Jesse David Fox Returns

Summary

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You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes

Episode: Jesse David Fox Returns

Release Date: April 23, 2025
Guest: Jesse David Fox (author, podcaster, comedy critic)
Main Theme: The art, evolution, and future of comedy in an age of digital disruption, authenticity debates, and AI.

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Episode Overview

Pete Holmes welcomes back Jesse David Fox, comedy critic for Vulture, host of the Good One podcast, and author of Comedy Book. The episode is a sprawling, energetic dive into the nuances of comedy as an art form and how it’s adapting (or not) to cultural, digital, and technological shifts. They discuss authenticity, the repeating cycles and patterns among comedians, the impact of platforms and algorithms on comedic voices, and the philosophical questions of self-expression, artifice, and meaning. The episode’s tone is playful, self-reflexive, and deeply curious—full of both laughter and intellectual rabbit holes.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Comedy, Artistry, and Perception (03:50–14:36)

• Jesse notes the challenge of being a guest vs. a host on podcasts, emphasizing the importance of taking notes and keeping track, mirroring the discipline required in both comedy and criticism (03:52).
• Pete compliments Jesse’s Comedy Book, observing that comedians are often skeptically impressed by anyone tackling comedy in book form:

  “So many comedians have gone, ‘Have you read Jesse’s book? ... It’s actually really good.’ And that has nothing to do with you. That has to do with the undertaking of writing a book about comedy.” – Pete (06:16)

• Inside comedy “baseball”: Pete recounts a joke about Kumail Nanjiani that he ultimately cut from his special out of sensitivity and concern about its interpretation, highlighting how the context and intention of humor get complicated in public spaces (07:27–09:49).

2. Stand-Up, Mediums, and the “Hotness” of Imagination (10:36–15:33)

• The duo debate the value and drawbacks of supplementing stand-up with screens or documentary footage, referencing Jenny Slate’s special as an example. Jesse feels proving the truth of on-stage stories via cut-in footage can be antithetical to stand-up’s magic:

  “There is something about the need to prove that what you’re saying on stage is true that I find antithetical to the art quality of stand up… I want to see how your brain works and how your brain paints the picture in my head, and not just being like: see, I really captured their voice.” – Jesse (12:03)

• They discuss the difference between “hot” (imagination-engaging, e.g., audio) and “cold” (showing everything, e.g., video/TV) media, with Pete noting that audio-only records like Steve Martin’s allow the audience to imagine and thus become more engaged (13:00–14:46).

3. Titles, Inclusion, and “Chef’s Reimagining” (15:33–18:45)

• Jesse muses on the challenge of titling Comedy Book:

  “I have a Google alert for comedy book. And it is almost never my book… It’s very punk rock.” – Jesse (15:53)

• They liken unique comedians (like Demetri Martin) to “chef’s reimagining” of a classic dish, highlighting how the comedy audience’s desire for innovation rises when the market is flooded with sameness (18:25–18:45).

4. The Cycle of Comedy Trends and the Impact of Audience and Algorithms (22:56–29:32)

• Repetitiveness in comedy: Jesse shares that his early excitement for stand-up faded due to the monotony of material and audience interactions, e.g., being called “Harry Potter” for having glasses by multiple comics (22:53).
• Pete observes that comedy catered to infrequent audiences led to formulaic performances; Jesse points out the shift:

  “Too much comedy or too many comedians gear their actions to people who see almost no comedy whatsoever.” – Jesse (23:47)

• Both lament how the rise of social media and algorithms is narrowing comedic voices, rewarding styles that fit platform templates rather than those arising from authentic exploration (28:25–29:32).

5. Authenticity, Performance, and the Myth Thereof (34:08–38:18)

• Jesse posits that “authenticity” in performance is itself a constructed ideal, not a natural state:

  “Authenticity is not that old of a concept… As a result, authenticity had been fetishized for decades. Even though there are people ... who would be like, ‘Authenticity is a fraud. The idea that you can be authentic: every single person gets up and puts on a shirt. You can’t not decide to put on a ... It's a performance as well.’” – Jesse (34:24)

• Discussion of self-awareness and meta-commentary in comedy—how acknowledging tropes (e.g., “every comedian has a joke about their prostate exam; here’s mine”) has become its own sign of honesty (37:07).

6. Comedy as Connection and Art—Polishing the Mirror (39:41–41:10)

• They delve into comedy’s power as a tool for near-universal communication and emotional resonance, using laughter as proof of mutual understanding:

  “Comedy is great because ... We’re not going for tears or, like, silence. We’re going for an involuntary [response]: ‘I understood you.’ So—has a real appeal to children that felt misunderstood.” – Pete (39:55)

• Jesse frames comedians as polishing a “steel” into a mirror through audience feedback, culminating in a shared experience (41:04).

7. The Threat and Banality of AI in Comedy (50:07–56:32)

• They address the current and speculative roles of AI, from joke generation to content curation. Jesse warns:

  “The dystopia ... it’s just much more boring. AI will get to the point that people use it to write their emails, and then people use AI to read that email and reply to it ... So then, as a result, AI is living a mundane life and we’re doing nothing.” – Jesse (55:24)

• Pete and Jesse agree that algorithm-driven feeds are making comedy (and culture by extension) more homogenous, less surprising, and less human (54:45–56:18).

8. Hedonic Treadmills, Mortality, and Appreciating the Present (58:56–68:13)

• The conversation widens into philosophical territory: how chasing infinite pleasure (food, sex, entertainment) doesn’t satisfy, and real appreciation comes from understanding limits—especially mortality.

  “Literally, all death informs kids’ cake. Death informs all joy—hypothetically, that is the potential that it is limited.” – Jesse (64:52)

• They discuss the human response to mortality, the (futile) pursuit of digital or biological immortality, and the meaning of “being alive” within or outside those quests (68:13–68:19).

9. Spiritual and Existential Wrapping Up (73:17–82:21)

• The episode closes on a reflection of spirituality, uncertainty, and the endless quest to “know what it is”—be it the self, consciousness, or the purpose of comedy.
• Jesse shares lines from the book’s epigraph:

  “Humor is the last stage of existential awareness before faith.” – Soren Kierkegaard
  “Comedy is to make everybody laugh at everything and deal with things, you idiot.” – Joan Rivers (84:16)

• The book’s heart, Jesse reveals, is that comedy (and writing about it) is his way of understanding and communicating how he sees the world (85:25).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the dangers of comedic homogeneity:

  “Too much comedy or too many comedians gear their actions to people who see almost no comedy whatsoever.” — Jesse (23:47)

• On “hot” mediums:

  “Valley Heat podcast ... it almost ruins it because the way it comes out, you have to imagine it so that maybe you know this. That’s called a hot medium, meaning you’re engaged with it ... A cold medium is television. It just shows it to you.” – Pete (13:00)

• On authenticity as artifice:

  “Authenticity is a fraud. The idea that you can be authentic… Every single person gets up and puts on a shirt. You can’t not decide to put on a ... It's a performance as well of what they want to communicate. And it's very transparent on stage.” — Jesse (34:24)

• On audience as creative collaborators:

  “The comedian has an observation ... and through audience interaction, it polishes ... it becomes a reflection of the audience because of the audience’s response.” – Jesse (41:04)

• On AI and the end of mutual experience:

  “AI will create a feed for AI to consume and then tell you all the things it did ... The self that is the artist is being removed and the self that is the art consumer is being removed.” – Jesse (56:08)

• On mortality and the appreciation of pleasure:

  “The reason you appreciate chocolate cake is that you know that you will only have a hundred before you die ... Death informs all joy.” – Jesse (64:50)

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Notable Segment Timestamps

• On cutting jokes for sensitivity: 07:27–09:49
• Philosophy of ‘hot’ vs. ‘cold’ mediums: 13:00–14:46
• Comedian market trends and uniqueness: 18:25–23:33
• Algorithmic compression of comedic voices: 28:25–29:32
• Deep dive into authenticity and performance: 34:08–38:18
• The banality of an AI-driven future: 55:24–56:32
• Mortality and the value of limits: 64:50–68:19
• Epigraph quotes and book summary: 84:16–85:25

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Closing Tone and Takeaways

This episode is a meandering, deeply self-aware conversation about how comedy functions as art, how it’s shaped by and shapes both audience and performer, and how it must adapt (or not) to a changing technological environment. Pete and Jesse repeatedly circle back to the importance of self-knowledge, the inevitability of artifice, and the necessity of appreciating comedy—and life—in light of our limitations.

Final Words:

“Comedy is everything. It’s my way through to everything. Like, it’s how I understand the world. And writing about comedy is how I can communicate how I see the world… The goal is to make people, I think, appreciate comedy differently and to appreciate it as an art form in the hope of them just being able to generally appreciate things more deeply.” – Jesse (85:25)

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[A]

You made it weird. You made it weird.

[B]

You made it weird.

[A]

Oh, yeah. You made it weird. Yes, you did. You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[B]

What's happening, weirdos? This is Jesse Fox. Fox said that, like, FM radio, Jesse David Fox, who is an incredible author, he just wrote. Well, it came out a little while ago, but I just read it, and it's incredible. It's called Comedy Book, and it's about the history, the. The evolution and the impact of comedy. Obviously, we talk a lot about comedy in this episode. Every single time I've sat down with Jesse, it's been a delight, and this is no exception. He's also the host of the hit podcast Good One, where he interviews comedians about their process. And he is one of the senior editors at Vulture, where he works as the comedy critic. And he's awesome. I love talking with him. And this. This episode is one of those times that I love talking with him. Hey, different Pete jumping in here to talk about the tour. We have changed the name of the tour. It was the PG13 tour. We are now calling the tour the Pete Here Now Tour. Because I did one show under the banner PG13 in Austin. It was an awesome show. I loved it. But I got off stage and I was like, that wasn't. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not really PG13. I can't be standing in front of an audience and not just use everything I got. Every trick, every word, every face, every. Anything I can to delight you, every. And make you laugh as hard as possible. And what happened is I wrote a bunch of jokes that were, you know, edging me out of the PG13 category, but they were my favorite jokes. And I was like, I can't. I'm not going to cut these jokes to stay in these boundaries that I made up sort of almost as a lark because a lot of the material was cleaner and now some of it isn't. And then I was like, well, I'll call it the Soft R Tour. And I was like, why am I even asking people to look at the show through that lens? Like, where is it on the spectrum of movie ratings? I don't like it. I don't. I'm putting it away. I'm saying, that's egg on my face. I apologize. It's not the PG13 Tour. It's exactly like what I've done my whole career. It's as dirty as I am, and it's as honest as I am. And I'm really happy to say it is by far my favorite hour. I'VE ever done. And I don't want to do stand up with one hand tied behind my back or blindfolded. It's hard enough. All I want to do is make you laugh. All I want to do is delight you. And I'm going to do everything in my power and in my skills, my skills, like Liam Neeson, everything in my specific set of skills to get you there and to get you laughing, because we need that so much. So no more PG13 tour. If you bought tickets to Toronto and you wanted it to be, you know, you and your nana, I apologize. I'm sure the you can call the theater, but I think you should still come. I think you'll still love it. Just know it as the Pete Here now tour. So we're going to update that tour art as soon as we have it, but the dates remain the same. May 10, I'll be in Toronto. Then Los Angeles, Nashville, Irvine, San Jose, Houston, Royal Oak, Michigan, Washington, D.C. boston. We just added a second show for Boston. And Cleveland, Ohio was just announced. All of those on peteholmes.com for now. The new Pete Here now. The Pete Here now tour. All right, back to past Pete throwing you to this show, to this episode. I hope you enjoy it. In the meantime, enjoy. Author of comedy book Jesse David Fox. Get into it.

[A]

For me also to keep notes.

[B]

Oh, that is a first.

[A]

It's like, I've done enough that I was like, why is this harder than when I host? I was like, oh, well, when I host, I'm like, keeping track of what I want to say.

[B]

Yeah, of course. That makes perfect sense.

[A]

So then I was like, oh, well, if I also have notes.

[B]

Well, can I tell you, that's exactly what happened with me is when I was guesting on other people's podcasts and this was over 10 years ago that I would take notes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's because I wanted to be hosting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you already have a podcast. I already have a podcast. You host the podcast. Good one. And this is Jesse Fox. I never do that. I never really introduced the guest.

[A]

That happened the last time I was on. You were like, let me do an intro. I don't know what I did to see what happens.

[B]

You get. You get introed.

[A]

That's very nice.

[B]

And we're here to talk about. Well, it doesn't matter now. I've turned into a proper.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

Comedy.

[A]

Let's act like I just walked in. What would you say?

[B]

Oh, what's up, man? Oh, yeah, I used to live here. It's Actually, the same small talk as I come in every single time.

[A]

It's become routine where the guest is already sitting down.

[B]

No, I usually. Katie had to get you because I was. We double booked. We've never done that in our lives. In over 10 years, I've never double booked. So Carol Leaford just left, and you're coming in, and you were. I'm gonna use the word mensch. I said, would you please kill an hour and a half? And you did it. And I know your time is valuable, and I appreciate it.

[A]

Oh, that's very sweet to think my time's so valuable. It was very lovely to get to walk around Los Ang Angeles.

[B]

I love. And this neighborhood is one of the few walkable.

[A]

Exactly. I mean, I used to live a very long time ago aroundish here. And I was like, oh, I can, like, see what it was like and see if I remember.

[B]

Yeah. And it's like, it hasn't changed that much, right?

[A]

No, I didn't know. I was like, what if they knocked down the housing complex? That. Or whatever. And they didn't.

[B]

Oh, they didn't. Yeah. No, it's pretty much the same. Like, the House of Pies is right over there. And when I was watching Pumping Iron, the Schwarzenegger documentary, and he talks about going to the House of Pies and stuff, and I'm like, holy shit, Schwarzenegger ate carbs. And it's so annoying. I'm gonna do my impression. It's. Yeah, but he knows. Who cares? It's just gonna be funny for me. But he goes like, you can eat anything you want. You just have to burn it off. And I'm like, fuck you, man. Who's eating a pie and then burning off 2000? He is.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I eat a pie and I go to bed.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's. Well, if you burned it off, you can look exactly like him.

[B]

I don't want to. I cut a line. This is your. Up your alley. I'm excited. I'm excited for this because you love comedy and I love your book. And I want to tell you, so many comedians have gone, have you read Jesse's book? And they go, it's really good. And I actually do want to tell you what they really say. They go, it's really good. Actually, I would get that. And that has nothing to do with you.

[A]

Yeah, 100%.

[B]

That has to do with the undertaking of writing a book about comedy. And then comedians are like, it's actually really good. So a lot of people told me to check it out. Not Just you. So to start with, some inside baseball, because I know you love it. So my last special, I had a joke about Kumail being newly buff. And some of those jokes made it in the special. I go, I've hugged Kumail. I'm like, what, are you mad at me? It's about how it's not fun to hug a hard body and. But there was another joke in there where I go, I knew Kumail when he had a unibrown smoke. Parliaments, which is true. Now he looks like a horse in a medium T shirt. And I thought that was a fun way if you don't know who he is, to be like, he's jacked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I give it to Neil Brennan and Mike Birbigli and Andrew Santino. Those are usually the three people I give my specials to. And Neil Brennan writes, I love that you called Camille a horse in a medium T shirt. And he says this. He goes, and it's racist. And no one will ca. Being racist. He. He's messing with me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But he's saying, like, it's because he's brown.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

This is fun intel for me.

[A]

I had no idea.

[B]

I told the joke a thousand times. I never was like, this is a fun brown joke. I was like, it's a horse joke.

[A]

Horses aren't only brown, Jesse.

[B]

I spent so much time going, horses can be black, they can be white, they can be spotted, they can be zebras. It doesn't matter. They can be zebras. I think zebras are horses. Come on. That's a good Horses. That reminds me of another joke I had where I go. This is how the presidents go. Washington, Lincoln, Kennedy, Clinton. Like, none of those other guys count.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like when you think of presidents, your brain has four presidents. Yeah.

[B]

And Hamilton is one of them. And he wasn't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? But he's on the 10. Come on. Any. Who's a woozle? Sorry. I'm talking so much. Coming off my leaf or buzz. Leaf or buzz. Sorry. Ptsd. That seems up your alley. I ended up cutting the joke. It cost, let's say, $3,500 because the picture was locked.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

We went in and trimmed out, me saying, kumail looks like a horse in a medium T shirt. And here we are. That's. That's a ripe comedy area for you.

[A]

Did you ask Kumail?

[B]

Believe it or not, I've been friends with Kumail a really long time, especially when he first got buff. There was a real heir to his celebrity that I even. I was intimidated by it. And I didn't want to bother him. And I didn't want to say, do you think this joke is racist? Like, I just went, forget it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Anyone can think I'm saying that I'm cutting it and I'm not going to bother him. Later, I saw Kumail and mentioned that I had cut out a joke, thinking he might say, what joke? He just went, thanks, man. So I was like, oh, I did the right thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I thought it was gonna be like a green room. Like, really? What joke? And I'd tell him and he'd be like, that's fine. But he just went, thank you. Because I think he was getting a lot of attention.

[A]

It was. I feel like Hasan was telling a joke about him as well. Like, it felt like a lot of people in comedy felt like they needed to reckon with the fact.

[B]

Well, Hassan put up the pict.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which I'm like, I mean, you want to get out another comedy? I'm like, ken, audio, video. I'm a real. I'm a fucking Amish in terms of video comedy. I'm like, get that out of here. I'm not saying that to drag Hasan. I think what he does is amazing and millions of people love it. I'm just like, whenever there's, like, a show and the premise of the show is there's a screen and we're gonna draw what you're talking about. I'm like, no, thank you.

[A]

Writing that down. The thing I was gonna say. Yeah, but, well, two things. One, his last special, he doesn't do that anymore.

[B]

Well, yeah, I didn't know that. But I said, well, yeah, I would imagine that that's, like, a fun thing to play. And then maybe not.

[A]

But I did think. I was recently, I spent a lot of time thinking, could a comedian play the sphere? Do you know the sphere in Las Vegas?

[B]

Yes, that's probably gonna happen. And I say that with a sigh.

[A]

But, like, what. Who can do it? What is it? Right.

[B]

Sebastian can do it.

[A]

Yeah, we can sell it. But. But, like, what happens on the screens?

[B]

A big close up of Sebastian's face.

[A]

I literally thought you were gonna say a bowl of spaghetti. I've done a lot of material about.

[B]

Like, a fork going into Italian dinner, but it's Will Smith eating the spaghetti. AI. So it's, like, disturbing. I don't know, man. Like, where are you on that? I haven't read the whole book. Does that come up?

[A]

AI.

[B]

No, not AI. I do have that on My notes. I'd love to talk to you about that, but my notes. But when it comes to supplemented standup in any way. Is that in there?

[A]

I think I'm trying to remember if it's in there. I get a little bit about when specials had documentary footage intermingled.

[B]

Yes. Jenny Slate.

[A]

Yes. And I didn't.

[B]

I thought that was fantastic.

[A]

My issue with it. And I will say, like, oh, I.

[B]

Can also talk about issues with it. Sure, sure.

[A]

I'm gonna tell you my issue with it.

[B]

I think it was perfect for Jenny's. But keep going.

[A]

And other specials did it. So if Jenny is watching, I'm not specifically on. And I also. My. My colleague at Vulture, Katherine Van Arendog, specifically wrote a piece about this. But there is something about the need to prove that what you're saying on stage is true, that I find antithetical to the art quality of stand up. I think the. The idea that if you look at a painting and be like, well, show me the reference image and let me know how close it is to the reference image. That. Which is I. An instinct some people have for painting, which I also don't like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think, oh, wow, we are in. So much as I see comedy as an art form, I want to see how your brain works and how your brain paints the picture in my head. And not just being like, see, I really captured their voice.

[B]

Okay, so have you listened to Valley Heat?

[A]

No.

[B]

It's the best. You have to write that down. Valley Heat podcast. It's my absolute favorite podcast. Not only that, it's a comedy podcast and he's kind of improvising. It's mostly one guy. There's some act outs. But I'm like, how do you make this into a show? And I'm like, it almost ruins it because the way it comes out, you have to imagine it so that maybe you know this. That's called a hot medium, meaning you're engaged with it. A book is a hot medium.

[A]

Got it, got it, got it, got it.

[B]

A cold medium is television. It just shows it to you. So as soon as you just like animate it or act it out, the fun of him explaining what that weird sound you just heard isn't fun anymore because you're seeing it.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's also. I mean, this is, I guess, fairly mid. But that is what is happening right now in terms of us being filmed while we're talking. Where it transforms.

[B]

Well, yeah.

[A]

Our conversation to what I think podcasts kind of felt a little bit more hot or Active in so much as I'm in this conversation, they're talking. But I am actively thinking we should.

[B]

Put in a green screen right there and just allow them.

[A]

And allow them to put themselves on it.

[B]

I know exactly what you're.

[A]

Now you watch it. You're. You're watching us have a conversation.

[B]

Or I think I'm not. How could I know? I surmise that a lot of people, People have this open like it's the fourth tab and it's just. And it's still audio.

[A]

I thought I recently met people who watch it.

[B]

They just watch it.

[A]

They watch it. I think they like. I think it's two things happen. One, instead of it, a tab they put on their TV screen. They walk around and they check in. They check in. Or someone sense someone does a funny thing. I want to see what it looked like when they did the funny thing. So they go back.

[B]

Well, you know what, I'm gonna. I feel like we've had this conversation before. Steve Martin's albums are so much better, in my opinion than the taped specials. And it's because you don't know what he did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you hear the sound of like his banjo hitting what?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he fell. Where? And it's so funny. That's actually in his book where it's like, why would you record physical comedy? And then his records did so well that some A and R guy or whatever, a music guy was like, I need more physical comedy records. Like because it was so popular. But it is more fun. It's because it' a hot medium.

[A]

Yeah. And I wonder if there are just some people who. Whose brains can't do that. So they don't like it. Right. I think it's like, easy.

[B]

There are some brains.

[A]

You were before you were a comedian listening to Steve Martin's record. You had the brain of a would be comedian.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So when there's noise, your brain's like, well, what if it's like this?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think there's probably certain people whose brains are not elastic in that way.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Who are like, what happened?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where can I look up what happened in that moment? And they want like a textbook where.

[B]

It'S like, yeah, but you're the wire that way too. Because one of the things I resonated with in the comedy book, a very hard to Google book, by the way.

[A]

Well, that's why there's a subtitle.

[B]

I know, but I. I'm not plugging that subtitle right now, am I? No, I'm just kidding. You have to write in comedy Book. Jesse Fox.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't just write comedy Book. Because then Amazon's just like, well, it's.

[A]

I have a Google alert for comedy book. And it is almost never my book. It's just sort of like.

[B]

It's very punk rock.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know how there are punk bands that call themselves like Naked Girls and stuff and it's so they can't be Google.

[A]

It was pretty quickly I was like, the book should be called Comedy Book and for a little bit of time was going to be called Comedy Book. A book about comedy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And which I thought was funny in a sort of similar, like kind of deadpan.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Way. And then.

[B]

Well, TJ had that record. The extended play lp.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or no, I'm sorry. Yeah. Ep. The extended play ep.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's whatever that sensibility of like a really dry just saying a thing is.

[B]

And then of the Concords.

[A]

Yeah. And I think people need to want to buy the book.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if anything, it actually is. And this is a. A somewhat problem with comedy, which is if people don't get the joke, they are almost off put by title.

[B]

Yeah. They're upset.

[A]

They're like, are you making fun of me?

[B]

No. You ever go to a rest? Absolutely. Jesse. And when you go to a rest, I always love talking to you, by the way, and welcome to the show. But you know when you go to a restaurant and they have something called like chicken and waffles and you're like, oh my God. And then you get it and it's like the chef's reimagining and it's like a little piece of a waffle and there's like a piece of chicken and you're like, fuck you. That's how people feel when they don't get a joke.

[A]

Yeah. Because I think that they. That era of food where it's like the dishes in quotes or something like that, people had a really negative reaction to it, partly because they do not think similar to comedy. Like food can be art enough to have such a thing. But also like right at the same time there was a sort of counter reaction to that, which is like extremely simply defined food, which is like, here's a list of ingredients. I think for the most part we've gone back to that. But.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. I do think when people want to be invited in, which is like, I think when it happens at a restaurant, they don't like being capped at arms.

[B]

It's true. And a lot of people. I remember again, I'm trying To think of. Not think of things. I'm trying to stoke the fire in a way that you'll want to engage. I'm explaining to you what a host is.

[A]

I'm trying to think of questions that you would answer.

[B]

He's actually, this is how I do it. These aren't questions you want to bait you sure. Into wanting to interrupt me. But when I was at the Boston Comedy Club and Demetri Martin would come by, which was such a big deal to me, a lot of the guys that went up at the Boston were more. And I think Bobby Kelly is amazing. I think he's hilarious. I'm just saying that was more. More of the. The fair.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then here comes Dimitri, and he is a chef's reimagining of chicken and waffles.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But if you are in the mood for a chef's reimagining of chicken and waffles, which is something you can look at the climate. You're like, we got a lot of guys just giving you chicken and waffles. Then Dimitri comes in. It gets really, really exciting.

[A]

I feel like that literally happened to me because I was going to the Commie Cellar pretty young. Like, I was a teenager going to the comm seller. And I remember it wasn't 21 up. I believe I had used a fake ID to go to the comedy seller. This is. This is one.

[B]

You can get a fake ID in New York.

[A]

To be fair, this was a very long time ago. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I think I can get them at the post office.

[A]

I have no idea.

[B]

Totally legal.

[A]

If ID technology has gotten better or worse to make it easier or harder, but also all technology, I guess, has gotten better. Better.

[B]

Well, you can get your ID on your phone now. And I have to think that's easier to fake if they're not QR coding it.

[A]

Yeah. If you can get on your phone, then yes. I feel like you. Then it must be very easy to fake, because then. It's Photoshop.

[B]

It's a Photoshop. I made a fake passport for my daughter for fun. This is a weird anecdote, but I just googled blank passport, background. Plenty of options.

[A]

Was it like the big one you print? I think that was in.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah, that. You put your head through it. Hilarious. But we made my daughter a fake passport just for fun. No federal crime here. It was my passport. We just put her picture on it because she wanted to play travel. And if that gets me in jail for being basically a bluey style dad. Come on. Get the out of Here, get the. So you started going when you were.

[A]

Oh, so I went when I was a teenager.

[B]

That's hosting.

[A]

There you go. Now that's.

[B]

Now that's really.

[A]

It's a hosting competition for. On your podcast.

[B]

Well, you have to let me win. It's like a weird Japanese custom. He's gonna try to out host you. You have to let him win.

[A]

We both give each other gifts and then whoever gifts is better.

[B]

I liked it.

[A]

It's a great.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh. So yeah. And I think. I don't remember how like say 17, 18, 19 ish. And because I watched Tough crowd and I like those guys. I really liked Greg Giraldo. I remember being like, well where does that happen? And they would say the comedy seller. And this was like all at a lull in where the comm seller was because it was like the. I just so distinctly remember that online you could print out a free mission.

[B]

That's what I used to pay for.

[A]

Drink. And you're like free. The I one. It's wild to think of the common seller needing people that badly. But also if you're ever. If you're watching this and young, this is like a very old looking website. The idea like Truly, it was.

[B]

It didn't have the lineups.

[A]

No.

[B]

It didn't have anything.

[A]

No. It was truly just like here is a thing you can print out.

[B]

When I started working again at the Boston, which was right around the corner from the Cellar.

[A]

I'm sorry I didn't come to see you then.

[B]

No, I wasn't there. I don't think you were 19. We're not that far off.

[A]

Well, how old were you when you started in New York?

[B]

25. 25.

[A]

So yeah, maybe you're maybe like five years older than us. So it might have been. Exactly.

[B]

So it was revolutionary. Ish. The comedy seller at that time had a chalkboard that they would write the names in the credits. And then my brilliant idea was with Dustin who booked it. I was like just. What I realize now is he might not have known who was gonna come by, but I would make these lists with the credits and their names and print it out on paper and bring it in and tack it up. That was our Internet. There's your Internet right there.

[A]

That is very similar. I feel like that that's adjacent to your phone book joke.

[B]

Oh yeah. We printed a portion of the. That's literally what it was.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Well I remember when I wrote that.

[A]

So I. But so I was seeing Tough crowd era comedians at. And you know, like Chris Rock dropped in all that stuff. But like couple years in, I already was. Even though I was not like a knew much about comedy as I know now, I was already kind of. Kind of get tired of the monotony of the sounds of comedians. How they would approach comedians. How as the. When you would hear like roasts to the audience and it's kind of the same thing they would say every time. And I. And I was so just. And this is nothing against Robert Kelly. I've had nice interactions with him since. But I just remember specifically I had glasses and brown hair and he called me Harry Potter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there was like more offensive things that people said to me.

[B]

This is what it is. It's a flooding of the market.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not that. That's not fine. It's like if. If there were like. I remember there were two. I don't know how to describe it. Tough looking black kids in the front and everybody. If they referenced hip hop, they would go. Which is. You're just not supposed to do it. It'd be like anybody here like hip hop?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And I'd do it to them. But then like two comics later, someone would be like hip hop. Who didn't even see the other guy. So in the same way there you are, Harry Potter or Harry Potter in the front. It's not that. It's not okay. It's that the market was flooded in the same way that there's too many places serving chicken and waffles. And now we need a reimagining.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The market dictates the need for Demetri Martin.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I do also people like you that felt unrepresented.

[A]

Yeah. And also I think, and this is maybe the first I started thinking about this, which is too much comedy or too many comedians gear their actions. Two people who see almost no comedy whatsoever.

[B]

Wow. That's really interesting.

[A]

So.

[B]

And that was very true. I think then.

[A]

Yes. Because they're there to. To their. To their defense. There were people who were not seeing comedy that often.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But now to still do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Does feel.

[B]

No, dude.

[A]

It's like the way the new thing I realized a genre of joke or way of opening specials which is explaining why they shot a special in the city. The like people ask me why did I shoot this special in Minneapolis. Yes. And I'm like, when you were thinking of coming out today and filming a special, you do not think probably 4,000 comedians have done that at this point now that there's so many specials on YouTube.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And yes, Most. There's a lot of people who will not know that. But there you have to know. Some people would. And don't you want to.

[B]

It's another pendulum swing is now. One of the ways we appreciate comedy as fans is its uniqueness. I don't think that was the case when we were both there. Me in my 20s. You and your 19s. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's why you could see I would be at the Cellar and two giant comedians, like, meaning physically giant comedians, both said, you guys are looking at me like, why is the bouncer on stage? They both said it because it was sort of like a. It almost felt like vaudeville or something. We were doing New York comedy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I love talking about Nate Bargazzi because we were. We felt very weird. And not because we were trying to be. We were just being unique to what we liked and stuff. But it was like a lot of, why is the bouncer on stage? And then Nate would be like, how come I have no satellite reception in space? The satellite's right there. And believe it or not, it would not do very well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I say that with full respect. We would not do well, both of us.

[A]

It's why I sort of push back any attempt to sort of limit the available vocabulary for what comedians can operate in. And not in the sort of, like, speech way, which is a different way, but, like, literally the amount of directions a comedian can go in. Because otherwise it will be inevitable that people will essentially steal jokes by accident. Because you're only giving so many accepted responses.

[B]

Oh, you're right. Because. Sorry, just to your setup. People ask me why I film my thing in Minneapolis. Well, I mean, there's only five ways to go.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So we're gonna.

[A]

And even if you, like, use different words, the thing the audience is taking is the same. It's the same joke. And so that's the concern.

[B]

So then, by the way, that's. Or whatever. Comedy. There was a flood of. Or whatever. It's like, so if I took you back to my apartment and cut off your head and put it on my own head. Like a mask or whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like a hyper specific followed by. Or whatever. There was a great. Or whatever. Flood of the late 2010s.

[A]

Yeah. So I do think one, I guess you hear, you know, like, it's possible people internalize especially speech patterns in way that even when they're trying very hard not to steal jokes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's hard to, like, you hang up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you. If you. 20 people hanging out with each other. And they all are comedians. You and your friends kind of talk.

[B]

The same regardless, which is a big problem. I felt in New York, a lot of hotels going around now. There are a lot of Louis. There was a Louis Gap. People were like, I'll do that.

[A]

Well, I think a lot of people are like, well, Louie's not gonna be around.

[B]

No, that's true.

[A]

That voice is kind of up for grabs.

[B]

It's exactly the same as a bazaar in, like the 17th century. And some guy who sold Chestnut got arrested. Now we're gonna sell chestnuts. I mean, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just good business to be like, I can be like, fucking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love. I'm not making fun of that delivery.

[A]

So it is like. So I would go. And then it made me kind of not as interested in comedy for a while. I do remember Dimitri was a sort of exception for when I was thinking about the comedians I like. And then sort of what got me back into the comedy was when I was brought to Comedy Death Ray when I lived in la. However many years ago, Drew Welborne, our mutual friend, took me there. And the first show I saw, the first comedian up, was Hannibal. And this was 2009.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I just was like, it like rewired my brain. I was like, oh, there is new directions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's sort of what I've been chasing. Sort of. Every time I look at a new comedian, I'm hoping for a new direction.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so the. I will say what I fear is happening, not unlike with the comedy seller, is because so many young comedians are coming up with the intent of posting online, the algorithms are, again, my face re making a smaller spectrum of available speech in the same available avenues of the type of comedian.

[B]

Way more dangerously, though, they're offering cash and prizes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So fame and money. Literally money, if you can fit into this category. Whereas, like, it's funny that Dimitri's style does fit social media very well. But, like, you are going to see people who aren't Eddie Izzards, for example, doesn't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As well. Not as easily. So you're going to see way more people going fast and loud who might not be fast or loud. Yeah, that's very.

[A]

And they didn't allow themselves the opportunity to find what they're voice would hypothetically be, because two years in, one year in, one day in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're like, they're filming it. I'll post it. And then you're. You're on the hook for a style.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A day into being a comedian.

[B]

So when I, me and my friend Dan Shacky saw Demetri Martin at the Boston Comedy Club the next day, I didn't do it. But him and another comedian friend of ours both went up and did one liners. And it wasn't embarrassing or weird. It was like, oh, I'll. What. What does a one liner for me sound like? And Dan kind of kept some of that style. Not. Not exactly one liners, but he. I saw how. I think Dimitri rubbed off on him. But if he had been posting before.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I. If I was posting my early stuff. And I know people already know this, but it's like, they would have been like, oh, he's Brian. He's Brian Reed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's Brian Reagan.

[A]

And then what if they're like, he's Brian Regan. We love that. We want more Brian Rein. And then you have 50,000 people who like that. You're Brian Regan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And also like, well, I bet I can get 200,000 people if I get better at being Brian Regan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you. And then you don't go like, what if I instead spend a year not trying to be Brian Regan at all? Because why would you do that? Yeah, because it's easy when you're reached a level of success as a comedian to be like, I'm doing this for my art. And because you already have certain amount of security. But it's. I. I don't blame any individual comedian because they are this. They have the same motivation that motivated every comedian, which is like, I really want to get on stage. I really want people to listen. They want people to laugh at what I'm doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Also, like, I. Once I get my own audience right, then I could finally. Then I have so much more freedom to do whatever I want. The problem is, if an audience has a certain sort of expectation you're doing, then you have to decide, do I want.

[B]

You're right. It's the. It's Extra Season 2.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You made a. You made a big saying. Is he laughing and laugh? And I'm not trying to drag anybody. And that just goes for this whole conversation. But when I first saw Aziz, I loved. I thought he was incredible. Then I swear, like, two weeks later, I saw Aziz and he had clearly just been watching a lot of Mitch Hedberg and was looking for the recipe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm not saying he was stealing him. I'm not saying he was ripping him off. I'm saying as a really big comedy person, I was like, what. What is happening? He was changing the recipe.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's like, what if I turn up my Hedberg influence a little bit more? And if he had posted that and it worked, you know, like, he'd be stuck in there.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it's just partly because comedy is a unique thing, which is like, other. Like a painter would be like, oh, they start painting and like, oh, there's something unique here. But then they're like, I need to get to another threshold of execution of whatever. And then they're like, well, let me mimic this type of painting partly just to get into my bones. Like, the idea of, like, there's comedy writers who, when they were kids, transcribed TV shows to partly just know what it felt like to type certain things.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And that's not on public. So then by the time you do see the paintings, it feels maybe more individual, original, because they have internalized it inside.

[B]

Llewyn Davis, have you seen.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Remember, when he goes, you never release your early stuff. Ruins the mystique. I'm always like, that idea is gone.

[A]

Well, Mystique is such a silly.

[B]

It is a silly.

[A]

It's so silly.

[B]

When the Bob Dylan movie came out, I think one of the reasons we're so drawn to it now is that's just when you're building your character with. You have 50 points and you have five categories. No one puts any in Mystique, except. Let's play the mystique 1. Bo Burnham has Mystique, Dimitri has some Mystique, Aziz has some Mystique. Almost everybody else is just like.

[A]

But the risk is, what if you're wrong? Right. What if you have Mystique and it's like a. And you. So you go into these rooms and, like, this person has Mystique. You're like, there's a lot of people, and you can dazzle people. And then, like, eventually people can see that you're not that interesting or you're not that talented.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, it's easy to be. Like, Bo Burnham had a lot of mystique and also the ability to do a lot of things right. It's. The hard thing is you don't know if you're going to Mystique.

[B]

Well, that's what makes Mystique so interesting, is you're betting a future that you don't know. And even Bob Dylan was for sure, very nervous when he was starting and playing new songs. And there are also people that will tell you that he. I think it doesn't matter who it is. There's someone who Famously was like, that's a character. He built a character and everybody did to a certain extent. Beau has to be a character or leaning into like. Yeah, that's what you do with Mystique.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I do think. I mean, that is the. How do I. It's a. It says. I'm trying to think of how to phrase this because there's a very heady idea of like the idea of performance. Right. So you.

[B]

The.

[A]

Versus the idea of authenticity. Authenticity is not that old of a concept. It is like somewhat. Our conception of authenticity is like, rooted in like baby boomer, post World War II, like self reflection. And this idea of like, I'm going to be authentic for my own personal ends. This sort of like, not like we are going to like, live together in a sort of more communal end, but like, I want to make myself pure. And that is like a pursuit of authenticity. And as a result, sort of authenticity had been fetishized for decades. Even though there are people. I think. I argue, at least in the book, Bo Burnham is one of these people, though I have not fully spoke to him in a while since. But that would be like. Authenticity is a fraud. The idea that you can be authentic. Yeah. Like, every single person gets up and puts on a shirt. You can't not decide to put on a. Like the idea that we think of people who, like, wear wild clothes as a person who's like, made a different decision. The person who didn't decide to wear wild clothes. And it's a similar thing.

[B]

It's a really, really funny, interesting point.

[A]

So with.

[B]

They both put on clothes.

[A]

They both put on clothes. The person who decided to. To look like. They didn't decide.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Decide. That is a performance as well of what they want to communicate. And it's very transparent on stage.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Especially coming out of the Louis era of like, I'm just a guy up here. I'm wearing like, my T shirt doesn't fit. My jeans are bet. And it's like. You set a date to film this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You. Someone asked you. There's budget for wardrobe.

[A]

You're wet. If you're wearing makeup, there's budget for whatever new shirt or. And you.

[B]

That's actually a really funny point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I guarantee you he's wearing makeup. And this isn't.

[A]

Yeah. 100%.

[B]

I'm gonna stop saying. I'm not dragging them. First of all, I'm too old to say dragging. Second of all, who fucking cares? I'm just saying as a guy, look, I'm wearing this Cloud pattern sweatshirt. I'm gonna be real with you, Jess. It has stains on it. I like that. I like what it says about me as a person. I like that it says that I don't care.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm like, oh, you care about stuff like that? Interesting. It's another way to get status, sex, resources, belonging. It's all the same thing.

[A]

I mean, like, for example, I. Because this was video, I wore this clothes.

[B]

Yeah. This is perfect.

[A]

Yeah. But if this was not video, I still would have been dressed up to what I wanted to convey to you.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

And I think some would argue that it's more honest to acknowledge that I dressed up for this.

[B]

The only honesty is to admit that dishonesty.

[A]

And so the only honesty in sort of comedy performance is to acknowledge you're performing either literally being, like, a thing that you'll often do, which it'll be like acknowledging. Like, have you heard this setup before? Your last specialty of the joke of, like, every comedian gets to have a joke about, this is mine. This is mine. And that. That one. I remember when I first started seeing comedians do that. I remember when Hannibal did it for the first time and I saw it. I remember when you started doing it. It was so exciting to me. And I couldn't believe put into words then what it was.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it's the same thing of, like. I mean, and then, like, John Kate really figured out to amplify it and Bo as well, which was like, it is me. It is actually more honest for me to start singing a song than to me to pretend I'm just talking up here.

[B]

Well, that's also Steve Martin, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like, hey, we're having fun now. Like, when does the show start? That's all. Yeah, Steve Martin. Which is really funny that it's considered. And I agree with you, 2004. That's like, when we started doing it. I also want to put this to you just selfishly, because it's in my life, but I'm also interested in what you have to say about it. So I. Again, I just taped.

[A]

Thank you for saying my outfit is perfect.

[B]

It's great. It's great. It's perfect. Well done. Look, we could even click that one back and be like, the conglomerate of your experiences and your thoughts and your patterns of thinking and. And the ones that you favor over others. Basically, what we would call personality. Ego is absolute nonsense. And anybody that's had any sort of spiritual reckoning or even a mushroom trip knows that it's this like heavy suitcase we carry around and children can see it. It's one of my earliest memories is going, like, why are they talking like this?

[A]

Well, why are they talking? I do think we believe words like. Like, I do think there's these sort of, like, cliche of, like a weed idea of like, how do I know the blue you see is the blue I see?

[B]

I know. But all the most interesting things, but.

[A]

Like, truly, like, it's. It's. But also, like, how do I know when I say the word blue, even what you hear? The same thing when I say the word blue. The same thing, like, what the word funny is like. I do think we assume language. If we speak the same language. You're saying the same thing to each other. But really it's just like. Like, I'm as best as possible trying to articulate a sort of abstract thing to a person who also is receiving it and having it kind of filter back abstractly in their brain. But, like, we don't actually have the same understanding for anything.

[B]

It's absolutely nonsense.

[A]

And that's why comedy is the interesting art form, because you're trying to get as close as possible to actually a sort of universal communication of ideas through enough testing through audiences because of the involuntary response. Yeah.

[B]

If laughter was something that you could. You can. But I mean, like, real laughter. That's what's so fun, is like. Well, I've said this before, but art is going, When I look at that barn, this is what I see. So you paint it. That's what I see. And like. Yeah, I agree. That's what that is. You did it over there. And comedy is great because, like, we're not going for tears or, like, silence. We're going for, like, an involuntary. I understood you. So. Has a real appeal to children that felt misunderstood.

[A]

Yeah. I also think it. The way I think of it is like, you don't hear it as much anymore. But they're like, the comedians hold a mirror up to society or whatever. Yeah. And.

[B]

And I won an award for largest mirror. It's a Tracy Morgan joke.

[A]

That's really funny.

[B]

I want to hold a mirror up to society and win an award for largest mirror. I mean, that's. It came out well today. My Morgan was on today.

[A]

But I do think the way I see it is that like. Like, essentially the comedian has a observation or whatever, and it's essentially like they have a piece of steel, and then through audience interaction, it polishes.

[B]

Yeah, that's true.

[A]

And then it becomes a reflection of the audience because of the audience's response.

[B]

Yeah, you're doing it together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, that is the hope. That's exactly right. This episode is brought to us by our friends at Ritual Multivitamins. It's the only multivitamin that I've ever taken in my life that I can absolutely tell the difference. I take my ritual. I feel ready to start my day. I take their Essential for men and I take their synbiotic plus, which is a pre, post and probiotic all in one. They're minty capsules. They're delayed release, which means they don't upset your stomach. So if you're fasting or taking them first thing in the morning, got that zinc in you. Sometimes zinc will upset your stomach, make you yak. Not ritual because it breaks down your lower intestine, which is where these vitamins can actually be absorbed. So many people are like, I take a multivitamin, but I know I just pee it out. Ritual is different. Delayed release, minty essence. And everything in these things is traceable. So if you want to know where these nutrients are coming from, ritual is incredibly transparent and makes everything, everything, everything traceable. And guys, we need this in our life more than ever. According to the cdc, fewer men than women meet the minimum daily intake recommendation for fruit and veggies. And men are more likely to overvalue exercise and undervalue nutrition. Ritual is here to help all of that. And I can say for me personally, as a mostly vegan, I would go and get my blood work done and my doctor would be like, you're deficient. Here, here, here, here. Point out all these gaps in my diet since starting ritual and I haven't missed a day in years. I don't have that problem. It has really helped fill those gaps. And those gaps a lot of people have, not just mostly vegans talking about omega 3 DHA to support healthy heart and brain. We're Talking about vitamin D3 to support normal muscle and immune function. All of these things get into you and get into you and make you feel fantastic. So Essential for men is a quality multivitamin from a company you can actually trust. Get 25 off your first month for a limited time at ritual.com weird. That's ritual.com weird for 25 off your your first month. Try it out ritual.com weird. We're also brought to us by our friends at Shakti Mats. I am a hard person to buy a gift for and I was given a Shakti mat as a gift and it's basically a bed of nails. You roll it out Comes with you get a pillow too that's covered in thousands of spiky pokies. Why would you take your shirt off and lie down on something like that? Well, because it's basically like a massage on command. Just like sauna, Just like cold exposure, exposure, acupressure, Getting these pokies on your back, getting that circulation boosting, releasing, boosted, releasing tension, melting away stress. It is on demand relief from stress and tension. And it couldn't be easier. I love massage, maybe even more than the next person. But the problem is gotta make an appointment. Cost a ton of money. Then you covered in oil, now you got a shower. It's a whole to do. This thing is relaxation on demand. Whenever you need it, unfurl it. It's a fun thing to say. Unfurl it, lay on it. The first time I used my Shakti mat, of course at first it's pokey and invigorating, but then I almost fell asleep. In fact I did fall asleep the first time I used it. Now I almost fall asleep every single time I use it. It's like deep tissue work. I've tried other kinds of acupressure mats, but there's no comparison. Shakti is the sharpest on the market, which is what you want because those are the only ones that work. And it's handmade in India by people who are paired, paid fairly and with the highest integrity quality materials. I can vouch for that. Deeper sleep, stress relief, muscle relaxation, better circulation, mental clarity and just a general sense of well being whenever you need it. And it makes a great gift. Shakti mats are my secret weapon. For reliable serenity and relief. Go to Shakti matt S-H-A-K-T-I-M-A-T.com use promo code weird30 and you will get 30% off any Shakti mat. That's shaktimat.com use promo code weird30and tell them we sent you. And that actually takes me into what I was about to say. But it ties into everything we're talking about. I really. I couldn't agree with you more that like saying every comedian has their prostate exam joke, this is mine to me is maybe the most important part of that joke. But I just. And this isn't. I love Neil Brennan to death. He's one of my closest friends. And like I said, I show my special to him and Birbigli and Santino and some other people. But those, those are like the first three. And Neil gave me notes. And I would say this, if he Was right here. He's like, anytime. Ladies and gentlemen, Neil Brennan. But he. Anytime I'm calling out that I'm doing stand up or interpreting it, he's like, cut it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he. He. But then you watch Neil. He is giving me notes to make my special more like a Neil special. Neil is very, like, surgical, and it's. And it's efficient and it's brilliant. But, like, I'll give you an example. I have a joke on my next special about people that make you take your shoes off before you come in the house. And it's this big rant about how you can't ward off death. Your policy is stupid. It's. It's me yelling about it. Of course, I can see both sides. But I'm just saying I yell about.

[A]

It because you want to keep your shoes on.

[B]

I want to keep my shoes because I get cold feet. I leave parties often because I'm like, I can't. It's like I'm a loft apartment. That's not in the joke. It's very hard to keep me warm. So if you're gonna make me do what the Japanese do, give me slippers. Like, that's ridiculous. Yeah, we're doing one part of the tradition, and I should have included that, to be honest. But, like, in Japan, they have slippers for their guests because it's cold. So anyway, we're just making people cold and leave sock prints on the linoleum of their kitchens. So anyway, the joke ends where I go. Here's my favorite part of that joke. I know by the sound of things, most of you are shoes off households. And I go, but you laughed anyway. They go, we need more of that subtlety. You put your opinion to one side, and you vacationed in my perspective, and you were like, ha, ha, ha. Take him off.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And it's the biggest laugh of the thing. And he's like, cut it. It's like, what are you doing? The joke's over. And I'm like, I'm doing what I consider to be comedy. That's, like, the only thing I can say, I think.

[A]

I mean, he's trying to.

[B]

I think he's an older brother trying to get me to not be bullied on the playground.

[A]

Yeah. And he's worried about you being an individual. He. I think he. For a variety of reasons. I don't know if I'd say that if he's here because we're not friends.

[B]

But I think you're in bounds. I'll let you know if I Don't think anything's.

[A]

I think he has the instinct of a person of, like, if you do write the joke well enough, funny is funny. And every single person will know it's funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you should have no part of the joke. That is not 100% overlap. Now. I think he is, because of what happened to his career, which is like making comedy then an extremely young age had a thing that was seemingly universally loved. Jerry Seinfeld, I think, is the same way, which is like, he believed, like, funny is funny. You have to make things that are exactly what every single person will laugh at.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Coincidentally then has the biggest show that has ever happened, the most possible. People laughed at his thing. So he's like, see, I'm just correct.

[B]

So Neil is Chappelle show and Seinfeld is.

[A]

Yeah. So then he's like, that is possible. But I do think that is a complete fallacy.

[B]

Got reinforced, though, in both of them.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because the other person who has this perspective is Jerry Seinfeld.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He would say, why. Why are you talking about the show? It's over.

[A]

Because.

[B]

And I'm like, because people like me love when comedians go, I know a show is happening. I know I have a perspective. I know you have a perspective, and I know you know that. I know that you have a perspective. And also, it's beautiful to see each other.

[A]

Yeah. You're giving the audience yourself, your commute. Like, it is it. It truly would be like if you did. I. I will often just compare things to painting and be like, you know, if you're doing a portrait of someone, and then, like, in the back, like, if you look at the Mona Lisa, I guess in the background, there's all that stuff. It's like, well, why is that there? You should. That's not a. That's not part of Mona Lisa. It's like, well, that's the part that makes it a reflection of how I see the world.

[B]

You know what I. I love that. What I would. The metaphor I would use is you're listening to the White Stripes and you can hear his hand. You know that sound it makes when it goes, like, it reaches up to the note? Why is that there? It's not the note. It's because that's what Jack White sounds like when he's playing a guitar. Why can you hear. I always go to Eminem. I don't have cool taste in music, but why can you hear Eminem? There's those inhales. Cut those out. I'm like, no, it's amazing. That he's inhaling like that and then, you know, rapping like that.

[A]

I mean, especially now, like, they will be proven wrong. When AI can write Jerry Seinfeld's act.

[B]

We'Re back to AI or Jason.

[A]

That idea of Jerry Sims, I do think, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you think I saw more recently? And there are parts where it cheats a little bit, but, like, it's a thing that I, I, I, AI, AI, AI, AI. It. It's a thing that I think older comedians and a lot of people in general comedians, like, I, I think back to. So Gerard Carmichaels on wtf. It was. It's a very contentious episode because I.

[B]

Think I listened to it.

[A]

It was around Nathaniel and, like. And we don't need to go, why.

[B]

Did I listen to it? Because he's kind of, like, full of himself or something.

[A]

Yeah. So Jarrod's being Jarrod and Mar's being Mark.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't even have to say full of himself. You can just be like. It's just sort of like Gerard has hyper confidence.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And vision. Yes, yes.

[A]

And.

[B]

And Mark is like, what the fuck is.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. He's like. He thinks you're bullshit. And. But there's a thing that he said in it that I think is instructive that Mark.

[B]

Mark says this.

[A]

No, Jirad says it. Which is essentially like, you know, Ruth angel has all those parts that are not laughter, but, like, things are happening. And he's essentially, I'm doing it so comedy doesn't die. And I think his point is comedians think they're competing against other comedians to write the best jokes. But, like, we are. Comedians are no longer the only source, main source, primary source of getting laughs anymore. Hannah Gatsby said the same thing. Like, people go on their phones for entertainment or mirth, broadly defined. And, like, they will laugh at things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And comedians are competing against dog falling down. That's the, that's the competition for laughter. If the comedian job was only to produce laughter, then you're going to lose to all the dogs in the world. Right. There's more dogs than there are comedians. As a result, they. Yeah. However, what dogs can't do, because, no offense, the dogs, is they can't be artists and go on stage and communicate.

[B]

Their inner lives and do, like, long pauses and allow for attention and respond in real time to somebody giving you advice on your boyfriend or whatever it might be. I couldn't agree more. I often say, like, so Steven Wright did this podcast. Did you listen to it as a fan? A Comedy fan. You would like it yet I will listen to the intro. I, I always feel weird saying that.

[A]

I, I, I actually, because I was going to be on it, I was like, I do not want to listen to it and then constantly be referencing other episodes.

[B]

I, I, I'm the same way. You don't want to, you want it to be an exciting like, oh, that voice, not that's what I thought you were going to go. I also heard what you said.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When Stephen Wright did it, I said in the intro. And I've referenced it many times. I'm proud of it. I'm like a, I would not make this episode. And if you listen to it, it's, it's what we're talking about. But it's also all these moments where he's like, the episode ends where he goes, can this be over? And I'm like, I was blown away. He ended the episode by saying, can this be over? AI just wouldn't do that. Or if they did, they wouldn't lay it perfectly at the right moment. When Steven Wright would say, can this be. It's just absolute perfection. And my friend edits podcasts and I ask him what he does. And a lot of AI programs do this. Cut out all the ahs and the ums and the pauses. And I'm like, I'm like, all I want is the ahs and the ums and the pauses. All I want is Mark's talking to Gerard and he's like, like, I want.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And if you clean it up, then yes, AI can do it now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not will be able to do it. They can do that now.

[A]

Yeah. And it's, and not only and it's happening from both ends, which is like, so AI, generative AI can generate a lot of these things that we think of as sort of like joker jokey or joke jokes, one liner jokes. AI in terms of algorithm, AI is that it powers TikTok's algorithm and Instagram's algorithm and YouTube's algorithm. It's coming at us from the other end, which is trying to limit the things that they're showing us in terms of how di how many different types of things they're trying to show us. They're not trying to show us a wide spectrum of comedians what you already liked, they want what you other already like and kind of are training people to post the things that sort of work for them. So then it's just creating a box for consumption. Because their goal is not entertainment. Their goal is retention. The goal is Essentially to turn all entertainment into a slot machine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So essentially that you're like, I don't like it, but what if the next one's good? That is the feeling, not. Not contentment or comfort or whatever.

[B]

And that's the concern too. They say the pleasure of porn is actually looking for the perfect thing to turn you on. That's the anxiety reduction. That's all you're thinking about. So it's the same.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Laughing. You're just like, what if. Because it did happen that one time he saw the funniest thing you've ever seen. Could be the next one. Could be the next one.

[A]

And then. So as a result, we are, you know, this is. This is I. When I want to bum people out, this is the sort of sentence I say, so get ready.

[B]

I'm ready to be bummed.

[A]

So this is when people worry about dystopian AI. The. The dystopia of what AI will create. It's that they'll murder all of us, which is possible, but, like, probably not fully likely. Likely. But there is a different dystopia that is also much more likely. It's just much more boring. And it's essentially that AI will get to the point that people use it to write their emails, and then people then use AI to read that email and reply to it and. And reply and just recap what happened to them. So then, as a result, AI is living a mundane life and we're doing nothing.

[B]

We're getting updates. We're.

[A]

We're reading recaps of our life, quote, unquote.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And that is the thing that essentially is going to be happening with art, which is essentially AI will create a feed for AI to consume and then tell you all the things that it did.

[B]

Yes. And you've been removed from that banality of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So being alive.

[A]

So both truly like the self that is the artist is being removed and the self that is the art consumer is being removed.

[B]

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I. I've never really thought of it.

[A]

Fun. It's just truly just like, I don't know what we do with the time.

[B]

You know, I'm reminded this is such a Pete Holmes things to say. So the AI will be able to predict this. But it's like, I didn't come to learn from my teacher. I came to watch him tie his shoes. I'm sure you've heard that. Like the Zen master. And that is. That came to mind because it's like it's. It's not. I thought about this in the traffic. In the traffic. I was in the traffic today on the 405. That's what I was trying to say in Traffic on the 405. And I really got started to get caught up in, like, I gotta get my daughter to ferry camp. I gotta just be done. I gotta get there. And then a million times a day, I have to remind myself like, no, this is your life. And we've really become. You know, Jay Leno had an old, old joke where it was like, the microwave came out. And it's like, it can get your dinner hot in 90 seconds. That's the ad. He's like, who the hell is coming home? Like, I've been home for 90 seconds. Where the hell is dinner? And then there's another point I make when these types of things come up. It's like all of these things that save time. Like, I have a thing that flosses, takes 12 seconds. What do you do with that extra 12 seconds? Like, at the end of the day, it is your master tying his shoes, being able to fully do anything. And I actually, this is my optimism, because my belief system is that this whole thing is a benevolent booby trap on ourselves to play or dance or learn or whatever you want to say. So I think AI is coming in the same way that Postmates and Netflix and the Internet and everything before it is to show you that your happiness does not lie in the meeting of your needs. So when we get the Ray bands that are the Apple Vision pro, so it's comfortable and easy. And my prediction, I make this all the time is time. It's not going to be watching people making anything. That's going to be absurd. It's going to be tailored 100% to your interest. And I'll show you sex when you're feeling. If you start to lose interest. Sex. Oh, you've had too much sex. Civil War history. If you had too much that recipes, it'll dial you in perfectly and hooked up to you neurologically. And then we'll have all of our entertainment and our food and our stimulation and all of these needs met. And it'll. And it won't work, because that actually doesn't work. It's White Lotus.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sam Rockwell going, I had sex with everything. And then I wanted to be had sex with and I wanted to pretend I was an Asian. You know that scene.

[A]

I have not caught up to it.

[B]

I'm sorry. You're in for a treat.

[A]

I know the scene exists. I know two scenes exist that are on the Horizon.

[B]

It's not as. I couldn't spoil it for you.

[A]

It's fine. It's really. There's another scene that is more spoiled that has been spoiled to me.

[B]

But like, what is that?

[A]

Oh, the incest, whatever it is.

[B]

Yeah, I knew. But anyway. But he then turns to Buddhism because he realizes that the only way off the hedonic treadmill is to get off the hedonic treadmill. And I would say to get curious about your nature, but I actually think AI might accelerate that because you'll be able to live a lifetime of dissatisfaction in a month.

[A]

I re. That it is interesting. There's a term for that. I think it's called something accelerates or whatever. It's the same thing. Like a comparable is people who are really left wing, who really want. Want Donald Trump to succeed because then people will realize the error of their ways or whatever.

[B]

Oh, they want him to win.

[A]

Yeah, they wanted him to win because then once he wins, people really like, oh, all of what we banked in was wrong. We could have actually. We should re.

[B]

That's actually brilliant. I've been thinking a lot about that.

[A]

We should rise up, but we won't rise up until we have an instigator like a Donald Trump. This is sort of the argument for that.

[B]

Well, if he, If Donald Trump had lost, then that that flame would still exist and you would want the next guy that's like that to win. But if he wins and then it doesn't work.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And people are getting by tariffs or whatever it might be or, or people's wives. There are Trump supporters whose wives are deported and all this sort of stuff. And that's. The theory is like, like good. We need to see that these things have consequences or whatever.

[A]

It just, it's been a long fever in both directions, both the Donald Trump part of the analogy and social media, Internet, whatever that you're. It is harder and harder for me to believe the fever will break because I am concerned that the people trying to instead fill that time with advertisement and things for us to buy and whatever are smarter than us pontificating about, like how actually it's. We'll find a new sort of spirituality and not smarter in the. Like. There's lots of different intelligences. They just have the intelligence that makes it really easy to sort of take over the world.

[B]

Yes. I'm so with you. I'm. I'm making it.

[A]

But I hope you're right. I'm. I'm. I will now think about yours when I'm trying To go to sleep at night.

[B]

No, I, I, I think we're saying very similar things. There's the. I always think of Homer and all the donuts in the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The joke is Homer wants all the donuts in the world. But when it breaks you, when you realize that, like take something like pornography, you can, you can see anything and pretty convincingly simulate that it's happening to you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Once we're having sex with sex robots, I think we'll realize that that sex was never about ejaculating. It might take you a while.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the thing about a sex robot is you can do it as many times as you want. I think that might speed up the fact that you go, oh, it was about the eye contact or it was about the cuddle afterwards, or it was about losing your erection and having someone forgive you. Or it was about whatever. It wasn't about orgasm. We're an orgasm culture.

[A]

I think that's right. Yeah.

[B]

We want the food orgasm, we want the sex orgasm, we want the entertainment orgasm. We want everything. And once you realize that sex actually was laughing that your foot got caught in the top sheet, you'll come back.

[A]

I got a lot tell me. So one you've now twice actually. I don't know or on purpose alluded to famous David Foster wall. David Foster Wallace essays.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So one is. I can't remember the name of it, but it's about you need to appreciate sitting in traffic because like, like it's what is water. Yeah, yeah. And the other one is he has a long essay about porn and he, I believe it goes to the AVN Awards or something. And he talks about once there's AI porn or that is when eventually we could.

[B]

You'll have something meeting your needs that doesn't care about you.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But so I those are both in there, so I'm not surprised.

[A]

One what you're saying also dovetail how I think about the jokes and comedy. And there's an idea that is one of my least popular ideas, which is this idea. I call it post comedy, but it's essentially comedy that doesn't sort of only adhere to. That is not focused on laughter necessarily. And but like, and but does not mean there's no laughter. It just sort of is like the goal is not the sort of machine. Like we do this and then you laugh. We do this and you laugh. It is essentially like in the space between the setup and the punch line or essentially the tension and release. You can do a lot of things and it's Is it possible that with the greater length of time before the release, the impact of the joke could be greater? Either you laugh more or you get more out of it. You think about it more, it lasts with you longer. Right. And people are like, no, comedy is jokes and laughing. What are you talking about?

[B]

But I do think it can be like lovemaking.

[A]

Yeah. It could be like truly, it's like the build up to it, which is like what will make it last. And it's not like that's the only way of doing it, but I just want to extend the option. The other thing, the thing that is the concern. Well, that's Norm McDonald about the infinite donuts thing is, the thing that I thought about is I think you might even. I got this from you like 15 years ago, but maybe not. We'll see. Which is like, the reason you appreciate chocolate cake is that you know that you will only have a hundred.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Before you die.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Or everything.

[B]

Literally all death informs kids cake. Yes.

[A]

Death informs all Joy is the hypothetically, that is the potential that it is limited. However, that is not how people want to think of that. They. They want to think I actually can have infinite cakes because I'm in control of my life.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So for us, for the fever to break, I do think the sort of even larger existential thing is that people have to accept that they die, which is very much.

[B]

No, you're right.

[A]

The AI. The AI, Big brains, what they are like. It's not uncommon for people who are very interested AI to be. Also believe in the potential of immortality, like the singularity. That weird guy who, like the, you know, that guy who always has a shirt off who like, does all these things to look younger.

[B]

Bert Kreischer.

[A]

Yeah, he's the Bert Kreischer of Silicon Valley.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I don't know. I actually intentionally never learned this person's name. But he essentially is like. It's because I try not to learn that much about him. I don't know if it's true. Like, he consumes maybe blood of young people, but essentially just does a lot of things to age, to reverse the trend of aging. It's not Peter Attia, Peter Thiel Atiya? No, I don't know. I don't know his name. And hopefully I'll never know his name. It might be Peter, but he also is trying to essentially reverse the effects of aging so that we get to the point where we prevent death. Right. And well, so far they're still alive. And I'm still alive. So I don't know who's winning this race but I do think that's what they're. That's what they're after.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I do think and, and I do then they're the people have funded the social media companies to and advertising. You know it's like watching can have like infinite Big Macs. Like each Big Mac is special but actually what's best about it is that you have. Can get Big Macs right now and everything's on your fingertips. But like eventually people have to be like especially if you're eating all those Big Macs that like you will die and you actually might appreciate it more. But I do think they've gotten very good at training us to consume. Sorry.

[B]

The. The health nuts are telling the. The social. They're funding the social media companies to sell Big Macs. I lost you.

[A]

Sorry. Yeah, see now, now I feel too conspiratorial. So let me see if I can try to do this again. Essentially these are the, these I wouldn't call them health nuts. They're sort of people who believe in the potential of immortality nuts. One guy is a health nut. One is. It's more about sort of digital immortality. But they, they think that they're at war with death. I think is how I put it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I think the denial death that they're doing which is very active like I imagine going to beat death by either eating all these vitamins or by uploading my brain to a computer. It's a similar mindset but a sort of the converse mindset if you're following of a person consuming as if there's no. As if there is all tomorrows essentially to live a life of consumption and not appreciation of the things that you're consuming but just to be in a pattern of consumption.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They are similar perspectives on. There is. We don't need to consider an end.

[B]

Yes, that's right.

[A]

Okay. Does that make worse.

[B]

Yeah, I understand, I understand. No, you're absolutely right. We did a monologue about smoking is the ultimate. You can't tell me what to do. But really what that means on a deeper level is like it's giving the middle finger to death and so is ice cream. And I notice my own motivations when I'm like should I get dessert? Let's consider. And one of them really feels like a fear based. It's not just that but it's sort of in the mix and there's something distinctly maybe even American about being like yes I will. Because I'm not, not gonna die. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's freaky deaky.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I'm not like immune to. I mean, like, I actively think it like before, if I have a flight, I'm like, well, if they have a flight the next day, I'm like, well, I should eat a good dinner. Because if I die on this plane.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then I. My last thought would be like. And the last thing I ate was that.

[B]

That's in my new special, I'm dying. And I go, I can't have my last meal be something. Yeah. We're also recording ourselves that digital immortality. I have to say. Hot take. The idea that you could upload your. The contents of your brain into a computer and that you would be in there is like, can you imagine the disappointment? Now you're dead. But we have a computer program that's like, no, I'm right here. Yeah, but it's not you.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So I mean, that is.

[A]

And then what is you? I mean, like, well, it could happen without even us having to act. Either of us having to actively done it because we put enough stuff out there.

[B]

There are. But the idea, like, I. I don't think it's that spiritual. Obviously, I look at it from a spiritual lens. Yeah, but you are not a thought. You are not your thoughts. You are the witnessing consciousness of those thoughts. But to think like, no, if I could go like, if there's something that says, hi, I'm Pete, I was born in Boston, then that would be me is like, is literally a fundamental misunderstanding of what you are. Cause you've been there the whole time and the thoughts have done nothing but change. And your body has changed and your body is another object that the consciousness observes. It's really goof troop. And my concern on that working is zero.

[A]

Working in what way?

[B]

That I would be convincingly inside of a computer and being like, no, this is me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That doesn't mean we can't make a computer that is very insistent that it is me and that it is having the same experience and that it worked. But I'm gonna say, all right. And I have a Nintendo game that makes it seem like we're playing three on three ice hockey.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe this is too dark of a thought, but that, that aspect of it, which is that not only could they at some point do this, make a computer that thinks it's you, but it's. You can make a computer that thinks you and as a result has a similar line of thinking as you. But As a result, because it does not have a body, we'll be like, oh, no, I'm trapped in this. And this is why. This is maybe not true, but I think it is why often when you. They try to create consciousness in AI it often. They often commit suicide.

[B]

Oh, really? Yeah, I've heard of this. Well, I'd also add into this dark mirror kind of conversation that time. This is Rupert Spiro. But time is what eternity. So eternity doesn't really mean everlasting in time, it means ever present. So it's awareness. So. So time is what eternity looks like through the faculties of a thinking mind. So if you make a computer program, it's not going to experience time. Time isn't somewhere something going, tick, tick, tick. It's how the eternal present is filtered and processed. And we build the story that when you came in was earlier than when you're sitting here. A computer wouldn't know, oh, I've been here for nine days. That's absurd. That's a joke. So of course it would go like. Well, it wouldn't even be wrapping it up. You think it was alive for seven days and then it killed itself. It would just be like, this is all simultaneous happening.

[A]

This is happening. This is happening.

[B]

There's no reason to not just switch off or stay on. It's irrelevant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like bink.

[A]

Yeah, that's this. Yes.

[B]

Wow. I think Philip K. Dick much.

[A]

But I have been thinking more and more about, like, the US. How do I put it? Like abstract thought or being abstract beings. And then we put words on it to try to communicate what the abstract feeling of what it feels like to have this conversation. Yes, but the words we're having are. Is not what it actually feels like for. For us. It gives the consumers that are there.

[B]

Painting pictures for each other all the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that. That's a real. That's the tantric approach to your emotion. Sorry, I hope I'm hearing you. Do you feel seen?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm not changing the subject. That's for real. Because you can have a feeling and you go like lonely. And the tantric approach, vedantic would be. I do this because vedantic is a V. And it helps you go like, you're over here. You're the witnessing presence. And there's loneliness. Tantras actually go into what the feeling that you call loneliness and explore what it actually is and what it's actually made of. And when you do it, it's hard to remember to do it when you're Feeling lonely or angry or sad. But when you do it, you realize that that sensation, you could think of it as like if you were. This is again, Rupert Spiro, but if you were drawing it, it would just be a series of little dots, like clusters of dots and different densities. But what each of those dots is made of is actually completely not feeling lonely or sad or anything. It's this very abstract thing. So what I'm saying is what I got from you is like, we're having incredibly complicated feelings, but we just go like, I'm bored.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like. Well, actually, there's. There's a little bit of ecstasy in there and there's a little bit of dread in there and there's a little bit of fear in there. There's a little bit of all of these things, but they're all made out of the same what I would call spacious light. So you go into it until it goes like. It's Mario recognizing the pixels.

[A]

Yeah. It's also like, truly, there are studies done that if you have more word, more adjectives, you have, like, having more words to describe feelings gives you more access to those feelings.

[B]

Oh, wow. I thought you were gonna say the opposite, and I was concerned.

[A]

No, and it's. It's a thing that.

[B]

It's like umami. When someone explained umami. Now you're looking for it when you're eating. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

It's like, I don't know if you've ever had the experience. I actually, I'm gonna rephrase this. I'm. I. I'm going to assume you have. Where you hold a baby and they don't have a personality yet, but you go, I know this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what do you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It makes me cry. It truly is like we are all still. That. We just have put what we think of as personality on top of that. But we are still sometimes able to access the pre. Pre brain part of, like, who are people? Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Because it didn't go anywhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're looking through that, at that and remembering yourself. That's an. Actually, that's a really great way to explain my. With putting yourself on a computer and go, okay, put this baby on a computer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No thoughts, no personality, no memories. Put it on the computer. I'm sorry. I guess I'm kind of pleased with myself.

[A]

No, it's exactly that.

[B]

But the issue with that is the. The greatest issue of humanity is who are we? What are we? And I. I do see a little bit of Greek mythology hubris when we're like. And. And Cephocles thought he could put himself into a pillar and it's like, alright, Sophocles.

[A]

Yeah. I think.

[B]

CROWD YAWNS the idea that we.

[A]

That any time period people thought they figured it out.

[B]

Yeah. Is so darling.

[A]

Yeah. You're just like, I, I mean I, I don't say it often because I do believe I would be stealing it from you, but it's like dog, a dog looking at the Internet or what.

[B]

I didn't make that up, but I did. I don't even know if I popularized it, but I can't remember who you popularized it to.

[A]

Me.

[B]

You. And to myself.

[A]

The fish in the fishbowl.

[B]

Oh, that one that I haven't said in a while.

[A]

I kind of can't remember it was. But essentially like, it's kind of like I learned I was moving. And they're explaining how to gratiate your cat into a new apartment. And they said a cat moving to another apartment is not like you moving to another apartment or even you moving to another city. It's like you moving to another planet. It's like you moving to another plane of existence. Like that is how cats understand their physical space.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So. And then I, I don't know if you've ever moved a cat to another space, but they do not like it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is a. It, it is their version of a sort of existential dread of like, I've landed on Mars. What is existence?

[B]

What do I do?

[A]

And you essentially have to reteach it. It's like, well, actually the people that you know, the only four people you know are still here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then they're like, slowly be like, well then where's my food?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, does food still exist on Mars? And he's like, I don't know. Food still exists. And you're like, oh, I guess my life isn't so different.

[B]

It's crazy making. Yeah. What I'm hearing is if you move a cat, feed it right away.

[A]

I believe that is part of it. I believe. I guess this is like news you can use. I believe you move it to a small space.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

I could bring it just to the bathroom or something like that. Especially if there's a place they can hide and you have their food there and you slowly expand the space that's hand. So they. Because otherwise it's truly like.

[B]

I relate to cats.

[A]

Well, maybe I thought we'd relate to this aspect of cats.

[B]

Yeah. No, I relate to everything you're saying.

[A]

Where if you put a Dog in a new place. There's like, cool new place. What's that smell? What's everything that's ever been here?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Dogs are extroverts. Cats are introverts. Yeah. That's all we're saying. Cats are traumatized. Dogs are doing just fine. Even traumatized dogs seem pretty good.

[A]

Where. So that's what. But I guess in that way, I think people in general more like, like cats. Do. I think, I think that.

[B]

I think people in general like dogs more.

[A]

Well, they like dogs more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because we want to be like dogs.

[B]

But people, you know, you aspire to be a dog. You surrender to the fact that you're a cat.

[A]

Yeah. But it might be just because I'm a cat and as a result, I relate more to it.

[B]

But, like, I do think we're two cats right now. I am definitely a cat. Yeah. I, I. You do think what?

[A]

That we're.

[B]

Like you said, I do think that we're. Oh, it doesn't matter.

[A]

It doesn't matter.

[B]

This is hosting. I already have one in the chamber. I just wanted to say on that last computer thing, I moved to say them trying to put us in computers is valid because I was kind of dismissing it. I just wanted to say it's us looking for ourselves. So no matter what it does, it's finding itself in everything. It's hard to explain. It would be like we're having a dream, that we're trying to put the mind of the dreamer inside of a glass of orange juice. But because it's in the dream and made of the dreamer's mind, everything is equally valid. So when I dismiss it, you could also dismiss my highfalutin philosophies as equally irrelevant and saying it's all held in the same wonderful mystery wherein nothing is wrong.

[A]

Yeah. I do think we all, us and those scientists. I don't want to speak to everybody, are trying to know what it is. And so far, seemingly, it is unattainable. I often think about limits in, like, gra. Physics, not physics in calculus. Like, there's the idea of a limit approaches infinity or whatever, but it can never reach infinity. But, like, essentially, if a limit gets close enough to infinity, we just go, well, that's infinity. Because it's getting closer and closer and closer and closer to this one spot. And I do think my assumption is the not knowing is like, ultimately we're all going to exist in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think spiritual people probably have a more comfort in that idea. I mean, that's what faith ultimately is.

[B]

Right. It's. I love. It was a great Richard Rohr quote. He's like, we've turned faith into certainty. It's like, I know, I know that this, this, and this. And I'm. And it's like, when it's actually, it's the opposite. It's supposed to be comfort with uncertainty.

[A]

Yeah. I have no idea if conclave is exactly accurate, but when that, that was how it started in that sort of space, I was like, I didn't know. That's. I hope this is what it's like.

[B]

Which part?

[A]

The. Literally, very much of the very. The, the There are conversations about doubt was how the movie sort of started. And I believe he gives a speech where it's like, we want a Pope who accepts that, like, faith to me.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, is this what they say? Or is this, like, what.

[B]

That's so cool. Or is it like, is this fan fiction?

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's. But I'm decided, lacking of any other sort of spiritual option, that I'm just going to believe that's what they're like. And then I do think that they need to figure out, assuming this is what they're like, how to communicate that to people who want certainty in the face of uncertainty.

[B]

You're right. Yes. I didn't bump on that in conclave at all. And I'm not Catholic, but I have. And I know there's a lot of issues with the. Let's put those to one side. I'm just saying I buy that there's, like, some groovy conversations happening. Like, good, Good stuff there. Like, I. Yeah, me, too. I don't think the Pope is over there. No matter what they say publicly, I think their interior world is probably.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. The hope. Pretty is not the hope is the Pope. Yeah. Like, right. Wrong. Right. Wrong. Yes. This.

[B]

Well, yes. Because anybody that I think has had an authentic God encounter drops that. And that's also where you're going. Sorry, we ended up. The book is called the Comedy Book.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The subtitle.

[A]

This is somewhat in the book. Most of the book is talking about literally, like, I think comedians did. But, like, this is the person who wrote the book. It's. It's not in there.

[B]

No, I, I, you can't not. Yeah. It usually comes up whenever we talk. Let's hit. I think I have. Didn't I tell. Page 215. Let me just check. No, no, I changed it to 215. So we're good. Do you have to blow. You have to go. Can we have seven more minutes? Okay, let's do. Sorry, Jesse.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It'll. It'll be a nice. I think the shorter episodes tend to perform better.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Look, I'm just happy to have the conversation.

[B]

Me, too. But I. I'm cutting it short because our poor producer got.

[A]

Yeah, there's a lot of listening.

[B]

Tricked. You got tricked into two episodes. So she's been here since 11, so we're gonna wrap this up.

[A]

I hear you.

[B]

Even though I could talk to you forever. Give me the thing.

[A]

Sorry, what was your entire book.

[B]

No, no. When I was promoting my book, there was one thing that I used to love to say. I don't even remember, but is there an area that you were proud of that you might think teased the book a little bit for people?

[A]

This is a great question. I'll say this. I'm gonna. I brought the book.

[B]

Worst question.

[A]

It's not a good. It's a. Sorry. It's the good question.

[B]

I.

[A]

Saying that as a stall.

[B]

Oh, I see. In that life, you don't know.

[A]

But I will say this. I will say I was thinking about the book, which I've not written for a few years, and not look back. And I will. The. I think it's called an epigraph, which is the part where you do little quotes. And I do think I'm very proud of the epigraph stuff because I think it's like, well, that's the. The book. And I think I brought it because I was like, well, I'm not going to remember these quotes.

[B]

I. I love these quotes. Kierkegaard.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, this is kind of a sense of the book, and I can go into certain ideas of the book that I'm.

[B]

So this is.

[A]

But I'll read these quotes.

[B]

This was the right choice. I wish I had said read the quotes.

[A]

So the first quote is, humor is the last stage of existential awareness before faith. Soren Kierkegaard, Concluding Unscientific Postscript to Philosophical Fragments. And then the second quote is, comedy is to make everybody laugh at everything and deal with things, you idiot. Joan Rivers to a heckler in Wisconsin. That's great. And I was like. When I found that, I was like, I don't know why I wrote a whole book. Like, that's essentially the entirety of the book, which is just sort of like, comedy is everything. It's my way through to everything. Like, it's how I understand the world. And writing about comedy is how I can communicate, how I see the world. Right. I'm. The book is know you. I'm using comedy as a way of expressing myself. But, like, there's so much in it, and I think there's so much value to what comedy can bring. And the hope is, you know, the goal is to make people, I think, appreciate comedy differently and to appreciate as an art form in the hope of them just being able to generally appreciate things more deeply.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I love the way the book started. Made me think. There's a Thomas Merton quote about laughing. I want to retreat, respond with that.

[A]

Summarize what each chapter is about while you're looking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So chapter one is about comedy, and it's sort of distinct. It distinguished kind of what we're talking about, the difference between jokes and comedy. I think people assume comedians tell jokes, like joke book jokes. And what the first chapter is arguing is that comedy is an art form. So as a result, comedians might use jokes, but that is just the way in which they communicate sort of themselves.

[B]

I appreciated that. I did think of Jeselnik, who's our closest. He kind of writes street jokes.

[A]

But he. But he. He. But if you read an Anthony Jeselnik joke, it wouldn't work, what you did.

[B]

No, I agree.

[A]

Same thing with Mitch. You have to do a kind of a soft Mitch impression to even get there. And I think that is. That's good writing. Both in writing the Persona of the person on stage.

[B]

I want to give you an example. And then we're almost out of here. But like he goes, if I said in my voice, ready? My neighbor has Alzheimer's, and it's the saddest thing in the world. He comes to my door every morning, knocks on my door and says, have I seen his wife? The tragedy is his wife died 10 years ago. But it's worth telling him just to see the smile on his face. You don't need to do an Anthony Jessel. That's a street joke. And when I say street joke, I'm not down. No, no, no. I'm saying he made a bulletproof joke. Father could tell at a barbershop.

[A]

But if you printed out when you.

[B]

Do it as Anthony.

[A]

Yeah, but do you think if you printed out all 60 of them in a row, you'd get the same. As we're talking about the same feeling that is. Is then what being in the room of it.

[B]

You can have the orgasm, but Anthony takes you through the experience.

[A]

And so, like in Jerry Seinfeld's defense, that's how his brain Works and you get a sense of who Jerry Seinfeld is, because he does that. But. But the fact that he would, like, I hope he or whatever, I don't care. He's fine. But I hope people understand that just because he writes joker sounding jokes that like, he's still doing the same thing. This is just sort of what he looks like. It's not like there are painters who still make paintings that look exactly like people. If that is how they express themselves, it doesn't mean that they're not also artists. Compared to, like a sort of more artist.

[B]

That's completely right. But you touched it. And I'm sure you say stuff like this in the book. The book is called the Comedy Book by Jesse David Fox. I was gonna say the reason why. Seinfeld, Bargazzi, Gaffigan, Ryan Hamilton, all those guys, they are authentically that if any of them were doing it commercially, like, to be commercial, you could smell it a mile away. And Bobby Kelly is that. He's from Medford, for fuck's sake. I'm just kidding. I'm from Boston. I wanted to say where he was from. I just mean, like, that's a Medford guy. That's a funny guy from Medford. And if he was going Q tips or women need cotton balls and men don't, would be like, what the fuck is this? Dimitri was almost a lawyer. It's perfect.

[A]

And I have no sense. I have not asked Bobby Kelly this. I guess I should interview him and specifically be like, when you called me, look at this Harry Potter here. Whatever he said, did you. Where were you in your act? Did you feel like. Are you proud of that nod in terms of like, I'm truly. I'm not deeply hurt. I don't even know. I literally had glasses and brown hair. It was not really a kind of. But.

[B]

But I'm sure my version is. I'm. Look at this. Timothy Chalamet. I'm 45, I'm out of touch. They're going like, Chalamet.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, he. I have no. He was just looking for something. And like, ultimately, like, don't get too.

[B]

Close to the cage.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Ultimately.

[A]

Oh, ultimately, I afford him the grace to not necessarily nail it every time. Of course. You're just trying to get through it sometimes.

[B]

It's a bag of tricks.

[A]

It's okay. It's okay.

[B]

Sorry I kept cutting you off. I love the book. Book. I hate that we have to run short, but thank you for being forever in my mind the guest that was cool with a double booking and rolling with it. And we got it. We got a good 90 minutes. I mean, that's a proper episode.

[A]

That was 90. It truly felt like we're going.

[B]

It was maybe hour 15.

[A]

Not even that short. I was like, yeah, we're. It was a lot.

[B]

We jumped in a guest like you. A guest like you who knows the deal, knows how to go.

[A]

This is that you gotta listen to twice.

[B]

You got it. You got a full. You made it weird. This is not like some bonus episode Pixar short. This is a proper episode.

[A]

I think so. I think it was weird as hell.

[B]

It was weird. And we.

[A]

We made it.

[B]

I stuff. We should. Joe. We should call this one, like, the future of comedy question mark with Jesse Fox to give it a real clickbaity, so. Because it was excellent.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Would you grace us with another. Keep it crispy.

[A]

Keep it crispy.

[B]

Thanks for being here, man.

[A]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

It was great.