier joke is making fun of people who think there's not racism outside of the South. So I have this joke where I say, oh, you move, New York. And people say, oh, Jay, you must be happy to be out of the South. The racism down there must be so pronounced. And I go, you pronounce it just fine up here. And, like, they. That's a very Southern way to handle that and diffuse that. But it comes from the fact that when I moved to New York in 2015, people were like, oh, Mississippi. So racist. I go, y' all just killed, like, a dude up here. Then y' all just.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Strangle a guy to death.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Okay. All right.

[B]

We. Well, scapegoating is one of the most human things.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

In the world. And we get so excited. I mean, all of humanity gets so excited. If we can say our evil is in. I'll go to the 90s. It's in Iraq.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

If we can say racism is in the South. And that's exactly what scapegoating is. Is. You go, I'm not from the South. I'm not.

[A]

You go, I get to put all this there.

[B]

Nobody. People in our trees. It's like, yes, they did.

[A]

They go. And if they didn't, they just beat them on the sidewalk. Exactly. Or they hit them with a car.

[B]

Like, but we just want to go. It's over there.

[A]

And that. I. I think that, like, because my approach to comedy was also a bit theatrical, I was always. I didn't.

[B]

It really doesn't seem like an When. When I first saw it, because I was like, oh, okay, Jay is an actor. Which is so funny because Chappelle also went to school for drama. But I'm like, I have a guess. And then when I watch You. I was like, it's just a compliment. I go, oh, no, that's a real comic.

[A]

Yeah, I grew up. I grew up. I was. I was indoctrinated so early because Comedy Central, to me, was fascinating, because think about this. Every other station, like, you didn't see people talk that uninterrupted for that long. You saw dialogue, you saw interviews. You. The first time I was like. Like, the first time I saw Pablo Francisco or the first time I saw, like, Wanda Sykes or Jim Gaffigan special with, like, the corn in the back in my. You have to remember Skinny Jim. Skinny Jim. Jim with the glasses. And I remember thinking, they're talking a lot. Oh, my God, they're talking the whole time. And so then you just watch it. And you watch. As a. As a person who was in theater at the time, I was like, these are monologues, but there's something different about them. Oh, they're like. Are planning these, like, laughs. And then I watch Tough Crowd, and that's just like ball busting. And then I watched last comic Stanley, and then Stand up kind of is, like, popping up everywhere. And this is before anything else. So, like, my introduction to Stand up was Comedy Central and then a little bit of Last Comedy, and I was just like, blown away.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But I. I thought you were also going to say it, really, Because a monologue would terrify me. If I was going to do an hour or plus of a monologue, I'd be like, that's horrible. If I was just going, like, think about cobblestones. They always make me think about meeting my first wife, you know, like that. Because I don't know where I am. Yeah, Stand up every five seconds. You know where you are.

[A]

So it really is.

[B]

And I am partially saying this to make myself say it. It's a dialogue. It's a scene. You're doing a scene with them.

[A]

And I love Stand up because you get to construct it, and you really get to construct it over time. With the monologue, maybe you sat down and wrote it, then you edit, then you wrote. But, like, in Stand up, there is a give and take where you go, that one. Okay, that one's not working the way I want. Okay. Put that one someplace else.

[B]

Stopped working.

[A]

Or you go, that. Oh, I already said that word. Yeah, I can't use that word again. They liked when I said it the first time. Diminishing returns.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

They're like all these. These kind of. I guess. I mean, it's kind of market research that you get to do where you go. Okay.

[B]

Over and over and over and over.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Over and over.

[A]

And so then my hour isn't just my hour. My hour is this, like stitching together of all these different fibers from the shows I did to build up to this hour. My hour is someone coming up to me after showing Philly and being like, oh, what about this? And I go, and so you're not know I'm stealing it and thank you.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. Like it's that the audience is helping you with it all the way. I don't mean by talking.

[A]

Not by. Not by. Yeah, we love that you're in a relationship. I can see it now. Back to me. I. The obsession with asking people if they're dating or. I know that it's like, easy. It's easy to put a video like that up. But the hard part to me is that, that I. I really want people at my show to have a good day. I never want to stop someone from getting laid because I asked about it. It's so scary.

[B]

I feel like an old man. But like, I remember doing comedy and there's a guy and he's clear. I was too young to know. He's clearly with call girl. He's with a sex worker. And you're like, oh, no. Like, yeah, you saw. You didn't know. A guy could say. Say a full sentence in silence. But he was like, please don't talk to me. Don't talk to me. This is not. Or I saw a pregnant woman smoking and she's like, don't talk to me. Like all these things. And I was like, look, I'm not here to judge anybody. I really just want everybody to have a good time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there, there is a risk you start asking them about.

[A]

And the good.

[B]

You guys happy?

[A]

Yeah, the, the good time that I want people to have is I also want people kind of to your John Wick point is to leave a show of mine and go, Jesus Christ. Yeah, I really like, stand up. I still have stand up virgins and stand up newbies come up to me after.

[B]

Oh, I love it more and more.

[A]

This is my first time I got out of the house. I'm happy. I got.

[B]

And I always go like, it goes downhill. You know, I'll share this with you because we're having such fun. The cockiest thing I say on stage if I go up early in a show is I go, you guys think it's going to get better after I do because I feel them pace themselves. I'm like, this is it.

[A]

This is it. Last night. Let's enjoy this. Now. Last night, I said something similarly cocky. I said, wait a second. Y' all ain't never met someone with confidence before. Shut up. I got stuff to say.

[B]

That's it. Okay, so going back to the. The gay coyote.

[A]

Yeah, The.

[B]

The Loki.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I think stand up helps me imbibe the spirit. Like, the thing that I always say, I say it on the pod, so I'll say it quickly, is mask work and tribes that put on a mask and they would behave like that thing.

[A]

This is very theater of you. I love mask work and pedagogy. My acting training. Like, we did mask work in undergrad and in grad school.

[B]

So, you know.

[A]

Yeah, it's commedia. You go, these are the stock characters. You have to embody Arlecchino. You have to embody, like, colombina. Like, you have to be this part of commedia, and you have to do the poses and occupy their place in the story. What? So you have to be. You have to be a tricky servant. You have to be a lecherous old man. You have to be this stoic male figure who, like, beats people up.

[B]

Because we're having a dream together.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you're gonna be. And this is what dreams are like. And it's not random. No, it seems random. That's why when you watch a movie, the mantra is always surprising but inevitable. When you're writing a story, you go, it surprised me, but yet when I think about, I go, it had to be that.

[A]

And that's why they can have flashbacks right before the ultimate scene where you go, this is. Okay. They were spoon feeding it to us.

[B]

That's right. Then you watch again. How did that surprise me? The movie opens with him dying, and I'm surprised that he dies.

[A]

But that's what comedy is. Comedy. You go, pattern recognition skills. Everyone has it. And people go, yes. And you go, okay, 1, 2. And they go, 3. And if you're clever, you go, see? They go, oh, C is three. Okay, let me do some math. And then sometimes you go, 1, 2. And they go, 3. And you go, penis. And they go, why'd you say that? And you go, it's transgressive. And they go, oh, you're right. But like.

[B]

Like, that's like Chappelle. Sorry to keep. I'm not forcing it. He talked about when he was in theater school, learning how to get them all to look at one thing so you could hit them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With something. And it's. It's like, focus their attention.

[A]

That's on the commedia. That's what. That's what slapstick comedy is. That's what, like, a lot of early kind of comedy work was. Was like, everyone look over Punch and Judy. Is that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's what these puppets are. It's here. Here, Bonk. What? It's like.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I think that's. That so much of this. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

That's what is.

[A]

And it's also, like, fun because you said about the movie, it's surprising. It's surprising, but inevitable. That's a lot of what comedy is. You go, okay, they're. Listen, Pete Holmes would not make me pay for these tickets if he wasn't gonna say something funny. Now, I'm gonna be surprised because I don't know where this funny's coming from, but I'm expecting some funny. Right?

[B]

That's right. And that's the greatest privilege of doing comedy for more than at the beginning. I still look back. That's what made crashing interesting to me, is like, you're. No, I don't mean you're nobody. Everybody's somebody. I just mean, like, to the audience, there's no relationship.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you have. That's why the first 10 years of comedy is like, I'm Pete. I look like this guy.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

This is what I'm about.

[A]

I, like, talk about this idea of comedic anonymity all the time. And the reason I specify comedic anonymity is that you walk in, the host says your name, and the crowd goes, who the is that? And if you do a good job, people, as you leave, they don't say your name, but they go, who the fuck was that? Yeah, it goes from, who the is that? To who the.

[B]

Oh, the good. Who the fuck is that?

[A]

Good. Who was that?

[B]

Same words.

[A]

Same words. Word economy. Because it's comedy.

[B]

It's very good.

[A]

It's. It's. I mean, like, I. I love it, and I'm obsessed with it, and I know that that comes across. And I hope that people also kind of realize it's fun and cool to be obsessed with something. Like right now, some people still kind of go, I'm doing stand up until I get to do this. And I go, well, I'm doing stand up because I'm lucky enough to get to do stand up. And I like it.

[B]

Yeah, it's interesting. I don't like it. I don't like the first thing you said. You know, what's funny is because I think a lot about this I was like, I like doing standup, but it's not my favorite part. My favorite part is having done stand up.

[A]

Ooh. Yeah.

[B]

I like being done with it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if I have six shows, I just did Nashville and we did six, so it's two a night for three nights. Nights. I'm not relaxed or happy until the last show, and then I put it all down, and then I'm as happy as a boy can be.

[A]

I can be happy after the two shows that night.

[B]

I know it goes like this. It's cranking up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

After the first show. This is it, man. I can't believe you relate. I'm so happy. First show, we got that out of the way. I'm loose now. I got it. I feel pretty good. Then every show after, I feel better and better and better and better. Then when it's all done and we usually get an ice cream or something.

[A]

I'm like, this is the best feeling. Innocent. I would say. I would say my obsessions right now are like, stand up and then related to you. I still am very much obsessed with the X Men in a way that is so silly and boyish, but also like.

[B]

Well, that's probably part of the fun now, right?

[A]

The fun now for me is because I love narrative and I love of. I also was a big. I liked Greek mythology, and so Greek mythology directly ties to comic books, but I also liked animals, and so taxonomic breakdown and learning as much as I can about, I have to say, vocabulary.

[B]

I've been over here mellow, but you.

[A]

Know what I mean.

[B]

Tonic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You said something earlier about melanin. Very melanin. I melanated. I've been learning all these words. I'm like, this is great. But like, taxa.

[A]

Like, taxa, taxonomic. Like, a taxonomic breakdown is basically like kingdom, phylum. Like, all of the way that we categorize animals and the way we categorize life.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

On this planet. And so for me, X Men was a part of that, because to me, X Men were the comic books in general, but X Men because of, like, the queer and kind of like, minority status and marginalization element. But I was like, but this is so cool. Imagine being like, this person has powers. And instead of me, like, they just have powers. Be like, actually, let's explain why. And you go, what? To a certain extent. To a certain.

[B]

And how would people take it?

[A]

And how would people respond?

[B]

I say, little Richard is a mutant.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

In the X Men way. I mean, that is a very high compliment, 100%. And when you watch the story of. Of those people, you see, they do have an origin story. And there is. I know it's Spider man, but there is a spider bite. Or there is, you know, for X Men is.

[A]

It's connected to what we talked about earlier. It's puberty.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

So a lot of X genes manifest at puberty. So you're going through the most stressful time ever.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then all of a sudden you blow a wall off with half your face.

[B]

Well, isn't that funny? That rogue, who is very beautiful. If I touch somebody, there's intense consequence. It's kind of like a. Well, I can't vouch for what it might or might not be saying, but it's almost like you're incredibly beautiful. You have this power that you don't even know. You kind of have to learn how to. Gotta use that for your good. Right.

[A]

And you talk.

[B]

Does that sound like puberty?

[A]

Because. Yes, yes. And you have to talk about all of the psychological elements and the components of like everyone's power was connect. Like there was always a dual. Something gained, but also something lost. Yeah. Like even if you were one of these hyper powerful individuals. Okay, let's like you. I mean, you did a whole series as Professor X. Yeah. The amount of.

[B]

But he's overwhelmed of stress. Yeah.

[A]

And the amount of kind of duplicity and lying you have to do when you know everyone else's truth. Right. Like their entire X Men arcs with Professor X lies to these people who are his students, basically. Sometimes they feel like his foster children. Where you go, why would you lie to them? And he goes, because I had to. And you go, oh my God.

[B]

He's like an oracle.

[A]

You had to.

[B]

Why are the oracles are always blind.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're always in a trance or they're always in a wheelchair.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. He has.

[B]

It's surprising but inevitable thing away. He has to be in a wheelchair. We were listening to Stevie Wonder on the way down and I almost said to my daughter, I was like, this guy's blind.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, maybe later. I didn't want to go there, but I was like, that's surprising, but inevitable.

[A]

Well, they put Brandon the wheelchair at the end of Game of Thrones. Like there's. There's an element of constraining someone with power that immeasurable. You kind of have to say, I have to. It's like in any. It's like when Luke loses his hand. You go, you have to lose something. Yep. There's something that has to be taken away from you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And even, I mean, all of my favorite X Men characters have that, like, storm. People kind of go, oh, storm can control the weather. You go, yeah. But that also means she could kill so many people. Yeah. And she also, like, she was, her origin story is like she was literally with her parents, dead bodies after an earthquake in Cairo for like two days. And so she had for the time immense claustrophobia and, and didn't trust anyone because she was orphaned. She had to roam the streets. People tried to rape her. Like, it's like insane.

[B]

And that feels like hormones too. Like teenage girls turn on their parents. So that's like the collateral damage. It's like you're becoming this powerful thing. You really just broke your mom's heart sort of thing.

[A]

Oh, my God. Whenever, you know that is seen in almost every teenage movie, there's a big fight and like, there's a door slamming moment. And like the daughter or the teenage son says something, something that's not. The whole movie's been funny. They say something not funny, but cutting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To their parent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And at the time you were like, oh, why does this feel weird? And now if you're older, you're like, God, that hurts.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I, I'm with that. And I was going, who's Magneto? It's funny. Funny that the, the bad guy. Obviously Magnet is a complicated character. Like hate or what? Or self Hate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is sort of powerful. You know what I mean? That feels correct.

[A]

And isolationism. I mean, there are so many, so many through lines that people were trying to weave with different writers about him. Like I think the.

[B]

Am I misremembering that he's kind of Malcolm xy, like a separatist.

[A]

Okay. So what happened is that Stan Lee wrote them as two kind of figures that weren't necessarily going to be MLK and Malcolm X, but that was sort of like later impressed upon them MLK.

[B]

And Malcolm X. I could just hear Stanley saying it.

[A]

Well, one of them's gonna be MLK Magneto. He also was like such a magneto. Yeah, that's what he kind of. He had that accent.

[B]

Maga Nettle.

[A]

Oh, wow. All right.

[B]

It was there, man.

[A]

But there is an element of Magneto that, that especially 80s where people were kind of questioning what it means to have an ethnostate. So that's connected to that because he's a Jew. He's arguably one of the most famous Jewish characters in comic books. And he's created two, not three, different kind of nation states for mutants exclusively. And because I think he has, like a very interesting relationship with media. Like, because he kind of became more of an anti hero than a full on villain. He wouldn't time people to train tracks. He was like, stop hurting mutants. But in the 60s, he was like, I want to take over the world. And they're like, we're going to stop you with this wooden gun. And he was like, you got me. You got me. Actually, who told.

[B]

Who told your name?

[A]

Yeah, wooden handcuffs, too. Y' all are prepared.

[B]

Triple lacquered handcuffs. We got Magneto. I love this. I love this so much. Okay, I don't want to run out of time. Let's talk a little bit about the meaning of life.

[A]

Life. Okay.

[B]

That's also tied for first. You have so much funny standup about being married but not being boring. And I'm obviously like anybody. I'm like, what does this mean? Like, you out here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Every now and then your husband.

[A]

We have fun threesomes every now and then.

[B]

Is your husband bisexual?

[A]

No. So I'm bisexual. My husband. He is. My. My husband is gay. But I would say he probably identifies more as like, homo, flexible now because we also understand that there's so many ways that you gender can pop up for people that if you. I mean, hot people kind of get to do whatever they want. That's the rule.

[B]

And that's your husband.

[A]

That's my husband. But yeah, the jokes about us, whoops.

[B]

I was straight for 15 seconds. You get to look at me, though.

[A]

Yeah, I think. I think that me joking about, like, the fact that we've had threesomes, the fact that we've, like, had like fun with other couples.

[B]

So I love your joke about your wedding and how there's overlap.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it was that.

[B]

But you people that you've slept with.

[A]

But at a gay wedding, there are moments where you kind of go, okay, I've seen his ass, I've seen his dick. I've hooked up with him.

[B]

Well, Jay, forgive me for making you the representative of.

[A]

Please do.

[B]

But I'm just talking to you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not the whole culture, just you. But it is something I've heard is like, there's a wedding.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's six gay guys. They're going to.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Or they have. Or.

[B]

I mean, like, we'll get together, there'll be like a party. Because I won't say who, but a gay friend of mine will be like, you don't know what it's like to be the seventh gay guy that wasn't invited. I will. It's it's, it's a comic. Bren Brent. James Sullivan has a great joke where he's like, you're not invited to the gay orgy. I don't.

[A]

Or, or even like not full on orgy as far as like everyone participating. But sometimes on like a fire island house, like let's say there is a bedroom and a bedroom and two downstairs be bedrooms. Sometimes, like if there's a big pool party, you'll be like, oh, those people are kind of hooking up in the stairwell. I have to get past these people jerking each other off and kissing to go upstairs to my husband to have good Christian gay set. Yeah. And you're like, well, if they're jerking off for a little bit, I gotta watch them jerk off. So now I'm kind of involved in this. I gotta go to my husband. I go, hey, they're jerking off downstairs.

[B]

It was an impediment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was an obstacle.

[A]

Like these video games are hard. And so then I frogger the VR goggles. And so then my husband goes, they're not jerking off. I go, go downstairs and look. He goes, will you come down with me? So like at that point it's not sometimes these are. One time in Prior Island, I specifically remember I was in the pool and my husband like kind of gave me the signal that he was like, he wanted to go upstairs. So we went upstairs. But because other gay guys sort of also were looking at if my husband accidentally gave the signal to another guy. So he comes up, his boyfriend's got to come up. So now there are four people. So then four people are in the room. And so then the owners of the house have an adjoining room. So they hear what's going on. They come by, say, hey, check and see if everyone's okay. So now there's six people in the room. If you give a mouse a cookie, it's very. I think that there is.

[B]

Give a mouse a cookie.

[A]

There's a, there's a silicone based slippery slope to a lot of this, this water based. Water based. Yeah. We, we want to be able to wash the sheets. I, I think that like there's also like a little bit of. And this goes back we were talking about with homosocial relationships for a lot of gay guys and ex. Unless you're like very prim and proper sometimes jerking off or giving a blowjob, it feels very much like a handshake in the sense you go, it's just skin. We're kind of just being naked together and everyone's Destigmatized. There's destigmatized in the same way that. Okay. And this is for straight people, the closest thing that they have is chicken. So if you're in the pool and you're playing like the chicken game.

[B]

Oh, the game.

[A]

The game. Chicken on the shoulders. Yeah. So having someone's crotch on your neck. And it's usually girls. It's a guy as the base girl on top. And, you know, now it's 20, 25. So flip it if you want to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Progression.

[B]

Sure. But either way, some way, something's getting pressed against. Yeah.

[A]

And you're in the water, you're in swimsuits, in various states of undressed. If there wasn't the threat of impregnation or the idea that, like, you know, straight people have to follow all these rules, they would hook up too. It would be. It would be an orgy.

[B]

I understand. I can hear my wife agree.

[A]

Would your wife let you put another woman on your shoulder?

[B]

This is Pulp Fiction. I wouldn't give another woman a foot massage either. See, I absolutely wouldn't. See, it's funny. Val is of the thing. She's like, I want to see everybody's butt.

[A]

I do want to see everyone's butt. Me and Val are locked in. I want to see everyone's butt.

[B]

If Val was butt, I would get her in here and she's helped me be like, wait, I want to see everybody's butt too. She's like. She also is like, everybody should be kissing.

[A]

Yeah, okay. Yes.

[B]

Okay. I thought you were going to take it away.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

She's like, I don't know. We love people, we should be kissing.

[A]

I listen. That is the one thing that as a person who. As a day walker, as a gay walker, a bisexual.

[B]

Is that a Blade reference? Yeah.

[A]

So Blade's a damn fear. I'm a damn queer. And so I try to bring that energy to all my straight friends because my gay friends have it in excess. I try to. I'm bringing a straight friend of mine who's a very funny comic. John Marcos is racy. He's. We're going to Fire Island. Yeah.

[B]

John Marco did the show.

[A]

Yeah. He's doing a show in a Speedo, I think, on Fire island with me. He's a baby, but he's also going to be objectified. But there's also. He's going to bring his girlfriend. But there's also, to me, there's a very fun and almost 70s style element of like bringing straighter people to queer Spaces and having. Because the queerest thing you can do after you've reached kind of peak gay is bring a straight guy and a girl. Because now a lot of this is what's going on in the gay streets. Pete. I don't know if, you know, a lot of gay guys are now figuring out their bisexuality. They call the sex. Yeah. The coldest.

[B]

I just needed a second.

[A]

That's very good. Yeah. The roundabouts. So a lot of gay guys are figuring out that they have these burgeoning feelings of bisexuality and kind of homo flexibility. Interesting. Because their aversion to women was one that was impressed upon them and one that was a bit performative and one that they thought they were kind of getting rid of heteronormativity and getting rid of these, like, social norms. And that now, because they have time and they're older, they can really investigate and say, oh, well, actually, there is a part of me that really does want to. Like, I am attracted to this girl. I'm attracted to a number of different body types. I'm attracted to these people.

[B]

This is Chasing Amy. Remember Chasing Amy?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Where she's like. Wasn't the whole point of getting into being a lesbian.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Was to, like, figure out what I am. And now I'm in love with a guy. Yeah.

[A]

Which is, to me, the fun that we get to have with things now. So I think that, like, whenever I talk about all the gay stuff as a comic, my favorite thing is when straight couples come up to me afterwards and, like, the girlfriends. The girlfriends love doing this. They go, he's a little by. And the husband goes, no. And I go, yes, you are. Okay. I said, you bought a ticket. I said, I'm usually a mosquito on my Instagram. You follow me? I get it.

[B]

Okay. I love it.

[A]

Talking about it.

[B]

No, I love all of this. I. I don't want you to not get to talk about the meaning of life, because I am. I am fascinated with sexuality and all of its expressions and because it's so intermeshed with freedom and identity. So I could do it all day.

[A]

No, let's do it.

[B]

But you need a proper. You made it weird. 10 minute here at the end.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Do you have a. In this moment, like, a feeling about what this is?

[A]

Yeah, I. And it's a tiny bit connected to your Netflix special and connected to something that someone very smart and beautiful kind of told me there is a beauty in entropy. And so right now, tell me what that mean. Okay.

[B]

So, yeah, I always think it means moving.

[A]

So moving. And a spreading and a diffusion of all of that. This. So right now it's very condensed. And at the end of all of this, at the end of all things, it will scatter about and I will be reduced back to whatever components and elements I came from. And I think that going towards that is a bit like going towards the collective and going towards heaven for some people. So heaven, if heaven is you getting to be with God again forever, and if God is the universe, then that's all that means to certain people, is when I die, there's a part of me that will be spread far and wide. Like also when this rock gets gobbled up by the sun and that kind of, like, weird swirling mass of what's left is what's what we're striving for. And so, so many people get scared because they go, oh, like it's nothing. And you kind of talk what people mean when they say nothing and what nothingness is. And I think it's not nothing, it's just everything, but it's just in such tiny little parts that we're going to be spread out amongst it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's what every. That's what we do, no matter what. That's what I do when I, like, meet people. When I meet someone, I met them. And that is part of this spreading, swirling mass. Because we interacted for that long, we, like, collided into each other and that bumped them into some other trajectory. That's right. That's what it is. So, like, on a macro and a micro level, that's what I think it is.

[B]

I think that's.

[A]

That's what I think about.

[B]

Well, I'm so glad I asked. Yes. That the image that you brought to mind, I sometimes think about, like, if you ever look at, like, a lake when it's raining, it's raining hard, and it's almost like sprite.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like an effervescence rises from it. I sometimes think of us as this effervescence that's above a lake that's created by the rain. So the interaction, like you said, of these two things creates this illusion of Almost like a hologram. Yeah, There we are. And when that hologram goes away, it looks sad, like something ended, but really it was always just water.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And it was water that was active and moving. And because that's its nature.

[B]

It's entropy. It's what it wants to do. Using your word.

[A]

No, exactly. That's because it wants to do your word. Well, because when I was even kind of first introduced to the Concept of like life and death. The first death I really, really had to deal with hard. And this is so funny. It was a barber who was my. He was my barber. And my mom would drop me off at Paul's with my brother and he would cut our hair. My mom came home one day crying, and she told us, well, Paul passed away from a motorcycle accident. And I, like, just lost it. It was the first time I had like someone who I saw every two weeks and they were gone. I went and I just didn't know.

[B]

It's an abduction, basically.

[A]

Yeah. He was taken from me in a way that I don't think I'll ever really know how to. That first moment, like, my heart dropped in a way. I was like, I wasn't close, close with him, but like, I was close with him. And so when my mom would talk about heaven, I would kind of be like, I'd have like a very kind of like young Christian view of heaven where like, everyone is going to be up there in white and clouds and stuff. Stuff. And so as I continued to like move through the world and my relationship with Christianity changed, I started to think in a more humanist and kind of universal perspective. And so when I was introduced to this concept, like, if we're from the universe, we will return to the universe. And if you think that God is universe and you will be with God at the end of all of this, if that's your relationship and that's the nomenclature you want to use, I was like, oh, so, like, they're not wrong. My mom, mom still devout Christian. My mom's one of those Christians who goes Monday, Wednesday, Saturday, Sunday, like, loves church, loves the communal aspect of the southern black church. My mom casually will talk about how like, Dr. King came to her church in the 60s. My mom was born in 1958. So she like saw it. She's seen everything. And my mom loves church and my mom, she doesn't. Even when I came out, there was no, you're going to hell. When I got married, there was no, like, this isn't right. It was always like, my mom has a ministry and a relationship with Christianity that is so love based and so kindness based. Primarily because she's a teacher, because she teaches. She taught special needs for 30 years that her version of Christianity is so beautiful and so works oriented that like, I can't even say, oh, I don't believe in God. Because the God that my mom believes in and works towards to me is one, is a God of help and a God of service. So Like, I love. If I believe in, like, anything, it is that serving people while you're here is such a beautiful and selfless act that, of course my mom's God is real. And so I have a slightly different relationship based on, like, you know, a couple of teachings that other people have. Kind of like, what was the other. The other thing that I got.

[B]

I didn't mean to cut you off.

[A]

The other thing that I got a lot of was that we are here to also be humans and enjoy our bodies. And that came from acting. That came from, like, also, like, just queerness and the celebration of, well, the.

[B]

Incarnation, meaning just becoming into form isn't a mistake.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This has been coming up a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Conversations.

[A]

Why do we have skin? Why do we have nerve endings if we're not supposed to be pleasuring them?

[B]

And.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Well, I. I would agree with that. And also the idea that you don't know better than. Let's. Let's use very classic religious language. Who are you to say, you know better? Like, it should have. Like, life should have started in heaven. It's here. It's here. And. And this is what we're doing.

[A]

Right. Listen, that. I mean, a lot of black, A lot of Southern Missionary Baptist is, be a good person, have a good time. Time. Be a good person, have a good time. Have some children. And you go, well, how you supposed to make them? You know? You know what I mean? Like, there is a level. And then my church was also never like, that girl's going to hell because she had a baby out of marriage. We were just happy that baby has support. Oh, make sure that baby gets something to eat. Like, I have a. My. I want to say one of the things I was very lucky with was that even my pastors were never very fire and brimstone. They didn't necessarily talk about queer bitterness at all. So that erasure wasn't something that, like, I would even, like, know how to, like, deal with.

[B]

But neither did she.

[A]

They were just. Neither did you. Right. Exactly. Exactly.

[B]

And I think the sin, the sins. I don't mean that of the body we're so obsessed with. It has so much to do with.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Shame. And it has nothing to do with.

[A]

Spirituality and King James being a faggot himself. Right. Don't do this gay stuff. I'm doing. Put it well.

[B]

That's one. Based on your metric. That's one. So you can say it one time. That's your rule.

[A]

But there's like, a very, very huge.

[B]

By the way, was King James gaming Whoa. Surprising but inevitable.

[A]

Surprising but inevitable. Who wrote all these gossipy ass stories in this book?

[B]

That's right.

[A]

My relationship with Christianity. Because, like, my sister's still a very, like, very good practicing Christian. And my brother, he still goes to church. And his two kids, my niece and my nephew, they're being raised in the church. I have, I have like a new bit I'm working on about Jesus getting blow jobs. That to me is like giving, getting, or giving, but getting. Because. And, and part of one of the things I even say is I go, y' all are uncomfortable right now because to maintain his divinity, a lot of y' all are kind of robbing Jesus of the human aspect of his life. I want you to remember he was just a dude. If you don't want Jesus to get his dick sucked, think about how much he's done for you. That's great. That's very, very true. And so people laugh at that, but they're also, It's. I'm also kind of embodying some preacher stuff that I remember from growing up. Cause being a preacher to me was like one of those other elements of like, oh, it's a big performer who's talking for a long time, who also gets laughed.

[B]

Like, stand up.

[A]

Kind of stand up.

[B]

It is. Yep, yep.

[A]

Even it's a kind of rite of passage. As a young black comedian, you have a bit where you kind of do preach.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On something that isn't religious. And you kind of map that and the kind of. The distance between the two is funny.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So, like, I, I still think that, like, religion has such a good place for so many people when it's not used as a cudgel to bonk people on the head. They're like, I, I'm never gonna be one of those people who's like, get it out of here. But I'm gonna be like, oh, this is such an interesting take. I love narrative. Narrative, too. I love mythology. I love comic books.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Right. Come on.

[B]

You can't be all mad at it.

[A]

You can't be mad at it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. A couple things came to mind. One is Father Greg Boyle, who I'm obsessed with, talks about the mystical lens, which is the lens you look through to know which parts you take and which parts you don't take. And he's like. And if you think that he doesn't say it exactly like this. He's like, if you think that's weird. Like, we always thought, like, if you were a Christian, you believe the Bible. You can't leave this part. It's right there. It says this.

[A]

This.

[B]

This horrible thing. He's like, Jesus is doing it constantly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When he's talking about the Old Testament, he's picking and choosing. So that's called the mystical lens. And you have. You are.

[A]

You're the lens.

[B]

You are the lens.

[A]

Yeah. And.

[B]

And that. What you are.

[A]

If we're the lens, the light that shines through us, the prism that's created, that's your relationship with the divine.

[B]

It is the divine. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

That's rainbow. It's a rainbow.

[B]

It is a rainbow. Rainbow. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Well, we don't have time because my family's here. But I mean, I think the. The arc of any transformative story, spiritual transformation, sexual. Understand. Whatever it is, it's the same story over and over.

[A]

Oh, my God, it's over. We think about this. I mean, in X Men, the four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are actually manifest. Like, Apocalypse, the X Men villain has four horsemen. Why? Because riders know religious iconography is so ingrained in us, especially through Western media, that they have to figure out, like, he made angel the archangel of death for a. Like, it's so there. And that, to me, is like one of those beautiful moments where I was like, I'm obsessed with this. Why am I obsessed with X Men and religion at the time. Same. Same time.

[B]

Y. I mean, and then I don't know how you feel about Deadpool, Wolverine, but, like, them holding hands and dying and coming back, I'm like, it's over. I don't.

[A]

Whoa. I mean, stop. The religious implications of, like, a man who can raise, like, raised from the dead and what he feels like his duty to have a good life is that, to me, is like Wolverine. You mean Wolverine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Deadpool to.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's sort of Wolverine with gun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not. It's not. And that's why I always. I always like Deadpool. I don't have a lot of things that I can be like. I liked it before. It was cool. Yeah, I did. I. I had Deadpool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Good.

[A]

Come on. Yeah. Well, I mean, at X Force, you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're such a fun. I love people who are to me, like this cobbling of different things.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that is everyone. But sometimes when you really get to meet someone and you go, oh, you have so many things you like.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny, we talked a lot about. About homosocial and what I got, what I took from that, I'M sure it's not. The whole thing is like, it's just precious to spend time bonding, connecting. There was shame, there was fear there, but there was just laughing. This was a beautiful episode. I, I hate to wrap it up.

[A]

This was a beautiful episode.

[B]

This would have been a three ep. This would have been a three hour episode for sure. But my family's here.

[A]

Family's here.

[B]

We can hug. We're going to hug. I felt, I felt lurch forward for.

[A]

I'm going to, we're to going to do it. Yeah, it's happening.

[B]

We could have talked about personal training. I'm over here, I'm like, I need.

[A]

Some tips, some acting tips. The personal training is. It's fun, but it is like, it's, it's a tough gig. It's a tough gig. Do you still do it? No, I don't do it anymore. I, I did my first Tonight show appearance and literally the next day I showed up to the gym to train my clients and someone's like, but you did a tv. And I was like, do you think I'm going to live the rest of my life in New York off of that fourteen hundred dollars? I said, I'm about to make eight hundred from y' all today. Give me my money. I got three sessions.

[B]

That's a bet.

[A]

Yeah, four. Like, what's true? People go, I saw you on tv. I go and yeah, okay. You saw Dua Lipa up there too. You think we make the same amount?

[B]

Well, you'll come back.

[A]

Yes, I'll come back.

[B]

You'll come back and we'll plug whatever you got up top. Would you say, keep it crispy, what we've been talking about. Everything we've been talking about is crisp.

[A]

Keep it crispy.

[B]

There it is. He didn't.

[A]

Crispy.

[B]

There it. There it is. Jean Marco in a Speedo.